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[0:00] Andrew Child: Here she is, boys! Here she is, WOULD! Here's Rose Card Night. I'm Andrew Child, and welcome to Fifty Key Stage Musicals: The Podcast, a companion piece to the Routledge Press publication Fifty Key Stage Musicals, which is available for purchase by going to Routledge.com or clicking the link below in today's show description.

[0:32] Andrew Child: Today's episode focuses on chapter 16, Gypsy. And with us today is the author of that chapter, Professor Robert W. Schneider. Professor Schneider holds academic appointments at Penn State University, New York Film Academy, and the University of Mount Union. He is the artistic director of the J2 Spotlight Musical Theater Company, original programming producer at Feinstein's/54 Below, as well as the host of the podcast Behind the Curtain: Broadway's Living Legends, Gay Card Revoked, and This Was a Thing. He is also the co-author of Fifty Key Stage Musicals. Rob, how are you doing today?

[1:14] Robert W. Schneider: I'm doing great, Andrew. Thank you for asking. I'm so excited. We're talking about my favorite musical of all time.

[1:22] Andrew Child: We are also talking about my favorite musical of all time. I really love Gypsy, and I can't wait to dive into this with you. Can you start just telling us why it was selected to be in this book? What makes it a key musical?

[1:35] Robert W. Schneider: You know, there's two reasons why we selected it for this book. We could have gone with any one of these two reasons, I think. First of all, it really makes the libretto adult. It takes the libretto of musical theater and moves it to a much higher level in terms of structure, in terms of content, in terms of character, in terms of dialogue. That's number one. If we didn't even want to go on that route, I think that the character of Mama Rose is probably the most three-dimensional psychologically complex character in American musical theater up until that moment. I think up until that moment, we'd had nice characters and interesting characters, but there really wasn't that much to them. Even characters from the Rodgers and Hammerstein mold, now today, through revisionist revivals and stuff, we add certain things to them.

But I feel a lot of those times we're adding things that are not really there. The script of Gypsy allows the Mama Rose character to explore 90 million different avenues of how to play that, but it's all based in the text. You don't need some director coming in to layer on a concept. It's all there in the text. So either Mama Rose as a psychologically complex character protagonist or the fact that the libretto moves light years ahead of where librettos had been previously.

[3:01] Andrew Child: Okay. And in the chapter, you focus a lot. You're talking about the subtext with the Mama Rose character being one of the key elements that makes this libretto so excellent. So I'd love to sort of hear your thoughts on Arthur Laurents when he talks about writing this book. He talks about this being stepping away from the idea of musical comedy, that this is the first musical theater. Do you think that that is an accurate statement that he's obviously making about his own work?

[3:39] Robert W. Schneider: And if anyone loves talking about his work, it's Arthur Laurents. Yeah, I would agree with him. I mean, I would absolutely agree with him. There is such a psychological complexity and subtext to these characters that it just elevates itself into a whole new genre of musical theater. So, yes, I would absolutely agree with him on that point.

[4:01] Andrew Child: And you also talk about in the chapter a specific portion of the script. Did you want to just sort of summarize that for listeners who haven't read the book yet?

[4:14] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, sure. The ending of the show or the small world section. That's it. I was thinking about the small world section. Sure. And I think, you know, when we think of Gypsy and we think of its brilliance, so often we go back to the brilliance of the score. Everything's Coming Up Roses, Some People, Rose's Turn. I can go on and on and on. But one of the songs that I find really fascinating in terms of how subtext is being used in a particular moment through Gypsy is the moment where Rose, our mother character, meets Herbie for the first time, who, if you've seen the show, you know will become her love interest, her long-suffering love interest. She meets him, and in the I'll tell you briefly what happens in the scene.

She meets him backstage at a theater. He offhandedly mentions that he used to be an agent. She needs an agent for her kids. He starts to leave, and she has to figure out how to keep this guy in the room. First of all, we're talking objective, which is something that, you know, I think when musicals were being constructed, it's like, well, when are they gonna sing pretty? Or we need some snappy jokes here. The only one that I would say maybe comes closest to what I'm talking about is The Most Happy Fella. But because that's such a sung-through piece, and some people will even argue that it moves into opera or an advanced operetta category, I'm not including it here. I'm talking about the perfect symbiosis between book, lyric, and musical composition.

Sorry, so going back to Small World, she has to keep this guy in the room somehow and get her to do what she wants for him. The brilliance of Arthur Laurents' script is you could play Rose and go, Well, what do I want from him? Do I want him to be my agent? Do I want him to be my love interest? Am I just gonna use this guy? Do I genuinely have feelings for him? And all of those avenues are supported by the text and the way that the show moves forward. And one of the things that I mention in my chapter, which I find so interesting about Small World, is I look at all the actresses who have played Rose on Broadway, and I'm sure there's 90 other ways that could be done if you look at actresses who did it in regional theater in Summerstock.

But on Broadway, all of these actresses have the same text, have the same lyrics, and they all find different ways of keeping this person in the room. And I and one of the things that I mentioned, and I didn't want to, I didn't want to sound like I was being pejorative, but an example that I use is if you look at something like I Could Have Danced All Night from My Fair Lady, which is a gorgeous song and is a brilliant musical moment. And when she sings it, you sit there and you go, Yes, she's happy for the first time. Right. But there's really because of the way that it's structured, you really don't have a lot of ways to interpret that material. She comes in and she's happy. If she comes in and she plays quote unquote subtext of my life has never been good till this moment, the audience goes, What the heck is happening?

Or you do you know what I mean? Like you can add little bits of business, or you can add this, or you can add that. But if you try to take the song into a different direction, the moment in the show somehow becomes dissipated. Unlike Gypsy, which is saying, Hey, listen, here's what needs to happen. Here's where you need to go. How many different routes can we take to get there? Okay. And I don't think other musicals are. I mean, unless somebody calls me out and says that I'm wrong, I don't know how many different ways she can get through I Could Have Danced All Night. Right.

[8:04] Andrew Child: And do you think that that is something we see? This sort of sophistication, these complex characters, is that something we're seeing in Arthur Laurents' later works or works leading up to this, or was Gypsy just like—

[8:09] Robert W. Schneider: I think Gypsy is an anomaly. This is just my impression. First of all, he's, you know, as a playwright, you know, he had lots of interesting work, but we're talking specifically about musicals. No, because I think West Side Story is beautiful and as moving and as gripping as West Side Story is from a character perspective, there's still kind of that two-dimensional left over from that two-dimensional Rodgers and Hammerstein world, the young juvenile, the hopeful ingenue, the sassy best friend. So while they're dealing with very realistic themes, they don't really break those stereotypes. Gypsy does break those stereotypes. In future Arthur Laurents musicals, you know, maybe Do I Hear a Waltz?

I'm sorry, maybe Do I Hear a Waltz? Um, kinda, and I'm saying just kind of in that one. Just kind of okay. Yeah, and La Cage that he writes the—no, sorry, that he doesn't write the book for, I'm sorry, that he directed. Oh, yeah, we're only talking about his librettos. So, no, I think Gypsy's an anomaly. Sorry, long answer to a short question.

[9:25] Andrew Child: No, that's totally fine. What do we think comes into the process of making Gypsy when we put Ethel Merman in this role?

[9:40] Robert W. Schneider: In terms of like a commercial aspect or in terms of an artistic aspect?

[9:45] Andrew Child: I think in terms of like the artistic aspect. I think casting her is actually a genius move. Because up until this point, Ethel Merman was known as she's the woman who comes in, she stands center stage, she's really loud. Some didn't even like her at all because they thought she was too vulgar. Because she had this very quote unquote masculine energy about her, as opposed to somebody like a Mary Martin or a Barbara Cook or somebody along those lines. I think casting her—she also had this reputation of, well, she's not an actress. That was the reputation. She's not an actor, she's not an actress, she's not an actress. So I think the brilliance of casting her is saying Gypsy's about surprises. It's surprises about what the audience is going to expect. And I think by saying, hey, listen, we're gonna surprise you by taking this woman that you all think she can do is sing, and showing that she's got all this range inside of her. To me, I think is a brilliant move.

[10:46] Andrew Child: Yeah, to give her these soft songs. I mean, also talk about surprises to have her first entrance, spoiler alert, coming down the aisle through the house. As soon for that is probably the, you know, I please forgive me, and I can't. I've heard this from a lot of people. I think Jerry Zaks said this, so I'm gonna say that Mr. Zaks said this.

[11:07] Robert W. Schneider: Got it.

[11:08] Andrew Child: The first five minutes of a musical are the most important because those are the ones that set up the contract with the audience. And no matter what you do after those five minutes, even if it's brilliant, you might never get them back again. And I think the genius of Gypsy is saying, first of all, it starts with one of the greatest overtures ever, and it's talk about winning you over, bringing you in. Oh, yeah. That is powerful, that is an energized overture. You hear that brass and you go, this is showbiz. This is show business. This is showbiz baby.

[11:46] Robert W. Schneider: You know, this is showbiz baby, and the show starts and there's no opening number. There's no happy villagers number where everyone comes out and says, Here's our community. It starts with a book scene. And automatically you go, huh? What okay? And then maybe what, nine lines in, we hear Sing Out, Louise, sing out from the back of the house, and all of a sudden, this leading lady of Broadway, our protagonist, is entering right next to us. Through that alone, the team is telling you this is not gonna be the traditional show that you're used to. Throw all your expectations out the window. And then it follows up on that promise. It totally subverts the way we meet characters, the way it ebbs and flows all the way through to if you wanted to talk a little bit about what you outline about the ending in your chapter is not a typical ending of a Broadway musical.

[12:53] Robert W. Schneider: Oh my god, no. You know, you look at the last scene of Gypsy, and this is why I think it's such a great libretto. You cannot tell from the dressing room scene where Louise tells Mama Rose, you know, I thought you did it for me, Mama, which is essentially cutting Rose out and forcing Rose to confront what her problems are. Through Rose walking out of that dressing room, walking onto the bare stage of this burlesque house, going into her Rose's Turn, which is a musical awakening, a musical epiphany, to the end of the show, where then it returns with Louise coming back and having what looks like the beginnings of an olive branch between the two of them. You cannot tell where Jule Styne stopped, where Stephen Sondheim started, where Arthur Laurents stopped, where Jerome Robbins started. It feels all of one mind. And I think that's capturing magic in a bottle.

[13:56] Andrew Child: Oh, absolutely. And I mean, that's where again the subtext is coming in, these choices that these actors get to make in these dynamite roles. And obviously, when we talk Mama Rose, in comparable, the women who have played—oh, God, yes, that role. And I think, you know, just the last—the what I and you just brought this up, and I think it's so interesting.

[14:21] Robert W. Schneider: You know, the last spoiler alert, the last thing in Gypsy where we think mom and daughter are gonna make peace with each other. The mom says, you know, I had a dream, and it said, you know, um Rose and her daughter Gypsy. And you think to yourself, if you're an actor, you can play this 90 different ways. Is she making that as a joke to her daughter, like, I know how crazy I've been, and that's gonna stop? Or is she serious? Wait a minute, what do you think about this? So she's always gonna be scheming, and she's always never gonna be able to stop trying to be famous. Does that make sense?

[14:59] Andrew Child: Yes, like you can play that 90 different ways.

[15:04] Robert W. Schneider: You know, if you play Eliza, where the devil are my slippers, there's pretty like one or two ways to play that. Which then just makes it the role of Mama Rose such an attractive role for an actor.

[15:20] Andrew Child: Um, yes.

[15:21] Robert W. Schneider: I we talked about, I know you've seen the Imelda Staunton production that was filmed. Um, she seems dangerous. She makes you nervous, she seems volatile, you know. I think had this show not been written in the 1950s, where there were certain things an audience would allow and not allow, I think this show probably would have gone much darker than what was probably seen in the 1950s because the real Rose was, you know, she was accused of killing someone. She was, you know, um in apparently in her later years, she was a lesbian or identified as a lesbian. Like, I mean, there's so many things about her that are so fascinating that we can't bring to the forefront. But I feel like Imelda Staunton's performance is definitely saying this woman is, there's something chemically unbalanced with her. There's mental, there's unchecked mental health issues.

[16:14] Andrew Child: Yeah.

[16:15] Robert W. Schneider: And there's something about, uh, you know, she's the opposite of Ethel Merman. She's this little petite woman, and all of a sudden, for her to just have this coming out of her is scary. Rose can be anything. She can be as, I mean, uh Staunton and Tyne Daly, you could not physically have two more opposite types from each other, and both mesmerizing in the role. You can have Bernadette Peters versus Ethel Merman. Rose also, you know, she can be played young. If she was, if she's a young mom, right? Because it's the time period, she doesn't have to be as old as these actresses, as older as these actresses are that are being cast in it. She could be a young woman. There is so much latitude here, which makes it a much richer experience.

[17:06] Andrew Child: Right.

[17:07] Robert W. Schneider: Well, and I mean, we can look at Patti LuPone, who really made a career playing it at many different points. Um, and that gives us a full spectrum because Patti LuPone doing this role now versus Patti LuPone doing this role 15 years ago. Sure is two very different things. I'm wondering, are there, um, are there women who you feel like we've missed out on their Rose? Like, has anyone aged out of it who you would have loved to have seen tackle this part? Like living or dead, or like living or dead, yeah.

[17:43] Andrew Child: Um, dead.

[17:45] Robert W. Schneider: Damn. Um, I would have loved to have seen Elaine Stritch do it. I would love to have seen Bea Arthur do it. Oh, of course. Um, I would love to have seen Diane Carroll do it. Um, excellent, yeah. Uh, the, uh, Rita Moreno, I think would have been a really interesting Mama Rose.

[18:07] Andrew Child: Okay.

[18:07] Robert W. Schneider: Um, those are just some of the names that come to my mind that I wish I could have seen do it. Um, you know, uh, you might think I'm nuts. I I don't know if she would say if she could sing it, but like I maybe I'm on a golden girl's face today. I think watching somebody like a Betty White or a Cloris Leachman would be interesting, especially Betty White, because I think that idea of using my sweetness to get these people to do what I want. But there's something going on deeper under the surface, I think would be interesting.

[18:40] Andrew Child: Well, and what's her character on the Mary Tyler Moore?

[18:43] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, Sue Ann Nivens.

[18:45] Andrew Child: That would be, yeah.

[18:46] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah. Those are the actresses that I would like to have seen do it. That I would, that I would, that I would have been fascinated to see what they brought to the role. Well, I mean, I mean you, I mean I think one of the cool things about Gypsy is that you can give it to any actress, and there's, they're gonna find a way into it.

[19:02] Andrew Child: I would, yeah, I was gonna say the, um, Stella Adler in her book, um, she's, you know, pish posh. Uh, we'll never, we're never gonna know if Marlon Brando is one of the greats because he's not doing Lear. He's not doing Iago. So if he's not doing these roles, we're never gonna know. Um, and in a, you know, shut up, Stella Adler. Um, but in a different way, it is kind of nice to have these roles that never go out of style, that we'll never get tired of seeing that it's kind of like, um, like, you know, I've seen Lear more than I've ever seen any other play or any other, uh, musical, anything. Um, and recently I got to see, um, Christopher Lloyd do it. And I remember being at intermission and hearing someone say, Oh, it's just he's a one-note Lear, it's the pacing isn't there, he's not varying it up.

And I wanted to just be like, shut up. Like, we're seeing Christopher Lloyd do Lear, you know what I mean? Like, give him his chance. It's only intermission. Like, let's see what happens. Um, and I do feel that way about, um, Mama Rose as well. Like, I I don't really care who's designing, I really actually don't care at all who's directing. Um, but give me someone interesting in that role, and I'm into it. I want to see it. I also think it's a strong enough role, and the material is so strong, you can hand it to maybe an actress that's not the best, and they'll find something in there that they can latch on to. It's just good material. You don't have to work to make that work, right? I mean, think of how many shows from that era, you know, that would be honestly, that would be you would try to do today, and people go, what the f how how?

[20:53] Andrew Child: Right.

[20:54] Robert W. Schneider: How do we go into this? Right. Like, and I I hate to keep coming back to My Fair Lady, but I feel like that's one where now it has to be told through whatever the director's vision of that is. And when you do that, no offense to the most recent production at Lincoln Center, but you know, you gain things and you lose things.

[21:16] Andrew Child: Right.

[21:17] Robert W. Schneider: And I think with Gypsy, I don't see us gaining or losing anything as time goes on.

[21:21] Andrew Child: No, I well, I don't feel like we need to put it through any sort of new lens to make it edgy, to make it feel contemporary, to make it feel fresh, to make it feel new. I don't think there's anything, even though, yes, you point out the source material is darker than what the show gives us. I don't think it's a rosy, pleasant, you know, pastel tinted show at all, you know. Um, I think it's timeless because it's about parents and children. That doesn't go away. I it's same for me as Fiddler on the Roof, which I don't think Fiddler on the Roof will ever go away, because it's about parents and children and family. And while the clothing might change or the entertainment might change, that story will always be universal. That story will always be timeless. I think it's why if you go back to Greek drama, something like Antigone is still done all the time, because it's about what, who, what's more important, the individual or the group.

[22:26] Andrew Child: Right.

[22:26] Robert W. Schneider: You know, can a leader backtrack on something? Now, here's what's interesting. I don't know how many other musicals we can put in a discussion while saying it, you know, Antigone, Oedipus Rex, Shakespeare, Gypsy. You know, I don't, I can't think of a lot of other titles that we could talk about that will still be done years and years and years from now. But do you feel like there is that future for Gypsy?

[22:52] Andrew Child: Oh, yeah.

[22:53] Robert W. Schneider: I don't think it goes, I mean, it's about, like I said, it's about parents and children. It's about the moment a child has to become the parent. It's the moment when you realize your parents are infallible. It's about, um, it's about sex at the end. I mean, that's the another element that goes into it. It's about, um, you know, what's appropriate, what's not appropriate. Um, it's about boundaries, you know, uh, a daughter who's trying to set boundaries for herself and a mother that keeps tearing them down one after another. So I yeah, I I think every generation will find something unique. And as long as the, it's like Hamlet, as long as there's an actress that comes along, and we're now living in an age where gender is starting to be removed in terms of performance.

It maybe an actor will come along that will say, you know, listen, I'll be honest with you. If Billy Porter was like, I want to play Mama Rose, I'd be cool. I'd be like, Greg, get me tickets. I'm interested. Um, that as long as there's someone who wants to play it, it will, it will happen. And I think like Hamlet, like Medea, like Hickey, I think all of those things will, no one will never want to not do them.

[24:05] Andrew Child: Right.

[24:06] Robert W. Schneider: There's, and I haven't verified this, but there was an interview with Patti LuPone where the interviewer said, How do you feel about Adele's recent comments that she wants to play this role someday? Um, and I'm right there with Patti LuPone that it's like when Adele is the right age, I think she'd be amazing. I think she'd be phenomenal. Um, but then she wonders in the interview, uh, what is Adele drawn to about Mama Rose? You know, what draws her to it? And I think, yeah, everything you're hitting upon, there will always be an interest in playing Mama Rose because the material is just so fabulous.

[24:49] Andrew Child: You brought up, um, in another episode, we talked, we ended up talking about Gypsy somehow, and you brought up another actress that you would love to see. Would you want to talk about that here?

[25:00] Robert W. Schneider: Viola Davis?

[25:01] Andrew Child: Yeah.

[25:02] Robert W. Schneider: I would love to see Viola Davis play this role because I think what she, she has such intelligence as an actress. I would love to see what she brings to how Mama Rose gets what she wants from people. Because Viola Davis to me is like a prism. Every time you turn it, something different is reflected, and I feel like the script of Gypsy is similar. So I would love to see what she brings to the table on that.

[25:30] Andrew Child: Yeah.

[25:31] Robert W. Schneider: I think there's a rawness and a visceral quality to her that also would work really well. That's the fun thing. Like it's fun to watch like Imelda Staunton be raw and visceral and then turn into a scared little child at the end. It's also fun to watch people who've played like Bernadette Peters who play with this sweetness, and then at the end we see how ferocious she can be. It's fun, always I have never, I have seen productions of Gypsy where I've always thought, oh, this could be better, maybe this or that. Right. But I've never left one and was like, what the hell was that?

[26:07] Andrew Child: That's great.

[26:08] Robert W. Schneider: The story is so good, it can survive bad designs or bad direction or bad supporting players. Now, million dollar question. Does that statement still stand about the movie adaptation and the made-for-TV adaptation?

[26:27] Andrew Child: The Rosalind Russell one?

[26:29] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah. I listen. I, okay. This is my feeling on the Rosalind Russell version. Go, go for it. Despite the fact that she can't sing. Mm-hmm. I think she's perfect casting for it.

[26:46] Andrew Child: That's so interesting.

[26:47] Robert W. Schneider: Okay. I I don't see anything wrong with her playing Mama Rose. I really don't. Mama Rose needs to be intelligent, needs to be headstrong, and needs to be ferocious. And I feel like Rosalind Russell got all that across. That's my opinion. I'm I'm wondering, do you not think the same?

[27:10] Andrew Child: It so you have to understand I grew up on the Bette Midler made-for-TV one, which is the perfect iteration of Gypsy in my mind, possibly just because I grew up on it. It's also one of the best movie musicals I think ever made.

[27:28] Robert W. Schneider: The Bette Midler one.

[27:30] Andrew Child: Oh. See, I absolutely love it. Um, I think perfect casting. I think what a bummer that we never got her doing the show live.

[27:41] Robert W. Schneider: I know she had other priorities at the time.

[27:44] Andrew Child: She had just come off of doing her big, uh, concert, everything like that. And obviously, she just came back, uh, recently and did Dolly. So, you know, good for her. Um, but no, I think just because I grew up with that one, and that's what I was familiar with when I first saw Rosalind Russell. I um, I didn't love it. I didn't, I just thought it sort of fell flat. I think, um, that now I can diagnose that I think it is missing some of the subtlety, some of the subtext, um, which I think obviously this is not an original thought. When we put it on film, we can magnify that so much, and I think that Midler gives us that. I think she has all of this going on behind this facade. Um, and then Rosalind Russell, I feel like is just kind of screlting her way through.

[28:40] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah, it's you know, I think there were uh there were other actresses that I'm sure people were looking at. I I I would imagine back then, like maybe a Betty Davis would be in consideration for it, or a Joan Crawford or you know, one of those types. I don't know. Rosalind Russell, it doesn't bother me as much as it bothers other people.

[29:00] Robert W. Schneider: Okay. I guess I will say I don't necessarily think that I'm opposed to a Mama Rose who can't sing, or who isn't really a singer, first and foremost. Like Imelda Staunton, obviously can sing, but is first and foremost an actor, you know, and I think it works.

[29:19] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, yeah, because once again, you know, there's trade-offs. They will always I don't know if you'll ever find like the perfect Rose, because I don't think that exists. It's like the who's the perfect Hamlet. It needs so many different, and there'll be some things that get emphasized and some things that won't. Like, for example, well, Imelda Staunton's a really good singer. I'm trying to think of somebody else. Like, uh, let's imagine for a second, Elaine Stritch doing it.

[29:44] Robert W. Schneider: If Elaine Stritch were to do it, you'd go, Oh my god, the acting. Oh, the vocals. Do you know what I mean?

[29:52] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah. But if you flip it and it's, I don't know, Barbara Cook or somebody, although she's not the right, she's not right for this. Um you would go, oh my gosh, the the the vocals, oh, the acting. Not that she's a bad actress, not a bad actress at all, but no, but it's it's different.

[30:08] Robert W. Schneider: And that I guess brings us back to sort of um what uh lucky stroke of genius to put Ethel Merman in this. You get someone who it can't really be said that she's a singer, can't really be said that she's an actor, can't really be said that she's a dancer. It's just she is an entertainer, she is a performer through and through one of the greats.

[30:31] Andrew Child: Yes, and I will and I will say, maybe through our 21st century lens, we can't say she's not a singer. Back then, they thought she was great, you know.

[30:39] Robert W. Schneider: And honestly, I mean her voice was I think that she was a much better actress than people gave her credit for.

[30:46] Andrew Child: Oh, yeah.

[30:47] Robert W. Schneider: Honestly, I I think if you ever watch It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World, she should have gotten an Oscar nomination. She is so funny. You're like, well, she does the same thing over and over again. I'm like, do you want to talk about any of the people that are on Broadway today?

[31:03] Andrew Child: Right, right.

[31:04] Robert W. Schneider: That are but don't have the personality, but they still do the same freaking thing. I won't mention names, but like there are some people when you're when you they get announced for a show, you go, I know exactly what this is gonna be.

[31:17] Andrew Child: Yep.

[31:18] Robert W. Schneider: So I I don't know where the oh, she does, you know, she's she does the same thing over and over again. So does everybody, right?

[31:24] Andrew Child: So does everybody.

[31:25] Robert W. Schneider: I love Ethel Merman. I think she's fabulous. I just also it makes me so happy that Mama Rose, like I said, she doesn't have to be played, uh, doesn't have to be cast older. But we're looking at one of the first times we're seeing a female lead of a certain age.

[31:47] Andrew Child: Anjou's up until that point, Eliza's supposed to be young.

[31:52] Robert W. Schneider: Uh uh Sarah, Adelaide, they're supposed to be young. Julie Jordan, Lori, you know, and every once in a while you'd have like a Lady in the Dark, where you know, maybe there's a woman of a certain age in this, or Pal Joey. Um, but those shows were, you know, honestly, in those, the women in that I think come off as a little bit pathetic in some ways.

[32:15] Andrew Child: Like, you know, Vera in Pal Joey has to she pays, she pays to have his company.

[32:21] Robert W. Schneider: Um Liza and in Lady in the Dark is going through a psychological problem. You know, uh it's and Rose, even though we know that there's there's mental health issues, she's still a fully formed, strong, she's strong.

[32:36] Andrew Child: Yeah, there's nothing pathetic.

[32:38] Robert W. Schneider: There's nothing pathetic. You can feel sorry for her at times, but there's nothing pathetic or helpless or and that and that interests me. And I think that's also great to see.

[32:49] Andrew Child: And probably, yeah.

[32:51] Robert W. Schneider: Interests a lot of people wanting to play this role.

[32:54] Andrew Child: Yeah, and I think Stephen Sondheim said, you know, in a lot of ways, Rose is America. Rose is that can do, I'm gonna pick myself up and dust myself off, and you know.

[33:04] Robert W. Schneider: And she also comes from low economic means. Liza and Pal in um uh Lady in the Dark is very wealthy. She's uh runs a magazine, and Pal Joey, Vera's very wealthy.

[33:15] Andrew Child: Right.

[33:15] Robert W. Schneider: So to watch um a woman of a certain age uh with not a lot of economic means struggle to survive. Fascinating.

[33:25] Andrew Child: And it raises the stakes.

[33:27] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, absolutely. It raises the stakes when she steals the silverware from the restaurant, you know, and she says, you know, the the good Lord helps those who help themselves. What she's first, she's stealing, but she's somehow able to justify why she's taking things.

[33:45] Andrew Child: Like, how do you get into it?

[33:47] Robert W. Schneider: But that's part of her mindset of survival. Yes, I know stealing is wrong, but I'm gonna convince myself that I can do it, that it's okay to do it, because the Lord helps those who help themselves. I mean, this every I mean she's I'm I'm so I just love her so much.

[34:04] Andrew Child: Um you don't get that in other shows.

[34:07] Robert W. Schneider: You don't get that in other shows. You just don't. You don't you don't get the richness of this dialogue in other shows. I think if you're a musical theater writer, you should study, study, study this libretto backwards, forwards, every which way but sideways in terms of three-dimensional, believable characterizations.

[34:33] Andrew Child: So who would you say, or what would you say are the more contemporary or post-Gypsy who's writing the characters that you're saying, yeah, that has something there that comes close or that rivals Mama Rose. Do we have any?

[34:51] Robert W. Schneider: Or again, is this an anomaly in your opinion?

[34:56] Robert W. Schneider: I'm sure people's I mean this is a hard one. It is, yeah. Because I don't I think there are musicals that are really well structured because of Gypsy. I think uh A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum is brilliantly structured.

[35:16] Robert W. Schneider: I think 1776 is brilliantly structured. Um Sweeney Todd. Uh, but these are all a Fiddler on the Roof, Fiddler on the Roof. But they're but they're all sort of going back to that two-dimensional aspect that Sondheim talks about, which is like Grumpy Father, uh Crazy Mother, Lost Daughter.

[35:43] Andrew Child: You know, they all sort of go into that, and that's really all you get.

[35:48] Robert W. Schneider: That's all you get with them. But I I cannot, I mean, may you know, Next to Normal, um is one where I felt like the characters and I'm talking I'm talking about a musical that says it's taking place in the here and the now, and they're realistic, and there's nothing, you know, it's not like we're doing Xanadu or something like that.

[36:11] Andrew Child: It's like real realistic, fully fleshed characters.

[36:15] Robert W. Schneider: Next to Normal, I feel does that. Fun Home, I feel does that.

[36:19] Andrew Child: Oh yeah.

[36:20] Robert W. Schneider: Um I think that might those are the ones that are coming to me off the top of my head.

[36:27] Andrew Child: Right.

[36:27] Robert W. Schneider: Everything else I feel feels like it's sketched in a little bit. And I'm sure people will reach out and go, I oh my god, I can't believe you know, you didn't mention blah blah blah. And I would love to I would love to hear that. But those are the ones that just pop off my top the top of my head.

[36:40] Andrew Child: Maybe maybe Rent, maybe Rent.

[36:43] Robert W. Schneider: Okay.

[36:44] Robert W. Schneider: But again, like those shows that you just listed, um, even Fun Home, I would say are more focused on on an ensemble arc. Whereas this show, it's all on this one character's shoulders.

[36:56] Andrew Child: It's all on this one actor's shoulders, you know, to really make her better.

[37:06] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you know, you could look at like the Jerry Herman ladies. Like you could look at Dolly or you could look at Mame. But the nice thing about Dolly or Mame is those are personality pieces.

[37:17] Andrew Child: Those are really based on the energy that the the actress brings to that role.

[37:22] Robert W. Schneider: And then the role sort of morphs. And then it can be well if it's Carol Channing playing it, then the objective is is to you know be silly and zany and to make everyone feel great. If it's somebody like Donna Murphy, then there's an actual like oh Donna Murphy would be a great Rose.

[37:39] Andrew Child: Oh, and also Dolly and Mame have enough going on around it that even if the Dolly or Mame is weak and I have seen I'll be honest I've seen productions of Dolly or Mame where Dolly and Mame weren't very good and I was like this was not a an evening well spent but there's enough going on around them that you can kind of survive having a weak lead.

[38:02] Robert W. Schneider: Right.

[38:03] Andrew Child: Okay.

[38:04] Robert W. Schneider: I think however they bring out a train yeah yeah they bring out a train um you know Mame there's a fox hunt you're like what the hell is happening um Mame I don't think we're ever gonna see again because I don't think you can do that show anymore in the 21st century I think dammit I've been warming up my man in the moon is a lady I'm sorry to go I'm sorry I'm sorry.

[38:28] Robert W. Schneider: Um but Gypsy yeah, I mean Gypsy is one of those things, like it's almost foolproof. It's almost foolproof.

[38:37] Andrew Child: I've seen countless productions of it.

[38:39] Robert W. Schneider: I don't ever think I've seen a production where I went away saying I'm so dissatisfied with this with this having the story in my life for this these two hours.

[38:48] Andrew Child: Wow.

[38:48] Robert W. Schneider: I've seen huge for anything.

[38:54] Andrew Child: Yeah.

[38:54] Robert W. Schneider: I've seen community theater actors do it. I've seen high schoolers do it. I've seen Broadway professionals do it. They everyone brings something to it.

[39:03] Andrew Child: Yeah.

[39:05] Robert W. Schneider: And I but that's the material. That's because it's good material, it's Shakespeare, it's Hamlet. And that's because of Arthur Laurents' book. And yes, Sondheim's lyrics are incredible.

[39:16] Robert W. Schneider: And Julie Styne, I think it's one of you know his best. Jule Styne, I've always felt was as good as who he was working with. And I and I think this and Funny Girl are really great, but I think Gypsy's the top of that list.

[39:28] Andrew Child: Oh, easily.

[39:29] Robert W. Schneider: Easily.

[39:30] Andrew Child: Yeah.

[39:30] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah. And it's, you know, the brilliance of for example, Let Me Entertain You. Uh I cannot think of a moment prior to Gypsy where when you heard the music again in a totally different subtextual context.

[39:46] Andrew Child: You and you were like, what the hell is this?

[39:49] Robert W. Schneider: The fact that it's sung by these little eight-year-old girls, you know, the Let Me Entertain You, and it's so stupid and so silly, and it feels like a kitty number. And then when you go, it's the song she sings when she gets naked in front of guys for money.

[40:06] Andrew Child: You go, oh my god, I didn't see that coming.

[40:10] Robert W. Schneider: Right.

[40:11] Robert W. Schneider: And you just and that's brilliant. But it makes sense then, you know. I think that's the genius part is I didn't see this coming, but now that you're doing this, obviously, oh, you should have seen it coming.

[40:23] Andrew Child: Like that's what makes it so genius.

[40:25] Robert W. Schneider: Absolutely. And it sets it up in the beginning. It's this cute little ditty, and you go, Oh, that's cute, that's the number she wrote for them. Ha ha. You never thinking about it again.

[40:33] Robert W. Schneider: And then she starts singing it when she strips. And you just go, What the fuck is happening?

[40:40] Andrew Child: Or even I'm gonna take it back because I think I get chills because I know what's coming when she's rifling through the portfolio of songs. What are you gonna sing? Oh, what about this one? Or you know, yeah, paraphrase, but when she picks out which song, like goosebumps, you know.

[40:57] Robert W. Schneider: There's you know, to me, I feel there's no fat on Gypsy, there's no excess on Gypsy. There there, everything in that show moves the story forward and gives you valuable information.

[41:12] Andrew Child: Well, and that's where Arthur Laurents is claiming that it's the first musical theater that's not musical comedy, that there isn't ever a break, that we come away and we do a comic relief routine, you know, because even Gotta Get a Gimmick is yeah, progressing us.

[41:31] Robert W. Schneider: Absolutely. I would I would agree with that 110%.

[41:34] Andrew Child: 110%.

[41:35] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah. So it's it's a brilliant book. I think it is the best book for musical theater ever written. And uh if you're starting musical theater, I would say study that like it's the Bible, you know.

[41:48] Robert W. Schneider: Gypsy, I think should be taught the same way we teach Hamlet, the same way we teach uh Romeo and Juliet, the same way we teach Medea. All I it it to me, it is in that uh Pantheon. It is in the it is deserves to be up on the pedestal that high.

[42:05] Andrew Child: Wow.

[42:07] Robert W. Schneider: Wow. Well, thank you.

[42:08] Andrew Child: And if you s and if you say no, I'll fight you.

[42:10] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah.

[42:12] Andrew Child: Well, thank you so much for joining us today. Please make sure to purchase a copy of Fifty Key Stage Musicals by visiting Routledge.com or by clicking in today's show description.

[42:24] Andrew Child: If you want to learn more about Gypsy, please also review the links in the below description. I am Andrew Child and thank you for listening to Fifty Key Stage Musicals, the podcast.

[42:37] Andrew Child: Here she is world.