This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:01] Ben Rimalower: Welcome to Cast Offs with Ben and Daniel. Today is a very special episode because I really feel it brings so many elements, things that we've been talking about, stars we've been discussing throughout the history of our pod. Canonically, they're our favorite stars. It all comes full circle today with the discussion of the greatest film of all time, The First Wives Club.

[0:44] Broadway Podcast Network: I'm literally doing co-schola and Broadway on Demand.

[0:49] Bernadette Peters: I'm your host, Bernadette Peters, and I'm here with my lovely co-host, Lorna Left.

[0:57] Lorna Left: Crack that shit.

[1:03] Bernadette Peters: But I will say I um every night this week I've been watching a different episode of Murder She Wrote. I realized I only like the episodes really that are set in Cabot Cove. And so anyway, I was watching one of those, and guess who showed up as the killer in one of the episodes working in a shoe factory?

[1:24] Bernadette Peters: George Hearn.

[1:25] Lorna Left: Oh, sorry.

[1:26] Bernadette Peters: No, but George Hearn, I'm sure he's in plenty. Um, although uh another one I watched, uh Lynn Kerryou was the killer, I believe.

[1:33] Lorna Left: You gotta butter both sides of that bread.

[1:35] Bernadette Peters: Right. So anyway, but Lorna was the killer. I could not have been happier. Um so anyway, with that said, hey y'all.

[2:15] Daniel Nolen: I have to say that I had to be dragged somewhat kicking and screaming. I really had to convince you on this one. Like, Ben and I basically had to go to friendship counseling to get over the drama of me not wanting to do this episode.

[2:35] Ben Rimalower: And I have to stand here with my hat in my hand.

[2:42] Daniel Nolen: With your tail between your legs.

[2:44] Ben Rimalower: My tail between my legs. I am so happy. Like, wait, have we said the title?

[2:52] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, you did say the title.

[2:56] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Can you imagine if we did like an hour-long episode where we never said the title?

[3:05] Daniel Nolen: And no one ever realizes it.

[3:07] Ben Rimalower: The thing is, like, okay, don't get me wrong, anyone out there clutching their pearls. I love and I wear Cynthia Pearls.

[3:15] Daniel Nolen: Oh, yes, there it is.

[3:17] Ben Rimalower: Always, always have loved First Wives Club. I saw it in the theater, and in 1996, I was a junior in college. And I was immediately—okay, just to set up my life a little bit. Junior year, I was directing the musical Ruthless for my college theater company, Bear Stage.

[3:40] Ben Rimalower: And it's just so like you, like Annie narrating the movie at the beginning of the movie, by the way, when she's like the year of walking on the moon, yellow submarine.

[3:50] Daniel Nolen: Me and my three best friends at college.

[3:52] Ben Rimalower: Well.

[3:52] Daniel Nolen: Totally, because the thing is, like, I was directing Ruthless, and Ruthless is an all-female cast, except for a man that plays Sylvia St. Croix. But I also added a female chorus to have because I had so many brilliant women who auditioned that I wanted to use them all.

[4:14] Ben Rimalower: I love a chorus, added on. And I was like a monster. You would have hated me so much, Daniel, because I had been like the black sheep, like ugly redheaded stepchild of the Berkeley drama department, my freshman and sophomore years. But second semester sophomore year, I started the student theater company and I directed Falsettos, and people freaked out over how great Falsettos was, even though I had no resources and no support.

[4:40] Daniel Nolen: And then I thought I was like finally like I was like the diva king that I had like always dreamed I would be. I remember reading an interview with George C. Wolfe where he said that his college years were his Eva Perón period. And that is very much where I was coming from.

[4:58] Ben Rimalower: And so directing Ruthless with this cast of women, I acted like an Arthur Lawrence or Jerome Robbins kind of tyrant. Oh god. And the thing that I espoused with them all was this idea of the diva that I put them through like diva training because it was all about like them being divas, you know.

[5:18] Daniel Nolen: This is so like Jack McFarlane, the McFarlane method.

[5:23] Ben Rimalower: This was like a ribbon. Oh no, it gets worse. Do you know what one of my philosophies was that I especially shudder to ask what?

[5:31] Daniel Nolen: Volume over pitch.

[5:34] Ben Rimalower: That scans 100%. So anyway, First Wives Club, and this was a moment in my life where I had completely just like had no more interest in this hundreds and hundreds of Broadway cast recordings I had been meticulously collecting for at that point like 10 years. All I cared about was diva solo albums, and the number one that I was most obsessed with at the time was Bette Midler, you know.

[6:05] Daniel Nolen: Literally the number one album that I was most obsessed with at the time was Bette Midler's album Bette Midler. And that's her second album, right? Where she sings Skylark and I Shall Be Released and all these great tracks.

[6:16] Ben Rimalower: But anyway, so I was—and I had just been really obsessed with the speaking of Bette Midler Diva Las Vegas concert. Oh no, no, that was later in the year. But I was anyway, I was deep, I was deep into Bette. And so I went to see this movie, and I was—oh, and also Ruthless, I was really pro-excited about the title song in Ruthless that's sung by the three lead female characters at the end.

[6:41] Daniel Nolen: And so I saw First Wives Club about these three women, including Bette Midler, and it just like hit me where I lived. And I was obsessed with it, and I based my staging of the title song in Ruthless on the "You Don't Own Me" that they do at the end of First Wives Club. And I loved it, loved it, loved it, loved it. And I saw it, I think a couple more times in the theater, and I bought the VHS tape and wore it down, knew every word by heart.

[7:11] Ben Rimalower: And the thing is just that that movie was so important to me in that moment in time, and then was so seminal for me. It was such a part of who I am that it was never far from my heart. Yes. And so, in a way, I've kind of taken it for granted. And we—I happened to have watched it, Daniel and I watched it together with some of our Fire Island housemates last summer.

[7:11] Daniel Nolen: Last summer.

[7:39] Ben Rimalower: And so it felt so fresh on the tip of my tongue that I didn't have any desire to watch it again because I had felt like I had just watched it. I didn't feel like there was anything new for me to discover about it, you know. And I think I kind of in a way took for granted that our audience would feel the same based on the fact that you are so much younger than me and have an equally close personal connection to the movie.

[8:07] Daniel Nolen: And I found that to be true of many gays in that generation after mine that I've been friends with, who also have like a really close personal connection to this movie, you know.

[8:19] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, totally. And so to me, it just kind of felt like in this way, like too obvious or something, you know. Um, yeah, as you said, it's not very far off the beaten path, which is so true. But it was just one of those things I love. We talk about this movie so much, and I talk about it just in my daily life so much that I just—it's almost like I need to like exercise the First Wives Club demon out of me, you know.

[8:47] Daniel Nolen: You know, it's like I need to talk about it so we can move on with our lives, you know, because I feel like it's just this specter just kind of hanging over everything. In my, you know, the Bette Midler of it all. I mean, not to mention Goldie. Then with Bette comes the whole Marc Shaiman, who's also involved in this movie and in very, very many of the other things that we talk about, including most recently Jackie's Back.

[9:14] Ben Rimalower: Jackie's Back and the Jennifer Lewis. And after watching this movie last night, I went on this deep YouTube journey, all these interviews with the ladies, and I saw Bette on Rosie, and they talk at length about their love of Jennifer Lewis and Marc Shaiman, and Bette tells about her history with both of them and how they worked with her for so long.

[9:33] Daniel Nolen: Here's the thing, though, we're not exercising it. This is what I realized watching it. Like we are now actually doing an important service because do you know how low its rating is on Rotten Tomatoes?

[9:47] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, it's like in the 50s or something, right?

[9:49] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, I didn't realize that it was so poorly received because I remember that it had been a big hit.

[9:54] Ben Rimalower: Well, yeah, it was the week it was released, it was opposite some like die-hard movie or something, and it was still number one at the box office, made millions and millions of dollars. It was a huge, huge hit.

[10:06] Daniel Nolen: But yet they would never let them make a sequel of it.

[10:10] Ben Rimalower: Well, that apparently there's now in more recent years, there's been a lot of starts at that project. And according to Goldie, the problem most recently with the sequel was that they hadn't figured out what it should be about yet, and that the scripts that they had to work with were not good enough.

[10:28] Daniel Nolen: But apparently now there is support for them, or there has been. Here's the thing though: this is our important public service. It is time to take the narrative away from the patriarchy that wrote this movie off when it came out in 1996. And it is time for us to firmly place it in the pantheon of certainly the iconic gay classic movies that have stood the test of time and have been influential for generations and will continue to be popular.

[11:01] Ben Rimalower: You know, I mean, in a way, part of what I think prevented maybe the critics from getting on board, besides, frankly, their own misogyny, is that The First Wives Club is a depiction of the 90s in such a candy-colored way that it almost feels more like a movie of the 80s, you know?

[11:25] Daniel Nolen: And so 90s. It's like I just could not get over that watching it again. But it treats the 90s in this way that in the 90s, people loved to treat the 80s, but they were not really ready to talk, to look at their own decade that way.

[11:43] Ben Rimalower: When you were like, I think a film critic or like an art student or like an intellectual in the 90s—not you and me as these like nascent gays—you, I don't even want to know how old you were in '96, but like me at like age 20, you know, not for us, but for other people, and it's certainly within the patriarchy. I think that you wanted the 90s to be about something that was edgier or more political or, you know, frankly more diverse, possibly, like something that had more of a message, something that was grungier.

[12:22] Daniel Nolen: I don't think that they were ready to accept this sort of like kind of innocent portrayal of the 90s as this just kind of like glossy commercialized era.

[12:38] Ben Rimalower: But now, to anyone watching it in 2020, of course that's what the fucking 90s were. I don't think there's any beef about that. And I think that you watch this and it just completely works as a picture of that time. And so in that respect, I think if you and I went back and I read these bad reviews that the movie got, and they're just missing the forest for the trees.

[13:03] Daniel Nolen: Whatever they're complaining about fails to pay heed to the fact that you have these three incredible movie stars. I mean, Bette Midler and Diane Keaton and Goldie Hawn can each be called many things, but one thing that they are more than actresses, more than singers, more than whatever you want to call them. They are legitimate movie stars.

[13:29] Ben Rimalower: And they're movie stars who have succeeded with big commercial movies that were terrific commercial projects. That, you know, it's one thing to say the word commercial as a criticism of some piece of trash that doesn't work, you know. But Bette Midler and Goldie Hawn and Diane Keaton have each at several points in their career starred in big box office blockbusters that were great movies. Maybe they weren't artistic films, although maybe some of them have done artistic films too. But they have starred in movies that are everything you want a commercial movie to be, right? That were vehicles for them and their movie star personas. And what this movie does so incredibly well, possibly better than anything before or since, is it manages to be a vehicle for each of them in their unique individual movie persona, all at the same time, so complementary to each other.

I mean, it's just a satisfying thing to experience. There are so many moments where I wrote down like this just works like gangbusters. I mean, it's like a perfect, it's like Neapolitan ice cream or like each of the flavors they're bringing to the recipe just combines to create the most delicious, delicious finished product. Um, and it's funny you said that about the 90s because I've seen this movie dozens and dozens of times. I mean, this is up there for me with, you know, Some Like It Hot, What's Up Doc, these movies that I've seen probably in the 50s and 60s of times, and but this time I was watching it, you know, I was taking notes and literally smoke was like rising from my notebook because I was scrawling so fast.

Um, but I realized for me, not only is it such a great movie and so well loved, um, and just so funny, and like you're saying, the star power and the star quality that they bring to it, each with their own unique offering. But there's a bit of nostalgia in it for me as well, because the whole 90s thing, I was in '96, I was in second grade, I guess.

[15:41] Daniel Nolen: Wow.

[15:42] Ben Rimalower: And so not only was this, you know, a movie that appealed to me, even though I did not even, I don't even know if I knew what gay was at the time. Like I don't remember when Ellen's Time cover came out, but that was when I started for this. Okay, so that's when I figured out what gay was when I saw that Time cover. So at this point I didn't know what gay meant. And it's kind of like, you know, a lot of gays say with The Wizard of Oz, this movie really connected with me and spoke to me, and I was obsessed with it, but I couldn't really pinpoint why, aside from the fact that I just thought it was entertaining. But um, I had taken my first Bette journey with Hocus Pocus, I guess, which was a couple years before that.

And I had loved Bette and Sarah Jessica Parker in that movie. Especially Sarah Jessica. I was so obsessed with her, you know, I had a crush on her, but I also wanted to be her. Her little song in Act Two, it's "Come Little Children." I was always obsessed with that, and I would rewind the tape over and over and watch her sing that. And of course I thought Bette was so fabulous and funny. So, oh, and I knew Goldie, of course, because my parents, when we were little, we would always watch Seems Like Old Times and Foul Play, Overboard. I loved Goldie. So when First Wives Club came out, I remember my mom going to see it at the theater, but she wouldn't let me go with her because she said it was an adult movie.

I think she even told me it was like rated R, and she was like, it's just not appropriate for kids. I was devastated. I just wanted to see Bette on the big screen so bad. So then when it came out on videotape, I remember because I remember renting The Very Brady Sequel and the preview for First Wives Club was at the beginning of that tape. And so I knew it was out on video. And so I did my research and I saw that it was only PG. So I told my mom, I was like, Mom, this is only PG. There's no way you can stop me from seeing this. And she was like, okay, fine. So I remember going to Rave Review, which was our video store downtown Tecumseh, Oklahoma.

[17:51] Daniel Nolen: Oh my god.

[17:51] Ben Rimalower: And renting First Wives Club. And I went back in my parents' bedroom and watched it by myself, and I finished it, rewound it, and watched it immediately again. Wow. So I was, of course, obsessed with the ladies, and I, and of course, going through it this time, there's so many things like misheard lines, things that I didn't understand at the time. I literally don't think I knew what lesbian meant.

[18:16] Daniel Nolen: Wow.

[18:17] Ben Rimalower: I did not know what that meant. But I loved this movie so much that the end, you don't own me, of course. I was already, I died for a musical number. So that spring at the church talent show, my friend Ryan and me, who also he was a devotee of the Church of Bette for the Church Talent show. We somehow convinced our parents to let us dress up basically in drag with wigs, and I went to the Salvation Army downtown and got us white outfits. Uh, and we dressed up as Bette and Goldie. We did not have a Diane, sadly, and performed "You Don't Own Me" with microphones at the Church Talent Show. Amazing. And my mom has video of it, and I watched it the last time I went home. And I have to say, like, I was giving it, honey.

[19:06] Daniel Nolen: I need to see this.

[19:07] Ben Rimalower: Yes. I always ask my mom to send it to me, but she hasn't yet.

[19:10] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, how convenient.

[19:14] Ben Rimalower: Um, well, and it's funny to think about Sarah Jessica Parker right on the cusp of Sex in the City, you know.

[19:14] Daniel Nolen: You know?

[19:20] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah. Like she had like outgrown her like juvenile status, like in the 80s, you know.

[19:26] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, like the girls just want to have fun.

[19:29] Ben Rimalower: You know, they tried to kind of make her like a Hollywood leading lady, and you know what she did that movie with Indecent Proposal, is that the one? Or no, she's in the other one, the dumber one, like Honeymoon in Vegas. No, what am I thinking about?

[19:43] Daniel Nolen: Oh, uh, Leaving Las Vegas.

[19:43] Ben Rimalower: Honeymoon in Vegas. You know, like so that was cute, and then there was like, you know, they were giving her some stuff, and she was like showing she could do stuff, but I don't think they were like, you know, they weren't quite making her like the next Meg Ryan or anything.

[19:57] Daniel Nolen: Right.

[19:58] Ben Rimalower: Um, you know, and then this was sort of like, you know, this and Mars Attacks, where she sort of had these like funny kind of like, you know, bimbo kind of like bit part, not bit parts, but you know, featured roles in these like big casts. But um, you know, then Sex in the City made her just this player, you know.

[20:15] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[20:16] Ben Rimalower: Um, but of course she's so good in this. But shall we dive in?

[20:19] Daniel Nolen: Let's dive in.

[20:20] Ben Rimalower: I really want to go through, I'm so glad I really want to go through this one scene by scene.

[20:25] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, because there's just so much to say.

[20:28] Ben Rimalower: Um, one more thing I wanted to say before we dive in.

[20:31] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[20:32] Ben Rimalower: Um, the soundtrack to this movie was I think one of the first cassettes I ever purchased. It was so funny. We actually, my family and I were going to a screening of The Wizard of Oz on the big screen, and we stopped for breakfast before that, and they were doing this Christmas giveaway, this raffle drawing. I remember that day I won a Walkman, a cassette Walkman, and of course, this was around the same time of First Wives Club, and this was the tape I would walk around my house listening to. Of course, you don't own me over and over and over. That was the only track I really listened to.

[21:07] Daniel Nolen: That's what else was there besides Billy Porter's song?

[21:12] Ben Rimalower: Now I love Sisters Are Doing It for Themselves.

[21:15] Daniel Nolen: Oh, right, because there's right.

[21:17] Ben Rimalower: I've forgotten there's movie soundtracks work. There's actually Wives and Lovers. Like there's real songs on it.

[21:22] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[21:24] Ben Rimalower: So it's not a cast recording. But this was like my first taste of, you know, I was obsessed with that song and the musical number, and so I learned the choreography, and that's what inspired, you know, the church performance. Anyway, so with that said, the movie starts with um and what's the song called?

[21:42] Daniel Nolen: Uh, I think it's called Wives and Lovers.

[21:44] Ben Rimalower: It's Wives and Lovers.

[21:45] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[21:45] Ben Rimalower: Wives Should Always Be Lovers 2 is the hook.

[21:48] Daniel Nolen: Yes.

[21:49] Ben Rimalower: That iconic sound at the beginning. Uh, the Paramount logo comes on, and then of course we see the credits, uh, Scott Rudin, of course, uh, Balls of Pure Gold, the pop art title sequence, which is a little hint at a lot of the aesthetic of the movie.

[21:53] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[21:53] Ben Rimalower: And then, of course, just like in Jackie's Back, bombarded with just a plethora of stars that are in this, you know, whether they're playing bit parts, supporting roles, or cameos, there are so many famous, oh yeah, famous actors and personalities in this film.

[22:27] Daniel Nolen: Totally.

[22:28] Ben Rimalower: So then we get to the graduation, and I always forget like Diane's kind of the central character in this. She's the narrator, uh, she's kind of the one who brings everything together. It's her idea. It's very um Desperate Housewives, like what's I mean, well, I guess if it were really Desperate Housewives, it would be Stockard Channing narrating.

[22:48] Daniel Nolen: But Diane Keaton has a Mary Alice quality about her.

[22:53] Ben Rimalower: That's actually really. Maybe it would have been better if Stockard would have been narrating.

[22:57] Daniel Nolen: That would have been kind of fab.

[22:58] Ben Rimalower: Or depressing.

[22:59] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[23:00] Ben Rimalower: I mean, this is the first note I had. Well, no, well, okay. This is the first, let's just say it's the first note I had. Um, that like the I what I was thinking about, like watching it last night that I don't think was part of my thought process back in the day with it, was like Stockard gives them the pearl necklaces, but a bunch.

[23:22] Daniel Nolen: And I'd like to, no, it wouldn't.

[23:24] Ben Rimalower: Um, you know, and like but like she was was she were they four friends who all grew apart and then the three of them got back together because Stockard died, or was Stockard always a little on the outside? I mean, I know she was a little on the outside because she's a depressive and all that jazz.

[23:46] Daniel Nolen: Um and she didn't sing the way they did, although arguably Stockard sings as well as you know, some of them.

[23:51] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Um, but uh, I mean, whatever. But uh, but or I it's just funny, like was like that she gave them the necklaces. Like, I don't know. I just I don't maybe it doesn't matter at all. I'm not sure why I'm hung up on this question, but I want to.

[24:07] Daniel Nolen: I want to say, I see what you're saying, and there are several parts in this film, like the necklaces. Uh, there's a lot of parts throughout the film that they allude to the fact that it's Christmas for no reason.

[24:19] Ben Rimalower: I think it's because there was a lot of this film that was cut in the end. It was like over three hours long, and people said it was so horrible. It was so bloated and didn't make sense. And so they had to cut a lot of this film and really trim it down to the final product we see now.

[24:36] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[24:36] Ben Rimalower: So I think a lot of these details, like the necklaces, probably played a bigger role in the original cut. It was probably maybe more scenes or more dialogue having to do with that. I have a note somewhere I can't find it now, but I'm sure we'll get to it. Because in my reading about it while I was watching last night, I uh of course on pause, uh, some well-known actor had a cut scene that I was like, oh, I want to see that.

[25:00] Daniel Nolen: Oh yeah, it was uh it's um Jon Stewart.

[25:03] Ben Rimalower: He played Elise's younger boyfriend.

[25:08] Daniel Nolen: Yes, yes, yes, thank you.

[25:10] Ben Rimalower: And apparently those all those scenes were cut because that was like a B plot line, and it really just made everything too long. Um, so the flashback college scene is first, and this is truly a lip sync for your life performance. I mean, I didn't realize this at the time, but now of course we know all the girls who are wonderfully cast, they look exactly like their older actress counterparts.

[25:34] Daniel Nolen: Um, they're basically lip syncing to audio that Bette, Diane, and Goldie all recorded because that's actually their voices being used.

[25:43] Ben Rimalower: Amazing. I actually didn't know that, or if I did, I forgot.

[25:46] Daniel Nolen: Um, they do a great job.

[25:48] Ben Rimalower: They also some of them are so like the Goldie, um, really has Goldie's face.

[25:54] Daniel Nolen: She does, and I recognize her from somewhere.

[25:56] Ben Rimalower: That girl's been in other stuff. Like if they hadn't, if like I think I when I put this on, there was like, oh, right, it starts with their graduation, and then I was like, why the fuck isn't it Kate Hudson? And then I'm like, that face is why it's not Kate Hudson.

[26:10] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, exactly.

[26:11] Ben Rimalower: And um, and the Bette has like such really like such a Bette attitude all the way. Although the funny thing is that the TV show The View started shortly after this.

[26:22] Daniel Nolen: Oh really, wow.

[26:23] Ben Rimalower: And I remember thinking, like, oh, Joy Behar, I've seen her because she played young Bette Midler in First Wives Club. And then and then I bought the VHS tape, you know, around that time, and I was like, oh no, that's not Joy Behar.

[26:35] Daniel Nolen: Joy Behar could play Bette.

[26:37] Ben Rimalower: And what's funny now I feel so stupid because I literally wrote down the one that plays young Stockard does an excellent job capturing the way Stockard talks.

[26:49] Daniel Nolen: How do you do a Stockard Channing impression?

[26:51] Ben Rimalower: But she really nails it. So then, okay, then we get to the Stockard of it all.

[26:55] Ben Rimalower: And I used to think this. This should have been nominated. This scene, yeah, totally. I used to be obsessed with this scene as a kid. I thought this was just the epitome of glamour.

[27:04] Daniel Nolen: Yes.

[27:05] Ben Rimalower: Oh my god. Yes. And the fur coat on the penthouse terrace. Throwing newspapers up in the air. I mean, there's like an Elizabeth Taylor quality to this scene. It's like Elizabeth and all those old melodramas. And then she asks, you know, the maid, the housekeeper, to send these final letters. And then she waited shot of her stepping up on that bench, putting that drink down. I have such vivid memories of first seeing that shot as a kid.

[27:37] Daniel Nolen: Oh my god.

[27:38] Ben Rimalower: Um wow. Uh so this was your first suicide. Um I just like I I have the exact same experience watching it that I did back then, which is just that she is so brilliant. I mean, yeah. First of all, just like the way she her hand shakes, like someone like it's so fully realized. And the way that she waves, she gives like kind of like a bitch wave to like a woman on the life cycle or the stairmaster or whatever.

[28:08] Daniel Nolen: I mean, Stalker just plays this scene for real.

[28:12] Ben Rimalower: I mean, you know, you could say what you want. I mean, I love this movie so much, and I want to reclaim it from those hater critics that just didn't get it. But like, you know, I still understand that it's still maybe not on par with some of the most like artistic filmwork of some or or you know, just like whatever. But like when Stalker is doing her scene, it absolutely can hold its own with any film ever, you know.

[28:38] Daniel Nolen: Totally.

[28:38] Ben Rimalower: And no, and just her choices, like the way she flicks her cigarette off the balcony and then just kind of stares off into space, and you know it's gonna happen. It's like I mean, it's yeah, she's gonna be. I don't know if Stockard ever was suicidal in her life, but I do know that she has taken pills and had too much to drink in the morning and stood on a penthouse terrace in a fur coat with a cigarette. Like she is this moment is not like something she had to like research.

[29:09] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, yeah.

[29:10] Ben Rimalower: She was it was it was method acting, hon. And also I'd have to speaking of movies of the 90s, that the woman that plays her maid Lucy is Aida Lenares, who also was sorry, the woman that plays her maid Teresa is Aida Lenares, who also played the maid Lucy in Clueless, who when she's like, my dress is at the dry cleaners, and she's like, Okay, I call them.

[29:38] Daniel Nolen: I mean, last last week's episode with Dublin Zotrop, we were talking about his brilliant post about the ladies of the hours trading cards.

[29:46] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[29:46] Daniel Nolen: This is the deck of cards I would want even more, would be the ladies at the First Wives club. Because not only would we get, you know, all the leading ladies, but we'd also get these ancillary ladies like the maid, Teresa, yes, and the lady on the Life Cycle.

[30:01] Ben Rimalower: Daniel, don't even catch it. You and I are doing this. We're selling it on Etsy. This is our new like money day job. It's like copying. Copyright, copyright right here. We're copywriting it on air.

[30:12] Daniel Nolen: Absolutely.

[30:14] Ben Rimalower: Okay, so uh Cut to Diane. Cut to Diane and the voicemail from Eileen.

[30:22] Daniel Nolen: Oh my god. I mean, if you're talking about the cards, surely, surely. I mean, I think, in some ways, even more than Stokert, even more than Maggie Smith, Eileen might be the fourth principal character in this movie.

[30:38] Ben Rimalower: And this was her last film performance before she died. Uh, I mean, just as I it's funny because I had it going back to me in my moment of seeing this movie and being obsessed with it when it came out, directing Ruthless. I had watched the films that were the inspiration because Ruthless is a takeoff. The musical Ruthless is a takeoff on these different classic movies, including uh, well, Gypsy, but also um uh All About Eve, and also um Valley of the Dolls, and most prominently as a plot, it is a takeoff on the bad seed, in which Eileen Heckart plays a very important role.

[31:18] Daniel Nolen: So uh I just was having a deep moment of discovery of her that has never left me.

[31:22] Ben Rimalower: And it's amazing when you go back and watch The Bad Seed, how little Eileen actually changed in those years. And my big mistake is that the universe gave me this moment of inspiration of finding Eileen in the Bad Seed and in the First Wives club. And about two years later, I was living in New York City, and Eileen was starring off Broadway in the original production of Kenneth Lonergan's The Waverly Gallery.

[31:50] Daniel Nolen: And I did not go see it.

[31:52] Ben Rimalower: And then I eventually saw the play when it was done on Broadway last year, starring amazing Elaine May in that role.

[31:59] Daniel Nolen: That's right.

[32:00] Ben Rimalower: But it is really a great regret of mine that I didn't see Eileen in the original because I knew how wonderful she was from this movie, where she's really I mean, like soccer, Eileen is never as hilarious and crazy and over the top as she kind of is. It's always for real. Everything that she says.

[32:22] Daniel Nolen: And sh I mean, there are so many lines, wonderful, wonderful lines that she's given, and she delivers them to perfection.

[32:31] Ben Rimalower: And not and not for nothing. And it's a skill that she is allowed to have because she's one of the greats of the old school. We would not tolerate this from anybody else. But whatever pace the scene is at Eileen will just grind it to a halting hall.

[32:50] Daniel Nolen: And take her fucking sweet ass time.

[32:52] Ben Rimalower: Sweet ass time, honey. And it is all for the better.

[32:56] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, 100%.

[32:58] Ben Rimalower: Um, okay, so then we meet another lady, uh, Chris, Diane's daughter. And like I said, this was the first time I ever heard uh the term lesbian.

[33:07] Daniel Nolen: I did not know what that meant.

[33:09] Ben Rimalower: And Daniel, you know what, that is not as much a reflection of how young you were when this came out. As you pointed out, Ellen had not come out yet. This movie was actually on the other side of that cultural divide when gayness became ubiquitous in pop culture in America.

[33:27] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[33:27] Ben Rimalower: And I think that something I realized watching this movie last night, and it's probably part of why people like me and even you, maybe on a subconscious level at your age, part of why it meant so much to us was that it was actually really wonderful the way that this movie handles this issue.

[33:46] Daniel Nolen: This girl coming out to her mom is handled so casually, you know.

[33:52] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that is a huge step because there had been gay representations in pop culture, cop pop culture up until this moment, but they were always heavy-handed. And that's not even criticism of them, because so much, I mean, certainly in the 80s, you know, it was just so shocking to even have that because if you go back before the 80s, they were only ever there as the butt of a joke, you know.

[34:19] Daniel Nolen: Certainly in anything mainstream at all, you know.

[34:22] Ben Rimalower: Although I will, I mean, speaking of Eileen, who was uh a prominent guest star in Mary Tyler Moore, there is that Mary Tyler Moore episode where uh Phyllis's brother is gay and Phyllis doesn't know it, and in the end, like the final uh moment of the episode, Rhoda's like, oh, he's gay, didn't you know? And then it's like cut to the credits.

[34:40] Daniel Nolen: So, like there was these really female led, you know, comedies that uh even back then were kind of uh breaking this mold and and addressing these issues in a casual way.

[34:52] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[34:52] Daniel Nolen: Um but this well, this is I didn't know that, but but he but I mean that's that's something that was an afterthought a little bit at the end of the episode, you know, that they didn't rub your nose in it the whole time.

[35:02] Ben Rimalower: Probably a lot of people who are watching it might have also not realized it until she said that, you know. Um, whereas this is clearly gonna be a plot point in the movie, and uh it it is so casual.

[35:14] Daniel Nolen: And and she is so it's not about her having problems as a lesbian or anything going on in her life that is at all in friction.

[35:23] Ben Rimalower: And she tells her mom with such confidence and indeed chill, and and Diane's reaction to it is absolutely great. I mean, she's befuddled in the Diane Keaton way that she deliciously is befuddled about.

[35:37] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, befuddled is a good word.

[35:38] Ben Rimalower: So many things in her life, but she's nothing but loving and accepting and supportive, you know.

[35:45] Daniel Nolen: And um, it's uh it's just wonderful.

[35:48] Ben Rimalower: It's really wonderful. And um, and also it's just uh it's it's great because you watch this scene and every moment of it down to the interior design, the production design of the kitchen.

[36:04] Daniel Nolen: I wrote down I love this kitchen, but it's it's one in a long line of fabulous kitchens in Diane Keaton movies.

[36:12] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, and fabulous clothes. And I have to say, uh Diane in this scene, she's wearing these high-waisted pants that like basically go up to her armpits. And I feel like she's wearing clothes from her own closet, which I know she famously does on films.

[36:25] Daniel Nolen: Well, if she isn't, then there are things she would have wanted at her own closet that fit the production design of the movie and also her personality.

[36:33] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[36:34] Daniel Nolen: She definitely had a hand.

[36:35] Ben Rimalower: I mean, the the the glasses, I know they're not.

[36:38] Daniel Nolen: That's what I'm getting at.

[36:39] Ben Rimalower: In this scene, you know, we haven't seen Bet or Goldie yet. And we are right now in a completely successful Diane Keaton vehicle. That is in no way compromised by the fact that these other people are gonna be coming and sharing equal billing in a minute, you know.

[36:55] Daniel Nolen: Yes, exactly.

[36:56] Ben Rimalower: Um, there's this shot of the three of them at the premiere, and Diane is still wearing those same glasses, same hairstyle. So this is yeah, this is just Diane in her world.

[37:05] Daniel Nolen: But I mean, and to a lesser extent, that can then be said, even fashion wise for Goldie and Bet too, you know.

[37:10] Ben Rimalower: And it's like part of what was so wonderful, I think it was a year or two after this when they presented together at the Academy Awards.

[37:17] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[37:17] Ben Rimalower: And, you know, and it's it's like in a way, they're always um they're they're such a perfect trifecta.

[37:27] Daniel Nolen: And you know, they they they each have their own brand that fits so complementarily with the other two.

[37:37] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yes, and I uh uh Diane, whereas Diane though, I feel is so Diane in this movie, and even Goldie playing a little bit more of a diva than I'm sure she is in real life.

[37:48] Daniel Nolen: I do feel like Bet is definitely they they they make her dowtier than she is and more normy.

[37:56] Ben Rimalower: You know, I feel like in real life, Bet, you know, at the time she's she had the blonde hair, obviously this is a wig. But you know, they make her kind of a normal frumpy housewife. Whereas in real life, I feel like that is just like glamorous.

[38:08] Daniel Nolen: But the thing is, but we that's that's because we have information.

[38:11] Ben Rimalower: I mean, this fits the persona Bette Midler plays in movies. It's just not her persona as a diva star. As opposed to Goldie and Diane, where their on-screen persona is more interchangeable with sort of their star persona.

[38:26] Daniel Nolen: Yes, exactly.

[38:27] Ben Rimalower: Um, but that that's that's more specific to Bett's career, too, you know.

[38:30] Daniel Nolen: But also, I mean, we haven't like necessarily gotten there yet, but you know, it talks in terms of who plays it for real.

[38:39] Ben Rimalower: I think that for sure, if it on that spectrum, the bottom of the barrel, only above Elizabeth Berkley, maybe would be Bette Midler.

[38:50] Daniel Nolen: I mean, I there's moments in this movie where she actually reminds me of Lorna Luft.

[38:55] Ben Rimalower: Like it's just, I mean, I love Bet and she's fabulous in this movie. But like when Bet gets broad, Bet gets cartoony. And that's a lot of those moments for sure.

[39:07] Daniel Nolen: You know, and that's some, and you know, it's obviously Bet is given the broadest assignment.

[39:13] Ben Rimalower: You know, Diane never gets cartoony like that, but on the other hand, like Diane's comedy at its broadest is still subtle in comparison to Bett's.

[39:22] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, you know.

[39:23] Ben Rimalower: Um, and Goldie's maybe somewhere in the middle on that scale, but nonetheless, I mean, Bet will just make faces that, you know, if Angela Lansbury thought of them, she would have rejected them.

[39:36] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[39:36] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, exactly. Bet goes there, you know.

[39:39] Daniel Nolen: I mean, the things Bette does with her eyes, it's it's truly incredible.

[39:44] Ben Rimalower: I mean, she does these little squints and then she does this thing where like she doesn't move her eyebrows, but she just kind of like opens her eyes, really like flashes her eyes really quickly. I can't describe it any other way.

[39:56] Daniel Nolen: And that's like a trick that she learned.

[39:58] Ben Rimalower: It's a trick that she's learned and has practiced and honed down to a strip. The word for that trick is sh shtick.

[40:06] Daniel Nolen: Shtick, yes.

[40:07] Ben Rimalower: I honestly I feel there are moments in my own performing, not that I'm a performer on the scale of Bet by any means, but I feel that I do that kind of mugging. And I actually had a moment watching this where I was like, maybe Jews just can't really act.

[40:23] Daniel Nolen: No, I mean, I don't I because I've also noticed it, uh, as I told you, I'm uh in a deep Marilyn Monroe place right now. So I've been watching a lot of Marilyn movies, and that's what Marilyn did too. It's like she had all these tricks she would do with her eyes to like, you know, make love to the camera or whatever. And I feel like that is an old school trick on film to do, and I feel like Bette picked it up somewhere along the way.

[40:46] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, it's just like, you know, Goldie's son is as movie star as you could want her to be, but she doesn't quite like go for like some of those like almost two-dimensional moments.

[41:00] Daniel Nolen: Yes, you know. So anyway, going into the Goldie part.

[41:04] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[41:04] Daniel Nolen: So, um, okay, so then we go to Elise in the chair with Rob Reiner. And I feel like each lady is given maybe a couple, but uh each lady I feel like is given a really great monologue that we still quote, uh, years after the fact. And I feel like this is Goldie's 100 monologue, you know, um, when she talks about ladies in Hollywood, you know, there are three ages babe, district attorney, and driving Miss Daisy.

[41:32] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[41:33] Daniel Nolen: And also I think that we need to give credit where it's due here, because you know, now in the era of Real Housewives and everything else that we live in, you know, some of this is so just like everywhere you look that like we kind of take it for granted, these jokes about like Botox and all that shit. But like this was like a little bit, I mean, in fact, these injectable fillers were still something of a new fad at the time. You know, you know. And like it was actually kind of brave for Goldie to, with so little vanity, embrace this thing that was actually not all that different from her true life, you know.

[42:15] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[42:15] Daniel Nolen: Um and uh and do it so mercilessly and just go for the comedy. But by the way, for real, I mean, when he tells her she's an alcoholic, I looked in Goldie's eyes in this scene, and I felt like she was playing that moment for real.

[42:34] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[42:34] Daniel Nolen: She was playing a human being who may or may not be an alcoholic, but definitely drinks too much and is already aware of it and doesn't want to be told that by somebody. She does not want to hear that. You know, but also is like in the doctor's chair and listening to good advice from somebody whose job it is to give it to her. You know, it was layered and it was full of human feeling.

[42:57] Ben Rimalower: And it was subtle because it was not what the moment stopped and had to then become all about. The moment was just sort of a brief transition from one topic to another, you know, as well as it should be within the script. But like Goldie filled it with the full human experience, and it was really it's so engaging because it actually, I mean, in a way, more even than Diane, at this point in the movie, I care about Goldie the most.

[43:26] Daniel Nolen: And it reminds me how this point, you know, I'd grown up on Goldie Hawn a little bit, not like you. I mean, I had seen Foul Play. I don't think I had seen Seems Like Old Times until you and I watched it last summer. But if I had watched it in the 80s, I'd watched it once and forgotten about it, you know. I mean, the movie that I loved Goldie Hawn in growing up was Overboard and also to a lesser extent Private Benjamin.

[43:52] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[43:53] Daniel Nolen: And I think there might have been a couple other Goldie Hawn movies that I was like really into at the time, but maybe not. You know, she was almost more of an entity that I was like very familiar with, but she was, you know, she was not something that I was like deeply connected to.

[44:08] Ben Rimalower: And um, uh, and then this movie came out, and I was already obsessed with Diane Keaton because of Annie Hall, and not to mention the fact that growing up, movies like Baby Boom.

[44:21] Daniel Nolen: Oh, Baby Boom, yeah.

[44:22] Ben Rimalower: I had watched Baby Boom many more times than I watched Overboard, you know.

[44:26] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, and um, and I think there were other Diane Keaton movies too. And Bette Midler, I mean, Beaches was my movie, get the fuck out of town, don't talk to me.

[44:31] Ben Rimalower: Beaches was my movie.

[44:39] Daniel Nolen: Beaches was my movie, Beaches was my movie, and several other Bette things along with Beaches, you know. And then at this point in my life when First Wives Club, First Wives Club came out, I was in a very, very deep Bette Midler journey of Bette Midler the diva, Bette Midler the singer, you know.

[44:55] Ben Rimalower: Yes, yes.

[44:56] Daniel Nolen: So I was going to this movie already hook, line, and sinker, you know, just like suckling the teeth of Bette and Diane, you know, really and truly. I mean, not to mention I was going through a big The Godfather moment at this point in my emotional film watching journey, and like Diane was someone I loved in that, you know, right up there with Lorraine Bracco and everybody else, you know.

[45:18] Ben Rimalower: But I love The Godfather.

[45:19] Daniel Nolen: I recently watched those.

[45:21] Ben Rimalower: So great.

[45:21] Daniel Nolen: But Goldie was almost more a curiosity to me from that. And she also, she went many years and has since, uh, was she didn't make a lot of movies.

[45:32] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[45:32] Daniel Nolen: And when people talk about Goldie Hawn's sort of cultural contribution, they would talk a lot about Laugh-In, which was not my era, not my thing, you know. You know, so I was in a way kind of rediscovering Goldie Hawn when this movie came out in 1996.

[45:47] Ben Rimalower: And I remember very distinctly falling for her and walking out of this movie theater changed.

[45:56] Daniel Nolen: And if anything, more in love with Goldie than the other two. And then, uh, not long after this is when the Woody Allen movie Everyone Says I Love You came out.

[46:06] Ben Rimalower: Another movie.

[46:07] Daniel Nolen: Another movie where Goldie sang. And you know, that movie wasn't that nearly, nearly, nearly as good as First Wives Club.

[46:15] Ben Rimalower: But that movie's so crazy.

[46:17] Daniel Nolen: But it completed my journey of just being like Goldie Hawn is my diva. I mean, I can't tell you how many times I cried into my pillow, almost literally, about the fact that she wasn't gonna be in the movie of Chicago.

[46:32] Ben Rimalower: You know, and how disappointed I was when I finally got my hands on a VHS of Goldie and Liza. What's it called?

[46:40] Daniel Nolen: Liza and Goldie Together at Last or whatever it's called.

[46:43] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[46:44] Daniel Nolen: And just how what a disappointing stinker it is. I mean, we should definitely QuaranStream it sometime. It's like w the those ladies deserve our attention even for their worst accomplishments, but that is among their worst accomplishments, you know, which was disappointing because I so wanted there to be a fabulous variety show where Goldie, like, you know, does a Sondheim medley, you know, and this wasn't it.

[47:08] Ben Rimalower: Anyway, all just to say that I was watching this falling in love with her all over again last night.

[47:14] Daniel Nolen: Right. She's a brilliant comedian. I mean, and that's how she started out, as we know in Laugh-In. But in this movie, especially, she just has such great reactions and just some of the colors.

[47:24] Ben Rimalower: Comedian is the right word.

[47:26] Daniel Nolen: When she's been called comedy, it's the next scene, it skips over Bette. But when Goldie with the insane, insane duck lips, fresh out of the injection, when she goes to the newsstand when she finds out that um Cynthia died, and she says to the news guy, "Morning, Mohammed."

[47:44] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, morning, Mohammed.

[47:46] Daniel Nolen: That is, I mean, it's I mean, that's that's film history.

[47:50] Ben Rimalower: I mean, that's film history.

[47:51] Daniel Nolen: That's yes, uh, so let's go there. So then, of course, we uh meet Bette, who all we find out about her really is that she likes to snack. And she has a son named Jason, which it just kills me. I mean, a Jewish mother with a son named Jason.

[48:07] Ben Rimalower: It's just the barber of it all.

[48:08] Daniel Nolen: Well, also the son named Jason planning the bar mitzvah, it's very falsetto.

[48:12] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, totally.

[48:14] Daniel Nolen: Um, so then we cut to the funeral where Elise shows up with Ganilla, aka Maggie Smith, who is not that old here, but like when I first saw this movie, I thought Maggie Smith was like surely near death.

[48:27] Ben Rimalower: Like, I thought Maggie Smith was like 90 or something.

[48:30] Daniel Nolen: I mean, Maggie always looked so old to me, and now of course she's still old, like playing, you know, uh this 90-year-old baroness or whatever on her.

[48:39] Ben Rimalower: It's funny now because like at the time, I don't know if Maggie must have been like in her 60s, you know, and like now she's 90 and she's kind of still playing the same age.

[48:51] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, it's like I feel like she really did play the same type for three decades.

[48:56] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[48:56] Daniel Nolen: Um okay, so then of course the funeral happens, and a lot of great lines. I feel like um, honey, she's a quilt. I feel like that was like a Paul Revinik edition, maybe.

[49:06] Ben Rimalower: Oh, I didn't know that he punched this up.

[49:07] Daniel Nolen: Because I was about to say we have to pay respect that the script is by Robert Harling, who wrote uh Steel Magnolias.

[49:14] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, Steel Magnolias.

[49:15] Daniel Nolen: And um Soap Dish.

[49:17] Ben Rimalower: And Soap Dish.

[49:18] Daniel Nolen: I mean, and this is just, you know, it deserves to be honored at least in as high terms as those movies are. Because even just when you think about the way that this film just clips along. The fact that we have now met all three women and now they're gonna run into each other.

[49:36] Ben Rimalower: It's done the right amount of time and energy is spent in the perfect degree with each other.

[49:42] Daniel Nolen: Introduction. So then, and I don't know if this is if that was a Paul Redding thing, but I think I have read somewhere that he punched it up, but he didn't want credit.

[49:50] Ben Rimalower: Sure.

[49:50] Daniel Nolen: By the way, gay, another gay uh classic moment. The fact that the funeral home, Frank E. Campbell is where Judy Garland famously was uh laid to rest.

[50:00] Ben Rimalower: Oh, I did not know that.

[50:02] Daniel Nolen: I didn't even know that was like a real funeral home. I thought that was just a name they made up.

[50:06] Ben Rimalower: Okay, so then afterwards they all run into each other.

[50:09] Daniel Nolen: I just love when Bette is like uh lunch, and then she's like, I have a car, and Bette just says, a limo.

[50:17] Ben Rimalower: I mean, I it's I see this is where Bette gets to be a little too much for me when she like goes into like a like hammy, like clowny voice.

[50:25] Daniel Nolen: I like it.

[50:26] Ben Rimalower: Like that moment, that moment is is is sort of like okay, because like maybe the character is like doing a little bit of a bit, but I just feel like so often she like does a funny voice instead of like finding a truthful way to get the same laugh.

[50:40] Daniel Nolen: Yes, in the next scene, I see what you're saying.

[50:42] Ben Rimalower: In the next scene with her like trying to quote like play drunk, that's that gets a little uh too much for me.

[50:50] Daniel Nolen: But I also have to say before we get too far into that scene, also, that when they first order their drinks, oh my god, oh my god, the timing the timing is so perfect, okay? It's because in the order of them ordering them, which is Diane and Bette and then Goldie.

[51:07] Ben Rimalower: Do you want to play one of the parts and I'll do the other two?

[51:10] Daniel Nolen: Okay, why don't you be you start it out and then I'll go next and then you finish it.

[51:15] Ben Rimalower: Okay, so you're so you're Bette, and I'm Diane and Goldie.

[51:18] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[51:19] Ben Rimalower: Okay, so you be the waiter.

[51:20] Daniel Nolen: Can I get you a drink?

[51:21] Ben Rimalower: Uh can I get you any drinks?

[51:23] Daniel Nolen: Oh, so Diane's, you know, she does her day.

[51:25] Ben Rimalower: Well, Virgin Mary.

[51:27] Daniel Nolen: Bloody Mary, vodka rocks.

[51:30] Ben Rimalower: Now, this thing so perfectly like it just encapsulates like the complimentariness of these women as these characters.

[51:38] Daniel Nolen: And it, if anything was ever a fucking musical comedy song lyric for three women in a musical.

[51:47] Ben Rimalower: It was these three drinks ordered in a row.

[51:50] Daniel Nolen: And it made me just want to say to all the different artists who have failed in creating the musical version of First Wives Club, which continues to be stalled and look more hopeless than ever at ever making it to Broadway.

[52:05] Ben Rimalower: I want to say, shame on you.

[52:09] Daniel Nolen: This movie cries out to be the biggest musical comedy hit since Hairspray since The Producers.

[52:17] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[52:18] Daniel Nolen: Fuck you and the horse you rode in on and your big bag of bullshit for not doing this right.

[52:24] Ben Rimalower: I mean, these a lot of these famous lines from this movie could literally just be lifted and uh copy pasted into a track list.

[52:32] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, like a literal running list of the songs.

[52:35] Ben Rimalower: Um also I have to give a little plug to our uh former guest Faith Prince, uh, who we did an episode with back in the day, and she talks a lot about her process in being cast as Brenda in the First Wives Club musical, and it's a really fun story about her audition, so go back and listen to that if you haven't.

[52:53] Daniel Nolen: And Faith is great casting, and there have been some great people. I know Mary Testa played that part in another incarnation.

[53:00] Ben Rimalower: And um there was somebody else that I thought was like really interesting that has done it.

[53:05] Daniel Nolen: Um, you know, of course, when the movie first came out, I used to have fantasies about Patti LuPone and Bernadette doing the musical version.

[53:12] Ben Rimalower: Um yeah.

[53:13] Daniel Nolen: Although one thing I realized watching this now, and it's in a way a heartbreaking lesson I've had to learn about. Well, first of all, now they're all too old, but uh, it's one thing that I've had to be heartbroken about many times over the years about Patti, is that Patti would not be good as Brenda.

[53:31] Ben Rimalower: Patti actually would be much funnier as Elise, even though that's not who we want to think of her as.

[53:37] Daniel Nolen: I think, I don't know.

[53:39] Ben Rimalower: I think Patti would be good as Brenda.

[53:41] Daniel Nolen: I I don't know.

[53:42] Ben Rimalower: I don't think so.

[53:44] Daniel Nolen: But anyway, now they're all too old. But it really, and honestly, speaking of Marc Shaiman and speaking of Hairspray, the team that should have musicalized this.

[53:53] Ben Rimalower: Yes, 100%.

[53:54] Daniel Nolen: Marc Shaiman writing music and Marc Shaiman co-writing lyrics with Scott Whitman, yeah. That is who should have done this.

[54:00] Ben Rimalower: And the problem is that they the team that actually did write the songs was uh, well, I don't even know if they wrote them. I think it might have been all pre-existing songs, which is even worse. But it was Holland Dozier Holland, the famous songwriting team that wrote so many Motown hits, especially for the Supremes.

[54:18] Daniel Nolen: Although they didn't write "You Don't Own Me," which should have been the first uh warning sign.

[54:23] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Like, why take this fabulous musical comedy and saddle it with either a the undue responsibility, the burden of having to be a jukebox musical?

[54:38] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[54:38] Ben Rimalower: Which then has a bad idea. I'm not saying jukebox musicals are all bad, but it's hard enough to put a good show together to tie those songs together. This movie, this story deserves songs that are tailor-made for it.

[54:52] Daniel Nolen: Tailor-made, yeah.

[54:53] Ben Rimalower: Or if it was original material by them, why not let this story have a chance to be written by people that are honed veterans of musical comedy, not a team of pop songwriters that have to learn how to do it or possibly never will?

[55:08] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[55:10] Ben Rimalower: Anyway, off topic. Well, so this scene, you know, looking at it through the lens of at the time, like, you know, for me and a lot of other gay millennials, this is like our sacred text. And I'm like, was this scene integral to the now uh cliché yet still very rampant and important uh practice of gay brunch? Like, is this scene like something that we saw back in the day and we're like, oh, that's fabulous. And now over 20 years later, like we're like going to brunch with our girlfriends and drinking every weekend. I mean, was this something we saw, and it's now translating to like a cultural practice that we all engage in because of this film?

[55:53] Daniel Nolen: I don't think that's the case. Um, but I was thinking, like uh I kept thinking like, what are the other more recent like drunk lunches, like in move drunk lunches or drunk lunches that you're gonna be able to do?

[56:07] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I was trying to think about that too.

[56:09] Daniel Nolen: That have like been inspired by this, you know.

[56:11] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[56:12] Daniel Nolen: Because this, I mean, this scene, it's it goes on a while and it cuts several times to where it's obviously later in the day to the point where people have cleared out. Diane is now not drinking a virgin drink, she's actually drinking wine, white wine.

[56:26] Ben Rimalower: Um I didn't even catch that.

[56:28] Daniel Nolen: So smart.

[56:29] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. So Bette and Goldie are both sloshed. I mean, the drunk, I mean, I think Goldie's brilliant. I think Bette's is a little heavy-handed with like her suddenly getting sleepy. But um, Goldie plays drunk so well, and she does brilliant cigarette acting throughout the whole.

[56:40] Daniel Nolen: She does.

[56:49] Ben Rimalower: Working with the prop of the cigarette, no one is better than Goldie. And my very favorite moment comes at a later scene, which we'll get to. But um, this is that where I feel Bette gets her first really great monologue because she does that thing about um he starts working out, he gets an earring. I say, Morty, what are you? A pirate? What's next? A parrot? And all of a sudden, I'm a big drag, and I'm holding him back because I won't go rollerblading.

[57:16] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[57:17] Ben Rimalower: And then she says this line uh what's her name? She says, Shelly, Shelly the Barracuda.

[57:22] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[57:22] Ben Rimalower: And when I was little, I did not know what she was saying. I didn't know what she meant. And I thought, like, Shelly the Barracuda, like that was Shelly's last name. Like I thought she was giving like her full name. And when I was little, in my weird, you know, obsession with this movie, I would take my little tape recorder and I would record myself basically reciting the entire screenplay.

[57:45] Daniel Nolen: Oh my god, I want that tape.

[57:46] Ben Rimalower: Which I wish I had. But I would always get to that line, you know, just reciting it from memory, and I would always make up some last name for Shelly because I didn't know what Da Barracuda, what she was saying.

[57:59] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[58:00] Ben Rimalower: So that's uh Bette's monologue, and then another line I love when she says, You're lying through your caps. Okay, blah blah blah blah. Well, that's I mean, here's a famous one, just when Diane is like, no, and we're and lesbians are great.

[58:15] Daniel Nolen: Oh my god.

[58:16] Ben Rimalower: Nowadays, yeah, lesbians are great nowadays, and Bette and Goldie, their look to each other, and Goldie's little like puzzled look is divine.

[58:26] Daniel Nolen: Comedic brilliance.

[58:28] Ben Rimalower: Another comedic brilliance is when we next scene cut to Diane in Dr. Leslie Rosen's office, Marcia Gay Harden looking fabulous.

[58:37] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[58:37] Ben Rimalower: Another brilliant scene, um, get angry Annie. It's okay. I mean, even this stuff, it's like, you know, I mean, now, and and this was not groundbreaking in terms of its portrayal of psychotherapy, but this sort of like comedic treatment of that stuff and like the self-help movement and all that, it was kind of newish then, you know?

[58:59] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[58:59] Ben Rimalower: And now it seems like such a cliché, you know. But it's like so satisfying to go back to because go back because we get to see Marcia Gay Harden like literally say the number one on the nose, like cliché things that could be said, and it's like so earned in this story, you know.

[59:17] Daniel Nolen: Grow from love.

[59:18] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, screw the world. Uh okay, so, and in this scene I have to say, you know, we all like to think, you know, who we are and in the grand scheme of things, but more than anything in this scene, I'm like, oh wait, I am an Annie, aren't I?

[59:31] Daniel Nolen: Oh my god.

[59:32] Ben Rimalower: Okay, so then the next scene I love, it's them in at the conference table, the divorce uh legal conference discussion, whatever. And do you recognize the lady who is playing Bill's attorney?

[59:47] Daniel Nolen: Yes, it's Jay Smith Cameron.

[59:50] Ben Rimalower: Who plays Jerry in Succession?

[59:52] Daniel Nolen: Yes, yes.

[59:53] Ben Rimalower: That's that's how I who I recognized her. And yeah, again, playing the same type of character she plays in Succession.

[59:59] Daniel Nolen: I'm glad you bring that up because she's a New York theater actress. Um, cool. And uh and she's married to, is it David Lindsay-Abaire, some playwright.

[1:00:07] Ben Rimalower: Oh, um, but she had just sort of started making her mark, like in New York theater in the 90s. Um and of course, Victor Garber was not that famous at the time that he was playing Bill in this. But it's like not only is this an all-star sort of cavalcade of these like um, you know, theater actors featured people, it's so many New York theater actors. It's really incredible.

[1:00:30] Daniel Nolen: And it reminds me of two much less successful movies from the same era. One was speaking of Paul Rudnick, the movie version of Jeffrey. Um the other is there was I don't know if you've seen this movie because it was really bad, but it was a James LePine directed this uh comedy starring Nathan Lane and um oh god, now I can't remember who the other star was, but it was called Life with Mikey.

[1:00:57] Ben Rimalower: Oh, is that the one with Michael J. Fox?

[1:00:59] Daniel Nolen: Yes, Nathan Lane and Michael J. Fox, yes.

[1:01:01] Ben Rimalower: Yes, I have seen that. I like that movie.

[1:01:03] Daniel Nolen: But you go back and watch that, and the whole cast is all like this, it's people from Falsettos and Into the Woods, and like, you know, it's all James LePine's like New York theater like repertory company, essentially, you know.

[1:01:16] Ben Rimalower: Well, I don't know if that still happens nowadays, but reading all the articles about this movie, they said it was a very New York uh film, New York set, you know, everything, all the casting creative were people or the cast, I guess.

[1:01:30] Daniel Nolen: But the thing is, it happens way more nowadays because now so many movies and TV shows are filmed in New York. That started in the 90s with Sex and the City and The Sopranos. Um I guess you know, maybe Giuliani had made some deal to encourage production or whatever, you know, but everything changed. Now there's so much stuff filmed here, and now everybody, even if you're like a chorus dancer in a Broadway show, chances are your agent is is sending you on auditions or you're submitting self-tapes to do film and television work. That was not so common in the 80s and 90s and before that. So it was actually like really unique. I mean, for me, as a theatrical, you know, a theater-obsessed uh person as a show queen in 1996 to see this movie and see all these faces and names that were familiar to me from my obsessing about Broadway was crazy. That was something that never happened.

[1:02:29] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[1:02:31] Ben Rimalower: Okay, so moving along. Oh, in that scene, my favorite cigarette moment, Goldie does, uh, whenever she says we're uh we require half the assets or whatever. And Goldie does this really shocked, taken aback expression, but she has a cigarette in her mouth, so she does the look, but then she lights her cigarette before and takes it out of her mouth before she speaks. It's so brilliant.

[1:02:54] Daniel Nolen: Um okay, then we cut to Duardo and Brenda at the store. Another uh famous scene with our first glimpse of Sarah Jessica Parker, where uh she comes out and Brenda, why don't you try these on in your size?

[1:03:13] Ben Rimalower: Now which I didn't I didn't catch that as a kid either. I never knew what she was saying.

[1:03:15] Daniel Nolen: Oh, I so did.

[1:03:17] Ben Rimalower: And I whatever I said about Bette like doing like her shtick, SJP like deserves the chance to do it to Bette here, and it is beautiful.

[1:03:27] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[1:03:28] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, SJP. I mean, speaking of shtick, she does so many little things that we think of as Carrie things now, but like her little SJP shriek and squeal, she drops those throughout the movie, and it's it's just so on the nose.

[1:03:41] Daniel Nolen: Um okay, then we get to the scene. It's actually you raise an interesting point about this movie in general, is that I don't know if there was a lot of improv or it's a testament to Robert Harling or the director Hugh Wilson, or to things that Paul Rudnick added, or how it came to be. But not only is this such an impressively perfect vehicle for the three ladies, it actually like across the board, these people are really you know, Maggie Smith and Sarah Jessica Parker are absolutely given dialogue that allows them to shine in their things.

[1:04:18] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, well, it's perfect casting. I mean, if you know, we're talking about our um deck of cards or whatever. If if uh Brenda, Elise, and Annie are like and Stockard are like the kings, you know, whatever, then I think the jokers would have to be, and then maybe the men or whatever are the queens. I don't know, we'll have to figure it out.

[1:04:41] Daniel Nolen: But the jokers are definitely Marcia Gay Harden, Sarah Jessica Parker, Elizabeth Berkley, and then uh who's I don't know who the fourth one would be, but they're all you only get two jokers.

[1:04:54] Ben Rimalower: Oh, sorry, I meant Jax, I meant Jack's.

[1:04:56] Daniel Nolen: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1:04:57] Ben Rimalower: Totally. Um, so the three of them, maybe then maybe the other one would be like uh Duardo or someone, but uh they are you know the other women or whatever, but they're each given such a specific uh character with a specific type.

[1:05:15] Daniel Nolen: Totally.

[1:05:15] Ben Rimalower: And they they each do it so I mean, even Elizabeth Berkley, I think she's so brilliant.

[1:05:19] Daniel Nolen: Totally.

[1:05:19] Ben Rimalower: She's wonderful in this movie. And by the way, I mean, Elizabeth Berkley's character is interesting because she's not a bitch.

[1:05:24] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, she's just bubbly and innocent.

[1:05:29] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, it's a yeah, this very kind of up and coming young star, very Marilyn. Um, and then of course Timothy Olyphant, who is the director of the film. Now he's a famous TV star.

[1:05:39] Daniel Nolen: So over the top.

[1:05:42] Ben Rimalower: When he says, I mean, it's it's it's earned because it's an it's it's an important, it's it's not important is maybe heavy-handed, but it's it's a valid uh and only slightly exaggerated parody of how insane it is the way Hollywood rejects women over 35. But that thing calls her a Jurassic flesh bag.

[1:06:05] Daniel Nolen: In a wheelchair, and the cryptkeeper.

[1:06:08] Ben Rimalower: The crypt keeper. I think what we're going for grotesque.

[1:06:13] Daniel Nolen: And she's like, What?

[1:06:15] Ben Rimalower: That scene isn't is so fantastic. And and Elise's reaction where she's like, How do you see her? And then he says that thing about Jurassic Fleshback and Jarra, just so taken aback, and the way she kind of sips her drink is so brilliant.

[1:06:30] Daniel Nolen: Then, of course, the next scene, after uh Brenda has a quick scene, and then we see Elise at the bar, which is one of the greatest scenes in the history of cinema. I mean, I think it's fair to say that when the Will and Grace writers were created between Karen and Smitty.

[1:06:50] Ben Rimalower: Smitty.

[1:06:50] Daniel Nolen: It I mean, it 100% owes a great debt to this scene.

[1:06:55] Ben Rimalower: This scene walked so Karen Walker's scene could run.

[1:06:58] Daniel Nolen: Totally.

[1:06:59] Ben Rimalower: Um this is the Monique's mother, and and again, Elise Goldie's comic delivery is so on point. I don't even know if this was, I mean, I assume it was it was planned, but it seems so spontaneous whenever she's uh slurring her words doing this brilliant scene where she says, uh Shelley Winters is Monique's mother, Angela Lansbury is unique's mother, and she drinkingly says unique instead of Monique.

[1:07:27] Ben Rimalower: Oh my god, even hearing you recreate it just like takes me back to the comedy.

[1:07:33] Daniel Nolen: She plays drunk so well, and then of course she says the Sean Connery is Monique's boyfriend.

[1:07:39] Ben Rimalower: 300 years old, but he's still a stud.

[1:07:42] Daniel Nolen: I feel that I walked out of the movie theater in 1996 and having just seen this once, knew this scene by heart.

[1:07:50] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:07:51] Daniel Nolen: Uh yeah.

[1:07:52] Ben Rimalower: Truly memorable.

[1:07:54] Daniel Nolen: This is like a Jerry Herman song, but as an acting scene.

[1:07:58] Ben Rimalower: Yes, this would be another great uh number for Elise for the musical.

[1:08:02] Daniel Nolen: Oh my god.

[1:08:03] Ben Rimalower: Called Monique's mother.

[1:08:04] Daniel Nolen: Okay, so then, okay, the next scene is By the way, another fabulous New York actor, friend of the pod, Edward Hibbert as the bartender.

[1:08:13] Ben Rimalower: Sensational.

[1:08:14] Daniel Nolen: Oh, yes, yes.

[1:08:15] Ben Rimalower: Wait, he's friend of the pod?

[1:08:17] Daniel Nolen: Yes.

[1:08:18] Ben Rimalower: Oh, cool.

[1:08:19] Daniel Nolen: Well, um, he's a friend of mine.

[1:08:20] Ben Rimalower: I don't know if he's ever listened to the podcast.

[1:08:23] Daniel Nolen: But it's so funny because I looked him up and I wrote down his name, but I didn't know who he was.

[1:08:27] Ben Rimalower: He was the original Sterling uh in Jeffree, speaking of Paul Rudney.

[1:08:32] Daniel Nolen: Oh he plays some role in the movie, actually, too.

[1:08:35] Ben Rimalower: Um, and he uh well he's done many, he was in Noises Off with Patty on Broadway.

[1:08:41] Daniel Nolen: And one of the greatest things I've ever seen, I MC'd right after Elaine Stritch died, they did this 54 below piss tribute to Elaine Stritch.

[1:08:50] Ben Rimalower: And I was the master of ceremonies, and um Christine Ebersol was in it, and um Beth Levil and Hunter Ryan Herdlika and um a bunch of great people, Clea Blackhurst, and anyway, and Edward Hibbert.

[1:09:06] Daniel Nolen: And Edward Hibbert sang Why Do the Wrong People Travel?

[1:09:10] Ben Rimalower: And let me tell you, it was a completely uh fitting tribute to Elaine's performance.

[1:09:18] Daniel Nolen: I mean, it was Oh, is that on YouTube?

[1:09:20] Ben Rimalower: I don't know if it is.

[1:09:21] Daniel Nolen: It's so divine.

[1:09:23] Ben Rimalower: And he um he also told a really hilarious story of writing a limo with her, which I can't even remember, but it we we gotta have him on the pod at some point.

[1:09:32] Daniel Nolen: He's a screamingly funny person.

[1:09:33] Ben Rimalower: Anyway.

[1:09:34] Daniel Nolen: Okay, so like I said, each lady gets a really great monologue.

[1:09:37] Ben Rimalower: This next scene is Annie's monologue when she's in the hotel room with Aaron, and then Marsha Gay shows up.

[1:09:44] Daniel Nolen: And just the build of this scene and uh the final uh climax explosion.

[1:09:53] Ben Rimalower: This is so stupid, but I and I said I wouldn't do this, and we could just skip little things so we don't get bugged down, but I can't let us skip the fact that Eileen Heckart has the line, you have no feeling for noodles.

[1:10:06] Daniel Nolen: Yes, yes, I mean to criticize.

[1:10:10] Ben Rimalower: It's not that funny of a line, but she makes it like the funniest thing that ever happened.

[1:10:15] Daniel Nolen: You're so true.

[1:10:16] Ben Rimalower: I can't believe I forgot that.

[1:10:17] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[1:10:17] Ben Rimalower: I hate to criticize you, but you have no feeling for noodles.

[1:10:20] Daniel Nolen: But 12 times slower.

[1:10:23] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah.

[1:10:24] Daniel Nolen: And then and then Diane just says, thanks, Mom.

[1:10:26] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:10:27] Daniel Nolen: So good.

[1:10:28] Ben Rimalower: Okay, so go on.

[1:10:29] Daniel Nolen: Go to the hotel.

[1:10:30] Ben Rimalower: Okay, so no, then she Diane has her big, this would be her big number in the musical called I'm sorry.

[1:10:36] Daniel Nolen: And this also makes me miss Pixie Aventura because famously she performs lip synks this monologue in her show.

[1:10:42] Ben Rimalower: So great.

[1:10:42] Daniel Nolen: But this is, you know, this moment happens, and then whenever she yells, slams the hotel room door after a wonderful, wonderful reaction shot from Marsha Gay Harden.

[1:10:55] Ben Rimalower: Slams the door and walks out to the elevator, the music changes, and this is the but still moment of the show.

[1:11:04] Daniel Nolen: Because the whole mood changes.

[1:11:05] Ben Rimalower: You're suddenly like really, really heartbroken for Annie, like the one lady who still had a romantic heart and was holding out for her future with her man.

[1:11:16] Daniel Nolen: And now we know she's in the same boat as the other ladies.

[1:11:20] Ben Rimalower: Um by the way, Marcia Gay Harden, it must be said, part of what's so brilliant about her performance in this is that in addition to being like this, like you know, bitch other woman who's like, and like, you know, in some ways, I mean, not in some ways, it's just unconscionable that you know she's in this situation with her her client, although in that very Freudian way, she's like, You're my therapist, and she's like, I'm a woman.

[1:11:45] Daniel Nolen: I'm a woman.

[1:11:46] Ben Rimalower: But she also, there's very much the layer of her being proud of Annie's progress.

[1:11:52] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, yeah.

[1:11:53] Ben Rimalower: She's allowed to get angry.

[1:11:55] Daniel Nolen: It is absolutely not bullshit.

[1:11:57] Ben Rimalower: Like she truly is like, I mean, in an egotistical, selfish, narcissistic way, but she truly is like very pleased with the work she's made with this class.

[1:12:09] Daniel Nolen: You know?

[1:12:09] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:12:10] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, totally.

[1:12:11] Ben Rimalower: And Marcia is so good.

[1:12:13] Daniel Nolen: Okay, so then the next scene, you know, like I said, the mood changes.

[1:12:15] Ben Rimalower: It's this really s uh kind of touching montage of all of them reading their letters from Cynthia that they just got in the mail.

[1:12:24] Daniel Nolen: This we also get a great Eileen line on such pretty stationary.

[1:12:29] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[1:12:29] Daniel Nolen: I mean that's actually like a running thread, because then later she says you could you could write them a nice note.

[1:12:36] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah.

[1:12:37] Daniel Nolen: She's just so focused on the details.

[1:12:39] Ben Rimalower: It's just so real.

[1:12:40] Daniel Nolen: I mean, that super reality that generation, you know.

[1:12:43] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, 100%.

[1:12:44] Daniel Nolen: Um, so then we go to, I couldn't figure out whose house this was, but then later I realized it was Annie's house, Annie's living room that they're sitting in, talking about they're trying to one-up each other about who's had it the worst.

[1:12:57] Ben Rimalower: Uh, and I have to say, the interior of Annie's house looks a little like an olive garden, which I don't mind.

[1:13:04] Daniel Nolen: But this this scene, this bet gets into a little bit of what I think you're talking about.

[1:13:08] Ben Rimalower: She gets a little cartoony with her little monologue about I want him dumped by the L'Oreal crotch jockey uh in front of everyone in the Western Hemisphere.

[1:13:17] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, she does her eyes, it's it's a very big and broad.

[1:13:20] Ben Rimalower: Then another great scene, we go to the gay bar, where there is not just one, but two ladies, two ladies at the theater who get wonderful, wonderful moments in this scene.

[1:13:33] Daniel Nolen: Mm-hmm.

[1:13:34] Ben Rimalower: One, of course, is Lea Delaria.

[1:13:36] Daniel Nolen: And the other one, I didn't even realize this until I watched it recently.

[1:13:41] Ben Rimalower: I didn't realize who this was.

[1:13:42] Daniel Nolen: It's Debra Monk.

[1:13:44] Ben Rimalower: Wonderful.

[1:13:45] Daniel Nolen: At the bar with Brenda, and she she sees a picture of Morty and says her wonderful line, she's butch.

[1:13:50] Ben Rimalower: Hilarious.

[1:13:51] Daniel Nolen: I also have to say the thing I realized watching this last night that had never occurred to me in the past was that the reason Elise Elise, the reason Elise Goldie gets so into dancing with the lesbians is not just because she's a fun girl and she's a diva, she likes attention, but also because she has been made to feel bad about herself and feel unattractive.

[1:14:13] Ben Rimalower: And the lesbians making her feel hot is so something she's you know thirsty for.

[1:14:19] Daniel Nolen: She needs that validation, yeah.

[1:14:20] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I never understood.

[1:14:21] Daniel Nolen: That's just another way that the script just like is just like so dramaturgically sound, you know.

[1:14:27] Ben Rimalower: Well, and and like you were saying with the treatment of the lesbian scene earlier, this scene really treats the gay bar and and the idea of women hitting on Goldie.

[1:14:38] Daniel Nolen: It treats it so wonderfully because Goldie's not like weirded out by it or she's not grossed out.

[1:14:43] Ben Rimalower: She actually loves it and is, you know, it cuts to her later, like dancing with them and having a great time.

[1:14:49] Daniel Nolen: And I think as a kid, seeing this scene, I mean, obviously, I I must have kind of used my context clues to figure out what was going on.

[1:14:58] Ben Rimalower: I think that was good for me to see this representation of like, oh, this is just a fun club, and like if if Goldie is enjoying it, it must be okay, you know.

[1:15:08] Daniel Nolen: I think this might have been the first time that I was aware of Lea Delaria.

[1:15:12] Ben Rimalower: Uh yeah, me too.

[1:15:14] Daniel Nolen: Um, and then I became a big fan of hers because she did Out of Town just like two years after this.

[1:15:19] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, love her so much.

[1:15:21] Daniel Nolen: Um also I I as much as I don't feel that Patty would be good as Brenda, um Bet has a very patty moment when they have to do what I'm gonna say.

[1:15:34] Ben Rimalower: Come on, honey, my place.

[1:15:37] Daniel Nolen: She's with she's with me, babe.

[1:15:40] Ben Rimalower: She's with me, babe.

[1:15:42] Daniel Nolen: It's so patty.

[1:15:43] Ben Rimalower: I loved it.

[1:15:44] Daniel Nolen: And then she says she has Sicilian, a Sicilian uncle.

[1:15:48] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:15:48] Daniel Nolen: Oh, that's that's another thing I was thinking, like Sicilian, it's that's so patty.

[1:15:53] Ben Rimalower: And the whole like mafia thing, which that whole storyline I could not get behind.

[1:15:57] Daniel Nolen: But um anyway, so then we go after this scene, we go to Elise, like reclaiming the assets or whatever in Bill's office.

[1:16:06] Ben Rimalower: This would again be another wonderful number in a musical.

[1:16:09] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[1:16:10] Ben Rimalower: She goes in and she starts saying, uh, take everything, the Mingvas, porcelain, Fabrigay eggs, Tiffany Lamps.

[1:16:18] Daniel Nolen: I mean, she's literally just like listing Barbara Streisand's favorite things.

[1:16:22] Ben Rimalower: I mean, um I I didn't I didn't remember from being a kid that Elise was supposed to be so rich.

[1:16:29] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[1:16:29] Ben Rimalower: I mean, I know she's supposed to be a movie star.

[1:16:31] Daniel Nolen: Like, I didn't remember that she actually had an Oscar.

[1:16:34] Ben Rimalower: Because I just remembered the line about that is a golden globe.

[1:16:38] Daniel Nolen: Um I forgot that she also has the Oscar.

[1:16:42] Ben Rimalower: And like, does she owns like the whole well, also it's things have changed now.

[1:16:46] Daniel Nolen: Like in those days, I feel like when they said a building downtown, now downtown is like as expensive as uptown, you know.

[1:16:54] Ben Rimalower: But maybe that was a little bit more like in the wrong part.

[1:16:56] Daniel Nolen: But whatever.

[1:16:57] Ben Rimalower: In 96, Soho was already like extremely upscale.

[1:17:01] Daniel Nolen: But like, anyway, uh, but it's but it's just funny going through all the belongings.

[1:17:05] Ben Rimalower: Like Elise is like reloaded.

[1:17:08] Daniel Nolen: She loaded and um it's expensive shit.

[1:17:12] Ben Rimalower: I mean, it's yeah, you know, uh, the the the some of the interiors of this movie, especially like Bill's office and and his apartment, there's so much just random crap everywhere.

[1:17:24] Daniel Nolen: It's all expensive decor.

[1:17:25] Ben Rimalower: I mean, it it feels like you're playing The Sims or something, and you're just you just like purchased all this of these random like vases and plates and shit.

[1:17:32] Daniel Nolen: I would love to like go through it with the production designer and ask about like are those real uh Goldiehan Andy Warhols, or are they just things that were made for the Well, I was wondering that as well because I know some like the on her answering machine table, which I love that montage as well, because you get a little glimpse of each of the women.

[1:17:53] Ben Rimalower: I love that she has her own autographed photo.

[1:17:56] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, she has her own autographed photo, and then another black and white photo of her really young is literally just uh a still from foul play.

[1:18:06] Ben Rimalower: It's like a shot from from that movie.

[1:18:08] Daniel Nolen: And I love when they do that in movies, like they they use actual like photos from the actor's uh filmography.

[1:18:14] Ben Rimalower: Okay, I got lost.

[1:18:15] Daniel Nolen: What next?

[1:18:15] Ben Rimalower: What next?

[1:18:16] Daniel Nolen: They go to the downtown building, which again just like like a random detail.

[1:18:20] Ben Rimalower: I love that by the way, that building is transformed into their beautiful office.

[1:18:24] Daniel Nolen: Yes, that was the part I I that that was the part that made me just like roll my eyes so hard, and then that must have been, you know, in the original cut, they must have had like more of that.

[1:18:34] Ben Rimalower: But the fact that she's like, okay, this is gonna be perfect, and then like a split second later, it's suddenly magically transformed.

[1:18:40] Daniel Nolen: I'm there for it.

[1:18:42] Ben Rimalower: It's so it's just so like okay, gotta get this done.

[1:18:46] Daniel Nolen: Uh so sexy in those blue workout clothes.

[1:18:50] Ben Rimalower: Yes, the Stairmaster.

[1:18:52] Daniel Nolen: I knew you would love that.

[1:18:56] Ben Rimalower: Oh my god, I literally, as I was writing it, I was like, I bet Daniel's thinking that I love it too.

[1:19:04] Daniel Nolen: And in this scene, Bet's getting cuter too.

[1:19:06] Ben Rimalower: It's like her character is trimming down a bit.

[1:19:09] Daniel Nolen: The weird like B plot about Bette going from fat to skinny is like a little bit crazy.

[1:19:14] Ben Rimalower: Well, and again, that must have been that must, they must have had more material on that in the longer cut because that is kind of a random detail that they don't really explore fully.

[1:19:23] Daniel Nolen: But in this scene, she wears she's wearing a little shorter skirt and like you can see her legs.

[1:19:29] Ben Rimalower: And then, okay, so after this, we get the full Sarah Jessica experience with Maggie Smith.

[1:19:35] Daniel Nolen: Uh why don't you why don't you talk about this scene?

[1:19:38] Ben Rimalower: There's so many great moments.

[1:19:39] Daniel Nolen: Well, I just want to say I've been quoting this scene for years.

[1:19:42] Ben Rimalower: And I always do Maggie Smith doing a Maggie Smith impression that she does everywhere.

[1:19:47] Daniel Nolen: But I forgot that she actually sort of does like a quote unquote like New York accent in this movie.

[1:19:54] Ben Rimalower: Does she?

[1:19:55] Daniel Nolen: Like it's so hard to notice it because it's subtle and she's just sounds like Maggie Smith.

[1:20:00] Ben Rimalower: But she definitely is like not giving it like the full like British Maggie.

[1:20:05] Daniel Nolen: She definitely is going for a little bit of like a New York society lady.

[1:20:10] Ben Rimalower: And um, who's in fact married to a Jew, Ganilla Garsens Goldberg, you know?

[1:20:15] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, Gunilla Goldberg.

[1:20:16] Ben Rimalower: Um, but you know, that's very Dolly Gallagher Levi.

[1:20:19] Daniel Nolen: Um it's I mean, I don't even know.

[1:20:23] Ben Rimalower: The scene is just like such a perfect vehicle for Maggie.

[1:20:29] Daniel Nolen: I mean, just like just And and just the the pairing of Maggie Smith with Sarah Jessica Parker, it's it's just so delicious because Maggie's like this really proper Upper East Side matron, and then Sarah Jessica's just this like trashy, like trying to make it work, using an a guy for his money, trying to become, you know, the next Jackie O or whatever, but just like does not know how to handle herself at lunch, let alone in society.

[1:20:58] Daniel Nolen: My favorite part about this scene is that she says something that we say all the time, which is restaurant quality.

[1:21:03] Ben Rimalower: Yes, she does.

[1:21:04] Daniel Nolen: I usually bring my own dressing, you know that fat-free ranch stuff, which, you know, I feel that.

[1:21:09] Ben Rimalower: That's very my people.

[1:21:11] Daniel Nolen: It's just also just I mean, Fat Free Ranch is so the 90s and it's so disgusting. Like, I mean, I'm not I'm this is not me shitting on ranch dressing. Like, I think ranch dressing has its place in the world, although like I think I think two people use it way too much. But you know, I like it on pizza. But there's you can fat-free ranch is one of the dumbest inventions. It's like fat-free cream cheese.

[1:21:33] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:21:33] Daniel Nolen: Like it's just that whole 90s craze of considering fat the enemy while we were all like just like guzzling carbs constantly.

[1:21:41] Ben Rimalower: Histing sugar, yeah.

[1:21:42] Daniel Nolen: And it's but it but it's also just like the idea of saying to like Maggie Smith, you know, mostly that fat-free ranch stuff. As if Ganilla Garson Goldberg is gonna be like She like knows what that is. I I like smack mouse. You know, like she's still not on the same page, but she's just pretending to like, you know, because they're suckering her. Uh it's just so perfect. And and Maggie just hits all the levels, but also just like like when Maggie like hustles her along to finish the first course.

[1:22:12] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:22:12] Daniel Nolen: And like the maid is coming to like take the play, she's like, are you done? But like she's clearly not done. But Maggie's just like, just we we gotta move this show along. She's like fork. Fuck.

[1:22:24] Ben Rimalower: Um.

[1:22:25] Daniel Nolen: So SJP's so good opposite Maggie, and in the next uh section, she's so wonderful with Morty, played by Dan Hedaya, I guess is how you say it.

[1:22:36] Ben Rimalower: Famous actor.

[1:22:37] Daniel Nolen: Um the dad in Clueless.

[1:22:40] Ben Rimalower: Oh, really?

[1:22:41] Daniel Nolen: I know you know, I've never seen that.

[1:22:42] Ben Rimalower: Can you believe?

[1:22:43] Daniel Nolen: That's insane.

[1:22:43] Ben Rimalower: Oh my god.

[1:22:44] Daniel Nolen: I know. Although I did just recently watch this movie, uh, this old Cohen Brothers movie called Blood Simple, and he plays the bad guy in that.

[1:22:53] Ben Rimalower: Oh, yeah, he's like in everything.

[1:22:55] Daniel Nolen: Yeah. Um, but this scene with the penthouse and the three girls sneaking in with Duardo is so again, just like physical comedy to the point where it's like a Lucy and Ethel moment at the end with the with the window washing thing. But uh again, this penthouse, so 90s, feels like The Sims, just like random shit everywhere, like a fountain, a Mona Lisa tissue box, uh, another fountain with a waterfall. I mean, it's their trash, a lazy boy, so trashy.

[1:23:23] Ben Rimalower: You know, yeah.

[1:23:24] Daniel Nolen: That that horrible TV. I mean, that TV made me want to not have a TV in my home.

[1:23:30] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[1:23:30] Daniel Nolen: Upstairs in the office, there's literally a full-size coffee machine. Um, I also have to say, like, Bronson can show, like, I mean, I don't know. Do you have a life experience of him?

[1:23:44] Ben Rimalower: No, I was actually gonna ask you about him because uh I know him just from this, but I know he has done many things outside of this.

[1:23:51] Daniel Nolen: I mean, like, I believe what put him on the map was his featured role basically as this character in Beverly Hills Cop.

[1:24:00] Ben Rimalower: Oh, okay.

[1:24:01] Daniel Nolen: Um, with a much stronger and more impenetrable accent.

[1:24:08] Ben Rimalower: This accent is so crazy.

[1:24:10] Daniel Nolen: That performance was so fucking funny, and even in that movie opposite Eddie Murphy, Bronson Pinchot is still possibly the funniest thing. And um, it's a little bit like homophobic, even though Bronson Pinchot is gay, but it's like a little bit like 80s movie, like not homophobic, but just kind of like the gay is a little bit the butt of the joke, you know?

[1:24:31] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:24:31] Daniel Nolen: Um, but uh, but he was frickin' hilarious, and out of that, he got a long-running hit 80s sitcom called Perfect Strangers.

[1:24:41] Ben Rimalower: Oh doing more accent work, where Broadway actor, singer, dancer Marklyn Baker plays this American guy whose Russian cousin, cousin or East European cousin, cousin Balkie comes to live with him in the in a in New York, played by Bronson Pinchot. And it's like a buddy comedy sitcom about him and his cousin Balki living together in the big city, you know.

[1:25:11] Daniel Nolen: I mean, it's such like an 80s, just it's such the kind of like sitcom-y sitcom that sitcoms in a way that even a sitcom today would never sitcom, you know.

[1:25:21] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[1:25:22] Daniel Nolen: How much of a but it would check chuck. But it like, but it ran for years, and it was Bronson Pinchot was definitely just like a cultural like icon of the 80s, you know.

[1:25:31] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:25:32] Daniel Nolen: That's so interesting, because I literally only know it from this. And then his career sort of died, and he had a few other things. Like I've I almost had forgotten he was in this because it's actually a hit movie, you know.

[1:25:43] Ben Rimalower: So like it it seems like he didn't even have these kind of opportunities after this.

[1:25:47] Daniel Nolen: The only real sort of notable thing he did after this was that he starred in the Broadway version of the Sondheim review, putting it together with Carol Burnett.

[1:25:57] Ben Rimalower: Oh, yeah, sure.

[1:25:59] Daniel Nolen: But um, but I kind of feel like in this movie he's one of the less successful performances.

[1:26:05] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, and I I think that as well, but I think he has a fine performance.

[1:26:09] Daniel Nolen: He's fine. But the thing is he's so well cast, he's because they chose him because they clearly wanted him to do what he did on Perfect Strangers and what he did in Beverly Hills Cop, which is to do a character with the comedically broad Eastern European accent.

[1:26:27] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah.

[1:26:28] Daniel Nolen: And he chooses to do something more subtle, and that's not what the script wants.

[1:26:33] Ben Rimalower: Right, right.

[1:26:34] Daniel Nolen: And I don't know if he was difficult about it, or just nobody had the balls to be like the accent needs to be bigger, buddy. You know.

[1:26:41] Ben Rimalower: But like he could have been funnier in this movie if they let him go OTT.

[1:26:46] Daniel Nolen: Or willing to do it. Who knows though? I mean, maybe it would have been too much because in, you know, these scenes with Sarah Jessica and all the girl, all the ladies, it's I mean, there's so much happening already, and there's so much personality. It's so clearly the fact that he has a subtle accent, like his character is like I keep I kept watching it last night being like, I know this broke the director's heart to watch this movie because like this is clearly not what they wanted.

[1:27:15] Ben Rimalower: Well, and it almost at some points it almost starts to sound like a speech impediment where you're like, oh wait, is he does he have like a some sort of he can't pronounce his words or is it an accent?

[1:27:25] Daniel Nolen: Um yeah, it's not they c but it would have been so funny if he did the thing, or if somebody else had done that bit.

[1:27:32] Ben Rimalower: Right, right.

[1:27:34] Daniel Nolen: Um, okay, so another thing I love about this scene is, and it just gives me so much joy is seeing Diane Keaton at a computer, like hacking into the mainframe.

[1:27:45] Ben Rimalower: Yes, yes.

[1:27:45] Daniel Nolen: Just like clicking on a keyboard in a way that no one actually does that. Like you use a fucking mouse. You know?

[1:27:52] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:27:52] Daniel Nolen: In movies, people are always doing these things on the keyboard, and it's like, you know, she's like, no, no. And I don't know, just die thinking of Diane as Annie as like the tech savvy one of the group just like gives me my entire life.

[1:28:05] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:28:05] Daniel Nolen: Um, and then of course Mayhem and Sue's Ethel and Lucy Hijinx with the window washer. Then as they're going down, they get stuck at that window with the couple making out in bed. And do you know who that lady is?

[1:28:16] Ben Rimalower: Burton.

[1:28:16] Daniel Nolen: Yes. That's another one I didn't realize until um just in the past few minutes.

[1:28:21] Ben Rimalower: And the man is Walter Bobby.

[1:28:24] Daniel Nolen: Walter Bobby. That's I I knew the man was probably someone, but I did not recognize him. But I was like, oh my god, Kate Burton, just another weird character. I want to live in the world where this moment is interrupted by them being fans of Elise.

[1:28:42] Ben Rimalower: You look great.

[1:28:43] Daniel Nolen: Like, yeah, yeah.

[1:28:45] Ben Rimalower: That is a part if I had to choose one line in the whole movie written by Paul Ruddick, it would be that.

[1:28:50] Daniel Nolen: And there's so much story being told in that one little glimpse uh of them because there's like roses on the bedside table. There's some sort of like it's clear that this is like um some sort of event, like anniversary, or it's some sort of thing that they're on a date with, or maybe they're sneaking away to a hotel or something.

[1:29:08] Ben Rimalower: Interesting.

[1:29:09] Daniel Nolen: But um, there's a lot of of stuff happening. I will say this was the scene up in the penthouse, up in the apartment or whatever, where Bette was giving me the most Lorna left hamminess. However, I do really love Bet. Like, like I could love no other.

[1:29:26] Ben Rimalower: When they get off the window washing thing.

[1:29:29] Daniel Nolen: Yes, yes. And she's like, you want to go again?

[1:29:31] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:29:33] Daniel Nolen: She reminded me of my my dearly departed friend, the late great Poppy Kramer, a fabulous comedian who was a fixture at the duplex for a million years. And that was exactly the joie de vive that Poppy Kramer would have brought to that line.

[1:29:50] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, so good.

[1:29:51] Daniel Nolen: Wanna go again? Uh so then they're having their little picnic with candles, peanuts, marshmallows, and a platter of full-size Twix bars. God bless.

[1:30:02] Ben Rimalower: Which I did not I never noticed that until this one.

[1:30:05] Daniel Nolen: And I think they're right by Bet. I did it, but you're making me hungry for candy.

[1:30:08] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, same.

[1:30:10] Daniel Nolen: Uh, of course, the you don't know me moment, and then we have, which I love, this kind of device for advancing the plot, like this montage of each of their answering machines. Um, which you know I paused on everyone and just took in everything on that table.

[1:30:25] Ben Rimalower: Wait, one more, one more Bette Midler shout out, though.

[1:30:27] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1:30:28] Ben Rimalower: When they get in the fight, and Bet shows and shows all the liquor bottles in in Goldie's trash can.

[1:30:34] Daniel Nolen: Yes.

[1:30:35] Ben Rimalower: And she's like, I had company.

[1:30:36] Daniel Nolen: And it's it's so bad, and it's so over the top, but it's fabulous, and it works. And she's like, Whoo! Guns and roses.

[1:30:41] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I mean, a classic, wonderful, wonderful line.

[1:30:46] Daniel Nolen: That's just so bad that like weird flip into head voice. So she's like, Yeah, guns and roses. Roses? It's like it's like with Gipsy when she's like, amigos.

[1:30:55] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah, her little yodel.

[1:30:57] Daniel Nolen: Yes, that's uh, but we'll get to that. I mean, that scene we have to talk about in detail.

[1:31:02] Ben Rimalower: Um, I'm sorry, I thought that's where you were.

[1:31:04] Daniel Nolen: No, no, no, no. I mean, not yet. We're almost there. But um, oh wait, okay, then we have the auction. So this is uh Maggie Smith, the gay decorator, and Sarah Jessica, a wonderful, wonderful trio.

[1:31:16] Ben Rimalower: And then, of course, we have the classic plant in the audience, Bette trying to uh raise the uh bidding price in a wonderful crazy blonde wig.

[1:31:27] Daniel Nolen: Yes, she do.

[1:31:28] Ben Rimalower: Uh then we have the scene with Bette and Jason, Bette's in her like good dress, and I'm pretty sure that arm wire she has. I'm pretty sure we had that armoire as a kid.

[1:31:38] Daniel Nolen: Um okay, here we go. Then we get to the best scene. Elise is drunk, Bette and Diane are on the couch, Elise's emptied of bottle of vodka and goes to get another one, and they start talking, and that's when Elise really goes off. And and Bet starts emptying the bottles, and as you said, says her famous line, guns and roses.

[1:31:59] Ben Rimalower: There it is.

[1:32:03] Daniel Nolen: There's nothing I love more than Bette getting on her high horse as a character.

[1:32:09] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, in a head voice.

[1:32:11] Daniel Nolen: Brilliant. Um, my other favorite Bet moment in this scene is after she throws the golden globe.

[1:32:17] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:32:17] Daniel Nolen: And it shows Goldie rushing over to like rescue it. And then it cuts back to Bet, and Bet does this crazy, like complete 180 turnaround, and then she kind of saucily kind of leans against the bar. And that movement is I had to rewind it twice and rewatch it because that movement is so sassy and funny. Just Bette's little like satisfaction with what she just did.

[1:32:41] Ben Rimalower: And again, this I wrote down. They blend like the best Neapolitan ice cream in this scene. Like all of their neuroses and high strungness and personality comes through. Uh and again, uh all of Elise's uh the mise en official.

[1:32:58] Daniel Nolen: Yes, although I do not like that oil painting at all.

[1:33:01] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, is that supposed to be like um like a John Singer Sargent or something?

[1:33:06] Daniel Nolen: It's it looks like like somebody like really like just like banged it out real fast for the movie, but maybe not. Maybe it's maybe it's a real thing and it's like I mean I think it's supposed to uh like Madame X, that famous painting.

[1:33:20] Ben Rimalower: I thought like maybe that was supposed to be.

[1:33:20] Daniel Nolen: Oh, I bet you're right, and I just am an idiot and missed it.

[1:33:27] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:33:28] Daniel Nolen: And then of course there's the war hall. I mean, it's basically like Elise just I live for the world, you know. Just painted into like the history of art.

[1:33:34] Ben Rimalower: Okay, so then this is another like but still moment. Uh Billy Porter song playing, and then we see each of them recovering from this big conflict. And I know this is another moment I thought of you. I know you felt that whenever we see Bette shopping at the grocery store.

[1:33:48] Daniel Nolen: Felt what?

[1:33:49] Ben Rimalower: I know you you felt that scene because you love a grocery store, you love shopping.

[1:33:53] Daniel Nolen: No, no, I hate I hate a scene in a movie where they're derailed and we all fucking know it's gonna be put back together. I fucking hate this moment of like the gospel Billy Porter song and the three of them. And watching it last night, I was like, okay, calm down, Rimalhour.

[1:34:12] Ben Rimalower: This lasts for about like 18 seconds.

[1:34:15] Daniel Nolen: Like it'll be okay.

[1:34:16] Ben Rimalower: It's over so fast.

[1:34:17] Daniel Nolen: But I'm just I automatically get my defenses up because I'm just like, I know they get back together.

[1:34:22] Ben Rimalower: Don't waste my time.

[1:34:26] Daniel Nolen: I just love seeing how each of them deal with it because Elise tries to clean up and she obviously can't work the vacuum.

[1:34:32] Ben Rimalower: Bette goes to her happy place, which is shopping, and then Annie's just like fingering the pearls on the bed.

[1:34:38] Daniel Nolen: What saves it is Eileen, because yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1:34:42] Ben Rimalower: She is so touched that that Diane Keaton thought of her when she felt bad.

[1:34:49] Daniel Nolen: Her satisfaction about that makes it all worth it.

[1:34:52] Ben Rimalower: Just like making it about her.

[1:34:54] Daniel Nolen: You called me.

[1:34:56] Ben Rimalower: Oh my god.

[1:34:58] Daniel Nolen: Oh, it's so brilliant.

[1:35:00] Ben Rimalower: And then, of course, her wonderful, wonderful line uh maybe send a hanging plant.

[1:35:05] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[1:35:06] Ben Rimalower: Okay, then we see Elise show up at Brenda's, and then Elise and Brenda come back to convince Annie.

[1:35:11] Daniel Nolen: And this is a line I don't understand what they're saying.

[1:35:15] Ben Rimalower: Uh Annie says, Elise, what if you stop drinking?

[1:35:18] Daniel Nolen: What if you start drinking again and Brenda, you start snaking away?

[1:35:22] Ben Rimalower: Is that what she's saying?

[1:35:23] Daniel Nolen: Or is she saying snacking away?

[1:35:26] Ben Rimalower: Oh, I don't know.

[1:35:27] Daniel Nolen: I've never understood that line.

[1:35:29] Ben Rimalower: And then we see uh Morty gets arrested.

[1:35:32] Daniel Nolen: Okay, then they all take control and they're stuck, they start.

[1:35:35] Ben Rimalower: Morty is future Academy Award winner, former Broadway musical comedy triple threat, J.K. Simmons.

[1:35:42] Daniel Nolen: J.K. Simmons, yes, as yeah, coming in the store to arrest Morty.

[1:35:47] Ben Rimalower: That is so crazy.

[1:35:48] Daniel Nolen: I had never noticed that before last night.

[1:35:51] Ben Rimalower: I was a fan of his already because he was um he and Walter Bobby were three of well, Walter Bobby was nicely, nicely Johnson.

[1:36:01] Daniel Nolen: And but the three, they were the two of them plus somebody else were the trio in um Guys and Dolls with Faith Prince and Ethan.

[1:36:09] Ben Rimalower: Uh so then they eat they each, you know, roll out their plans to get their husbands.

[1:36:14] Daniel Nolen: Uh so 90s.

[1:36:16] Ben Rimalower: Then we go to nobles.

[1:36:18] Daniel Nolen: Then we go global.

[1:36:20] Ben Rimalower: This is another misheard lyric from this show.

[1:36:23] Daniel Nolen: Uh, whenever Diane Keaton says, I bought them out.

[1:36:27] Ben Rimalower: I never knew what she was saying as a kid, and I always thought she said, I bought the Mao.

[1:36:32] Daniel Nolen: Like I thought the Mao was like the name of the ad agency.

[1:36:35] Ben Rimalower: Oh, funny.

[1:36:36] Daniel Nolen: So such a peak Diane Keaton of like just so Diane and so perfect is when she's like, I I did.

[1:36:42] Ben Rimalower: I can, and I did.

[1:36:47] Daniel Nolen: I mean, it's also so baby boom, like her in a boardroom, you know, like with ad executives.

[1:36:51] Ben Rimalower: By the way, played by Greg Edelman and Mark Nelson.

[1:36:55] Daniel Nolen: Mmm.

[1:36:56] Ben Rimalower: Former who those are.

[1:36:57] Daniel Nolen: Greg Edelman is Broadway star of City of Angels, former husband of Carolee Carmelo.

[1:37:03] Ben Rimalower: Oh, okay.

[1:37:03] Daniel Nolen: Now there's the credit I need.

[1:37:05] Ben Rimalower: And Mark Nelson, uh, many Broadway credits, the original star of the Picasso Steve Martin play, Picasso at the Le Pan Agile, and um uh so many other things.

[1:37:17] Daniel Nolen: Uh so then, yeah, they each get their men and then they bring them in, and then of course, Chris says her famous line, Daddy, I'm a lesbian.

[1:37:25] Ben Rimalower: A big one.

[1:37:26] Daniel Nolen: Hilarious.

[1:37:27] Ben Rimalower: So when they're sitting the men down and they're talking to them, giving them their lecture.

[1:37:32] Daniel Nolen: This is the best moment that my sister and I would always laugh out loud at is whenever um Annie's doing her little speech and Bet's nodding, and then Morty says, What is this about?

[1:37:42] Ben Rimalower: I'm getting sick of this, or whatever.

[1:37:43] Daniel Nolen: And Bette does this double take to him that is so funny.

[1:37:48] Ben Rimalower: And my sister and I would always laugh and rewind that moment.

[1:37:51] Daniel Nolen: Then we have the building montage, they they start writing the checks for the ladies.

[1:37:55] Ben Rimalower: We have this montage.

[1:37:56] Daniel Nolen: That must be why they cut the other montage, because they were like, one montage is enough.

[1:37:56] Ben Rimalower: One montage is enough, yes.

[1:38:02] Daniel Nolen: Uh sisters doing it, are doing it for themselves, starts playing, they start building the Santa.

[1:38:08] Ben Rimalower: Elise starts rehearsing the play, which is at the quote Plymouth Theater, which it's the one next to the booth.

[1:38:15] Daniel Nolen: What is that actual theater called?

[1:38:17] Ben Rimalower: The one next to the booth is the Schubert.

[1:38:20] Daniel Nolen: No, on the Oh no, no, that was called the Plymouth.

[1:38:22] Ben Rimalower: It just got renamed the Schoenfeld or some bullshit in the Schoenfeld.

[1:38:26] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1:38:26] Ben Rimalower: Fuck those fucking fucks.

[1:38:28] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, fuck you.

[1:38:29] Ben Rimalower: If you're gonna name a theater over, then if you're gonna change the name of the historic Plymouth Theater on Broadway, why don't you name it after Ethel Merman?

[1:38:37] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, some fucking fat cat real estate agent.

[1:38:42] Ben Rimalower: Yes, I could not agree more.

[1:38:43] Daniel Nolen: That agent, you know, real estate investor.

[1:38:46] Ben Rimalower: The sh fucking Schoenfeld and what's the other one?

[1:38:49] Daniel Nolen: The Jacobs.

[1:38:50] Ben Rimalower: Ugh.

[1:38:51] Daniel Nolen: Oh, all those.

[1:38:52] Ben Rimalower: I mean, uh, this for another podcast, but there are so many people we need to honor.

[1:38:56] Daniel Nolen: We need a Jerry Herman Theater.

[1:38:58] Ben Rimalower: I'll be with Patty against those.

[1:39:00] Daniel Nolen: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

[1:39:02] Ben Rimalower: I'll be Patty, the Schoenfelds.

[1:39:04] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[1:39:06] Ben Rimalower: Uh okay, so then we see Annie in a boardroom again.

[1:39:11] Daniel Nolen: Then we go to the Kathy Lee Gifford of it all with her interview at the Cynthia Swan Griffin Crisis Center for Women, which is a Barbara Streisand mouthful if I've ever heard one, in Soho.

[1:39:22] Ben Rimalower: And you know, there's a Barbara Streisand Women's Cancer Research Center.

[1:39:27] Daniel Nolen: Exact, exactly.

[1:39:28] Ben Rimalower: The heart center for women or whatever.

[1:39:31] Daniel Nolen: And then we see Okay, then the final scene.

[1:39:35] Ben Rimalower: Uh the opening of the Centa.

[1:39:37] Daniel Nolen: Another great Eileen line.

[1:39:39] Ben Rimalower: Wonderful helping people through a buffet.

[1:39:42] Daniel Nolen: I mean, there's so much to say about this scene, but uh I know we're almost out of time.

[1:39:46] Ben Rimalower: What do you what are your thoughts?

[1:39:48] Daniel Nolen: I mean, there's the Ivana Trump, there's Uncle Carmine and Ganilla getting together, about to fuck.

[1:39:54] Ben Rimalower: I mean, I I'm I'm the main thing I just want to talk about is the song.

[1:39:59] Daniel Nolen: So, you know, you I oh but before that, sorry, one more thing that we always quote another great Eileen moment.

[1:40:06] Ben Rimalower: Uh Annie, you're not getting any younger or thinner.

[1:40:11] Daniel Nolen: You know what I think you really need?

[1:40:13] Ben Rimalower: Absolutely.

[1:40:15] Daniel Nolen: Lovely.

[1:40:17] Ben Rimalower: Brenda and Morty, may reconcile, and oh my god, that when they start dancing together and it cuts to Jason smiling, that just like warms my heart so.

[1:40:25] Daniel Nolen: This is what I was trying to figure out.

[1:40:26] Ben Rimalower: Who does he remind me of?

[1:40:27] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, there is someone he reminds me of as well.

[1:40:30] Ben Rimalower: He isn't somebody.

[1:40:31] Daniel Nolen: But there's a grown-up actor.

[1:40:33] Ben Rimalower: Now, if that guy, that that guy nowadays would be what, like your age or a little older than you, younger than me.

[1:40:39] Daniel Nolen: Little older, probably, yeah.

[1:40:40] Ben Rimalower: But there's a guy that's like in his 50s or 60s who looks like an older version of that kid, and I can't place it.

[1:40:49] Daniel Nolen: Anyway, um, the song.

[1:40:52] Ben Rimalower: Uh then we get to the song, yes.

[1:40:54] Daniel Nolen: Um there's okay, you you what do you you say you're taking?

[1:40:59] Ben Rimalower: Oh, I just want to say that just as in 1996, my takeaway is Goldie.

[1:41:05] Daniel Nolen: Like, I feel like Diane Keaton is like, you know, my moment of living for Diane Keaton as a singer is Annie Hall.

[1:41:12] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:41:13] Daniel Nolen: Like hearing Diane Keaton sing in that weird little, like tiny teeny insey weensy soprano, it had to be you, or seems like old times.

[1:41:22] Ben Rimalower: To me, that is glorious magic, and no crass cow like Patty or Bernadette could ever do something as exquisite and period and perfect as that.

[1:41:33] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, I'm talking to you, Bernadette.

[1:41:35] Ben Rimalower: And you know, and Bette Midler, you know, my moment of Bette Midler singing is every other moment of my life when I'm not watching First Wives Club.

[1:41:45] Daniel Nolen: And like clearly Bet sings this song, like, I don't know, whatever key is good for these girls, you know.

[1:41:50] Ben Rimalower: Like, yeah, yeah.

[1:41:52] Daniel Nolen: Like, that's like, what how are we doing this?

[1:41:54] Ben Rimalower: When do I come in?

[1:41:55] Daniel Nolen: Okay.

[1:41:55] Ben Rimalower: Like, you know, like she's just like not stressed out about this vocal performance, you know.

[1:42:01] Daniel Nolen: But like, this is like Goldie's like musical theater comeback, I feel, you know.

[1:42:07] Ben Rimalower: And Goldie's like so Pat Benatar balls to the wall.

[1:42:13] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[1:42:14] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, she really goes balls to the wall.

[1:42:19] Daniel Nolen: Is too strong, but like there's a thread of Goldie as like a little more like hippie chick, rock and roll cool than Diane or Bet.

[1:42:30] Ben Rimalower: Which makes sense because where the other two have been like moms, Goldie has been like, you know, doing blow and like going to the Oscars and like been like a celebrity all these years since they graduated college.

[1:42:43] Daniel Nolen: You know, her character rather.

[1:42:45] Ben Rimalower: And so, you know, she uses the word man, and like she's just like, you know, Elise is just sort of like cooler and more rock and roll than the other two.

[1:42:55] Daniel Nolen: And you hear it when she sings, you know, she's just like, you know, she comes from like a rock and roll playoff, chess voice, belter, balls to the wall.

[1:43:07] Ben Rimalower: It doesn't have to sound pretty.

[1:43:09] Daniel Nolen: You know, not that Benatar, it's almost Bonnie Tyler.

[1:43:13] Ben Rimalower: You know, she's she's like, what's her line that she sings?

[1:43:17] Daniel Nolen: It's like my favorite part is whenever she's like, they're like, I'm young, and then she's like, Oh, I love to be young.

[1:43:23] Ben Rimalower: No, exactly.

[1:43:24] Daniel Nolen: It's very like guttural.

[1:43:25] Ben Rimalower: She's like, I love to be young.

[1:43:28] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[1:43:29] Ben Rimalower: And I mean, as as wonderful as this number is, I will say the lip syncing.

[1:43:34] Daniel Nolen: Girls sucks.

[1:43:37] Ben Rimalower: I mean, the lip syncing is so bad.

[1:43:41] Daniel Nolen: Um I don't mind.

[1:43:43] Ben Rimalower: But of course, I mean, also, we're supposed to believe there's suddenly like all these backup singers and like a band behind them.

[1:43:49] Daniel Nolen: I mean, it's a little, you have to suspend disbelief a little bit.

[1:43:51] Ben Rimalower: I mean, I kind of wish that they did it at the event.

[1:43:55] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, me too.

[1:43:56] Ben Rimalower: But I think this was why is I never understood the line and maybe a little brave.

[1:44:02] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, again, I think I think there was more that they cut that was leading up to that or something.

[1:44:10] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, and I don't know exactly.

[1:44:15] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, exactly.

[1:44:16] Ben Rimalower: I don't know exactly the order of events, but I know this they didn't have an ending for the movie.

[1:44:21] Daniel Nolen: They didn't know how they were gonna end it.

[1:44:23] Ben Rimalower: And so I guess they had this footage already for something.

[1:44:29] Daniel Nolen: They had it, and so they're like, oh, maybe we should tack this on at the end, and this will be a good ending.

[1:44:33] Ben Rimalower: Oh I don't know.

[1:44:35] Daniel Nolen: I know they this originally wasn't the ending, and I don't know if they decided to film it for the ending or if it was already filmed and then they decided to tack it on.

[1:44:42] Ben Rimalower: Well, I love it.

[1:44:44] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, this was obviously the best, the best ending.

[1:44:47] Ben Rimalower: And um nothing makes me happier than their three outfits that are so totes them and their character in the same color.

[1:44:56] Daniel Nolen: The same color, but totally tailor-made for it.

[1:44:59] Ben Rimalower: You can always make me happy to see through like I want the Simpsons to be in their normal clothes, but in black sequence, you know.

[1:45:06] Daniel Nolen: Like that is never old on me.

[1:45:11] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:45:12] Daniel Nolen: Um, we get at the end, whenever they exit the building, we get a little bit of Bet's signature bet walk.

[1:45:17] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[1:45:17] Daniel Nolen: And then very simple choreography, but down the streets and sound guys.

[1:45:24] Ben Rimalower: Um, and one more thing I'll say, which I must have known this, but I had forgotten it.

[1:45:29] Daniel Nolen: They all turned 50 around the same time on the set of the First Wives Club.

[1:45:35] Ben Rimalower: Their birthdays kind of all fall within the same couple months.

[1:45:38] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[1:45:39] Ben Rimalower: And they all turn 50, which is just so um, just such a nice bit of trivia, but it's also so fitting in the point of this piece.

[1:45:48] Daniel Nolen: You know, the fact that these women are aging, the fact that they all turn Fabulous 50 together.

[1:45:54] Ben Rimalower: Um, the lady age, if you know, we're talking about Lady Watch.

[1:45:58] Daniel Nolen: That's Ryan.

[1:45:58] Ben Rimalower: Shout out to Ryan and Jason.

[1:46:01] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, I mean, like I said, I've seen this movie dozens and dozens of times, but watching it again, the older I get, I always pick up little things here and there that I didn't before, and I never get tired of it, you know.

[1:46:15] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I could watch it again tonight.

[1:46:16] Daniel Nolen: Well, thank you for making me watch it because I loved it.

[1:46:19] Ben Rimalower: Well, thank you so much for agreeing to watch it.

[1:46:22] Daniel Nolen: And you know, listeners, if you have other suggestions or thoughts or whatever about our future QuaranStreams, please let us know.

[1:46:32] Ben Rimalower: Um, we have a lot of exciting things planned, and um, one of those things, of course, is our live streams on Tuesday and Thursday at 10:30, which you can tune into on the Broadway World Facebook page, Broadway Podcast Network, YouTube.

[1:46:48] Daniel Nolen: And uh yeah, we have an exciting uh future for that planned as well.

[1:46:53] Ben Rimalower: Thanks for tuning in.

[1:46:54] Daniel Nolen: Thanks for tuning in.

[1:46:56] Ben Rimalower: Bye.

[1:46:58] Daniel Nolen: Thanks for listening to Ben Rimmelauer's Broken Records on Broadway World.

[1:47:02] Ben Rimalower: For more episodes, visit Broadway World, iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever podcasts do be.

[1:47:08] Daniel Nolen: And be sure to check out our new twice-weekly live stream video chat, Tuesday, Thursday, April, August.

[1:47:14] Ben Rimalower: This episode was edited by me, Daniel Nolen.

[1:47:17] Daniel Nolen: Thanks to Emmy winning composer and lyricist Lance Horn for the Broken Records theme song.

[1:47:21] Ben Rimalower: Follow us both, Ben Rimmelauer and Daniel Nolen on all y'all's socials.

[1:47:25] Daniel Nolen: That's Ben Rimmelauer, B-E-N R-I-M, A L O W E R.

[1:47:31] Ben Rimalower: And that's Nolan with an E, not Nolan with an A.

[1:47:34] Daniel Nolen: Because Nolan with an A isn't it.