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[0:00] John Schwab: Hi, John Schwab here, and welcome to Episode 174 of the Curtain Call Podcast. Curtain Call is a podcast that takes you deep behind the scenes of the theatre world, bringing you in-depth conversations with the story makers that are shaping the future of theatre. We pull back the curtain to reveal the stories behind the stories and give you a glimpse into the backstage world like no other podcast does. First of all, a very Happy New Year to all the listeners of this podcast. Your support over the last coming up to eight years now has been incredible. I so appreciate it, as does everybody at the Broadway Podcast Network as well. Secondly, thank you to all who listened to the Christmas episode this year.

It was a gorgeous compilation of readings by some of my best friends, and so many people downloaded it and listened and shared. It was awesome. I thank you all. And thirdly, we will be having many, many more episodes this year as theatre in and around London is back to its pre-pandemic fervor, and I have more time to devote to watching more theatre and chatting to people that make that theatre happen. So stand by for some really, really great content this year. And to kick off 2024 in what seems like a year of non-stop elections, I thought I would do a kind of an episode that was apposite to such. The US presidential elections are going on, the general election here in the UK, as well as the Russian election, if you can actually call it that.

Less of that, the better. Anyway, I watched 1979 at the Finborough Theatre. It is a scathing satire of the Canadian political landscape back in 1979, and carrying on, literally, you learn about what goes on afterwards in the 80s and 90s and modern day. It's a snapshot of the six-month reign of the infuriatingly righteous Prime Minister Joe Clark, nicknamed Joe Who, who, in an effort to not anger anyone, actually ends up angering everyone, and almost kind of in the audience as well. Well, except maybe his wife, Marnie. Anyway, I sat down with the cast and the producer of 1979 on stage at the Finborough, and it was a cold Saturday here in London, so the heater was pumping out some air during some of that chat, and I've used a bit of modern technology to get rid of as much of the sound as possible, but that's kind of what you get on this podcast. We put you into the theatre. We were sitting in the theatre. Anyway, without further ado, here's the team of 1979.

[2:24] John Schwab: This is not me. I don't hear you. You know, because you've been on. Sam and I go way back, I know every one of you. It's very nice to meet you. I have auditioned for you, which I loved. When I saw the cast come out on this, I was like, fuck yeah, that's the cast. It was absolutely correct. It was the right cast, and I was so happy to see your face on there, your face on there, your face on there. Very, very happy. Yeah, because if I didn't see those faces when I came and watched it, Sarah, it wasn't great. I would have had issues. Anyway, so...

[3:11] Sarah Lawrie: We wouldn't be here.

[3:14] John Schwab: So, we'll do a chat, not an interview, but first of all, the boring bits. Can I go around the room from you, Sarah, and please state your name and what you do on the show?

[3:28] Sarah Lawrie: It's called 1979, by the way, but yes. I'm Sarah Lawrie, producer of 1979 for Pratt & Haddock, in association with the New York Persons of Film and Theatre.

[3:43] Joseph May: That was really good. My name is Joseph May. I played Joe Clark in 1979. He was the prime minister.

[3:50] Ian Porter: I'm Ian Porter, and I'm actor A.

[3:54] John Schwab: That's so much more than that.

[3:55] Ian Porter: That's what it is.

[3:56] John Schwab: That's so much more than that.

[3:57] Ian Porter: I'm actor A.

[3:59] John Schwab: Sure, I didn't see actor A.

[4:03] Ian Porter: I play a few other parts, but I'm actor A.

[4:06] John Schwab: But you have a wonderful role of Trudeau.

[4:09] Ian Porter: Pierre Trudeau, and John Crosby, and Flora McDonald, and Jenny Byrne, who doesn't get a name check. She doesn't get a little placard at the end, which I've always wondered about.

[4:25] John Schwab: Yeah, a little bit.

[4:26] Ian Porter: Sorry, moving on.

[4:27] John Schwab: And who are all real people, which is crazy.

[4:29] Samantha Coughlan: And I'm Samantha Coughlan, and I play five people. I think I'm actor B, which is just offensive. No, but strangely, I play Stephen Harper, former prime minister of Canada. I play Brian Mulroney, former prime minister of Canada. You wouldn't expect it. I play Flora McDonald as well, as Ian. We do a crossover. And I play Maureen McTeer, Joe's wife. And who else do I play?

[4:58] Ian Porter: You play Alan Lawrence.

[5:00] Samantha Coughlan: Alan Lawrence. And that's it.

[5:02] Ian Porter: That's it.

[5:03] Samantha Coughlan: Great.

[5:04] John Schwab: Amazing. It's really easy, by the way. It's not confusing. The characters are really well defined, so when you come in, you're not thinking, oh, who is this? It happens very quickly. But my first question has to be Sarah. And Jimmy's not here, who's probably the director, so you get to speak on his behalf. But why 1979 as a Canadian play about politics and policy as we come together? I mean, having watched it, it's not a strange choice. But on the face of it, it may appear to be, which I urge anyone to come watch, but how and why 1979?

[5:46] Sarah Lawrie: Michael Healy has a relationship with FINRA, so this is the fourth of his plays to have their European premiere here. So there's a sort of track record there. There's a relationship. Jimmy first read the play in 2019, so pre-COVID, and it spoke to him then, and he was going to direct it then here. But he's quite, I think he thinks it's serendipitous that actually it's happening now. It feels more resonant and relevant now with what's unfolding internationally and with so many general elections coming up this year. I think there has been, marketing-wise, it's been a challenge because in Canada, it's billed as a hilarious political comedy, and satire really relies upon the audience knowing what is being satirised.

So that's been the challenge. And I think British audiences, it's very palpable for you as well, when you are running the Canadian crowd versus the British crowd, because British audiences need to learn before they can laugh, whereas the Canadian audience have that ready access to the satire. So I think here, whether or not it's received as hilarious by British people or more educational, it's a sort of gentler offering, I think. It would be like me watching Canadian spitting image. I'd be like, well, this sort of seems funny, but I'm not sure...

[7:15] Joseph May: It's a British comedy, universal, but the specificity is missing to make it hilarious.

[7:20] Sarah Lawrie: Yes. But I think the real gift, if you can call Liz Truss a gift, is...

[7:24] Joseph May: Oh, she was a gift.

[7:26] Sarah Lawrie: If you don't want it, you want a gift.

[7:28] Joseph May: You don't want a Christmas gift.

[7:30] Sarah Lawrie: We've been riffing on this idea that history not only repeats itself, but it actually surpasses itself. So in the case of Liz Truss, Joan Clarke's tenure being six months, Liz Truss's tenure being six weeks, British audiences are sort of responding to this as a kind of satirisation of the Liz Truss story as well. Of course, it predates her, because it was written in 2017. But I think the headline in answer, very long answer to your quite short question, is that we're glad it's happening now, not 2019. I think it feels even more... Also about the political machinations, which people have a real understanding about for all the Brexit gamesmanship that happened, like pulling back the votes, dodging stuff like that, which all happens within this. A lot of the plot is to get Joe to use the machinations of Parliament, which he refuses to do. So there is a familiarity, I think, with the British audience with that now.

[8:20] Joseph May: I think, as well, it's very prescient. We talked about this last night. We went for a drink, and saying it's spot on. It's like it's been helicoptered into the situation today. But I think, also, with the 24-hour news cycle, constantly fed BBC updates and CNN updates, and all the...

[8:41] Ian Porter: CBC Fox.

[8:42] Sarah Lawrie: Great British news. People will get the updates constantly. So these little things. It's funny you mentioned projections. There's some projections that go on, and you say it's just so they can divide the audience, like some people like it, some people hate it. I didn't mind them at all. I thought they were quite funny. It's like having little notifications on my phone. That's what it felt like.

[9:06] John Schwab: Oh, that's okay.

[9:07] Sarah Lawrie: So my mind's already attuned to that. So we got the producers' why. That's great. I think that's a good thing. I agree with that reasoning, for sure. Full disclosure, I auditioned for this as well, and I thought it was hilarious. It was funny. I didn't know where that scene came from. My audition scene, I didn't know where it came in, but it opens the show. And so when you start, it's like, oh my God, that's the opening scene? And I was like, I'm strapped in. Buckle up. Here we go. Because you have to. It's straight in.

[9:41] John Schwab: So when you guys read the script and got the script, two of you are Canadians, Sam and Joe are Canadian, and Ian, you're Southern California, which is kind of like Canada of America. So when you first got the script, what were your first... And if you knew about this, the people, I'm sure you did, or at least a little bit. You're not that old. Because it's set in the 80s.

[10:08] Ian Porter: 79.

[10:09] John Schwab: 79. It's an 80 lot, yes. In the title. It's set in the 79. But I was thinking about when you guys were kids. You guys were kids in the 80s. So would you have known about this? And who were those names popped in your head when you first read it? What were your first names?

[10:26] Joseph May: Joe. Joe. Talk to Joe.

[10:27] Joseph May: I knew the names because, yeah, my mom... These guys have heard all this. But my mom knew Joe.

[10:32] Ian Porter: Clark okay and she worked with his brother I knew Joe I met Joe as a kid very young I don't remember and yeah so I didn't know about it because he was also like our local MP so like his history story was there for me it wasn't I don't think a resonant story within Canada he's kind of forgotten about but for me it was a local story so I knew it yeah and also when I read the script I just loved the writing I thought the writing was really sharp and funny and on point I loved it yeah I never heard of Joe Clark which is embarrassing but I never had but his nickname was Joe Who because no one knew who he was but because Joe May is from Alberta so I guess I'd be more like a local story whereas I'm from Vancouver so I hadn't heard of him but the rest of them have.

[11:30] Samantha Coughlan: Yeah well really I think he was he was Prime Minister when I was a kid he was the one he was yeah probably the same thing first Prime Minister you kind of really remember yeah yeah and he was quite a character yeah yeah I'm like Joe Who was sort of yeah faceless yeah exactly but Pierre Trudeau I mean was still in place beautifully it was a very huge figure in Canada and still is to this day you know even though his son Justin is Prime Minister Pierre's figure looms large I think for everybody who knew of him.

[12:05] Joseph May: Yeah other than knowing Pierre Trudeau and knowing that he was a character or he was he was I couldn't have told you any specifics about what he did in policy or what you know things he did or why he was known in the States other than he was a leader for a long time yeah and it was it was really fun because of him and Crosby are such big characters anyway yeah I mean in real life they're big characters and then they're obviously presented as bigger characters in the play but looking up looking up good old YouTube videos and videos of Crosby yeah just him and his big mouth yeah it is phenomenal I mean looking at some of the footage from YouTube do you think these guys were that's real that's a public you think we you know for America like well Trump was our bit first big kind of like loudmouth and say what you want who cares holy crap it's been going on in Canada for decades.

[13:05] Ian Porter: Yeah the High Commissioner's office came and they were like oh yeah like we know these people you guys were like that they knew everybody he said he met everybody so were you able to take let's say our politicians a list last half a decade I recognize so much of the politics and a great thing about this play is the difference between policy and politics I loved that scene with Steve Harper and talking about policy and politics it was great I was you do kind of what I did was taking today's politicians and you know with Trump and DeSantis and you know and the plays the political plays we are now completely two-party system there will never be anything more than two-party system so divided and politically where does anything get done and also the question is you know with a guy who is has all his morals intact he didn't check his integrity at the door he was like I'm gonna do the next right thing and nothing works out this could be the most depressing play were you able to take in your knowledge of today's politicians.

[14:20] Samantha Coughlan: Oh yeah very much that was there was a constant theme for Jimmy I think as well as wasn't it bringing up on the kind of relevance of today yeah and especially kind of the Boris Johnson kind of thing and and also that idea of you put in parking your morals at the door and everything just getting things done so you could do it for your own team and that and that's what's happened there is a total divide and nothing is collaborative anymore and nothing is cooperative and so there is a greater and greater divide and that's the argument that Harper makes and that's how you have power so it's more about so the question now which has become after what 13 14 years of Tory power it's you know it does feel like there's a like we are stuck within this system and then you can easily break it and then you get back into it and nobody ever is working towards the singular goal.

[15:01] Joseph May: Yeah and I think it's fast and did we say like Joe Clark was the Canada's youngest prime minister I'm sorry 39 38 or 39.

[15:19] Ian Porter: Which is I guess like what I have I have which has been a passion of mine over the past recent times of the reality of this sort of darker side of Canada and that that's sort of coming to more of a international knowledge and it here is especially here in the UK of like the reality that it's not just some like strange Mecca of just like happy-go-lucky people but that there is like there are some dark through lines and there were very much especially right now you can feel the far right touching the corners of things and I think Michael Healy has a particular fascination with Stephen Harper who was Prime Minister when I was in the UK so I didn't actually have personally have much experience with him I didn't realize how far right he was I thought he was just a conservative politician but and he is he hated him so much that that's part of the reason why he wrote such a intricate scene at the end of this play to explore more of those ideologies.

[16:36] Samantha Coughlan: I love it he did either the thing is like full full disclosure this never happened but also like how does someone get to that he does become Prime Minister so how does someone get to that point when when he was Prime Minister so short these kind of the view behind the door.

[17:02] Joseph May: Yeah I think we're all kind of used to it because in the UK you've got yes Prime Minister and in the States you got West Wing and I kind of see people have seen pseudo fictionalized versions of it but I think with the like you talking about the news cycle things are just coming out now that people are seeing the real view behind the door and it's exactly what's being portrayed the the policy politicking well I'll do it if you give me something I'll vote for that which is just what it's about now and even the good guy well that's what Stephen Harper says when you agree with him when you don't but even the good guys I say you you if you're in power you call everything policy but actually there's some here you're grasping for power but it's hidden away it's a secret now you're in a dishonest relationship with the people you serve.

[18:01] Ian Porter: He's calling him out or even with yourself yeah yeah you're pretending that you're all good and you're not yeah amazing now we pause for a brief word from our sponsors.

[18:05] Joseph May: Welcome back to the Curtain Call Podcast let's talk about how much you get to go in as performance like you know I love as a performer I love going to watch plays where we talked about last night and swing for the fence every now and then I love being able to just go big like you know kick the door down kind of come in and go yeah and then leave with that character you know I love that because there are people like that around you know and and going back to YouTube videos of Crosby you see these he was larger than life character but but how much fun is it to kind of embrace them and both because Sam and me and you both gender swap as well.

[19:36] Samantha Coughlan: Yeah Sam wasn't me I I don't the the playwright was also he was very generous because he says at the very beginning says these are not impersonations yeah and there was a podcast that he did where he sort of explained the fact that we get introductory name yes flash on the projections he said that's enough if you if you just say that's Flora McDonald and then a actor walks on that's wearing earrings you go oh that's Flora McDonald so you you're given much more freedom to kind of do whatever you sort of feel like doing and I mean the beginning of the Trudeau scene he dances with a chainsaw and I actually says in the script he starts dancing with the front row or with the audience members which is ridiculous and you say talk about you want to dial that up and found that actually I couldn't dial it up very much because I was out of breath to start talking because you've got so much to say yeah there's a lot of that but it's like we did we did that one we did that one crazy speedrun that's where we just turned everything up to 211 yeah and and I was I couldn't breathe that's my experience what about you.

[20:14] Joseph May: Yeah I mean I first characters a man yeah I don't particularly in a suit I don't really play it that much like a man yeah so I think I think we just sort of took a sort of neutral approach to it all and not and didn't make it too much and in each scene we I think we discovered like each scene is a vignette into itself so everything is doing something separate so my first two characters kind of like set up characters and just give you know giving information or setting up the world and then Mulrooney is just like this oh well then there's Joe's wife who's like that's a very that's very real here a real character and very much a scene and there's a lot of love between them and it's there's yeah you know naturalistic and then Mulrooney is just this like ridiculous borderline caricature.

[21:01] Ian Porter: Yeah well as the Canadian High Commissioner deputy said he said he's like oh he must hate Mulrooney.

[21:34] Ian Porter: I've done understudy stuff where you understudy two or three different parts and you have to compartmentalize it and figure out a way of doing it. This is fairly easy. Once you really invest in one sort of vibe, and the two men that I play have such vastly different energies about them. One of them is all scattered and crazed and the other one is slick and smooth. And it's just sort of to sort of ground, because also doing fast changes in between this stuff. And it's sort of like the Trudeau change, I literally like I get my tie and I kind of take a last breath and then you're on the phone saying, oh, is he here? So it's doable, but it's right there. And it's just like to try and kind of like, okay, now he's this, I think octopus and I think that kind of thing.

But you have to kind of really kind of consciously kind of change gears for it. And I love your entrance as Mulrooney because I'm on his flora and I turn around and you're just there just being all slimy. And I give her a slap on the bum. So that gender swapping I think is quite interesting.

[23:06] Ian Porter: I found this super hard, I'm not going to lie to you. I'm not used to this style at all, speaking this quickly. And also after a pandemic, like my brain was just complete mush and I've been in Vancouver auditioning for Hallmark. So it's not like sharp thinking there. So I found it super hard to wake up and like get on board and also different. I've never played this many characters before, not especially men. I play three men and also known people, which is hard. Even the Canadians know who they are. So I found it super hard, but this week I feel like I've found my groove and I feel like I can understand the play, the progression of the play. And also the Stephen Harper people listening probably don't know, the Stephen Harper scene is almost just a play into itself.

The rhythm is totally different and it's almost like a two-hander as Jimmy said at the Royal Court. It's like a two-hander of two people having a discussion. A heavy political discussion. It almost feels like a coda to kind of go, right, all that crap that's just going on, this is what it's about. So it's great.

[24:13] Ian Porter: But Sam, like you're my friend. I would tell you if I didn't know you here. I wouldn't tell you, Joe. Because you'd go home crying. So I mean, listen, we've gone on for about 20 minutes. I'll just kind of keep it short enough. But I'd love the four of you to answer this question as well. And Phoebe's up there in the box. She can shout out something too. What would you like people to get out of the show when they come and see it? So what I got out of the show really was, I felt like an honest portrayal of the behind the scenes, almost Machiavellian machinations of politics and policy. I never really thought about getting voted into power and your second day in power you go, how do I keep it? And what do I have to do? So what would you like people to come away with? And you can have the same answer, it doesn't matter. But it'd be interesting to hear.

[25:09] Joseph May: What I agree with you about that penny dropping. I mean, I did a degree in political science. And when I read the play, I was like, oh, that thing about policy and politics. I'd never, it's so deceptively simple. So I'd like people to come away with that kind of penny dropping and sort of seeing this play as universal themes can speak to anyone. I would also say, speaking on Jimmy's behalf, he really likes this idea of it being a Greek tragedy. And I think it was Alan Bennett, he's quoted this before, but that comedy is a tragedy performed by clowns. So it really has depth. Yes, there are belly laughs, but it really does have depth. And it feels like a play in three acts. You've got the setup, then you've got the problem, the conflict, and then you've got that kind of coda.

And, you know, Joe Clark's demise and downfall, that's not a spoiler. You know it from the start. He's fighting a losing battle. So I think, yeah, people, I would like people to come away feeling educated and entertained.

[26:06] Samantha Coughlan: And a lot of people have mentioned about, we know that Joe Clark lost. We know that he didn't. But so many people have gone, you really want him to win. You really do want him to go, come on, give him a break. Do something, do something, do something. For me, I want people to come out, I've kind of realized, I think by doing it, to kind of question what they want in a politician, I think, you know, and to kind of look at where we are in this kind of divide that's happened. States, Canada are here, this kind of really massive divide, and we've lost that cooperation, which used to be when we were growing up. Was there, still, it was, people did cooperate, they would kind of amend bills to kind of work with each other to kind of make the greater good for the country.

[26:47] Ian Porter: Across the aisle.

[26:47] Samantha Coughlan: Yeah, across the aisle, kind of stuff. And that's been lost. And it's kind of, and though Joe fails, he's attempting it. And so it's kind of nice to kind of think of people maybe walking away going, oh, we could do it, we could do it differently. Not the way that fucking Stephen Harper, excuse the language, does it. But so it doesn't have to be that way. It doesn't have to be just about power. It can be what we actually vote them in for, which is the greater good.

[27:11] Joseph May: I think just, it's great, it's great theater. It's small box theater, and you got three strong actors doing a very strong piece, and you're sitting six feet from them. And that sort of intimacy of theater, I always find is like a little, it feels like a little magic find if you're watching actors that have done four or five weeks of work on something, and you get to see it. And this has this sort of feel. The theater itself is exactly what the office looked like, and it feels like you're just sitting in an office and watching people just rock and roll. I think it's just a good night out. Totally.

[27:57] Samantha Coughlan: Well, because Finborough's so small in a wonderful way, we basically, the audience and us are one. We're all working together pretty much. And yeah, I want people to, I guess, maybe learn a little bit more about Canada and all the different sides of Canada, and that not everything is completely idealistic. And also, I play Stephen Harper, so I stand up for the people, human beings, the human beings that I'm playing. But I think that I find it interesting, what I find so interesting about the final message of the play is actually how someone becomes something. That's really interesting to me and important.

[28:38] Ian Porter: Those are all phenomenal reasons to come. And who would have thought that Canucks could be so conniving with each other?

[28:44] Joseph May: I know, right? You guys are so marriable.

[28:47] Ian Porter: Sorry about that. Human beings, human beings.

[28:50] Samantha Coughlan: But Johnny, we didn't even say, we didn't say at the beginning how we met, that we worked on my very first play.

[28:54] Ian Porter: What? That was my very first play?

[28:58] Samantha Coughlan: In London.

[28:58] Ian Porter: Oh my lord.

[29:06] Samantha Coughlan: Yeah, we were both understudies at the Old Vic for National Anthems. You were understudying Mary Stewart Matheson, who is now my son's godmother. And I understudied, I know, I understudied Kevin Spacey and Stephen Webber. We'll chat about that another time.

[29:23] Ian Porter: Stories from the bar.

[29:26] Samantha Coughlan: And this is, I promise, that's staying in. This is the last question. Would you mind letting people know where you can get tickets, how long it's on, and all that lovely producer stuff?

[29:37] Sarah Lawrie: Great. Well, we run till the 27th. So, the 27th of January, Tuesday to Sunday. So it's at 7.30 every evening. And on Saturdays and Sundays, we have a three o'clock show. No performance in the evening on a Sunday. And via the Finborough. Online, over the phone, via the Finborough box office.

[29:58] John Schwab: Perfect. I'll put everything in the show notes. But everyone, thank you so much. Thank you, John Schwab. It was fun. It was a fun evening, and I'm glad I came to see it. And well done.

[30:11] Ian Porter: And it's only 80 minutes.

[30:13] Joseph May: 75.

[30:16] Ian Porter: On a cold day, if Joe wants to throw Ian in the shit, it's going to be 73 minutes.

[30:23] John Schwab: Phoebe, just shout out and say hi.

[30:27] Phoebe: Hi.

[30:27] John Schwab: That's our stage manager, rock and roll stage manager. She's amazing. So come to the Finborough and see it. Thanks, guys.

[30:31] Ian Porter: Thank you.

[30:32] Samantha Coughlan: Thank you, John.

[30:38] John Schwab: Producer, Sarah Lawrie. Cast members, Joseph May, Samantha Coughlan, and Ian Porter. With a quick hello from stage manager, Phoebe, at the end. All from 1979, currently playing at the Finborough Theatre in West London, and is on for another two weeks as this episode drops. You can follow all their socials at 1979play on Instagram, and the platform formerly known as Twitter. I will put all these links in the show notes, and also for the tickets. But you can head to finboroughtheatre.co.uk. If you find yourself there, you'll find yourself in the right place to get a ticket. And you should get a ticket. Go and see it. It's funny, and prescient, and scary. If you want to reach out to me, you can find me on all the socials, at John Schwab, J-O-H-N-S-C-H-W-A-B. Thank you for listening. Speak soon, and stay safe. Bye.