This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Donnie Betts: Fresh for your ears, tell everybody. The new podcast from the producers of Destination Freedom Black Radio Days comes the Eclectic. Interviews with difference makers, artists, authors, bold thinkers, people we love who get stuff done. We hope you enjoy.

[0:34] Donnie Betts: And as he describes it, being the only Black person in the room. Next, on the Eclectic, the Honorable Judge Gary Jackson. This is Donnie Betts, and this is the podcast, The Eclectic, where we talk to people who, as we say, get things done. And we're honored to have with us the Honorable Judge Gary Jackson. Now, I don't know if the word retired would be the right word for him because he's still doing so many things. But I know what is important that I want to mention first at the top of this. He's the 2021 National Bar Association, Fred Gray Hall of Fame inductee. Okay. That is a big deal in legal circles. And Gary, just explain that award to us for people who don't know. And we're talking to Gary Jackson, who was a judge, an attorney, property owner in Lincoln Hills, which was used to be an all-Black resort.

One of the people that made sure that Cool's Field is as cool as we know it in Denver, Colorado, for the baseball team, the Colorado Rockies. Just everything. He's done some everything. We'll talk about a little bit of that today. This is just our first interview, or hopefully a mini.

[1:49] Gary Jackson: Well, Donnie, thank you very much. And I appreciate you asking me the first question regarding the National Bar Association, because in my career I have received dozens of awards. And for me, being inducted into the National Bar Association Hall of Fame is reaching the top of the mountain in terms of awards. The National Bar Association is a Black institution, and it was formed in 1924, and it was formed because of Jim Crow policies and discriminatory policies in the United States that prevented lawyers and judges from being members of the American Bar Association. So as a result of those types of discriminatory practices, we formed our own national legal organization. And in 1924, when it was formed, it was formed by 12 lawyers. They actually met in Iowa to form it, but it became an organization nationwide where today there may be sixteen thousand Black lawyers and judges from across the nation that are members of the organization.

[3:21] Gary Jackson: Oh wow. And so for me, the Hall of Fame was started in nineteen eighty-six. Okay, and it was named after Fred Gray. Fred Gray was the historic lawyer who represented Martin Luther King during the civil rights days. So when Martin Luther King had a civil rights issue, or if there was a situation where he found himself in jail and needed to go to court, it was Fred Gray who represented him. And Fred Gray is alive today. He is over 90 years of age. He is the first Black president of the Alabama Bar Association, and that occurred probably in the early two thousand. He was selected to be the first Black president of the Alabama Bar Association, and one of the things that he did during his year as president of the Alabama Bar Association, he created a Hall of Fame in Alabama so that Black lawyers and judges in Alabama could be recognized for their accomplishments in the legal field.

So our National Bar Association, which was formed in 1986 and has about 246 members, there are historic figures like Thurgood Marshall, the Honorable Thurgood Marshall that's in the Hall of Fame, of course Fred Gray, Constance Motley Baker, who was the first Black woman federal court judge, William Harold Flowers Sr., who is the father of Sonny Flowers, one of my best friends. He is a lawyer out of Pine Bluff, Arkansas. And he was one of the early presidents of the National Bar Association back in the late 30s, early 40s. So he's a member of the National Bar Association. So it makes me very proud to be selected as a member of that bar association in my 51st year of being a lawyer and judge.

[6:08] Donnie Betts: Well, I can see why you're so honored because that's very esteemed company that you're in. That you just mentioned all those great names and all the great attorneys who are part of that. And you mentioned Fred Gray being still alive. There's a wonderful conversation that he has, believe it was in San Francisco that he gave this talk. That's online now that people can go and take a listen to. And he talked about the forming of the Hall of Fame and also just the work he had done with MLK. So I would suggest our audience grab that. Just Google Fred Gray's name, and I think that's when the first name will come up now. So thank you so much for sharing that information. It's even more in-depth and deeper than I even imagined.

So I know when he was selected to be the president of the Alabama Bar Association, he did a nationwide tour, and he came to Colorado, and Wiley Daniel, our first Black federal court judge here in Colorado, Wiley and I had an opportunity to squire Fred Gray around in 2001 when he was in Colorado. So it's and I having been a member of the National Bar Association since about 1976, I've had an occasion to meet him on various occasions at National Bar Association conventions, which would be held once a year in various cities.

[7:45] Donnie Betts: We're speaking with the Honorable Judge Gary Jackson, who we were just talking about his induction into the National Bar Association, Fred Gray Hall of Fame, and speaking about Fred Gray in particular. But other things that we want to talk about today with Honorable Judge Gary Jackson is just part of his career, like I said, this is our first out of many conversations that we'll have with him. He's held many, many esteemed positions throughout the legal system, you know, from being a district attorney working in the Denver District Attorney Office. He has a BA from the University of Colorado and his JD from the University of Colorado School of Law. And let's talk about that because that's one of the tasks that you have, I don't know, put upon yourself or others to make sure there's more equitable representation at CU Boulder. That's your alum, and you think they're still lagging behind the rest of the country when it comes to representation of Black and brown attorneys.

[8:49] Gary Jackson: Well, that's correct, Donnie. When I went to CU Boulder, it was 1964. I transferred from the University of Redlands to CU Boulder in '64. I graduated from undergrad in 1967 and entered the law school in the fall of 1967. When I entered the law school in my class of 150, there were only three Black attorneys in that class of 150. And the whole school, which would have been about 450 students, there were only four Black law students out of four hundred and fifty in the whole school.

[9:37] Donnie Betts: Good lord.

[9:38] Gary Jackson: So I graduated from CU law school in 1970. So it has been a pledge by me ever since I graduated to do what I could do to expand the opportunities of not only Black students, brown students, Asian students to come to CU law school, but to also for Black professors and staff members. The whole time that I was in the law school, there was not any professor of color at the law school. In fact, during the whole time I was at the law school, there was no women professors. So it has been a goal of mine as well as the Sam Cary Bar Association, which I was one of the founding members in 1971 to try and make more opportunities available in the legal profession including law schools CU and DU for attorneys of color, professors of color, female professors so that's been something that I've worked on for now fifty-one years.

[11:05] Donnie Betts: We appreciate that work because it is work and it's a heavy lifting scenes when it comes to University of Colorado and of course other schools around the country what's exciting what's exciting I don't mean to interrupt you.

[11:05] Gary Jackson: No that's okay.

[11:05] Donnie Betts: Is that this year CU has hired a woman, a Black woman dean to be the dean of CU law school.

[11:27] Gary Jackson: Fantastic.

[11:27] Donnie Betts: So that is a historic step I know I was involved with the hiring of the first Black law professor which would have been sometime in the late seventies.

[11:42] Gary Jackson: Okay.

[11:42] Donnie Betts: And now we've reached the point where we now have our first Black female dean, Dean Buckner, who will be heading up the law school for the coming years.

[11:55] Gary Jackson: Fantastic that is progress, you know. Slow and steady progress as they say, but at least progress. So we appreciate you and appreciate the work. Now you mentioned something a little early in the conversation about organization called the Sam Cary Bar Association and you have received an award from them, the King Tremble Lifetime Achievement Award. Luckily since I am from Colorado I'm familiar with the organization and familiar with King Tremble and that sort of thing. For our audience who may not be familiar with that and not from the area from Colorado. Can you explain what the Sam Cary Bar Association is and who King Tremble was?

[12:32] Gary Jackson: Sure. The Sam Cary Bar Association was founded in 1971 by seven Black attorneys. At that time in 1971, there were approximately 15 Black attorneys in the whole state.

[13:05] Gary Jackson: Uh we were all uh what I would call socially conscious. We were all um had the attitude that uh we wanted to change the dynamics of the law profession here in Colorado. So the seven members, uh, and I'll begin with our very first president, Billy Lewis. Billy Lewis was the very first president of Sam Kerry at the time in 1971, he owned his own uh law building on 1839 York Street. He had uh four or five lawyers that worked in his law firm, of which two were uh white lawyers. So I would have to say that he had one of the first integrated uh law practices. The um an another person that uh was one of the founders would have been Phil Jones. Phil Jones was a law partner of Billy Lewis. Phil Jones uh graduated from C law school uh one year ahead of me.

He was the other black law student that was at the law school. Um he uh like I said, was probably under the age of 30 when uh he became one of the founders of the Sam Kerry Barr Association. Um Billy Lewis has passed away, but Phil Jones is still alive and well. Uh he ended up having a very uh um meaningful uh uh legal experiences because after a few years of private practice with Billy Lewis, he became a lawyer with the U.S. State Department. And so he traveled the world basically representing the U.S. government as a part of the uh of the State Department. The third um gentleman that uh was a member of the uh was one of the founders of the Sam Kerry Bar Association was King Trimble, uh, who Donnie you just mentioned.

King Trimble was uh um in private practice. He had uh come to Colorado for private practice after serving several years as an assistant U.S. attorney in St. Louis. He has passed away, but uh during his legal career, not only having a significant private practice, he served on the Denver City Council. And so he was prominent in uh um being a member of the Denver City Council and being one of the uh uh individuals that represented the citizens of Denver from Northeast Denver. The next member of the Sam Carrie Bar Association was Norm Early. Norm Early and I uh were exactly the same age, 24 years of age. Norm Early had come to Colorado from Washington, DC. He'd gone to law school in um Illinois.

Uh when he came to Colorado in 1970, 1971, he was a legal aid lawyer. And um, as many of your audience will know, he became our first black uh uh Denver District Attorney and served as the Denver District Attorney for about two different terms. The next m member of our next founding member of the Sam Carey uh would have been the Honorable Raymond Dean Jones. Raymond uh went to Harvard Law School. Uh prior to Harvard Law School, he graduated from CC uh in Colorado Springs. He was a Pueblo native and um in uh he uh uh was hired by Dale Tooley to uh be a deputy district attorney. But one of the significant things that he did um once he graduated from law school is that he was the law clerk for uh the chief justice of the Colorado Supreme Court.

So that was his first job out of law school was as a law clerk for the uh Chief Justice of the Colorado Supreme Court. He would have been the very first black law clerk for any uh Supreme Court justice in Colorado. But his um um judicial career included um being on the Denver County Court bench, the Denver County Court bench and being appointed by Governor Romer to be the very first uh uh black uh Court of Appeals judge uh Raymond is uh uh still alive and and well he's now retired and uh then the last uh founding member which is the seventh person uh although I'm describing him as last he was uh uh very very pr prominent uh as a lawyer in Denver uh he was uh hired by Mayor Wellington Webb to be uh his city attorney he served with Wellington Webb for at least two terms as the city attorney in Denver uh Dan Muse also was alive and well and so I've just given you Donnie the uh seven uh founding members of the Sam Kerry Barr association and as you can see uh each of us have distinguished ourselves in uh in a in a very, very prominent way in the legal circles and the judicial circles here in Colorado.

[19:28] Gary Jackson: Uh what's I would say that you all have, and I will say I've had the honor of uh interviewing alm I think almost everyone. Uh at one time I think five of the seven for a um an award ceremony, but the five of the seven got together. Um I can't remember what office we were in, but we were down in City Park or so uh in an office down there in one of the uh uh and doing this interview, so um so I'm glad that I was able to capture that at one time and so I'll share that with you sometime um once uh uh outside of this. Well I re I remember that interview very well, Donnie, and I believe the copy of that interview may be with the Blair Caldwell Library, but uh um Probably if it's not uh I would like I'd like to see uh that interview uh uh um become a part of the archives of the Sam Carey Bar Association at the library.

[20:27] Donnie Betts: Well, you know I can take care of that.

[20:30] Gary Jackson: That would be great.

[20:31] Donnie Betts: That would be great because yeah, Terry Nelson is uh is being uh uh very active in terms of trying to pull together information regarding the Sam Carrie Bar Association because we are now celebrating the fiftieth year of our founding and um uh the reality is is that we are one of the um more prominent uh black uh chapters of the National Bar Association. Uh one of the reasons that we are one of the more prominent ones is that back in nineteen eighty six we formed our own five oh one C three and we have been raising money to provide scholarship to black C U and D U law students since 1986. And I'd have to say that we're probably one of the very few chapters across the nation that has their own foundation uh in which we've raised money.

[21:32] Gary Jackson: That is fantastic. Incredible. We're speaking with the honorable Gary Jackson. Um as I said, the word retired does not fit him, as you just heard, the work he's been doing uh with the foundation and with his fellow colleagues who um I I think you put it very well yourself. You said uh a lot of times you're the only black person in the room. And what you're trying to do with your foundation and what helping with your colleagues and just the work that you're doing with C U and D U and other uh entities is that you're trying to make sure that other people are not the only black person, not the only person of color in the room. And for that we are so so honored and and and proud that you can take care of that and do do that.

I want to ask you something a little bit different, not really different. It goes along. Uh for many years, you have and you work in the criminal cases and so on and so forth. So you spoke about um of course all the the different protests that have gone out over the years, but in particular 2020, and the fact that, you know, people like um George Floyd and Rashid Brooks and Elijah McLean and so forth should be still alive. And a lot of times when um interviews who go into a courtroom, all they see is people that are don't look like them. But those people hold power and sway over their lives. Can you kind of speak about that? How you want to try to eradicate some of that socioeconomic barriers that and educational opportunities for black men and women.

[23:10] Gary Jackson: Yes, Johnny. Um of the reasons that when I left my private law firm after 37 years, that I decided to be a Denver County Court judge rather than a district court judge or an appellate court judge was that I thought that as a county court judge, I would have a greater reach in terms of people. And when I say that, uh traffic cases, uh civil cases in which there's uh a monetary issue of under 25,000, um DUIs, careless driving. Um, you know, these are some of the types of cases that come before a Denver County Court judge. And it was my thought that uh by being a Denver Court County Court judge, I could serve as a role model for for so many people that uh would let uh black people, brown people, poor people know that there are possibilities of being a judge by just seeing me in that position of authority.

[24:55] Gary Jackson: Yes. And when witnesses were called, I can remember the case being a driving under the influence of marijuana, where the uh public defender, uh a black female, used as their expert witness a black doctor from the University of Colorado to come in and come testify. So it's those types of experiences that show the possibilities to others uh and to be able to show uh others that uh we can be equally involved in the legal system. And uh I can remember what a proud moment it was for me because if anybody had walked into that courtroom, uh they would have thought that they were in Atlanta, or they would have thought that maybe they were in New York.

[26:12] Gary Jackson: But they were in Denver, Colorado, and uh would be able to see uh those black individuals um repres uh handling a a legal matter in which I was the judge. So that gives you an example of of um what my efforts have been and one of the reasons why after 37 years of a private practice that I decided to be a county court judge.

[26:51] Donnie Betts: Interesting.

[26:52] Gary Jackson: Yeah. So where you thought you could have the greatest impact, which I think is a powerful, powerful statement. Let me go where I think I am most needed and when I can have the most impact. Where some people would just be looking for that big jump in their careers, you know, after like I said, 37 years having your own law firm. You think, oh, that count Supreme Court justice or whatever the case might be. What let me just ask you, we have about three and a half minutes left in this particular time. What does it take to be a judge? What what what happens, what steps are necessary to uh to get on the bench in that black robe?

[27:31] Gary Jackson: Well, the reality is is that uh you have to be a lawyer, and uh depending upon the jurisdiction um and the nature of the type of judge, uh typically it's a person that has had five years of some type of legal experience. Okay. So um, and and that legal experience could be um a variety of experience, whether you're in private practice, you're a prosecutor, you're a public defender, or you're a corporate lawyer, or a uh law professor. Uh there is no particular uh requirement as to the nature of of your prior practice before applying to be a uh judge. Now in Denver for the Denver County Court, there is a nominating commission of seven people that will nominate three names uh to go to the mayor, and the mayor makes the final decision as to who is uh a Denver County Court judge.

As to all other statewide judges, uh on the county court, district court, appellate court level, there are nominating commissions in 23 judicial districts that will select three names and send it to the governor. And then the governor selects the person that will be a judge, let's say, in Pueblo County or El Paso County, or Weld County, or uh Denver County Court, or the appellate courts, or the Supreme Court. So uh that is the uh the criteria is being a lawyer, having five years of legal experience, and then uh going through the uh selection and nominating process with the judicial nominating commissions, and then either the mayor or the governor making the final selection.

[29:39] Donnie Betts: Thank you so much for sharing it. A lot of people just don't know what the process is. Let me let me ask you this, and we're gonna ask you again when we have our next interview, and this one will be on camera, but this one I want to get for this particular podcast. I'm doing a film uh called Stop Resisting. It's really about uh lack of transparency, um qualified immunity and a use of force in America by uh law enforcement and others. What do you think people have said district attorneys have too much power in this country? What is your thoughts on that? Because you know, they they can they can break or break a case, they can bring a case to the court, they can talk about what kind of sentence should be weighed laid down, if a police officer should should be charged, if um if they quote unquote victim should be charged. What are your thoughts on that?

[30:45] Gary Jackson: Well, you know, my m my philosophy ever since I started being a lawyer was um I wanted to be an insider. I wanted to be in that room, I wanted to be the person making that decision. And so um uh as you know, Donnie, and as we've talked about, I started off as a deputy uh uh district attorney in Denver.

[31:14] Donnie Betts: Yes.

[31:15] Gary Jackson: I I rose to the level of a chief trial deputy uh in Denver, and then I went over to the US attorney's office and I was an assistant US attorney uh for the district of Colorado. So I was involved with um um being the person in the room making those decisions. And I think it's important for people of color to be in positions of power to be making the decisions that are affecting the the lives of uh of our of our citizenry. Um the case I like to talk about is the Minnesota case, the Chalvin case. Donnie, I know you're aware that the top prosecutor in that case was black. Yes. He was the attorney general for Minnesota. Their top in trial prosecutor was Jerry Blackwell. He's black. Yes. They recruited him from private practice to be the lead prosecutor in that case.

In my opinion, that made a difference in terms of the success of that case, because you had uh black people in positions of power making a decision on what witnesses were going to be called, uh interviewing those witnesses, uh, doing the direct and cross-examination of those witnesses, and uh uh persuading certain witnesses to testify within the police and investigative field where oftentimes uh that blue wall has prevented certain officers um uh uh from testifying in cases against other officers. To me, um, and I was prideful because having been a prosecutor myself, I know that uh it's important to be making those decisions, whether it's a decision to prosecute someone a decision to determine that there is not sufficient evidence to prosecute someone uh to be a judge who's making the decision if it's a criminal case is the person going to get probation or does the person go to jail or if it's a civil case or a divorce case um how uh child support is going to be divided up uh um between a uh husband and wife or alimony because we have black people I don't like to just talk about the criminal area Donnie because we have black people that go into divorce courts we have black people that go into probate court when uh when they've died and and property is to be distributed we have black people going into civil court on personal injury cases I think in each of those circumstances um there would be a higher level of trust and confidence if there were people of color that are the deciding officials the judges so that's where I come back in terms of my philosophy of being uh a decision maker uh my philosophy of being um um a person that is an insider uh so my and so I've been an insider uh for fifty one years.

I and I include having my own law firm for thirty seven years as being an insider. In other words, I was deciding who was uh uh going to be the lawyer in my law firm. I wasn't the employee of of someone else. So uh that's that's my philosophy, Donnie.

[35:24] Gary Jackson: And uh in terms of being an insider and a person that is making the decisions, which uh um as you stated uh I was one of the attorneys, one of the trial attorneys that acquired the property to do to build Coors Field. So where the Rockies are playing um I uh was intimately involved in acquiring that property to build Coors Field and that's a you know that's a public stadium where people of all color can come to recreate and uh yeah enjoy baseball and so uh that's a source of pride for me being an an insider in that public effort.

[36:11] Donnie Betts: I think that you've laid it out so eloquently about having a seat at the table and as people always say and it's always at it but it's an added always correct. You know if we have a seat at the table we can help make those hard decisions and sometimes those right decisions that will impact lies not only now in the present when you're in that courtroom but forever uh in some cases impact a person's life as they go into the future or if they have a future it can go a either way. So I appreciate you sharing that um that information how you how you came about that decision, how you wanted to live your life. You wanted to be on the insider. I think that's fantastic. We so appreciate that.

[36:54] Gary Jackson: For this session, we're gonna end it there 'cause I think that's a great place to end it. About how your philosophy is to be on the insider. We've talked about how your philosophy is, how you hope to impact those next generation of young legal minds to have an impact on these as we talk about lives as they go into the future. I hope that we can you would join us again, not only here, but like I said, in a sit-down face-to-face um video interview as well, too.

[37:27] Gary Jackson: Yes. I I couldn't be more happy. We've uh done everything from uh this interview to putting on uh performances up in Lincoln Hills, which is uh important historically for uh black people and for uh our uh uh our various communities, these the importance of what happened in Lincoln Hills. So I'll look forward to talking about that sometime.

[37:54] Donnie Betts: Absolutely. That'll be our next conversation. We'll start with that, you know, and we and I definitely want to talk about you know your beautiful marriage to Regina for so many years and that uh relationship. We talked about uh how those bonds between individuals and a great team, I think you guys are. So we'll talk about that next time as well.

[38:14] Gary Jackson: Okay. Sounds good, Donnie.

[38:16] Donnie Betts: All right. Thank you much.

[38:17] Gary Jackson: Thank you so much. I'll be in touch.

[38:19] Donnie Betts: Okay, thank you for listening to The Eclectic.

[38:26] Donnie Betts: The Eclectic is produced by Donny O'Benz and No Credits Productions LLC. The series is remixed by Maureen Smith, aka Reese. Please subscribe to our podcasts at Spotify, Radio Public, Hot Tunes, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcast. Follow us on Facebook at No Credits Productions LLC.com, Instagram, on Twitter at Donnie Betts, or The Eclectic The Podcast. I'm your host and producer, Donnie Betts.