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[0:14] John Schwab: Hi, John Schwab here, and welcome to the Curtain Call Podcast.

[0:18] John Schwab: Curtain Call is the podcast that takes you deep behind the scenes of the theater world, bringing you in-depth conversations with the story makers that are shaping the future of theater.

[0:27] John Schwab: We pull back the curtain to reveal the stories behind the stories and give you a glimpse into the backstage world like no other podcast can.

[0:35] John Schwab: This week I'm chatting with writer, actor, and all-round theater maker Ben Willows.

[0:39] John Schwab: Earlier in the year, I was honored to be asked to judge the 2022 Durham Drama Festival at Durham University in the UK. Incredible three days, talks, uh workshops, networking events, but most importantly, new theater written, directed, and performed by the incredible talent pool of students at Durham Uni.

[0:56] John Schwab: In our last episode, we chatted to the makers of Beautiful Nothing, and another of Durham Drama Festival's standout successes was Cottage, which took home a number of awards, including Best Play.

[1:08] John Schwab: Cottage is a gripping comic drama that has so many themes bubbling underneath the facade of two men meeting up in a public toilet. It goes way beyond that, way beyond a queer story, and it commands the audience's attention and asks questions of the viewers' thoughts into human relationships and their deeply complicated makeup, no matter what sexual preference one might have.

[1:31] John Schwab: Cottage's playwright Ben Willows sat down with me in separate rooms, of course, because he's already in Edinburgh performing in a show, to talk about where the idea came for Cottage and its journey so far. Have a listen.

[1:45] John Schwab: Ben, it's really good to see you, man. Um it's been a while. Um so uh this is kind of a uh the second I've got three interviews I've done um you know of people that were involved with the Durham Drama Festival who are uh you know, and also going up to the French. So it's it's great to have you on here and um just chatted with uh Bav and M on there for their um you know beautiful nothing, which is great. Um, you know, and I thought I've got to get Ben on here as well because um I just love those two plays. You know, I I honestly um, you know, uh I didn't think when I was going to a drama festival, you know, and and and watching students, I forget how accomplished we are and when we're that young, you know. I I I'm now I'm approaching 50, so when I see 20 year olds, I go, Oh, they're so young. That's like and I no, it's not the case. And I was blown away by the plays at Durham Drama Festival. You closed out the festival with Cottage.

[2:46] Ben Willows: I did.

[2:47] John Schwab: It got insane reviews um because it was insanely good and it won all kinds of awards. So but we'll get to that in a minute. Um so Ben Willows, I'm talking with Ben Willows, a writer of Cottage, and uh he's currently up at the French, uh, you know, in another play, and we can talk about that in a second. But um, you are taking Cottage. Uh you and the team are taking Cottage uh to to perform there later this month. What what I'd like you to do is just give me an origin story of why Cottage and and what made you um want to tell the story uh and and give us a bit of background about what it is as well. So people know what we're talking about.

[3:25] Ben Willows: Absolutely. So um I I went and studied English at uh Durham, but in my first year I didn't like a lot of the modules that were on offer for English, so I wanted to do something a bit different. And in a fit of I think it was probably madness, I ended up choosing a criminology module, which I didn't really engage with that much, it wasn't very well taught in my opinion. But there was one book that we did uh study that really grabbed me, and it was called Tea Room Trade by Lord Humphreys, and it was a criminological and a sociological study into cottaging. Uh, this was um in America in the 50s, this book, but obviously it's a very British thing as well. Cottage cottaging is British slang, and I'd known about it before.

I'd you know heard rumors of actors and celebrities who'd been caught cottaging, but I hadn't really thought about it that much, and I read this book and it was very engaging actually for a sociological text, and I ended up thinking about oh well, there's there's you know the tension here of two people who've never met who are in this intensely you know intimate but dangerous setting, and I thought, wow, that's that's a really good play. It there's you know the startings of a play there, yeah. And yeah, one day I just started writing it, and it flowed, it really did flow. The the environment and the two characters, the way they have to interact with you know, initially very terse, quick sentences, it it just spilled out of me.

It was a joy to write. Um, and and then yeah, sent into the Durham Drama Festival, um, did very well, and I have an amazing team, an incredible cast. Um, but yeah, so the the synopsis of the play is basically two men walk into these toilets looking for sex, yeah. But the the play goes into is it what they actually want?

[5:26] Ben Willows: Yeah, I I think you know, uh about any I think any story that's that is so on top what you you know the the what you've just described is so on the top level of what the play is about it's much more I mean two guys walking in to the toilet looking for sex is the context but that's this play is not about that it's about so much more it is it is but in a way I don't I'm I'm sometimes quite bad at pitching shows because I want people to go in blind yeah if I go and see a show I never read reviews I barely read a synopsis I want to be surprised and that's the joyous thing about new writing and I would argue especially student writing is you have no clue what's gonna happen yeah it might be one of the worst things you've ever seen in your life but even that will still surprise you or it might be something that just hits you around the head and you're like wow yeah that's brilliant beautiful nothing for me was that that was brilliant yeah I yeah I mean a lot of I I'm forgetting the name of the the play where the the the actor wakes up on stage in an apocalypse and it's you know if an actor doesn't have an audience what is there um you know is is is he still an actor that kind of uh existential and metaphysical questions that we we put out there but I mean I I just thought you know every every one of the pieces I I saw had merit and I love the fact that there was no um no walls keeping boundaries of the playwright's imaginations and and the in the productions and what you did for the the amount you had um and did did that give you the did did the Durham drama festival you the scope to kind of develop it has it has it changed much in those since those first days that when it kind of poured out of you the script or um has has it kind of have you locked have you do you think you've locked in a really tight because it is a great type piece it's uh it's under an hour isn't it it's like a lovely one act uh you know where it but a proper proper story but did it develop much?

[5:26] Ben Willows: I edited it and I tinkered it after finishing it because I finished it before the applications opened for the festival um but then for the festival it was locked in that was it that was a thing since then going on from feedback from uh you guys on the panel from reviews and also to make it a bit longer so it's now 50 minutes like solid 50 minutes I have added more in and I've especially fleshed out um again I don't want to go too far in but it's I know I get what you listen I know what you're about to say and and I was I'm kind of had happy you didn't because um you know you do want to get you do want to see this you know there are there are twists and turns and and it's it's it is a thrilling play and you if you say too much um uh about characters then you you you the uh unexpected well the yeah it becomes expected and you don't want it to be so I I get what you're saying so there there you fleshed out characters you've you've looked at everything yeah yeah okay cool um and and so did you always um I'm just going through the the technical stuff here because I'd love to tell talk to you about the the French experience but did you always um envisage this going to fridge I I know that when we met in February and this is a long I just think it was already February it felt like last week Ben you know isn't that crazy um would you know did did you always have an eye on the fringe because we we loved it we loved the play the panel loved the play the audience loved the play and I was just hoping I I'd love to see it in London.

[8:47] Ben Willows: I really would love to see it in London. It's a perfect you know it is a it's a perfect play for a a small venue for for people to come in and almost, you know, if you keep it at at 50 minutes, um, you know, it's a lunchtime play, if it you know, or part of what one act festivals down here, but I mean I I could I could watch the those characters for uh a a good another half an hour and not feel bloated because I was fascinated with the cares, I wanted to I wanted more. But was the fringe the next logical step, Ben?

[9:15] Ben Willows: That's my my kind of question. Um in retrospect it was at the time I I don't know, I I hadn't really dreamt about it because Fringe, I have dreamt about coming to Fringe for I would say about a decade now.

[9:29] Ben Willows: And it's your first one, isn't it?

[9:31] Ben Willows: It's my first one, yeah. So my school a few years above me, there was like this group of A-level students were just amazing at drama, and they went up to fringe, and so in my head, I was like, Well, that'll be me in a few years. No luck. I didn't get there. And and then I came to uni, I was like, Well, this is it, university. This you know, I'll get into a student-written play, I'll go to fringe COVID. Yeah, so uh this has really been my first opportunity. And so when I was writing Cottage, I I think I didn't really dare to dream. I was like, okay, well, this is Durham now, and I think like there's there's the risk of just sometimes thinking only in your books.

[10:13] John Schwab: Yes, I get it.

[10:14] Ben Willows: Yeah, and I think if I hadn't had the support from obviously the judges and the viewers, but especially my team, then I don't know, it would have been a tough push to do. So yeah, but um with the team behind me, I'm so so glad it's come to fringe. And I I would love to take it further. I think I need to see it again. I need to see how the guys have settled into it, yeah to see if I can even expand it more. Because I don't want to make it bloated, that's the thing. Because it works being short and snappy. But um, yeah, if I can add more, I would love to. Because yeah, yeah, it's it's a great play. And I think that um, you know, in in the more liberal of states in America and and you know, uh theaters around, it's a great play to do.

Students, this is a great piece of theater for uh that for anyone to take on because it is a lit uh uh a limited cast, it is you know, it's not you don't have to have a massive set. What it is is in the writing, but the performances are were incredible in this, and I know they are. The thing is, I I was astonished that Ben, you wrote a frickin' amazing play that you're not in, because you're also a freaking good actor. Like the literary.

[11:22] Ben Willows: Well, I mean, I was in I was in cottage for a night because um Ben Lewis had COVID, the opening night of Durham Drama Festival. So I so I learned his lines in a week and uh went on that night, which was an experience. Um but um yeah, well, it was at that point in my life, that was really the second proper play that I'd written, and I was still I was still sort of developing my acting and my writing separately, and what and something that I fervently believe in for all up, but I would say especially theatre, is that collaboration makes it better.

[12:02] Ben Willows: Yeah, I'm uh 100%.

[12:04] Ben Willows: Yeah, and I'm so I I take pride in the fact that I'm quite healthy in just giving a director, giving a prod team a script and saying, like, you go with it. I'll be here for help, I will come to rehearsals, help out. But like this is ours now, this isn't just mine. And like the I always say to the actors, if something isn't working, if it doesn't sound right, if it sounds like paper, then say because you know I'm just typing things out, it might not sound right. Um, but yeah, but then acting in Cottage that one night was an incredible experience.

[12:33] Ben Willows: So my last play at Durham was a one-man show that I wrote, Amazon, and it was oh, it was amazing. Uh but there's there's a there's a danger in it, I think. You you don't want to I don't know. I I want my writing to be beyond me in a way, and my acting as well. And I feel like so I was so careful doing By Panic, my one man show, yeah, that it wasn't like, oh, it's the it's the Ben Willows show. Like, no, it was it was a separate entity, it was separate characters, separate play from me. Yeah, um, and I I think it helps having that divide of actors doing your writing. But um, no, I would. I I I either of those roles in Cottage, I I would love to play.

[13:20] John Schwab: Hey everyone, this is Salisha Thomas from Black Hair and the Big Leagues, part of the Broadway podcast network. Welcome back to the Curtain Call Podcast. Are you kind of confident that um the play is going to play even better when the when it when it that venue gets a little bit smaller and brings people into into those toilets on AMT? Because I I think with the with the assembly rooms, it's a lovely. I I performed in there so many times. It's but it can be intimidating. It's like it's pretty big, and the stage itself is really deep. We we brought it up a bit for Cottage, but yes, really deep. Um, I think because of how intensely intimate the play is by virtue of the characters, by virtue of the context, I think that it will really help being a smaller space.

[14:11] Ben Willows: And the space is where I'm performing right now, it's the same space. Great. Oh, I'm so fantastic. You know, it's it's so lovely. I've really liked Ganny True, and it's only about 40, 50 people. Um, and yet you don't have to worry about projection, and because of that, sometimes just you can just let it flow, let the naturalism flow. You don't have to worry about reaching the people back in row M, you know. Yeah, you can just focus intensely on your scene partner, and people will be hanging on your every word. And I I love it. And um, I could see that the the two actors you had were Ben Lewis, Steven Ledger, and um and they playing one and two, and um they they there were moments you felt that they wanted to draw it in but had to give a little bit more, they had to project it, be quite a bit.

And and I think that they Stephen Ledger is has I mean, he has a stillness that's really hard to do on stage, and it's great to see him have that. And and Ben is phenomenal because he's like he's going maybe in about 85 different directions at the same time, you know, in this character who just doesn't who wants to be there but doesn't want to be there, it can't be seen, but needs to be. I mean, it's it's there's so much that energy they played so so well. I mean, how lucky you been to have them back again to do this.

[15:32] Ben Willows: It is absolutely incredible, and and yeah, and it was it was sort of a punt, really, because I knew Steven a bit when we cast him. I didn't know Ben Rose at all. Right. And to have such talented actors who have such an incredible chemistry and dynamic as well, and they have developed that so much more since the play. They've become very good friends. They've done more plays, and they've done a run of cottage in the Durham Fringe, which I didn't get to see. But was really good. And that was in a smaller theater as well. So it allowed them to do more.

[16:04] John Schwab: Oh, that's good. Yeah, both of them are brilliant. Um, Steven, I did History Boys with Stephen, and there's a so I was playing Hexer and he was playing Posner, and there's a scene just before the interval where it's just the two of them, and so still throughout the entire both of us, and it was oh, it was one of the most magical moments I've had on stage every night. It was such a beautiful scene, and he was such a generous and listening scene part, yeah, which is something so difficult. You often find people who you know, they're looking at you, but their eyes are glazed over and they're thinking of the next line, or they're thinking, yeah, that was true, and Steven is not that he's waiting to respond.

Um Ben Lewis, yeah. He has such a force behind him, but also such a softness as well. Yeah, and and that's what's included in that character as well. Because as you said, it's a character of conflicts. So many things going on in his mind, so many different he's he's jittery, yeah. Um and yeah, Ben just does it so well and so truthfully. I'd love to see them in it. I I was meant to go to the showcase when you guys came and and we had COVID in the family, and I was like, This you know, it's just so so so annoying because I feel like I felt like I was part of something special.

[17:20] Ben Willows: I know this it makes it about me, but I felt like personally, I felt like I was part of something special at that drama festival or the Durham Drama Festival because there was so much great talent on shows. I was just like, this is took me back to my days when I, you know, I'm watching Kate Graham in the West End, and loads of people that I've worked with, you know. Fred Perry owns the Chiswick Playhouse, you know, all these people. Um, this would play brilliantly in the Chiswick Playhouse, by the way. Fred, if you're listening, book these guys. Um, but there are so many of our our group have gone out there and done it, and I saw the same energy in your group, and it gave me chill bumps, like walking into the assembly room and going, Oh, this is I remember this 30 years ago. I remember just going, yeah, this is where I belong.

[18:04] Ben Willows: Durham is amazing. Like it it wasn't, I you know, I dreamed of going to drama school straight after school. Yeah, didn't work out. And then I went on a year out, and I gened to going to drama school again. It didn't work out. But I I chose Durham principally because of the acting scene. Yeah. I liked the English course, I like the the vibes of the city. But yeah, I I went for the theater, and it's it's incredible. It is a playground. So many things go on at the same time, and incredible people who boost each other up as well, which I think is rare in a lot of student theater scenes. People are you know bitching about other shows, stuff like that. But no, in this, it's so and that was our public service announcement for the Durham drama scene.

[18:48] John Schwab: So Ben, um, you know, try to keep this short and sweet. I would, you know, what I would like to ask you uh two last questions. The first being, you know, as we said before, this show isn't about guys looking for sex. This is so much more than that. When people come in to see this, expectations are not. Um, what would you like people to to kind of get from Cottage? What would you like them to take away as audience members who've experienced this short, powerful, you know, gut punch of a piece?

[19:19] Ben Willows: Hmm. I think I would want them to come away with an appreciation for the connections they have. Because that's ultimately what these two men are searching for, and what they don't have is connections with other people. And maybe they get it in the end, maybe they don't. You'll have to come and see. And also decide for yourself whether they get it. But um, yeah, that's that was the driving impulse, the driving thought throughout my head was the connections that humans want to make with each other. So yeah, I want audiences to come away thinking of that.

[19:54] John Schwab: Yeah, that's a great, great answer. And I think um that's what it I think that's what it ultimately does. It it asks it asked me to kind of search myself and and kind of empathize with someone that that maybe it that I have no ex I have no experience of you know cottaging or to talking to anyone about it, or you know, you it honestly in the 80s and 90s it was a joke, right? And it was it literally was mean, you know. But and then what you what I found fascinating was getting underneath the again the story of two guys going to toilet for sex. That is not what's going on. Like you just talked about the connections. So I was I just I was absolutely blown away, and I think we all were, and congratulations on on the success you had at the at the drama fest. You've a lot of awards were won that evening. Um lastly, Ben, where where can people come and see you? Will you be there? Can people come up and talk to you afterwards and anything else? Just let let me know.

[21:00] Ben Willows: Absolutely. So uh we are going to be at Greenside. Uh it's uh it's in the Olive Studios on Infirmary Street. Uh it is on from the 22nd to the 27th of August, and it's on at 10 past 10. I will be there. I'll uh I won't be there on the very last night, but other than that, I will be there. I will be up for a drink. Are we up for a chat? Um, also, if you're up at the fringe now, can I do a quick shout out to the Shimen?

[21:23] John Schwab: Yes, of course you can, man. Thank you.

[21:25] Ben Willows: I'm just gonna go out later this week. So you yeah, absolutely. Oh, perfect. Well, we are we are here until the 13th. Um, and we're on a um 310. It's called Death of a Disco Dancer, and it's in that same space on Infirmary Street. Um, and uh it's got similar themes to go down uh to Cottage, sorry. It's uh it's queer, it's about people longing for connection, but um it's it's also got a lot of disco and it's like a bad hallucinatory trip. But but illusionary trip doesn't it doesn't have to be bad, bad for the characters. It doesn't have to be bad. I think this one probably edges towards bad.

[22:00] John Schwab: Then listen, congratulations, and I'm glad it's some of the French. I really do want to see uh I want to see Cottage down in London. I think it's a very important piece. I think you the historic themes that are explored, and um and you know, it doesn't matter who is in a play, what characters in a play, it's the writing that really is if somebody can connect with writing, if you can get people to examine themselves and empathize with characters and their situations, then it's a winner. And I think you really have winner, man. I you really do, but I'm uh super super super excited about the journey that it's going to take.

[22:39] Ben Willows: Thank you so much. And I they'll be they'll be performing cottage in 20 years, you know, from now. They will be. I a hundred percent put it out there. We'll go back and listen. When I'm 70 years old, we'll go out. Remember when I said that.

[22:51] John Schwab: Well, I mean, if it if it is, then you will be one of the very first people to have supported it. Uh both both on the panel with or with your feedback, it was which was lovely. And you gave a very good note, actually. Uh a medical note, which uh has made its way into the script. And and yeah, and thank you for this podcast and reaching out. And yeah, yeah, it's just great stuff, man.

[23:09] John Schwab: Great. Listen, I would love to be up there and watch. Unfortunately, I said about I am I would have gone this year. A hundred percent would have gone this year. We are off on a family holiday. And um, you know, going back home to Florida and New Orleans, a bit of a bit of music, you know, and stuff like that. So but uh the boys are gonna see their their grandparents for the first time in three and a half years, and uh it was the only opportunity we had. So um that that almost makes up for missing cottage. I know uh I might be able to forgive. I put Bav's end I we might be able to do it. But um, listen, do go and see Bav, and I'm sure Bav's gonna be up there seeing you and and all the best with it, Ben.

[23:48] Ben Willows: Thank you so much, John. I appreciate it.

[23:55] John Schwab: Ben Willows's there, writer of Cottage, which is playing at this year's Edinburgh Fringe Festival. I'll tell you how to get tickets in just a second. But first, I'd like to thank you for listening. Uh, just a quick reminder to say that if you like this show, or or indeed any of our episodes of Curtin Call Podcast, please go to whichever streaming platform you use and leave a rating and review. It helps others to find this. Uh others like you that may like these kind of podcasts. And and make sure to follow the podcast as well. It really does help. If you want to reach out to us, you can find us on all the socials at curtain call. It's all one word. And you can find me personally at John Schwab, J-O-H-N-S-E-H-W-A-B. Lastly, I'd like to extend a huge thank you to Ben Willows.

All the best, Ben, for your run of cottage. You can catch him uh just for the rest of the week in Death of a Disco Dancer at Greenside until the 13th of August. And also catch Cottage at the same venue from the 22nd to the 27th of August. Get your tickets at edfringe.com. Thank you for listening. Speak soon and stay safe. Bye.