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[0:16] Robert W. Schneider: Hi, I'm Robert W. Schneider, and welcome to Fifty Key Stage Musicals, the podcast, a companion piece to the Routledge Press publication Fifty Key Stage Musicals, which is available for purchase by going to Routledge.com or clicking the link below in today's show description.

[0:32] Robert W. Schneider: Today's episode focuses on chapter 25, The Wiz.

[0:37] Robert W. Schneider: And with us today is the co-author of that chapter, Jerrell L. Henderson.

[0:40] Robert W. Schneider: Uh, Mr. Henderson is a director and puppeteer. Recent directing credits include at the Griffin Theatre, um, there's a Jeff Award nomination for direction and best play for his work at the Griffin, Walnut Street Theatre, the Goodman Theatre, Steppenwolf Theatre, and Looking Glass Theatre.

[0:56] Robert W. Schneider: He received an MFA in directing from Northwestern University, is a member of the Lincoln Center Directors Lab back in 2012, an artistic associate of Black Lives Black Words, and a Henson Foundation sponsored participant at the Eugene O'Neill Theater Center National Puppetry Conference back in 2020.

[1:14] Robert W. Schneider: Jerrell, I am so happy that you're here with us today to talk about The Wiz.

[1:18] Robert W. Schneider: So my first question for you is what makes The Wiz a key musical?

[1:26] Jerrell L. Henderson: So The Wiz, I, you know, we argue um and the chapter is a key musical because of the again. It's like what's the long-term, you know, if every show, every every show that makes it to Broadway, because that's not an easy thing to do, um, every play that makes it to Broadway is like putting a stone in a pond. And we know the lasting effect it has based on the ripples, the ripples out, right? And so when you look at a musical like The Wiz, the ripple effect is lasting. There are like large-scale ripples, which you know we'll get into in terms of like major pop cultural influences. And then there are minor ripples. Um, which is to say, like me, which and this is a true statement. The reason why I do theater today is because of The Wiz.

And I know that I'm not the only performer um who feels that way, particularly but not limited to the African American community. Um I understand the connection. I understand I have I have some understanding of what it means because of how it has impacted me and how I have seen it impact other people along my journey in theater, um, as well as in film, understanding the history of the film. You don't have the film without the original show, and the aftershocks of the film, which are global. Um, and some might even argue international. Um, and so that's what makes it. It's like people are still talking about it. A few years ago, there was a TV live production of The Wiz. It finds its way into uh popular discussion, Quest Love Supreme, um, which is my favorite podcast, Quest Love's podcast, in which there's the you know, Stephanie Mills episode in which they get to speak about that process in detail.

You have the documentaries on Geoffrey Holder, in which you know, he speaks about his experience as the costume designer and then director. I mean, it's it's lasting. It's lasting. Um, and The Wiz is special because in my journey, there have been a lot of, you know, I am African American, a so-called minority in America, and there are, you know, it wasn't a popular musical at first. Um, with the critics who are predominantly white American, it was not a popular film um with the critics, predominantly white critics. I have run into a lot of resistance with people who just don't get it, but The Wiz is still here, it's still strong, it still has a major following, and um it has a lot to do with the African American community.

That's like, no, this is ours. And if no one else is gonna champion this show, we are because the show is inherently American, coming from the L. Frank Baum novel, The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, Revival's 1900. And it is inherently African American with influences from Motown, which is the most obvious, but also really deep and strong blues and soul. Um, blues and soul influences. I remember uh years ago, this is before I moved to Chicago, someone pointed out that like they're like, Oh, yeah, The Wiz is a ballad musical. Like, what do you mean? Most of the songs are ballads. There's not a lot of up tempo songs in The Wiz. And I'm like, oh, you're kind of right. You know, the the intro to uh what would I do if I could feel boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom?

That's a blues rip, man. Um, you know, the gospel of no bad news, and I love the distinction between the Broadway musical no bad news, both sung by the great, the great, the great Mabel King. Um, the original Broadway cast, which is gospel boom bum-um boom, but um, very churchy, and then the film version, which is like New Orleans jazz, bum bum bum bum bum, bum bada bada bum bum bum. You know, these are the I mean, this is what my culture, uh coming from the African American community, this is what we brought to the American table. So within The Wiz, we really get an opportunity to live within our our American schizophrenic wholeness, you know what I mean? It is one of the things that helps it come together.

Um, and so that's like that's why it's a key musical. It changed the way Broadway operated, it changed the way we looked at African American shows. It's one of the first musicals, if not the first, um, which lives in a wholly African American context, but is still fantastical, so that you don't necessarily have to be African American to play these parts. Um, but unlike, you know, I guess more the fantastical runes from the past, you look at oh, House of Flowers. Um, the point, hmm, what do you say? The point isn't necessarily to escape the issues of what it means to be African American, it's to just deal with them in a different context, you know, so it's a bit more savvy, it's a bit more playful.

[7:11] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah. Let's go back to the early 1970s, um, right before The Wiz is about to come out. Can you tell us a little bit about the African American community's representation on Broadway in that period?

[7:23] Jerrell L. Henderson: So we have an understanding of what The Wiz was doing at that time. So we compare into that context. Yeah. The 1970s is a really exciting era in American musical theater when it comes to African American musical theater because it's it's when we were in vogue again. Um, African American culture goes in and out of vogue in the larger scale of American popular culture. And so it's not that we stopped performing on Broadway. There was, of course, Hallelujah Baby in the 60s and House of Flowers in the 50s. Um, but by the time you get to the 1970s, we're post-Hair, and Hair does a lot to change the landscape. And I know that you you talk about that uh um because it introduces rock into the Broadway vernacular, um, you know, the Broadway show tool vernacular.

So you you start out with musicals like and I forget which came first um right now, but you have like Pearly, you know what I mean? Which I think is 70. Um, but don't quote me on that. Um you have plays like Curly, which is the you know, the Ozzie Davis um retell, the retelling of Ozzie Davis's Pearly Victorious to musical theater, which takes a look at Jim Crow segregation and the South. Um, you also have a year or so later, uh, the musical Raisin, which is the musical version of A Raisin in the Sun, um, which is about, you know, this African American family on the south side of Chicago in the 1950s, who you know want a better life, and one person sees that uh uh sees their way out as you know to be economically driven, the son, and then the mother.

It's it's still economic, but it's based in property and land. We gotta get a house, and that becomes the main conflict of that place. So you do have stories um that are beginning to pop up that predominantly feature African American characters. The point is that they're African American characters again. It's again like House of Flowers or Carmen Jones. It could be about anybody. It doesn't really matter that they're black. No, in Pearly and in Raisin, it matters that they're black. Um so this is the world that we we find ourselves entering into in the beginning of the 1970s.

[9:37] Jerrell L. Henderson: And so, wait, before I keep going, did that answer your question?

[9:41] Robert W. Schneider: It did, yes.

[9:42] Robert W. Schneider: Because what what is the world that The Wiz is about to enter into? And what you you had said, which is that the African American experience is back in vogue at this time. So that helps bring bring a safer space for The Wiz. I don't know, and a more accessible space for The Wiz. It means that your chances of getting work produced go up.

[10:07] Jerrell L. Henderson: Okay. You know, there's there's never a guarantee, but peep people are open. You know, there are a lot of times in American history where people just aren't open. You know, black shows don't sell. You know, all the things that you hear, all the same tired speeches that you hear about why people just can't do the damn thing that we're all supposed to be doing and we say we want to do. Don't get me started. So unfortunately, the the the idea that quote unquote black shows don't sell, this is not just a recent concept that we're hearing from so many white theater producers. We've heard this now for decades and decades earlier, just coming out of the mouths of different people. Coming out of the mouths of different people. Okay. Yep.

[10:51] Robert W. Schneider: So now let's go to the actual production of The Wiz. Can you tell us a little bit about the genesis of the show or some of the original cast members who many are still with us today and still iconically working? But I leave that to you.

[11:12] Jerrell L. Henderson: Um, so here's what I know. Um, The Wiz, the idea of The Wiz is often credited to Ken Harper, who's the producer, the late great Ken Harper, who was a DJ in New York, and uh Charlie Smalls, who uh the late great Charlie Smalls, who uh is a lyricist, and so they want to do a retelling of L. Frank Baum's The Wonderful Wizard of Oz. So The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, for those who may not know, because I don't want to assume that everyone does know, um, is a children's novel, and that's an important distinction. Um, because a lot of children's books have very simplistic language. Um, it's maybe 20 pages, maybe, you know what I mean? But The Wizard of Oz, you know, even though the chapters are shorter, has like 20 sub chapters to it.

So it's a children's novel, and because it was written in 1900, the language that's used, um, it's quite antiquated, and there's some really big words um that you're not used to seeing in the, you know, well, when I was a child in the second half of the 20th century, bongings of the 21st. Um, so L. Frank Baum writes this American fairy tale, and that's a big deal. Because fairy tales at that point in the 1900s are thought of as old world, Hans Christian Andersen, Aesop, so on. So he writes this in 1900, it becomes a hit. He produces a play, he produces some short films. Of course, um, at least in American popular culture, we're aware of the 1939 film, starring Judy Garland and Ray Bolger and Bert Lahr, uh, you know, which, you know, and the MGM, and it's black and white at the beginning, and then color and it's very dynamic.

So this story has been living in American popular culture for about 70 some years by the time the folks who write The Wiz come along, but they're gonna do something different. They're gonna put it in a specifically African American context. William F. Brown, who was not African American, is brought in to write the book of the musical, and the musical is written in slang, slang that was popular in the 1970s.

[13:20] Jerrell L. Henderson: Um, the original director who was hired is Gilbert Moses, who, if you have not heard his name, um, go ahead and do a Google search. He, I mean, uh, all these folks were groundbreaking personalities. Gilbert Moses is brought on as the director, uh, George Faison is brought on as choreographer, and Geoffrey Holder, who was originally slated to be a director, is brought on to be the costume designer. So almost from the beginning, you kind of have this, it's kind of like a patchwork or a collage of personalities coming together, seeking to remake or revisit something that has always been a part of American culture. Um, it's really, I mean, you might call it the first sample musical. You know, if you look at how sampling would work in rap later, where you're just like, I'm gonna take a little bit of this, I'm gonna take a little bit of that, and I'm gonna put my own spin on it and create something new, right?

That's the idea of what you're working with with The Wiz. Um, I do not know how, but I know that Gilbert Moses is eventually replaced by the late great Geoffrey Holder, who uh is not only the costume designer, but goes on to become the director. George Faison stays on as the choreographer. Um, there is a young girl by the name of Stephanie Mills, who uh has won by this point. She had won Apollo Amateur Hour. She won the Apollo Amateur Hour's, uh, uh, Amateur Night, excuse me, six weeks in a row. Amazing voice. She goes, she finds herself into the Borova community through Maggie Flynn. So she's in the original production of Maggie Flynn of the chorus. I love, I love the fact that I was like, wow, I never knew that.

Listen to the choral work, and you're like, well, Stephanie Mills is somewhere in there. Um, and so she's brought on as Dorothy. Um, I forget the name of the original Scarecrow. I think it was Stu Gillam, but eventually uh, Hinton Battle, who is in his mid to late teens, is grown with the Scarecrow. Um, the great Tiger Haynes, who by that point was a Broadway vet. Uh, he's in New Faces of I forget, it's '52 or '56. I cannot remember. One is the Eartha Kitt one and the other one is the Tiger Haynes, but I can't remember. Um, because I only know these shows by the African American people in them. Um, Ted Ross, the great Ted Ross, who was in Raisin, is brought on to play the role of the Cowardly Lion.

Uh, and the play goes into rehearsal and it is in tryouts, and it has a really troubled time. You know, I think it's in DC and it makes its way to New York. It does not do well. It sells okay, but it doesn't do well critically. And so the production kind of has to go from there, right? The I know that on opening night, a uh, closing notice was posted um at the theater on opening night because they did not see the show. The reception that everyone expected to receive didn't necessarily happen.

[16:30] Robert W. Schneider: And so then you have people who start to get nervous.

[16:33] Jerrell L. Henderson: And very quickly, the reception. Do you mean an audience reception or a critical reception? Or is it both?

[16:40] Robert W. Schneider: Thank you for clarifying that.

[16:41] Jerrell L. Henderson: I really mean a critical reception. The critics were really, really um indifferent when you go back and read it. And later, um, some admitted that they just they couldn't connect to it. I mean, you have one critic who's like, there's obvious, you know, he was it was clear to him, because it was a white man, it was clear to him that there was something special happening, but he couldn't find his way into it. But one of the reasons why he couldn't find his way into it is because he never had to. Uh, you know, I imagine it was the first time a show was performed where he wasn't the center of what everybody was hoping. And so you had a lot of folks saying that there's nothing there, there's not a lot there.

And and really, you begin to see a connection in some of the feedback that you had from older African American musicals. The singing and the dancing is fantastic, the story is not. And that is a that is a label. It's an indifferent and racist label that goes back to the days of Williams and Walker in the late 1800s, going into the early 1900s to Shuffle Along in 2016 because that's the 2016 Shuffle Along that was the New York Times review. The singing and the dancing was good and the book was it. And it was like, wow, I don't even think this person realizes that they're like stepping into like a classic racist misstep. But that's the way it is, and those are the folks who were hired to write those pieces, and so then the show becomes in danger.

[18:07] Robert W. Schneider: Sorry, I was making a note.

[18:08] Jerrell L. Henderson: I apologize.

[18:09] Robert W. Schneider: Oh no, I'm taking notes during this.

[18:13] Jerrell L. Henderson: I see you, which is great. So then how do you how did they take this particular show and make it the hit that it became? If you're if the power of that moment was the critics, and this was a time I think we can re I don't know if if this still happens today, where like the New York Times pretty much could make or break a show. I don't know if that happened so much today in the 21st century. Um, how do they overcome this? Is really my question.

[18:39] Jerrell L. Henderson: So this is part of what makes The Wiz special, and this is part of what makes it, it's not what makes it memorable, but it's what sets it up to be memorable, if that makes sense. Because there are a lot of shows that had similar issues in terms of getting started, but The Wiz is a different scenario because it is specifically rooted in the African American experience. So basically, um, the producers didn't give up on it. Hi, producers. There's a message if a show doesn't immediately do well, invest in it more. You believed in it at some point, you believed in this enough to put in all this money. And then, but you know, so the producers, the uh, 20th Century Fox didn't give up on it, and so instead of abandoning the show, they actually invested more in it.

And so with this money, you know, Black people begin to do what Black people have always done when the work that we're producing is under assault by the so-called larger majority, you know, uh predominantly white institution that is American theater, word of mouth, word of mouth, word of mouth, word of mouth, word of mouth, word of mouth, go to the churches, go to the lodges, go to the, you know, go to the beauty stores, go to the barbershops. We will get the word out, and not because not only is there something special happening, but there's something special happening that's about to go down because of systemic racism. And so, because 20th Century Fox, you know, uh put more money and resources behind it, um, the uh, Ken Harper, the other folks who are working on it, I mean, even and this is in our chapter, um, even you know, Stephanie Mills' mom, you know, they went to a big church in Brooklyn and Cornerstone Baptist, uh, Baptist Church.

And you know, her mom, she's like, I saw my mom on the phone making calls, letting the church folk know. Listen, we gotta show up in support because there's something really special happening in the larger white majority, you know, system is about to take it down, and so that's when you begin to see a difference in turnout. You begin to see a difference in who's buying tickets, and African American really came in and championed that. Once that happened, the larger majority could catch on.

[21:00] Jerrell L. Henderson: And here's what makes The Wiz. Here's here's the first thing that I would argue. You know, everything else is is um set up, it's it's it's prelude, you know, everything else is set up, but the moment in which 20th Century Fox makes the choice to infuse more resources along with the word of mouth, you have a commercial that's produced.

[21:24] Robert W. Schneider: Broadway commercial.

[21:25] Jerrell L. Henderson: Oh, thank you. Yes, a television commercial that is produced. And I'm not sure how often that had been done in the past. Um, and so now the image, and you also have this really great song, "Ease on Down the Road." You know, the song is catchy and it's fun, and we all remember "Follow the Yellow Brick Road" from The Wizard of Oz. This is the Black version of that. And so now you have the Geoffrey Holder's beautiful costumes. I mean, come on. Afrofuturism, man. Afrofuturism in the mid-1970s, and it is fantastic. It is out of this world, literally. Um, or maybe not literally, but you know what I mean. Because this commercial is produced, you now have something different, right? You now have a different kind of energy.

So now suburban families can be brought in. Now families that uh, you know, maybe didn't go to church but live in predominantly African American communities can see this image of Black people in The Wizard of Oz and be enchanted by it. Other folks who may not be in the African American community can see this image of Black people in The Wizard of Oz and be like, wait, what is this? This looks kind of cool. And so then you start to have audiences that are really drawn through curiosity and American the American ingenuity that was The Wizard of Oz becoming The Wiz, right? Again, that patchwork, that collage. One of the things that we're we're we're really, really, I would argue that we're as Americans, we're really obsessed with identity because it's one of the things that we're all wrestling with.

The story of how we came here, whether it be we were brought here, you know, as chattel, or you came here because your family was dying of a famine, you know, and then what does it mean once you're here in that old world versus the new world? And so the things that we come up with as Americans is something that we can all share. The original Oz is part of that. So then The Wiz could build on that. You have a new entity of American entertainment that is both African American but not rooted in African American oppression, like Pearly, like Raisin, like Hallelujah Baby. Uh, you also had in the early '70s, Ain't Supposed to Die in Natural Death by Melvin Van Peebles, which took a look at the inner city, right?

Because, you know, both Raisin and Pearly deal with uh predominantly uh middle-class values. What does it mean to have, you know, these things that we don't have where Ain't Supposed to Die in Natural Death was like this is what life is like now. So you begin to have this swirling of culture that culminates in an original piece of Americana. There's an image, one of my favorite images. If I can find it, I'll send it to you of Margaret Hamilton greeting Margaret, Margaret Hamilton, who played the Wicked Witch of the West in the 1939 film, is greeting Mabel King, who is the Wicked Witch of the West in The Wiz. And it's one of my absolute favorite photos because both Margaret Hamilton and Mabel King look, it's they're looking into each other's eyes.

Mabel King is in her, you know, Evillene costume, and they're both aesthetically happy because they understand that connection. You look at when The Wiz went on to win seven Tony Awards, including Best Musical, and Ray Bolger is the one, uh, Ray Bolger, who played the Scarecrow in the 1939 film, is the one who presents the award for directing to Geoffrey Holder. And as they come up, you know, they're playing "Ease on Down the Road." Ray Bolger can't hear music and not dance. And so he begins to do his Scarecrow dance. Geoffrey Holder comes up and does his version of the Scarecrow dance and they dance together. We have a new version of Americana. We have been able to join and connect through myth, rooted in African American music and culture. That had never been done that way before.

[25:26] Robert W. Schneider: And now let's look at the movie version of The Wiz, which is also very seminal. Uh, tell us a little bit about the movie and how it differs from the stage show.

[25:38] Jerrell L. Henderson: And on a personal note, do you prefer the stage version or do you prefer the movie version?

[25:44] Robert W. Schneider: That'll be the last part. That'll be the last part of this question. And listen, the some people are like, I don't pick favorites, or I find them both artistically equal. Great. But let's talk, tell me about the movie version first, and then we'll talk about your opinion on it.

[25:59] Jerrell L. Henderson: Yeah. Gotcha. Okay, so the film version, which uh comes is uh through Motown, uh is uh generally holds on to like the music and the general idea of the musical, because the musical, The Wiz is the story of the L. Frank Baum story, but transitioned into an African-American um African-American vernacular, really, because the context more or less remains the same. She's a little girl who lives on a farm, she's taken by a tornado to this magic land, she has all these adventures, and then she goes back home. That's the original story, and that's The Wiz. So a lot of people, myself included, who saw the film first were a little taken aback the first time we experienced the musical because the film was so ingrained inside of us in terms of what The Wiz was.

[26:50] Jerrell L. Henderson: When we found out that it was the other way, it was like, oh wow, it was kind of a culture shock. So The Wiz and this, you know, I don't know why they did the changes that they did. But The Wiz directed by 1978, directed by Sydney LeMay, and the script by Joel Schumacher. If any Batman and Robin fans out there, you can see Mr. Schumacher's work on display. He put nipples on the scarecrow. That's his thing. No, no, that's the thing about the batsuit and all that nonsense. Also remind people at this time, and I'm so curious about this, but Sydney LeMay was also probably one of the greatest drama directors of cinema. So things like Network, things like Murder on the Orient Express, Dog Day Afternoon.

So it's interesting that they go to him and they go, Do you want to do a musical? But that's neither here nor there. I'm sorry. So I apologize. No, no. What does the movie do differently than the stage version? You say the stage version opens up and she's a farm girl in Kansas. How does this movie version open up? Or where is she in the beginning of the movie?

[28:09] Jerrell L. Henderson: Yeah. Here's what the film does that I think is really, really, really cool that the musical does not do. It puts it in a more urban context. Because the context of the musical, like the original story, is very rural. You know, it takes place in farmland, whereas the film takes place in Harlem. The Dorothy character is not a little girl who's lost; she's a young adult who's trying to find her way. She's in her mid-20s, which is actually not a bad place to put a character who doesn't know where they want to go. Because when you're in your, at least with my experience in my early 20s, I was still figuring out life. It's like, you know, at 40, I look back at myself in my 20s and I'm like, how in the world did I think I was an adult?

How did my siblings have children in their 20s? I was like, because you're still so young. So it puts it in an urban context. We're in Harlem. But Oz, as opposed to being a fantastical land, is a specifically urban, fantastical land. So in the land of Oz, the first witch that she meets is a numbers runner. You know, the yellow brick road is a literal physical road, but it's also taxis which will never stop for you. Hello. No cab will stop for them in that film. You know, the tin man, you know, the scarecrow is found in a vacant lot. I could relate to that in the area that I grew up in in South Philadelphia, because I grew up in a very nakedly urban inner city context, right? I grew up in what my cousin told me when I was 12 that we lived in a ghetto.

I was like, really? I've heard so many horrible things about ghettos. We live in a ghetto? He's like, well, that's what it means with a very small enclosed, you know, like our world is essentially like five blocks consisting almost exclusively of black people, you know, who are working poor. That's what that means, bro. So it's in the, you know, the scarecrow's in a vacant lot. The tin man is in a vacant abandoned amusement park, and the lion is found as you know, he has hidden inside of one of the lions in front of a museum. So these are things that if you live in a city like Philadelphia where I grew up, like New York, you can relate to to some extent. So that's probably the biggest difference between the film and the musical.

[30:36] Jerrell L. Henderson: Oh, and also the change of the scarecrow song. In the musical, the scarecrow sings a song called I Was Born on the Day Before Yesterday, written by Charlie Smalls, really lovely laid back gospel tune. I like that song a lot. Smooth and Hit and Battle's vocals are just, I mean, come on, man, you're just so smooth. Whereas in the film, it's an up-tempo number, a funk disco number called You Can't Win, which was written specifically for Michael Jackson, the great late great Michael Jackson who played the scarecrow in the film. And Michael, which I mean, it's just for lack of a better term, off the wall. Pun absolutely intended. You know what I mean? I mean, I think at the end, at the end of the hit You Can't Win, he does a blues riff.

And every time I watch it, I'm like, see, that's Michael Jackson before he went totally pop. You can get out. Woo! Oh, the game. No, no, no. I mean, rooted in African American blues music. So though, you know, and of course, Quincy Jones does the soundtrack which becomes nominated for an Academy Award. He builds on the music in the show and expands it. You know what I mean? So the Emerald City number, you know, because in the musical, it's kind of like this really cool Vogue number, but in the film, it's an extravagant vogue number. It is epically extravagant. It is intentionally extra, and I love it. So yeah, it's just grand. It's grander. And who besides Michael Jackson? Name some other people, please, who were in the cast of this film and what their casting meant specifically for the African American audience.

[32:42] Jerrell L. Henderson: Okay, well, of course, not I know you don't mean this, but not speaking for everyone, but just speaking for myself and my own experience. So the way is the film, Diana Ross is Dorothy, Michael Jackson's Scarecrow, the great comedian Nipsey Russell, like great comedian, plays the Tin Man, and his performance is spectacular because he's not a trained singer the way that Michael Jackson and Diana Ross and Lena Horne are trained singers. However, he has an exceptional ability to communicate emotion. His version of What Would I Do If I Could Feel is actually my favorite version of that song because of his vocals and because of what Quincy Jones did with the accompaniment. Listen to it. It's jazz blues, it's jazz blues and the piano, the way that the piano moves throughout the song, whether it's all melody or where it's playing around the melody, it's really extraordinary.

It's a very beautiful song. The great Ted Ross, who won a Tony Award for his performance as The Lion on Broadway, is one of the two original cast members from the Broadway production who make it into the film. The other one, as I mentioned before, is the late great Mabel King, who plays Evillene, The Wicked Witch of the West, who had the voice of God. As well as, I mean, it's Hollywood, right? So Richard Pryor is The Wiz, unlike Andre DeShields, the great Andre DeShields, who just won his first Tony Award, even though he's been nominated three or four times. The great Andre DeShields plays The Wiz on stage, and you know, I mean, he steals every moment he's on stage. You just can't stop looking at him.

He seems just so appealing. In the film, it's played by Richard Pryor, and the music is cut. So Richard Pryor's not gonna sing, he's just gonna act and do comedy. Fair enough. One of the biggest amazing things, and this also goes to what makes The Wiz special in terms of why it's significant, is because it was a really brilliant piece of casting to cast Didi Bridgewater, the great jazz singer who's still working, still killing it, wins a Tony Award for playing Glinda on Broadway. In the film, Glinda is played by Lena Horne. So here's why that's awesome historically, and why it's one of the reasons why I would argue that The Wiz is positioned as being really, really significant in American culture.

The fact that Lena Horne is a part is a significant part of this film. She is one of the last songs. And she kills it. She has If You Believe, which is Glinda's song. Lena Horne's career begins in the Cotton Club and musical variety shows and cabarets in the 1940s. I wouldn't say late 30s going into 40s, but the date my dates are sketchy. But I know she started at the Cotton Club, which means that you're at least in the late 30s, early 40s. So Lena, but Lena Horne became a cultural icon through the films Cabin in the Sky and Stormy Weather, which both came out in the early 1940s. She became an icon with the American military in terms of becoming a pinup girl, which she was always very proud of.

She was very happy that she was able to give soldiers something to what they said in that time fight for. We don't believe that now, but they believed that then. And she was happy to be that version because the black guys couldn't put Betty Grable, you know. There's a very iconic picture of Betty Grable looking from behind her shoulder, you know, with her booties showing that the white guys would put up in their lockers, and this is what we're fighting for, but black guys couldn't put her up because she was white. So Lena Horne became a pinup girl that they could put in their lockers and have something that they have something to remind them of home and what was special. She was already a known entity.

So to have Lena Horne in the film version of The Wiz connects the legacy of black musicals. It connects this black musical from 1978 to the early era of black musicals, where you had folks like Fats Waller, Bilbo, Jengles Robinson, the Nicholas brothers when they were young. You know, I mean? Because the Nicholas brothers were still working at that time, but they weren't doing splits down staircases anymore. Well, Harold was in the tap dance team of the 80s doing splits, but that's another conversation for another time. But still, you get my point. It anchors it. And if you understand her trajectory as a performer, you can begin to connect the dots between how black musicals operated, you know, in the 30s and 40s and how black musicals had evolved, and how African American musicals had not evolved. Because it's really quite ingenious and historically delicious that she's in that film, that she has that final moment, and that her vocals are so extraordinary.

[37:38] Jerrell L. Henderson: So, Jerrell, let's imagine that someone comes to you and says, I've got a ton of money. We want you to direct The Wiz. But we're gonna give you an option. You can either do the original version or you can adapt the screenplay for the stage. What would be your preference?

[37:57] Jerrell L. Henderson: I think it's like The Wiz Live a few years ago. It has to be a little bit of both. Nothing about The Wiz is either or; it's and great, it's and. So there's no either-or with The Wiz. That's what makes it special. Do you have a preference though, as either as an audience member or as an artist on which one you find more effective?

[38:23] Jerrell L. Henderson: If a young person comes to you and says, I have no interest, I have never seen The Wiz, I don't know what it is. Do you say go see the show, go see the movie?

[38:36] Jerrell L. Henderson: I'd say go see both, but no, I, so the film has a deeper attachment to me because I was familiar with that before I was familiar with the show. So speaking from a place of emotion and nostalgia, it has to be the film because the film is what made me want to do theater. You know, Diana Ross and Michael Jackson were in an all, okay. So The Wizard of Oz was the first non-child book I read when I was in third or fourth grade. Oh wow. And I read it because I was obsessed with the 1939 MGM film. And when I say obsessed, I mean I watched it and then I rewound it because this was in the days of VHS, and then I watched it again, and then I rewound it, and then I watched it again, and then I rewound it and I watched it again until my father banned it because he couldn't stand to hear that anymore.

My sister's girlfriend at the time, my sister's wife, who is his girlfriend at the time, they were in high school when I was a small child, still laughs when she sees me because she remembers that she came over one day and The Wizard of Oz was on, and I told her that I knew it word for word, and she thought that I was being hyperbolic, and then she watched me watch the film, and I knew it word for word, and she was blown away. She's like, oh my god. So, and so when The Wiz, when I saw The Wiz for the first time, again, it became a childhood obsession of mine because it was, you know, I was born in the early 1980s.

[40:08] Jerrell L. Henderson: So as I'm coming into awareness of the world, Michael Jackson just hit with "Thriller." So "Thriller" is in, you know, it's in the gumbo of my childhood. It's a large seasoning in the gumbo of my childhood. So the fact that Michael Jackson, who was like the biggest star in the world and Black and young and beautiful, um, was in this Black version of "The Wizard of Oz." I mean, it really didn't get any better than that. But what I will say, so I would have to say the film in terms of just like that's what got me addicted. Then I learned about the play. But in terms of the musical, the musical is special because the musical features opportunities on stage. Hmm, how do I say this? What makes "The Wiz" special isn't the cool things that they're able to do in the film.

It's the amazing performances performers are able to give on stage. "The Wiz" reminds me very much of Vaudeville. It reminds me of Vaudeville. You know what I mean? You're supposed to hold for laughs. You're supposed to get laughs. You know, after the lion sings his song, you know, the lion sings "Me No Lion," which is this great bombastic number, you know, and then when the audience is applauding, he begins to milk them for applause. That's in the script. He begins to, you know, spin his tail, you know, strut down the stage, do turns, do the moonwalk if he wants to, so that people applaud as long as possible for him. That's fun. You know, when you have, so you wanted to meet the Wiz, the I mean, the Wiz is two songs, so you wanted to meet the wizard, which is just this uh it's this larger than life, you know, feeling of this giant personality who walks on stage and commands everything.

In the film, the character becomes a bit broken down once they discover that he's a humbug, that he doesn't actually say what he means or means what he says. In the musical, he never loses his confidence. Um, and his final con, his final gift is "Y'all Got It," which is like if you're gonna go out, you're gonna go out in style. That is an incredible song. I remember listening to "Y'all Got It" in high school on my CD Walkman, you know, on the bus coming home and just listening to that song on repeat because the energy that Andre DeShields and the band is putting out. I mean, it's like it reminds it, it really does remind me of how I felt once I'll never forget I was listening to um I was watching the dishes at my dad's house as a teenager, and I was, you know, had a like a like a Motown greatest hits or something.

Um, and "Ain't Too Proud to Beg" came on. Oh no, you wanna leave me, and it stopped me, and I turned around and looked at the radio, and then I walked over to the radio and I put my hand in front of the speakers and just felt the energy coming out of that song, and then "Ain't No Mountain High Enough" with Tammy Terrell and Marvin Gaye came on, and it was the same thing. No, no, baby, no win, no more rain, or winter school. I mean, there was energy pumping out, and that's how I felt when I listened to "Y'all Got It," which is why later in life, when I learned that Motown was a big influence, a lot of it made sense. Like, that's the beauty of the show. You can every role in the stage version of "The Wiz" is a showstopper.

You can walk away. I saw a tour when I was in high school that came to the Tower Theater in West Philly. Um, when I was in high school, and the guy who played the I don't remember the actor's name, but he played uh uh the doorman at the Emerald City, stole the show. He had like two moments, both couldn't have been more than five minutes, and it's now 20 plus years later, and I still remember his performance because it was hilarious. He was so Regine from "Living Single," you know, uh uh uh uh you know, Hillary Banks from "The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air," he was so snooty and so rude, you know. But as soon as they had something he was interested in, he became a stick of fan and it switched on a dime, and it was hilarious.

So, you know, there's that's the difference between that's what the film can't do. You know, every number can't be a showstopper in the film, and "The Wiz" is just I mean, it's just so enjoyable. Now, the one thing that the film did do is foster a relationship between Quincy Jones and Michael Jackson. Um, which I was totally unaware of until I read um your paragraph on this. Can you tell us a little bit about how "The Wiz," the movie, changed entertainment as we know it?

[45:26] Jerrell L. Henderson: So here's the deal, and here's why like you don't have the film without the musical. So if you're gonna talk about the legacy of the script, the theatrical script, you have to talk about the fact that it gave birth to this film, where even though it wasn't a commercial success, it really did change world culture. Quincy Jones had met Michael Jackson before when he was a child, because Michael Jackson was a child performing with Motown. We all know this. He was a member of the Jackson 5. He was the lead singer of the Jackson 5. He wasn't just a singer. Um, but he doesn't get to know him until the film version of "The Wiz." Quincy, I just rewatched the interview earlier today. I think it's the one he was being interviewed for the documentary they did about him a few years ago.

Um, which, if you haven't seen it, I mean, I mean, take a couple hours of your life and just relive American pop culture through the career of Quincy Jones. Um, Billy Holiday to Sinatra to Michael Jackson to, you know, Prince. I mean, come on. Um, but anyway, so Michael Jackson goes to him. Michael's now a young man. He's of 19 or 20, and he is asking Quincy Jones if he can help him find a producer for his, you know, first solo album. Because at this point, he's still touring with his brothers. And Quincy's like, uh, I don't know, talk about producing your show. Let's you don't have a song in the show yet, because I guess they had already cut "I Was Born on the Day Before Yesterday." So they get "You Can't Win," which if I'm not mistaken is written by Ashford and Simpson.

Um, solid as a rock. So he records "You Can't Win," and there's some interaction that happens where Quincy Jones decides that he wants to work with Michael Jackson to help him find his voice. So of course, as we now know, that collaboration spawns "Off the Wall," "Thriller," and "Bad." "Thriller," if it is not the is absolutely, I believe it's the highest grossing album in like American music history. "Bad," if I'm not mistaken, is still the second. And if I'm not mistaken, "Off the Wall" still the third, that may have changed, but at a time, it was like "Thriller," "Bad," "Off the Wall," you know, in terms of music sold. So this relationship that literally launched Michael Jackson's career into the stratosphere would not have happened.

At least it wouldn't have happened the way that it did happen if it weren't for the film "The Wiz," if it weren't for the musical "The Wiz," which gave birth to the film. And so this is how American culture gives birth to American culture.

[48:00] Jerrell L. Henderson: And in our last few minutes together, um, I'm so curious. "The Wiz" won the Tony Award for Best Musical. It's only been revived once on Broadway, and I think that was in the early 80s with Stephanie Mills reprising her role as Dorothy. Is there a reason why we have not seen a major commercial revival of this musical, which is so beloved? Uh, and is a Tony Award winner for Best Musical.

[48:28] Jerrell L. Henderson: Yeah, that's a good thing. Um, quick quick side note though, because we can't, I we can't move forward without talking a little bit about Stephanie Mills.

[48:35] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, please.

[48:35] Jerrell L. Henderson: Her career post-"The Wiz." So she was a recording artist before "The Wiz" came, but "The Wiz" is what really launched her into the national spotlight. She becomes connected with Motown. Uh, after leaving Motown, she begins to record music, "I Never Knew Love Like This Before," which was featured in "Pose," uh "Put Your Body in It." I mean, these are hits. You know, we may not know these songs now, but like this was part of what was driving pop culture, especially in the African American community in the late 1970s, going into the 1980s. In the late, mid to late 1980s, Charlie Smalls and Ken Harper passed away. And she wants to do a tribute. She had done the revival, and she's I mean, she's synonymous with the show because she played Dorothy.

Uh, so she records a pop version of the song "Home," which I mean just goes on and breaks all kinds of records, and she becomes, you know, like Grammys and all these wonderful things. And so Stephanie Mills through her relationship with "The Wiz" and her immense talent. And I mean, I mean, I showed you the video of her live at the Apollo singing "Home." And it's it's like it's her, you have to watch it for her vocals, and then you have to watch it for the audience's response to her vocals, right? She's one of the few singers that I would liken to Mahalia Jackson. When I when if you want to really understand Mahalia Jackson's effect, don't just listen to her vocals, which are enough. Go back and watch video of the audience watching her.

That's how you know how bad she was. And it's similar with Stephanie Mills in that moment with the power of that voice, but being one of the few um Broadway performers who was able to successfully make a cross from musical theater to pop and to be really successful. It doesn't happen that often in American culture, and it happened with her. And one of the reasons why it happened was because of that song "Home," which she is now connected with. She will be connected with that song for the rest of her life. And she doesn't even have to sing the you know, the last part, you know. Um, there's a line that she was added to the song she did in the late 80s, you know. I can hear my friends, Charlie Smalls and Ken Harper.

I can hear my friends telling me, Stephanie, please sing my song, and she holds the note forever. Now she doesn't even have to sing that part because she goes, I can hear my friends telling me, and then the audience shouts it at her, Stephanie, please sing my song. Because "Home" is a song that we now associate with what it means to be Black in America, right? What it means to live through this experience as an African American, trying to find your way through and having the questions that you have and trying to make sense of the journey that you've been on so far. It is linked. "Home" is a gospel song, even though it's not a gospel song, because of its connection spiritually, emotionally, and that comes, I mean, it comes out of "The Wiz."

[51:51] Robert W. Schneider: Okay, you asked me another question quickly.

[51:55] Jerrell L. Henderson: Actually, yeah, but I but I've you know, I feel good on ending on that, to be honest with you.

[51:59] Robert W. Schneider: I think that I think that's so inspirational. I really do.

[52:01] Jerrell L. Henderson: I really do.

[52:03] Robert W. Schneider: My question was why has there never been a revival of it? But I feel like after people listen to this episode, they'll be throwing money at a revival of it.

[52:11] Jerrell L. Henderson: So nicely done, Jerrell. Point them in my direction, okay?

[52:15] Robert W. Schneider: After they throw the money, just be like, and here's a director.

[52:19] Jerrell L. Henderson: And my friends listening, Jerrell is a brilliant director. If you ever get the chance to see any of his work, I would encourage you to do so because it's a very special evening in the theater. And of course, he is a brilliant historian on top of that. I don't know what he doesn't do.

[52:33] Robert W. Schneider: Um, but I don't think we'll ever find out because he's always doing brilliant things.

[52:37] Jerrell L. Henderson: Uh, Jerrell, thank you so much for joining us today.

[52:41] Robert W. Schneider: Friends, please make sure to purchase a copy of "50 Key Stage Musicals" by visiting Routledge.com or by clicking in today's show description. If you want to learn more about "The Wiz," please also review the links in the below description. I'm Robert W. Schneider, and thank you for listening to "50 Key Stage Musicals," the podcast. Bye-bye.