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[0:04] Donnie L. Betts: Fresh for your years, tell everybody. It's the new podcast from the producers of Destination Freedom Black Radio Days. Produced and hosted by Donnie O'Bec of No Credits Productions comes The Eclectic. Interviews with difference makers, artists, authors, bold thinkers, people we love who get stuff done. We are so honored to have as our guest, Rutha Mae Harris.

[0:24] Donnie L. Betts: Rutha Mae Harris, my goodness, what can we say about her? She was one of the original Freedom Singers that traveled the country to raise funds for the civil rights movement. Pete Seeger reached out to Cornell Reagan when he heard about this group, and he felt that the power of the music would move people to relate to the movement even more so. We want to talk about all the things that you've done in your life, which is just, I don't know if we have enough time in this broadcast to do all that. So we're gonna start the way my mentor, Dr. Vincent Harding, who I know you knew, um, used to do his interviews. Tell us your full name, your mama's name, and your mama's mama's name, and where you spent your childhood.

[1:14] Rutha Mae Harris: My name is Rutha Mae Harris. My mother's name is Katie B. Harris, and my mother's mother's name is Sally Douglas.

[1:28] Rutha Mae Harris: And what did you spend your childhood? I spent my childhood here in Albany, Georgia. I was born in the house that I live in. I was born on November 27, 1940, at 623 Whitney Avenue, Albany, Georgia. I am still living in the house that I was born, and I am now 82 years old.

[1:52] Donnie L. Betts: Wow, that's incredible. That is absolutely incredible. Now, your father, uh, let's talk a little bit about your father. Your father was a minister and also an activist himself. So let's talk about him a little bit, if you would.

[2:05] Rutha Mae Harris: Reverend Isaiah Andrew Harris is his name. And he was a pastor, carpenter, brick mason, a mason. He was just a man of all trades. He built the house that I live in. He built his house in 1932. He was the pastor of, uh, at one point before I was born at Montzion Baptist Church, where the old museum was housed, and that's where we have the Albany Civil Rights Museum Institute. Um, and he was one who stood on his own laurels. He didn't let us.

[3:04] Rutha Mae Harris: And in this house, there's a bedroom, and in this house there's a TV. So there's no need for you to go anywhere. Yeah. So he sheltered us from all of that. He passed away in 1951. I was 10 years old when he passed away. But he had laid the foundation for you, I think.

[3:27] Rutha Mae Harris: Yes. Yes. Yeah. He was well respected by the whites in Albany, Georgia. He stood his ground. He didn't take any gruff, as we used to say.

[3:41] Donnie L. Betts: Now then, uh, later in your life, um, not too long after that, after high school, you went off to college. Um, can you talk a little bit about that?

[3:53] Rutha Mae Harris: Well, that's a long, long story about my college career. Yes. I graduated from Monroe Comprehensive High School. Well, it was Monroe High School in 1958. And in 1958, 59, I went to Dillard University. Well, my mom wanted me to be a nurse. I didn't want to be a nurse. You know, you had to do what your mama said. Right. So okay, I went on out to Dillard. I spent a whole year done it at Dillard. And I didn't go to any classes pertaining to nursing.

[4:42] Rutha Mae Harris: So I spent a whole year out there. She lost a lot of money on me. But she had to take more. So I stayed the whole year, and at the end of the year she got a letter from Dillard saying, "Ms. Harris, I don't think Ruth is ready for college, so she needs to stay out a year." Okay, so in 1960, I enrolled at Florida A&M University in music. And I completed that year. That's my college career from for right now.

[5:19] Rutha Mae Harris: Right, right. So, um, and then in 1961 is when I became involved in the civil rights movement. And that was your major part of your education there was the movement.

[5:34] Rutha Mae Harris: Yeah. Now where? That that's what I would describe it. Now your education, you were also educating others.

[5:45] Rutha Mae Harris: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So for me, it seemed like you had a call. Um, and let's talk more. People, a lot of people will talk about, and they know what happened during the um the Atlanta years and things like that in Mobile and Memphis and so on and so forth. But let's talk about the Albany movement, which you were definitely deeply involved in.

[6:08] Rutha Mae Harris: Yes, I, um, during 1961, I came home for the summer from Florida A&M. And of course, I was walking down the street. The Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee was already here in Albany, Georgia.

[6:23] Rutha Mae Harris: Snake for sure. Right. And of course, I was walking down the street one day, and I was approached by either Cordell or um Charles Sherrod asking me if I wanted to be free. I said, "What do you mean if I want to be free? I am free." But I thought I was free.

[6:41] Rutha Mae Harris: Yes. So I started um attending the mass meetings and working in the Board of Registration. And of course, we had what we call the citizenship school. And there was this 90-year-old man who was in my class, and he had never written his name, and he never voted. So I taught him to write his name at 90 years old.

[7:09] Donnie L. Betts: Wow.

[7:10] Rutha Mae Harris: And upon him learning how to write his name, I carried him down to uh register to vote. And that was my highlight of my participation in voter registration.

[7:21] Donnie L. Betts: Wow. Wow, I guess so. That's incredible.

[7:25] Rutha Mae Harris: So during the um mass meetings, we were singing, and of course, my voice was heard, and I was chosen as one of the original Freedom Singers. And that's how I became one of the original Freedom Singers. And this group traveled 50,000 plus miles in nine months, telling the story of the civil rights movement through song, covering 46 states. And at that time there were only 48 states.

[7:54] Rutha Mae Harris: And the reason why we didn't get to those two states, which was Washington and Oregon, I became tired. And I told them that I had promised my mom that I would finish my college career. And I came back home, and that's what I did. I enrolled at Albany State, and I finished Albany State in 1970.

[8:18] Rutha Mae Harris: Now the members of the group were yourself, uh, Beatrice Johnson Reagan, Cordell Reagan, and um, Charles Niblett.

[8:26] Donnie L. Betts: That's correct.

[8:27] Rutha Mae Harris: Yeah. And um, you said that's a lot of miles to be traveling.

[8:32] Rutha Mae Harris: 50,000 plus.

[8:33] Donnie L. Betts: Wow. Tell me again at during the interim, we were out in California and we got the call to come to the March on Washington to sing.

[9:22] Donnie L. Betts: Now, you were what, 22 years old?

[9:25] Rutha Mae Harris: Uh, in the March? Uh, I was at that, in '63, I was 23.

[9:30] Donnie L. Betts: Yeah, 23 years old. And there you are on that stage with probably um a quarter million people, 250,000 people looking at you and looking at the group. Uh, were you nervous at all?

[9:41] Rutha Mae Harris: It's August of 1963. You know, I've never been nervous. Even when I was a little girl, I sang solos. I did my first solo at my dad's church, but I did my first solo in junior high school. And I even remember the song I did. I love life and I want to live.

[10:03] Donnie L. Betts: Yeah.

[10:04] Rutha Mae Harris: I've been singing since I was six years old.

[10:06] Donnie L. Betts: Gotcha. Okay. All right.

[10:09] Rutha Mae Harris: I've never been nervous. That's my gift that the Lord gave me, so I guess that's why. I just never been nervous.

[10:17] Donnie L. Betts: What else do you remember about that, uh, about that time, about that day?

[10:22] Rutha Mae Harris: Uh, in August 1963. Yes, March on Washington. Um, it was so many people there. And how we got to the march in Washington, Harry Belafonte chartered the plane. And uh, we were one members of that plane. And we had our own space, and we practiced what we were gonna do when we got to the march on Washington.

[10:47] Rutha Mae Harris: But it was movie stars and just all on the plane. So we were surrounded by celebrities. So we get to the march on Washington, and we're dropped off. And we go up the steps of the Lincoln Memorial and go wherever our space was.

[11:17] Rutha Mae Harris: So we were talking and uh, Mary was saying, "I don't think we're gonna get a chance to sing." I said, "Weren't you invited?" She said, "Yeah." I said, "Well, if you went back, you couldn't get to sing." She was crying. I said, "Why are you crying?" I went to her and asked why she was crying, because she thought they weren't going to get a chance to sing.

[11:37] Rutha Mae Harris: But anyway, um, and then she passed away, and uh, I was given a call to come and sing at her memorial.

[12:27] Rutha Mae Harris: And we, so after the March on Washington, you had said too that you were tired, but you also said if it wasn't for the music, you don't think the personal belief is without the music that wouldn't have been a movement.

[13:02] Rutha Mae Harris: Because the music kept us from being afraid. And you know, if you and you know if you're going to get hit or something, and the policeman has these billy clubs and their dogs. We start singing a song. And sometimes there are some policemen who have a heart. And we saw quite a few of them drop the billy clubs.

[13:38] Rutha Mae Harris: Here in Albany, Georgia. Yeah, I don't, I was arrested three times, and I spent a total of 14 days in jail. Never wanted to come out, but my mom said you should come.

[13:55] Donnie L. Betts: I got it. I got it. Beautiful. Beautiful.

[13:57] Rutha Mae Harris: Yeah. Now one of the songs you guys are very famous for was, uh, one we're gonna play for just a second is "Woke Up This Morning."

[15:13] Rutha Mae Harris: So the group was famous for changing the lyrics to songs. Woke up this morning, my mind stayed on Jesus. Woke up this morning, my mind stayed on freedom. Right. That's how the song, that's how the freedom songs are made, you know. Um, you just changed the lyrics. I love it. And some songs you didn't have to change it, even like this is a light of mine. You didn't have to change the lyrics, you just add lyrics. Right, okay, okay. And we did songs, rhythm and blues, uh, all genre music. Reaching the soul. Change the lyrics. And um, you work with people like, like I said, um, uh, Sydney Poitier, Harry Belafonte, Bob Dylan, uh, Pete Seeger, Peter, Paul and Mary. Uh, he marched with uh Dr. King. Yes.

[16:02] Donnie L. Betts: And let's talk about also after was this during the time that you were part of the Freedom Singers that you and were part of also Sweet Honey and the Rock. Was that did that cross over or did it separate?

[16:15] Rutha Mae Harris: I've never been a part of Sweet Honey and the Rock. Okay, okay. Most people thought I was because of Bernice. Right, right. But everybody thought that I sang with them. But I was not a member of Sweet Honey and the Rock. Okay. I sang when they came to Albany, Georgia, to do a show, and I was asked to come up and sing, and I did Amazing Grace. And then um, the mics went out. Right. So that engineer said that's not a voice. That's a force of nature. That's right. I was gonna say, I don't remember you ever needing the mic, so in a large space, I need a mic, but you know, I didn't need one that day where they had them say beautiful. Yeah, voice and nature, I like that. And every time they saw me, he would say, Hey, force of nature. I love it.

[17:19] Rutha Mae Harris: So you you're still very active today, uh in the movement. Um tell me what you see the changes you've seen, positive and or negative, uh, since those days, say from 1963 on.

[17:37] Rutha Mae Harris: Well, changes started when uh Donald Trump became president. When he became president, everything started going downhill. And we are a little stuck right now. So backwards, not forward. It wasn't forward. And uh we still stuck. And people are saying that um Joe Biden is too old, but he needs to be given another chance so that he can complete what he started. Right, right. And that people just got to get out and vote this time again and vote for him. If they don't vote for him, Trump will come back up in there, even with all the charges that he has against him. That man shouldn't even be walking free. It seemed like uh nothing sticks. He should be under the prison. Yeah, you spend more time in jail than he ever has. And all the people with him has been in jail. Interesting, huh? And he didn't care about anybody but himself.

[18:54] Donnie L. Betts: Go.

[18:55] Rutha Mae Harris: There you go. He doesn't even care about anybody. Now let's let's talk a little bit.

[19:00] Donnie L. Betts: Yeah.

[19:01] Rutha Mae Harris: We that could be a subject for another time. So yeah, yes. He's made it truly painful for people living in America. Which is division that's that has happened, you know. Yeah. So it's so sad. But but this too should pass. That's right. That's right. Now I think it's left up to us to make it pass. What do you think that also the movement today needs? I know the force of nature that you were and the music brought everybody together in those days. Is that what's missing today? You think music?

[19:34] Rutha Mae Harris: That's what's missing. You remember the um Black Lives Matter movement? Yes. Still had to be. Did you did you hear any songs? You know what? You're absolutely right. You know, just them just the chanting that was done in the streets, but not real songs like you guys were performing. You've got to have music. Music. Music is very important. I keep telling people. Gotta have gotta have them freedom songs. And they don't get too old. That's right. That's right. Well that's what I still I still sing them today. Um and I've organized a group of young people from the age um seven to high school.

[20:21] Donnie L. Betts: Beautiful.

[20:23] Rutha Mae Harris: That was gonna be my question. Are you working with young people to to have them move the music forward? Yeah, and uh, but I haven't worked with them since since the um COVID. Right. Um but I'm gonna get it back started. But they keep asking me, so I'm trying to wait till the museum gets a little more stable. Yes. Right now, it's unstable, but I'm gonna bring them back. Perfect. Perfect. Yeah, yeah. I can't I can't wait.

[20:56] Rutha Mae Harris: That was a statement I think you made and others have made too. Like, uh tell me about this statement. They can't arrest us all.

[21:01] Rutha Mae Harris: They can't arrest us all. But there's too many of us. They can put us some in jail. We still got we still got people coming. And it was young people who led the movement too. Yes, it was young people who know those are the unsung heroes that never get noticed. Martin Luther King didn't do it by himself. Right, right. It took all of us. That's right. And he learned everything he needed to know right here in Albany, Georgia.

[21:39] Donnie L. Betts: For the other movements. Explain that to me.

[21:42] Rutha Mae Harris: This was where his learning. His learning took place here in Albany, Georgia. Yeah, explain that to the audience. How to strategize for the upcoming movements. Because some people said the Albany movement was a failure, but that's not what he said. He said he failed in Albany, Georgia.

[22:07] Donnie L. Betts: Oh, okay. Yeah.

[22:08] Rutha Mae Harris: Yeah. Because it's it's a different kind of animal there, but I say you learn how to strategize.

[22:16] Donnie L. Betts: Yeah.

[22:18] Rutha Mae Harris: Yep. So who were the other people there besides uh the group uh Freedom Singers that were involved in Albany movement?

[22:29] Rutha Mae Harris: Oh, it was uh Smith, uh S L S C L COR, Jewish, everybody. Everybody came to Albany, Georgia during that time. So yeah, you had a lot of people in the freedom, and you also took part in Freedom Summer, is that correct or no?

[22:53] Rutha Mae Harris: Freedom Summer was in um Mississippi, but I wasn't a part of that. Okay. Okay. Beautiful. What would you want what do you want people to know right now? What do you want them to? I know you said for them to get out and vote and make sure their voices are heard. That's that's the most important thing that we need right now.

[23:13] Rutha Mae Harris: Okay. Is to get out the vote. Get out the vote. That's what we need right now, most of all. So that we can go back so that we can um go back to where we were before Donald Trump.

[23:31] Donnie L. Betts: So I'm I'm throw out some names to you.

[23:35] Rutha Mae Harris: Okay.

[23:36] Donnie L. Betts: Um what about Charles Jones?

[23:39] Rutha Mae Harris: Charles Jones, yes.

[23:40] Donnie L. Betts: Okay. Doris Latiner.

[23:42] Rutha Mae Harris: Doris Latner.

[23:44] Donnie L. Betts: Okay. Uh Bernard Lafayette?

[23:47] Rutha Mae Harris: Yes.

[23:48] Donnie L. Betts: Okay. Was James Lawson involved?

[23:52] Rutha Mae Harris: Yes.

[23:53] Donnie L. Betts: Okay. Tell me about um those individuals.

[23:56] Rutha Mae Harris: Chuck Purdue, um, I'm not sure if Bob Moses was. Um, but I know. Bob Moses was uh was the um the mathematician.

[24:07] Donnie L. Betts: Oh yes of Mississippi. Genius, yes.

[24:10] Rutha Mae Harris: Yeah, absolutely. Yes. Mm-hmm. The algebra project, yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. That's who Bob Moses was. Okay. Uh yeah, he was such an humble person. Soft spoken. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Beautiful. Beautiful individuals. Ruby Sales.

[24:29] Rutha Mae Harris: Ruby Sales, yes. Yeah. But yeah, I just want to throw some names out there, and you know, if you want to comment about each one of them and how they were involved with the Holman movement and um uh those they weren't those those names. Um I'm trying to remember. I know that um Connie Curry, Connie Curry.

[24:52] Rutha Mae Harris: Right? Yeah, she did. I think she came to Albany. Okay, all right. And John was involved, right?

[24:59] Donnie L. Betts: John Purdue.

[25:00] Rutha Mae Harris: Yeah, of course. Yes, yes. Yes.

[25:07] Rutha Mae Harris: Yeah, in America's his most of his stuff was done in America. Right, right. Yeah. Uh tell me about that. How how did you get involved with that um play uh about him?

[25:22] Rutha Mae Harris: Well, uh a playwright named Curtis Williams wrote the play, and um he asked me to sing uh the Freedom Songs in the play. That's how I was involved with that. Okay, beautiful. I'm glad you were.

[25:36] Donnie L. Betts: Mm-hmm. Because that way we got a chance to meet.

[25:40] Rutha Mae Harris: Yeah. I produced a play here in Colorado. Right, right. Beautiful. So everything happens for a reason.

[25:49] Rutha Mae Harris: Yes, everything happens for a reason. Right, beautiful. Yeah, I've had um I had the privilege of uh singing at um Ketanji Brown Jackson's um investiture, along with um Patrick London Ministries. So at at the uh at her investiture.

[26:12] Donnie L. Betts: Wow, wow of doing that, and um there on my name is on two buildings here in Albany, Georgia. One is at the Job Course Center, on a uh the women's dorm, and at my high school, it's um it's named uh Rutha Mae Harris, performing arts theater.

[26:36] Rutha Mae Harris: Wow.

[26:38] Rutha Mae Harris: Yeah. So I'm gonna send you those pictures so you can see them.

[26:44] Donnie L. Betts: Please do. And I'm so glad you're getting your flowers down.

[26:49] Rutha Mae Harris: Why I can smell them. So every time somebody has something at the at the school, they think that I'm a part of it. Not Rutha Mae Harris. I try to love them. But they think, are you performing? No.

[27:14] Donnie L. Betts: Well, they'll still get people in the door though.

[27:18] Rutha Mae Harris: For the young people who are doing their thing. Well, it's been an absolute joy. Thank you so much for giving me a few minutes of your time.

[27:27] Rutha Mae Harris: Oh now, you know I wouldn't have turned you down. No, thank you so much. We're so glad to hear from you.

[27:35] Donnie L. Betts: Yeah, well so good to have you up there.

[27:37] Rutha Mae Harris: Yeah, it's been way too long, way too long.

[27:39] Donnie L. Betts: Okay, dear.

[27:41] Rutha Mae Harris: All right. We'll talk soon.

[27:43] Donnie L. Betts: All right, thank you.

[27:44] Rutha Mae Harris: All right, take care.

[27:46] Donnie L. Betts: You too.

[27:47] Rutha Mae Harris: Bye-bye.

[28:05] Donnie L. Betts: I'm Donnie Betts, and this is the Eclectic. It's produced by Donnie O. Betts and no crush, but that's all I see. If you're listening to the Eclectic, the series and mixed by Maurice Smith, aka Reese. Please subscribe to our podcast or Spotify, Radio Public, iTunes, Stitches, or wherever you get your podcast. Follow us on Facebook at No Credits Productions LLC dot com, Instagram, on Twitter at Donnie Betts, or at The Eclectic the Podcast. I'm Donnie Betts. Talk to you soon.