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[0:02] Andrew Child: Tradition.

[0:07] Andrew Child: Tradition.

[0:08] Andrew Child: Tradition.

[0:10] Andrew Child: Tradition.

[0:14] Andrew Child: Hi, I'm Andrew Child, and welcome to Fifty Key Stage Musicals, the podcast, a companion piece to the Routledge Press publication, Fifty Key Stage Musicals, which is available for purchase by going to Routledge.com or clicking the link below in today's show description.

[0:33] Andrew Child: Today's episode focuses on chapter 19, Fiddler on the Roof.

[0:37] Andrew Child: And with us today is author of that chapter, Beth Burrier.

[0:42] Beth Burrier: Beth Burrier is head of musical theater at Manhattanville College in Purchase, New York, and a principal conductor and the associate artistic director of the College Light Opera Company in Falmouth, Massachusetts.

[0:55] Beth Burrier: She holds a Master of Music, summa cum laude from Ithaca College, and a Bachelor of Music Education, summa cum laude with honors from Otterbein University.

[1:06] Beth Burrier: Beth has been on the faculty at Baldwin Wallace and Penn State and has taught music theater history, music theory, acting the song, audition technique, voice, and piano.

[1:17] Beth Burrier: National tours include Rent, The Full Monty, and Beehive, the Sixties Musical.

[1:24] Andrew Child: Beth, thank you so much for talking with me today.

[1:27] Beth Burrier: Oh, thank you so much, Andrew.

[1:29] Beth Burrier: It is my pleasure.

[1:31] Andrew Child: So I'm really excited to dive in because we got a big one today.

[1:36] Andrew Child: Uh, so start us off.

[1:40] Andrew Child: Somehow, can you summarize what makes Fiddler on the Roof a key musical?

[1:49] Beth Burrier: Summarize?

[1:50] Beth Burrier: There's a whole chapter about why it's a key musical.

[1:53] Andrew Child: I should read it.

[1:55] Beth Burrier: You should.

[1:55] Beth Burrier: Everyone should buy the book and read it.

[1:57] Andrew Child: There we go, and we're done.

[1:59] Beth Burrier: That's okay.

[2:01] Beth Burrier: But seriously, uh, Fiddler is important because it is beloved and a hugely pivotal piece of work in the arc of the art form.

[2:15] Beth Burrier: So because there are really important musicals that the general public doesn't know, but you would be hard pressed to find somebody, some non-musical theater person, a muggle, walking down the street that wouldn't recognize something from Fiddler.

[2:31] Beth Burrier: Everybody knows "Sunrise, Sunset," everybody knows "Tradition."

[2:34] Beth Burrier: It is a cultural touchstone, and I don't mean just in America, I mean around the world.

[2:39] Beth Burrier: But then it also is the closing of the golden age, the pinnacle, the last hurrah of the golden age of musical theater, ushering in the time of the director choreographer leading us to Chorus Line, and also fitting in with all of the great social justice work that was happening in the 1960s.

[3:05] Beth Burrier: So there you have it.

[3:07] Andrew Child: Do you think so?

[3:09] Beth Burrier: It's a key musical we should be studying it.

[3:12] Andrew Child: Do you think it's a musical?

[3:14] Andrew Child: Should we still be reviving it?

[3:15] Andrew Child: Should we still be performing it?

[3:17] Andrew Child: Should we still be seeing it?

[3:18] Beth Burrier: I think so.

[3:19] Beth Burrier: I think so.

[3:20] Beth Burrier: And today, as we are talking on this podcast, as Russia has invaded the Ukraine, which is where Anatevka is.

[3:30] Beth Burrier: So there is still global conflict right in that geographical area.

[3:37] Beth Burrier: So it is specific to that, and it is also so it's specifically about Anatevka and the Jewish tradition there, but it is also hugely universal in its sense of endings and beginnings and change and history and what is important for all people.

[3:58] Beth Burrier: How do you navigate change in your life?

[4:00] Beth Burrier: How do we navigate this pandemic?

[4:03] Beth Burrier: Is it over?

[4:04] Beth Burrier: Is it not over?

[4:05] Beth Burrier: What's happening right now?

[4:07] Beth Burrier: And how do we look at our lives going forward after this pivotal moment?

[4:13] Beth Burrier: And Fiddler has lessons for all of us in that and how to stay positive and fit people into your life, even though maybe they're not doing exactly what you want them to do.

[4:27] Andrew Child: Do you beyond you know teaching musical theater history, beyond teaching musical theater in general, do you have a relationship with this show?

[4:36] Beth Burrier: Oh, sure.

[4:37] Beth Burrier: Wait, is there anything beyond teaching musical theater history?

[4:40] Beth Burrier: No, no.

[4:41] Beth Burrier: I've been told.

[4:42] Beth Burrier: I've heard really I I I I yeah, it's a rumor.

[4:45] Beth Burrier: Um the rumor, act two of Fiddler, which brings me back to the.

[4:49] Beth Burrier: Anyway, um, I yes, I have done the show twice.

[4:53] Beth Burrier: I should I I rehearsed it once way back in the day, and then had to leave the production before it opened.

[5:01] Beth Burrier: And then I did it at the College Light Opera Company.

[5:04] Beth Burrier: I was the musical director for it maybe eight years ago.

[5:07] Beth Burrier: Is it really 10 years ago now?

[5:09] Beth Burrier: Um it's one of the most moving shows I think I have ever conducted.

[5:16] Beth Burrier: There was not a night that now at the College Light Opera Company, we only do shows six times.

[5:21] Beth Burrier: Uh our runs are six shows long, but I was so moved, I was moved to tears every single night in that pit, and it was so much fun and so much joy, but then so much heartbreak.

[5:35] Beth Burrier: It's a cliché, but it is the whole human experience.

[5:38] Beth Burrier: And watching those college students say those words and experience that and some of the original choreography that we were able to put in the show.

[5:58] Beth Burrier: And by the audience, and for the audience to see that, good stuff.

[6:13] Andrew Child: Oh my goodness.

[6:14] Beth Burrier: Uh well, I listened to every single recording of it that I can find.

[6:19] Beth Burrier: And I really I would love to do the show again now that the Yiddish version exists.

[6:27] Beth Burrier: Right?

[6:27] Beth Burrier: Because so informative and so fascinating.

[6:31] Andrew Child: Well, so I not to interrupt, but I actually I saw the Yiddish production two times.

[6:37] Andrew Child: I saw it once when it was at the National Yiddish Theater.

[6:41] Andrew Child: Um, and what was amazing about that, not only were you surrounded by people and having this awareness that a lot of these old people around me are not relying on the captions, either because they know this language, or more likely, they know this show like the back of their hand.

[7:00] Andrew Child: They know every word.

[7:01] Andrew Child: You could be speaking this in gibberish and they'd know what's going on.

[7:05] Andrew Child: Um, but it had such an impact, you know, that design when they ripped the word Torah, there was a guttural sound coming from the audience.

[7:15] Andrew Child: And then when we leave at the end of the show, the National Yiddish Theater is right near Battery Park.

[7:20] Andrew Child: So you see the Statue of Liberty over the water, which was incredible.

[7:25] Andrew Child: Um, and then I went back again, uh, because that production I was I was ushering for it.

[7:30] Andrew Child: So I was sitting up the back watching, but I had stuff I was supposed to be doing, and I went back to see it again when it transferred, and totally different experience, but it was more I got to enjoy it as a piece of theater.

[7:45] Andrew Child: Um, were you able to see the production?

[7:47] Beth Burrier: I did not.

[7:48] Beth Burrier: I was not able to see it.

[7:49] Beth Burrier: I'm so jealous.

[7:50] Andrew Child: Which is so interesting.

[7:51] Andrew Child: What makes you want to tackle it in Yiddish now then?

[7:55] Beth Burrier: Oh well, I don't know that I could tackle it in Yiddish, but I would love to hear it.

[8:00] Beth Burrier: I think I'm not the person to do it in Yiddish, although I know most of the actors didn't speak and it was phonetic.

[8:07] Andrew Child: Um yeah.

[8:11] Beth Burrier: So yeah, go ahead.

[8:13] Andrew Child: No, go ahead, back to you.

[8:15] Andrew Child: From your listening to all these different recordings of it, do you have one version that you would say if people are listening and they say, I know "Sunrise, Sunset," I know "Tradition," they don't know Fiddler.

[8:29] Andrew Child: Would you have an album, a recording that you would recommend?

[8:33] Beth Burrier: I'd go to the original Broadway cast.

[8:35] Andrew Child: Okay.

[8:35] Beth Burrier: Why is that?

[8:36] Beth Burrier: Because it's the original.

[8:39] Beth Burrier: So which I mean that sounds really I'm glad you laughed at my bad dad joke.

[8:42] Beth Burrier: But um, I think it's always for somebody who knows bits and pieces of it like that, go back to the source material, see what it was, and then maybe go to the movie.

[8:54] Beth Burrier: Or any, you know, it depends on who I'm talking to.

[8:56] Beth Burrier: If it's a real musical theater skeptic, like I hate musicals, one of those people, um, we love them, they're okay.

[9:05] Beth Burrier: We're gonna convert them all.

[9:06] Andrew Child: Right.

[9:06] Beth Burrier: I might say go watch the movie.

[9:09] Andrew Child: Okay, because the movie is so watchable, and then you have the visual as well.

[9:13] Beth Burrier: But uh, you know, if it's somebody that's about to take a long car trip or something, and they want tunes for the cart, check out the original Broadway cast.

[9:22] Beth Burrier: Um, and then go to the movie and then go to some of the revivals and see from there.

[9:29] Andrew Child: Okay.

[9:29] Beth Burrier: But you know that it was written for that cast, and I feel like the original cast, all even though things get skewed in the recording process, and we know how all of that happens, but there's something about that original cast saying those lyrics of any show that I think is valuable.

[9:49] Andrew Child: Do you have an opinion, not to get too political here, about a Tevye that you would say is a great first Tevye to listen to, kind of the backbone of the show?

[10:01] Beth Burrier: Um, either, well, I mean, Zero, the original or Topol.

[10:05] Andrew Child: Okay.

[10:05] Beth Burrier: And then I would go to Danny, but Bert, I'm gonna say his name wrong, Bernstein.

[10:09] Andrew Child: Okay.

[10:10] Beth Burrier: Did I say right?

[10:11] Beth Burrier: Oh, yeah.

[10:11] Beth Burrier: I never say his name, but I'm not sure.

[10:13] Beth Burrier: Hammerstein Bernstein.

[10:16] Beth Burrier: We're gonna go with that.

[10:17] Beth Burrier: Okay.

[10:18] Beth Burrier: Yeah.

[10:18] Beth Burrier: Um, I'm sorry if I just did a terrible one.

[10:21] Beth Burrier: I'll take that.

[10:22] Beth Burrier: We'll take that.

[10:23] Beth Burrier: Perfect.

[10:24] Beth Burrier: Um, but yeah, I would I would I would go there, I think.

[10:29] Beth Burrier: Um yeah, that's not a particularly political question.

[10:32] Beth Burrier: And I think that's a fair question.

[10:34] Beth Burrier: I think sometimes it can be.

[10:35] Beth Burrier: I think there sometimes is a little bit of tension when we talk about our Tevyes.

[10:42] Andrew Child: Sure.

[10:42] Beth Burrier: If you're with the right crowd, there can be a little bit of, you know, like it's Topol all the way or it's Zero Mostel all the way.

[10:50] Andrew Child: In doing your research for this chapter, what sort of sources were you relying on to talk about Fiddler on the Roof?

[10:59] Beth Burrier: Oh, wait, I was I was supposed to do research.

[11:02] Beth Burrier: No.

[11:04] Beth Burrier: Sorry.

[11:05] Beth Burrier: Um, well, I I will tell you that I did so much research.

[11:09] Beth Burrier: I had so many different um journals and newspapers, and I am still getting weird spam email.

[11:19] Beth Burrier: It's not weird, it's just weird for me because it's all from all of these Jewish like news sources.

[11:25] Beth Burrier: Okay.

[11:26] Beth Burrier: Because I signed up on the sites to have access to all the all of the things.

[11:32] Beth Burrier: But uh I went to the Harry S. Truman Library to do research, not physically, but online, to look at the House Un-American Activities Committee material, and I looked at um information about Marc Chagall because his paintings so influenced the look of the production, and I looked at scholarly articles about Jewish immigrants changing their names in New York, not having them changed, like at Ellis Island, but choosing to change them so they would be less Jewish before World War II.

[12:11] Beth Burrier: Wow.

[12:12] Andrew Child: And every music history text, I think written has a chapter on Fiddler on the Roof.

[12:18] Beth Burrier: So I looked at maybe I don't know, eight or ten different music history texts. Um, and lots of scholarly articles written by Jewish scholars about how Fiddler isn't really Jewish.

[12:32] Andrew Child: Interesting.

[12:33] Beth Burrier: Yeah, all of the quote shtdel um chic stuff and and shedl kitsch. So that it's not real, it's plasticky, and that this is not what Steddles were, and the cuddly dairyman is not what that was, and how dare we put it on a stage and celebrate it, that sort of stuff, which is a completely valid viewpoint.

[12:58] Andrew Child: Which I think you go into, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you cover in the chapter Zero Mostel had some of that feeling.

[13:06] Beth Burrier: He did.

[13:07] Andrew Child: He did.

[13:08] Beth Burrier: He grew up Orthodox Jewish out right outside New York City, and on the one hand, he Tevye he grew up with the Tevye stories, as did all of the creatives. Um, and so he felt very much attached to Tevye, and that it was his role to play, and then he would get very um, he would have big opinions about how it was being portrayed.

[13:33] Andrew Child: And of course, he and Jerome Robbins did not get along because of the House on American Affairs Committee.

[13:39] Beth Burrier: Which is so fascinating to read about in your chapter. I thought that was just so interesting in the span of this book to get into this sort of feud that just encapsulates what was going on in politics so succinctly.

[14:02] Andrew Child: Right.

[14:02] Beth Burrier: Right. And there because there was Jerome Robbins called to the House on American Affairs Committee, and you know, the threat there is if you don't give us names, we will out you as a homosexual, which was you couldn't do that at that time. And so he was a friendly witness and turning people in.

[14:23] Andrew Child: And then there's Zero Mostel, who when they worked, and this is in the chapter, but when they worked on A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum, and Jerome Robbins walks in and he's eh, loose lips. Because he's betraying his fellow artists.

[14:34] Beth Burrier: And then Jerome Robbins lived with that for the rest of his life. But what do you do?

[14:42] Andrew Child: Right, right. Which I do have so much respect for Zero Mostel learning that because he has to come to mind as one of the funniest people to have ever lived.

[14:54] Beth Burrier: And then to know that behind all that, he clearly has so much heart, he has so much that he can stand for.

[15:56] Andrew Child: And it's interesting because in the 60s, I think, or in the not in the 60s, previous to that, uh, before there was that run of quote Jewish musicals, Fiddler and Funny Girl. Um it was an unwritten rule that a Jewish musical it was called too ethnic, so it wouldn't sell.

[16:20] Beth Burrier: And sometime between 1950 and now, I don't know that Americans would consider uh that to be too ethnic. You know, you look at Mrs. Maisel on Netflix, and it just feels slightly different, slightly, I don't know if assimilated is the right word.

[16:43] Andrew Child: Um, but I will sometimes have to remind my music theater history students, they will be saying that all of these golden age musicals were written by white men and they had all of this privilege, and I will say, yes, but they were Jewish actually, and their families were fleeing pogroms in eastern Europe.

[17:05] Beth Burrier: And I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing that we sort of have forgotten that bad because history repeats itself, but good because the more we see all people as the same, the better. I don't know.

[17:19] Andrew Child: We may have to edit some of this.

[17:23] Beth Burrier: I don't know if we've gone anywhere that we need to edit just yet, but I do think it's sort of and I think it's okay if we leave that, because we don't have a crystal ball as an open-ended thing, you know, that listeners can be thinking about and be engaging with.

[17:41] Andrew Child: Do I think that I don't think Fiddler is a is a quote dead show? I don't think it's something we need to put on the shelf and never do again. I think that would be a great loss to the art form.

[17:53] Beth Burrier: Do we need to have people involved in it at some level who are Jewish, who understand what that is, who understand the culture, and who can get um get things right about how that's supposed to be so that it's not completely Steddle kitsch and here's what we think Judaism is as compared to what it actually is.

[18:18] Andrew Child: Does that mean that the entire cast has to be Jewish except for the Russians? I don't know. And is now the perfect time to do this show to point out how cultures try and trample each other.

[18:34] Beth Burrier: It is yeah, I don't I don't know, but it's it I do think it's fascinating that this we sort of quickly came to this place with Fiddler. Um I'm curious, I know there's nothing outside of musical theater history, but you mentioned coming across music history in your research.

[18:59] Andrew Child: I'm curious if you have any tidbits or anything you can share with us. How does Fiddler feature in music history in a larger sense?

[19:10] Beth Burrier: Oh, um well, I think I don't know that I have anything too exciting to say about this, but I think the idea that there are um recognizable Jewish musical tropes, tropes is probably the wrong word.

[19:28] Andrew Child: Um there's recognizable Jewish music in Fiddler and Klesmer music and the fiddler and the violin and all of that. And I think that's it's interesting that here we have Jewish composers and lyricists, and you can hear their culture, you can hear their background in it in a way that you know Richard Rogers, Jewish, but Oklahoma sounds like Oklahoma.

[19:56] Beth Burrier: Right. What whatever that means. Um, yeah. In the scope of of the of music in musical theater.

[20:08] Andrew Child: And this is sort of so I for this book, I put together the chapter on The Merry Widow, um, which is looking to Eastern Europe and is then sort of, you know, World War One comes along, and we sort of have to say, uh actually we don't like this anymore. We're gonna go more American.

[20:27] Beth Burrier: So it is now interesting for me to be having this conversation putting into context that swing back around to maybe we don't have to have a distinctly American sound, and it can still be musical theater.

[20:44] Andrew Child: Even though would you say that Fiddler does sound American or have American influence?

[20:54] Beth Burrier: I I mean, gosh, that's a really good question. I mean, it certainly does because there are, I don't know that I want to say American influence, I want to say musical theater influence.

[21:06] Andrew Child: Okay, you know, there are recognizable, like here's a dance, here's an opening number, here's a ballad, or may it's or even theatricalized music, which arguably is musical theater is an American art form that we sort of borrowed from Europe and all these other places.

[21:26] Beth Burrier: And but I don't if if you just listen if if you listen to, I don't know, ten other musicals from from the five years around Fiddler, uh-huh, Fiddler would be more by itself than the other nine shows.

[21:44] Andrew Child: Okay.

[21:45] Beth Burrier: You know.

[21:46] Andrew Child: But then I guess I I do hear what you're saying because it's a little bit different than you know, there's a chapter on The Threepenny Opera.

[21:54] Beth Burrier: And that we can't really say that that says, here's an opening number, here's a dance break. You know, it's like that's from somewhere else.

[22:02] Andrew Child: Right.

[22:03] Beth Burrier: And that's Brecht and Germany and I mean the whole that all of that. But I think about, you know, Hello, Dolly! and Mame, those shows sound very similar.

[22:14] Andrew Child: Right.

[22:14] Beth Burrier: In in the good way. You know, you take Hello, Dolly!, Mame, Music Man, my favorite, um, and even say 1776, which is a little bit later, uh, but they're there, or and we'll we'll throw Funny Girl in there too.

[22:28] Andrew Child: You take those five shows, they're a lot closer together than Fiddler.

[22:34] Beth Burrier: In terms of sound, I think. You could throw How to Succeed in there too.

[22:40] Andrew Child: And not someone's gonna, you know, I'm gonna start getting letters about this.

[22:43] Beth Burrier: But I I feel like all of those shows are closer together as a group. If I said which one is different, Fiddler would be on the roof would absolutely be different.

[22:52] Andrew Child: Yeah, no one should be sending letters about that.

[22:54] Beth Burrier: I think that's and there's nothing to God's ear.

[22:57] Andrew Child: Yeah.

[22:58] Beth Burrier: There's nothing wrong with any of those shows or even having a cohesive sound.

[23:04] Andrew Child: Do you think have we sort of maintained that with musical theater? Because I know you've worked on more contemporary stuff as well.

[23:13] Beth Burrier: Is there still a musical theater sound, even if it's different from what we're saying is unifying How to Succeed, Funny Girl and The Music Man?

[23:22] Andrew Child: I think so.

[23:23] Beth Burrier: I absolutely as people's as as our culture changes, as what people listen to changes, then of course musical theater is going to change because it is a commercial art form.

[23:35] Andrew Child: And so people are gonna write what other people are gonna buy.

[23:40] Beth Burrier: And so if the people who have money to spend on tickets all have the 80s in their ears, then musicals are gonna sound like the 80s.

[23:50] Andrew Child: Or if we're writing for younger for the TikTok crowd, all those young people, then it's gonna sound more like that.

[24:02] Beth Burrier: And there are the thing that I love is it goes back to Rogers and Hammerstein, who said the show has to sound the same way the costumes look, the same way that the set looks, it all has to support the story.

[24:18] Andrew Child: So which is why Fiddler sounds different, because it's supporting a story that happens in the Ukraine to Orthodox Jews, you know, and Dolly and Mame are a lot closer together in terms of what's happening there.

[24:33] Andrew Child: Do you think are there shows now that musically contemporary shows musically are standouts in the way that Fiddler is that you kind of hear and you say, oh this is musical theater but it's something else. They're pulling from somewhere else. They're using some sort of different influence.

[24:54] Andrew Child: Oh Hamilton. I mean that's the that's an obvious one. Yeah. You know, but it's so it's structured so traditionally but yet it's pulling from all of these different genres including regular like golden age musical theater. Um especially in the lyrics and then um and in the heights would be another one. Apparently it is now Lynn Manuel Appreciation Day. Great on the podcast and I'm okay with that. You know what? There hits a certain point in most of these interviews where it becomes Lynn Manuel Appreciation Day. And that's my fault because I ask people, you know, who's doing different stuff now and that's that is a it's a great example. It's the big one, you know so I think come from away is another one.

[25:42] Beth Burrier: There's some really specific writing in there that is straight from Newfoundland. And if when when you go to Newfoundland and talk to folks there, they'll say yeah that's not quite what it sounds like but it's close. I mean it's theatricalized. It's the same thing with Fiddler. You take the actual like the quote real music and then you theatricalize it for the paying audience.

[26:07] Andrew Child: So sort of coming back to and I love that sort of idea from Rogers and Hammerstein the music should sound like the costumes from a musical sense, are we doing a disservice to these stories if there is a recognizable musical theater sound to the shows?

[26:29] Beth Burrier: I think it depends on the story. And and I think there's something to be said for you want to walk out of the theater humming something. You know, that you that you're walking out humming a song. That was the joke with the great with the big set-driven quote unquote set-driven shows that you're you're humming the helicopter, you're humming the chandelier.

[26:55] Beth Burrier: Which right? Which of course that's not true, but people like to say it, and it's a funny line, so here we go. Um but I think so so no, I don't think we're doing a disservice to it because that's also a hook that people can hang their hat on so they understand the show better. You know, there's a reason why character stereotypes happen, and then why it's fun to twist them.

[27:20] Andrew Child: So you take um I well, apparently I'm not gonna talk about Oklahoma, which is not my chapter, but that's okay. It's okay. But you take Curly and you think here's a leading man, and so this is what's gonna happen. And he's gonna get the girl, oh wait, he's kind of a jerk. What's happening? And so, but because people are expecting one thing, and then you can turn it, and then you're also not explaining. There's not a whole song about this is Curly, and he's a cowboy, and he's kind of the equivalent of a cowboy frat boy, and and like we don't have to explain that because we just know it.

[27:54] Beth Burrier: Right. So sometimes stereotypes can be helpful, you just have to be careful how you go about that. So they're not negative, you know. Absolutely. I'm another difference, I think, from when we talk about the other musicals around Fiddler, you know, you were mentioning Mame, you were mentioning Hello Dolly. These shows had songs that could stand outside of the show and become chart topping hits.

[28:25] Beth Burrier: Fiddler, we've already sort of talked about, we know these songs from outside of the show, but we don't, you know, we don't have Ella Fitzgerald and Nat King Cole doing album covers of them necessarily. Um there are a couple weird little covers of Fiddler songs, but why do you think we're latching on to these songs, the public and still loving them, still having them in our pop culture today?

[28:51] Andrew Child: Yeah. Um, I think they are uh they're universal, sunrise, sunset. I mean, every wedding? No, 80% of weddings, people want to, you know, sing that song. And um, and the same thing with matchmaker. This is something that that people go through that they want to find their life partner, and so the the lyric along with the melody, we latch on to that and and then we can fit it into rituals in our life, you know, as compared to so we're gonna we're gonna date the day of the podcast here, but you know, we don't talk about Bruno, which is so catchy and it's all over.

[29:40] Andrew Child: So we all know, you know, about Bruno, but how do we fit that into a ritual? How do we put that somewhere else in our lives? Because it's so specific to that moment. Right. And and so is Sunrise Sunset, so is Matchmaker and Fiddler. But like it lots of people get married. Lots of people want to find their life partner. So how does that so that transfers for us?

[30:08] Beth Burrier: Hmm. No, I I worked for a catering company uh for a while, and more weddings, the father of the bride gets up and starts singing sunrise sunset than not. So I think you're absolutely correct, you know. It's uh but then matchmaker, that has to be one of the greatest songs, uh, just lyrically so witty in all of all time ever. Great song. Are there other songs in the show that you feel like have really had their moment that we've really latched on to that keep this show in the zeitgeist?

[30:43] Beth Burrier: Oh, gee. I'm a I'm a bad one to ask that question too because I know all of them, and I think they're all great. Um I mean, tradition and the you know, the arm, the the the choreography there, I think that's that there's always there's always room in a Saturday night live sketch for that. I think people get that.

[31:01] Andrew Child: Um gosh, what's another one? I think Do You Love Me is very universal. I don't know that people I don't know that that's latched into the zeitgeist.

[31:14] Beth Burrier: Okay, but I I think that scene because it was a scene that got turned into a song and it's brilliant musical theater writing there. Um certainly the bottle dance.

[31:25] Andrew Child: Okay.

[31:26] Beth Burrier: That's pretty I I did a lot of reason just randomly because I'm obsessed with the bottle dance, the bottle dance into life. I love those two things so much. Um I was trying to find out if they're if the if bottle dancing is really a thing, uh huh. I thought like is this does this happen? Is this from Fiddler?

[31:46] Beth Burrier: And everything I could find is literally the Jerome Robbins choreography. Wow. So like you go you you I would find a video of somebody's orthodox or somebody's Jewish wedding not necessarily orthodox and I'm like oh here's a bottle wait this is just the fiddler choreography.

[32:01] Andrew Child: Wow yeah which was crazy.

[32:04] Beth Burrier: So I don't know and maybe I'm just not looking in the right places but that has certainly that is very interesting.

[32:11] Andrew Child: Yeah so I'm curious when you do this with uh College Light Opera Company um you know, I I've been there a couple times to the theater in Falmouth um very cool very exciting space with a lot of history um but you'll know kind of what I'm getting at here did you work with the full orchestrations?

[32:34] Beth Burrier: We we did are you kidding no no uh we are very fortunate that clock fields a full pit wow yeah so I we had 19 in the pit we synthesized the accordion book okay um and we didn't have uh is it a guitar a banjo a ballet so something one of those um books was gone but we had everything else wow yeah it's pretty conducting that very different probably from what you're normally doing because it doesn't open with a big overture it opens with the fiddler but then can you walk us through what that feels like to start the show?

[33:20] Beth Burrier: Oh, yeah. Oh, it's so much fun to conduct uh a full pit like that. Because you, you know, you if I if I walk it all the way back to the beginning of the evening and I get we get tossed in through the side door there at the theater and get a little conductor bow, which is very awkward, but also very exciting.

[33:39] Beth Burrier: I just want to get in the pit, and I'm convinced every night I'm gonna fall down. So um now I've said it and it'll probably happen. Oh well. Um but then you hop down there and and the mus the musicians are all college students too. So they're so excited, and the cast is excited. Everybody, you can just feel it, and then you're starting with just that little vamp.

[34:00] Beth Burrier: It's so much fun, and you're watching your Teviah, and and your adrenaline is running, and we're real under-rehearsed at clock. For those of you listening to the podcast, we do nine shows in 11 weeks. So we've had six days to put together Fiddler on the roof, it's a lot, and um, and you're watching your Teviya, and you're just hoping that the vamp lines up and you're watching the whole cast because they're all doing gonna do the choreo together, and then you get oh chunk, oh, chunk tradition, and it's it's the most fun you can have.

[34:37] Andrew Child: That's it's really really astonishingly fun.

[34:40] Beth Burrier: I think another fun thing about Fiddler, if we have permission to go full nerd mode here, oh yeah, stop listening. If you don't care about Fiddler, skip to the next episode. Can we talk about the transition music in Fiddler?

[34:54] Beth Burrier: It has to be some of the best. It it's so good, it's so good, and and it's good and it's flexible because you know, all transition music in every musical is hard because it's always written for Broadway, right?

[35:11] Beth Burrier: And so there you are in some theater that doesn't have hydraulics, that doesn't have a giant stage, that doesn't have a fly system. And so do you have to create transition music? Do you have to change it? Do you have to in what do you have to do? And the the stuff in Fiddler is just beautiful, and it's so seamless, it doesn't feel tacked in.

[35:33] Beth Burrier: It doesn't feel like, oh, we need 16 bars here. Let's just go back and repeat this. And not that there's anything wrong with that. No, I'm just I'm such a big fan of it. I love, I've seen so many, you know, community theater, high school productions of Fiddler, and it's just, you know, yeah, take a little longer to spin that house. Why don't you? Because you know what? We can vamp this again. I'm in heaven.

[35:56] Beth Burrier: I had a friend actually message me who knew I talk about it all the time, how much I like this, um, who messaged me and said the the Yiddish cast recording has the um the transition music in there, um which is a huge day for me uh to be able to listen to that whenever I want.

[36:13] Andrew Child: So is this a show that you feel like is important to be doing with college students, with young people studying musical theater?

[36:28] Beth Burrier: Yes and no, because there it's so generational. So you know, we do it at clock for a lot of different reasons, but if I were gonna do it, I would want to guest in the Teviah, which in a way you're like, but you're robbing the students of the great of the big role, but there's something about having an actual older human being in that role that I think can be important.

[36:59] Beth Burrier: That said, I think that the material in scene study class and in voice lessons, it is a workshop of how to go from scene into song into dialogue over underscoring back into song into dance. It has all of the things, and it's so well written that, and I think this is why it's a great high school show, too. Even though, like for a college production with like a five or six week rehearsal process, and then you're gonna run it at a college. I might want to get a guest Tevye.

[37:31] Andrew Child: Okay.

[37:32] Beth Burrier: But for you know, a high school or something, this material is so good that they are gonna learn from it, and the show is gonna be great, no matter what, because it's a great show. There are so many musicals that are fun to do and they're amazing, but then they have structural problems, or there are uh there they're just whatever challenges in them that make me nervous sometimes for high school students. But a show like Fiddler, you know, Fiddler, Guys and Dolls, Music Man, they're big old war horses for a reason, and they can take that sort of super young 15-year-old actor. I don't want to say abuse, but you know, the person that doesn't quite know yet how to do it, nor should they, they're 15. There's no reason for them to know. They can learn a lot from this.

[38:24] Beth Burrier: Well, and when we talk about high school productions of Fiddler, let's just thank God for the role of Yente, you know, like let's talk about you know, the president of the drama club, she can't really carry a tune. Everyone loves her, you know, it's like this is your moment, this is your time. You're about to steal this show. Like take it and run. Um Yente and Fruma-Sarah both. There's so many great roles, so many great roles in the show.

[38:53] Andrew Child: Yeah.

[38:54] Beth Burrier: It's just it's good stuff and opportunities for everyone.

[38:59] Andrew Child: Oh, absolutely. It's you got your dance roles, you've got the speaking roles, which is another great thing. It's a great book show. So if you have people who can't sing, it's like, hey, yeah, there's a bunch of great parts. Um Laser Wolf, uh, and um the bartender guy, what is his name? Um, right, at the wedding gets up and does the speech.

[39:24] Beth Burrier: Yeah, there's such good stuff in this show. Do you have other shows that sort of perennially come to mind when you know you're working with young people all over the map? Do you have other shows like this that you think are pushing people that any young performers out there listening should have on their radar to like bring in?

[39:46] Beth Burrier: Hmm. Uh um, I'm a fan of Guys and Dolls.

[39:50] Andrew Child: Okay.

[39:51] Beth Burrier: There's a lot of it's hard because the dialogue is so specific, and the but the songs are fabulous, you know, and and singable. Not else.

[40:09] Andrew Child: Yeah, I say Guys and Dolls, and I think Guys and Dolls.

[40:11] Beth Burrier: Yeah.

[40:11] Andrew Child: Yeah, but then I think, ooh, but is it because if you don't get the accents right and all the timing, but then it's the same thing with Fiddler. There's there's stuff in there.

[40:20] Beth Burrier: Um what else is a show with lots of stuff? Well, we just did Legally Blonde here at Manhattanville, and that was a there's a lot happening in that show too. That's hardly a it's contempt more contemporary, but boy, there was something for everybody in that show.

[40:37] Andrew Child: I'm actually I'm glad you bring that up because um talk about writing a letter. Um, when I first was coming on to this project and Legally Blonde wasn't on the list of 50, I was like, all right, who picked these? Who picked these? Just because I think let's talk about the like the zeitgeist, let's talk about shows that are in the moment. Let's talk about shows that paved the way for other shows. And I don't even care. Like, I don't think it's this artistic marvel. I don't think it's the artistic equivalent of Fiddler on the Roof, but I do think we should talk about Legally Blonde.

[41:12] Beth Burrier: It's a really fun show, and and there are if you're talking about shows with lots of opportunities for lots of people, that's it. It's really hard to excerpt it, it's really hard to like do little bits and pieces of it for auditions and whatnot. But that scene, the serious scene that serious duel, that's really funny. And comedy can be it's difficult, you know? So that that kind of stuff can be great to work on.

[41:37] Beth Burrier: Um and I I was thinking, why did why do I go to golden age shows when I think about opportunities for lots of people? Well, because shows have gotten smaller.

[41:47] Andrew Child: Okay.

[41:47] Beth Burrier: So if you want to cast 30 people from your collegiate program, or 30 people in your high school, you can't do Next to Normal.

[41:57] Andrew Child: Right.

[41:58] Beth Burrier: You know, and and so you're looking at shows that come from a time when budgets were different, and it just there was a dancing chorus and a singing chorus. So, you know, that that's it's it's interesting. One of our one of the first episodes is Show Boat and talking with Susan Stroman. She within her career within her lifetime, talking about oh well, when I did Show Boat, but it's different now, and even to when she was directing and choreographing The Producers, which again is a lifetime ago now, and the stuff she's doing now, she's like, they want me to do my big stuff, and they tell me you have a 13-member ensemble and principal actors, you know.

[42:43] Beth Burrier: Um different from when she got to work at the Met when she got to have a singing ensemble and a line of dancing girls and a line of dancing guys and whatever she wanted, you know. Um it's changed a lot, and I mean you can see that I'm A Chorus Line, A Chorus Line's in the book, right?

[43:05] Andrew Child: Um, yes, I think so, yeah.

[43:07] Beth Burrier: Yeah, because that's when they're talking about that is how few people he's casting in A Chorus Line, and how now they don't they can't just dance anymore, they also have to act. And how is that changing? And that was mid-70s, but you know, you you think about Oklahoma, Carousel, all of the all the shows we've been talking about in the golden age, these big enormous casts, and now that you just don't, it's just not there anymore.

[43:34] Andrew Child: Right, and even the shows that we think of now, the Casey Nicholaw stuff that we think of as a big ensemble show, so much of that is doubling up, trying to create this illusion of more people than are actually there, which is yeah, yeah.

[43:50] Beth Burrier: Music Man is very small.

[43:53] Andrew Child: Really?

[43:54] Beth Burrier: I I think it's I was expecting a much larger cast.

[43:59] Andrew Child: Are you talking about like the current the current one?

[44:01] Beth Burrier: Yeah, the current revival.

[44:03] Andrew Child: Yeah, yeah.

[44:04] Beth Burrier: I I thought this is I mean it's not it's not a bad thing. I just was surprised at how much doubling there was and how and here again, not not a bad thing, but I thought, wow, I was expecting sort of Hello Dolly sized.

[44:20] Andrew Child: Okay.

[44:20] Beth Burrier: And it was I think it now I say that, and maybe if I went and actually looked at Ib Dib, it would be exactly the same.

[44:27] Andrew Child: Well, because sometimes you the show ends and everyone's coming up for the curtain call, and you're like, where is everyone else? Sometimes they really do fool you, you know.

[44:35] Beth Burrier: You really think you just watched way more people.

[44:38] Andrew Child: Um but and Music Man has a zillion kids.

[44:42] Beth Burrier: Like a zillion kids. It's the adult actors that I'm like, wait, aren't there more pick little ladies than this?

[44:50] Andrew Child: Do you think has that affected your job? You working with musical theater education. Does that change what you have to do, what you have to prepare people for?

[45:03] Beth Burrier: Sure, because they have to be ready. It's not enough for and I mean this is I'm I mean I'm old, but I'm not that old. This has been true since I've been doing it. Um it's not enough to just be a beautiful singer anymore. Because you have to be a beautiful singer who moves and speaks lines well and can act, or you know, if you're a killer dancer, that's great, but you also have to be able to carry this entire track. So much more is asked of the musical theater performers and artists than has been asked in the past.

[45:36] Andrew Child: And that is a double-edged sword. There are good things about it and bad things about it, but it makes it hard.

[45:43] Beth Burrier: What do you think? The if you know am I asking, do you have any good things or bad things that come to mind?

[45:49] Beth Burrier: Um, I think it's good for people to look at every single part of their creative energy. That's not a really like new agey and philosophical, but no, it's okay. If you're never pushed to learn to dance, then maybe you don't learn to dance. But then you discover so much more about yourself as an artist as you learn that. Even if you never get to be good at it.

[46:14] Andrew Child: Right.

[46:14] Beth Burrier: You know, even if you're never gonna be in A Chorus Line, I think learning art is always a good thing. And finding what's special about yourself as a human, because what I like to say to my students is skill sets are skill sets. Everybody is gonna be able to sing this high note, everybody's gonna be able to turn a clean double, okay, and what whatever it is. But what makes you special as a human is what is gonna get you work. What you can bring into the room that nobody else can bring in, your creative spark, whatever that is.

[46:53] Andrew Child: And so I think that's a good thing. I think the bad thing is people freak out and start trying to do a bunch of stuff that they shouldn't be doing or they're not ready to do yet, or they overperform in an audition room. You know, I'm I'm always saying don't do things in an audition that you aren't prepared to do eight times a week for a year.

[47:14] Beth Burrier: Oh, I see what you're saying.

[47:16] Andrew Child: You see what I mean? Just like physically. Like if you can do one, I don't know, back handspring, but only one and only on a good day, don't tell them you can do it eight times a week.

[47:28] Beth Burrier: Right.

[47:29] Andrew Child: Just to get the track. Right. Because if they if you're awesome, you'll they'll figure out how to use you anyway.

[47:35] Beth Burrier: You know?

[47:37] Andrew Child: What did we talk about auditions? But what I don't know. What button? Everything always turns into audition.

[47:42] Beth Burrier: It's usual theater. It always ends up being an auditions class.

[47:44] Andrew Child: Always that's totally fine.

[47:47] Beth Burrier: That's totally fine. Um, thank you so much for talking with me today about everything we covered, because this was just covering the span of everything. And I just this is one interview that I do want to just highlight that uh listeners should check out this chapter. It is very meticulously researched. It really will teach you a lot about this show, put it in context for you.

[48:13] Andrew Child: Thank you, Beth. That's very kind.

[48:15] Beth Burrier: Absolutely. And thank you, listeners, for joining us. Please make sure to purchase a copy of Fifty Key Stage Musicals by visiting Routledge.com or by clicking in today's show description. If you want to learn more about Fiddler on the Roof, please also review the links in the below description. I'm Andrew Child, and thank you for listening to Fifty Key Stage Musicals, the podcast.