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[0:06] John Schwab: Hi, John Schwab here from Curtain Call, and welcome to episode 80 of the Curtain Call Theatre Podcast, the podcast that brings you backstage as close as you possibly can be, often while the shows are happening, to meet the people that make that theater happen.

[0:19] John Schwab: It's great to have you all here. And if it's your first time, you are welcome here. You're in a safe place. You can find all episodes of the Curtain Call Theater Podcast on Apple Podcast, Stitcher, and other fine streaming services. So go back and fill those boots. And if you have a spare 30 seconds, rate and review this podcast to help us be more discoverable to listeners who haven't heard about us yet.

[0:44] John Schwab: As this episode drops on the 27th of March 2018, it is World Theater Day. And what a time it is to be part of this incredible industry. The theater is booming, guys. It's breaking records all the time for attendance numbers and box office receipts. In fact, I don't know if you know this, um, over here in the UK at least, uh, the theater brings in more in ticket sales than the Premier League does. For those listening in America, that's like the Major League Soccer League. And for those of you who don't know who soccer is, um, well, that's okay too.

[1:18] John Schwab: Uh, anyway, uh, the theater community has been my family since I left Durham University, way back when, with a BA honors degree in English literature, which I duly tucked away in the attic and jumped on a tour bus with Bill Kenwright's production of Elvis the Musical, my first job here. And I haven't looked back in more than 20 years. So, you know, I didn't go to drama school uh straight to work. Uh, and sometimes I do regret that fact, but over the last three years, I've had the absolute privilege, alongside my partner in crime at Curtain Call, Matt Humphrey, to go backstage and chat with hundreds of theater professionals about their processes and experiences working across the UK's theater.

[2:01] John Schwab: Uh, uh and the UK is theatre as I should say. And um and I you know what it's it's that's kind of been my drama school. Uh and it's it's been an incredible three years. And this week I thought we could celebrate World Theatre Day by bringing you some of our favorite chats. Starting way back in 2015 when we visited the company of Three Days in the Country. Now I'd worked with Mark Gatiss prior to our visit on uh television projects and things, but um this was my first time getting to talk to him about the theater. Have a listen I ask everybody just pretty much the same questions.

[2:43] John Schwab: Why theater? Why that's uh yeah why should start doing that? The um is this your first time at the national?

[2:52] Mark Gatiss: Second, yeah, on this stage second.

[2:55] John Schwab: Excellent so um it's uh quite a unique well it's a completely unique set for the show. Um has it challenged you in any kind of specific way or um it's been very it's kind of strangely liberating actually not to have entrances.

[3:12] Mark Gatiss: I know when we first started it when I come back on saying when I've been see the coachman it's sort of something operatic about like I enter the servants quarter and you actually have to do it because there's no door opens to announce or anything.

[3:27] Mark Gatiss: And that's why the piano does those little keys before people come on. But I think it's beautiful, and actually pretentious to say it, but the I think it sort of mirrors the the steps of Russia, you know the the spareness of the play and the spareness of all that.

[3:44] Mark Gatiss: And by the time it gets to the end, we've actually crept a little closer. And the transparency and everything. I love it.

[3:53] John Schwab: Was it something that was born out of the um rehearsal process?

[3:58] Mark Gatiss: No, very much it was it was it was part it was there in the model, you know, from the beginning.

[4:03] John Schwab: Yeah.

[4:03] Mark Gatiss: Yeah.

[4:03] John Schwab: So um we had a little uh discussion about um uh the chairs uh because I I did Coriolanus at the uh at the Donmar last year and we had a similar thing.

[4:15] Mark Gatiss: And it's very difficult sometimes to sit and watch a play over and over, particularly if you've got a bad throat and like that. And Patrick said, I'm quite keen for everyone to watch quite a lot of the play.

[4:25] Mark Gatiss: And I said, What so we never get off? And he went on for about another ten minutes, and then I said, So we never get off. But actually we it's sort of rationed out, and uh I think it works really well for the last the last part when everybody's concentrating.

[4:40] Mark Gatiss: We just sort of it's also been amazingly bonding as a company because we we're all on right at the beginning.

[4:45] Mark Gatiss: Yeah, which is very unusual, and we all have a little cuddle before we start, which began in obviously the teeth of terror, but now we've we've kept it up. It's just rather nice ritual.

[4:54] Mark Gatiss: But it's it's nice to it's nice everyone starts together.

[4:57] John Schwab: That's sweet. And you you guys have managed to find you know, where one might not expect to find comedy in a Russian, you know, drama.

[5:08] Mark Gatiss: Well the thing is it's built as a comedy. It's a comedy in five acts, always was.

[5:12] Mark Gatiss: Yeah. I mean, the original Turgenev was never happy with, it's it's been done many different ways. It's usually four hours long.

[5:19] Mark Gatiss: Obviously, now it's down to three days, which is a good idea. But I think I mean Patrick, I I think it's the bones of the play, but essentially it's a new play.

[5:27] Mark Gatiss: And I think what Patrick's done is find again that there's hardly a there's no words wasted. It's it's it's very spare, very modern, and you know I I get cross about the the sort of false differentiation between comedy and tragedy.

[5:43] Mark Gatiss: We all know that life isn't as a strange sort of goat fuck of the of the pair, always is and I think that's what's lovely about this.

[5:52] Mark Gatiss: But it absolutely turns on a sixpence. Suddenly it's very sad, very gut-wrenching, and then it then it's funny.

[5:59] Mark Gatiss: So I think and if that's a Russian quality, then that's what he's captured, definitely.

[6:03] John Schwab: Yeah.

[6:03] Mark Gatiss: Because the f I mean your um proposal see you know, the when your back goes and kind of the the the physical comedy um is uh great.

[6:12] Mark Gatiss: The the way you guys also found those little tiny moments that it's a massive theater, it does feel very close, even though the stage you feel we were.

[6:21] Mark Gatiss: Someone on stage door asked me the day what why why are you doing all this intimate stuff with one standing in one corner and one on the other?

[6:27] Mark Gatiss: I said, because it's a huge day, that's why.

[6:29] John Schwab: No, but with the back, I um you know, I just saw basically saw an opportunity, and it's all I I change it all the time.

[6:37] Mark Gatiss: Wow. Um to to keep it fresh and to surprise myself. I surprised Deborah, surprise everybody who's watching, really.

[6:44] Mark Gatiss: But I've I've loved it, actually, absolutely but I also love the way that you know Spigelski um ex you know really exposes his heart.

[6:55] Mark Gatiss: Takes a big risk, really. But clearly underneath he's a very angry man, a very he's a we started in poverty, and it's all quite through gritted teeth, his sort of bedside manner, you know.

[7:06] Mark Gatiss: So a pain sometimes about in every respect. It's such a funny performance.

[7:10] John Schwab: I'm gonna let you go, Mark. Thank you so much for talking to me, and I appreciate it.

[7:14] John Schwab: Mark gave us backstage at the National Theatre during Three Days in the Country. Now, fast forward to 2017, and another person who is a star of both stage and screen.

[7:24] John Schwab: Uh she was a guest on our podcast when she appeared in Mosquitoes again at the National, but this time on a smaller stage there, the Dorfman.

[7:31] John Schwab: She spoke about many things in her standalone podcast, which you can catch on the feed wherever you download our podcast. But the one thing that intrigued me uh was her observation about the difference between screen and stage acting.

[7:44] Olivia Williams: It is something that I mentioned to you upstairs. Like you are really capable. And you're s like your characters are strong and capable of holding themselves, and you're quite good either holding yourself in a conversation, be it physically or verbally, just they're just as powerful.

[8:00] John Schwab: Um I mean, and were you seen as that kind of person? You know, in drama.

[8:12] Olivia Williams: So I would just had to wait. I mean, I was never Juliet. I got one I was in a play at the RSC called Valenstein, and I was the daughter who sort of of a of a great army general uh who fell in love with a soldier played by Toby Stevens a million years ago.

[8:32] Olivia Williams: Um but you know, uh if I was Cordelia, there's no septuagenarians gonna be able to carry me on stage. You know, there aren't many, you know, what would it be? All dragging through my Greek, but you know, no 20 year olds or 30 year olds, a few of them are gonna struggle.

[8:51] Olivia Williams: Um so I it was wonderful that this all came to me in my late twenties and it really took off in my 30s and 40s because I'm playing a grown-up and it doesn't matter if I'm taller than the leading man.

[9:04] John Schwab: Well yeah, exactly.

[9:05] Olivia Williams: But I I love that because uh listen, we're we're here at the National Theatre, you know, there are three theatres that shows today, and and everyone's journey is completely different.

[9:12] Olivia Williams: That's what I love about it. Yeah, you know, and and it doesn't matter when you there's no such thing as cracking it.

[9:19] Olivia Williams: There is no overnight success. There is no kind of, you know, because you are a jobbing actor.

[9:23] Olivia Williams: I mean, and listen, I the soul destroying commercial auditions that you go up to to hopefully pay the bills for a couple years is just characters character building as kind of being in the fridge or getting your first gig here or whatever.

[9:37] Olivia Williams: It's all part of it, you know.

[9:39] Olivia Williams: It's all yeah, and I what I I think the sort of sentence that I forgot to finish because I got distracted listing the amount of A-listers I've acted for which is very distracting, um, is that I learned to love working on camera.

[9:57] Olivia Williams: I set out to be in these Shakespeare plays, and which I've never done, but on the way I learned the absolute pleasure of film acting and the extraordinary places it can take you from Jordan to you know um the Gaza Strip from you know South America, North America, Africa, uh, you know, to Wazazat.

[10:22] Olivia Williams: And um no idea where that is.

[10:24] John Schwab: Exactly.

[10:24] Olivia Williams: It's not far from Timbuktu.

[10:27] John Schwab: And I'm I'm not joking.

[10:29] Olivia Williams: Brilliant. Um so I and you know, I try not to take jobs on the basis of where they are, but that you know starts to be one of the factors, you know.

[10:38] Olivia Williams: Hang on, last days on Mars, shooting in Jordan, you can't go there anymore. You know, it's it's sort of it's oh it's a l listen, the only power we have as an actress is the word no.

[10:47] John Schwab: Yeah.

[10:48] Olivia Williams: So if something comes along, you can either go, you entertain that, well, I've never been to Prague, or I've never been to, you know, where wherever.

[10:56] Olivia Williams: And yeah, it's great. It's a bit of the yeah, of course it's and then equally fabulous was you know, at a moment that could have been a lull and was a lull in filming terms.

[11:10] Olivia Williams: You know, Cheek by Jowl came to me, offered me one of the dream roles, so it wasn't Shakespeare, but it was the bloke next door, um, and in the changeling um and to play that lead, and we were on tour and going round small towns in France um and sampling the wines and food that they had in each place, and um that brought me back to the intensity of a company feeling, and and I realized that I really, really, really missed that um sense, which however much you learn to love the lens and the camaraderie around the camera, it's never as intense as the sort of summer camp um intensity that you get in a company.

[12:00] Olivia Williams: Of course. So um I I I love it.

[12:03] Matt Cardle: And now on to someone who is making their theatre debut in a big West End musical, having become a household name on the X Factor. I was blown away by the experience of being part of a theatre company when I joined the cast of Memphis. Something that I had not come across before. And the whole theatre, do you know, the whole company is just so lovely. You know, right from Harry, as soon as you come in stage door meaning fucking hell? What a legend. I know what I know that's the that you know, the feel he gives you and the vibe that he gives off is just it just goes throughout the whole building, right up to the wigs up the top. Everyone's just so what's your um what's it the kind of receptions?

Obviously, like the obvious question is it's so different. This is something that's like you say is so different, just picking up on that. Like, you know, would did you feel like there was a kind of weight of expectation or would I come on there and blow it away? Well, totally, well I mean be able to do it would be the line I would I'd go with not blow anything away, would like manage to get through the show without fucking falling to bits, I think was was the line I was taking, you know. And what like I say when I came to see it, I just you know, I wouldn't wish bad and never wish bad on anyone, but I just kind of was like, Oh, couldn't the guy that I'm replacing just be a little bit shit? He's just was a little bit fucking amazing, and I was like, Oh god damn it, you know, so I had an even bigger shoes to fill.

Um and look, I'm just doing the the level best I can every night, you know. And I have a short run, and this is only four months, which is kind of perfect for my first show. Um again, coming into a company that's so lovely and so tight, it's like it's strange when Killian left coming in and being like, hey guys, like and he was so fucking amazing. So it was it was a huge challenge and so daunting. Well, you know, we didn't get to see him, we got to see you, and it was a great, great show, man. Like it's it's the thing is it's you can feel it, the audience absolutely love like loved it. And they're up on their feet. So it's so you know, how and how different, just last last thing, how different is this from any experience?

Like that just being being that performer into coming in and being part of like a company said it's a great company. Well you know, but being a solo artist is it can be quite a lonely kind of existence, you know. You see you banned when you're on tour when you're in the studio, it's me and one other guy, or me and two other guys if I'm writing in the group, you know. Um apart from that, it's me and my manager or anyone from the label. It's like you know, it's quite solitary. Um, and then all of a sudden I'm part of a huge team of up to what, 30 people here? It's fucking wicked. Yeah, you know, and I can walk I come in every day to I don't call it work because I'm having fun, it's not fucking work for anyone here apart from you know, one or two people.

It gets a bit worky when it gets to nine months into the same thing, I I can imagine. But for any of the people on stage, you can't call it work. Um it's just like, yeah, you come into the building and it's just like hey, you know, fuck it, it's too many names to go through. It's like it's fucking brilliant. Yeah, I love it. Brilliant. Thank you so much for your time and have a great show.

[15:10] Olivia Williams: Matt Cardle there, from recording sensation to Matinee Idol. One of our favorite theater experiences of our entire curtain call existence is of the play, People, Places, and Things. We had the uh what can only be described as the immense pleasure of covering the show when it transferred from the South Bank to the Wyndham's Theatre. And then again at St. Anne's Warehouse in Brooklyn, New York last December. Denise Gough won just about every award going for her portrayal of an addict struggling to get herself better. And you know, she was so deserving of every accolade that was thrust at her. We had a chance to talk to her about returning to her character of Emma, not only in a new theater, but a new country. Have a listen.

[15:54] Denise Gough: It's just you're this is the the third run. Yes. Magic. Because we came to see the show last night was unbelievable. Thank you. It was magic. I think um well I guess my first question is, how have you found it? Like coming to a new, not just geo geographical place, but just a new audience. The audience react different for this the Dorfman's gonna be a different audience from the Wyndham's gonna be a different audience. Yeah. So yeah, how how have you found that? Oh man, I mean, I love this place so much. And I and I when I came back to her um oh it was like she was like, Oh great, I'm back. She was so delighted the Mormon housewife was gone. Um truly, so she just came right back to me straight away, and then coming here initially, like transition is always a bit tricky.

Um, I'm in a new city, I was on my own, all of that stuff, so I was a bit like freaked out. And then once I really landed, it's been glorious. I mean, there is nothing I can ever say about this whole experience from three years ago to now, except that it has been a spiritual experience of my life. Like it is beyond anything I could have ever imagined, hope for the reaction here has been beautiful, much the same as in the West End, but kind of more effusive in it's like people are prepared to go deeper. Like I've all these letters everywhere from people, and they share some pretty intense stuff. You know, you know. A lot of people die of this. So here I'm really aware of that. Yeah, this this journey, like um I mean, I think this play, like we maybe taught I've touched on this before, but this play needs to be seen.

Because this is I think last night, whatever it was. Last night was a good idea. It was a great show, but you realize that this is true. This is one of the truest pieces of theater I think I've ever seen. I mean, all right. I want my me read like anything I've ever read. Like it's been totally amazing to get to do a play where you don't have to lie or like fill in stuff. I mean, look, I I'm getting to do some pretty great stuff. Like Angels isn't fucking amazing. Yeah. But there's a kind of a different type of profundity to the Angels experience than there is to this. This just feels so completely immediate and also she fe I feel like I I love being in control of it, you know. It's a really great experience.

Like properly, yeah, like a lion tamer. Do you um do you miss um Emma or Sarah or something? Yeah, but you see the things yeah, but when she goes, I know she's never gone long, like she's not gonna be gone forever. Like I've I don't think this is the end for this play. I really don't.

[18:54] Olivia Williams: The incomparable Denise Gough from People, Places and Things there. And uh, as this podcast drops on the twenty seventh of March, she's opening another transfer from the National Angels in America. And uh the reviews aren't out yet, but the word is if you haven't got your tickets yet, you better. That's all I'm gonna say. I wanted to end this podcast with a special guest speaking about something very close to our hearts here at Curtain Call. We got to sit down and talk to the ridiculously talented Lesley Manville last week when we were backstage on our visit to a long day's journey into night. And you know, what better way to wrap up this week than with a master of their craft describing why she keeps coming back to the theater when she deservedly picks up accolades for her film and television work. Well, and she's just been nominated for an Oscar this year for the Phantom Thread. Here's Lesley Manville.

[19:50] Lesley Manville: What is it about theatre that keeps drawing you back? Because we we get the benefit as theatre lovers and practitioners, we get to come and see you do your thing and just marvel at it. So what is it that brings you back to theater? Well, I mean, it's the great plays and the great parts, but I like it because there's no I love doing theatre and films, but it's so it you know it is ultimately quite unsatisfying for an actor because it's stop start, stop, stop, stop, start, stop, start, stop for a few days, come back, come from and stop, stop. And then the editor, the director and the editor make something completely uh different of it in the editing room. I mean, that's all lovely and great. But this is our evening, you know, it's it's our responsibility.

Nobody can stop me and say, Cut. It the the arc of the evening is ours, and there's no hiding place. I've seen very bad acting look passable on film, and you can't do that on stage because you you you are exposed, and every every inch of you has got to be doing it properly because the audience can look wherever they want. You might not be talking, but they can still be looking at you, and there's no hiding place. But so it's that it's that hot sense of performance, you know, that however satisfying a film is, and I've done some amazing, amazingly satisfying films with great, great directors. It is by nature spasmodic, and you know, it's I mean it's a different challenge, and I like that challenge too.

You know, you could spend all morning getting 30 seconds of uh script right or a minute. Um, and you have to keep repeating it in that moment. And you know, I l I like that as well, and I like you know, this series I'm shooting now, Harlots. It's it's great, it's big and it's flamboyant, and it's 1763, and it's about prostitutes, and it's but there's no time to rehearse. So you get there in the morning and you know you've got to be so on it, and your antennae have got to be on the go, and that you've got to come up with something and be inventive and be good and creative, and I like that as well. But nothing is as the same as an evening that is, you know, a beginning, middle, and end where nobody stops me, and I can do my thing.

[22:29] Olivia Williams: Lesley Manville talking backstage at the Wyndhams Theatre about why she keeps returning to the stage. Now, before we wrap up here, if you are a theater professional, you need to head on over to curtaincallonline.com and sign up for a free profile page. All you have to do is create an account with an email address, make up a pretty cool password, and away you go. You can follow us on all the socials, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook at Curtain Call. We'd love to hear from you if you have any suggestions or feedback for the podcast. Just get in touch with us via any of the social media platforms I just mentioned, or write to me at John at CurtainCallOnline.com. And that's John with an H. No Jonathan or Johnny here.

I have to end with a massive thank you to Mark Gatiss, Olivia Williams, Matt Cardle, Denise Gough, Lesley Manville, and to everyone who makes these shows and every other production happen, both on stage, backstage, in the offices, the cast recording people, everything everyone, you're all brilliant. We celebrate you and everything you do to make the theater community and what it achieves such an incredible success. Thank you for listening to this week's episode of the Curtain Call Theater Podcast. Happy World Theater Day, and I will catch you all next week. Bye.