This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:15] John Schwab: Hi, John Schwab here, and welcome to the Curtain Call Podcast.

[0:20] John Schwab: Well, it certainly has been a minute. So much has gone on with the Curtain Call behind the scenes, but listen, that's a whole other podcast on its own, and we'll do that one later.

[0:31] John Schwab: Curtain Call is the podcast that takes you deep behind the scenes of the theater world, bringing you in-depth conversations with the story makers that are shaping the future of theater. And we pull back the curtain to reveal the stories behind the stories, give you a glimpse into the backstage world like no other podcast does.

[0:49] John Schwab: This week I'm chatting with writer M. Oliver and actor Bavan Amar.

[0:54] John Schwab: Earlier in the year, I was honored to be asked to judge the 2022 Durham Drama Festival at Durham University in the UK. It was an incredible three days of workshops, talks, networking events, but most importantly, new theater written and directed and performed by the incredible talent pool of students at Durham University.

[1:15] John Schwab: Full disclosure, my alma mater. One of the standout plays was M. Oliver's Beautiful Nothing, a one-woman show bringing into sharp focus how evil the internet can be towards women and the pitfalls that lie therein. It was a great piece of theater, and I wasn't at all surprised to hear that it was going to the Fringe Festival this year.

[1:46] John Schwab: Definitely. But enough of this intro. Sit back and listen to M. Oliver and Bavan Amar talk about Beautiful Nothing's journey from a simple idea to the Edinburgh Fringe Festival.

[1:59] John Schwab: I'm joined by M. Oliver and Bavan Amar. And uh I would uh we're here to talk about this amazing play called Beautiful Nothing that's about to go to the Fringe, the Edinburgh Fringe, and it's something I saw at the Durham Drama Festival. Thank you guys so much for coming along and chatting to me because um you know I'm a fan of this play, and I think as many people should see it as possible.

[2:25] John Schwab: I would like to just give me a little bit of a genesis of the play and the background, and then we'll kind of ask Bev about her journey as well. But we'll start off with where it came from. We'll start at the very beginning.

[2:39] M. Oliver: Um brilliant. Well, thank you so much for having us, first of all.

[2:43] John Schwab: My pleasure.

[2:44] M. Oliver: Um the concept really kind of grew out of one very specific monologue that I just sort of had in my back catalogue. I don't know. I feel like any writers will have their sort of recycling bin of just like it's the problem with having all the documents and all the files, because I just have all of these half-finished things.

[3:10] M. Oliver: And it was a monologue all about how actresses get these deep fakes made of them, which is when fans or perhaps anti-fans edit their body onto pornography or edit their face onto the bodies of pornographic photos. And they can be really convincing, and there are whole kind of scandals about people thinking their nudes have been leaked, but really they're just deep fakes.

[3:39] M. Oliver: And it was born out of this moment where she gets cornered at a family gathering, and a member of her family has found them and doesn't believe that it's not her, and it's this kind of feeling of powerlessness. Um I remember revisiting this monologue and just having this sense. I think I renamed it, come back to this, it has lens.

[4:06] M. Oliver: And it was I think catchy title.

[4:09] M. Oliver: Yeah, really, really had something there. Um all block capitals, and yeah, and then it was just one day where I think I was just in a bit of a slump, um, a bit of a depression day, and didn't get out of my bed and just sat and wrote it, and it just in that incredible kind of flowing violent way, it just formed, and suddenly there was a bare bones, and yeah, I guess that's sort of I almost feel like the character made the play. It was like she reached out of it and grabbed me and was like, This is a story that needs to be told.

[4:52] John Schwab: It's a gripping story, and when you say you know, when you say monologue, it's it almost diminishes how powerful and big this piece is because it is a monologue, it is a one-person show, but was that initial monologue something smaller than the because I guess what was it about?

[5:13] M. Oliver: A I can't remember a Durham Drama festival. It was a pretty significant length, it was almost about it's about 50 minutes.

[5:16] Bavan Amar: 50 minutes.

[5:22] John Schwab: I was about to say it was almost an hour, wasn't it?

[5:25] M. Oliver: Oh, very much, and it's not even that's sort of barely the instigating incident of it all. Um it just felt like that tiny was a little there was a tiny fragment of something that had happened to her and how she'd reacted to it, and then it all formed around that.

[5:41] John Schwab: Bev, you've got to have the amazing opportunity to play this amazing, it literally is an amazing role. It just is so elastic how much you know you can put into this. But when you first read this um monologue, this play by M, what was it that made made you go, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is this is what I what I'd like to do.

[6:07] Bavan Amar: Um I think I always realised, I think from the beginning that it was incredibly well written. Um and what I liked about Anya was that you know, she's flawed. Um, you know, she she prides herself on being someone that you know she doesn't take anything to heart, she doesn't take anything seriously, including herself.

[6:28] Bavan Amar: And yeah, at the beginning of the play, she talks about, you know, like Em said, her face being edited onto a naked body. And although deep down for a 17-year-old, that would obviously scare you, and it would make you feel very violated. Um, you know, her response to the audience, well, you know, it was um body, I looked good, and I don't think that response came because you know, she's emotionally immature or anything.

[6:55] Bavan Amar: I think she's incredibly mature. I think it's more that she knows that if she allows herself to just ponder and she if she just lets those thoughts sort of sit in her mind, then she'd find herself in a very dark headspace, and so she doesn't want that, and so instead of tackling the problem, she just makes a flippant remark about it and makes a joke out of it and ignores it.

[7:20] Bavan Amar: Um, which is I think similar to what a lot of people in our generation do about mental health. We often make jokes if we've got you know, sort of depression or anxiety or anything like that. Um, and so I think she's also quite a relatable character as well.

[7:36] John Schwab: How much did you research? We all as actors, we do our research, we like to go in, but was it I mean, gosh, this is a depressing question. Was it easy to find the stories? Was it easy to find how what impact a deepfake has on people?

[7:51] Bavan Amar: Um please say it was difficult.

[7:55] Bavan Amar: I mean, it was it's something that you know happens, and I think you'd be very naive to think otherwise.

[8:00] Bavan Amar: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But obviously, you know, when you read about things and you know, you sort of watch videos and you watch interviews of celebrities that have experienced it, it is that bit more hard-hitting, and you know, it's quite a bitter pill to swallow.

[8:14] Bavan Amar: Um I mean, as a writer as well, I had friends when we were 13 and people got their nudes shared around. So it's just one of those really like it it's awful, but it's that kind of truth of our internet. They call it like a generation of internet nomads.

[8:34] Bavan Amar: We've sort of grown up with almost completely unfettered access to this kind of intense like resource, but feels so much more than that that it's just completely articulated, and uh it's almost a character in the play.

[8:54] M. Oliver: I think the idea of the age of internet is something that I'm really interested in exploring and it's what a lot of the play is focused on so yeah I think sadly it is the reality of I've known people who've literally had that experience.

[9:10] Bavan Amar: Yeah I think that's the thing about this play as well it's you're dealing with something that's bigger than just Anya's experience and the play itself you know many girls and and women alike are gonna resonate to her experience and you know that's unfortunate but it is sort of the harsh truth and so I think it's it's very important to all of us that we do justice to them as much as sort of the play and and that element of it.

[9:37] John Schwab: And going back to the early days rehearsal did you guys workshop this play because I know it's had um you know we we met at the Durham Drama Festival we saw a version of this I'm sure you've been working on it and and it's it's changed we part of the Durham Drama Festival we had note sessions afterwards there when we liked and you know this criticism and it was so well received it was an amazing amazing show when did you guys start um working on it to develop it was it right at the beginning and did it change from when Bev first came on uh onto the project to where I saw it and then from then in I think it was guys when was the Durham Drama Festival it wasn't February was it?

[10:21] M. Oliver: Yeah February I think so February to now now August you know could can you take me a bit through like how that journey of the development of the piece when the elements, because I know we don't have Charlie here, and but give us the the director's kind of input and also design.

[10:40] Bavan Amar: I'd love to know a little bit about that too as well.

[10:42] M. Oliver: Yeah, I mean, I think in terms of the Durham Drama Festival, we only had four weeks to do it, so it was quite a quick turnaround.

[10:50] Bavan Amar: Um in terms of you know, sort of, you know, from my part, I think at the beginning I was playing some elements more sort of seriously and intensely, and you know, it was then Charlie that helped me step out of my comfort zone and and really lean into the more comedic moments of the play.

[11:09] Bavan Amar: Um, and that's something that we've done even more now because Em's included more about sort of Anya's relationship with her mum and sort of a bit more background in terms of helping the audience understand how she's got herself in the situation that she's currently in.

[11:27] Bavan Amar: Um in terms of sets, we've still got the pillow for.

[11:33] M. Oliver: Um didn't want to.

[11:35] Bavan Amar: I love that idea.

[11:36] Bavan Amar: I love the pillow for it.

[11:37] M. Oliver: It's a safe place, isn't it?

[11:38] Bavan Amar: Yeah, yeah.

[11:40] Bavan Amar: And I think we've still that that I think was the main element of it.

[11:44] Bavan Amar: That and the phone.

[11:45] Bavan Amar: Um, we had projection in DDF.

[11:49] M. Oliver: Um, we've realized that that will be a bit hard now to transfer to Edinburgh Fringe, so we put a pinboard um there instead.

[11:57] Bavan Amar: The most exciting thing about being able to take it to fringe was just it's not a completely new play, but it was such a joy to write it.

[12:09] M. Oliver: There are so many comedic parts that I had only envisioned how I would have performed them, and there are now parts that are written specifically for Bav.

[12:20] M. Oliver: And also, this is it's bad because Charlie isn't here because she keeps us sensible.

[12:24] M. Oliver: It stops me and Bav just gushing at each other.

[12:27] M. Oliver: But and yeah, the kind of new but still the same central character is genuinely so inspired by Bav because she's someone that I just admire so much.

[12:39] M. Oliver: You can definitely tell, probably just from this interview that she's so grounded and confident and self-assured, despite having going through the awful trauma really of lockdowns during some of your most formative years, and I just so impressed by you all the time, and I really wanted to have it reflected in this piece.

[13:03] M. Oliver: So it's grown so much, and I think Bav was the only person that I saw Anya outside of myself, if that makes sense. Bav knows I'm already Bab's like number one fan. I think she is pretty incredible, and she's amazing to watch on stage, and I think you're right. That it's funny, Bab, that the chats we've had about ground and how grounded you are. I think that's definitely what Anya now is. She is it's almost like they're grounded to the place where she is on stage, but also there is no one else to fall back on when you're in a one-woman show. You can only rely on yourself and the writing, you know, and the writing. So you have to be grounded. Bab, have you grown, you know, with the piece that like when you find yourself on stage, you know, when the lights come up and you guys are rehearsing, have you found that this character has grown in her view of the world where she finds herself? Although she's still grounded, you know, it has her experiences of what she's been going through kind of a little bit more world weary. I'd love to know how that character has grown.

[14:21] Bavan Amar: Yeah, I'd definitely I think, especially sort of throughout the play at the end, you can see that she is in a very different headspace than you know how she was at the beginning, and yeah, I think in a one-woman show, I think it's easier almost to show that development and show that change. You know, like you said, it is hard because you don't I guess have anyone else there to ground you as a character, and so that I think almost becomes the audience's job, and because Anya I think has a lot of direct interaction with the audience and uses them as you know, she breaks the fourth wall quite a lot, you know, she's letting them into her little world, and I think they in a sense almost motivate her to change and develop.

[15:17] John Schwab: Hey everyone, this is Salesha Thomas from Black Hair and the Big Leagues, part of the Broadway Podcast Network. Welcome back to the Curtain Call Podcast. Moving on from Durham, we had quite a wide stage in Durham. It was very much this thing. So the character has maybe grown and her view of where she fits in this story. However, I imagine the stage you're gonna be on in Edinburgh is a little smaller, a little more compact. So, how have you approached bringing the play to a new house that is completely different physically? Both in the writing, have you had to look at it in the writing, or are there any moments that have changed because of that? And also performance wise.

[16:04] M. Oliver: Um, well, I can sort of speak to a design point of view. The venue we premiered Beautiful Nothing in, it was the most ridiculously long stage that anyone's ever seen. Perhaps the longest, some would think. I think Baby got a workout running back and forth across the stage. I don't know how she did it. It was our breath of quite racing. 500 meter race, getting from one of the audience to the other. We walked in and they'd gotten the center aisle and then two huge blocks of audience, and I was just like, oh my word, how is she gonna fill this space? And she did. But we're actually on a bit more of a I think the stage the space will be so much easier for Bav because it's a six meter by three meter.

But I've extended out the pillow fort. Nice. So it's all kind of leaning into this idea of someone who is very childlike, slash is a child and is still innocent, being around all of this awful thing on the internet, basically, and it's very bright colours, but then portraying the kind of comments she's getting online, so it's sort of like kill yourself in beautiful pink crochet, if that makes sense.

[17:30] Bavan Amar: Yeah, so I've kind of got it's gonna be very colourful, and my parents have been kind of working me, watching me work on it, painting it kind of like, oh that's it's lovely, darling painting by slut on this flowery sheet. So that's sort of kind of encasing her but other than that so that's sort of designed specifically for the space that we're using but other than that it will actually just be a lot easier though one of my favourite moments from the whole production was the first night when Bab I think about two minutes in threw her phone so far across the room it disappeared under a curtain and she had to complete the production just without it. That's so hopefully in the moment Bab in the moment it's fine oh it was a so powerful the moment of it happening I was like oh my goodness she didn't then have to like mime a phone call I think you just see me looking around the stage at the same time you would kind of wonder over but it was so properly gone it was so forcefully there was no way it was coming back.

[17:30] M. Oliver: No I think it's it's a lot easier now to adapt it because you know the space in which I'm rehearsing is is pretty similar to what we're getting at the space and so there's not a lot of changes that need to be made in that respect. I think one thing I did do is that you know I think certainly at the beginning she's sort of full of energy and when she's multi-rolling and things like that and I definitely use the space to my advantage so I think in you know this case I'm just gonna have to make sure that I keep the momentum and I keep the energy going without having to travel so much around the space and use all of it.

[19:24] Bavan Amar: Um which yeah I I'm not I'm not concerned about it. I think we'll probably also just have to make sure you're not too intense in the very intimate space. We're gonna be like Bob don't traumatize them. They're right up in front of you.

[19:38] M. Oliver: Yeah that's true actually the very close. So it will be much more subtle or they'll be able to appreciate more of the nuance. I can imagine this being like this the space draws you into the trailer or the room wherever Anya is and you feel like you're there with her and it's a one-on-one conversation. It's not so much presenting you're actually just going hey welcome to my hill I love this piece Beautiful Nothing is a beautiful play. I really enjoyed it I thought as a middle aged white dude you know would I get this and oh my god it just made me it made me think about my you know my nieces and what they've got to do I just was like it's and also I was challenged almost to laugh and not to laugh I was like oh my god I shouldn't find this funny this is hilarious.

This is it's terrible it's terrible in my am I allowed to laugh and we're looking around and and I think that's one thing that you've captured in me really well is the are we allowed to laugh at this um good and thank you very much.

[20:54] John Schwab: I mean it's great. So I mean I could wax lyrical about it but what I'd like to finish on is what's the one thing from both of you that you'd like the audience to walk away from this. You know, this is a you're going to the Edinburgh Fringe, people love their theatre there, but what would you like these theater lovers to walk away with when they leave Beautiful Nothing?

[21:13] Bavan Amar: Oh, well, I'd definitely like people to reassess the way they use social media and the way that they feel about female celebrities. Because I think it transfers from just thinking about theatre and the way you consume theatre. I hope it makes people think about how they use Instagram, for example. And I think I hope it I hope people start to sort of assess their role in this problem. And you know, the last thing that I would want is for certain people to think, well, you know, I haven't been involved in that kind of thing, and therefore it's it's not my problem. You know, this is you know, like I said, it's it's a problem that affects, you know, I would say over 90% of the girls and women that will, you know, come and see this play, and you know, just in the world in general. I think it's very important that people understand that because I think all too often people do just turn a blind eye to these kinds of things if it doesn't affect them.

[22:17] M. Oliver: Um yeah, yeah, exactly. And that's what I like about this play. It has dealt with sort of very hard-hitting themes in a way that doesn't shy away from them, but I think we do also deal with them sensitively.

[22:33] Bavan Amar: Yeah.

[22:34] John Schwab: Amazing. Well, actually, it wasn't the last thing because I need to ask you where can people I'm I'm gonna be away annoyingly. I'm not going to the fringe this year, we're going on holiday for the taking the boys home for the first time in three and a half years. So um sounds good.

[22:49] Bavan Amar: I know.

[22:50] John Schwab: It's a good excuse, John. Where can people A see it and B give their tickets?

[22:58] M. Oliver: Right, Bab, shall I take shall I take it away?

[23:00] Bavan Amar: I'm ready.

[23:01] M. Oliver: Go on, then.

[23:02] Bavan Amar: Go on, Em. So we're lucky enough to be partnered with the space, and you can find us in venue 53 Surgeons Hall at 10 a.m. from the 15th of August to the 20th. So it is it is a hard-hitting way to start your day, but it's gonna be a great time. The space is really beautiful, and you can find tickets on the Edinburgh Fringe website on the space website, search up Beautiful Nothing, and you can also find the ticket link on our social medias. So at Nough Play on Twitter and at Beautiful Nothing Play on Instagram. Give us a follow.

[23:46] M. Oliver: Give you a follow. That was a really good idea. We have probably lost them at all. I think it was good.

[23:53] John Schwab: Awesome. Guys, M. Oliver, Bav Amar, thank you so much for coming on and talking to me. And I wish you all the success. I properly wish you all the success, and many people need to go watch a show. Like you say, start the day right. Go see beautiful play. Do it.

[24:10] Bavan Amar: Oh, thank you so much.

[24:12] M. Oliver: Thank you for having us.

[24:18] John Schwab: Bav Amar and M. Oliver, two of the creators of Beautiful Nothing, playing later this month at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival. And I'll tell you where you can get tickets in just a second. So I'd like to thank you for listening. But before we go, a quick reminder to say that if you did like this episode, or indeed any of our episodes of the Curtain Call Podcast, please go to whichever streaming platform you use and leave a rating and a review. It really does help others like you find the podcast. If you want to reach out to us, you can find us on all the socials at Curtain Call, all one word. And if you want to reach out to me, I am at John Schwab, J O H N S C H W A B on all the socials. Lastly, I'd like to thank M. Oliver and Bav Amar for coming along and chatting with me today.

You can catch Beautiful Nothing at the space at Surgeons Hall in Edinburgh, otherwise known as the Haldane Theater, from the 15th to the 20th of August at 10 a.m. Tickets at edfringe.com or thespaceuk.com. Go see it. Start your day right. Join us again next week when we'll speak with another of Durham Drama Fest's successes, Ben Willows, and his explosive play, Cottage. Bye.