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[0:07] Ben Rimalower: As Patty's Reno Sweetie used to say. The world has gone a little at a day, so let's look at Broadway in a broader way. With rods like Liza, bet and stretch. We're too big through a Maryland based couple. Cast offs. We're gonna give it to you straight a couple. Cast offs. Whose favorite thing to do is to appreciate let's name that belt and feel the thrill of another housing round of Dolly concert kill at Castles.

[0:57] Ben Rimalower: With Ben and Daniel. Who do you think you are? Welcome to Cast Offs on Broadway Podcast Network. I am very excited to be here. I'm Ben Rimalower with my lovely co-host Daniel Nolen.

[1:12] Daniel Nolen: Hey y'all, we are so excited to be joined by our lovely guest today, a fellow Southern boy just like me. Southern man, if I'm looking at this bearded daddy on screen in front of me correctly. And it's wonderful actor, writer, just honestly a legend, Jeffery Self. We're so excited to have you.

[2:33] Jeffery Self: Thanks for having me, guys.

[2:33] Ben Rimalower: Where are you from in the South?

[2:33] Jeffery Self: Well, Oklahoma, it's kind of not, it's not the technical South, but I mean it is.

[2:33] Daniel Nolen: That's uh I mean that's southern.

[2:33] Jeffery Self: I don't really I don't consider it. Culturally, culturally, maybe not geographically.

[2:33] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely. I mean, at least you guys have a musical named after you, so I feel like that doesn't count.

[2:33] Jeffery Self: That makes you not count as a lot of people.

[2:33] Daniel Nolen: I know. For such a red state, it's crazy because we're the only state with a show tune for our state song.

[2:33] Ben Rimalower: Is that the official state song?

[2:33] Jeffery Self: Yes.

[2:33] Ben Rimalower: I love that.

[2:33] Jeffery Self: It sure is. And all the football games, they sing it and play it. So it's really just um incentive to get you to those games, really.

[2:33] Daniel Nolen: If you're a Roger and Hammerstein kind of person, hold on. I'm trying to pick up my dog to put it in my lap so he stops. Oh, there we go. There he is.

[2:33] Ben Rimalower: What's your doggy's name?

[2:33] Jeffery Self: This is Chewy. She just got a summer haircut.

[2:33] Daniel Nolen: That's kind of how my hair looks during the summer, too.

[2:31] Jeffery Self: Yeah, it's very cute. Um anyway, thanks for having me guys.

[2:35] Ben Rimalower: Well, we had to have you when we decided to do a um fantasy casting draft of MAME.

[2:42] Daniel Nolen: Yeah. Obviously, the first person I thought of, well, was Angela Lansbury, but she was not available.

[2:47] Jeffery Self: Yeah.

[2:48] Daniel Nolen: And then I thought of you. And I know you're a MAME fan for life.

[2:52] Jeffery Self: I'm a MAME fan for life.

[2:54] Ben Rimalower: Do you think just going back to Angela Lansbury for a second? Do you think she's ever been on a Zoom or like something like whatever this is?

[3:02] Jeffery Self: I think she definitely has. Yes. And I'll tell you why. I don't know if I've told this story in the pod before, but Ben and I were in Provincetown doing our show last September, and we were wearing our broken records Patty LuPone P Town PS for Patty shirts merch.

[3:21] Jeffery Self: And so, you know, all these gays were coming up to us complimenting us at tea. And one of the ones who came up to us, we got to talking with him, and he told us he is Angela Lansbury's assistant.

[3:32] Ben Rimalower: Oh my goodness.

[3:33] Jeffery Self: Well, in my bag back at the hotel, I have my Murder, She Wrote crop top. I'm gonna wear it tomorrow. Would you take a photo of me and send it to Angela? And he was like, of course.

[3:42] Jeffery Self: So the next day I wear it and I find him. He takes a photo of us and sends it to her. And then as he's like typing like the explanation, like this is my friend Daniel, he loves you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like a split second later, she replies like a paragraph of text, and she's like, Oh my god, I love it. How are you, Tom? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[4:01] Ben Rimalower: So she had obviously been like already on her phone, um, you know, playing Words with Friends or whatever.

[4:08] Jeffery Self: So apparently she is very tech savvy.

[4:12] Daniel Nolen: Oh, she was like um reaction emojiing. I mean, she was like very I wouldn't be surprised if she was on TikTok.

[4:18] Jeffery Self: It was really that really shocks me.

[4:22] Daniel Nolen: Anyway, all right, going back to MAME. Um, but that's that I'm glad to know that Angela Lansbury's plugged in technologically.

[4:29] Jeffery Self: She should get one of those uh, what's it called? Cameos.

[4:31] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, she I she can make a lot of money.

[4:34] Jeffery Self: I mean, I would pay top dollar. I'm sure she's really struggling for cash right now.

[4:38] Daniel Nolen: Well, she could raise money for Broadway Cares or something.

[4:41] Jeffery Self: That's true, that's true. For the cause. Now, Jeffery, have you ever seen MAME on stage?

[4:46] Jeffery Self: Yes, I so the first time I ever saw MAME on um probably I think before I even saw the movie, even, um, was the a high school in my hometown did MAME when I was a kid.

[4:58] Jeffery Self: A high school. Which is such a weird high school choice. And so the first time I ever saw MAME was in a black box theater.

[5:07] Jeffery Self: Which is wild. Probably like 90 seats. Um, my cousin Drew was Beauregard. Remember, he he was really frustrated because he was like the star of the community theater, I mean of the high school theater, so he was really frustrated that they were doing MAME because not a lot for him to do.

[5:22] Jeffery Self: They did My Fair Lady the next year, and he got to play Henry Higgins. Um he was great. But um the shout out to cousin Drew.

[5:29] Daniel Nolen: Shout out to Drew's Henry Higgins, folks.

[5:31] Jeffery Self: Still thinking about it, still talking about it. But um though yeah, they did MAME and I remember loving it, and I remember though thinking that like why isn't there a set?

[5:44] Jeffery Self: They didn't have a set at all. Like it was just like MAME on a bare stage. I think there was like maybe a staircase, but otherwise, MAME on a bare stage with teenagers, but I still came away being like this is a great fucking show.

[5:57] Daniel Nolen: And then I very quickly thereafter rented the movie and obviously watched the the Vaseline movie.

[6:05] Jeffery Self: The musical, uh the MAME Musical or Anti-MAME.

[6:08] Daniel Nolen: Oh, oh, oh so sorry. Um the the musical.

[6:11] Jeffery Self: And then though, when I was when I was in high school, um, there was this like dinner theater that like existed, sort of about like 45 minutes outside of my town.

[6:23] Jeffery Self: And it was like in this like weird old building. It was in no like was sort of like a half antique store, but like upstairs they did like dinner theater, but it was like this sort of like display of antiques, but people would sit there and it would like eat really bad food.

[6:38] Jeffery Self: But they would do um they would do like music like the plays that musicals were based on. Like so they did like the they did like the play of whatever Oklahoma's based on the Green Grow the Lilacs.

[6:49] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[6:50] Jeffery Self: Like they did that, and they did um The Matchmaker, obviously. And they did a bunch of them. So though when I was like 16, they did Anti-MAME and they let me direct it.

[7:03] Jeffery Self: Um and so not only did I direct Anti-MAME, I because that's uh I don't know if you've ever looked at that script. It's very dense. It's lots of characters, lots of settings. Really not good to produce in an upstairs with antique store.

[7:17] Jeffery Self: And um, but uh so I like condensed it, but not only did I direct it, I played Older Patrick, and um very, very, very, very inappropriately played Ito the butler.

[7:32] Daniel Nolen: I'm I'm sure there I I often wonder if there's like a video or anything.

[7:36] Jeffery Self: I hope there isn't. I hope there isn't, but I kind of wonder if there isn't. But um the but I yeah, so I that was I got really into Anti-MAME at that time.

[7:47] Jeffery Self: Um and then um I don't think I've ever seen a professional production. I mean I've seen like bootlegs. I think I watched the like bootleg of Ebersole or at least clips of it.

[7:57] Daniel Nolen: I've seen clips of obviously Baranski.

[8:00] Jeffery Self: Um was it Juliet Prouse at Hollywood Bowl? Who was it at Hollywood Bowl?

[8:03] Daniel Nolen: No, it was Michelle Lee.

[8:06] Jeffery Self: Um and Ebersole as Vera.

[8:08] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[8:09] Jeffery Self: Oh a great switch switcheroo. Um what was your first MAME experience?

[8:18] Daniel Nolen: Well, I remember watching the both movies as a kid. Um and um sort of conflating them in my mind because Roz Russell was also in the gypsy movie that I had seen.

[8:30] Daniel Nolen: So it kind of MAME and gypsy were just kind of like one thing in my head.

[8:36] Jeffery Self: Yeah.

[8:37] Daniel Nolen: And I uh I remember the thing loving the things that I um remember about it, but I probably got bored when I was older and tried to like you know sit through it again.

[8:49] Daniel Nolen: But um I have not I I feel I I intend to continue lying as I have been, that I saw the production at the Alex Theater in Glendale in 1993, starring Terry Ralston as Mame with um oh god, what's her name? Gresham Weiler as Vera.

[9:06] Jeffery Self: But you definitely told you told me you that you saw that.

[9:11] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, I really I mean I leaned pretty hard on that lie, but it's it's actually not true.

[9:16] Daniel Nolen: And I need to say it again because I might want Terry Ralston to do one of our live shows. So I'm I intend to stick to that story, but it's not actually the case.

[9:25] Jeffery Self: I didn't see it, and I've never seen it.

[9:28] Daniel Nolen: Really?

[9:30] Jeffery Self: Never never.

[9:31] Daniel Nolen: Well, people don't really do it. I mean it's too expensive.

[9:34] Jeffery Self: I mean, they don't have the creativity to do it on a bare stage and double cast the director as young Patrick and Ito.

[9:43] Daniel Nolen: No one's bold enough.

[9:44] Jeffery Self: No one's bold enough. It's also like, yeah, there's like too I guess there's like just too many people in it.

[9:49] Daniel Nolen: Also, I would imagine uh it probably does it hold up like you kind of need like a full rewrite of the book, probably.

[9:58] Jeffery Self: Yeah, as long as Harvey doesn't do it.

[10:00] Daniel Nolen: Oh I mean, I was just thinking about that uh when I was uh washing my hair earlier and listening to the recording.

[10:08] Jeffery Self: It really does need like a full ensemble, full, full orchestra. Like someone with a lot of money like Lincoln Center is the one who needs to do it because I don't want them cutting any corners.

[10:19] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, I don't want like I don't want Vera you know playing the clarinet or anything.

[10:25] Jeffery Self: Certainly not.

[10:26] Daniel Nolen: Oh god. It is it is just I think another reason though, besides the budget that it hasn't been done is because it is so hard to cast.

[10:35] Jeffery Self: I mean, I I think we were talking about this maybe at our show or maybe at dinner or something, Daniel. Like that, but though I think sometimes if I could go back in time and see one musical, I would see MAME.

[10:48] Jeffery Self: Even though like part of me wants to see Merman and Gypsy or Patty and Evita, like I feel like I know what those were like, you know.

[10:55] Daniel Nolen: Right.

[10:56] Jeffery Self: Yeah. And there's so many other good ones available also.

[10:59] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[11:00] Jeffery Self: And I I totally. And I feel like there's something that's still missing in my mind about Angela as MAME.

[11:08] Jeffery Self: Like when I watch Roz Russell, and she's so just like brilliant and like incinerating on all those like innuendos and like where she's like insulting somebody but they don't even know it, you know.

[11:19] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[11:20] Jeffery Self: So Eve Arden, you know.

[11:21] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[11:22] Jeffery Self: And like I can't imagine Angela that way, but obviously she had some quality that, you know, I I sort of instinctively know most of our ladies lack, but I'm not really sure what it is.

[11:36] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, I mean, I don't uh every time I picture Angela in MAME, I don't I mean, this is maybe a controversial thing to say, but I'm like, I don't think she's like, I don't think she's like the ideal choice for it.

[11:48] Jeffery Self: Um I have many a time said um to Cole Scola um that I think it should be reversed that Carol Channing should have been MAME and Angela should have been the original Dolly.

[12:05] Daniel Nolen: Oh wow because I believe like I believe Carol as like a former flapper, you know?

[12:13] Jeffery Self: Like I pick I can see her being this like former party, this like party girl, this like lady that everybody wants to be like jazz baby.

[12:22] Daniel Nolen: Jasmine, yeah.

[12:23] Jeffery Self: Whereas, and I can imagine like Angela being this like lady that everybody goes to for like to do their fit to for their problems and to solve everything for them and to leave everything to her.

[12:35] Daniel Nolen: Um like I I don't believe that Carol Channing is like capable of hand like juggling that many balls as as Sally Levi.

[12:43] Jeffery Self: Like all that stuff she says she can do at the beginning I'm like bitch can't do any of that.

[12:47] Daniel Nolen: Yeah she's a mess.

[12:48] Jeffery Self: Whereas Angela Lansbury, you're like, oh yeah yeah yeah she's got it under control.

[12:53] Daniel Nolen: That's hilarious.

[12:54] Jeffery Self: She's I also think though you saying that about Angela I do think that's kind of going back to what Ben's saying about we just don't have the context for Angela in that sort of role like because we really know her like kind of like Dottie daffy Angela like in you know Dear World or Death on the Nile or as Mrs. Lovett and then we know like grandmotherly comforting Angela with like with like Murder, She Wrote but we really don't know like you know classy smart like sleek and uh you know upper crust Angela.

[13:27] Jeffery Self: Yeah because I'm also like I believe like isn't the whole thing with Mame that like how is this person gonna be a parent and it's like with Angela I'm like oh you're she's so maternal like she's such a Mrs. where again Carol Channing I'm like don't leave a baby with that. Like she'll eat it. But that might be like what's also probably dated about the show. Like I feel like it's not so much that she's like a mess as much as that like she's not conservative. Like you know I think maybe we can't relate to what is considered like not responsible about her. Because like we are, it's very easy for us to imagine like a progressive single woman as a good parent, but maybe that really is just what they couldn't deal with.

[14:14] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, that's probably that's probably the case.

[14:18] Ben Rimalower: Well, why don't we get into it and see who'll see what comes up? Uh so I guess first up is the much coveted role of Gloria Upson.

[14:29] Jeffery Self: Who the lady that played that in the movie, I forget her name, she just died, right?

[14:33] Daniel Nolen: Oh, is she uh she's the one who plays Vicky in Parent Trap?

[14:36] Jeffery Self: Yes, she just died like a week ago.

[14:38] Ben Rimalower: Oh, R.A.P., I love her. She's the perfect like bitch, like woman you love to hate.

[14:43] Daniel Nolen: A perfect tribute from three men who can't remember her name.

[14:47] Jeffery Self: Um I've never seen Parent Trap.

[14:50] Daniel Nolen: I barely remember the woman.

[14:51] Jeffery Self: It's not for me.

[14:52] Daniel Nolen: I don't think it's for either of us.

[14:53] Jeffery Self: Haley Mills goes over my head.

[14:55] Ben Rimalower: Oh, I love Haley Mills. I appreciate I'm glad she existed or exists, but I it's not, it's it's not my it's not my cup of tea. But um, okay, Gloria Upson. I mean, such a good role, such um really top draw. Really top draw. Um, hmm. I mean, like, now like if I were casting it like with someone alive at this moment, like I feel like um Chloe Feynman would be um really spectacular. She'd get the laughs, she'd get the laughs. I feel like that's the kind of role, too, that you want someone like a Chloe Feynman who can come in and just like like what the fuck just happened? She's just walked away with the whole show. Um, I feel like a Chloe Feynman as Gloria would be um a stellar choice. So well done. I love it.

[15:48] Daniel Nolen: Do you want me to go next then and then you'll get the double?

[15:51] Jeffery Self: Sure.

[15:52] Daniel Nolen: Um, well, in a similar vein, my choice for Gloria Upson would be a young Reese Witherspoon. So like I love these choices. Like election, like election era Reese.

[16:07] Jeffery Self: Totally.

[16:08] Daniel Nolen: Uh just like really. I mean, she played, she played um Rachel's sister on Friends.

[16:13] Jeffery Self: Yeah, yeah.

[16:14] Daniel Nolen: Oh yeah, it's very that.

[16:16] Jeffery Self: Very that like kind of comes in just like kind of spoiled and you know, uh uh but really funny and and gets the laughs. So I'm so into this. Um God, my choices for this are so basic. I want to shoot myself. And you guys have made me realize just how humorless and miserable not only is my Mame production gonna be, but possibly the rest of my natural born life. Um my first choice for Gloria Upson is um the unnamed Gummer, Louisa Jacobson from The Gilded Age.

[16:54] Jeffery Self: I do like a Gummer.

[16:55] Daniel Nolen: I don't hate that.

[16:56] Jeffery Self: I don't hate that. I do like throwing a Gummer a bone.

[16:59] Ben Rimalower: I like I like throwing a Gummer.

[17:01] Jeffery Self: Yeah. I mean, I I also love having a Gummer involved. Like, you know. It means Meryl will come see it. You know, stick with me, you guys, because my second choice for Gloria Upson was Mamie Gummer, and my third you cottage to just for the name. And my third choice for Gloria Upson was Grace Gummer. So I'm guaranteeing a Gummer. Gotta get a Gummer.

[17:20] Daniel Nolen: I think it's good. I mean, I think it sounds like your production is definitely a little more um top drawer.

[17:29] Jeffery Self: Yeah, I just think maybe a little like less, you know, human.

[17:32] Ben Rimalower: Listen, Bart Cher is gonna direct it at Lincoln Center. So I'm the one who's actually in the pocket.

[17:37] Jeffery Self: It's a bit stark, but um I'm I'm fine with it. I mean, you know, she's only one, she's ultimately one scene, so you could you could there are ways to save that production?

[17:48] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, thank you.

[17:49] Jeffery Self: Yeah, and she and she would definitely be available.

[17:52] Daniel Nolen: They're definitely available.

[17:54] Ben Rimalower: Well, okay, so now I go next. And are the Upsons we do as a couple in one fell swoop?

[18:00] Jeffery Self: Yeah, let's do them as a couple.

[18:02] Ben Rimalower: Okay, so um now you guys turned me on so much with your like comedy choice, uh uh, especially like um maybe I mean I kind of like the idea of uh early Ots Reese best, but I think um Chloe Feynman feels gettable, and so maybe sticking with the Chloe Feynman choice in my mind as Gloria, I would cast as her parents, Bill Hader and Kristen Wiig.

[18:30] Jeffery Self: Ooh, I like them.

[18:31] Daniel Nolen: I like them doing that.

[18:33] Jeffery Self: Just the douche family.

[18:36] Daniel Nolen: That's hilarious.

[18:38] Jeffery Self: That's hilarious. Um for mine, I chose uh Blythe Danner and Leslie Jordan.

[18:47] Daniel Nolen: That's just like really leaning into the comedy.

[18:50] Jeffery Self: That's really fun.

[18:52] Daniel Nolen: Genius. Has he ever been has Mr. Upson ever been played like as a fucking like screaming queen before?

[19:00] Jeffery Self: I don't know.

[19:02] Daniel Nolen: But it's all I want.

[19:03] Jeffery Self: Yeah, that's real good.

[19:04] Ben Rimalower: And with Blythe Danner, because I also feel like Blythe Danner's tall, so like she's very tall, very tall. Usually that's a really good combo.

[19:12] Jeffery Self: I yeah. This is insane because can you imagine if Barbara Streisand comes to see this show? And like she's always wishing she were Blythe Danner's part, and yet, like she's not gonna wish that she wasn't Mame. She's not gonna wish she was Mrs. Upson, but like she might.

[19:32] Daniel Nolen: Wait, does Barbara Streisand have like a thing about Blythe Danner?

[19:36] Jeffery Self: I just feel like when they were together in um Prince of Tides and when they were together in like Meet the Fockers.

[19:43] Daniel Nolen: Oh right.

[19:43] Jeffery Self: I just feel like all Barbara ever wanted was to be just like the like elegant blonde wasp woman, just you know, yeah, casually just giggling in a girlish way on the side.

[19:55] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[19:56] Jeffery Self: Yeah, absolutely. I didn't I did not think about that.

[20:00] Ben Rimalower: But yeah. Um okay, my choice. I can't remember this lady's name, but bear with me. Did you guys ever see um The New Adventures of Old Christine?

[20:11] Daniel Nolen: That sitcom with Julia Louis-Dreyfus.

[20:13] Jeffery Self: Like, no.

[20:14] Daniel Nolen: My mom loves it.

[20:15] Jeffery Self: It's a great show. I highly recommend it. It's a good binge if you're like a good like pre-bed kind of situation. I think it's the funniest she's ever been, actually.

[20:23] Daniel Nolen: But is it funnier than Veep?

[20:25] Jeffery Self: I mean, no, no, no. But I prefer Christine to Seinfeld. I'm not really a Seinfeld person. Um, but anyway, the there are two ladies in that, and they both they play these like moms that she doesn't like. Hold on, I'm gonna look it up. Um that don't like her. And one of them, I think is perfect for Miss Upson. Um, New Adventures of And she was also in an un uh unaired pilot that uh Eric Gilliland created. So I mean that to her. Eric, Eric will give us her email. Okay, her name is Trisha O'Kelly. Um I don't know what else she's really done, but I think she would be gal. She'd be great as as the mom.

[21:11] Daniel Nolen: And then I recognize that.

[21:13] Jeffery Self: I know this face.

[21:14] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, right?

[21:15] Jeffery Self: She'd be great.

[21:15] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[21:16] Jeffery Self: And especially with Chloe Feynman as the daughter.

[21:18] Daniel Nolen: Totally.

[21:19] Jeffery Self: And uh Chris Parnell as as the dad.

[21:24] Daniel Nolen: Oh, yeah, stuffy.

[21:25] Jeffery Self: Stuffy.

[21:26] Daniel Nolen: Oh, yeah, that's good.

[21:28] Jeffery Self: Yeah, that's that's my casting.

[21:31] Daniel Nolen: Oh, yeah, that's yeah, he's really good.

[21:32] Jeffery Self: He has the face for it.

[21:34] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[21:37] Jeffery Self: Okay, so now Jeffery goes again. Who should we do now? Should we do uh Patrick, right?

[21:40] Daniel Nolen: Patrick.

[21:44] Jeffery Self: And this is grown-up Patrick, right?

[21:46] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[21:46] Jeffery Self: Okay, yeah. I mean, I mean you can do young Patrick if you want to, but I'm not gonna sit here and name off little boys. That's just I think you that's a different podcast.

[21:55] Daniel Nolen: I think you can assume we film it like uh what's his name? Linklater style, and it's like over the course of 30 years and he actually ages.

[22:03] Jeffery Self: Yeah, great. I love that. Um what a what a great use of of resources. Um uh okay. I mean I want like I want like uh just like a strapping, handsome, straight up leading man. I mean, my first thought in my mind was Armie Hammer, but then I remembered that we don't like him anymore because he eats people. So not Armie Hammer. But um like uh like what about like a I guess he's too old too, but I was gonna say Ryan Gosling.

[22:45] Daniel Nolen: Um I mean, if we can cast Ethel Merman, we can certainly cast Ryan Gosling.

[22:49] Jeffery Self: That's true. So let's go with Ryan Gosling. I want like a tall, blonde, handsome, piercing eyes, charming, you know, check off all the boxes that Ryan Gosling checks off. Also, I just like thinking about Ryan Gosling.

[23:04] Daniel Nolen: Same.

[23:05] Jeffery Self: I love that. Um, yeah, Ryan Gosling, good one. Um, well, hmm. If I was cast so are we doing like movie casting or Broadway casting? Because I would it because I would cast different ones for different uh well, let's hear them both, I guess.

[23:25] Daniel Nolen: I mean, I think this is I think this production transcends uh media.

[23:29] Jeffery Self: Absolutely.

[23:30] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, yeah. This is this is the ultimate. This is like done like in St. Peter's Gate. Like it's a movie, it's a Hollywood Bowl concert, it's a NBC Live, like it's I love it.

[23:42] Jeffery Self: Okay, so I guess my uh Patrick, Ben, you're gonna love this, uh, would be our uh friend and object of desire, Pascal Pastrana.

[23:54] Daniel Nolen: Oh god, at least uh I don't even he doesn't even have like huge credits. I think he was doing Mean Girls on Broadway before the pandemic, and now he's doing a tour of something.

[24:10] Jeffery Self: But uh what's his name? Cascal Pastrana.

[24:15] Daniel Nolen: Okay, I'm working on that.

[24:17] Jeffery Self: Um I have some photos I can send you if you want. Just his his Instagram is P V Pastrana.

[24:23] Daniel Nolen: P V Pastrana, okay.

[24:25] Jeffery Self: That'll be easier than Google.

[24:26] Daniel Nolen: Pv Grande.

[24:27] Jeffery Self: Yeah, look at his Insta. There are some nice uh thirsty photos.

[24:32] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, is he queer?

[24:34] Jeffery Self: No, no, he's straight, but he's not gonna follow him then. But um, yeah, I mean, his body is amazing. I mean, talk about bringing the cakewalk back into style. Wow.

[24:46] Daniel Nolen: Oh, great.

[24:48] Jeffery Self: Yeah. I mean, he's just so luscious. And he's also like a very, a very uh talented actor, performer, singer. So yeah. He'd be good. He has the right energy. Anyway, all right, Benji.

[25:03] Ben Rimalower: Well, I do love y'all's choices. Um, but staying true to the basicness of my soul. Um, I went for this uh a little bit um, I didn't want to cast somebody who has like a cunty edge or anything, because I just want him to be likable even when he's acting like a dick.

[25:21] Jeffery Self: Yeah.

[25:22] Ben Rimalower: Um, so I want Jonathan Groff.

[25:25] Jeffery Self: Oh yeah.

[25:26] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Just my forever love.

[25:29] Jeffery Self: No, that's great.

[25:30] Ben Rimalower: I do love Jonathan Groff. Although when you say Pascal Pastrana, it's like Groff who. But yeah, I do love Jonathan Groff.

[25:39] Jeffery Self: No, yeah, you're right. And Groff's voice on that, like song, the like letter song. I mean, so sexy.

[25:47] Ben Rimalower: That really is is like the uh what do you call it? Like um, probably the most underrated song on the recording. Because it he Patrick really sounds amazing in that song.

[25:58] Jeffery Self: I agree. I mean, honestly, like uh I didn't necessarily feel this way in um Into the Woods, but when I think of like the voice type that would just like be able to just like sell that number so that you remember it for the rest of your days, I think of Gavin Creel.

[26:17] Daniel Nolen: Well, sure. Yeah, I mean, yeah.

[26:19] Jeffery Self: There's no such thing as like a song that Gavin Creel doesn't just nail. Like he is uh I believe that song would be Hello Little Girl and Agony.

[26:29] Daniel Nolen: Oh really? Oh, is he in that?

[26:29] Jeffery Self: Oh, right. Oh, he was in the in the City Center thing. Uh I mean, his voice is just so sexy though. I mean his voice is like the greatest uh Broadway tenor voice of all time.

[26:48] Jeffery Self: I have I I used that whatever song he sings on the hair actor's fun concert album, I forget what it is, but it is the only piece of music that has sexually aroused me in the past.

[27:03] Daniel Nolen: Whoa.

[27:04] Ben Rimalower: Wow, I love it.

[27:07] Jeffery Self: That's like your Elaine, that's like your version of Elaine Stritch having an orgasm.

[27:10] Daniel Nolen: Yes, in the first time.

[27:10] Jeffery Self: During that I mean, I you know, I I don't love him in every single role, although I do love his albums, but him in Hello Dolly, just like the wet that moment when he slams down the basement door and you know, out there, I mean, put on your Sunday clothes. I'm I mean I think he's so gorgeous, but but that to me is not even about him being sexy, it's just about like that's one of the few times I think you feel this way too, probably, Daniel.

[27:36] Daniel Nolen: Totally.

[27:44] Jeffery Self: Well, and honestly, when I listen to that cast recording, I never listen to the Bet songs. I only listen to the Gavin songs. Like, those are the only ones that I that I think are like you know, top drawer. Uh uh when you look at all of the the Dolly uh recordings we have out there, his is his Cornelius is just the greatest.

[28:05] Ben Rimalower: Oh, it's the best, yeah.

[28:07] Jeffery Self: Yeah. Um okay, wait, who's next?

[28:10] Daniel Nolen: That's the Patrick's.

[28:11] Jeffery Self: So I do the double now.

[28:14] Daniel Nolen: Right.

[28:15] Jeffery Self: Yeah.

[28:16] Daniel Nolen: So now we do Gooch or Beauregard.

[28:19] Jeffery Self: Or Boy.

[28:21] Daniel Nolen: Let's say let's save the women for ladies.

[28:22] Jeffery Self: Yeah, yeah.

[28:24] Daniel Nolen: Um okay so for Beauregard, I'm gonna go for Baroque and um the star vehicle. Why not? I want Matthew McConaughey.

[28:36] Jeffery Self: Oh that great idea.

[28:40] Daniel Nolen: Great choice.

[28:41] Jeffery Self: That's a great choice. Just his golden arms in that Georgia sign.

[28:46] Daniel Nolen: Totally.

[28:47] Jeffery Self: Oh god, I have no this is the one that I'm really flying by the seat of my pants. I didn't write anyone down. Um I was like, oh it'll come to me. Um but let's see you're using Matthew McConaughey. I definitely like that kind of energy.

[29:00] Daniel Nolen: Mm-hmm.

[29:00] Jeffery Self: It's similar to what I was thinking actually. Oh fuck. Uh Jeffery, why don't you go and then I'll let me let me do some Googling.

[29:09] Jeffery Self: Mine is actually similar to the Matthew McConaughey, but I went more music based, which is a weird move for this casting since he doesn't have a song. But maybe we can give him the song from the movie That Loving You is So Pretty.

[29:22] Daniel Nolen: Oh yeah that's good.

[29:24] Jeffery Self: And this in this in this with this new book we can we can we can make it written by someone whose name is not Harvey Firestean. I was thinking um Tim McGraw the country I think Tim McGraw is so good. I don't know if you've ever seen that movie Country Strong with Gwyneth Baldrow.

[29:43] Daniel Nolen: No but now I will.

[29:44] Jeffery Self: Oh it's a great, you should watch it it. It's really good. Um, she plays this like um big country music superstar. Um, and uh it's like a it's basically like a stars born kind of um uh not really stars born because that's about a star kind of on the rise. But she's playing this like Reba McIntyre level star, and he plays for husband and manager, and she's like uh an addict, and it's like um about her as a mess, and like very, very weird jacasque in the paltrow, but she's really good in it, and she sings, and the album itself is fantastic. But Tim McGraw plays her husband, and he's really, really, really fucking good at it. He's a good actor, and he's so sexy, and I think he'd be a great voarguard.

[30:27] Daniel Nolen: This is very intriguing.

[30:28] Jeffery Self: That's great. I love that. Watch Country Strong. It's really fun.

[30:33] Daniel Nolen: Um God, I have to Daniel. I have I can donate one of mine to you.

[30:37] Jeffery Self: Yeah, why don't why don't iPhone a friend? What's what's yours?

[30:40] Daniel Nolen: I well, my second choice, who's sort of in the middle between Matthew McConaughey and Tim McGraw, uh, is Harry Conick Jr.

[30:47] Jeffery Self: Oh wonderful.

[30:48] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, that's it's mine. That is that is someone I would have chose if I'd have thought of him.

[30:52] Jeffery Self: Perfect.

[30:53] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, that's good. I like that.

[30:55] Jeffery Self: I love that glass, man.

[30:56] Daniel Nolen: That's so chic.

[30:58] Jeffery Self: Thank you from eBay, a 32-ounce.

[31:00] Daniel Nolen: Yes, oh, I need a 30-glass.

[31:03] Jeffery Self: I know you love a giant cup.

[31:05] Daniel Nolen: Well, all the all the giant cups that I buy normally are plastic.

[31:09] Jeffery Self: And with that.

[31:10] Daniel Nolen: Is that glass?

[31:11] Jeffery Self: This is glass because you can't get glasses this big except these like souvenir things from the past.

[31:17] Daniel Nolen: I love that.

[31:18] Jeffery Self: I know that you can only drink things from the past.

[31:24] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[31:25] Jeffery Self: I like it. I need to invest in some bigger glasses.

[31:30] Daniel Nolen: Um okay, wait, we all do bogar. So actually, since I made you go ahead of me, you you're you go again, Jeffery.

[31:39] Jeffery Self: So you can see. So now it's a gooch.

[31:41] Daniel Nolen: Uh-huh.

[31:41] Jeffery Self: Oh, now things heat up. Gooch terror tray. Well, I I mean, there's so many, so many ways this could go. There are two in particular. I think the most obvious and what she would nail it. Um there's what like there's two ways this could go. Okay. So there's one of my choices is like obvious, gonna nail it. We know exactly what she's gonna do. It's similar, it's in line with what's been done before. She's gonna nail it. Rachel Dratch, we know she's gonna, she's gonna, she's gonna slam dunk.

[32:13] Daniel Nolen: Alternatively, if you wanted to do something a little more like, I don't quite know how this is gonna work, but I know it's gonna be really good, would be a Jennifer Coolidge Gooch.

[32:25] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, yeah.

[32:27] Jeffery Self: Because I mean it's against really what she normally does because it's like Gooch isn't sexy, but obviously she like has this like moment. But I think like you could do I would really like to see what Jennifer Coolidge does with it. And also, I mean her singing I lived is is would would be tremendous. Um so I'm gonna I'm gonna say it's for me, it's a tie between Coolidge and Rachel Dratch. It depends on how you want this production to go.

[32:54] Daniel Nolen: Rachel would be so wonderful. I just saw POTUS, and she was so hilarious.

[32:56] Jeffery Self: So hilarious.

[33:00] Daniel Nolen: And that was really fun. So such a physical, physically comic performance, and she would be wonderful as Gooch. I mean, I I would not be surprised if she's the one they choose for the eventual revival. It's funny to talk about Rachel and Coolidge in the same breath because you know that Rachel did the all the workshops of Legally blonde, the musical in the Jennifer Coolidge role.

[33:24] Jeffery Self: Wow.

[33:26] Daniel Nolen: Really?

[33:26] Jeffery Self: That's crazy.

[33:27] Daniel Nolen: And I believe the reason that they didn't cast her was because they wanted a better singer.

[33:33] Jeffery Self: So I always imagined that she must have sang pretty badly. But then she uh sings in POTUS and she sounds good.

[33:43] Jeffery Self: Um I would have certainly read it.

[33:45] Daniel Nolen: Did she sing? What does she sing?

[33:46] Jeffery Self: She sings along with what's her name in that big karaoke number.

[33:50] Daniel Nolen: Right, I forget.

[33:51] Jeffery Self: Yeah, they have that. She has solo lines. I mean, you know, um, it's pretty great. Actually, and she sang in one of our Countess Luann shows. I mean, you know, it's certainly like a character actor voice, but it's more than ply. I would have much rather seen her in Legally Blonde than Orfit. Um but uh but it's funny because I you wouldn't think of her and Jennifer Coolidge on the same ground, but I guess in some ways they could be.

[34:16] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, that's so interesting. I had no idea she had done played that part in a workshop.

[34:21] Jeffery Self: Yeah, weird.

[34:21] Daniel Nolen: Me neither.

[34:23] Jeffery Self: Um, okay. So for Gooch again, uh this doesn't really work out with the rest of mine timeline-wise, but this isn't an alternate universe where it will. So um for Gooch, I chose uh Diane Weist.

[34:37] Daniel Nolen: Oh yeah.

[34:39] Jeffery Self: Like maybe like Hannah and her sister's era, Diane Weist, um just like very scatterbrained, very fragile, very easily stressed out.

[34:51] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[34:52] Jeffery Self: Love that. And she would sing it well, I think, because you get a little glimpse of her singing voice in Hannah and her sisters, and she has a sweet voice.

[34:59] Daniel Nolen: It's beautiful, yeah, it's beautiful.

[35:02] Jeffery Self: So she could she could sing that little Gooch's song really well.

[35:06] Daniel Nolen: So good. I love that choice.

[35:08] Jeffery Self: Guess who sang that at the Jerry Herman Memorial?

[35:11] Daniel Nolen: Oh, so at the memorial.

[35:13] Jeffery Self: I think I know.

[35:13] Daniel Nolen: Because I think she also did it at the Ben.

[35:17] Jeffery Self: Lorna, right?

[35:18] Daniel Nolen: I knew I knew that would get Ben real.

[35:22] Jeffery Self: Is that is that is that performance the one is it the memorial or the Hollywood bowl that she's like wearing the pregnant belly?

[35:30] Daniel Nolen: That was the most memorial, but maybe at the Hollywood Bowl as well.

[35:30] Jeffery Self: At the Hollywood Bowl, she sang my song with the pregnant belly, and she sang it great.

[35:40] Daniel Nolen: Wait, she did?

[35:41] Jeffery Self: Oh, your song.

[35:42] Daniel Nolen: Oh.

[35:42] Jeffery Self: I thought you meant my song being oh, your song is the Elton John song. I thought you're talking about she sang the Dorothy Loudoun song.

[35:50] Daniel Nolen: Yes, exactly, sir.

[35:51] Jeffery Self: I love you performed that on Fire Island once, and you're referring to it as your song.

[35:56] Daniel Nolen: I performed it on Fire Island twice. My song.

[36:01] Jeffery Self: I love it.

[36:03] Daniel Nolen: Well, okay, so for mine for Gooch, I had written down some more um standard choices, one of whom I kind of think could tie together a lot of threads of this. But Daniel, the way you were describing what you were looking for actually made me think of someone else that I would really love to have seen do it.

[36:26] Jeffery Self: So I'm kind of torn. I'll say them both, actually. Um the person that I think you made me think of who would be sort of have it's she probably was considered for it at some point, was um uh uh the original um Amy and company and Vera, different Vera from Mel's Diner, Beth Howland.

[36:47] Daniel Nolen: Oh, yeah.

[36:48] Jeffery Self: Beth would be really good.

[36:49] Daniel Nolen: Such a Gooch type.

[36:50] Jeffery Self: Yeah Gooch. Yeah. I mean, of course, I had Rachel on my list, but a person that I think could really play the Gooch character, except I don't know if you guys are familiar with the um Jerry's Girls cast recording, which is not with Dorothy Loudon, but you know, it's got Andrea and against type I mean Andrea. She's Andrea sings Gucci's song and doesn't play the character at all, of course.

[37:15] Daniel Nolen: Right.

[37:15] Jeffery Self: But she sings it like she just belts the daylights out of it. And I feel like somebody that could maybe do the comedy and sing it in full belt, because it's pretty high that song. I mean, even if you lower it, it's it's just gotta go high because it's rangy. Um, I think would be Megan Hilti.

[37:32] Daniel Nolen: Oh, love that.

[37:34] Jeffery Self: Yeah, that's great.

[37:35] Daniel Nolen: I love for some reason I feel like she's played that or she's sang that somewhere.

[37:40] Jeffery Self: Oh, how didn't she play, didn't she play like in Noises Off, she played like the like some role that was equally, or is it am I conflating that with something else?

[37:50] Daniel Nolen: There's a character like that in Noises Off, but she played the sexy bug someone.

[37:55] Jeffery Self: Yeah. Didn't she win a Tony for that?

[38:00] Daniel Nolen: Maybe she was definitely nominated.

[38:03] Jeffery Self: Yeah. Um sometimes, uh, as our friend Dan Fortune would say, the nomination's the the award.

[38:09] Daniel Nolen: Oh yeah.

[38:13] Jeffery Self: Um okay, it's Vera time.

[38:17] Daniel Nolen: Oh gosh.

[38:18] Jeffery Self: Oh gosh. I mean, there's so many places this could go.

[38:22] Daniel Nolen: I mean, are you who goes first?

[38:25] Jeffery Self: Uh Ben, you right?

[38:27] Daniel Nolen: The snake.

[38:28] Jeffery Self: Oh, this is the part two of the double, right?

[38:30] Daniel Nolen: Okay.

[38:30] Jeffery Self: Um, yes, so many ways this could go. Um and uh, you know, I mean, much in the line of like the famous Judy Elaine fantasy of like doing the two roles in rap, you know, it you can't be a good meme if you kind of couldn't also be a good Vera, I think.

[38:53] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[38:53] Jeffery Self: And um, and you know, to some extent that means that a lot of Vera's are also potentially good memes. And um, so I tried to think of people that like I really think are so edgy that they're really just a Vera, not a meme.

[39:09] Daniel Nolen: I think that's the way to go.

[39:10] Jeffery Self: At least in my eyes, you know. And uh, and so I think the person that I don't know, I don't know that she could really play the like great star of the theatre like fanciness enough. Because I do think Vera should be a little pretentious in that B. Arthur way.

[39:27] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[39:30] Jeffery Self: But I just think that she could be such a ham and such a drunk and so scene stealing, and I just want her in everything. And uh, so I went with Bridget Everett for my first choice.

[39:44] Daniel Nolen: Love it.

[39:45] Jeffery Self: Love it.

[39:46] Daniel Nolen: Interesting.

[39:47] Jeffery Self: I like it.

[39:48] Daniel Nolen: I like it.

[39:49] Jeffery Self: Um it's an interesting, it's a different direction for Vera, but I like it.

[39:53] Daniel Nolen: I mean, also it's like, you know, I I still think of Bridget as like a downtown kid, you know.

[39:59] Jeffery Self: But if they just keep throwing like these like series leads at her, eventually she's just a veteran of stage and screen.

[40:07] Daniel Nolen: I think she already is, yeah.

[40:09] Jeffery Self: Yeah, yeah. I like, I like her, I like that idea.

[40:12] Jeffery Self: I like that she would do it, it would be a very different.

[40:16] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I like it.

[40:18] Jeffery Self: I have an idea for who would be a good Mame with that, but we'll get to that. I'm also picturing Bridget's Mame, you know, just like, but like instead of like the Upper East Side or whatever, it's just like um, you know, it's like the biggest city in like Kansas or whatever, and instead of like a champagne bottle, she just has like that like uh paper bag with the wine bottle inside.

[40:45] Daniel Nolen: That's funny.

[40:47] Jeffery Self: Um okay, so my Vera, oh god. I mean so my first choice was someone who's like who wouldn't do the movie. I guess I'll just do, I'll say both of them, but like if this was like a production I was directing somewhere, I would love for Vera, I would love uh Jackie Beat.

[41:09] Ben Rimalower: Oh yeah because she can sing and she also has just that energy and she's so funny.

[41:14] Jeffery Self: Yep. But um for the movie, for like a movie uh version with like top stars. Ooh. It's so hard. You know, I'm gonna say Susan Sarandon.

[41:29] Daniel Nolen: Oh, yes. I love that.

[41:31] Jeffery Self: I love a Sarandon Vera. That's a great idea. That's a really great idea. Um Deborah Messing as Mame. I would just think never ever.

[41:41] Ben Rimalower: Deborah Messing can stage manage.

[41:44] Jeffery Self: Um she'd be such a bad stage manager.

[41:47] Daniel Nolen: She would.

[41:48] Jeffery Self: She would. Um just like reporting everybody to equity all the time.

[41:53] Ben Rimalower: Oh, always.

[41:55] Jeffery Self: Yeah. Constantly on the phone with it. Like, she never even hangs up. She just makes them on an active line. Just like subtweeting everyone in the cast.

[42:06] Daniel Nolen: Oh, what a nightmare.

[42:09] Jeffery Self: No, thank you.

[42:10] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, no thanks.

[42:11] Jeffery Self: No thanks at all. Um, okay. Obviously, there's so many. I mean, there's so many ways this could go. There's so many ways. Um, I mean, I think I'm gonna I'm narrowing it down to two, I think, yeah, to two different ways.

[42:28] Jeffery Self: And they're drastically different. Um but they're both contemporary people. Um because my production's contemporary. Deal with it.

[42:39] Daniel Nolen: Okay.

[42:40] Jeffery Self: Um option. I think this is the less interesting of the two, um, but I think she'd be fucking great. Um, is Helena Bonham Carter.

[42:56] Ben Rimalower: Um yeah, a la The Crown.

[42:58] Jeffery Self: Yes, exactly. Exactly. Um, I and I think that would be great, and I think that's probably like the more like I could actually see that happening kind of thing. Like if they like did that movie when they were talking about doing the movie of Auntie Mame with Tilda, like she'd be a great Mame.

[43:13] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, totally.

[43:15] Jeffery Self: Fully works in that world. But the one that I think would be really interesting, um, and and I also knew who I think would be a good Mame with this, um, would be Dominique Jackson from Pose.

[43:28] Ben Rimalower: Do you know what I'm talking about?

[43:30] Jeffery Self: Yes.

[43:31] Ben Rimalower: She's got that pretentious stage edge.

[43:34] Jeffery Self: Exactly. Exactly. Oh, yes, she'd be great. Her big character's name. She I loved her in Pose. Um and I think she would be such a good Vera. And like especially how tall she has, like, so just like menacing and terrifying, like pictures, her like having to deal with a little boy, like so funny, so good.

[43:56] Daniel Nolen: Yeah. She's kind of like Grace Jonesy.

[43:58] Jeffery Self: It's very Grace Jones.

[44:00] Ben Rimalower: Very Grace Jones, who would I mean also be a great Mame.

[44:03] Jeffery Self: Great Mame, not Rob.

[44:04] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[44:05] Jeffery Self: Um, yeah. So I'm gonna I think my top choice is Dominique Jackson.

[44:10] Ben Rimalower: That's a great choice. Um that means uh Jeffery, you have the honor of casting Mame first.

[44:18] Jeffery Self: Okay. Well, again, I mean, as we know, there's so many ways this could go.

[44:20] Daniel Nolen: So many.

[44:24] Jeffery Self: Oh my god. We might need to do a couple of rounds.

[44:27] Ben Rimalower: We can do it, we can do several rounds for sure.

[44:29] Jeffery Self: Yeah. I think I mean, I think you could go Alice and Janney could be uh a good Mame.

[44:39] Daniel Nolen: Um singing.

[44:42] Jeffery Self: A little worried about the singing. The person that I was really picturing with Dominique Jackson, um, because I think they'd look really good together, and I believe them as like gal pals um that have been like friends forever, would be Vanessa Williams.

[45:00] Ben Rimalower: Oh and I think that Vanessa Williams would be a good Mame.

[45:05] Jeffery Self: Like I think we've seen her do the like kind of that kind of jabby, um like with the way like you were saying, like kind of with a jab that you don't even know she's jabbing you, kind of thing. Like that's kind of what she did in that Ugly Betty, like and but she's also got like I mean, her singing if you walked into my life, like I fully can picture that.

[45:28] Daniel Nolen: I fully know what that would be.

[45:30] Jeffery Self: And at the same time, I can I fully imagine like uh someone falling in love, like madly in love with her. I also imagine like her like having this history of like men sort of like throwing themselves at her.

[45:43] Ben Rimalower: I can picture her doing like that's how young I feel and like fully dancing with them.

[45:48] Jeffery Self: Um I so I think I think she would be um my and I mean she's also like I believe that like they could do a revival of Mame starring Vanessa Williams. Like I think that could be.

[45:59] Daniel Nolen: Totally, totally.

[46:00] Jeffery Self: I love Vanessa so much and everything you said, except my thing about Vanessa is like she has a great like smooth pop voice, but like I always find her really underwhelming in this like Broadway belt track.

[46:13] Ben Rimalower: Like I wish that she had been Phyllis in some production of Follies.

[46:18] Jeffery Self: I would love to see her as Desiree in Night Music. But I feel like when the show starts with it's today and she's crooning, I mean, even in fucking POTUS in the stupid curtain call, when they all come downstage and just sing like whatever like pop like anthem, they're just silly, like dancing in place. Like everybody else is like, and I need you now tonight, and Vanessa's like, and I need you love and uh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[46:49] Daniel Nolen: I guess that.

[46:51] Jeffery Self: Yeah, because you do want someone who's gonna like just like be really grab you by the balls to light it up.

[46:58] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[47:00] Jeffery Self: Um, I'll get that. I'll get that. Uh so for my oh god, I have so many, but I mean going with the rest of my choices, and actually with the rest of my choices, this well, maybe not totally, but it might kind of work out chronologically with all these people.

[47:21] Daniel Nolen: Um so I think if if I did it with uh Diane Wiest as Gooch and Susan Sarandon as Vera for Mame, I would like Cher.

[47:32] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[47:32] Jeffery Self: Well, then I was gonna say there was that little made for TV movie, right?

[47:37] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, longer than that, that was a real possibility.

[47:42] Jeffery Self: Um I mean Cher can act, we know that. She's an Academy Award winner, she can also sing, she's also just, you know, the life of the party. She's uh she's not a stranger to leading, you know, uh a group of people and giving them energy and and all that.

[47:58] Ben Rimalower: So she is. To the naked eye, she is somewhere between 40 and death.

[48:03] Daniel Nolen: Absolutely.

[48:04] Jeffery Self: Absolutely. And also, like, you know, uh the first Mame with just like you know, long blonde hair instead of instead of the short Ma or the short uh pixie or whatever. I mean, Cher could have a completely actually one of the things that I think is so great about Mame, and I don't know if the Broadway musical fully leaned into this in the original design, but like so much of like the novel and like I think the play is about how she almost Madonna style like reinvents herself because different eras, you know, the jazz baby to the art deco to the bohemian to the you know, and Cher more than anybody could just it could be a different complete look every single like sequence. Different, different gown, different Bob Mackey gown.

[48:55] Ben Rimalower: That but well, that was what I was gonna say is though what I read on that potential Cher thing that was gonna happen. I want to say in the 90s was that Bob it was it was going to be Bob Mackey doing uh all the the looks as well.

[49:06] Jeffery Self: Yeah, that's that's exact I didn't think about that. It is in the book where she's very is like this was in Auntie Mame's blank stage, like when she was doing this.

[49:15] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[49:16] Jeffery Self: Oh, that's so fun.

[49:17] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I love that.

[49:18] Jeffery Self: Yeah, I guess they kind of like the uh in the in the Roz movie, like, you know, there's the different interior design.

[49:28] Daniel Nolen: Totally every every uh scene or whatever.

[49:31] Jeffery Self: Um all right, Bingie. Okay, so my first choice for Mame is somebody I have never thought about for the role until today. But it is someone that I have been saying for 20 years is the greatest musical theater talent of their generation. And it is somebody who I think, despite having a Tony Award and a very uh large uh Hollywood success, has not actually found the role that displays everything they can do in the most satisfying way. And they've gotten a little bit of like a bad break in terms of being a joke on the internet due to a recent television run that they did. Um but I maintain that there's nothing basic about them, and they are Sara Ramirez.

[50:23] Daniel Nolen: And I think that Sara is fierce, fabulous, can be completely glamorous, but is also extremely bohemian. And uh Sara, I think has the intellectual heft to do those innuendos, but really has the warmth um that I just think like you know, part of the reason I wouldn't want Bridget to be Mame, for example. I mean, Bridget is so warm, but I can't, when I watch Bridget, I'm always gonna be about Bridget. I can't imagine it being about Bridget loving, you know, Bridget can love her dog, but we still just want to be about Bridget.

[50:59] Jeffery Self: And I think that um Sara, I think there's actually like the quality could be that, you know, against the odds, Sara is the caretaker for this little boy. And um, and would just I don't think Sara gets the credit that Sara deserves for that Patti LuPone level volcanic belt richness that would, you know, just the score has never been sung the way Sara would sing it.

[51:24] Ben Rimalower: I love that.

[51:25] Jeffery Self: That's a good choice. And I mean, I would also, I mean, this would really like to really fuck with the internet. Um, I mean, with Kim Cattrall as Vera.

[51:36] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, yes, Kim was actually Kim was actually on my Vera short list.

[51:43] Jeffery Self: She would be a great Mame.

[51:45] Ben Rimalower: I mean uh I also feel like um we could call it Vame.

[51:53] Jeffery Self: No. No, I mean, not to like, not to like, I mean sorry, I don't want to I don't want to derail the derail, derail.

[52:01] Daniel Nolen: Well, I was gonna say, like, not to like pander to you, but like, do you pander to me?

[52:06] Jeffery Self: What are your thoughts on a Patti LuPone Mame?

[52:09] Ben Rimalower: Well, obviously, I am first in line to be there for it. Um, but like, you know, it's funny. I've for so long I wanted that, like when Patti was in her 60s, and people would say that she was wrong for it for various reasons, which I would then have to fight about, or they would say, um, you know, she's too old, you know, kind of along that line of reasoning of like, you know, Mama Rose has to be able to be a mother, you know, a biological mother to these little girls, you know, and all this shit. And I would just fight it, fight it. And then the last couple of years, I've really found my confidence to stand up to people and be like, no, don't give me that like xenophobic ageist bullshit, you know. And I want my women in musicals, the older the better. Just give me a fucking corpse and I will put her in the show.

[53:00] Jeffery Self: Yeah.

[53:00] Ben Rimalower: But but somehow I think like me being strong and saying that out loud, in a little way, it's sort of like it let it all flow out of me. It is like an exorcism.

[53:10] Jeffery Self: Yeah, it really did.

[53:11] Ben Rimalower: And now I'm kind of like, maybe she should be in her 40s, you know.

[53:16] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[53:18] Ben Rimalower: And like, I don't know, you know, Patti also like I've seen Patti in everything she's done for the last 25 years or whatever. And like you've made that you've made that abundantly clear.

[53:35] Ben Rimalower: But I feel like Patty is best when she surprises you in the role, you know?

[53:41] Jeffery Self: Yeah.

[53:41] Ben Rimalower: And when it's a little bit like every gay in New York is like front row, just being like, I want to see how she does it, you know.

[53:49] Jeffery Self: It's like she kind of sometimes is disappointing in those tracks.

[53:53] Ben Rimalower: I think that's true.

[53:54] Jeffery Self: I think that's it's like maybe a disservice.

[53:56] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[53:56] Jeffery Self: I mean, I think at some point she would have there would have at like Patty at the exact right age would have been obviously spectacular. But you're right, it's not necessarily surprising.

[54:07] Ben Rimalower: And because Patty is kind of, you know, like punk, because she is, like you want it, you want to see her do something surprising.

[54:16] Jeffery Self: Yeah.

[54:17] Ben Rimalower: Also, I will say, sorry, just back to Patty on it for a second. Her performance in Pal Joey at Encores.

[54:24] Jeffery Self: Yeah.

[54:25] Ben Rimalower: Um, it I will say that she really proved you don't necessarily think of Patty as like coming from like a like verbal, like intellectual place. She's not a Christine Baranski or or even an Angela Lansbury.

[54:40] Jeffery Self: Right.

[54:40] Ben Rimalower: But she definitely like scored very big in Pal Joey with all that like upper class, like sophisticated comedy that like he would be like, Yeah, yeah, I we saw you. We saw each other in Chicago. We were seeing a play. It was uh I think it was the man who was coming to dinner, and all her lines were like, Oh, you do, do you?

[55:00] Jeffery Self: Yeah, it was like everyone she was like flawless. So that does thinking about that kind of makes me want her, but I stand behind what I said.

[55:09] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[55:10] Jeffery Self: I get that.

[55:12] Ben Rimalower: What about uh what about a Bernadette name with Patrick?

[55:16] Jeffery Self: Oh I actually think Bernadette would be a more interesting Vera than May.

[55:22] Ben Rimalower: Totally agreed.

[55:23] Jeffery Self: Like she was on Pal J on Ugly Betty.

[55:26] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I mean, I I love like a Bernadette like icy bitchy, yes, yeah.

[55:31] Jeffery Self: Bernadette's so good, very cold girl.

[55:33] Ben Rimalower: She always been cold.

[55:35] Jeffery Self: I mean, I don't like I just never feel that Bernadette has like a maternal quality.

[55:41] Ben Rimalower: No, I just don't see that in her.

[55:43] Jeffery Self: It was what was missing for me for her in Gypsy, and honestly, like I she was so incredible, obviously in into the woods, and we all think of her as definitive. But watching Heather Headley at Encores, who like she didn't quite get the comedy the way that Bernadette did. Um, although the vocals, I have to say, were like the greatest you could ever dream of anyone singing it. But also like the maternal quality.

[56:07] Ben Rimalower: I mean, like when she said I was just trying to be a good mother, it wasn't like a laugh line. It was like, oh my god, this is what we all feel from our parental failures. You know, it was so much pathos.

[56:21] Jeffery Self: And and I I don't think that Bernadette like gives that that quality, you know. Although in MAME, maybe maybe we could get it out of her if we replace Patrick with like a terrier, you know.

[56:34] Ben Rimalower: I feel like she really loves animals the most.

[56:39] Jeffery Self: I love that. That's uh what about a MAME where um Patty is MAME, Bernadette is is Vera, and then the rest of the cast are are rescued dogs.

[56:49] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, like a very like uh Muppet movie format where it's just like there's two humans and then the rest are just animals.

[56:57] Jeffery Self: Brilliant Yeah, I mean the minute you say Muppet movie, I'm like, would Miss Piggy be a decent name? And I don't think she'd be the Sarah for the ages.

[57:06] Ben Rimalower: No, I also I do I think Miss Piggy as Dolly Levi is like the thing that like why have they not done a hello dolly with the Muppets?

[57:14] Jeffery Self: Like Jeffery, that is your fucking gig. Go make that happen.

[57:19] Ben Rimalower: Right? It would be so good. I think it would be like I guess this isn't about hello dolly though. But I do think Miss Piggy would be a good Dolly Levi.

[57:29] Jeffery Self: But it would actually be the Muppets would be perfect for MAME because you could have like the one star at like the human star's name, and then you could have Piggy as Mesphirra, you could have Kermit, Kermit as a and then you could have uh uh like uh, you know, Beaker or someone as Patrick, and then you could have um Fozzie.

[57:50] Ben Rimalower: Patrick should be little junior Kermit. What's his name?

[57:52] Jeffery Self: Robin.

[57:54] Ben Rimalower: Oh, yeah.

[57:54] Jeffery Self: And Fozzie the Bear in Drag is Gooch.

[57:57] Ben Rimalower: I guess. And then um uh yeah, and then Janice can be someone.

[58:05] Jeffery Self: Yeah, I was just trying to think about who Janice could be.

[58:08] Ben Rimalower: I mean she's the wrong type for Gloria.

[58:10] Jeffery Self: Absolutely.

[58:10] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, she is, unfortunately. Um, but yeah, no, I think I think I uh I think you're right uh that Bernadette nodded MAME. Patty could have been a Mame, but it's a little like on the nose.

[58:23] Jeffery Self: Um I mean Patty would be a great Vera if you they were to do it for real. Like if Merrill did name Patty's like a dream Vera.

[58:32] Ben Rimalower: Totally, totally. And I think would Meryl be a good meme?

[58:35] Jeffery Self: Uh Meryl's a good everything.

[58:37] Ben Rimalower: I think Meryl would be. Um yeah.

[58:41] Jeffery Self: Yeah, you're right.

[58:42] Ben Rimalower: You're right. Um, some other ones I had, of course, Merilyn May. Um I mean, I I would have loved to have seen Barbara do it. Um just to have her in something else.

[58:57] Jeffery Self: Um another another kind of another kind of like stunty thing I thought of for Mame Vera and Gooch would be um uh Goldie, Bet, and Diane.

[59:09] Ben Rimalower: Well, I that's oh okay. So wait, who is in my fantasy it was like Goldie as Mame, just and then Bet as Bet as Vera, but if Bet is like pissed about that, they could do it like back to back.

[59:23] Jeffery Self: Diane would be such a good Gooch.

[59:25] Ben Rimalower: Diane should be such a good Gooch, right?

[59:27] Jeffery Self: She's like she's like, I love my part. You guys fight it out. I'm happy.

[59:30] Ben Rimalower: Totally. Totally. She's like, I'm the I'm the nice one here. Wasn't there talk of Goldie doing a MEME at one point as well? Like a MAME movie or something with Goldie?

[59:43] Jeffery Self: Maybe. I mean, it's it's such a loss in a way that, you know, after that like non-Chicago movie, that that Goldie just never did anything, and she really should have.

[59:57] Ben Rimalower: She was also in talks.

[59:59] Jeffery Self: She was in talks to do um sorry, go ahead. The workshop of the movie when they did that reading in the early 90s of Into the Woods as a movie which Cher was the witch.

[1:00:11] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, Goldie was the Baker's wife.

[1:00:13] Jeffery Self: Right. Right.

[1:00:14] Ben Rimalower: But I mean, like, you know, Into the Woods is Sondheim. Like, it why didn't she ever do anything? A Hollywood Bowl concert, a studio album, like a TV movie. I mean, I guess it's not too late for some role in something, but also Goldie's one of the ones whose face is like no longer castable in human roles.

[1:00:32] Jeffery Self: Yeah, right.

[1:00:33] Ben Rimalower: True. Isn't there an album? Doesn't she have an album?

[1:00:34] Jeffery Self: From like the 60s, and it's like it like makes you like really appreciate how good Liza Manelli's pop career was.

[1:00:44] Ben Rimalower: Well, that was another one I thought of was Liza. I mean, um Yeah, I mean, Liza would be great. I mean, we talk about uh you said you you said you want a corpse to do it. I mean, what about Liza just being wheeled out, just a meme in a woman?

[1:00:58] Jeffery Self: Why not?

[1:00:59] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Liza and Gaga sharing the role.

[1:01:02] Jeffery Self: Yeah.

[1:01:03] Ben Rimalower: I'm fine with that.

[1:01:04] Jeffery Self: I'm gonna go.

[1:01:04] Ben Rimalower: Make it like um a memory piece.

[1:01:08] Jeffery Self: Yeah, yeah.

[1:01:08] Ben Rimalower: It's like three tall women.

[1:01:12] Jeffery Self: Throw uh throw um what's her Glenda Jackson in there as well.

[1:01:17] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, always.

[1:01:18] Jeffery Self: Oh my god. Just like just like the opposite of a meme type. Just like so withholding and cold.

[1:01:25] Ben Rimalower: Um, I mean, yeah, Liza would yeah, Liza would have been a great, a great meme. Again, I think Liza would be a better Dolly than Mae.

[1:01:35] Jeffery Self: Totally, yeah.

[1:01:36] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I do.

[1:01:37] Jeffery Self: Yeah, you're a true.

[1:01:39] Ben Rimalower: I mean, the thing that Liza, it maybe in some universe, Liza could have done Mame, but much like Barbara, she's so far into the persona that it's hard to cast that as Maim. But unlike Barbara now, I I could really see Liza like a scheming dolly trying to pull it all together.

[1:02:01] Jeffery Self: I mean Absolutely.

[1:02:02] Ben Rimalower: It really could still happen acting wise. Liza's always scheming to uh rewrite her own history, so screw it.

[1:02:05] Jeffery Self: Screw it.

[1:02:14] Ben Rimalower: Oh my god, we did it, guys.

[1:02:16] Jeffery Self: We done did it.

[1:02:18] Ben Rimalower: Um I I could do this all day long, you guys.

[1:02:21] Jeffery Self: I know.

[1:02:22] Ben Rimalower: We'll have to bring you back for another another cast off.

[1:02:25] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, what are what are your other um favorite shows to dreamcast, Jeffery?

[1:02:29] Jeffery Self: Well, I mean, obviously, I keep trying to steer it to Hello Dolly, so I guess that.

[1:02:33] Jeffery Self: Um the lady shows.

[1:02:35] Jeffery Self: All the lady shows.

[1:02:36] Jeffery Self: I could I could get into an Annie Get Your Gun.

[1:02:39] Jeffery Self: I really love Annie Get Your Gun.

[1:02:41] Jeffery Self: Um I've got the the DVD of the Mary Martin production right over here.

[1:02:45] Ben Rimalower: Uh as one does.

[1:02:47] Jeffery Self: And I I I controversially think that Mary Martin is a better Annie Oakley than Ethel Merman.

[1:02:54] Ben Rimalower: Hmm.

[1:02:55] Jeffery Self: I listened to the Mary Martin Annie Get Your Gun and the Mary Martin Hello Dolly, probably more than most albums. Isn't that weird? But that's kind of Mary Martin has like a wonderful, pleasing voice.

[1:03:07] Ben Rimalower: That's true.

[1:03:08] Jeffery Self: We can't get the idea in our out of our head of like bald 75-year old Ethel Merman being like folks are dumb what you know.

[1:03:16] Ben Rimalower: But imagine like young Ethel when like she still had like a waistline in the little like suede outfit, just like filling the theater with like her like just balls.

[1:03:27] Jeffery Self: Not bald Ethel Merman.

[1:03:30] Ben Rimalower: Bald Ethel Merman is such a good image.

[1:03:34] Jeffery Self: I love it. I'm I'm gonna go to sleep with that one in mind.

[1:03:37] Ben Rimalower: Oh wait, but I I will say though, speak pleasing vocally, I love her moon moonshine lullaby. Because she like actually mixes for the first time in her life.

[1:03:47] Jeffery Self: Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful.

[1:03:49] Ben Rimalower: Um yeah, so those shows, um, yeah, I I could do it with with basically any of them though.

[1:03:55] Jeffery Self: Love it.

[1:03:56] Ben Rimalower: We should definitely we'll definitely do a part two.

[1:03:59] Jeffery Self: Um, did you guys hear that um that Justin Timberlake might be replacing Hugh Jackman?

[1:04:04] Daniel Nolen: Yes.

[1:04:05] Jeffery Self: No, that's crazy.

[1:04:07] Ben Rimalower: And I think that's so fun.

[1:04:08] Jeffery Self: I think that's so fun.

[1:04:10] Ben Rimalower: I mean, it's crazy to think of how how um I mean, I love that, but I it's interesting to think how um far Justin Timberlake's star has fallen. That that he's now going to replace in a he's replacing Hugh Jackman.

[1:04:25] Jeffery Self: Because he used to be like the number one like celebrity, you know. But that kind of it's like when Reba replaced Bernadette. Like, I feel like there's a certain level of star. Like, if like, you know, if if a Broadway actor replaces a Broadway actor, it's not as good as if they originated it. But when like somebody who's like from a completely different medium, like Justin, like, could just as easily like lead to like you know a TV version based on his triumph.

[1:04:51] Ben Rimalower: I mean, right, although I think he's so wrong for it in the same way that Hugh is.

[1:04:56] Jeffery Self: Yeah, like I I really like I said, I want Ryan Reynolds. Like, like I want someone that's gonna be like using their charm to steal the money, not someone who just desperately wants to tap down.

[1:05:07] Ben Rimalower: No, yeah, Harold Hill, you need you need those like those layers, you know, of like he he he's smarter than them.

[1:05:14] Jeffery Self: Um but uh weren't we just talking about Justin Timberlake in another role? Didn't you dreamcast him in something on one of our episodes?

[1:05:23] Daniel Nolen: What what did we watch we were doing Little Shop and I thought he'd be a good dentist?

[1:05:27] Jeffery Self: Yeah.

[1:05:28] Ben Rimalower: I see that.

[1:05:30] Jeffery Self: Yeah, I think he'd be great.

[1:05:30] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:05:30] Jeffery Self: And uh Jeffery, I know that uh people can still follow you on Instagram. Are you on any other social medias for the fans?

[1:05:38] Jeffery Self: I think that's the only one. I think that's the only one.

[1:05:41] Jeffery Self: And grindr when I'm in your city.

[1:05:43] Ben Rimalower: And grinder and you're coming soon to a city near you.

[1:05:46] Daniel Nolen: Uh well, it's a shame because the whole reason I got onto Twitter was to stalk you in all your hilarity. So I'm gonna be able to do it.

[1:05:51] Jeffery Self: Are you still on Twitter?

[1:05:55] Jeffery Self: I mean, who knows where I'll be when this podcast comes out, but as of today I am.

[1:06:01] Ben Rimalower: Oh, what a frightening place.

[1:06:02] Jeffery Self: But um, yes.

[1:06:02] Ben Rimalower: Um well, thank you for having me, guys.

[1:06:05] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, thanks for joining us.

[1:06:07] Ben Rimalower: Um all right. Well, I'll see Ben. I think I'm gonna see you in Fire Island soon.

[1:06:11] Daniel Nolen: Are you gonna be there too, Daniel?

[1:06:14] Daniel Nolen: Uh when?

[1:06:16] Ben Rimalower: Memorial Day week.

[1:06:17] Daniel Nolen: Oh no.

[1:06:18] Ben Rimalower: No.

[1:06:19] Daniel Nolen: But you guys have fun.

[1:06:21] Ben Rimalower: We'll work on you.

[1:06:23] Daniel Nolen: I I do love it there. I'll be out there at some point.

[1:06:25] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:06:26] Daniel Nolen: Cool.

[1:06:26] Ben Rimalower: Um, all right, see you guys.

[1:06:28] Jeffery Self: Bye.

[1:06:29] Ben Rimalower: Jeffrey.

[1:06:33] Ben Rimalower: Thank you for tuning in to Cast Offs the Podcast. If you're in New York City, come visit us every Monday at 8 p.m. at Club Coming. A big appreciation to our good Judy's composer Billy Reese for the Cast Offs theme song and to the wonderful photographer Austin Ruffer for our Cast Offs photo. Check them both out online. See you next time.