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[0:06] John Schwab: Hi, John Schwab here, and welcome to episode 170 of the Curtain Call Podcast.

[0:12] John Schwab: Curtain Call is the podcast that takes you deep behind the scenes of the theater world, bringing you in-depth conversations with the story makers that are shaping the future of theater.

[0:20] John Schwab: We pull back the curtain to reveal the stories behind the stories and give you a glimpse into the backstage world like no other podcast does.

[0:27] John Schwab: Now for something completely different.

[0:30] John Schwab: This week I am talking to a photographer who really is changing the game when it comes to headshots and self-tapes.

[0:37] John Schwab: And as an actor, I'm constantly needing to update my headshot or my photograph for casting.

[0:42] John Schwab: If you don't know what a headshot is, it's not just something that you do when playing Fortnite.

[0:47] John Schwab: Uh, nothing will piss off a casting director like walking in a door or showing up on a video looking nothing like the photograph that is on your spotlight profile or a resume.

[0:57] John Schwab: It is vital that we represent ourselves in the best light.

[1:00] John Schwab: We also need to make sure our self-tapes stick out from the crowd.

[1:03] John Schwab: More and more theater, television, and films are relying on self-tapes for that initial audition.

[1:08] John Schwab: And with thousands of actors applying for a single role, it's vital to have a professional shine when submitting.

[1:15] John Schwab: So when I came across Charlie Frances and his AKTA photography, that is A-K-T-A, and their model of a pay what you can deal for those who see a professional headshot as pretty much a barrier to entry.

[1:46] John Schwab: Have a listen.

[1:53] John Schwab: Can I ask you just to introduce yourself and then we'll go from there?

[1:58] Charlie Frances: Yeah, of course. So, uh hey, I'm Charlie. My name's Charlie Frances. Um, I'm the founder and director of a company called Akta Photography. We are primarily a headshot photography company. However, we try our best to work in kind of like the career development sort of space as well with actors, particularly actors from low-income backgrounds.

[2:22] Charlie Frances: Um, our company ethos is to stop talented actors slipping through cracks, particularly when those cracks are being caused by kind of financial barriers, that sort of thing.

[2:34] Charlie Frances: So, um, we have four inclusivity initiatives. We've got the pay what you can headshots, the pay what you can show reels, actors that we've just released for the first time this month, we have a spotlight fund and an audition fund, which is coming soon. And we use those initiatives to try and make it a little bit easier for talented actors to access opportunities and the industry as a whole, if that makes sense.

[3:03] Charlie Frances: When I first started out, somebody sent the elevator back down. And look, I have a privileged background, okay. I'm an upper middle class kind of I didn't go to drama school, but I was able to afford university. I went to university. I get it. But somebody sent the elevator back down to me when I first started out, and I think it's absolutely crucial that you send the elevator back down to those who may not have the privileges and the opportunities that I had.

[3:30] Charlie Frances: So I, you know, I take part in the Push Far initiative in the Limit Break. So I mentor people from different economic backgrounds and different socioeconomic levels. People didn't have the opportunities that I had growing up. So for me, it's really important to do that.

[3:50] John Schwab: And it sounds like you, you know, you're doing that too. What got you to that point, Charlie? What made you come up with the business? And then we'll dive into AKTA, which is, I find I've had a really good deep dive, but I, uh, and I'm sure that's not even deep diving, that's just me looking at the website because I'm sure there's so much more. But what brought you to this initiative?

[4:10] Charlie Frances: So it's, you know, there's a couple of different things, I guess. There's like the story of how it actually came about and how it actually happened, but then there's also kind of like, you know, generally my background and that's a kind of big contributing factor as well. You know, you're talking about your kind of upbringing, and I had a quite an interesting social position. And then, um, I grew up with just myself and my mom. My mom's on disability, and we grew up in very, very, very working class areas in the United Kingdom. I'm in Wakefield and West Yorkshire and Stranraer in Southwest Scotland with, you know, absolutely no money at all, you know, really, really tight financial situations.

[4:56] Charlie Frances: But my, you know, similarly, my extended family, I actually come from quite a middle class place, you know. I was born in Gloucestershire and my extended family are, you know, middle class people with varying different degrees of wealth. So while I was growing up in these, you know, very working class communities, I would go and stay at my grandparents in Painswick and Gloucestershire and would have access to kind of how things operated, you know, around money.

[5:27] Charlie Frances: Um, my mom was an artist growing up, but before that she was a social worker. So we always had those two sort of things living side by side, you know, art and social enterprise and these sorts of things. And, um, I think that when, you know, whenever we started this company, that's kind of I guess where it came from wanting to do something creative. I was acting myself within the industry that I love and I've always wanted to be a part of, but you know, it was almost second nature to have that kind of social enterprise side to it given that that's, you know, what my mum and even my nan used to work at writing for the disabled and these sorts of things. It was just a big part of my upbringing.

[5:32] Charlie Frances: So when it came to kind of the actual decision to start this or the accident that caused it really, um, it was simply that I needed new headshots and I didn't have any money. And I heard my flatmate take some for me and I kind of guessed, um, it turned out rightly, I guessed that there'd be a lot of actors in the similar sort of situation after lockdown when the industry was opening up again, um, that would need, you know, to kick start their careers but didn't have the cash to do it. So it all started with a tweet saying that we would do pay what you can headshots for 10 people, um, and I thought no one would apply.

[5:32] John Schwab: If I'm, if I'm, gosh, I can only imagine how many people took you up on that.

[7:02] Charlie Frances: Yeah, we, or just went, please let me be one of the first 10.

[7:06] Charlie Frances: Yeah, exactly. We had 48 people in the first hour apply, and it was like, oh wow.

[7:12] Charlie Frances: Um, so my flatmate and I, we photographed a hundred people in the first month in our living room. Um, and after that, I quit my job. I went and got a studio over in West London and acting, they gave us a studio for free for three months because what we were trying to do was something kind of positive for the industry and these sorts of things. They were very, very, very gracious and generous with us.

[7:39] Charlie Frances: And then by the time that three-month period had finished, you know, we'd photographed a hundred people a month every month, and we had a portfolio on word of mouth had kind of kicked in, and I built a website and we moved studios in. Since then, we've probably photographed about two and a half thousand people. We're currently at 1,820 clients per year, and we've dedicated 25% of all of the available bookings to pay what you can customers because if it weren't for the initiative in the first place, you know, I wouldn't have this company, and, um, and yeah, we want to keep that as a very kind of focal point moving forward.

[8:18] Charlie Frances: Designer things that's something I did and I have on my website as well a pay what you can voice reel, you know, and, um, but I haven't shouted out about it like that. It's just people I've kind of done it that, you know, and maybe you've put me to shame. But I've had some people come to me and say, listen, I can't like listen, what is it? What do you need? We can make it work, we can make it work, we can make something work.

[8:41] Charlie Frances: Because some people, the thing that's stopping them is that they look at the three-digit number, you know, that most people will charge for a headshot and go, well, my headshot's out of date, but I just can't, you know, you gotta get the job to get the headshot to get the reel, to, you know, you gotta spend money to get the reels. There's just a vicious cycle, and I think that that barrier to entry can appear unattainable to people. And I think what you're doing is the Lord's work. Charlie, it's amazing.

[9:14] John Schwab: So, um, I love your tiers. You have the Biffa, the Olivier, the BAFTA, and the Oscar. I love it. Now, having I've been nominated for a Biffa in my time, and that is just yes, absolutely. But I love and I was I saw that and I went, oh I like this. This is a very cool thing. Just because, okay, I'd rather you tell me. I mean, you can listen, you can go to Akta Photography, go see the different tiers. But, um, what kind of drove you to get these two tiers, these four tiers, sorry, and I think it's a fascinating model. I mean, I, I'm having been the developer and founder of a tech website, I love the kind of models that you come up with pricing models. And this one just makes sense to me.

[9:56] John Schwab: And you know, it looks to my eyes and to my logic completely accessible to a bunch of different ranges and allows you to also go through as you become, um, you know, more successful or more ambitious or whatever, so you get the, you know, it allows you to do something per month that is attainable.

[10:19] Charlie Frances: You kind of, um, nudge towards the yourself. There's a couple of things I'll try and kind of go over, but you, you know, you say yourself that you got to get the jobs, and then if you get the job, you get the money, and then if you get the money, you know, you can do more things. Well, you know, that's one of the reasons why the first and most cost-effective option is just for self-tapes because, you know, let's be honest, the thing that we all need is to work, you know.

[10:42] Charlie Frances: Um, basically what we're trying to do, whenever we work with actors, we kind of say, look, let's set the objectives and work backwards. There's something we use called objectives and key results. So you set the objectives and then you set the key results that you're gonna want to kind of check off as you get closer to the objective. Um, we do that in a very entrepreneurial kind of business sort of sense, but we also do it in sense of like what the, um, like ethical objectives of the company are, what the point of the company is.

[11:10] Charlie Frances: So if we're saying, well, what we want to do is we want to stop actors slipping through the cracks, well, then what are the things that we have to do to make that possible to achieve that? And a big part of that is, you know, we're not gonna go out there and say to actors that you don't need to invest in your career, because you do, of course, you know what I mean? You do, yes.

[11:32] Charlie Frances: Absolutely do. Um, you need to invest time, you need to invest money. If you can invest more time, then maybe you can invest less money. If you can be really creative about how you do it, then maybe you can invest less money. If you have loads of money to invest, then maybe that's actually going to be a bit of an issue because it might, it might, you might not have the um need to be particularly creative. So there's a lot of different kinds of um things at play. Um, but what we're trying to do is instead of saying, look, you don't need to invest money, you say you probably do need to invest money, but how can we make that investment as manageable as possible? You know what I mean? And the first thing that came to us was, well, you know, break it down, break it down over a series of months.

Headshots shouldn't be cheap, as far as I'm concerned. They shouldn't be really, really expensive. Like, I mean, you know, if you want to go to a um, if you want to spend a thousand pounds with a particular photographer, then by all means, if you've got the money, right? Cool, cool. Knock yourself out, yeah. Exactly. Um, but you know, it's our photographers, they've all shot for, you know, Vogue and Harper's Bazaar and Document Journal and these amazing magazines, and you know, Barney's been nominated for Portrait of Britain and these, you know. So their time is valuable and um, we're not trying to make it cheaper. Yeah, we're trying to make it more manageable for you to afford. And um, the simplest and easiest way for us to do that is to split the payments over three months, six months, twelve months.

Now, there are complications with that, you know. Sometimes people do, you know, sign up for a 12-month thing, they get the headshots in month one and then they email us going, ah guys, I gotta cancel my membership. And we have to explain to them that it's a, you know, you've committed and you signed then as a 12-month thing, and the things that we can do to help. But generally speaking, that's a very, very, very small percentage of um, our clientele. And I think the thing that we've done that other people don't is that that didn't scare us away, you know what I mean? Yeah, I think that people are terrified that they're gonna get taken advantage of. And actually, the truth is that people are in my experience, um, you know, happy and willing to invest and um, recognize the value of the thing that you're doing, but they just often struggle to have 300, 400, 500 pounds at any one time in the bank account because, yeah, um, you know, particularly at the start of your career, acting can be tough.

So we're kind of putting our faith in our customer base and giving them these options, and um, are delighted to say that that faith, I guess, is being rewarded because like I say, we photograph five people a day, seven days a week, and have two studios and you know, everything's been going really well for the last couple of years.

[14:20] John Schwab: Now we're gonna pause for a quick word from our sponsors.

[14:25] John Schwab: Welcome back to the Curtain Call Podcast. It's not just about when you're starting out. I think that actors need to work on themselves and continue to um, have new headshots, new reels, where you know, if you're gonna do a self-tape, make sure it looks good. Um, you know, and you get out what you put in. I do a lot of um, workshops and things with drama school students, and uh, you know, I tell them, look, if you've got an hour to look at Twitter and Facebook and TikTok, you got an hour to work on yourself. You have an hour to do something that might just promote your career a little bit. And if making that audition, that self-tape look as professional can will make it stand out. Now, is that worth the price of a pint a week to you?

Yeah. If you have one less pint a week, you know, and I'm talking London prices people, you know, it, you know, if it's just that one less pint a week that you're buying and you put that towards aktaphotography.com or something like that, that's you where you're investing in yourself, in your business. And God, it's a tax write-off. You can write this up. Is it a professional expense? You should put that on our website actually. I've not, it is a legitimate business expense. This is something that you're paying every week, uh, every month to do headshots, to do self-tapes and everything else. It's a hundred percent. This is not for pleasure, this is your business. So um, absolutely take it off.

And what I love about your tiers is that the more you get up is that there is a bit of um, you know, you do workshops and you do uh, you do your get a headshot a year now what is a headshot a year worth, you know, to you? And I know what interests me in this is that um, is that you may have a look one year and have a different look the next year, but what you're able to show casting directors and put on IMDB, put on Spotlight is just something different. I would love to get a bit of the feedback that you're getting and can you give me, I don't know, I'm not talking about a success story, but what are kind of say, you know, two or three things that you're getting back to you that is propelling Akta Photography on?

[15:48] Charlie Frances: I can tell you one very, very current one is this evening I'm probably, I'm very excited to go home and put on Secret Invasion and see one of our um, one of our members in Secret Invasion, good friend of mine, amazing in, having filmed the self-tape with me. Um, that is so cool, that's gonna be a special, I haven't seen it yet, so um, it's actually my, it is literally my plan for this evening, and that's gonna be a really proud moment, um, to, you know, my God, he deserves it honestly. Um, Jack is just, just wonderful, one of the most talented people I know and um, you know, I remember I was there when he got the call that he got the job and I was there when we, you know, we filmed the self-tape here in the studio together and um, yeah, that's a really, you know, that's really, that's great, that's so cool when they get it.

[15:48] John Schwab: And then can you be honest with me, Charlie? Did he kind of in the second, yeah, so we got it?

[17:34] Charlie Frances: Yes.

[17:35] John Schwab: And then the next second he went, Oh shit, I've got to do this job.

[17:40] Charlie Frances: Um, Jack's the best. He's, yeah, that's so, you know, we've had a lot, we've had um, film things for Netflix. People have worked on Netflix projects from South Steps. We've done House of the Dragon, uh, HBO, BBC, a lot of different things. But um, yeah, this is one that I'm particularly excited for this evening.

[18:00] John Schwab: And you know, before we wrap it up here, you know, just how approachable are you guys at Akta Photography? What should somebody do if they feel like this is something for them? And then, you know, they may balk at any kind of price or something, or they just have this real desire. Um, would you meet with them? What do they do? What's the first thing they need to do?

[18:24] Charlie Frances: So there's, well, there's a few different things. You know, everybody's different, and um, we try and offer a range of uh options to kind of suit you. You know, if you know what you want, um, okay, so let's say with the pay what you can initiative, um, you don't have to sit in front of anybody, you don't have to explain yourself to anybody, you don't have to jump on a call with me. The photography team and the um, the team that make the um ultimate decisions, they're not the same people. So on the day, nobody knows if you pay what you can or not. Nobody knows who you can use. So if that's you, if you're a little bit like you just, you want to have the session, you don't want anyone to know, cool, great, we've got you.

Um, but if that's not you, if you want to, if you want to, my, you know, my mobile number, my work mobile number is on the website. You can call me anytime. You can DM us on Instagram, you can email us. We're very, very easy to get a hold of. Um, I'm in the studio every single day. So uh, you know, people can call whenever. I get um, plenty of calls regularly about all kinds of different things, and you know, one of the things that we offer is we do free career consultations for any and all of our clients. So whenever you come for headshots or if you join the membership tiers, uh, or you come for a reel or something like that. Um, for an unlimited period of time after the session, as soon as you're a member of the troop, as we call it, um, you can book in a consultation, we can talk about anything to do with your career at any point.

Not to say that we're experts on any part of it, but sometimes you just need somebody that's not your agent to have that conversation with. And we'll jump on Zoom and we'll have that conversation with you whenever you need it. If you're part of the team, then we've got your back, you know.

[20:06] John Schwab: Amazing. Uh Charlie, my last question is when they do make that call and they do get in touch with you and the team and they come in. Um, what can they, uh, your clients, what can they leave knowing? Like what are they gonna get out of it and um, and take forward in their career?

[20:27] Charlie Frances: Um sure. So a couple of things that we um, we hope that people or I think that people feel when they come out of this, um, is a little bit, you know, the stakes aren't so high, nothing none of it's as scary as it feels, you know what I mean? Where a real sense of kind of positivity and a little bit of control. Um, so one of the things that we try and emphasize to people whenever we talk to them is um what it is that they can like action on the day-to-day basis to take a little bit of control back and their and their careers, and then the ability to not worry about the things that they need not worry about. You know what I mean? And the same goes with the headshots. And you know, one of the one of the things I'm very kind of proud of is how lovely all of the members of the team here are.

Um, there's no scary photographers, do you know what I mean? Um, and hopefully, people leave with a real sense of um, of kind of autonomy over their career, and that it's not, nothing's as far away as it feels.

[21:27] John Schwab: That's amazing. Charlie, I'm fascinated. I'm gonna come down and visit you guys. I'm gonna get up to uh, get up there and I'd love to meet you in person and um, and uh, and come see the studios. It's great. And uh, you never know, you might see me on a tier uh, one of these days, you know.

[21:44] Charlie Frances: Well you can do anything, you just let me know, okay.

[21:46] John Schwab: Will do it. Listen, all the best. Thank you so much for what you're doing for everyone and what a great initiative.

[21:52] Charlie Frances: Absolutely. I I'm fascinated. And uh, thanks for joining me.

[21:55] John Schwab: Uh, nice one. Pleasure. Thank you very much for having me.

[22:00] John Schwab: Charlie Frances there from Akta Photography. If you are a performer or know someone who could benefit from a pay what you can headshot and self-tape help, get in touch with Akta Photography through their website, aktaphotography.com. That is aktaphotography.com. I will of course put that link in the show notes.

[22:20] John Schwab: Thank you for listening. But before we go, just a quick reminder to say that if you like this episode, or indeed any of our episodes of the Curtain Call Podcast, please go to whichever streaming platform you use. It does work. Leave a rating and review and pass this podcast on to others. It really helps others like you find the podcast, and it boosts our ratings, which is only a good thing. I like boosted ratings. Why not? If you want to reach out, you can find me on all the socials at John Schwab. That's at J-O-H-N-S-C-H-W-A-B. Thank you for listening. Speak soon and stay safe. Bye.