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[0:00] Juan Michael Porter II: Hello and welcome to the Critics' Table.

[0:02] Juan Michael Porter II: Every episode, we are joined by three luminary theater critics as they review the latest shows on and off Broadway.

[0:10] Juan Michael Porter II: You may agree with one, all of them, or none at all, but we ask that you listen first and ask questions later.

[0:17] Juan Michael Porter II: Let's join the table, shall we?

[0:20] Juan Michael Porter II: Welcome to the Critics' Table, a new podcast where we discuss the hottest shows in New York.

[0:25] Juan Michael Porter II: I'm Juan Michael Porter II, and today we are talking about Macbeth.

[0:29] Juan Michael Porter II: Let's hear from our other panelists today.

[0:32] Bedatri D. Choudhury: Hi, uh, my name is Bedatri, and I'm happy to be here and discussing the play with, you know, all you lovely people.

[0:39] Ran Xia: Hi, this is Ran Xia.

[0:41] Ran Xia: I'm also excited.

[0:42] Ran Xia: Yay.

[0:43] Juan Michael Porter II: Now let's hear what this show is about.

[0:45] Juan Michael Porter II: Macbeth.

[0:47] Juan Michael Porter II: The highly anticipated upcoming production of Macbeth on Broadway, starring DANIEL CRAIG in his return to Broadway as Macbeth, and Ruth Negga's Broadway debut as Lady Macbeth, opened on Broadway at the Longacre Theatre, a tale of malice, matrimony, and murder.

[1:02] Juan Michael Porter II: Macbeth tells the story of one couple's obsession with power and their guilt after doing the unthinkable for 15 weeks only.

[1:11] Juan Michael Porter II: This thrilling new production will capture the passion and ferocity of Shakespeare's most haunting text like never before.

[1:18] Juan Michael Porter II: The famous play is directed by Tony Award winner SAM GOLD.

[1:22] Juan Michael Porter II: Now, let's jump in. What were our initial thoughts?

[1:25] Bedatri D. Choudhury: Um, so I have to like, you know, put this on the table right away that I went to undergrad and grad school for literature. So this is a play I have read and watched in many iterations. And I, you know, and I was very, very excited about this. But I must say, and I'm sad to report that I have seen better iterations and, you know, better iterations in way, way, way underfunded productions.

[1:52] Ran Xia: I would agree.

[1:53] Bedatri D. Choudhury: Well, I kind of agree, and then I think there are stuff to be appreciated as a theater maker. I have also seen so many different iterations of this play from a five people ensemble stripped down production in the middle of a basement theater to, you know, a two people, two women playing all of the characters in Macbeth, um, to, you know, publishing productions to Sleep No More, all of the adaptations over the years. And it felt like this production was trying to combine the downtown theater sensitivities to a more palatable uh kind of aesthetics to a Broadway goer. And I'm not sure if it kind of reached either, unfortunately.

[2:43] Bedatri D. Choudhury: I'm just gonna say that it didn't reach. For me, the show was trying to do the most and came up with the least, and I often thought, okay, do you have an idea of what story you want to tell? Because it's all over the place. I have seen open-air productions that don't have massive sets that still felt contained within a scene. And because it is all almost open air until this moment when a wall suddenly starts to move, and you think that's where they put all their money that they didn't spend on the set. Um, it felt like they were all um acting in an echo and that there was no grounding for the performers. Um this is even though the other actors do sort of movie set um special effects using a fog machine handheld fog um guns that they or smoke machine guns that they use to create uh spooky effects around the actors, and then they use a card to like waft it.

And Ran, you can talk more about this um better than I'm able to. But it felt like, oh, you're trying to shoot a movie. Oh, that's what it is. Blair Witch Project. That's what this felt like to me. When I was a teenager, that movie came out, and I was like, this is really low budget, and they're doing all these things trying to create these special effects. But the thing is, you don't see it happening in Blair Witch Project. Here you see it, and it's like, okay, I guess we're all players, but why isn't this better integrated? I think that SAM GOLD didn't know how to deliver that concept in a way that served the story.

[4:15] Ran Xia: It's very hard. Uh, and I won't and I think I'm probably a little bit uh more accepting to this because this is something I do as a scrappy theater maker because a lot of a lot of the times, because of the budgetary limit, we have to engage everybody, and all of the performers have to do handheld effects. And we kind of embrace this, we are all telling a story together kind of element to deliver a show uh without anything, using miming or you know, this idea of anything can transform into anything else, but it's so hard to achieve that on a Broadway stage where there is a huge moat between the performers and the audience. You know, you have people all the way up in the balcony, and that intimacy, that like immediacy of I'm a player, and all of a sudden I'm setting up this new stage for other characters to jump in, is not going to happen in that immersive way that you can see in Secret theater or the tank, or you know, even BAM has a better fitted space, like in a round for it. I actually really, really wish this production could have been in a round. I think it would have worked better with all of the handheld stuff, but I think we're all kind of on the same page about it.

[5:45] Bedatri D. Choudhury: In the beginning, the stagecraft and everything looked pretty interesting. It did look promising. I was intrigued. But I think at the end of the day, and we all say this over and over again, what is the story you're telling? And it doesn't matter if you have like 24 guns for this. It's just or like a walking, uh not walking, a working stove where someone's making a soup all the time, and you can see like the steam come out, all that is great. But at the end of the day, I think, you know, and especially when you're dealing with something like Macbeth, which everyone knows the story. It's like, where are you taking the story? Where what is your reading of this? You know, there have been so many iterations where sometimes Lady Macbeth is seen to be like the puppet master, she's so powerful, and like, you know, and then sometimes she's like the seductive wife, and sometimes, as we've seen in the most recent um film adaptation, they're an older couple, the Macbeths are an older couple.

So, you know, it's it's interesting to see that every time there's a Macbeth, and that is where I felt most let down here, uh, let down here because I was just like, Are you trying to seduce your husband into doing this? Why are you so meek about it? Because it's just I mean, things just didn't like the right hand side and the left hand side didn't quite correspond for me uh when it comes to the story.

[7:11] Ran Xia: I was really intrigued by the setup because uh the three witches were already cooking in the pre-show, and you can smell the food that's coming out of it, and I was extremely intrigued by that idea, especially you know, they're in modern clothing, and I thought what we are going towards is the witches are telling the story in the beginning, and then we're putting together this context of because sh uh they they they also kind of narrate this context to the audience in the show in which they tell the audience um that Macbeth came around because King James asked, commissioned Shakespeare and his company to create something about witches because King James hated witches. And what came out of Shakespeare and Co. was this complex story in which the premonitions from the witches kind of drove Macbeth to madness and chaos and murder.

But do we blame the witches? So I kind of start to think about that aspect of the play and whether or not our narrative in 2022 was going towards that. Just because the witches are invested in this character, are they to blame for the choices he makes? But I I kind of lost track, or you know, the production kind of lost that direction halfway through, and everything kind of got a little bit muddled.

[8:44] Bedatri D. Choudhury: To that point, Macbeth is a play where the witches don't have to be real, and then there I've seen productions where it's a question of are the witches in his mind? Um, are they actually these mystical creatures, the the Moirae or the Fates? And everything that happens could happen without their um involvement. Like this is something that could very much so happen. The supernatural element is more of a like, oh my gosh, I'm I'm considering did they like King James hated witches because he felt that they were responsible for some bad things that happened and he felt they had to be eradicated. But like the brilliance of it is like, well, these bad things were going to happen anyway, and like you're actually to blame for them.

But that didn't seem to inform anything about this production. Um what was interesting here, uh when I say interesting in the British sense, if not good, is that the witches were played by more than the three main characters. Their lines were traded around. And I guess you could say that the idea is that like everyone is immersed in this plot of like making these things happen, but I didn't feel that that was grounded either.

[9:45] Ran Xia: Um what did you all think about the use of trading of lines? I really wish there could have been more clarity because I am I am on board with trading off characters or trading off storytelling devices. So there was one moment uh where the witch character played by Maria Dizzia, who was wonderful in that character in all of the roles she plays, which really helped with the clarity in that moment, but still she was in the same costume, I think, and in the same position as the witch cooking at the same prep table, and then later on cooking at the same prep table, uh wearing the same clothes with same the with the same scene like castmates as uh Lady Macduff. So I wasn't sure why the choice there was exactly that. Or you know, everything is a choice in terms of theatrical design, and was there or were we supposed to draw a parallel between the witch and Lady Macduff? Um, which I don't think we should. So that that was a moment of confusion for me.

[11:03] Bedatri D. Choudhury: Yeah, and similarly, like Amber Gray, who I quite like as Banquo, and then uh I think she plays um Lady Macbeth's maid later. And I swear I was like, is Banquo caring for Lady Macbeth in her deathbed? That makes no sense, you know. So I I absolutely agree with Rand that you know I'm okay with people treating lines, but it's like, and we've seen this, and you know, and Rand, of course, has done this way more times than I have. It's like, you know, that you if they're playing different characters, change something, you know, make them wear a scarf or something so that we know it's a different person. Because otherwise, seriously, I would not blame people for thinking Banquo is nursing Lady Macbeth on our deathbed. That gets to the physicality of it for me in that that direction that I didn't feel that the actors were given um the were told we need to make these things distinct.

[11:58] Juan Michael Porter II: It was just sort of assumed, um, and I'm like, well, but you need to actually tell me that because you're in charge of this and you're telling me where to look. And if I am looking there and I don't know who I'm looking at, then what is going on? There's a shortcoming in theater makers creating these very classical texts and productions, is that we make these assumptions that these are stories that are familiar to all, but that's not the case, and even if the audience is all theater people, there are stuff that we will not remember in those texts. Vidatri, you've read this play many times and I've seen this play so many times and I still discover something new and still like, oh, I forgot about this thing, um, and still can get confused.

So I was just imagining what if somebody who has never read Macbeth and who has never seen a production of this, they will come and be confused by what's going on on stage. Were there any production elements like, well, let's talk about the production design in the first place and just go from there.

[13:14] Bedatri D. Choudhury: I'm really not, but I did really appreciate the sensory experiences between lighting and scent and aroma, and you know, usually you don't get that part. And then that open air cavernous space did kind of tickle me because that was a really intriguing foundation on which you can build so many different variations. So that was the first impression. Interestingly, I wasn't, and this is sadly like there, it wasn't a lot of production design element that really truly impressed me or surprised me overall because there just seemed to be a lot of, like I said before, downtown theater tricks that I'm actually personally familiar with. And I think, you know, when you're doing downtown theater tricks on Broadway budget, there's always that little mismatch there.

But apart from that, uh, you know, what I felt was a win or is worth bringing up here, like with Michael Pedrick Thornton moving around easily on the stage. So I guess it was made to be wheelchair accessible, which I don't know how hard or easy it is, but it's not common. So I appreciated that. But also something else that on the same vein that I was thinking, and maybe it needs to be a larger conversation within the industry is the use of strobe lights. It's just, and Juan Michael, I've spoken to you about this, it reminded me of you because you get these migraines and like, you know, and so I was like, is it really necessary? Or should we start doing these warnings or just a heads up that this play has 15 minutes of like extreme strobe lighting, and then people can decide for themselves if they want to sit through it or not. I think that's important.

[15:10] Juan Michael Porter II: Yes, to that point, I have concussion syndrome and can have a seizure in the middle of anything, and I had to close my eyes for extended periods and cover them with my hand to prevent the pulsing from triggering a seizure. And I know that's not everyone's struggle, but many of us do have sensory limitations that need to be taken into consideration because this isn't a movie that we're watching in the comfort of our home where we can pause or fast forward through something. And looking at the scenic designs, that's what I kept thinking that SAM GOLD really wants to be directing a film and is actually just putting that process in front of us without considering what that will do to us physically.

Um, and this says nothing of the acting, which I, I'm going to jump to that and say that I didn't think that the acting, none of the actors were in the same production for me. They all seemed to have their own individual idea of what was going on, and there was no one to root them and say, hey, this is the story that we are telling. Um, Ruth Negga, who I saw in Hamlet and who was really tremendous, and who I wish I'd seen in this as Macbeth, played the strange cupie doll version of Lady M, who then is afraid of her husband, which I have never seen before. And, uh, DANIEL CRAIG, um, who I don't think was very good in this role, I'll just say that, is violent towards her during one of his mad scenes when Banquo's ghost appears.

And to see Lady Macbeth cowering before him was very upsetting to me. And I'm wondering, I'm not gonna ask you to talk about things that you hated, but like, are there things that stood out to you that just made an impression in the acting?

[16:48] Ran Xia: Grantham Coleman plays McDuff. I think he's the best McDuff I've seen. I can't recall every single rendition of this character in all of the Macbeth productions I've ever seen, but I think his version will stay with me until I die. Yeah, um, I said before, I've said this before. I really like Amber Gray being Banquo. And of course, you know, these things we're so used to all this changing the gender of the character, this, that. So it doesn't stand out to us anymore. But I think she did offend, I really liked her rendition of Banquo. And, uh, of course, like, uh, Juan said earlier, Maria Dazia is really good. Uh, yeah, I like, like you said, Juan Michael, I think, except DANIEL CRAIG, who doesn't stop being DANIEL CRAIG in the play, which is actually the sad part because, um, you know, you want him to be King Macbeth and not DANIEL CRAIG.

Uh, but I think everyone else were good actors by themselves, but like you said, I don't think they were all in the same play in their heads, or it wasn't written for them to be in the same play. It was also a choice to have everybody keep their own accent. Which if you do not know where each actor is from, from a, you know, non-industry person point of view, it could also get even further confusing because, you know, why is Macbeth speaking with a British accent if you don't know DANIEL CRAIG is British, which, you know, most people know, I suppose, but it's not a given.

[18:38] Juan Michael Porter II: Yeah, that's true. I would like to think that they all live in the same world, or at least that they don't, that there's a reason why, and to have that made clear through the production. I'm wondering who is this show for? If you know we have someone visiting from out of town, like who would you say, oh, go see the show if you're this person?

[18:57] Bedatri D. Choudhury: I think people drawn in by celebrity casts, like you're in New York for a day, let's go watch DANIEL CRAIG on stage. I think that would be it.

[19:07] Juan Michael Porter II: Yeah, if you have 400 to burn, because that is the average ticket price. No, because if you take Ruth Negga and DANIEL CRAIG away from this equation, I wonder what is the selling point of this play. There were things that I think if you're a theater maker, there were things to be appreciated, um, with the design elements. Um, they’re aspirations. But I feel like theater people don't tend to have the funding to see that production necessarily. There's that dichotomy. DANIEL CRAIG was given the Broadway.com Audience Choice Award, and I'm basically going to say that's just a popularity contest, and that's not to diminish people who voted for him. That I wonder what it is that they saw, because I do have compassion that they saw something, and I'm not going to dismiss them.

But I keep thinking there must be something that I missed because he got this audience choice award, and therefore like he did something for people, and I don't understand it. And like, and I'm not going to do that thing where like they're wrong. Um, so I just wanted to say that and be like, there is this actor in this part that I disliked was acknowledged by a group of people, and maybe you will too for 400.

[20:28] Ran Xia: What are our final thoughts, final takeaways?

[20:31] Juan Michael Porter II: Um, I hate telling people watch this, don't watch this. So, I mean, you know, you heard us, and you may or may not like the text, but I'd still say make your decision. If you want to go watch this, go watch this. I'm not here to judge. I will say something I did like about this production. Seeing this after a prolonged pandemic, I felt that claustrophobic aspect of telling a story that you kind of seem to have no control over, and that kind of agitation that you felt around the environment and around like strange forces. I did get something out of that production, and perhaps you will too. I would say that if you want to see Macbeth, see something else, but if you'd like to see someone experimenting in a way that isn't always successful, that could be interesting, then give it a try. Ultimately, I would like for SAM GOLD to have all money taken away from him and to be placed into a black box theater where he's forced to focus on telling a story without tricks. That's my takeaway.

[21:38] Bedatri D. Choudhury: And have that money be given to independent theater makers like our lovely Ran here.

[21:44] Ran Xia: Yes, yes, here.

[21:47] Juan Michael Porter II: The irony is we don't need that much money really.

[21:50] Bedatri D. Choudhury: The irony is that you can tell this story with a plastic bag and still come out with a greater clarity than what you saw here.

[21:58] Juan Michael Porter II: I said that, not Ran. Thank you so much for this conversation today. I'm Juan Michael Porter II. If you'd like to follow me on Twitter, I'm at Juan Michael Porter II, and I write for Did They Like It, Theaterly, The Body.com, a lot of different places.

[22:15] Bedatri D. Choudhury: Yeah, uh, thank you so much for tuning in. My name is Bedatri. You can find me on Twitter at Bedatri, which is B-E-D-A-T-R-I. And, um, although I write on a couple of other things apart from theater, most of my theater writing appears on Did They Like It.

[22:33] Ran Xia: Hi, my name is Ran Xia, and thank you for sharing this moment with us. Uh, I write for Did They Like It and Theatre is Easy, but I'm mostly a freelance playwright and theater director. I am on social media at Rhino Riddler. That's Rhino the Animal and Riddler.

[22:52] Juan Michael Porter II: Yay. Thank you so much, everyone. This is the Critics' Table.

[22:58] Bedatri D. Choudhury: Thanks for joining us on this episode of the Critics Table Podcast. We would like to thank Jose Solis and the BIPOC Critics Lab team who has generously partnered with us on this project.

[23:08] Ran Xia: You can find out more about the BIPOC Critics Lab at BIPOCCriticsLab.com.

[23:14] Bedatri D. Choudhury: Also be sure to subscribe to this podcast so that you never miss a review and learn more about our critics at bpn.fm/criticstable.

[23:23] Juan Michael Porter II: The views or opinions expressed by the critics in this episode are solely their own and do not necessarily represent views or opinions of the Broadway Podcast Network.

[23:32] Bedatri D. Choudhury: See you next time.