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[0:00] ♪ Musical number: "Tomorrow" — performed by Andrea McArdle ♪

[0:12] Andrew Child: Hi, I'm Andrew Child, and welcome to Fifty Key Stage Musicals: The Podcast, a companion piece to the Routledge Press publication Fifty Key Stage Musicals, which is available for purchase by going to Routledge.com or clicking the link below in today's show description.

[0:32] Andrew Child: Today's episode focuses on chapter 27, Annie.

[0:37] Andrew Child: And with us today is the author of that chapter, Charles Kirsch.

[1:22] Charles Kirsch: Thank you for having me.

[1:22] Charles Kirsch: I am a 14-year-old theater podcaster in New York City. I host Backstage Babble on Apple Podcasts, where I talk to actors, choreographers, designers, and other theater professionals. I'm also one of Broadway World's Kid Critics and the author of a theater blog entitled Broadway Baby. My performing credits include acting in a reading of Doug Plout's sitcom pilot, The Maim and I, and several musicals at the 92nd Street Y. My greatest loves are performing, studying everything there is to know about theater, and reading.

[1:20] Andrew Child: Charles, thank you so much for being here with me today.

[1:22] Charles Kirsch: Thank you for having me.

[1:24] Andrew Child: So I loved your chapter on Annie. But for listeners who maybe haven't read the book yet, haven't gotten their hands on it yet, can you give us sort of a truncated version? Why the heck are we talking about Annie? What makes it a key musical in musical theater history?

[1:42] Charles Kirsch: Well, when I was assigned Annie to write for this book, it was a show I knew very well. I mean, of course, because it's Annie, but also because I had acted in it myself twice.

[1:53] Andrew Child: Oh, really?

[1:54] Charles Kirsch: At the 92nd Street Y, as mentioned above, and then at Merrimount Summer Camp. And so those, of course, were the junior versions, not the full show. But I already had a lot of context on what Annie was. And what makes Annie one of the 50 key stage musicals, and I do believe that it deserves to be that, is that it's the first children's musical. And what that means more specifically is, or at least how I would define it, is the first musical starring children and about children that was like sort of a major success. Part of that is, I mean, we can talk about this later, but part of what I discuss in my chapter is that it worked on both levels. It was about children, it worked for children, children loved it, but adults also loved it, and that's key to the success of any show because children are not enough of an audience; you have to bring in their parents as well.

[2:51] Andrew Child: Right. Okay, so I am curious just because you mentioned you've been in Annie two times. Could you say a little bit more about what roles you were playing? What was your connection with the show?

[3:03] Charles Kirsch: Oh yes. Well, both times I wanted to be Rooster, and neither time did I get that part. The first time I was FDR and Lieutenant Ward, the dog catcher in the dog scene. And the second time I was Daddy Warbucks.

[3:19] Andrew Child: Oh wow. I'm very impressed.

[3:22] Charles Kirsch: I do not know Annie Jr. I'm very impressed that they have FDR in it.

[3:27] Charles Kirsch: Yes, yes, they have a lot of the famous songs are still there. Some are not. We'd like to thank you. Herbert Hoover is no longer in, but most of it is. So I would say, because for me as well, actually, to get a little personal here, this was the first show I was ever in. When I was very little, I was Bert Healy in a small community center production. We're probably pre-dating there being a junior version, and I'm pretty positive it was like very unlicensed that they were doing it. But I would say that Annie for a lot of us is an in to childhood to loving musical theater. As you know, as a critic, as a lover of theater, do you have thoughts about what is it about Annie that kids enjoy so much?

[4:18] Charles Kirsch: Well, part of the success of Annie and part of what's great about Annie is that every little girl who sees it wants to be Annie. And I mean, even if you look on say Amazon, the amount of Annie Halloween costumes that there are is amazing. And I think that's part of what has made Annie so successful and spawned so many versions, is that there are so many girls who want to play Annie. I mean, I believe there was a documentary about the most recent revival where there were like tons of people who auditioned for the title role.

[4:50] Andrew Child: Wow. And then do you think there's something totally different, probably, that makes adults latch on to Annie? Do you have thoughts about what that might be?

[5:01] Charles Kirsch: Well, I mean, part of the fun I think is that Annie doesn't shy away from the mature; it's not too saccharine. There are villains who are a lot of fun in sort of a more adult-like showbiz glamour way. And I mean, probably a lot of parents have felt the message of the song "Little Girls" at some point. But yeah, I think that's more what appeals to the parents, although again, the mastery of that is that kids can also find that fun, even if they're finding it fun on a different level. It's not like it's not proportioned into like, here's the part for the kids, here's the part for the adults. It all works on both levels because the adults find the children endearing and they find the villains funny, and the children find the villains funny as well, and they identify with the children.

[5:49] Andrew Child: So what would you say paved the way for Annie to be the success that it was? What was going on in the world? What was going on in the theater world? Because, you know, nothing exists in a vacuum. What sort of allowed this raging success to happen?

[6:07] Charles Kirsch: Well, I mean, part of it, as I talk about a little in my chapter, was that Annie was a message of hope that I think was needed during that time. I mean, that's when you had Times Square being really dangerous. It's like the headlines of like "Ford to City: Drop Dead." That was all during the 70s, the late 70s when Annie was. And it's actually amazing that parents could even stand all of the bad things that were in Times Square, and yet they still took their children to see Annie. And the other, of course, major factor is the politics were, I mean, I guess that would have been after the Vietnam War, but it was still, it was sort of a depressing time for the country, as the authors have talked a lot about.

And they even cite the song "Tomorrow" as an example of their political philosophy, that they always try to sort of carry that message of hope with them. So I think that in terms of the world is sort of what made Annie so successful that we needed this story of this little underdog girl who just helps everyone. It ends happily for her. And in terms of children's shows before Annie, that's like a different story. I mean, you could say that there wasn't exactly something that paved the way because Annie was the first children's musical, I believe. But there were, I would cite Cinderella as one example. The only thing that separates it from Annie, I think, is that it's not directly about children.

It appeals to children, but Cinderella isn't a child. She's older. And it does manage to, I think, work on those same two levels of adults and children being appealing, but it doesn't provide that sense of like children can feasibly play Cinderella. And maybe that's what was missing there.

[8:02] Andrew Child: So when we talk about Cinderella, one of the things that I love about Rogers and Hammerstein's original telecast is that this was their business savvy at its finest. They were saying, how can we get every TV in America to tune in on this night? Up to and including something I'd love to get my hands on. They released a comic strip version of the show through Pepsi, and you got it with Pepsi products, which was one of their sponsors. In researching this chapter or researching in general, do you think this same sort of marketing was in the minds of the team working on Annie? Were they saying getting kids in the theater is really good for our bottom line? Was that something going on here, you think?

[8:55] Charles Kirsch: Well, that's a good question. I actually didn't find a lot about this sort of marketing angle in my research, but I do think that what was more of an issue probably was getting adults in the theater more than getting kids in the theater, because I think they thought for kids it would be sort of like an easy sell because it's like a kid being a hero, and what kid wouldn't want to see that on stage? I know I would.

[9:16] Andrew Child: Right.

[9:16] Charles Kirsch: And so part of what was so helpful in getting the adults in the theater, as Charles Strouse talks about in his book and Martin Charnin in his book, was having Mike Nichols come on board, which happened during the tryout in Connecticut. And I personally believe that having his name on the marquee gave it a kind of adult validation that, like, if Mike Nichols liked this enough that he would become the producer, take over the show, then there must be something to it. And I mean, in terms of marketing for the children, there was the sort of image of Annie, the look of Annie. I mean, I know there were like dolls at the time and things like that, and even just the cartoon from Harold Gray's comic strip.

Because I mean, I feel like it's even seeped into the popular culture beyond musical theater about what Annie looks like. I mean, Andrea McArdle described it as a fright wig that she had to wear in the original production, but still it's something that people try to emulate. And I think that was even if it wasn't necessarily the main marketing strategy, it was certainly a very effective one.

[10:32] Andrew Child: Do you think like they bring in Mike Nichols to put that name up on the marquee? Do you think a similar mentality was going into the original movie adaptation of the musical? Because when we look at that, they're bringing in huge well-respected actors, huge names. Is that sort of the same thing going on there? Making adults say, maybe this is actually a good movie that I want to sit through?

[11:01] Charles Kirsch: Well, I would guess that it was more that by that time of the movie being made, which I believe was 1982. Is that right?

[11:10] Andrew Child: Oh, that sounds about right.

[11:12] Charles Kirsch: Yeah, something like that. I would guess that Annie having played for maybe five years at that point was already such a juggernaut that it was probably roles that professional actors were jockeying for by the time of the movie, that it was more like they wanted to be in it and they wanted to get the validation from being in Annie rather than providing validation to Annie.

[11:35] Andrew Child: I see. So in your research, what did you sort of come across? What conclusions did you make after Annie? How has the theater scene changed? What is coming after Annie that you think is standing on Annie's petite shoulders?

[11:55] Charles Kirsch: Well, I mean, the most obvious answer is the sort of influx of children's musicals since 1977. Certainly Disney Theatricals, their company and the shows they've done have carried on in that legacy. One of them is certainly what I was mentioning earlier of the villains in the show being funny, threatening, but also fun. Like if you think about a song like "Poor Unfortunate Souls" that Ursula sings or "Why Me" that Jafar sings, it's something that you can enjoy. It's not purely dark. And I think there have been shows that have fallen short because they have not had that element of fun to the dark side of them. One example of that, I think, is Tuck Everlasting, which played for not a very long time a few seasons ago.

The villain in that they try to, I mean, in Annie, you could say they're trying to kill the child too, but in Tuck Everlasting, I mean, to have them like actually hold a gun to a child's hand on stage, I think is too far for children and parents to comfortably watch.

[13:11] Charles Kirsch: So I think it's about walking the line between those things.

[13:15] Andrew Child: You say that in the original movie version of Annie, does it walk that line when you know when Tim Curry is chasing her up that bridge at the end and there's sweat pouring down his face and he's screaming? Do we traipse into that Tuck Everlasting too scary area?

[13:33] Charles Kirsch: I mean, I was actually I watched the movie recently for research for the chapter, and I was a little surprised to remember how creepy it actually is at the end. I think that there must have been some audiences, some young audiences who sort of ignored that, as I guess I did when I watched it when I was little, because it didn't freak me out that much. And I think that's because it almost is so sort of like busy and chaotic that scene of like the helicopter coming down and the guy coming up that you don't have time to fully absorb that she's about to be killed by this crazy man, and also the fact that they have Miss Hannigan turn around at the end and try to save Annie, I think is something that prevents it from sort of going off the deep end.

[14:22] Charles Kirsch: That's a great point. Would you say that you had a specific recommendation for young listeners, maybe who aren't familiar with Annie? You know, they've got three movies, an NBC telecast, they've got multiple cast albums. What would you say would be a great introduction to Annie for someone who wanted to fall in love with this show?

[14:49] Andrew Child: Well, this is definitely a hard question because there are so many versions of it. The recent live version I didn't love except for a few, except for one performance, actually, the performance of Taraji P. Henson who played Miss Hannigan. I thought that I know that a lot of people thought she was doing too much, but I thought that that was right for the live format. Annie is anything but subtle in my opinion. I think that there's no reason to sort of tone it down. I think that her energy sort of matched what the whole telecast could have been and wasn't for the most part. I like the original movie a lot. I know that some people don't, but I find that just from beginning to end, it's a lot of fun.

It's a great representation of Annie. I mean, some people have said that the 1999 is probably more like what happened on the stage at the Alvin and later Annie theater. That's another unique thing about Annie is that they actually renamed the theater with the name of the show. That one I feel though is somehow it lacks a little bit of the heart and the warmth that the original one has. It has a lot of great performances. I mean, a lot of Broadway stars are in it, Audra McDonald and Victor Garber and all of that. But I do feel that it lacks some of the sort of spirit and energy that is captured by the original one. So I mean, I'm sure that if it were available, I would probably pick the original Broadway cast in its full version.

[16:23] Andrew Child: Okay. But as for now and what's available, I would say watch the original movie first.

[16:29] Charles Kirsch: Okay. Yeah, which the original Broadway cast, we do have some extant things, you know, Tony Awards performances.

[16:38] Andrew Child: Yes. And I don't know if you've seen it, but a very, very strange Annie Christmas special.

[16:44] Charles Kirsch: I actually haven't seen that.

[16:46] Andrew Child: It's bizarre. You know, it was promoting the show, and it's the original Broadway cast, and the kids want to have a Christmas party in the theater. The whole premise is that the producer basically tells them, we'd love to do this for you kids, but you have to convince all of the backstage unions to let you stay here late, which is absurd. And then Andrea McArdle sings "The Little Drummer Boy," and you know, it's probably not the same thing as a filmed version of the original Broadway cast, but you know, it's out there.

[17:24] Charles Kirsch: And so you, I know, were you able to catch the most recent Broadway revival of the show?

[17:31] Andrew Child: Yes, yes. And actually, to talk about that, since then I've been able to interview, on my podcast Backstage Babble, which we mentioned earlier. I talked recently to James Lapine, who directed that revival of Annie. And one of the things that he was saying, I actually wrote down this quote because I thought it was very interesting. He said, "I was brought to task for this, but I was fascinated by the politics behind Annie and the notion like fairy tales that it's all about people who are in poverty and who end up rich." But he also said, "I wanted to not lose the magic of that wonderful show, but also put it in a certain context." I'm not sure that was the best idea in the world when all is said and done because you're putting it in an enormous theater and a lot of people are coming who want to see Annie and they want to see just the fun part and not necessarily the interpretations.

[18:26] Charles Kirsch: And so one of the things we were talking about to prepare for this was do you think there will be like other interpretations of Annie? And I do think that to agree with what James Lapine was saying that I don't know that Annie needs to be interpreted. I think it's sort of interpretation-proof in a way.

[18:44] Andrew Child: Okay. I mean, yeah, to be completely honest, I don't remember that much about that revival of Annie because I was only five when I saw it. It was actually the first Broadway show I saw, and so I can't do a critical analysis of that, but I remember enjoying it.

[19:04] Charles Kirsch: Okay. That's good.

[19:05] Andrew Child: That's good. Do you think did Annie being the first Broadway show you saw, did that do anything for you in leading to your love of Broadway history, your love of Broadway theater?

[19:18] Charles Kirsch: Well, you know, it might have unconsciously, but I always sort of say that my first Broadway show was On the Town because that was the show that did lead to that interest for me originally and led to wanting to research more about theater. I think part of that was because I was older at the time, and when I was the age I was when I saw Annie, I wasn't really ready to be taken down that path yet, I don't think.

[19:44] Andrew Child: So I want to go back a little bit. We talked about two things that I want to sort of bring up. You mentioned how the legacy of Annie sort of paved the way for Disney theatricals, and of course, in a later interview, we're talking about Beauty and the Beast, which sort of paved the way for later Disney theatricals in a more, you know, direct sense, being the first Disney theatrical piece on Broadway. And the people who I'm talking with about Beauty and the Beast all worked on the recent only theater production, which really is a reimagining of the way that you cast that show and the way you staged that show. And so then we talked about your interview a little bit with James Lapine about the most recent Annie revival, and you mentioned you don't feel like there's a lot of need or space to do like an interpretation of Annie, which I think is a fair analysis.

[20:45] Charles Kirsch: Do you think when you talk about the message of hope that landed so well politically when Annie was first staged? Do you think that just doing Annie, do we still need that? Do we still want to see that? Will audiences still respond to that?

[21:04] Andrew Child: Well, I mean, I think we definitely, I mean, in some way, I think the world always needs a message of hope like Annie, but just to be more clear about what I was saying, it's not that I don't think that Annie should be cast in like a diverse or non-traditional way. Oh, no, no, no, yeah. It's just that, like, if someone wanted to like rewrite the book or like something like that, I don't think that that's like you were saying, I don't know that that's like necessary. I mean, Annie is so good that I don't think that it, I mean, I think it could only suffer from a rewrite.

[21:40] Charles Kirsch: I think something that immediately comes to mind when you talk about that. When the NBC telecast was happening right before it, I spoke with my mother on the phone, who was a child when Annie came out, and immediately needed to have the record, needed to listen to the soundtrack over and over and over again. And I know this about her. I know that it inspired a lifelong love of theater for her. Asking her, was she excited to watch the NBC telecast? And she said, no, I'm nervous. And then she said to me, you need to understand, Annie is my Wicked, which for anyone in my age range, like Wicked was a sacred text. You know, that CD was getting scratched up from being replayed over and over again.

So I definitely think there are still people alive who were so deeply affected by hearing and seeing Andrea McArdle that they don't want it to be touched. They don't need it to be touched. They're totally happy to just keep seeing Annie. And I think that's a testament to the show, too, that people who saw it already feel sort of like an ownership over it, and they want to protect it and hold on to it. And I think that the fact that it inspires that kind of sort of devotion and love in the audience is what's great about it.

[23:07] Charles Kirsch: Did you come across anything in your research? And totally fine if not, were there people who were, you know, fans of the original comic strip who felt that the show or later movie adaptations did a disservice to something that they loved that gave them hope that showed them a childhood hero when they were little?

[23:32] Andrew Child: Well, I didn't come across anything exactly like that, but I will say that the musical Annie is very different from the comic strip. The comic strip is actually darker in a way than the musical was. I mean, Daddy Warbucks, it's more sort of made a point of that he's like a war profiteer, and there are like people trying to attack him and spies and like Punjab and the Asp, who famously were added for the movie, not in the original musical. They are bigger characters who are trying to like defend him. And so that is something that I think the writers found sort of superfluous when they were writing the musical, that it wasn't such an integral part of Annie's story that it needed to be in there.

And I think that was a wise decision. And frankly, although I do like that original movie, I don't really see why they had to put back those two characters. I mean, Punjab, of course, features significantly in that scene that we already talked about that I'm terrified of to this day, that bridge chase scene.

[24:41] Charles Kirsch: I also think there's something interesting about that because when we sort of, you know, give a high sheen, a high gloss to this story. I think one of the lyrics that just lands so strangely on my ears listening from a contemporary standpoint, you won't be an orphan for long when they're all singing and they say if he should need the FBI, then he will get the FBI after all the favors he's done. J. Edgar Hoover owes him one. With all that we know about J. Edgar Hoover and the FBI now, it gets a little bit scary. It's like, what is Daddy Warbucks doing? Like, what's going on? What's happening? So I guess I am still just, it goes through my mind, you know, if in 30 years we want to put Annie back on Broadway, will we still sing those lyrics and just sort of keep them in this upbeat happy number?

[25:43] Andrew Child: Well, that's another good point. But I do think that, I mean, I feel like there's no danger, at least right now, of Annie like dying out or like there being no more productions. Because I mean, actually, in doing research for this interview, specifically, I was looking up like upcoming productions of Annie, and there's a new tour, a national tour that's launching this month. And of course, the recent live telecast, which a lot of people watched. And so I don't think we're at a time yet where we are ready to, or like that we don't need Annie anymore. And I don't know if we will ever reach that time. I don't know if it's something interesting to think about because like would reaching that time mean that as the country we were so like happy that we no longer needed that message of hope? And then would that be a good thing? But that's not to say that we would be better off if Annie hadn't been written or something like that.

[26:38] Charles Kirsch: Interesting. I was also interested to hear about the interview that you did just because I remember when the most recent revival of Annie was originally getting reviews. I remember reading a review that was exactly the opposite, you know. If he's feeling like, oh, I'm anxious that people just want to see big Annie, big happy numbers. This review was sort of saying maybe Annie needs a little bit more. Maybe just the message of "Tomorrow," the sun will come out tomorrow isn't enough for a contemporary audience. So I do think that's interesting. I'm also curious, were you able to see the movie version a little bit different? Tough to call it an adaptation with Jamie Foxx and Cameron Diaz.

[27:34] Andrew Child: Yeah. But do you have opinions on that movie version as well?

[27:37] Charles Kirsch: I have seen that. I saw it in the theater when it first came out. That's I think something that proves the point, at least in my opinion, that proves the point that Annie doesn't need an interpretation, because it's not to say that like it was entirely unsuccessful, but like there was no need to sort of update it in that modern way.

[27:58] Charles Kirsch: And I feel like it sort of took away some of the nostalgia that's great about Annie to have them be in this like tech palace instead of Daddy Warbucks' traditional mansion.

[28:10] Charles Kirsch: And I didn't love that version personally. Um, I thought Cameron Diaz's Little Girls was a lot of fun, but at the same time, all the sort of plot changes were again sort of like gilding the lily a little bit.

[28:26] Andrew Child: I yeah, I think that's a great way to put it.

[28:29] Andrew Child: I think you hit on a big part for me, that tech mansion was so absurd and bizarre.

[28:37] Charles Kirsch: But there were moments I loved. I loved um like the updated versions of some of the songs, especially with the orphans and of course with Cameron Diaz, huge fan of that number.

[28:48] Charles Kirsch: Um, the thing that I did like a little bit, and you can agree, disagree, be neutral about it. I liked when all the kids got on social media and sort of saved Annie. It was sort of something I also feel like is missing from Annie, you know, in so many productions.

[29:07] Charles Kirsch: It's like, congratulations, Annie. You're not an orphan anymore. And we're gonna give all your friends a nice dress and a doll, you know.

[29:16] Charles Kirsch: Um, and that updated version of Annie, it really sort of ends with a collective, like all kids are working together and are all heroes when they come together as one.

[29:28] Charles Kirsch: So I did like that ending, but I totally I rolled my eyes when they went to Daddy Warbucks' mansion. I was like, boy, what is this?

[29:35] Charles Kirsch: I mean, the question of um like the ending of Annie and what comes after is something that has been dealt with a lot in various kinds of sequels and things like that.

[29:45] Charles Kirsch: I mean, something that's interesting, I think, is that even the same writers proved unsuccessful twice in recreating the magic of Annie, first the Annie 2, and then Annie and then Annie Warbucks, Annie 2 and Annie Warbucks.

[30:00] Charles Kirsch: Actually, I'm not sure which came first. And then there's also a sort of interesting TV movie that I have to admit I haven't seen all of, but I watched some of it called Annie a Royal Adventure, where she goes to England, Daddy Warbucks is called to England, and that is correct to say it doesn't have singing in it.

[30:19] Andrew Child: It doesn't have, you are correct.

[30:21] Charles Kirsch: Yeah.

[30:23] Charles Kirsch: I'm laughing because I've sat through it. I don't I don't recommend it.

[30:27] Andrew Child: Yeah.

[30:28] Charles Kirsch: I actually I forget if the villain in it, I'm pretty sure is still Miss Hannigan. Um, but I forget if it's just a different like old lady, but it's it's so much more graphic.

[30:39] Charles Kirsch: It's not she's not rooting for Annie to not be adopted, she's like trying to kill Annie, it's absurd.

[30:46] Charles Kirsch: And there's also another plot with two villains who actually remind me a lot of Rooster and Lily, and I thought it was a little bit like lazy to just sort of put villains in who were basically the same.

[30:57] Charles Kirsch: They're these like English mobsters, I guess, who try to like kidnap this scientist that they're traveling with, but they have the same sort of like one is like bumbling and but they're funny, and but even though that worked for the original Annie, I mean, again, the sequel to come back to that word of like unnecessary, like I feel like uh even though a continuation of Annie, if done really well, would be a lot of fun.

[31:27] Charles Kirsch: I think that it's time to sort of like close the door on that idea because if even the original writers couldn't do it, then I don't think it can be done.

[31:36] Andrew Child: Okay, so let's talk a little bit about the villains in Annie.

[31:43] Charles Kirsch: We we've mentioned that. We've mentioned songs and sort of other characters who may build off of the success of these villains but they are so fabulous.

[31:55] Andrew Child: Sorry to tomorrow they have the best song in the show.

[31:58] Charles Kirsch: Yes.

[31:59] Charles Kirsch: Do you have thoughts?

[32:01] Charles Kirsch: I know we sort of talked about all the different versions. Do you have a favorite version of Easy Street?

[32:08] Andrew Child: Well oh that's a good question because I was thinking of it more in terms of like who would I take from each version.

[32:15] Andrew Child: I mean my favorite version probably would still have to be the Tony's performance of the original okay and but accepting the original cast and taking just from like the movies that are widely available I would probably pick um Taraji P. Henson, Tim Curry and Kristen Chenoweth.

[32:37] Andrew Child: That would be kind of like master cast of Annie.

[32:41] Charles Kirsch: Wow.

[32:42] Charles Kirsch: I mean I think Kristen Chenoweth is just sort of like the perfect choice for that part of Lily and she finds some of the comic bits like falling off the table during Easy Street that make I mean it I think Lily is definitely if not the highlight one of the highlights of that movie because of Kristen Chenoweth and it makes the scene that much more fun when she like when the orphans convince her to tell them the whole plot and you want to see more of her which I think I mean it's easy for Lily to sort of be like another side fun, but like maybe a little bit of a throwaway character, but she makes it a highlight.

[33:23] Andrew Child: Oh, absolutely.

[33:24] Andrew Child: And I mean, they they give it to her with the rewrites of the script.

[33:28] Andrew Child: They really give her she's she is a highlight, yeah.

[33:31] Charles Kirsch: Obviously.

[33:32] Charles Kirsch: And then I think Tim Curry is just the right balance between like sleazy and fun that that you need for Rooster.

[33:40] Charles Kirsch: He's yeah, I mean, he gets scary.

[33:43] Charles Kirsch: Yeah, but he also brings such a sexiness to it.

[33:47] Charles Kirsch: His the z you know what I'm talking about.

[33:51] Andrew Child: Um so weird, so absurd, so bizarre.

[33:54] Charles Kirsch: And then you did already sort of talk about how much you loved Miss Hannigan in the NBC telecast.

[34:02] Andrew Child: Did you feel like she really nailed it with Easy Street on top of just being a highlight of that production overall?

[34:10] Charles Kirsch: Well, I think this will be uh definitely a controversial opinion.

[34:14] Charles Kirsch: But I actually I was the thing I was most looking forward to about that Annie were Titus Burgess and Megan Hilty, and as Rooster and Lily, and I have to say I was kind of disappointed in both of them.

[34:27] Charles Kirsch: I thought that Titus Burgess was not having enough sort of fun with it, and that Megan Hilty was just like not being funny enough in the same way.

[34:36] Charles Kirsch: And so I think that because of that, Easy Street was not the highlight for me, but I thought that Taraji P. Henson's performance in like Little Girls and the other numbers were what solidified her as a great Miss Hannigan.

[34:52] Charles Kirsch: There was an early casting notice. I didn't follow up on this.

[34:54] Charles Kirsch: I don't know how much truth there was to it that had announced Jane Krakowski doing Lily St. Regis, and I was devastated when it wasn't.

[35:04] Andrew Child: I think too, yeah.

[35:05] Andrew Child: I think what happened with that was that she got COVID and then they had to replace her, but she would have been great too.

[35:12] Charles Kirsch: Although there's another question about Annie, which is like how old should different actors be who are playing the different roles in Annie.

[35:21] Charles Kirsch: I mean, I assume most of the Annies we've seen in like the major productions have been pretty young, but I'm sure there must have been things, be it in like regional theater on tours with slightly older Annies.

[35:33] Charles Kirsch: And I always sort of wonder how that would work and like would it change things.

[35:37] Charles Kirsch: I mean, obviously it wouldn't be exactly true to what the script is supposed to be, but I would be interested to see a production with say a like 16-year-old playing Annie or something like that, and just to see how that would work.

[35:50] Andrew Child: Would that be something that you think just technically as a performer that the performer would be more refined or more capable? Or what's your thoughts there?

[36:02] Charles Kirsch: Well, that could be, I mean, something I know from like doing Annie is that the part of Annie is actually like very hard and very demanding, of course, because she's the star of the show, but like the last note in Tomorrow is very hard to reach.

[36:15] Charles Kirsch: And so you need an actress and singer with a lot of skill.

[36:19] Charles Kirsch: And that's why I mean this is taking a little bit of a detour from your question, but something I believe that I ended up taking out of the chapter was this idea of there being like tear stains on the red dress over time of a lot of girls, not only you didn't get to play Annie, but there were two major sort of upsets with the actresses who played Annie, maybe most famously in the original, when they were trying out that they replaced the girl playing Annie with Andrea McArdle, who had been playing Pepper.

[36:49] Charles Kirsch: And that girl, you know, something interesting about that was that there was an event recently, like an Annie reunion that she was supposed to be a part of, and then she ended up dropping out of it at the last minute.

[37:01] Charles Kirsch: But I wish that that hadn't happened because I would always have found it interesting to hear her side of the story.

[37:06] Charles Kirsch: And I mean, it must have been incredibly disappointing.

[37:09] Charles Kirsch: And then the more sort of publicized thing about replacing Annies was the revival in the 90s, which was not as successful, I don't believe, in the end, um, with Nell Carter as Miss Hannigan and Conrad John Shaka's Daddy Warbucks.

[37:25] Charles Kirsch: And they held a contest to find someone to play Annie.

[37:30] Charles Kirsch: I believe it was Macy's who sponsored this contest.

[37:33] Charles Kirsch: And they a girl won it. Her name was Joanna Pacitti, and she was gonna get to like live her dream of playing Annie on Broadway.

[37:40] Charles Kirsch: And then the creative team decided to fire her, and they decided to not pick her, even though she had like rightfully won this contest and to pick a different person instead.

[37:51] Charles Kirsch: And then there was a giant lawsuit, and she sued them for like 50 million dollars.

[37:56] Charles Kirsch: And I believe she ended up winning at least a few million dollars out of court, and that's just a little piece of interesting trivia about Annie, and obviously a very sad thing.

[38:08] Charles Kirsch: But I think that ties back into the way that Annie is like a very hard part to play, and it's hard to cast.

[38:14] Charles Kirsch: And you need someone with a prodigious amount of talent, but if you were to have an older kid in the cast, it might even it might be easier for them to take on some of those challenges, like that note, it might be more natural.

[38:29] Andrew Child: And I mean, that song is it's brutal.

[38:33] Charles Kirsch: I remember watching, you know, the promotion for the telecast when they were performing at uh Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade, and that you know, she comes out in the dress and she's out there in the cold.

[38:46] Charles Kirsch: And I mean, it's we we say that note at the end, it's really the last three notes, which are all the same, you know, to hit day, uh it's brutal and seeing that you know, tiny little frame in that iconic little dress come out, and I know she was you know, lip syncing at the Thanksgiving parade, but it's still it's like wow, this whole show is riding on a little kid is crazy.

[39:20] Charles Kirsch: I think of um when the West End when they put up Bugsy Malone, uh this is going back like seven or eight years now.

[39:30] Charles Kirsch: Um, but they were it's an all-child cast that show, and they sort of augmented the ensemble with adult women who could who could pass, who were very petite, who are very small.

[39:43] Charles Kirsch: So if you watch, you know, in the background of their Olivier performance, you know, it's that she's gotta be 40, just you know, just playing a little boy.

[39:54] Andrew Child: Do you think there's space for that in Annie to kind of throw in a Pepper who's maybe 26?

[40:01] Charles Kirsch: Well, no, I don't think I feel like that would kind of ruin the fun of having it all be real children.

[40:09] Charles Kirsch: And that's part of the sort of endearingness of it too.

[40:12] Charles Kirsch: I think is that when you're seeing them all talk about like their that they're sadness, orphanage and it wouldn't be as sympathetic if it was like adults, and also it wouldn't make sense if it was adults to have them be in the same like position.

[40:27] Charles Kirsch: And so then I would love to talk a little bit about like some of the things that came from Annie a little bit more, which is some of it is in the chapter, but some of it because I mean there was a word limit on the chapter.

[40:39] Charles Kirsch: So some of the ideas I had to take out.

[40:41] Charles Kirsch: But um what this is where I mean it gets sometimes Annie can get a little bit, I don't want to say creepy, but a little bit controversial is the idea that you could say that it's really sort of a love story between Daddy Warbucks and Annie.

[40:57] Charles Kirsch: I mean, obviously not that kind of love story, but in the way that she sort of like changes his life and they like grow closer.

[41:04] Charles Kirsch: And I mean, some people have even criticized the song Something Was Missing for being like too much sort of like that, like too much like a love song that it's on that he's singing it to a child.

[41:15] Charles Kirsch: But along those lines of show that I think it influenced was Beauty and the Beast, which, and maybe the people who you talk to later will even talk about this.

[41:23] Charles Kirsch: That Beauty and the Beast has some of the same plot, I think, of like an older, like in the in that case, it's like a deformed, but in this case it's just sort of like a snobby older man who has this like younger girl or woman come into his life and like sort of make him like loosen up and like find joy in the world again.

[41:45] Charles Kirsch: And so that I think is a clear sort of influence from Annie.

[41:49] Charles Kirsch: And I mean, we were talking before about how Annie 2 didn't work.

[41:53] Charles Kirsch: I think the closest we have to an Annie 2 is probably Matilda, which is a lot like Annie in many ways, except for I mean, the main difference being the setting that it's in England and it's on an orphanage, it's in a school, but it's even down to having its own Grace and Miss Hannigan and Miss Honey and Miss Trunchbull in Matilda.

[42:14] Charles Kirsch: And so I think that I never actually saw the writer say that they had that in mind, but it's like impossible to believe that they wouldn't have had that in mind. The one thing about Matilda that's different I think is that it veers more into the sort of like maybe even Disney world of like magic and like supernatural that Matilda has these powers that she can control the world with. And I think that might even be what makes it not Annie not as successful as Annie because one of the great things about Annie is that it is very realistic, I believe in its portrayal. I mean not necessarily realistic in that like a billionaire would come to an orphanage but like realistic in that the character the way she like talks and like what she does is something that a real kid could do.

And that's part of what creates this identification. Although I mean I think Matilda to a lesser extent has achieved the same thing like I know a lot of my friends who are my age when Matilda was on Broadway auditioned for it and that in that way I think it's able to replicate the same magic. Which so I and I can't quote it directly but there was an interview when Matilda was first on Broadway in the New Yorker with Tim Minchin who wrote the music and the lyrics talking about staging this for the RSC and how day one they were like they would be upset well not upset. I think they realized that they sort of stumbled into this, but day one was how do we put this on stage and not get compared to Annie?

And so the discussions were originally in very early stages to work with puppeteers to create the children. And then when that didn't have enough heart, enough gumption to work with adults playing the children, and eventually they sort of begrudgingly settled with finding a powerhouse dynamite little belting girl who could just bring the house down with these heart-wrenching numbers. And then exactly we land in this place where you know we can't talk about Annie anymore without mentioning Matilda. We can't talk about Matilda without mentioning Annie, even though they are, as you pointed out, very different, very stylistically content-wise, very different. But no, you're absolutely correct. There's a lot of the same elements at play there.

[44:47] Charles Kirsch: And then there's um one point I was gonna make about Matilda and Annie. Oh, oh, oh, oh, this is what I'm saying. That the idea of casting adults in Matilda, that there were actually when Martin Charnin first found the book of Little Orphan Annie comic strips and pitched it to Charles Strouse and Thomas Meehan, there were two ideas that they had that they scrapped. And the first idea, which I find interesting, is actually that they were originally thinking about doing it for television rather than Broadway show. And then the second idea was to have Bernadette Peters play Annie and to have an adult Annie, but that was soon vetoed, and of course she went on to play Lily. But I think that that was like the best choice they could have made because it might have fallen into camp if it was Bernadette Peters playing Annie.

Might have. Yeah. Yeah. It wouldn't have been taken seriously. It wouldn't have been as like sweet. And so that would have made it. I mean, even if it was a success, it wouldn't have been the same kind of success. Oh, we'd just be seeing it lip synced too at drag shows and you know ridiculed for centuries to come.

[46:02] Andrew Child: Do you think that Matilda is as successful artistically as Annie was in its time?

[46:16] Charles Kirsch: Artistically meaning, like, is it as good or like do as many people like it?

[46:22] Andrew Child: Either both.

[46:23] Charles Kirsch: Well, I mean, is it as good? I would say yes, for the most part. Um it's not like Annie in that like every number is not like a classic, I feel. But and that also plays into the other point, which is I don't think as many people know it as Annie, and I don't think as many people ever will know it as Annie, because Annie was kind of a unique thing in the way that it like took over the culture for not just a brief time, but for a long time. And I think that it would be hard for any other children's musical to achieve that same kind of status, even if it was a hit as Matilda was, and it ran for a long time. It's not gonna be the cultural juggernaut that Annie was.

[47:06] Andrew Child: Do you think we will ever see another Annie?

[47:12] Charles Kirsch: I mean, I know we had Hamilton, but do you think we'll ever see something like Annie with this positive message with this upbeat energy geared toward kids, just sort of sweep pop culture like Annie did?

[47:28] Charles Kirsch: Well, I mean, I don't really know to be honest. It there's always like, I mean, people in 1975 probably would have said like there will never be a children's musical about based on a comic strip that would take over the nation that way. So I mean, there always could be. I mean, Matilda, I think is the closest we've gotten to something like that since Annie. But yeah, and then I mean, even before Annie, there was nothing like that in terms of children's musicals. Even Cinderella, I mean, well, I guess that's debatable because it was, as you said, watched by so many televisions in America more than anything else. But I don't think that it was the same kind of like cultural thing for as long, if that makes sense. Like, I don't think it had the same sort of staying power.

[48:19] Andrew Child: No, absolutely. I think you're absolutely, absolutely correct. Was there anything else that you felt in your research was a direct byproduct of Annie?

[48:33] Charles Kirsch: You know, we talked about Beauty and the Beast, we talked about Matilda, we talked about a couple different things. I just want to make sure, did you have anything else you came across that you said, oh, we wouldn't have this if we had not had this very key musical, Annie?

[48:45] Charles Kirsch: Um, well, I think I talked about most of the points that I made about things after Annie, but I would want to talk a little more if it's okay about like things before Annie that were somewhat like children's musicals. Absolutely before it because I mean, something that actually Robert W. Schneider, who's a great author and was the editor of this book, um, said to me when we were talking about this chapter, is that like there were a lot of shows that were musicals with children, but not children's musicals. Like either they weren't musicals for children, that was often the case. Like, say like King and I has children in it, but like I wouldn't say that that's a show for children.

[49:29] Andrew Child: No, it's much more for adults.

[49:31] Charles Kirsch: Um, The Sound of Music is sort of a debatable case because it is a show that a lot of children love. And I think you could arguably say that it has entered the culture in about the same way that Annie has, but it's not, it's not, and this is I think the difference in a lot of the shows like this, and I think Mary Poppins is an example of this too. It there are children in it, and it is in some ways intended for children, but it's not children aren't the like focal point of the story. Like Mary Poppins, the children are sort of accessories in both they're like plot points more than like the leads or the driving forces of the shows.

[50:16] Andrew Child: Right. Jane Banks doesn't come out with the 11 o'clock.

[50:20] Charles Kirsch: Yes, yeah. You're absolutely correct. And then something that has been compared to Annie because of what it's about, I think is Oliver, because it's also about like a young orphan child who's the star of a musical. Although Oliver, I think may even be an example of being sort of like too dark to like get behind. Like, I mean, I remember being scared when I saw the movie of the scene where Bill like stabs Nancy, and I think that that's too much again, like too much to expect children to like watch all the time, and again, even parents to watch all the time but another thing about that is that it's not like aspirational. Like I don't think that anyone wants to like come to the same fate as Oliver.

Annie is sort of about like her entering this like dream world and like great life and rich parents who love her and Oliver is not that story. And I think that's part of what made it less successful. And another thing not to like generalize, but I don't think that like young boys generally are going to be as into like dressing up as Oliver as little girls would be into dressing up as Annie. And I mean let's be real the young boys who and I speak from personal experience the young boys who would be willing to dress up like Oliver are equally as interested in dressing up like Annie, you know like that's yeah yeah. We don't have to go more into that but you know Annie kind of she's got a gender neutral appeal if you're listening to musical theater anyway, you know um I'm curious I just want to throw another one out there and just sort of hear your thoughts on it.

Um did The Music Man sort of come into mind because of sort of Winthrop's role in that. And of course that's in everyone's minds now because of the revival happening um that's another show where I feel that a child is at least mostly sort of incidental to the story. Although I do think that The Music Man is a show that children love, which actually surprised me a little bit to find out because a lot of it is very sort of sophisticated musically like Rock Island and all of that. But I I didn't think that it would have as much sort of mass appeal even as it does now with this revival. But I think that it does have the same thing going forward as Annie of working for children and adults but again it's not a child story which is what makes it not the first children's musical.

[52:42] Andrew Child: Right absolutely so just sort of in conclusion here I would love to know a little bit more about just your final opinions your final thoughts on Annie in general uh we've talked about it being a key musical would you rank it as uh obviously it's a work that's significant to you would you put this up there as one of the greats or as one of your favorites?

[52:42] Charles Kirsch: Well I don't want to diminish the other 50 authors who wrote about key musicals but um I definitely think it is definitely it definitely belongs in this list of 50 I think even if you narrowed it down to like a list of 20 it would still belong because of what it did for the culture. And that's something that's important because people talk sometimes about how like it can be hard for theater to sort of transcend the limited audiences who can see a show on Broadway. And I think that Annie definitely did that and Annie was able to have an appeal to children everywhere and was able to I keep using the phrase of like entering the culture but I think it did in a way that a lot of other musicals were not able to and I think that that's something that makes it rank in the top 20 in the top 10 of favorite musicals.

And I think, I mean, I believe that there will always be a place for Annie in the American theater, whether it's especially prescient at the time or whether it's something we can just sort of sit back and enjoy. And I do think that this is a time when we do need the message of Annie because these are obviously very like political times, and I think that Annie has that as a part of it, but also times when we need a lot of joy, and that's the that's at the core of Annie is joy. And so I mean, I think we always need to believe that the sun will come out tomorrow, and that's why Annie is so great.

[55:01] Andrew Child: Well, thank you so much for chatting with me today. I feel like we got a dearth of information beyond what's in the chapter on Annie. So thank you so much for illuminating all of that.

[55:08] Charles Kirsch: Oh, yes, I'm glad. And it was an honor to write for this book.

[55:11] Andrew Child: And thank you, listeners, for joining us today. Please make sure to purchase a copy of 50 Key Stage Musicals by visiting Routledge.com or by clicking in today's show description. If you want to learn more about Annie, please also review the links in the below description. I'm Andrew Child, and thank you for listening to 50 Key Stage Musicals, the podcast.

[55:43] Charles Kirsch: Clears away the cobwebs and the sorrow.