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[0:21] John Schwab: Hi, John Schwab here from Curtain Call, and welcome to episode 164 of the Curtain Call Podcast.

[0:27] John Schwab: For those of you who are theater entertainment and live events professionals, head on over to CurtainCallonline.com and check out our platform. Sign up, build out your profile, and start getting found for work. But more on that later.

[0:39] John Schwab: For now, let's focus on this week's guests. Our two guests this week haven't been on the podcast before, but I have known one of them for nearly 20 years, and the other I have known about through colleagues, but I've yet to work with them.

[0:52] John Schwab: Director Ben Mole has put together an incredible ensemble cast for his latest project, a feature film surrounding the events that led to the arrest and incarceration of the legendary Kray twins, the London gangland bosses that were hard as nails with the quintessential East London accent that is embodied pretty much every actor who has taken on the role of a Kray brother.

[1:14] John Schwab: So, I mean, imagine my shock at hearing about my good friend, the American actor Ronan Summers, who is going to be the next to follow in some pretty big footsteps in taking on the role of both, yes, both of the Kray twins in the new film Code of Silence. I just have to say that Ronan brilliantly nails his performance, and I totally forgot that he was my American friend.

[1:42] John Schwab: Ben Mole extracts a brutal and unforgiving performance from Ronan and deserves every bit of praise and kudos that comes his way. The three of us sat together in separate rooms, as is per usual these days, to discuss filmmaking during the pandemic, searching for the Kray twins, and what it was like both acting and directing the same person in multiple roles in the same scene. Pretty tricky, but they did it. Have a listen.

[2:17] John Schwab: I just have to start by saying I was sent a screener last week of a film called Code of Silence, and I was properly blown away. Um, because of two things. I know the Kray story. It's just one of those that is in the kind of British gangster canon, and everyone knows about it. They're the famous twins. They were thugs back in the 60s. Um, and kind of London's glamorous thuggery heyday, but also blown away because Ronan, I've never seen you do anything like this.

[2:57] John Schwab: Uh, playing both twins, but Ronan, you and I come from the same neck of the woods in the fact that we're both from the states. Completely different areas. But yeah, man alive, I was blown away by that performance. And um, I'd like just to start off by I'd like to know how it all started.

[3:17] Ronan Summers: Yeah, well, um, if I might go first. I mean, sure. Uh, it's I could I'm coming to the project late, so maybe Ben is the man to talk to first. But for me, the Krays was the exact reason I wanted to do these roles. I keep wanting to say this role, but it's two, is because it's exactly the opposite of everything that I had ever done before.

[3:41] Ronan Summers: And I think John, you and I, like you said, we go way back. We've known each other from being the American guy in stuff, which was a great way to start a career and a great way to get some parts in some movies and some TV shows early doors, and it was a good USP as an actor trying to start out in these neck of the woods in the UK, um, because it was something that not every, you know, you were able to come to the table with a genuine American accent every time.

[4:11] Ronan Summers: So guys like you and I, certainly, you know, early doors, and you know, still now, um, you know, we make our bread and butter often playing those American guys, and the American guys that are cast over here tend to be CIA guys, soldiers, yeah, you know, uh, guards, etc., etc., etc., etc. And uh, you know, I don't want to do down any of that stuff, but I had done a lot of it earlier, my early in my career and had found myself, I felt typecast in that way.

[4:42] Ronan Summers: So over the last couple of years, I had been um making an effort to shy away from that stuff, and actually, to much to my agents' chagrin often, things would come over the table, and they would say, "Hey Ronan, you're perfect for this," and I'd be like, "I agree, but also I don't really want to do it, and I don't want to audition for it because I don't really want to get it, because then it puts me in a position where financially I feel like I'm throwing away money by saying no to it."

[5:07] Ronan Summers: So I went through a couple of years of having done, I felt the hard yards of playing those guys, uh, then shying away from them, and it meant taking some sacrifices some places, but gradually doing the same thing again by taking some parts in Vikings, you know, and really trying to experiment with accents in ways that I'd been allowed to do in games, which is another place where you and I overlap a lot.

[5:28] Ronan Summers: Yeah, is that we work in games. And I've been given that ability to express myself and show that I could do other characters and accents in games, and I was trying to cross that over. So that required a couple of years of hard craft and doing those littler parts again, those smaller parts again. Like on Doctor Who, instead of playing a CIA guy, I played an MI6 guy, which is a very subtle difference.

[5:49] Ronan Summers: Um, you know, when you're doing a Doctor Who episode, but it meant that I was able to throw an accent out there and doing an episode of Vikings where I was able to do something, you know, scandy and just gradually trying to pick my way into things. And then one of those parts had been a small part in a film called Arthur and Merlin, which was made a couple of years ago and allowed me to work with an old friend of mine, Lucinda, and who produced Code of Silence.

[6:15] Ronan Summers: Um, and I was able to prove to that team that I was able to do accents, particularly of this country. And then so then that brought us to Code of Silence, and they were looking for someone to play the Krays. Maybe this is a good time to pass over to Ben because I don't know how they actually found the Kray twins. I mean, I don't know. I know I ended up getting the part, yeah, but I don't know, I don't know how many people said no first.

[6:38] Ronan Summers: So you always gotta be careful when you're talking about these things. Um, what so maybe now's a good opportunity to pass over to Ben.

[6:43] Ben Mole: Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna jump right in there and say talking about your accent. So I get this email from Lucinda, our producer, and she says, "I found this guy, he's great. His name's Ronan. I've worked with him before, but forget about whether I've worked with him before or not. This guy is great. Can I send you a tape of him? He is a Kray."

[7:01] Ben Mole: And so she sends me this tape of this Brit from the 60s from the East End doing this part, right? Of reading out this sort of gangster stuff. And I was like, wait a second. We've been looking, we'd looked at a lot of people. We looked at a lot of people. I mean, triple figures, right?

[7:20] Ben Mole: Yeah. So we're finally, I'm like, finally, we've got somebody who's got a bit of humanity about these guys, and we can get into why that was important later. But so there's this British guy who sends me this thing, and I was like, okay, great, let's have a meeting with him. And I swear, and then a couple of days later, an American rings me up and starts talking about the Krays.

[7:28] Ben Mole: And I was like, who is this guy? He seems to know about this re this this other tape, the thing, and it felt like hours, it was probably only minutes, but it was only then I realized it was the same person, right? And it was it was that, and I know that I love Ronan, and I know this is just gonna sound like being good to a friend, but it was that amazing.

[7:59] Ben Mole: I really didn't know they were the same people. And when uh audio um guy Allen was mixing the film many months later, he heard an outtake where Ronan stopped in the middle and said, "Kai, sorry, guy, something fell over or whatever." And Ronan said in his natural accent, "Can I do that again?" And he literally rang me instantly, said, "I can't carry on working. I've just had my mind blown because this guy isn't the person we I thought he was."

[8:27] Ben Mole: And so I think I mean there are a lot of things that Ronan did well in that film, and this this, but that was the building block upon which the rest of it came, was getting that authentic. And if that hadn't been authentic, uh it wouldn't have worked at all.

[8:42] Ben Mole: Absolutely. And of course, we're gonna have to talk, sorry to say this, but we're gonna have to talk about the fact they were so different as well, because there's not just one accent there, there. There are two very, very distinct, not just accents, but character personalities, characters. Ronnie and Reggie um are played completely different by you, Ronan.

[8:58] Ben Mole: And I'd love to know your approach because that we have a lot of actors listening to this and also directors, so it'd be great to see how you guys work together to find those two distinct, and then they are absolutely distinct characters. It's a fantastic performance for both characters, but just take me through you guys finding them both.

[9:19] Ben Mole: Before you go into that Ronan, I just want to say that you know, I whatever anybody thinks about this film, it is a masterclass from Ronan's part in those two performances. They are distinct, so much so that in the edit, it was really interesting. The editor and I, and the editors never met you, Ronan, in person.

[9:38] Ben Mole: We really would would start to talk after the first couple of days, and and certainly all through it, like you were two different people. And the way we it was never that was Ronan doing that, that was Ronan. It was always like that guy and this guy in our heads. They weren't the same people.

[9:53] Ben Mole: So it was sometimes really surprising when we saw a shot that you weren't in like a BFX shot or some kind of shot where it was obviously you doubled up. It really took us by surprise. It was that I mean, and that's that was a real it it was such a compliment to you that that happened during the editing process, but the editor really thought of you as two characters, not one person playing two characters, and it was that was great.

[10:18] Ronan Summers: Why she left you?

[10:21] Ben Mole: Why she gave up so easily.

[10:23] Ronan Summers: Maybe it's because she couldn't stand the fucking sight of him.

[10:37] Ben Mole: Right now, pick one of us.

[10:45] Ronan Summers: We'll do it right here.

[10:47] Ben Mole: When it walks out.

[10:52] Ronan Summers: Oh, I mean, thank you so much. I that's that's a huge, huge compliment and and and really a testament not just to what I did, I think, but to what we did. And not, and you know, by we, I don't just mean Ben and I, I also mean Brody Mayhew and Robin Manton, who were the heads of department for costume and and makeup as well.

[11:12] Ronan Summers: You know, they were part of that transformation. But it was certainly a daunting task to play those particular two guys. I mean, it's a daunting task to play twin brothers and to make those distinctions um in general, but when you're taking on the Krays, I mean you do kind of feel like you're taking on the Krays, you know what I mean?

[11:31] Ronan Summers: You feel like, you know, there's a there's a certain weight that comes to playing those characters and you know, people who were in the public eye so much, but also so um notorious, so infamous as a person who isn't from this country to play such national figures as well is is quite a daunting task.

[11:57] Ronan Summers: And also, you know, I'm not unaware of this guy called Tom Hardy, which you may have heard of. Um, you know, and he has people keep bringing him up when I do these things this guy.

[12:09] Ben Mole: It's a real pain in the ass how much people talk about Tom Hardy. Um, but all jokes aside, look, Tom Hardy is a phenomenal actor and he, you know, an A-list celebrity, and obviously played these same characters a couple of years ago. It's not even like he did it a decade ago. So my number one job for these guys, I thought was to get totally away from him and from that. I saw the film originally when it came out, but I kind of was allergic to Tom Hardy chat from the second that the job came. And, you know, it's a very different animal. We were making, without, you know, we thought I wanted to do ourselves down. We were making a, I'm guessing we were making a film for about the coffee budget of that movie.

So it's a different totally different animal. And our movie is not a Kray movie. Our movie is a movie that features the Krays very heavily. But, um, and I think that's an important distinction to make and one to, you know, because Stephen Moyer, who plays Nipper Reed, who is really the lead character of this film, gives a phenomenal performance himself. So I don't want to, you know, make this seem as if, you know, you need to come and see this because of this great Kray performance. But that being said, there was the great weight of expectation. But also the difference is important because between the Tom Hardy movie and our film, the time and budget was so different that the approach to the character had to be different.

I didn't have six months to go live in traipse around the East, and we were in the middle of COVID anyway, so that wasn't really possible. But we had something like three, I had by the time I came onto production, something like three or four weeks at the outside to do as much research as I could and to try to figure out who these guys were. So obviously, your first thing is to read and read, read, read, read, read. Get all the books and start reading. I found that that was incredibly helpful for a little while, and I was able to ingest as much information as I could, but because there was this weight of production bearing down on me, I also felt like it was very important to get involved in the script in a big way concurrently to reading books.

So if I'd had six months to do it, it would have been all research, research, research. And then once I'd ingested all of this research and lived with it and found the ways in which I could use it, then I would be script, script, script, script, script. It'd be a bit like the way they've been researching the COVID vaccine because they had to do it quicker. They, you know, everything had to be kind of happening concurrently. So that meant a lot of sleepless nights and a lot of page turning and a lot of deciding things that weren't interesting as well from the biographies and things like that. The autobiographies in particular, because I found that when I started reading the stuff that the Krays had written themselves, sometimes it was a bit counterproductive to find the truth of who they were, because actually they were self-aggrandizing dudes, you know, they were gangsters, they weren't people who were trying, they weren't for the most part.

When you read their autobiographies, you have to read it from the perspective of someone who is trying to leave their own legacy and create their own myth, and you know, and they painted themselves and thought of themselves very much as like these Robin Hood characters, and you know, things are a lot less cut and dry than that.

[15:28] Ronan Summers: I want to as well jump in there. It's, it's I don't think it's the actor's job or the filmmaker's job to psychoanalyze a real person and reflect that. I think it's the actor's job to find a character. I think that's right. That's grounded in reality sometimes in true stories, and it's grounded in research. So some of that research you did, but I think if you'd have had ten, six months, eight months, a year, there was no COVID, we could have gone and met people, we could have sat in East End pubs. Mind you, there aren't that many of them left. You have to really dig around to find the same kind of pubs. But even if we had, I just wonder, I'm gonna ask you, Ronan, if you think how much use more of that would have been, and whether it was more about trying to build a character from the seeds that you had about them, and less about trying to kind of facsimile them.

[16:14] Ronan Summers: Yeah, I mean, I think that the thing it was interesting. A lot of the stuff that people would have thought was useful was very was not useful. Um, but then all of a sudden we'd find these nuggets that were really useful somehow to give an idea of the essence of a person, even if we didn't use them specifically. Like I'm thinking of this one thing I read, I believe it when it was Reggie talking about Ronnie, that I had come across somewhere in one of these books. That this thing about how Reggie knew that Ronnie was about to go, he was about to flip when he would see his right leg twitching. And it was all that he knew as a brother, it was all he knew. It was the only tell that he knew to go like Ronnie's about to boil.

That was an interesting physical tell for me that we didn't end up using in the film. We talked about using in the film when we had some of our chats with the three of us, with Ben, Steven and I. We didn't actually end up shooting a shaky leg. But what it was able to do, it was able to convey to me, and I think to us, the difference in vibrations of the two brothers, you know, that Reggie was able to be this, he was able to keep a more level head, in my opinion, because he was, and this is my armchair psychologist, but in my opinion, because he was just a straight psychopath as opposed to a paranoid schizophrenic. So he was able to be much more cold and analytical of his much more mercurial brother, and I just felt so for me, you know, for every big story about a gangland slashing or this, that and the other or some story about how they saved a boxing gym, like that stuff wasn't really interesting to me and I didn't have time for it.

But every once in a while you'd find these nuggets of little physical things or keys into their psychology which would help. But because of the time constraints and Ben's probably right, maybe even without those time constraints at a certain point that stuff becomes unnecessary and like all great drama and film and stuff you come to the script.

[18:23] Ben Mole: Just want to jump on that as well, Ronan. You were playing the baddie, right? Usually in a Krays movie you're playing the lead, you're playing the Krays, or the heroes in the screenwriting sense of the piece. You're the shark, right? You're the Hannibal Lecter, you're the bad guy, you're psycho, right? And so it was really, I think what you did as well talking about the differences between them that you just mentioned to evoke those archetypes of the bad guy, the Hannibal Lecter, Norman Bates, psycho, cold, calm, collected, rational, straightforward one, and the more, let's call it the alien, the werewolf, the animalistic, the Jekyll and Hyde character in the other one who was visceral and animal and spitty, and you spat a lot in the performances of that and held your shoulders in a certain way and really played across those two.

I found while we were shooting it and while we were talking about it, and then in the edit when we were putting it together, that that was really came distinct. That there was those two versions of what a bad guy can be in a movie. And I thought that was really great about the way you pulled that off and kept it coherent.

[19:34] Ronan Summers: Well, thank you. And that was incredibly fun to do. I mean, because that's right. Whenever an actor gets given the choice of okay, you're playing a bad guy, right? You know, you have a couple of ways to go with it. But it was cool to be able to do both, you know. By the way, without it being cliché or comic book or any of those kind of things, it still rammed with authenticity.

[19:56] Ben Mole: Yeah. Well, and that was the hard thing to do, right? Because you don't, with all these things, you're trying to make a distinction, but you don't want to be cartoonish, right? You're still in a movie.

[20:05] Ronan Summers: Yeah. And that's hard to do when you're playing bombastic characters. All of these guys, there's a line reading for both of these guys at any given moment that can be typical, you know, can be straight gangster without all respect to the Mitchell brothers, Mitchell brother-y shouting, red face shouting for the sake of it. You know what I mean? And actually, I think I worried Ben a little bit when we did the first reading because I did some of that stuff. I was a lot bigger in the reading. We did a Zoom reading early because again, because of COVID, we didn't get in the room together, but we did a cast reading not long before we started, and Ben called me before. He was like, uh look, Reggie's great.

Um, but we just, I just want to watch it with Ronnie that we're, you know, we're going to not always going to play up. And basically what my plan had been, that that was never, I totally appreciated Ben's call and it had always, and I had kind of expected it, but what I had really wanted to do is to scare the shit out of some people in the read-through and let them know that I was coming. And the way that I felt like I was able to convey that over Zoom was by some really, you know, some stuff that was probably a lot bigger than I ended up doing in the film. But then once we were on board, it was really, really lovely to be able to find the differences in the brothers organically when I was putting it in my body.

And that manifested itself in different ways of warming up for the brothers, different, I had different soundtracks for the brothers that I would listen to on the way in to work, really internalize and think about specific things when I was getting into each brother, certain movements. I had this little funny little shadow boxy thing that I did when I was playing Reggie that kind of got me into one physicality, and I had a couple of little places in my body that I was always checking in with for each boy. When I lock my jaw a certain way for one of the boys, it makes me feel different. It's not so it doesn't become a slavish marionette thing where my jaw must always be doing this, but it becomes more of like a biomechanic, like Brechtian thing where like the act of setting my jaw in a different place not only changes the physical appearance of the brother, but also changes my internal energy somehow.

[22:24] Ben Mole: Can I ask you about that as well? So Brody, our wonderful Brody Mayhew, wonderful key makeup, who designed your makeup, and I thought you did a fantastic job, by the way. You also do look different. And when you, so for example, for those who haven't seen it, Ronan had to wear this huge, like golf ball-sized piece of plastic up his nose for because he'd broken his nose and and his hair was different, and as he said, he set his own jaw differently and lots of physical. Did you find when Brody applied those extras to you? I know actors sometimes talk about a single prop that somehow gets them into something. I don't know if you felt that, but did you find when you got the thing up your nose and your hair the right way and your jaw suddenly that helped, or was that just window dressing on top of what you were already doing?

[23:07] Ronan Summers: No, absolutely. That stuff always helps me. I mean, I think every actor is different, right? When people talk about the difference between how De Niro prepares and Pacino prepares, that's always the one like Robert De Niro likes to go hat shopping. You know what I mean? It's that. And I think, you know, I think for most actors it's a spectrum somewhere between the two, but all of that stuff helps, right? And Brody and I had a really funny Zoom chat, FaceTime chat in the lead up to the film where we were, you know, basically experimenting with different lengths of things to shove up my nose. And we had this thing we, you know, which ended up it was the nose nip, which we call, you know, it was nose nip time, which was basically the teeth, the end of the tubular section, the cylindrical section of the teeth of a baby bottle.

Yeah, with the ends chopped off and it shoved up one of my nostrils, which just gave this extra little bulbous thing, which is very subtle, and you might not notice it, but once you watch one it just gives some sort of a facial difference to the brother. Um, and yeah, all of that stuff helps. And that's, you know, and that's why, like I said, big shout out to Brody and Robin, because they, um, and we, because we were doing it on such a fast turnaround. I mean, I shot all of my stuff, we shot all of my stuff for the film in six days for both brothers.

[24:19] Ben Mole: Um that's crazy. So, you know, we were moving quick. Um I think I think that's right, isn't that right, Ben? Six days? Uh I it was certainly in that neighborhood. This was something I never got to talk to you about properly, really, either. Because we were shooting so quickly, I never got the chance to actually ask you how how the hell did you leave? What would the way we had to do it, we had to shoot Ronnie with with a camera and then switch to Reggie with the same camera, then back to Ronnie. So we had to kind of flip-flop, so we would like change the camera every two characters, if you know what it means. So it was leapfrogging so that we didn't have to minimize the changes. But Ronan, because of the schedule we were on, would have to run pretty much, like sprint from the set to costume, yeah.

Get into the brothers so that we were all still in the zone of the scene, of course, because we were everyone else in the scene still playing in that scene. Yeah, and then Ronan's gonna come back as a deal. How did that was I never got a chance because we were moving so quickly, never really had a chance to ask you how you managed to flip that.

[25:18] Ronan Summers: Um it was actually surprisingly uh easy, is the answer. I think because I think if we had been moving slower, that may have been more difficult, frankly. Interesting. I think because that there was an energy to the room and to the that hadn't dissipated yet, it probably made it maybe easier to do those leaps. Maybe. I found it odd how normal I found it when I've eventually watched the film. I was expecting to be blown away by suddenly seeing myself sat next to myself, and actually it just felt like I like of course that's how it is. That's how it was in the room. It's it was it's an odd out-of-body type experience. Like I felt like because I I was focusing so hard on not seeing Sean, my double.

That that was literally my mission every day was to really try to see my my see this twin brother of mine that I had I'd basically spent the last month trying to can trying to separate these two parts of my own personality because every actor at some point it has to come down to some part of of you, right? You have to connect the character to parts of you, as gross as the character is, they might be you know as as unappealing as they might be. You have to find some way to bring them into yourself and give them parts of you and so like it was this constant stretching of my uh like into this dual it sounds I'm sorry that sounds super cliche in actory and wanky but it's true and so I'm gonna say it so the I there was this odd sensation on set where I still felt like I was playing the other guy when I was when I was in one so I felt like when there were even though there were people reading in and uh and you know Sean was sat there and I sometimes I'd be looking into his eyes it was this constant and that exhausted if anything exhausted me on this it was playing that mind game with myself yeah just to try try to erase this other person from the room but having to still play off that other person in the room exactly so trying but and and also trying to remember how I played it yeah exactly 20 minutes ago or how I'm about to play it in tw in 20 minutes time.

[27:25] Ben Mole: Yeah you know so I that required some mental gymnastics where you know I because you're trying to stay alive in the moment you don't want to do totally pre-rehearsed you know facsimile of a performance that you thought was good three days ago you're trying to keep stay in the moment but you're just trying to stay in the moment with something that isn't in that moment and so and you're not and I'm not sure what takes Ben's gonna use as well so you know if I try different things I'm not sure whether I'm gonna be responding to the way I did it then or that so it was all just trying to keep it within a bounds of of being able to give Ben building blocks to work with, um, but also keep things alive for myself, and the thing the pace that we were moving at helped me to do that.

I think it was just um it because I was able to keep the ball bouncing, and Steven was great for this. So if we were able to maintain like a frequency of vibration for a particular scene, and I was able to get in and out quickly and maintain that vibration, it it made things, I think, come together well in the edit.

[28:30] Ronan Summers: Yeah. I also I also think as as well, and if anyone else is listening to this, whoever ends up doing a show like this or a short film or a movie or a TV, whatever it is, that that to we our cast and crew were really good. We never really worried about the technical side of where the cray was supposed to be standing and where they were. Everybody was really on the ball about that, so that Ronan could focus on the authenticities of the two characters without everybody doing too much worrying about wait, should my shoulder be here, or wait, was my foot there, or should the light be from this side. We would we would work very hard to sustain that as a cast and crew while Ronan was off getting changed, so that when he came back, he didn't have to worry about where he was supposed to be standing and sitting.

We did that in the blocking too a little too. Yeah, like if I if I had come back and everyone all, you know, everyone was all of a sudden not on a break, but like, you know, on a everyone's having a coffee and sit around, and but you know, that would be very hard. Let that that drop that frequency. But because I was always coming back to the I mean the crew on this movie, honestly, I I love them so much that I think like we did such an amazing thing. I think we it we really created created a really special film that couldn't would not have been possible with anyone who wasn't involved.

[29:42] Ronan Summers: So you ain't gonna win. You have the brains. You sure have somebody got the stomach for it. You don't know me very well. I was gonna talk to you, they went to the simple fact that they like who we are. And they don't like who you are. They're not even gonna change. How fucking tricky you get. Fuck going in. Ruby.

[30:21] John Schwab: Hey everyone, this is Salesha Thomas from Black Hair and the Big Leagues, part of the Broadway Podcast Network. Welcome back to the Curtain Call Podcast. The elephant in the room is that this is it's completely changed how we make entertainment and content, film, TV commercials, television, theater, you name it, it's had to change. So, Ben, as the captain of this ship, how did you approach knowing that what you just talked about, the prep going into shooting, double scening everything, double taking everything. But but doing it safely, um, doing it in uh in a time where you you can't take time, as it were, because time is not our friend.

[31:13] Ben Mole: Some of shooting in COVID is a huge pain in the ass. Like uh technical, like we couldn't where we go on location scouts, right? You could only have three people, which means I had to go on the same location scout five times with each individual head head of department, and we had to be circuit, keep certain distances in the blocking, and that type of thing. That kind of thing was fine. You can just roll with that, it's tiring, it's more time consuming, but you you kind of you have to deal with it. What I did really miss was up close in the room with actors. That time you have to fuck up. Excuse me. Am I allowed to say it in that way? Yes, of course. Yeah. That time you have to get things wrong, to screw up, to fuck up if that's what we're going to say, to make mistakes, to try things out in a safe space where you're not under time pressure, a crew pressure and losing the light pressure, all the other stuff that you get when you've got a camera in front of you. And to really play with that in TV and some film and low budget films as well, you don't always get that either. But we try to, and certainly pre-COVID, we would always try and fight for that.

[32:15] Ronan Summers: And so I don't know about you, Ben, but that was the thing that I really did affect me about shooting under COVID, more than having to wear a mask and clean my hands and you know go on extra scouts because we can only get three in the bus and that kind of thing.

[32:29] Ronan Summers: Yes, I I I'm totally with you. Although I will add one thing to you, which you just uh said it didn't bother you. For me, receiving uh yes, the having that extra time and having that extra space and that up close and personal time is the number one thing that we have all had to sacrifice you know in making films and and TV in this current climate. But the thing that as an actor specifically, the thing that I have found the hardest, not just on this job, um, but on this job in particular, because there was so much heavy lifting and such close communication that needed to go on between Ben and I um was the masks, man. The masks. It's so hard to have a really, really good, you know, uh and it's I think it's a credit to the the rapport that we have it because we were able to get it done, but God, it makes it so much harder to really read another human being while you you're wearing those masks.

[33:26] Ben Mole: And I think that's a good lesson for everyone walking through life. I mean, if you think someone, you know, you're you're not getting the full story of someone's face when they're wearing those masks, as necessary as they are. So it requires really, really clear communication on both parties in order to overcome that hurdle. And it requires an effort that um a constant checking in somehow, some way, you know.

[33:49] Ronan Summers: And it's really interesting you say that because for me, I could see your whole face. Yeah, so I really did see all the details. But you were looking back at me. Wait, is he smiling? Is he what's he is it that little corner of his mouth twitching the way I know we're gonna have to do another three? Yeah, whatever that might be. That's interesting, because I felt that less than you, I think. Yeah, all those little cues that you get from a director, the things that a director doesn't want to have to say. Yeah, you know, the things that are the things that you hopefully, if you're an intuitive person, read. And you know, I and I, you know, actors are hopefully intuitive people, and I think I'm pretty good at that in general.

But the mask thing makes communic good communication from the director much more important and requires um, and I suppose as a director, it's good for if there's any directors listening to take note. If your actor doesn't feel like he's getting the note quite as easily as he was the last time you did a movie with him in 2019, it might be because he can't see your face.

[34:48] Ben Mole: Um so it's maybe not that he's a worse actor, it might be that you know there the the communication needs to be more verbal and and you can get those non-verbal cues out slightly less. You know, in our defense, we did a we did uh a lot of Zoom talking, more than I've ever done on any other job, actually. But to cut to overcompensate, perhaps we did a hell of a lot of talking around the characters. With all the cast I did this, and it was that was really valuable as well. And uh uh actually we couldn't have done it without that, because when you're shooting really quickly, you need to have the bass done before everybody knows that. But um it was so we did uh you there are things you can do to try and circumvent the whole immediacy of the communication on set, but you're never gonna be able to replace the the corner of a smile or a nod or a wink, or even just to I there are things we don't know we do that mean we want to do things slightly differently that we communicate three.

And actors make and actors make it their business to see those things you don't know you do. And try and try to like uh the way I get to impress a director is by knowing what he wants before he knows what he wants, and then giving it to him and him go, oh, that's exactly what I wanted. It makes playing that magic trick a little bit harder. But yeah, I would say that Ben did a phenomenal job of making that communication and that trust possible in that scenario. And that and actually one way that that happened, because there was a way that we we'd had a com we had a conversation about about the film as in these lead up conversations. Um we had been having a chat about the way that it was going to go because we were shooting under such heavy time constraints.

[36:29] Ronan Summers: And I remember that Ben had said to me, you know, because there's not a lot of action and a lot of car chases and fight scenes and all that sort of stuff, we're going to be able to spend some time on if you need that extra take because you know you weren't happy with your performance or whatever, we'll be able to find those moments to do those things.

[36:48] And as an actor, that's an incredibly comforting thing to hear. And it made me trust him going into the project. And then I remember that there was a day where I really put him to the test on our very first day, where we had we were in London on this beautiful house that was doubling for about five or six locations in the film. I mean, it was really doing some heavy lifting, and we had a lot of work to do this house. So and we were on we were behind schedule, as usual, day one of an independent project. Of course, you know, you're not going, you're you're a little bit behind you're run, you're running a little bit late because at by the end of the day. Um, and it was the last scene of the day, and but it was a scene that I thought was really important in the film, and I think Ben did too, but we were just under the crunch.

And I did a take, and I had a like a sort of warm-up take, which I stumbled through, and then I had a good ish take. And Ben, because he was making the call, and the first AD was also making the call, said, All right, I think we need to move on. We got that, that was okay. And I said to the room on day one, um, you know, I think I need one more, please. And Ben, bless him, looked at his watch, and there was like 20 minutes to go or something like that. Um, it was definitely under an hour, and the poor guy said yes. And from that, um, and we got our day kind of. Um, you know, we didn't get the whole day, but Ben got what he needed. Um, and but from that moment on, I knew that I was in safe hands, and I knew that Ben would uh was not gonna let me down in those little crunch moments on a on a really high intensity situation.

[38:29] So he said he was gonna do it in the chats beforehand, and then day one that was put to the test. Nice. And he came through. And from that moment on, I was able to put all of my trust in Ben and say, This guy's got me. He's not gonna let me make a fool of myself. And that was that's been the big thing, you know. There's a lot of weight of expectation for all the reasons that I mentioned at the start of the podcast. So that you know, the rule one of an act, you know, rule one of a doctor, do no harm, rule one of an actor, don't make a fool of yourself. You know, and I damn that's what I've been going wrong with.

[38:57] Yeah, unless they tell you to. Unless they tell you to. Um, so but I knew that Ben wasn't gonna let me make a fool of myself. And then and so then I was able to relax. Ronan, you've said you're not the lead character if there is a lead character. However, Ronnie and Reggie permeate this film. So even in the scenes you're not in, you're literally swimming through these scenes. I saw this almost as an ensemble piece. I think Alec Stephen, I mean, Alex's a fantastic actor. We you know, know him from of old. Alex Stephen, Andrew, and Michael Higgs in a brilliant. He's crazy, isn't he? You just want to punch him.

[39:36] It's fucking awesome. Yeah, I had to do that. I had no contact with him. It was such a lovely thing to see his performance. Yeah. Oh, it's I mean, it's crazy, yes, of course. But I saw it as a real ensemble piece. And Ben, what was like getting this cast together, getting him through it, shooting it, and then both of you, what you'd like to take, uh, what you'd like audiences to take away once they see this.

[40:00] Ben Mole: So I think when they approached us to do this, uh, an independent Kray gangster movie, I think pretty much everybody at the start said no. I don't want to do like a cheap punching people, running round streets on a thing. Because also Tom Hardy, they've just done that. There are other Kray films out there that did that. We did not want to do that at all. But I said, okay, there's a couple of things that we might be interested in. One, let's do the cops, not the Krays, and have the Krays being Jaws, Krays being black tech Krays being the villain. So let's try that, and then let's do a piece where we get inside their heads. And so we don't need to move around a lot. We can really find out who these people are and find out what that world was like through those people rather than through car chases and running down the streets.

[40:47] So that there is action in there. There's a bites and throw-ins and punches and all the other stuff, but we really wanted to focus on getting inside the heads of the people. So for that reason, uh the casting was vital, obviously, because you had to get great character actors to play those people. But it also meant, and here's the thing, it meant we could attract actors who probably wouldn't have done the previous. I don't think Ronan would have done a running around punching Kray of Krays movie. He would, but where it's a chance to really explore, and same applies to Steven and Alec and Mike and everybody else who was in it, and Ian Sharp, he um everyone said yes. I I I want to come and do this because it's uh got elements of theatricality, because it's got elements, it's still very cinematic.

We wanted to make a the staging theatrical, but the execution cinematic, and I think that is we did pull that off, actually, even though I say so myself, that there is some really good 60s in joke cinema cinematography and cinematicness to it.

[41:49] But so I think the the thing was with because our ambition was to make a piece that explored the characters that allowed us to attract actors who were interested in that, and then that comes full circle, and you get a great cast. And so that was fantastic, and we we just couldn't have done it with lesser casts, it would have been like a you know, it would have been a school play. I'm sure there are fantastic school plays, but it would have been it would not have been the sort of thing the the piece it is. And so I think if I want anyone to take anything away from it, it's it's I really proud of the movie. I think people like it, people tell me they like it. But if nothing else, watch it as a as a masterclass in the performances because they pop, they really do stand out across the board from Ronan having to play two to Stephen Moyer leading the uh the the cop investigation. It really they're just lovely to watch.

[42:46] Yeah, they're just really great. You can enjoy watching these talented actors play these characters and believe them. And I think that was that was that's really what it why I love it. I want people to really, I want particularly a British audience, but actually the world really to take away what uh what great entertaining drama and film that we can make in this country be uh, you know, in in Britain, with dare I say it, you know, a fraction, fractions of the Hollywood budgets and all that sort of stuff, but there that there's not necessarily a correlation between entertainment and budget always.

[43:30] Um, and I think that's a lesson that not just for our film, obviously, you know, it's great for our film if people can learn that lesson on December 27th when it's on our streaming platforms and on DVD. Um but you know, if they can learn good, he's been briefed. But but if they can learn that lesson in general and support independent cinema, and um, you know, listen to find and find out about the things that are coming out that are being made around the corner, you might be really, really surprised by how cool the stuff that is out there is because you know the film industry has become more democratized than ever with the advent of cheaper cameras, cheaper gear.

[44:14] There's tons of crew around, and people are making stuff left, right, and center. But the but the real thing that we need to do, the missing piece of the puzzle to make these films level up and make all of British cinema level up in general, is for audiences to watch this stuff en masse. Um, you know, there's no point in saying that you support independent art and and then ingesting Marvel.

[44:43] Yeah. So go ingest Marvel. I love Marvel. Just Yeah, we all love Marvel. This is not a we're not down a Marvel. But there's really cool stuff out there too, and uh and it's being made around the corner from your house. So go check it out and support it because uh it means that that British stuff will just get cooler and bigger and more interesting, and we'll have more opportunities to express ourselves, which will lead to better films in the future as well.

[45:07] John Schwab: So Ben. Ben Mole, Ronan Summers, thank you so much for joining me. Um chatting through your process. It is fascinating. Um it's a fantastic film. It was thrilling. It was I did the opening scene is I mean, you just get straight into it and go, we're gonna go for a ride, and you do. So well done. Uh, you know, I'm fanboying a bit over this film, but I'm I'm just really proud of uh knowing Ronan uh and seeing him do something, and something that's so far out of in my in my experience, so far out of his wheelhouse uh and nailing it. And Ben, good luck with it, guys. And fantastic uh fantastic kudos, everything for just making uh a very good British independent film.

[45:55] Give yourself a Christmas present in between Christmas and New Year. Sit down and enjoy a really good film. That's all I really need to say, right?

[46:02] Ben Mole: Absolutely, absolutely.

[46:04] John Schwab: Happy New Year.

[46:05] Ben Mole: Yeah, Merry Christmas.

[46:06] John Schwab: Alright, guys, we'll see you soon.

[46:08] Ben Mole: All right, see you soon.

[46:09] John Schwab: Lots of love, John.

[46:14] John Schwab: Actor Ronan Summers and director Ben Mole there discussing their new project, Code of Silence. Now, before I go, just a few housekeeping little bits. Uh quick reminder that you can download and subscribe to the podcast from the Apple Podcast app or iTunes. That way your feed will automatically be updated when we release episodes.

[46:33] But you can also listen to us on many other fine podcast streaming services such as Stitcher, uh, Google Play, iHeartRadio, and all the rest. Rate and review the podcast if you have spare 30 seconds and help us reach more lovers of entertainment out there around the globe. You can follow us on all the socials, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook at Curtain Call, all one word. Or you can follow me at John Schwab at J-O-H-N-S-C-H-W-A-B.

[46:57] We'd love to hear from you if you have any suggestions or feedback for the podcast. Get in touch with us via any of the social media platforms I just mentioned, or write to me personally at John at Curtain Call online.com. Don't forget to sign up for a free profile on Curtain Call. If you are a theater, live events, or entertainment professional, just go to curtaincallonline.com.

[47:16] And it leaves me to say a huge thank you to Ronan Summers, Ben Mole, and the producers of Code of Silence, Lucinda Thakur and Jeep Thacrar. Do yourself a favor and see this film, guys. It is superbly enjoyable. It's a fantastic watch. It will be streaming in the UK from the 27th of December on all streaming platforms. And you can also get yourself a physical copy, if that is your jam, on DVD in major stores from the same date.

[47:43] Thank you to Sure Microphones for continuing to be our equipment sponsor for this podcast. A huge thank you to the incredibly talented, extremely upbeat Silicia Thomas of Black Hair in the Big Leagues Podcast for a little intro into the second half of our podcast. If you haven't checked out our podcast, head on over to the Broadway Podcast Network website or app and do that and support uh Celicia in all her endeavors. We love her.

[48:06] Lastly, a big thank you to all of you who tune in regularly to this podcast. It's been another crazy but beautiful year, and we absolutely appreciate your support. Stay safe and look after yourselves. Have a fantastic holiday season and new year. Bye.