This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:04] Aaron Michael Ray: All right, we are back with Conversations from Away.

[0:08] Aaron Michael Ray: I'm your host, Aaron Michael Ray.

[0:11] Aaron Michael Ray: And for those of you who don't know, the first they just announced that the first Broadway show opens back up on September 14th of this year in 2021.

[0:23] Aaron Michael Ray: Which means, as of today, uh, well, today, the day of recording this podcast, we have exactly four months to get rid of white supremacy in the theater.

[0:34] Aaron Michael Ray: We have over 17 and a half weeks to include all BIPOC, trans, non-binary, and differently abled folks into every step of the Broadway reconstruction, and 123 days to make sure that we aren't the token in the workplace anymore, which is what we are going to be talking about today.

[0:56] Aaron Michael Ray: But before we really get into this conversation, we have two pretty amazing guests with us.

[1:10] Aaron Michael Ray: She plays Bonnie on the North American Tour of Come From Away.

[1:14] Aaron Michael Ray: And her Broadway credits include Mama Mia and The Band's Visit.

[1:17] Aaron Michael Ray: Sharone, thanks for coming.

[1:20] Sharone Sayegh: Ah, thanks for having me.

[1:21] Sharone Sayegh: I'm so happy to be here, Aaron.

[1:23] Aaron Michael Ray: I'm so happy that you're here too.

[1:25] Aaron Michael Ray: And for those of y'all who don't know, Sharone is very pregnant, and she is gonna be a mom any day now.

[1:32] Aaron Michael Ray: So I'm super excited for you.

[1:34] Sharone Sayegh: I know you're excited to get this baby out.

[1:37] Sharone Sayegh: Yeah.

[1:37] Sharone Sayegh: And I'm just very happy for you.

[1:40] Aaron Michael Ray: Thank you.

[1:41] Aaron Michael Ray: And our second guest today is Anthony Wayne.

[1:46] Aaron Michael Ray: Anthony's Broadway credits include Tootsie, Pippin, Anything Goes, Priscilla, Queen of the Desert, and Once on This Island.

[1:54] Aaron Michael Ray: Anthony, thank you so much for joining us.

[1:56] Anthony Wayne: It's a pleasure to be here.

[1:58] Anthony Wayne: How's everyone doing tonight?

[1:59] Anthony Wayne: Yes, or today, uh, whenever you listen to this podcast.

[2:03] Aaron Michael Ray: Okay.

[2:04] Aaron Michael Ray: Well, I'm better now that both of y'all are here.

[2:07] Aaron Michael Ray: So we are gonna get right into it.

[2:11] Aaron Michael Ray: So we wanted to have an episode talking about tokenism.

[2:16] Aaron Michael Ray: Now, tokenism, I mean, you see this just about everywhere.

[2:22] Aaron Michael Ray: This is not exclusive to just Broadway folks.

[2:25] Aaron Michael Ray: You know, you see this in just about every industry you can think of.

[2:28] Aaron Michael Ray: And uh, if we really want to get into the proper definition, uh tokenism is the practice of making only a perfunctory or symbolic effort to do a particular thing, i.e. being the only underrepresented group in a workplace, school, what have you?

[2:48] Aaron Michael Ray: And I can tell you right now that the three of us have absolutely been a token in some sort of way at some point in our lives or careers.

[3:00] Aaron Michael Ray: And so I think what I wanted to discuss today is really just recognizing that, figuring out how to change that, and you know, just trying to see how we can flip it on its head and find the silver linings in it as well.

[3:14] Aaron Michael Ray: So, the first thing I want to ask y'all, um, I'll start with you, Sharone.

[3:19] Aaron Michael Ray: What does tokenism mean to you?

[3:22] Aaron Michael Ray: And does tokenism happen in all levels of this industry?

[3:27] Sharone Sayegh: Hmm.

[3:28] Sharone Sayegh: Well, that's a great question.

[3:29] Sharone Sayegh: Um, I think for my personal experience, tokenism has been very um it's been very apparent.

[3:37] Sharone Sayegh: I think being Middle Eastern, people are very quickly able to say, Oh, you're not white when they look at me, but they're also like, you're not white, you're not black, but I don't know what you are.

[3:47] Sharone Sayegh: I can't tell, you're like something in the middle.

[3:50] Sharone Sayegh: So, like, I definitely feel like many times I've been cast as like, you know, there's like three girls in a reading, and there's like the white girl, the black girl, and I'm the like token.

[4:00] Sharone Sayegh: I represent everything else that you don't have in this cast yet, but you can't put your finger on it, kind of thing, you know what I mean?

[4:07] Sharone Sayegh: Um, so that's been like my tokenism experience.

[4:11] Sharone Sayegh: Um, and it's happened multiple times.

[4:15] Sharone Sayegh: Um, and it's it's strange because it has felt sometimes like even like uh, for example, when you understudy, you know, in a show, um, I'll be that token every other ethnicity person, and then they'll only have me understudy the role that is cast by uh a black actor or Latinx actor or an Asian actor, like something other than white.

[4:41] Sharone Sayegh: So it's like I feel like I have represented the token all other races rather than black and white, you know what I mean?

[4:49] Sharone Sayegh: Which is not fair to have me represent, you know, Latinx, the Latinx community or the Asian American community, you know what I mean?

[4:56] Sharone Sayegh: Because I'm I'm none of those, I'm Middle Eastern.

[4:59] Sharone Sayegh: So it's been tricky because I think people can't really place me.

[5:03] Sharone Sayegh: Um with regard to um, is there tokenism in every part of this industry?

[5:11] Sharone Sayegh: I definitely think there's tokenism within casting for sure.

[5:15] Sharone Sayegh: Um I'm not sure that there's tokenism within creative teams.

[5:20] Sharone Sayegh: I think those have primarily been Caucasian because they're not as seen by the public, or you know, they're not as much in the forefront as casting is.

[5:32] Sharone Sayegh: Um and same thing with casting directors, same thing with agents, you know, like and same thing with I think even um folks who work in crew, you know, in the behind the stage and stage managers.

[5:44] Sharone Sayegh: I don't, I'm not sure if there is tokenism, but I wouldn't necessarily know how to speak to that because I'm not one of those um folks, but I definitely think there's tokenism within casting for sure.

[5:55] Aaron Michael Ray: Okay, yeah, I I I definitely agree with that.

[5:57] Aaron Michael Ray: What about you, Anthony?

[5:58] Anthony Wayne: Well, to tell you the truth, um, and I'll I'll speak from something I've been thinking even as you guys reached out about doing this.

[6:08] Anthony Wayne: Um, one of the things that's always bothered me is the word token.

[6:13] Anthony Wayne: That word itself is offensive to me.

[6:15] Anthony Wayne: Because to me, that kind of labels it as if you are the one that's um that's different, that's other.

[6:25] Anthony Wayne: That's um that's the that can be the problem.

[6:28] Anthony Wayne: Or, you know, it comes with a lot of stuff.

[6:30] Anthony Wayne: Um when I first got into this business and first uh was a child in Virginia, even in Norfolk performing, I remember just loving being on stage.

[6:40] Anthony Wayne: I didn't care who was on stage with me.

[6:42] Anthony Wayne: I just love being on stage.

[6:43] Anthony Wayne: I like singing, I love acting, I love performing.

[6:45] Anthony Wayne: I just love being the big old ham that I was as a child.

[6:49] Anthony Wayne: Uh but um, but unfortunately, like it wasn't until I was I mean, because I started in the children's theater group called Center Stage with Margie Day Walker when I was a five, and it was predominantly African American group.

[7:00] Anthony Wayne: It was a group that was like all just uh black kids.

[7:04] Anthony Wayne: Uh and then there was another theater group that's in Virginia that's fabulous, it's also called um Hurrah Players that I was in.

[7:11] Anthony Wayne: Um, and I joined them, but they were predominantly Caucasian.

[7:15] Anthony Wayne: And I didn't really think anything of it.

[7:17] Anthony Wayne: I just wanted to be on stage, you know.

[7:20] Anthony Wayne: And it's unfortunate how you don't really understand that you're the only one until you wake up and realize in some way, shape, or form, and some time or another, that you are the only one.

[7:32] Anthony Wayne: And um, I've had many experiences in my career thus far where I have been the only one.

[7:39] Anthony Wayne: And so um, it's funny.

[7:40] Anthony Wayne: My my broad my my Broadway debut was Anything Goes.

[7:44] Anthony Wayne: And I remember being um, you know, on that stage, tapping and and doing what I love to do.

[7:49] Anthony Wayne: But I was it was my Broadway debut.

[7:52] Anthony Wayne: I was like, we rehearsed at Studio 54, we opened at the Stephen Sondheim, you know, it was amazing.

[7:57] Anthony Wayne: I was working with some amazing people, and um I remember my mother's past at this time at this point like now she passed in 2013.

[8:06] Anthony Wayne: But I remember her being there in 2011, sitting in the audience, waving her hand, saying, That's my baby, you know, but not really telling me, you know, that you have to watch yourself, you need to be careful, but you know, take care of yourself, you know.

[8:23] Anthony Wayne: There's a lot that comes with all of this.

[8:25] Anthony Wayne: Her thing was just seeing me have joy on stage, and that's why I found myself holding on to.

[8:29] Anthony Wayne: But it wasn't until I found myself going out of those stage doors and seeing those young people, seeing, you know, like all a sea full of Caucasian people and other mixed race people as well, and they're seeing that one black guy and that one black girl, and me just sitting there talking to them for like probably a whole 20 minutes after the show's over, after, you know, but I could have gone home, but I'm standing there talking to them because I'm inspired to know that they were inspired by just seeing me, you know.

[8:55] Anthony Wayne: And um, and I even get calls now, people who say, Oh, I saw you on Tony's or what have you.

[8:59] Anthony Wayne: It means a lot to me.

[9:01] Anthony Wayne: However, now I'm at a place where it's like, okay, now that I recognize this, and I think that's the difference.

[9:07] Anthony Wayne: What can you do with the platform you have to make a difference?

[9:09] Anthony Wayne: And so there have been different things that I've been trying to figure out and trying to be a part of to to now inspire and encourage and motivate other young black people specifically to find joy and greatness within themselves.

[9:22] Anthony Wayne: And I do think to your other point, I do think there is tokenism in quote unquote tokenism in the industry.

[9:28] Anthony Wayne: Uh, but sometimes it's yeah, I see the bigger picture because you try to figure out is it is it because they're intentionally just want you to be the only one, or is it that they don't put themselves in a position or in a space where they where they're open to to know that there are many others who do exactly the same thing.

[9:48] Anthony Wayne: You know, right?

[9:48] Anthony Wayne: It's like if you don't surround yourself and open up your mind to other people who do other things in the world, and you keep staying in your world, that's all you're going to know, and that's all you're going to focus on.

[9:58] Anthony Wayne: So I think it's more about just trying to get people in this industry to open their minds, open your hearts, and know that there are many other people who do the things that you need them to do, and probably do it even fabulous, even more fabulously than the people that you know.

[10:13] Aaron Michael Ray: Yeah, I really I really am receiving everything that you're saying because I think you know, so many people think like, well, you know, like it I feel like it's when you see those shows, you know, or you're in that position of being the only, or that person where you are the only one that looks like you.

[10:33] Aaron Michael Ray: There's also this added pressure that no one really talks about because all of a sudden, you know, in your workplace or in your school, whatever that is, you know, you have there's this pressure to be the representation of your entire race or your entire gender or what you know, whatever that is.

[10:53] Aaron Michael Ray: And that's it, it puts a lot of pressure on that person who's in that position.

[11:00] Aaron Michael Ray: Um, and I love that you talked about you know, just creating wanting to kind of create the space for um for you know young black kids in the future, and we're definitely gonna get into that uh a little later.

[11:16] Aaron Michael Ray: But it's just unfortunate when people are put in that position because then you know they have to be that representation, and it's just not fair.

[11:24] Anthony Wayne: And truth be told, truth be told, not excuse me, truth be told, we're always that way, you know.

[11:31] Anthony Wayne: You know, I'm sure Sharone understands as well, as well as you do, Aaron.

[11:36] Anthony Wayne: Since you're a child, you have to go above and beyond.

[11:39] Anthony Wayne: It's like we have to be excellent to be seen as average.

[11:43] Anthony Wayne: It just is literally in the in the tapestry of our of our country, unfortunately.

[11:48] Anthony Wayne: You know, it's it's it's from the history of what was and what is.

[11:53] Anthony Wayne: And so it takes a lot of it takes a lot of work for us to strive, like for example, if I'm late, people are gonna be like, oh, of course.

[12:00] Anthony Wayne: You know, or if I if I don't have my stuff together, I'm forgetting something or I'm doing something or whatever, it's like, oh, of course.

[12:07] Anthony Wayne: So I'm dealing with that.

[12:08] Anthony Wayne: And I tell I was telling um uh one thing happened.

[12:11] Anthony Wayne: I was uh I'm an opening night of Tootsie, not opening night of, but we were uh we were it was like one of the opening when you when you have your first show, I don't know if anybody understands, but when you have your first Broadway show, the first day of rehearsal, you go into the rehearsal space, everyone's there, it's all the all the investors, all the money people, all the dope people who were the who helped make the show and write it and produce it.

[12:34] Anthony Wayne: And um and I remember walking in and uh I was like, wow, I'm the only black man in this room.

[12:41] Anthony Wayne: And I don't think anybody knows it. Because we were all so happy just to be there. And I was happy to be there too. However, that's not their experience because I wake up in the morning and I'm a black man, you know what I'm saying? Like, I mean, we wake up in the morning, we're of color. We walk down the street and we're of color. It's like now you have to kind of watch yourself and watch what you do in these spaces. And so that extra work they in most people in those spaces don't know.

[13:06] Sharone Sayegh: So yeah, and if I can just add that that whole idea of like this added pressure, um, I've had quite a few experiences in a couple shows where I'll be like the only um actor or the only female that's of the region that the show is representing, somewhere in the Middle East, perhaps. And like the only person who speaks the language that's not English in the show, for example. And it's like I sometimes feel like there's this mindset from the creative team of like they've checked a box of like, okay, we've got one person, so we're good, right? And anytime there's a language question, we're just we'll just ask your own. And anytime there's like a cultural question, we're just gonna ask your own instead of getting like a dramaturge and perhaps a dialect coach, right?

And it's like that's not I didn't sign up for that. Like, I'm happy to share my culture. I love, you know, I want to, and I'm and the language and whatnot, but like that's you know, I'm also just I just want to be an actor, right? Just like everybody else in the room, right? And I don't want to like give language notes to fellow actors, that's awkward. I don't want to be like, we're actually in this country, this wouldn't be appropriate culturally, whatever. Like, you know, you want to feel like you're representing the region, and you want to feel everybody who has been cast would appropriately represent the region, and that shouldn't be like on you as an actor to be responsible for that, you know.

Because then when you have like family and friends from that region come see this show, they're like, Well, why did they do this? Or why did they say it like this? And it's like they're asking me as if I'm responsible for the rest of the cast, and it's like I'm not, you know.

[14:41] Sharone Sayegh: So yeah. I feel because in that kind of situation, it's like, okay, I'm hired to be on stage. This is what I'm hired to do. Right. I'm not the dramaturg, I am not the ex quote unquote expert, you know, like this is just my lived experience. And so this is what I can provide to you as a as you know, the the person that I am in my identity, but I didn't, you know, in that kind of situation, which I'm sure we've all been in, of like, okay, well, now I have to explain what you know the black church is like, or now I have to explain what this part of my Middle Eastern culture is like, and it's it's just like I didn't quite sign up for that.

[15:26] Anthony Wayne: Yeah, I don't think I don't think they have the tools to know how to speak. I don't think they that I don't think we've I think we can tell them, but if we tell them, then we feel like oh we're gonna lose the job, or we're gonna be seen as difficult, or we're gonna have we're gonna be at attitude. I'm gonna be the angry black man. Or it's like, oh, you don't want an attitude, so you know.

[15:45] Sharone Sayegh: Right. It's that whole uh microaggression that comes out where it's like, hmm, you think you could sing it more urban? It's like what you mean urban? You know, but I can't go there because I'm like, okay, sure. And here I am trying to say, okay, validate me, give me a job. But now it's like, am I willing to throw that out the window to tell you about yourself and to check you and to give you the tools that you need to move forward? And will you be open to receiving what the tools are? You can't make people be who they're who they're not. I've learned that the hard way of these years. You know, they're people are gonna be who they are. You have to meet people where they are. And sometimes like I I meet people with grace. That's why I call I uh I find myself giving you grace to understand that you don't know because you're ignorant in this, not to be offensive, but you're ignorant in not knowing what you need to do to be better.

[16:36] Anthony Wayne: Matter of fact, I found myself educating myself with the trans community. Like, but I'm not calling my trans friends saying, Hey, tell me about how it is being trans and let me put down your pants and let me educate me. No, like who does that? Or be like, oh, I have a conversation about trans. Like, why don't I get my trans friend to come and like, you know, let me it's just it's just a mess. I mean, but it's uh I I I I think it's it's a lot across the board that needs to be learned. Um, but uh but I think because of the the the the root of everything that is, like right now, bro. It's about to open back up. Yay, no, hold on, wait. Pause what what we do what are we doing? What's going on? What's it giving?

You know, women uh how women, you know, but also how does that mean they're gonna like fire everybody and then hire all the people who you spoke up early, earlier? Are they gonna hire now, uh, you know, black indigenous, you know, people of color, uh, you know, Asians, or have now they're gonna replace everybody with now just to make everything better? Because even if you do that, it's like the education is still not there.

[17:42] Sharone Sayegh: Yeah. And and something something I actually I encountered today. This is a quote um that I found, and it says, accountability feels like an attack when you're not ready to acknowledge how your behavior harms others. I'm gonna read that one more time. I just really want everybody to receive this. That's a that's a word. Hallelujah. It is a word, right? So it it said the the quote is accountability feels like an attack when you're not ready to acknowledge how your behavior harms others.

[18:18] Anthony Wayne: Come on, and that's just a whole word, and it really reflects a lot of what you were just talking about. And I feel like, you know, when it comes to um, you know, this situation of like, okay, how do we how do we fix this? How do we um you know fix this tokenism problem or this situation where somebody's the only this, the only that? And I had a conversation with a friend today about this of like, you know, some people in our in our last uh episode, uh one of our guests was talking about how someone always reaches out to them to say, hey, um, you know, do you know any Asian actors? And it's like, yes, and what kind of actors are you looking for? Are you looking for Asian actors who sing? Are you looking for a dance?

Are you looking for this character type? Like, you have to be specific. And you know, and when it comes to stuff like that, it's like, okay, that's great that some people have that Rolodex or whatever of like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I can give you this kind of person or whatever. But at the end of the day, I just feel like, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I just feel like when it comes to fixing it, it also comes where, for example, for casting. I just think if you're having a really hard time looking for a Middle Eastern person, an Asian person, a trans person, it just means that in your personal life, you need to have more friends that aren't like you.

[19:47] Sharone Sayegh: It just that's really just what it comes down to. Because in an industry where we love to hire our friends, nothing wrong with that. What does your friend circle look like? You know, also, can I add to that? I think so. I was um, you know, part of that kind of the casting process for a show that had to do with the Middle East, and the and I like sent so many names to casting and whatnot, and the director once said to me, like, well, you know, like the level of talent from the the Middle Eastern pool of actors that we have in the city is just not at the same level as these Caucasian actors that are coming in. And I said to him, of course it's not. I for example, I'm fierce, okay. Like, I am I am a fierce actor.

I'm not I'm not trying to be like whatever, but like, and I couldn't even get an audition for the lead of a Broadway show until a couple years ago, even though I had been on Broadway before, even though casting actors loved me, blah blah blah, and I know it's a lot of times it was because of my ethnicity, right? Like, they're not gonna cast someone who looks like me with my name, blah blah blah. And until a Middle Eastern show came to Broadway, they're like, Oh, okay, now you can audition for a prince for this principal role, right? So you have these Caucasian actors in the city that are getting so many more auditions, right? They're also like it. I mean, it boils down to like the whole system in America, right?

Like, they're living in more affluent neighborhoods, they can afford to take more dance classes and more voice lessons. They're going to the better schools. Of course, they're gonna be fierce at auditions, right? And these BIPOC actors, these young actors are not gonna have the same opportunities. And even with natural talent, we all know when it comes down to it, like experience is is the thing, right? You do your first Broadway show, and it's like you learn so much, right? And so, like that experience and that like constant auditioning and that constant, like exp I don't know how to else say it, experience makes you a better performer. So if you're not giving those opportunities to these BIPOC actors, of course they're not gonna come in as you know, it's gonna be their one audition in three weeks, and they're gonna be freaking out compared to this Caucasian actor who has had six auditions that week. You know what I'm saying?

[22:04] Sharone Sayegh: So it's like it's not only just about talent, it's about the whole how the whole system is built.

[22:09] Anthony Wayne: Yep. Yeah, you know, I I uh yes, I agree. I agree with that. Uh I also think that there is, you know, um work to be done. Uh I'm I'm uh ever since I've uh started my you know, been in leadership positions at this point with like directing and producing and things like that. Uh and also starting the Bible 1c3, I found myself looking at things from the bigger picture. What is the bigger picture and what's the answer? You know, I pray for two things, clarity and structure in my life. Clarity to understand what how I'm speaking when I'm communicating with people, you know, so I can be clear, and then structure of how to get to the goal of what it is I'm trying to get to. And so those are two things that that um that God, universe, whatever you want to believe, gave to me at the beginning of the year.

And I say that because a lot of times um we will want these spaces to adjust to us. We will wonder why why aren't they seeing more of us? Why aren't they giving me the chance? Why aren't they X, Y, and Z? And I think it's more of an accountability of you to step it up and saying, okay, well, I know the greatness of myself. I know what I need to do in order to get this part. Whether this person is Caucasian or nah. Like, especially, I mean, especially if the piece itself does not require you to be that. It's like, okay, so what are you doing then? How are you learning the show? How are you stepping up to take these acting lessons outside? How are you stepping up to go take those dance classes?

Who are you talking to to get in the environment to learn who the people are so that you can try to be better within the situation so that other people like you can be seen and know the work that you've done to get where you need to go. As opposed to sitting there and waiting for them to give you something. Not I'm not speaking to you specifically, Sharone.

[24:07] Sharone Sayegh: Okay, I know.

[24:10] Anthony Wayne: Sherman, it's your fault. No, I'm kidding. No, kidding. No. But I'm saying, and I say that because there were times I remember, and not to derail your conversation, uh, Aaron, I know you probably want to move on to other things, but I I just have these memories. I remember I was doing Pippin, and not not to kind of talk about the shows, but um, I remember I was doing Pippin and I tell people the story, and I've said this before. There was a a moment where we had to be animals on stage. And one of the animals I picked in the workshop was uh a chicken. It was me and another uh colleague of mine. And so I was a ch uh and Diane, Diane Paul is the director, she was fabulous, she was good, she was dope.

She was like, okay, you know, you guys just pick what you want to be. And we were like, oh, we want to be chickens and we want to be pigs, and we're in the field and we're gonna like mess with Pippin and we're gonna blah blah blah, you know, and all this stuff. It was like a exper an ex and um just uh uh improv class in in on Broadway. So we're doing this stuff and we're figuring out all this stuff, and then, but little did I know, I was also doing the Manson Trio, right?

[25:14] Anthony Wayne: So to me, I thought that's what people would like remember the most. However, that part, it was a part where Pippin was downstairs and we were downstairs, we were like collecting like chickens, and it was so funny. It was so funny, because the moment was funny, but it was acting so well that we had a good time, we kind of went there. But I would come out the stage door and I would and people would say, "There's the chicken. There's the chicken. Oh, he's such a great chicken. Oh, the chicken, oh my god, can I have your autographed chicken?" And it's like, I thought the channel is. Bitch, look, I mean, I'm sorry. I wanna I said, they remember me as a chicken, child. The chicken. And so I mean, not to degrade what the work that we did, which was amazing.

However, as a black man, I don't think I thought about it in the moment we were creating it. You know, but let me be the pig instead. Because then people may, you know, sometimes there's some account. My point is that this is sometimes there's some accountability in the choices that you're making when you're trying to do what you have to do in order to be greater, greater. And I remember one more thing, I was leaving the show, because I left the video to do my own show, and I remember one of the producers. I was like, "Yeah, I got this theater down the street. I'm doing Mighty Real, it's gonna be amazing, blah blah." And he was like, "Oh my god, that's so great. Imagine we have been promoting it for the past like month, so everybody pretty much knew."

And then he says to me, "I hate that you're leaving, but because you're such a great chicken." And I was like, "Wow." He was like, "We're gonna miss you in our show." Not even thinking that this black man sat up there and free created and produced his own situation down the street off Broadway on 9th Avenue. Like, but that's not his, that's not um, I was expecting too much from him. He doesn't understand that because he's not thinking like we're thinking of how hard it is to get what we're getting. So and I also just want to say that I did see that production of Pippin and my honestly, I'm not just saying this to gas you up, but it really was the Manson trio. Like that was just because I've never that was the first time I've even seen a production and s of Pippin, so that was the first time I saw it, and I just remember that being so incredible because of how synchronized y'all were, and just the movement was beautiful. So know that that is your legacy with me with that show. Thanks, my back still, my back still hurts, Hattie.

[27:48] Sharone Sayegh: Don't break your back out now, okay? We still need you on Broadway.

[27:52] Anthony Wayne: Amen. Amen. Cool to Chakalia, okay. All right, everyone, we're gonna take a really quick break.

[28:08] Aaron Michael Ray: So, with all of this being said, just about tokenism and everything, I feel like even in those situations, there are these if you look real hard enough, there are some silver linings. Uh as at least I would say as far as when you witness this happening. Cause I feel like even when you've seen shows where there has been, you know, an unfortunate case of tokenism, you remember those performances and you carry it with you. Because I feel like when I my first Broadway show that I saw was how to succeed, and um I just remember looking on that stage and I was like, okay, well, it's all white people on this stage. But I see this black girl over here, and she is twirling down. And I was like, I kept looking at her because I was so just in awe because not only was it my first Broadway show experience, but like I saw someone who looked like me on that stage, and you know, again, it kind of goes back to like kind of putting pressure on that per on that performer that's not exactly fair, but at the same time, like you still carry that with you, and I feel like that was even before I started performing even more after that, that was a moment where I said, "Okay, I want to have that feeling that I'm feeling right now."

Like, hopefully, not with you know, me being the only black person on the stage or whatever that is, but I want to have I want you know, a young black kid, a young black queer kid or whoever, you know, to just look at, you know, on stage when they when we're all performing and just say, like, "Hey, I really see myself up there. Like, if they can do it, then I can do it." And I feel like that's just, you know, what we all initially want, right? I feel like even though it does add a lot of pressure to that person, it's it carry you carry it with you, and the does and you also carry the desire to create that space for us in your career as your career goes on. And because of that, both of you have done just that and have created these spaces or performances or shows full on productions, both of you, where you have created that space.

And I really want to pick your brain about that. Um, Sharone, I remember a few months ago, you uh were in part of creating uh Minasified, and that was a musical virtual event that featured you and other Manasa artists. And please, I'm gonna make sure I get this right. Manasseh stands for Middle Eastern North African South Asian. Is that correct?

[30:53] Sharone Sayegh: Totally correct. Yes.

[30:55] Aaron Michael Ray: I feel really proud of myself, man. Um so yes, so Sharone created a musical virtual event um featuring Sharone and other Manasa artists that you also directed. And so can you tell us more about how you came up with this event and what was the purpose of it?

[31:15] Sharone Sayegh: Yeah, so um the Manasseh community, I think it's also like like you're saying, like you want to get it right. I think it's a new term for our industry in the past couple years. I mean, we've always been here, but I think people have been confused as to how to categorize it. And it even comes down to like a couple years ago, we fought with SAG and not fought, but lobbying with SAG and Equity to get like another box to check what we know our ethnicity was because we didn't fit in the Caucasian box, and like I'm not necessarily mixed race, like both my parents are the same thing, right? But there was never like a box for me to check. There was never like another, you know. So now we have a box with SAG and Equity, which is awesome.

Um basically the way Manassified the show came about is my good friend Rona Siddiqui, who is a Manasseh composer, she's an amazing composer that I've worked with in the city. She was chosen as Ars Nova's um vision resident for the month of February. And Ars Nova is just a wonderful theater that I've worked at that I love so much, and they're very artist forward. And throughout the pandemic, they've chosen a bunch of different um artists, and they said, like, you were you're gonna be our vision resident for this month, and we want you to curate whatever kind of content you want to curate for this month, which is amazing. So Rona was chosen for the month of February, and so she like gathered like five of her Manasseh friends on a little Zoom and was like, "I want to curate a month of Manasseh events, like that's what I want to do.

I want to like represent our community, I want to like show different aspects of our community, music, dance, acting, all different kinds of things." Um, so that was cool. We had like an awesome Zoom, like brainstorm of the kinds of um content we could create, and I kind of suggested how about like bringing a night of music of doing like musical theater or pop or you know, well-known Western songs, but like Manasifying them, right? Like like changing the arrangements or singing them in a more Manasseh way because like uh music is like such a big thing in Manasa culture, and it's so different from Western music. We know the instrumentation and the way it's sung and like the tonality and the riffs, you know.

So I was like, wouldn't it be cool to kind of like introduce all this new Broadway and pop material in a Manasseh way? Um so Rona was all about it, and she was like, "Do you want to just take the reins and produce it and direct it?" And I was like, "Yeah, girl." Um so yeah, so and I was like really passionate about like making sure the whole team was Manasa. So we got this like amazing young um Manasa music director and arranger who named Mona, who was fantastic, and I got like six other performers that were all within the Manasseh region. And we basically like met with our arranger and said, like, I want to do like this one guy, Vishal um Vedia. I don't know if you know him, he's insane, and his voice is ridiculous.

He's like, "I want to do a Bollywood version of Luck Be a Lady Tonight." And she was like, "Okay." And she made this like sick arrangement, you know. Um she made all these like amazing arrangements of these songs, and we we recorded, you know, this was like at the height of the pandemic, so we recorded them all audio-wise, like at home, and had a wonderful audio engineer put it all together with like musicians from literally around the world. We had like a tabla player in India send us some tabla tracks, like full-on crazy. And then we like went to uh Central Park uh the day after a snowstorm in February, and like we filmed basically like little mini music videos to go along with the show. And you know, Manasseh itself, like Middle Eastern, North American, and South Asian is quite a large region, right?

So, like, even within that, there's so many different um cultures, languages, musical styles. Um, so it was a really cool, like eclectic and very different sounding night, and I it was so well received, which made me so happy. And it was like just I was just really proud to like show the theater community like look at all these fierce performers we have, look at all these fierce musicians we have, look at all these fierce arrangers we have. Like, there's just so much that we that can be done here, and you know, basically use us.

[35:38] Aaron Michael Ray: I really love that. Shout out to you. I think that is such an amazing feat for yes, round of applause for Sharone. I feel like just to do I'm something I always talk about in general, um, slightly off topic, but something I always talk about in general is like within Corona and quarantine. I don't know about y'all, but there is no pressure on my end to you know feel like we have to create and feel like we have to do all these things because there's no theater happening, you know. So, like, that doesn't mean you need to add that pressure. So, for you to do this fully fledged virtual production is so amazing, and I just think that that is so you deserve a pat on the back for that. I just that's incredible.

[36:25] Sharone Sayegh: My pleasure.

[36:27] Aaron Michael Ray: And so, Anthony, you also wrote and starred in Mighty Real, a fabulous Sylvester musical, as well as what one of the founders of the Black Broadway Men Organization. Uh, so can you tell us what inspired you to create both of these works?

[36:45] Anthony Wayne: Wow. Um, thank you for that. Um, uh, as I mentioned prior, I was uh doing Pippin, and actually before then I was doing Priscilla. And um when I joined the show after Anything Goes, I had already been uh exposed to a set way of creating a show of like writing a structure of putting like a show together and like with music and with text and just trying to do it in a way that makes sense. And so I was at home, this was in 2010 now by this point, and I uh well I'm going backwards, and I saw uh on TV one, I saw a show about this disco singer named Sylvester, and I was like, this guy is really dope. And um, I've been singing really high for a long time, and so I didn't realize that when I got his greatest hits that I was singing like him all the time. And so I really fell in love with his story and his music and the resilience of him being his true self regardless of any situation.

[37:49] Anthony Wayne: And it it it it's it spoke to me as a as a black man living in America and knowing that your voice is powerful. And one of the things I tell people, even when I'm teaching my students at this point, is like um, you know, never be never be ashamed of the loudness of your voice and the brightness of your light. And and so uh I I realized that he had that kind of resilience. And so um when I left Anything Goes to come to do uh Priscilla, I'd already kind of made the structure of how I would think a night, a concert night of his music should go. And then I met my producing partner's name is Kindrell Bowman, and so um he saw me writing and going to different producers and trying to get it made, and he was like, he has a very entrepreneurial spirit.

And he was like, Well, why don't we, why don't I just help you, you know, get it out to people and help you like create it. So he and I got together, and that's how we became a team, which is Anthony Ken, which is what it is now, and um, and so anyway, we're long story short, we ended up just like using all of um we we we end up using everything that we had to uh to get the show out there, and even being in Priscilla, I remember the because at the beginning the girls come down, they're singing "It's Raining Men." So it was like a sign. It was like, oh, you're supposed to do this. So I talked to Jackie, Jacqueline B. Arnold and Anastasia McCleskey. I talked to both of them about it. And they were like, Yeah, let's just do it.

Next thing you know, we were doing it and we were raising money on Kickstarter, because you know, you need you gotta have money to make it happen. So then we ended up using the money to buy the weeks for the theater and um get the lawyer and clear the songs and all the work and stuff, and next you know, I was a producer. And so all the knowledge over all these years of taking Mighty Reel across the country and taking it, uh, even potentially being it to bringing it to Broadway with that kind of work, even has allowed me the the knowledge of not thinking about me as much. Think more about we. What is it that I can do for us? What is it that me that I can do to make sure that we win? And so when you have a bunch of people that are around you, or people that see, you know, you're a tribe who believe in what you're doing and are like all about making it work, then there's that's there's nothing you can't do. So that's the kind of motivation I try to give young people, and um let them know how to move forward.

[40:17] Anthony Wayne: And that being said, um, throughout the years, I started realizing that me being the only one in these spaces in certain situations or certain places, I realized I was I called it being approved. That's the word I was using. It was like, oh, I'm of yeah, I'm here because I'm approved. Meaning, like, um I know people are like, what does that mean? Uh it means that you're non-threatening. It means that you are not coming, like that you're um that you will do what everybody says, and that you'll kind of follow the rules and that you won't be, you know, they they know you already. Right. Uh, but the question is, do you know yourself? Do you really know yourself? Are you really open to not um to be to not sell out for lack of a better term?

You know, and also, what are you gonna do with the platform that you got? So, so so that being said, I digress, it brought me to realizing that there's a lot of black men in the Broadway theater that I don't know. And it bothered me. It was like, why do we not know each other? Why are we not connected? Why are we not trying to support each other? There were other people that were doing things that I would go to and I would see their shows, and I would let them know that I'm here. You know what I'm saying? I bought a ticket, I'm here, you know, I just want to support you, what have you. But then I realized some of them weren't coming to my shows, some of them weren't supporting me, and then I had like resentment against them.

I was like, oh, maybe they don't like me, all this other stuff, and all this other this saboteur that's in your head of what you're doing. It's like, why are you taking it so personally and not just meeting people where they are? And so, and so that being said, I was like, well, it was just zip. I woke up until you got was like, what are you gonna do? And I was like, well, um, be the change you want to see. If you want, if you want to be with other black men in the Broadway in the theater community, reach out, tell them hi, tell them you want to connect, create the space. So I found myself doing that, and I I had a Zoom with these specific men. It was it was uh Ahmad Simmons, Sir Brock Warren, Terrence Archie, Isaiah Josiah, and uh uh uh uh one more, one more thing, I'm missing, I'm missing one more.

Um who am I missing? Uh one more. Uh um, I'm sorry, who whoever that is, I'm sorry. Uh wait, wait, wait. Um anyway, so so they're part they're all we we all basically created Black Broadway Men. And um, and that that idea came up because it was like, how am I going what am I going to think and how am I gonna put people together? And what am I gonna call it? And so um that's that's what ended up happening. That oh, James Lane, that's who it is. I apologize, James. James T. Lane was actually the person that I spoke to about it first. I remember it was maybe like three years ago when I talked to him, I said, we had coffee, or he took me to high tea. And I was like, I was like, you know, what can we do to get other black men together?

Because people were passing away and people were dying, and there was also people that were before us that we don't know. That I felt like we need to be that for them. And he felt the same way. And there was a guy who passed away, um uh who uh uh was very close to us, and um and the theater community, his name is Eric LeWan Summers, and I don't know if anybody remembers him, but he was fantastic. And losing him to cancer really brought people together, but it made me say, wow, I wish I would have had more time with him. I wish he would have known he was more supported. Uh one time I went to his house before he passed and it was just me and him just having conversation about everything and I was like I wish I would have been more of a friend to him so that's what it is it is that 501c3 nonprofit organization for black men to celebrate educate and motivate each other and to celebrate educate and motivate black men of the Broadway theater community by creating by by by creating strength with each other creating unity with each other and as well as celebrating the legacy of those that have come before us because we are the legacy of those that come after us and so we've done some philanthropic things we've given money to to Houston to folk who were down there who like had their pipes busted and you know didn't have money and gave away money to like a young black guy in Houston who was an artist who didn't have money because he couldn't afford it in the pandemic and all those things so you know we've also done some voting things you know been very vocal about voting we've been very vocal about um you know things within ourselves programming when it comes to educating ourselves with the um with uh five financial freedom like health and wellness you know uh mental health and like we've done all these programs within ourselves over the past year so blackbroadwaymen.org is the website and um anthonyken.com is the website for the show stuff but we're doing so many other things matter of fact we just sold a Soul for Christmas down to Virginia Beach so it's gonna be great so my point is at the end of the day is because I feel like I'm talking too long is um you could you could do anything you want to do if you just put your mind to it you know so I'm really grateful for it and I'm grateful for this conversation this space and as well as you Sharone.

[43:57] Sharone Sayegh: Okay oh Anthony I'm so grateful for you and also so inspired because with this with this black men organization because um about four years ago me and like four friends started this like same idea like this Manasseh group for actors because we were like we all see each other at auditions right but like we don't we don't have this community and we need we should create it right we haven't gotten so far as to making a 501c3 that's amazing that you've done that we so far just have a Facebook group but uh but it actually has allowed us to like meet each other support each other, you know share like what each other is doing and I think that's so important and I think it's also so important for like all of these, you know, I hate to say the word minority because we're actually the majority in the world compared to like let's talk about that but these quote unquote minority groups to support each other and lift each other up and and just have continue having conversations like this I think it's so beautiful and I'm so grateful.

[46:32] Anthony Wayne: Thank you.

[46:32] Sharone Sayegh: Well you know and and great for your organization too I think I think it kind of makes it full circle because if you think of the message of Come From Away you think of how you know people are brought into this situation by happenstance you know we all are brought into these situations on Broadway stages by happenstance because none of us really care about each other for real for real at the end of the day. I just want my money and I want to I I gotta check and I want my that part but we're all on stage you know we all have individual contracts and you know but but we all end up caring about each other. We all love learning about each other we become kind of a small family but then it's like the show's over and the family just like disappeared and you don't talk to each other for a long time.

And it's unfortunate, but it's like what who's gonna do the work to step up to keep you together to learn more about yourselves, especially if you're a my minority, majority. Um, and so and so it's about doing that work. So I challenge people to do that work and figure out what the answer is. Stop complaining about stuff and stop venting about how you feel. That's how you feel is valid. However, how I felt when I was six years old and eight years old and ten years old enough, but you nobody cared. Okay, like I got my ass beat because no, because I I did what my mama said, do what I tell you. It's like it was it wasn't about how you felt. It was just do what I tell you, but I don't feel like I don't care, you know.

So, but I think that at the end of the day, how you feel is valid at at this point for us to have a voice. So now the question is what are you gonna do with that voice? What kind of work are you gonna do? Challenge yourself to be great and greater within yourself and and make a difference. And if you don't see the difference, be the difference, period.

[48:14] Aaron Michael Ray: Hey, man. All right, yeah, that is, and honestly, I just feel like that's a great place to end up because that is I hope everyone is encouraged by this conversation as much as I am today, because you know, like we, yes, you know, this episode is about tokenism, but we also wanted to just flip that around and say, well, how have we, what are the situations where we said, you know what, we're not gonna be the tokens anymore. And I think both of y'all have provided both of those things, and you are either starting to or are creating or in the middle of creating a community within yourselves, and I think that is just so powerful. So thank you both for coming on today, Sharone. It's so good to see you, Anthony. I'm really glad that you're here as well. It's a pleasure.

[49:00] Anthony Wayne: Look, thank you for this experience, and and thank you, and all the work you're doing, Aaron, and making this happen. We appreciate you cool to Chocolia, okay?

[49:08] Sharone Sayegh: Yeah, you're providing the platform, you know.

[49:11] Aaron Michael Ray: Right. You know what? We're trying, okay? So that's that's just what we're all here to do. Thank you. I really appreciate that. Thank you, and thank your team, everybody, for making it all come together. So you guys are awesome. Thank you.

[49:23] Aaron Michael Ray: All right, y'all. Well, we are signing off for today. Um, for the information on uh Black Broadway Men or uh what is the other website, Anthony um Anthony Ken.

[49:37] Anthony Wayne: Yeah, you can oh you can just go to mine you can go to anthonyken.org or mister Mr. Awain.com is my website. That's my personal website. That's also my Instagram and other M-R-A-W-A-Y-N-E. Or you can just go to blackbroadwaymen.org or anthonyken.com. K-E-N is the is that how you spell that.

[49:54] Aaron Michael Ray: Thank you very much for the opportunity. We'll make sure, we'll put that in the bio. We'll put the link in bio. Um, all right, y'all. I I am very much in love with you both. And so we're signing off. Bye, thank you.

[50:09] Anthony Wayne: Take care, y'all.