This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:01] Ben Rimalower: Broken records. The albums you wouldn't shut up about. Broken records. The music can't live without like Judy, Barbara, Liza, Bent, Batty, Audra, Bernadette. We broadcast this podcast with hopes that someday we might get Patty LaPone.

[0:32] Daniel Nolen: Welcome to Ben Rimalower's Broken Records on Broadway World, Broadway Podcast Network, and Broadway on Demand. I'm Ben Rimalower, and I'm here with my exquisite co-host Daniel Nolen.

[0:46] Daniel Nolen: Hey y'all.

[0:47] Ben Rimalower: Is Broadway on Demand still happening?

[0:50] Daniel Nolen: I don't know. I mean, it's good to say it just to be sure, just to make sure. But um they at the beginning of quarantine, I remember they were so hot for us, and we're just like posting our stuff on their uh Instagram, and now it's like I haven't heard a peep from them.

[1:04] Ben Rimalower: Well, in their defense, we were doing more podcast episodes then.

[1:08] Daniel Nolen: Um That's true. But like also, um, I don't know, like, to be honest, like, first of all, we have a right to like say it because like at least it used to be true, even if it's not anymore.

[1:20] Ben Rimalower: Sure.

[1:21] Daniel Nolen: Like, I mean, I keep thinking what we should be doing is like pretending we have fake sponsorships, like Broadway World, Broadway Podcast Network, Broadway on Demand, and Macy's.com.

[1:33] Ben Rimalower: And Frito-Lay. Diet Pepsi.

[1:36] Daniel Nolen: But um, and apparently, Broadway on Demand is a big deal because like several many people, by which I mean two, have reached out to me and been like, hey, what's the deal with Broadway on Demand? How did you get that? Um But yeah, I just I I'm still not quite clear on who they even are.

[1:55] Ben Rimalower: I'm like, was this something created at the beginning of the pandemic? You know, when everyone thought, like, oh, this is the way of the future, we all are adapting.

[2:03] Daniel Nolen: No, no, no, no, no. It's like a real thing. I'm pretty sure I subscribed to it before the pandemic.

[2:08] Ben Rimalower: Oh, okay, cool. Well, I mean, uh shout out to them if they're listening. I need that I I followed them, of course, but I need to go and like actually look because I mean, if if they get a lot of hits, I mean, we could also plug our um live stream on there.

[2:25] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, I I don't think they're into the live stream. I don't know why. Maybe they maybe they're not fans.

[2:30] Ben Rimalower: But um, speaking of when we uh and plugging it, we might as well just tell the listeners. Uh I can't imagine there's many people listening to this who haven't heard about the live stream at least.

[2:42] Daniel Nolen: But um that is now once a week, uh just once a week, an hour long on Tuesdays, 12 p.m. noon on uh Broadway World Facebook page, Broadway Podcast Network YouTube.

[2:54] Ben Rimalower: It's called uh uh next year some year.

[2:57] Daniel Nolen: Oh, yeah, did I say Tuesday, Thursday? Um you didn't say any name. You didn't name it.

[3:00] Ben Rimalower: Um and I actually would love to tease if anyone is listening to it, and do you do you know what number episode we're gonna be on for future people?

[3:09] Daniel Nolen: Um I don't like 12 or 13 maybe.

[3:14] Ben Rimalower: Well, our episode this week, which per Daniel is 12 or 13, um, and uh will be available for Time Memorial. So if you're listening to this podcast like three years later, you can still find it because Daniel doesn't know this yet.

[3:27] Daniel Nolen: Oh but uh for one of my or one of our uh appreciation stations this week, I have a very, very, very special audio clip that I just found.

[3:42] Ben Rimalower: Oh my god.

[3:43] Daniel Nolen: It was episode 13, by the way.

[3:45] Ben Rimalower: It's episode 13, Lucky 13. And this audio clip is from Betty Buckley's legendary first performance when she replaced Bernadette Peters in Song and Dance.

[3:59] Daniel Nolen: And oh fuck yes. The legend I have heard for years was that when she sang Unexpected Song, she got to that crazy high G at the end.

[4:10] Ben Rimalower: The high G that broke a million voices. You know. And um legend had it that Betty belted that note. And I have heard different bootlegs of Betty in Song and Dance over the years, where she flipped flipped into head voice because it's a G.

[4:29] Daniel Nolen: It's literally the high note that Julie Jordan sings in If I Loved You in Carousel.

[4:35] Ben Rimalower: Right, right. Like, yeah, don't belt a G. It is not belting territory.

[4:40] Daniel Nolen: No, so like, you know, people love to like throw shade at Bernadette. And you know, I'm just constantly defending Bernadette Peters. It's all I do all day long. You know, and they throw shade because Bernadette's like the you.

[4:55] Ben Rimalower: But like fuck you all. It's a fucking G. What would you have her do?

[5:00] Daniel Nolen: But the legend was that Betty Buckley, it's like in those cartoons when they go off the edge of the cliff and they float because they don't know gravity, and then someone hands them a textbook that says like gravity and they miss off.

[5:14] Ben Rimalower: So it's like, you know, but I had listened to these bootlegs. I didn't know when in the run they were from, but Betty flipped like anyone else would. But I just found this clip and it said Betty's first performance, and it was just two tracks. It's just um take that look off your face and unexpected song.

[5:32] Daniel Nolen: And of course, I immediately cut right to the end of Unexpected Song.

[5:37] Ben Rimalower: Yes, honey. Straight to the money note. Honey, I am telling you, she ain't going.

[5:45] Daniel Nolen: Oh shit. And that voice didn't go either. She frickin' belts it.

[5:49] Ben Rimalower: And you know what? I knew I knew it. As I was listening to her go, like uh You knew. You knew what she was looking up to.

[5:55] Daniel Nolen: She's like, that only we are. I could tell the the way that her voice was intonating those other syllables.

[6:04] Ben Rimalower: She clearly had like, she was like running through that airport with like two rollerboards, one on either hand, straight behind her.

[6:12] Daniel Nolen: She was she was like walking faster than the golf carts. She was gonna get in that plane. She was gonna get into that cabin and she was gonna get to her destination, you know.

[6:25] Ben Rimalower: Yes, yes. She will sell this house today.

[6:28] Daniel Nolen: Oh my she sold it above asking, honey.

[6:31] Ben Rimalower: Yes, honey, she made a profit. So uh we will be listening to that on this next episode. That will that that just that I what is what is that our friend recently said?

[6:42] Daniel Nolen: Um god, oh god, oh god. I'm gonna edit this so it's not me thinking, but it was really funny.

[6:47] Ben Rimalower: Our friend Brent said it. He was like, oh honey, she just she just yes. Fuck me. What did he say? It was so funny.

[6:54] Daniel Nolen: He was like, she just um, it wasn't like she replenished my electrolytes. It was like Oh, it was like that.

[7:00] Ben Rimalower: That was so funny. Because I've been trying to incorporate it. Now I can't even find think of it. Um God damn it. And I said we were gonna steal it.

[7:09] Daniel Nolen: Oh lord, okay. Well, I'm gonna think I'm uh god, I have to let this go. I'm gonna I'm just gonna be thinking of it the whole rest of the pod.

[7:16] Ben Rimalower: Um okay, well, I'm sure it'll come to me later when I'm not wanting it. But you know what? I'm I'm glad by the way, that's our friend Brent Husher from Broadway Chicago from Broadway, Chicago.

[7:28] Daniel Nolen: Yes, Brent Pumpkins, famous pumpkin carving artist.

[7:31] Ben Rimalower: Yes, we love him. Um, but uh I'm glad that you actually that we couldn't think of it and that you guessed wrong with She Replenished My Electrolytes, because even though that's not as funny as what he actually said, that's like that's like pretty funny.

[7:47] Daniel Nolen: And I feel like it like opens the door to like a world of like other versions, you know.

[7:53] Ben Rimalower: Yes, yes. Just like now, whenever I refer to my uh cock and balls uh appraise, which I know you enjoy. I now I only refer to it as like, oh, uh, you know, uh she hit me in my uh my uh Bridget Everett and the Tinder moments, or she hit me in my Dainty June and the News Boys, Diana Ross and the Supremes.

[8:12] Daniel Nolen: And every time I try to think of a new one, so this is gonna be in that same uh vein of joke that I'm just gonna like beat until it's dead.

[8:21] Ben Rimalower: Yes, wonderful. Well, speaking of beating till it's dead, uh this week this week we're talking about Judy Holliday and Bells Are Ringing.

[8:32] Daniel Nolen: Now, I have to say, as a disclaimer to this corn stream that we're about to to do, that uh I saw Bells Are Ringing on Broadway in 2000. Tina Landau's brilliant production starring Faith Prince.

[8:46] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[8:46] Daniel Nolen: It was a it was a big flop, but uh but I really loved it. And Faith Prince was absolutely fabulous, as good as she'd been in Guys and Dolls, I thought, which is really saying something.

[8:58] Ben Rimalower: And I I just I absolutely loved it. Now, in fairness, I in fairness to people that say it sucked, I have to say that I did see the closing performance.

[9:14] Daniel Nolen: And it was the I I realized then something that would come to me a lot over the years is that sometimes the energy of a closing is so special and magical.

[9:26] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[9:28] Daniel Nolen: I knew I would think of it in the most inopportune time. Honey, she just validated my parking.

[9:34] Ben Rimalower: Well, when I when I saw Faith Prince's closing and Bells Are Ringing, she validated my parking. And um, I also saw it at Encours with um Kelly O'Hara.

[9:44] Daniel Nolen: And you know that I am not a Kelly O'Hara stan.

[9:49] Ben Rimalower: Uh oh, I don't like where this is going.

[9:52] Daniel Nolen: Uh and uh the thing that I saw Kelly O'Hara in where I liked her the most was The King and I.

[9:59] Ben Rimalower: Um, which I don't know, maybe not everybody would actually call that like a soprano role, but it's certainly soprano-y.

[10:06] Daniel Nolen: It is, it's it's close enough. You know, I like turning that.

[10:09] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I really liked her in that, you know, and the thing that I hated her in was South Pacific.

[10:15] Daniel Nolen: Right.

[10:16] Ben Rimalower: Mary Martin Roller. You know, and I really had a chip on my shoulder of like, you know, uh to do a Patty LaPone impression, not that Patty ever said this, but like, why do they cast Sopranos in Belter rolls?

[10:28] Daniel Nolen: Right, right.

[10:29] Ben Rimalower: And but so I went to see Bells Are Ringing, just like all pissed off because it's in my mind a belter roll, you know.

[10:37] Daniel Nolen: And um, but Kelly was absolutely divine in that production.

[10:42] Ben Rimalower: Really?

[10:43] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, yeah. She was so warm and sexy and funny and appealing.

[10:48] Ben Rimalower: And um I mean, I love Kelly. I love Kelly, but I mostly like her in I've never seen her, I don't think, in a in a belter role.

[10:56] Daniel Nolen: But the clips I've seen, I was not super into.

[10:59] Ben Rimalower: You know what I realized though, watching uh the Bells Are Ringing movie though, is I mean, I obviously Judy Holliday is like an undeniable iconic legend, you know. And and and I and I I love Judy Holliday's performance in this movie.

[11:16] Daniel Nolen: That's not what brought the movie down for me.

[11:19] Ben Rimalower: Way, way, way, wait, wait, wait. Okay, okay. We'll get into it, but that's that's also very shocking to me to hear.

[11:24] Daniel Nolen: Um, but the thing about Judy Holliday though, is that she's not really that much of a singer.

[11:30] Ben Rimalower: I mean, it you know or an actor.

[11:33] Daniel Nolen: Okay, well, that's a separate category. But just but just even like going back to like me singing Kelly O'Hara. And it's like the thing is like, so Judy O'Hara, Judy O'Hara. Judy Holliday is like a comedian actress who like can sing, you know.

[11:51] Ben Rimalower: Like I would just I would compare her singing voice to like Jackie Hoffman's or Andrea Martin's, you know.

[11:56] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, she she can sing, she can sing well enough.

[11:59] Ben Rimalower: Well enough, you know. So it's true that if you're if you're gonna be like black and white about the universe and say all musical theater roles for women are either belters or sopranos, you certainly would not call Ella in Bells Are Ringing a soprano role.

[12:16] Daniel Nolen: So therefore you would say it's a belter role, you know.

[12:19] Ben Rimalower: But it's not really a part that requires like a belt.

[12:23] Daniel Nolen: So Kelly O'Hara is a better quote unquote belter than Judy Holliday is, you know.

[12:31] Ben Rimalower: For sure, yeah. I mean, I dare say one of my favorite sopranos who can't belt to save her life, Laura Benanti.

[12:40] Daniel Nolen: Laura Benanti could probably belt this role as well as Judy Holliday, you know.

[12:46] Ben Rimalower: Oh, for sure, yeah. It's just not, it really, like the word belt is a misnomer. It's in the alto range, it's not soprano, but it just doesn't require a woman to like really like have like big powerful, sustained money notes, you know.

[13:01] Daniel Nolen: There's a lot of mixing opportunities as well.

[13:04] Ben Rimalower: But like barely even mixing. It's like mixing for fun if you're bored. But like otherwise you could just sing it in chest voice and like it's easy.

[13:12] Daniel Nolen: Like, it's just not a hard part to sing. Like, so that's why I think Kelly O'Hara was so great, because it wasn't really like she had to like in South Pacific, she had to belt and she just didn't, you know.

[13:23] Ben Rimalower: Right, right. But here she didn't have to belt. Anyway, so that's all my preface to say that I had listened to the original Broadway cast album for years.

[13:31] Daniel Nolen: And um I knew that I loved her singing um like the opening number.

[13:38] Ben Rimalower: So it's not really the opening number, but her first song, "It's a Perfect Relationship."

[13:43] Daniel Nolen: And um, no, you know what? Now if I'm being honest, that's not really true.

[13:48] Ben Rimalower: I I knew I didn't get into it. I knew that I was supposed to like her and that she was an iconic legend, but I didn't get into those songs until I saw Faith Prince do the role.

[14:02] Daniel Nolen: Well, in the musical, I was so like I started watching the film last night, and it I oh I I literally forgot it was a musical because it it takes like 20 minutes for any sort of musical number to happen.

[14:15] Ben Rimalower: So I literally was like, oh, this reminds me of like uh Desk Set or Pillow Talk, like just like an old, you know, 60s romantic comedy.

[14:24] Daniel Nolen: And then she started singing, I was like so thrown off. I was like, oh right, I forget this is a musical.

[14:28] Ben Rimalower: Like I was really just missing some sort of big opening number.

[14:32] Daniel Nolen: Yes. Does the does the actual stage show have an opening number before "Perfect Relationship," or is that the first sh uh song in the show?

[14:40] Ben Rimalower: No, it has a song, "Bells Are Ringing," that's uh more of an opening number.

[14:44] Daniel Nolen: It's not a great opening number.

[14:46] Ben Rimalower: I mean But it needed something. I was just so like But the thing is also the st the I don't recall the stage show feeling so musicless in the first 20 minutes.

[14:57] Daniel Nolen: I feel like it gets to her song a little faster. Um maybe there's like I figured there was also gonna be some sort of uh or there was was maybe some sort of number with like the the answering service because they kind of started it like a commercial and then you kind of think like it's gonna be like the telephone hour, but it's not right.

[15:16] Ben Rimalower: It's like there's so much opportunity there.

[15:19] Daniel Nolen: But but the thing is though, I mean, the it in a way it's a there's a reason that I mistakenly just now called "Perfect Relationship" the opening number because even in the stage show, that first song "Bells Are Ringing," while it's much more substantial than the movie, it's not that fabulous or great.

[15:35] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[15:35] Daniel Nolen: But um, but the way that "Perfect Relationship" was filmed for this movie was complete shit.

[15:44] Ben Rimalower: Like, you know, people always my God, horrible.

[15:48] Daniel Nolen: Like the song on stage is like a fabulous establishing character number.

[15:53] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, it's like Miss Marmelstein.

[15:55] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, but it's like, I mean, you know, and Faith Prince, of course, like really belted that song.

[16:01] Ben Rimalower: Well, what does he look like?

[16:03] Daniel Nolen: I mean, you know.

[16:04] Ben Rimalower: Well, afterwards, I was so I was so traumatized that I like tried to cleanse the palate and I went and watched the Faith version, the clip of her doing on Rosie, and I was just so like, oh, thank god.

[16:14] Daniel Nolen: That's how it's supposed to be done.

[16:15] Ben Rimalower: Like she really did kill it.

[16:17] Daniel Nolen: No, no, but it's not her. It's the way they filmed it.

[16:19] Ben Rimalower: Like, they have her like looking off camera in this weird direction.

[16:24] Daniel Nolen: Like, it really makes you appreciate like the filmmaking like talent of somebody like Rob Marshall, you know, when they talk about like how like how like much thought he put into the concepts of like the way he like created, like the way he like uh filmed the musical Chicago, you know.

[16:41] Ben Rimalower: Mm-hmm.

[16:41] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, I mean, there were so many, there were so many awkward directing choices in this film.

[16:47] Ben Rimalower: I mean, we'll get into it.

[16:50] Daniel Nolen: This one immediately there was something off. I was like, this does not feel right.

[16:54] Ben Rimalower: Like it's literally, you know, you want her to move or like do something, and she just kind of stands up and then sits back down, and like the camera never moves, it never changes anything.

[17:05] Daniel Nolen: Like it would have been it's so like she needed to sing it to like other people, or you know, figure out some way to justify her singing it in the mirror or to the camera, or you know, but it was like she wasn't connecting with anybody, and that it's not her fault, you know.

[17:21] Ben Rimalower: But um, but it really lays a big turd and it sets the movie at a deficit that it can really never recover.

[17:28] Daniel Nolen: Yes, a definite deficit.

[17:30] Ben Rimalower: It's starting off, yeah, they're really doing themselves no favors, and then the whole time they're just trying to get back from that, and it's not really possible.

[17:37] Daniel Nolen: I mean, I'm kind of re gratified to know that you like hated it too, because I was a little worried that like maybe what I disliked so much was just that it was like this kind of like 1950s style movie that I just don't like, and maybe you do.

[17:51] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[17:52] Daniel Nolen: No, I mean, like, and and uh especially Vincente Minnelli, I mean the director, he you know, has created so many wonderful films like American in Paris, The Bandwagon, uh uh Meet Me in St. Louis.

[18:05] Ben Rimalower: Um, there's so many great films uh that are wonderful, and and he does such a good job with.

[18:12] Daniel Nolen: And so I was had high hopes for this one, and then it just didn't work.

[18:15] Ben Rimalower: Which no, it's a it's an awkward meeting of I think a few different things because it's it's like a 1950s Broadway musical comedy, which is very different from the stuff that he and I noticed it was produced by um Arthur Freed.

[18:30] Daniel Nolen: And I guess it's one of the last of the like old MGM musicals.

[18:36] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[18:36] Daniel Nolen: And like, but it's actually has not it's not like an MGM musical.

[18:40] Ben Rimalower: You know, when you talk about The Bandwagon or Meet Me in St. Louis, you're talking about um things that were conceived for the screen.

[18:50] Daniel Nolen: Right, right.

[18:51] Ben Rimalower: This was a stage show, and they didn't reconceive it.

[18:54] Daniel Nolen: It reminds me of the movie of The Producers that also needed to be reconceived in a way, you know, the movie of the musical, The Producers.

[19:02] Ben Rimalower: Yes, yes.

[19:03] Daniel Nolen: You know, and so it just doesn't work.

[19:05] Ben Rimalower: And um I mean, and even stuff like I don't even and again, I haven't seen the stage show, but I was also, I was like, this is Vincente Minnelli.

[19:12] Daniel Nolen: Like, do we not get any big dance numbers?

[19:14] Ben Rimalower: Do we not get any cool chorus numbers?

[19:17] Daniel Nolen: Like, it really was just like every character was just kind of park embarking in these single, like small room sets, and there was no thrill to it.

[19:26] Ben Rimalower: There was no, you know, it's a big screen technical or MGM musical with Vincente Minnelli at the helm.

[19:32] Daniel Nolen: It's like it should have had these big chorus numbers in New York on the street.

[19:36] Ben Rimalower: But that's the thing.

[19:37] Daniel Nolen: Like, this story is really just about a couple of people.

[19:40] Ben Rimalower: And like, I feel like, you know, if you wanted to have like a big chorus of people dancing, the story would have needed to be like opened up in a different way.

[19:49] Daniel Nolen: And they didn't do that.

[19:51] Ben Rimalower: And the only larger groups of people that are in this, you know, for example, like, I mean, it was actually pretty funny when they were doing that number when they were crossing the crowded sidewalk and everything, you know, the block box.

[20:04] Daniel Nolen: But like, but it was they it was blatantly not choreographed.

[20:06] Ben Rimalower: I mean, it was like something I would have staged in like college when I was directing musicals and didn't have a choreographer, you know.

[20:12] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, and I mean I love that, and then like the song he sings after that, where it's one continuous shot of him like jostling through the crowd.

[20:19] Ben Rimalower: I I enjoy those concepts, and it's a really interesting idea, but again, it's not choreographed at all.

[20:25] Daniel Nolen: Like, they're literally waiting like 15 minutes at a crosswalk.

[20:29] Ben Rimalower: I'm like, this is not believable.

[20:30] Daniel Nolen: But there was like it's like there was no big idea for Vincente Minnelli to connect to to make it.

[20:36] Ben Rimalower: Yes, and there was no, yeah, and it was no um bill, you know, it didn't have any sort of arc, it was just like this concept that he just beat until it was dead.

[20:46] Daniel Nolen: Well, and then totally, and then the other thing is like um the characters that exist that expand the story a little bit, like they're not um it the that whole plot of like the thing with the bookie service and like the B class is so forgettable, and like I didn't even know why that was in it, really.

[21:06] Ben Rimalower: It's well, it's like a sitcom episode, you know, and it's just like it made me realize that like, you know, I think there's a certain kind of old-fashioned musical comedy that was like allowed to be stupid.

[21:18] Daniel Nolen: Um to have a thin, flimsy plot like a sitcom, you know?

[21:23] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[21:23] Daniel Nolen: Because like people felt that it was worth it as an excuse to have these songs, you know.

[21:30] Ben Rimalower: And, you know, and when it's maybe when you're watching it on stage because there's such a thrill and an entertainment value, and having these big musical numbers performed live in front of you, it's on a different level of excitement.

[21:46] Daniel Nolen: But in this movie, they don't come alive like that.

[21:48] Ben Rimalower: So not at all, yeah.

[21:50] Daniel Nolen: You know, I mean, it like I said, it it's it's so reminiscent of other material from that era.

[21:57] Ben Rimalower: I mean, I guess on stage, the closest thing it reminds me of is like She Loves Me, just the whole idea of like these people who don't know each other, they're communicating one way, they don't know who they are when they meet in person, blah, blah, blah.

[22:08] Daniel Nolen: But it's also on, you know, at least on film, there's so many good examples of comedies.

[22:14] Ben Rimalower: Like I mentioned, Desk Set and Pillow Talk that kind of use that musical, uh not musical comedy, uh uh sitcommy feel to kind of create these situations where in the characters kind of fall in love via you know, mistaken identity, or they hate each other, then they love each other.

[22:31] Daniel Nolen: And so that's why, like, like when I said I first started watching it, that's kind of the vibe I was getting.

[22:37] Ben Rimalower: And then she starts singing, and it like really throws you off.

[22:40] Daniel Nolen: You're like, oh, wait, this is a musical, but it feels awkward.

[22:43] Ben Rimalower: Another scene that I felt like was so poorly directed and so ill-conceived was whenever they're in his apartment and she's getting him to write, and it cuts between her singing on the balcony and him singing at the desk.

[22:57] Daniel Nolen: But it's like you have to suspend your disbelief so entirely because it's like we're already suspending our disbelief whenever a character starts singing on screen.

[23:07] Ben Rimalower: But for the other character not to hear them at all when they're like 10 feet away, is just so weird.

[23:13] Daniel Nolen: And like, I was like, there are so many ways you could do this.

[23:16] Ben Rimalower: You could have her go in another room and start singing and then use like a split screen, like those old Doris Day Raw cuts and films to you know get them in a duet, or not just cut back and forth Rob Marshall style, but like don't No, clearly it's like so bad.

[23:33] Daniel Nolen: There's the listen, there are problems that are hard to solve, okay?

[23:36] Ben Rimalower: And like, and that and I like for the Into the Woods movie, I think that the Johnny Depp, the way the wolf was characterized, like was a disaster.

[23:47] Daniel Nolen: But it's like so random.

[23:49] Ben Rimalower: But unfortunately, I don't actually know how to do it well.

[23:53] Daniel Nolen: I just know that what they did was a failure, you know.

[23:56] Ben Rimalower: But I'll get you that it was a hard challenge.

[23:59] Daniel Nolen: But this stuff was not hard.

[24:01] Ben Rimalower: This was idiotic that it's not idiotic.

[24:03] Daniel Nolen: And it's like it's like Vincente Minnelli didn't even consider that a problem because he came from a different school of thought from those MGM musicals where the whole thing existed at this sort of heightened reality where you know the whole town could kind of get into the swell of Judy on the trolley singing the trolley song.

[24:23] Ben Rimalower: And it just lives in this like fairy tale land.

[24:26] Daniel Nolen: This doesn't live there.

[24:27] Ben Rimalower: This lived in a very realistic 1950s New York City.

[24:31] Daniel Nolen: Like, hey, don't dump your trash in front of my house.

[24:35] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, you know. And, you know, and it's like even Guys and Dolls, which is like about gangsters and all that, it's got this sort of like, you know, candy coated, like magical, you know, fairy tale uh world of that, you know.

[24:52] Daniel Nolen: The bandwagon as well. I mean, one of my very favorite musical numbers ever on screen is when at the beginning Fred Astaire is walking down 42nd Street and he does this huge song and dance number inside the Ripley's Believe It or Not. And it's so incredible because it's using what's already there, you know, in Times Square and 42nd Street, but it's creating this whole like fantasy land of it. And then later you it does a lot of, there's a lot of scenes kind of backstage preparing for a show. And so it creates this real um mystical world of the theater, you know. And I think he does have Vincent in this movie in Bandwagon, he captures the theater district and Times Square really wonderfully. Uh and I'm and I haven't seen the movie of Guys and Dolls, I'm I'm embarrassed to say, but I'm I'm uh sure he does it in that as well.

[25:40] Ben Rimalower: Um it's different though. I mean, you know, I look, Julie Stein is undoubtedly uh, you know, a huge, wonderful composer, with you know, uh, and we'll get into the songs in this too, but although I I should say I I uh he didn't direct Guys and Dolls. I that was a mistake. I should I uh Joseph Menkowitz directed Guys and Dolls. But you know, but it's but I'm just saying there's a difference though with Guys and Dolls with the material to begin with, you know, where Julie Stein is an uh uh you know a genius composer and melodist, you know.

[26:11] Daniel Nolen: Yes, and and you know, and Camden and Green were like funny and clever and all that, you know. But there's something but I there's something kind of hacky about their collaboration on this, you know, and it you it's unfair to compare it to Guys and Dolls, where you I feel like Frank Lesser truly out of inspiration, musicalized these characters, each one in an authentic way that created its own universe, you know.

[26:39] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, well, Guys and Dolls is also like a masterpiece.

[26:42] Daniel Nolen: It's a masterpiece. And these songs are nowhere near that. And what's funny is that, you know, it one of the things that's most remarkable about Bells are ringing, other than it being a star vehicle at the time for Judy Holliday, is that which worth mentioning, she I I saw that she and the comp Comden and Green were already in some like improv troop together or something. So they had history together, which is why I'm like, is that how she got the job? Like, is that how all this happened? She was a huge star before this.

[27:11] Ben Rimalower: I think their improv troupe was way before this, and this was their attempt years later. The improv was dead. They hadn't done the improv in years. This is them trying to like rekindle magic that is long ago burnt out, you know.

[27:24] Daniel Nolen: Right, that's what I mean. I'm like, there was some sort of um reasoning behind like they had some connection with her already. They weren't just like Judy Holliday. How she got the job. Like she had an Academy Award, you know, she was a huge star.

[27:38] Ben Rimalower: That's another that's another uh hold on, hold on. We'll get to Judy Holliday. Let's not let's not get to her yet. I just wrap up and just say that, like, you know, so uh in terms of the material, you know, we we've already talked about why the movie's a bad adaptation of it, you know. And and truthfully, maybe maybe this kind of sort of flimsy musical comedy from the 50s, you know, and I don't say flimsy to say it's not Sweeney Todd or Gypsy, you know. It, you know, one I I'm I would not call She Loves Me, which is from the 60s or Guys and Dolls, flimsy, because I think that there is a um a level of substance to the way that the writers went into the story. And that's not true of this. And and I've enjoyed it when I saw it live both times. So I think on stage the experience is sort of fleshed out by the live performance in a different way. You know, but maybe there was no way for that to happen in this movie, but Vincente Minnelli certainly failed.

[28:36] Ben Rimalower: But what I wanted to say was that it's it's it's noteworthy that what's remarkable about this piece, besides that it was a star vehicle for Judy Holliday, is that um uh so you know, Julie Stein is this sort of Toon Smith melodist, you know, and uh, you know, kind of maybe in some ways like a genius who was able to just kind of churn out these like hit songs. And and you know, and Comden and Green obviously have their, you know, special gift too. But so despite the sort of uh limited uh value of this piece in some ways, it's noteworthy that it did have two hit songs, which seems like two big hit songs, which seems like a lot from one show. Not to mention that a lot of other songs that have sort of like had a life outside the show within a musical theater and cabaret context, you know. And and I think that it's um that speaks to why the songs feel so undistinguished within the show, you know.

[29:35] Daniel Nolen: It's almost like this is the kind of show that somebody like Sondheim was like rebelling against, you know.

[29:40] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, exactly. Because the song is the way to put it. The songs could kind of be plugged into something else. I mean, and when that is its most successful, like a song like The Party's Over, you know, I mean, I can't tell you not to be cheesy, but there are like so many times in my own life when that song feels resonant to me. It's so it's so applicable to so many situations, you know. And so, you know, that's like it's wonderful that this beautiful song is has so many uh resonances outside the show. But it also means that there's something about all these songs that is a little bit generic. And when the songs are not generic, like with like the perfect system for like the bookies to have with their stuff, it just feels so like flimsy and and and useless, you know.

[30:34] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, I mean, yeah, all that boogie stuff. The the I mean, I guess the bookie uh song, and then later the name dropping song, which I actually really enjoyed the name dropping scene.

[30:44] Ben Rimalower: Me too, again, it's up my alley.

[30:46] Daniel Nolen: It's up your alley. Me too, too, you know. But it relies on like a novelty, you know, and it's like totally. You know, uh, I love the scene, but like, you know, after again, the novelty wears off, it's like, all right, I need something that's a little more of a meal.

[31:06] Ben Rimalower: Totally. Um and also um the uh oh, you just made me think of something. Um, that whole I think it's also just that the story, through no fault of its own, is that well, through fault of its own, because if it was like a piece of classic writing, it would stand the test of time. But you know, I think the show is just also very dated.

[31:28] Daniel Nolen: Like Yeah, I mean, it's and there's so many structural issues as well with just the the way it's laid out. It's so hard to follow.

[31:36] Ben Rimalower: Well, maybe the movie's harder. I don't know. The I the show didn't feel hard to follow to me, but but it's just it just feels dated, like, you know, this whole thing about like God forbid there are ladies of ill repute and like the detectives like you know judging them you know and it's like you know it's all just that whole like wink wink sex comedy of the 50s it's you know it's just so hideous you know um anyway but uh okay so we hate we think it's a very we don't think it's much of a musical and we think it's a complete failure as an adaptation um it's complete failure as an adaptation and I think this well before we go before we get into Judy Holliday because I think this is a kind of a natural trans transition but let's I know we we talked about maybe mentioning some of our favorite uh covers of these of these songs um you know I I think you you we already mentioned the Judy I think and that was the one I immediately knew of her cover um of just in time just in time you found me just in time and changed my lovely time lovely day uh and I also know there's a uh Carol Burnett uh does one on on her Carol Burnett sings album that I've listened to a lot um and then Barbara Streisand on the third album I believe does a really really beautiful slowed down version I found you just in time and changed my life.

[33:42] Daniel Nolen: I don't love that.

[33:43] Ben Rimalower: Oh, really?

[33:45] Daniel Nolen: Wow. I just love it at the end. She really, it just showcases her really, you know, that young barber mix that she does so well at the end, where she throws it up there.

[33:56] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I mean But it's very different. It's a very different um vibe. I mean, the you know, I was thinking about this, these songs. Like, I mean, those are the two songs that were like hit hits is just in time and the party's over. Like, for me, I mean, the first version of Just in Time that I knew was Judy Garland. Um, and I guess like gun to my head, that will still be my favorite. And um I actually was like, I was trying, you know, and I I the one that I have always listened to the most that just brought me like unending pleasure is the Judy Kune one. Um, which is the it's the opening track on her album of that name, just in time.

[34:41] Ben Rimalower: Just in time, I found you. Just in time before you came my time was running long. And um uh she does it as a medley with this other Julie Stein song. Um, It's been a long time. But it's but it's mostly just in time. And um it's, you know, Judy Kuhn uh doesn't always focus on like the full throttle, like old school belting. Um, but you know, I she certainly doesn't wake up in the morning and go, I wonder what Ben Rimmelauer would like me to belt today, you know. But but she really uh on that track, it is motherfucking enormous and it's so thrilling. So I really I love it so much. Um and uh, but I was I knew that the song was a hit, so I was like put on Twitter like asking people like what were the like most like successful pop versions, and uh because for some Wikipedia annoyingly like didn't like uh list it in a way that was useful to me.

Um so I guess like the biggest ones were like Tony Bennett and Peggy Lee and Frank Sinatra and Sarah Vaughn. Um so I listened to those. I mean, the thing about all those people is those are such iconic artists, and like all of their versions kind of sound like a Forbidden Broadway parody of them doing that song. Like, I mean, uh like the Sinatra one, I did like I have to say I kind of enjoyed the most of it, but it all just like drove me back to like Judy Garland. And one of our listeners, um, and one of our live stream uh frequent uh commenters, uh Macon Prickett, um, he recommended that I specifically listen to the Judy Garland one from Judy and Liza live at the Palladium, and um because she like belts it so hard at the end. And um, and she really does. It's almost like she has a time machine, and she like doesn't want me to think that um Judy Kune belts it more than she does.

[36:54] Daniel Nolen: Um and uh, but but I mean it is a song that, you know, I mean, the Judy, the I mean, the barber one is maybe the weirdest. But the Judy Garland one is pretty weird too. I mean, by the end, it's just kind of like full throttle belting the way I like it. But she goes through so many key changes and modulates, you know, modulates up and down and weird tempo changes. Um it's actually like the most bizarre. I mean, it's not as like freaky to the naked ear as Judy Garland's version of Come Rain or Come Shine. But yeah, but it actually, in a way, is even weirder than that because it's just so like back and forth and like bizarre, you know.

[37:36] Ben Rimalower: Yes, yes.

[37:37] Daniel Nolen: I I I feel that. Um yeah, I mean, that that one is is uh is like is a classic. I mean, uh, does she sing that at Carnegie Hall? How or is it just from the um uh TV show? Which one, which version do I know? Because I definitely don't know the London Palladium one.

[37:57] Ben Rimalower: You might though. Uh you will cart she does not do it at Carnegie Hall. She does do it on the TV show, I think more than once. Um, although, but I I think that the one from the Palladium with Liza, I mean this that track is not with Liza, but you know, um I think it's also the same one that was on one of the most common Judy Garland like CDs that you could get, like in the 90s. Maybe that's why I've heard it. I'm like, it was like the greatest hits.

[38:22] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, like I don't know if it was called The Capital Collection or Live at the Footlights or something. I get all those confused, but but I think that's the one that I actually heard the most in those days before I realized what it was even from. It's confusing because then the video of Judy and Liza at the Palladium is from a different, is a different night than the version that's on the album. Because I guess it was a two-night run. Anyway, um, but she also recorded a few other times. I think it's on one of her studio albums, and it's on um that live album that she did on Broadway, um, where she sings like Hey Look Me Over and like all that stuff.

[39:00] Ben Rimalower: Okay.

[39:02] Daniel Nolen: Uh so it's there's a lot of um Judy Garland versions, and I think they're all that same arrangement, and they're all, you know, essentially the same. It's just a matter of like, you know, what improvs she does for that little thing at the end with the like, you know, hey, you came along and changed my life, you know.

[39:21] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[39:22] Daniel Nolen: Um well, Judy Garland, Judy Kune. Okay, let's go into Judy Holliday. Because I have so much to say.

[39:31] Ben Rimalower: Okay, then we'll talk about the party's over after.

[39:33] Daniel Nolen: Okay, okay, okay. Um, so Judy Holliday, I I know before one of the reasons we wanted to do Bells of Ringing is because we both said we had a kind of a cultural blind spot with Judy Holliday.

[39:45] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[39:45] Daniel Nolen: And I have to say now that I I've seen this, I I realize why. Because there's for me, I found nothing memorable about her in this role. I found her performance to be completely one-dimensional and lacking and vapid, and I just found her so unlikable, so one note, and not even really a note at all. Because I couldn't even settle on what she was trying to do. Um I I I I I think this is such I could tell, you know, like this is such a star vehicle. And this was obviously such a star vehicle for her. I think she uh she won the Tony for this.

[40:27] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[40:27] Daniel Nolen: And I was just so shocked at how uninspired her performance was. I just thought she was awful. I mean, I'm sorry, I feel bad saying that because I I, you know, I want to support the ladies, but I I just really did not enjoy her.

[40:46] Ben Rimalower: I'm really worried for you.

[40:47] Daniel Nolen: And you know, I it was I I thought the movie was really bad. And I, you know, I don't think it like sold her. Um, but I'm worried for you because I feel like a lot of our listeners, especially like our older queens, are gonna be like extremely like you are really I know you were like in Ben Rimalower territory the way the way you're mouthing off about Judy Holliday. And they are gonna come for you and they're gonna come hard, Daniel. I'm warning you.

[41:14] Daniel Nolen: They really are.

[41:16] Ben Rimalower: But I listen, I'm willing to die on this hill. That's how strongly I feel about uh about uh her lack of a performance in this film.

[41:25] Daniel Nolen: I wonder if you're I wonder if the way you're making me feel is the way I make you or other people feel. Because like I feel like I have to defend her because I feel like you're wrong, even though I'm not like a hundred percent disagreeing with you.

[41:39] Ben Rimalower: I just feel like I mean please please defend her. I mean, this is interesting. It'd be interesting to hear the other side because I really just don't see any other way to say it.

[41:48] Daniel Nolen: I mean, I I literally cannot. I mean, the one thing I will say is I liked I liked Dean Martin a lot in this movie, and he's someone I've never been interested in, but I found him to be very charming and likable. But I found no redeeming qualities in her performance whatsoever.

[42:03] Ben Rimalower: There were a few times I was like, okay, like I can kind of see how she is curious.

[42:08] Daniel Nolen: You need to stop saying these blade these blanket statements about her because every time you say it, I feel like you're incurring more hate upon yourself.

[42:17] Ben Rimalower: I know, I know.

[42:18] Daniel Nolen: Do not say one more time how you saw nothing redeeming whatsoever. This is like, this is like really like digging a grave for you with some people.

[42:29] Ben Rimalower: I know, but it's I and I really just I have to speak my truth on this one.

[42:33] Daniel Nolen: Okay, okay. Your truth has been heard. Your truth has been heard. Now, like I said, it didn't work for me at all, you know.

[42:39] Ben Rimalower: But I um a lot of that I didn't blame on her, you know.

[42:43] Daniel Nolen: I feel like um, you know, I like to be like sorry, I just stopped.

[42:51] Ben Rimalower: Oh my god, I have so much more.

[42:54] Daniel Nolen: No, no, no, but you're just saying the same thing over and over again. I mean, it's like, and like I didn't, you know, it I didn't enjoy the movie at all, and the movie is mostly her. So, you know, but here's the thing. Like, I the way I always thought of that character, I always imagined the ideal person for a revival would be Annalie Ashford.

[43:13] Ben Rimalower: Totally.

[43:14] Daniel Nolen: All I was doing the whole thing was thinking of better casting.

[43:17] Ben Rimalower: Okay, well, that was I didn't mean that as far as an improvement on Judy Holliday. I meant like without having even ever seen this, you know, my concept of what I sort of had been told Judy Holliday was like, was that like was something like a and you know, as a matter of fact, when Annal Ashford was first kind of like really making her mark, people talked a lot about how she was like a Judy Holliday type, you know.

[43:42] Daniel Nolen: And what struck me watching this movie was that um it seemed to me that actually a lot of Judy Holliday's sort of like um comic stuff almost felt like a sexier Dorothy Louden. And I feel like that's not something that works in a movie per se. You know, it certainly didn't work in this movie. But like it, you know, it I felt like the kind of like um kind of like uh like joking with the audience style that I felt like, oh, I think that's what this must have been like live, you know.

[44:20] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I could tell she was trying to do that like um, you know, like elbow elbow wink wink type of thing.

[44:27] Daniel Nolen: And I was like, she's I mean, it it really is something that like Lucy did really well in I Love Lucy. She played all these kind of, you know, the scene where she goes to that really cool bar and there's all those uh uh showbills pasted on the walls and she talks with those like actor kids.

[44:43] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[44:44] Daniel Nolen: Like she was she had that like hat pulled down, she had her, you know, jeans on. She was doing, she was trying to do a character. She didn't do it well, but I was like, this is something that like Lucy could have killed. Like this is like a little character that Lucy did a lot on I Love Lucy. And so I get of that time period, like, you know, mid to late 50s, 1960, like this was a style of thing that performers did. And so I got what she was going for.

[45:09] Ben Rimalower: Right, but I'm telling you about like even in the song Just in Time, you know, like one, you know, one of the reasons that I didn't appreciate that song, um like in the old when I first like the first time I ever heard that song, to be honest, was uh was Judy Holliday and Sydney Chaplin, who played uh Dean Martin's part in the original cast. Speaking of Barbara Streisand. Um I didn't have the cast album. Someone had gotten me, I think my uncle, this like Broadway's greatest hits or something. And it was like one song from like every big musical of like a deck several decades, you know. It was like a four CD compilation, the Smithsonian, I think. And so the song from Bells Are Ringing was just in time.

And it starts with him being like, Justin Time, I found you, Justin Time. You know, and then she comes on and she's like, and it's like some weird ass, like, what the fuck is this like performance art, you know? Um I think it's very like intellectual, like supper club comedy, and it's the kind of thing that like Dorothy Louden, you know, would have like gotten a hundred laughs at. And I think Judy Holliday had done that more successfully in that nightclub circuit than Dorothy Loudoun even did, you know. And I think that they didn't find a way to make that work in the movie. And you know, I I think that you probably would have felt differently, Daniel, if you'd seen her do it on stage, you know.

[46:44] Ben Rimalower: And honestly, I want to give her the benefit of the doubt, in that I will say I'm sure she's one of those performers who is better when she has an audience to play off of, and that's you know, way different on film. She won the Oscar for Born Yesterday, which unlike this is considered a really you know brilliantly made film. Although I still have a lot of a lot of I also have a bone to pick with her for that, and I have a lot of baggage with that because I really am I I have a lot of ire towards her for that as well because she beat uh Betty Davis, who should have won for All About Eve, and Gloria and Gloria Swanson for Sunset Boulevard.

[47:20] Daniel Nolen: Right.

[47:21] Ben Rimalower: But I think just imagine just imagine, though, the fact that it was even nominated along with those movies. But I think the only reason she won, in my theory, is because Betty and Anne Baxter split the boat.

[47:34] Daniel Nolen: It doesn't matter, Daniel. She has an Academy Award. How many Academy Award nominations does Patty or Bernadette have? Zero. It's a fucking Academy Award nomination. Forget even the politics of why you think she won. Like, so, but a lot of people thought she and a lot of people thought she deserved it. I have a feeling that if we had watched that as our corn stream instead, we wouldn't be having a conversation about you hating Judy Holliday.

[47:57] Daniel Nolen: Maybe.

[47:57] Ben Rimalower: And this is to be fair, this is the only thing I've seen her in that I can think of. And this is, and I'm someone that came in with like a blanket respect for her and hasn't lost that at all. I just thought this movie sucked.

[48:10] Daniel Nolen: So that's that's all I'm trying to say. I think that this move look, I don't think this is a great musical. I think you could make an argument for it being a good musical. I'm talking about the stage musical. And I think that this is a piece of shit adaptation. I didn't do the research to see if it made money or not in its initial release or whatever, but there's a reason that it's been it did not make money at all. I think it's it was in debt.

[48:34] Ben Rimalower: Okay, perfect.

[48:35] Daniel Nolen: So there you go. So this is a flop film adaptation of a decent Broadway musical. And it is a decent Broadway musical that is dated and has aged poorly, and therefore this flop film adaptation is really useless now. And I think that it would probably it's probably a great tragedy for us to judge Judy Holliday by this, which does not serve her, you know.

[49:01] Ben Rimalower: Um, and also wasn't this her last film role?

[49:05] Daniel Nolen: She died from cancer.

[49:06] Ben Rimalower: She died very young.

[49:07] Ben Rimalower: So yes. Um, this was, I think, her very last film role. Um, so you know, it's a shame that it left you with that bad taste in your mouth about her. But I will say, I found it while the movie was, I thought, really, really bad. I enjoyed her in lots of the scenes. Um, like I said, I was expecting her to be like Emily Ashford-ish. And I was surprised by how Dorothy Loudon is shooting. I did think she was funny, but I thought it was gonna be all about just being in love with her and thinking she was like cute and quirky. And what I actually thought was like, oh, she's like actually like very weird in her comedy. Like, I kept thinking, like, I want to do like a weird downtown production of this with Erin Markey as her and Becca Blackwell as the guy, you know.

[50:02] Daniel Nolen: Oh, I like that.

[50:03] Ben Rimalower: Like, I just, you know, Dorothy Loudon just kept coming to mind. I just kept being like, oh, she's much weirder than I thought. Like, um, so that's that, that's what was my takeaway. And I'm very curious to see Born Yesterday, to see what she was all about when she was doing it. Yes, listeners who are Judy Holliday Queens, please like I'm I am willing to cleanse the palate, or I'm willing to be proven wrong about her. I just need recommendations. So I mean, Born Yesterday seems like a good place to start. Um, but you know, I mean she is such a legend, and so that's, I was so shocked that I didn't immediately love her. You know, because you go and you want to love her, and I knew I had a blind spot with her, so I was like, all right, all right, I'm gonna see what it's about. And then, you know, it pains me to say it, but I just I didn't get it.

[50:58] Daniel Nolen: Alright, well, we’ll put this to bed. I mean, we are gonna get back to you. The sad thing is that Daniel's probably gonna watch Born Yesterday, fall in love with it, fall in love with Judy Holliday, and say that this movie was a dud, and that's why.

[51:11] Ben Rimalower: I'm probably gonna watch it and be like, yep, I still hate old movies, and now I think I just don't like Judy Holliday. So we'll have to get back to you after we've seen that. Um, but just back to the score of this, because it is such those songs are so, so significant. Um, we talked about Just in Time. The other song that was a huge hit was The Party's Over. And all the big star versions that I listened to of that, the ones that were actually hits, like Peggy Lee and Nat King Cole and everything. In general, I felt that they were kind of along the same lines of what I said about Just in Time, where the stars kind of like just sounded like themselves singing that song.

[51:54] Daniel Nolen: Um, the I will say the Nat King Cole one, I just thought was like so beautiful that I kind of couldn't get enough of it.

[52:01] Ben Rimalower: Um, but it definitely sings sounds exactly the way you would imagine the Nat King Cole version of that song to sound. Um, the version that I really just like love so much. I think I've talked on the pod before about my favorite cabaret singer from the Bay Area, Meg McKay. Um, and she sings The Party's Over on her album Legally Blonde.

[52:25] Daniel Nolen: The Party's Over.

[52:31] Ben Rimalower: It's time to call it a day. They burst your pretty balloon. And take in the moon. And it's, uh, is that what it's called?

[52:55] Daniel Nolen: Legally Blonde?

[52:56] Ben Rimalower: Now I'm doubting myself.

[52:58] Daniel Nolen: I know.

[52:58] Ben Rimalower: That's a bold choice, though. Uh, wait, what's the name of the album?

[53:03] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, Legally Blonde.

[53:04] Ben Rimalower: Well, look, the album is from the 90s. It's before there was a movie or a musical called Legally Blonde. Um, she had a good idea.

[53:12] Daniel Nolen: Uh, well, and I think they're both, I think the original joke was made by, um, what's her name? Uh, goddamn it.

[53:19] Ben Rimalower: Mae West.

[53:21] Daniel Nolen: Um, but uh anyway, uh, but I love Meg McKay's version, but you know, it is a beautiful song. Um, and everybody sings it.

[53:30] Ben Rimalower: Um, you know, I did recognize this song, but I couldn't think of maybe it's Meg, who I've heard sing it on one of your playlists when you've played them when I've been with you. But I was like, I recognize this song, but I couldn't tell you where. And even after researching it online, I was like, I don't know any of these versions. You know, I'm so surprised. I would think maybe I'm not gonna be able to do one of them just like playing around. It's not one of my go-to's.

[53:54] Daniel Nolen: It's, I mean, it's the song is one of the, I mean, part of what I love about it, it's so, I don't want to say generic, it's so universal that like it is very universal. I and you know it reminds me almost like of a Jerry Herman song in the way just in this one way, that it's so like melodic and universal that you kind of feel like you know it as soon as you hear it. Um, it's different, but I also conflate it a lot with a song I do know and love, uh, The Masquerade is Over, which um I believe Nancy Wilson had a hit with, which I do listen to a lot.

[54:27] Ben Rimalower: So, well, another song in the score that's actually not in the movie that I was actually confused about was uh the song Long Before I Knew You, which I realized that I love that song so much. And I did one point I did a top 10 Julie Stein songs for Playbill, and I included it, and pretty much everybody was like, What is wrong with you? That is such a nothing song. And I really, and I've now gone back and like listened to the original cast recording of like Sydney Chaplin singing it and Judy Holliday singing it, and they were right. It is a nothing song. And the reason I love it so much is Lori Beechman's version.

[55:09] Daniel Nolen: And like, oh yeah, see, I love that.

[55:11] Ben Rimalower: Although Judy Kune does it as a medley with The Party's Over, which is also incredibly beautiful. Um, but Lori Beachman's one is like so soulful and special, and I live for it, but annoyingly there's something messed up with her music that you can't get it anymore.

[55:33] Daniel Nolen: Uh, what do you mean you can't get it anymore?

[55:35] Ben Rimalower: Like it's not, do you not have it downloaded?

[55:38] Daniel Nolen: I do, and like my iTunes won't play it, and it's not anywhere. It's like I think like there's, I don't understand what happened.

[55:47] Ben Rimalower: Uh, I know you're new to Spotify. Is Lori Beachman, is there a lot of her on Spotify or no?

[55:52] Daniel Nolen: I would figure not.

[55:53] Ben Rimalower: No.

[55:54] Daniel Nolen: No, I feel like iTunes and Spotify, Apple Music and Spotify are the same in terms of what they have.

[55:59] Ben Rimalower: Like the same, like, uh, yeah, yeah.

[56:01] Daniel Nolen: That makes sense.

[56:03] Ben Rimalower: Um, so, uh, that's a big bummer. I mean, I do have like the CD maybe somewhere, so I will get it back, but um, but Lori Beachman's music deserves to be available for the masses.

[56:14] Daniel Nolen: Um, it sure does.

[56:16] Ben Rimalower: I mean, she's someone I think, um, also, you know, uh, like we said with Judy Holliday, gone too soon. But um, she's someone who I think a lot of people have a blind spot with as well because um, you know, we know her from her stage roles, but I mean she was so young that she never really, I mean, certainly never made the jump to film, but like even playing all these kind of big leading roles that she could have played eventually, uh, she never had a chance to.

[56:42] Daniel Nolen: So she did make a little jump to film because Lori Beachman is uh, sing is one of the three girls singing Black Boys in the movie of Hair.

[56:52] Ben Rimalower: Really?

[56:53] Daniel Nolen: Yes.

[56:53] Ben Rimalower: I did not know that.

[56:54] Daniel Nolen: Although I don't even think I've seen that movie, but I love Hair.

[56:57] Ben Rimalower: That would be a good QuaranStream, actually.

[57:01] Daniel Nolen: Um, actually that would be, I've never seen it. One of the other black, uh, white girls that sings Black Girls, sings Black Boys with her, is um, Ellen Foley.

[57:09] Ben Rimalower: And um, do you know who Ellen Foley is?

[57:12] Daniel Nolen: No, I know that name.

[57:13] Ben Rimalower: Ellen Foley.

[57:15] Daniel Nolen: So Ellen Foley, um, she, well, speaking of pop music, she did that famous uh song with Meatloaf, Paradise by the Dashboard Lights, I think is the one.

[57:26] Daniel Nolen: I do not know it.

[57:27] Ben Rimalower: But she was on the 80s sitcom Night Court.

[57:30] Daniel Nolen: Um, okay.

[57:32] Ben Rimalower: Like the love interest for the first couple seasons.

[57:35] Daniel Nolen: Then she was replaced by Marky Post.

[57:37] Ben Rimalower: Um, and Ellen Foley um was the original witch in Into the Woods in the old at the old Globe Playhouse.

[57:47] Daniel Nolen: Um, and I like, I love that.

[57:49] Ben Rimalower: Uh, and then when they brought it to Broadway, of course, they replaced her with Bernadette.

[57:54] Daniel Nolen: Um, but then Ellen wound up being the final witch in the Broadway run of Into the Woods.

[58:02] Ben Rimalower: And well, she had a few other Broadway credits, but also she, you know that um haunting you musical that Patty's in, that crazy ghost video.

[58:13] Daniel Nolen: No, haunting you.

[58:15] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah, you've seen this.

[58:16] Daniel Nolen: That love cycle, a soap opera, that crazy.

[58:19] Ben Rimalower: Oh, at the laundromat.

[58:20] Daniel Nolen: Yes.

[58:21] Ben Rimalower: Oh, yes.

[58:21] Daniel Nolen: Ellen Foley is one of the other women.

[58:24] Ben Rimalower: Oh, well, that's you buried the lead.

[58:25] Daniel Nolen: That's her first credit.

[58:27] Ben Rimalower: Her biggest credit.

[58:29] Daniel Nolen: Um, well, I love that. I'm gonna have to check out Ellen Foley.

[58:32] Ben Rimalower: I'm gonna have to do more research on Judy Holliday. Do not come for me, Queens.

[58:36] Daniel Nolen: Or do, and I'm totally wanting to, you know, see stuff I will actually enjoy her in.

[58:42] Ben Rimalower: I'm literally having anxiety about how people are going to react to the way you want it.

[58:49] Daniel Nolen: That'll be fine.

[58:50] Ben Rimalower: That'll be fine. It's not like I said anything bad about Judy Garland.

[58:54] Daniel Nolen: Um, I literally just salt over my shoulder.

[58:58] Ben Rimalower: Please, please, please.

[59:00] Daniel Nolen: Um, alright. Well, I think, I mean, I have to say I do, I did enjoy, uh, even though I hated the film, I really love watching old musicals, especially the ones kind of in the technical era because they're so luscious, a treat for the eyes and the ears. Um, I think maybe we'll do White Christmas next month. We talked about it, which is like an actual, like really, really wonderful, wonderful film adaptation.

[59:25] Ben Rimalower: Um, so yeah, I mean, I am kind of itching to go watch more musicals now. I know you said you hadn't seen The Bandwagon. That was one I watched recently that I really enjoyed.

[59:33] Daniel Nolen: Um, of course, Meet Me in St. Louis is kind of a Christmas film, so that's another one maybe I'll rewatch.

[59:39] Ben Rimalower: Anyway, but uh, and who knows, maybe we'll, we'll uh speaking of Christmas movies, full circle.

[59:46] Daniel Nolen: I just realized what I love cock and balls from.

[59:50] Ben Rimalower: What?

[59:51] Daniel Nolen: Do you know that Adam Sandler cartoon about Hanukkah, Eight Crazy Nights?

[59:55] Ben Rimalower: Oh, Eight Crazy Nights, yeah.

[59:56] Daniel Nolen: That’s what it's in. They keep saying cock and balls.

[1:00:00] Ben Rimalower: I know I said that recently when we were together, and you really enjoyed it, so I'm trying to use it more.

[1:00:06] Daniel Nolen: Well, it's all come full circle now, from Thanksgiving to Hanukkah to Christmas.

[1:00:10] Ben Rimalower: That's right.

[1:00:12] Daniel Nolen: Alright. Well, I am thankful for you, Ben, and our podcast and our listeners, and um, yeah, I want to be thankful for Judy Holliday one of these days.

[1:00:22] Ben Rimalower: We will keep you guys posted on Daniel's Journey.

[1:00:24] Daniel Nolen: Yes, my Judy Journey.

[1:00:26] Ben Rimalower: Ah!

[1:00:27] Daniel Nolen: Um, alright. Well, thank you guys for listening. Um, please tune in on Tuesday to our live stream. I'm sure we'll be talking more about this, and we have Ben's new clip that he's going to play for us, which I cannot wait for.

[1:00:41] Ben Rimalower: Um, thanks for listening to Ben Rimalower's Broken Records on Broadway World.

[1:00:52] Daniel Nolen: For more episodes, visit Broadway World, iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever podcasts do be.

[1:00:58] Ben Rimalower: This episode was edited by me, Daniel Nolen. Thanks to Emmy winning composer and lyricist Lance Horn for the Broken Records theme song.

[1:01:05] Daniel Nolen: Follow us both, Ben Rimalower and Daniel Nolen on all y'all's socials.

[1:01:09] Ben Rimalower: That's Ben Rimalower. B-E-N R-I-M-A-L-O-W-E-R.

[1:01:15] Daniel Nolen: And that's Nolan with an E, not Nolan with an A.

[1:01:18] Ben Rimalower: Because Nolan with an A, is an A.

[1:01:20] Daniel Nolen: Absolutely.