This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] David MacGregor: Hi there, I'm David MacGregor. You are going to be listening to an audio version of my play IMMERSION THERAPY, produced by Gather by the Ghost Light. I hope you enjoy it and happy listening!

[0:28] Jonathan Cook: All right, welcome back to Gather by the Ghost Light: Original Stories for Radio Theater. I'm Jonathan Cook, your host, producer, and sometimes voice actor on this thing. And this is the first episode of 2024, and there's been a lot of planning going on behind the curtains here. We got a lot of cool things coming up, with one of them being the inaugural Off-Broad Street Play Festival that's taking place in April at La Chad Noir Theater in Augusta, Georgia. In total, we received 767 plays from around the world, and we are currently in the process of selecting eight of those plays to be performed at the festival. So keep a lookout on our website and social media for the announcement of the selected plays in the lineup.

And everyone out there that submitted, you guys are awesome. Thank you so much. You know, keep creating and doing what you do because you never know what other submission opportunities may be coming up in the future. And now let me present to you our first release of 2024. Today's story was written by Michigan-based playwright David MacGregor. David is a resident artist at the Purple Rose Theater, and he's written many award-winning plays that have been seen by audiences around the world. And his full-length play Vino Veritas was even turned into a feature film starring Carrie Preston. And today you are going to hear his short play called IMMERSION THERAPY. You're about to meet a woman named Melissa.

It turns out that today is her birthday, and her husband is about to give her the greatest birthday present ever. Now, gather round the ghost light. Sit back and enjoy. This is IMMERSION THERAPY, written by David MacGregor. And be sure to stick around after the story to hear an interview with the writer and the voice actors.

[2:22] Melissa: Maybe it'll be a trip to Scotland. Or Greece. Wow, look at those shores. They're like a dream. Ooh! Finally he's home. Can't wait to see what he has in store this year.

[2:35] Doug: Hi, hun.

[2:37] Melissa: There she is. Happy birthday, sweetheart. How's your day been so far?

[2:41] Melissa: It's been okay. Nothing special yet.

[2:45] Doug: Well.

[2:46] Melissa: Well, what?

[2:48] Doug: You'd better be kidding.

[2:49] Melissa: About what?

[2:50] Doug: Oh my god, don't do this to me.

[2:53] Melissa: I'm not sure I follow you.

[2:54] Doug: My present? An amazing one of a kind incredible birthday present?

[2:58] Melissa: Oh, yeah, that's right. Yeah, I usually try to get you a little something for your birthday each year, don't I?

[3:03] Melissa: A little something? A signed first edition of Ulysses by James Joyce. Skydiving over the Mojave Desert at sunset. Dinner at the French Laundry, honey, your presents. My girlfriends want to slit my throat when they hear what you get me for my birthday.

[3:19] Doug: Well, birthdays are special. So they should be special. So what is it this year? Can I guess?

[3:24] Melissa: Come on now, honey. You know that every year it gets harder and harder to do something amazing, right?

[3:30] Doug: Not for you.

[3:31] Melissa: Well, I do my best, but uh, I just want you to know that if I'm gonna keep up the standards, I need to start thinking more and more outside the box.

[3:39] Melissa: Oh my god, it's going to be just tell me, is it a present or an experience?

[3:44] Doug: Um kind of both. I mean, maybe it's leaning a little more towards the experience side.

[3:49] Melissa: Really? Do I need to pack? Where are we going?

[3:52] Doug: Well, for this experience, you just need to stand right there.

[3:56] Melissa: Right here?

[3:58] Doug: Right there. And close your eyes.

[4:01] Melissa: Close them.

[4:02] Doug: Okay, they're closed. Bring it on.

[4:06] Melissa: Oh my god. Oh my god. How long do I have to wait?

[4:08] Doug: Not long. Just keep your eyes closed.

[4:12] Doug: Come on in. Come come.

[4:14] Doug: All right, over here.

[4:15] Melissa: Oh, over there?

[4:16] Doug: Yeah, go stand right in front of her.

[4:18] Melissa: Still waiting.

[4:20] Doug: Okay. Are you ready?

[4:22] Melissa: Yes.

[4:22] Doug: Alright. Open your eyes.

[4:25] Melissa: Oh my god. Happy birthday!

[4:30] Droppo the Clown: Happy happy birthday. Happy happy birthday. Happy happy birthday. Happy happy birthday. Happy birthday. Happy happy birthday. Happy happy birthday. Happy happy birthday. Happy happy birthday. Happy birthday.

[4:57] Doug: I don't think your wife likes clowns.

[4:59] Droppo the Clown: No.

[5:00] Doug: Actually, she's terrified of clowns. Has been as long as I've known her. You know, it's not that uncommon, apparently. It's called chlophobia, which means uh fear of clowns.

[5:09] Droppo the Clown: Right.

[5:10] Doug: So I'm not sure this was such a good idea for a birthday present.

[5:15] Droppo the Clown: No, no, actually, it's a great idea.

[5:17] Doug: How do you figure?

[5:19] Droppo the Clown: Well, I mean, how many pieces of jewelry can you get someone? How many fancy restaurants can you go to? But this to take someone's greatest fear and have them finally face it and overcome it. You know, don't you think that's the best present you could ever give to anyone?

[5:34] Doug: You know, she can't go to the circus, can't go to carnivals, she can't go to half the birthday parties for our nephews and nieces because there's gonna be a clown there. You know, it's an irrational fear that genuinely affects the quality of her life. So, you know, what better present than curing her of that fear?

[5:49] Droppo the Clown: Right. Now I did some research on phobias, and apparently what the experts do to get people to overcome their fears, they try to get them more comfortable with the very thing that terrifies them. They call it immersion therapy, which is where you come in.

[6:05] Doug: Yeah, I get that. So what I'm gonna do is, you know, I'm gonna leave you two alone just for a little bit, and I'm gonna run up to the store, maybe get some birthday candles. You know, it'll give Melissa time to uh uh assimilate or whatever the the word acclimate.

[6:19] Droppo the Clown: Bingo, yeah, that the letter acclimate to you being here, and you know, once she gets over the shock, just play it by ear. Okay?

[6:27] Doug: Great. I'll be back in a few.

[6:30] Droppo the Clown: Oh gosh. I'm really sorry about this. Your husband didn't tell me you were scared of clowns.

[6:42] Droppo the Clown: Listen. Maybe I'll I'll just sit down. Lots of travel magazines here. Oh, Greek islands. You like to travel?

[6:59] Melissa: I I've never been to Greece or Europe even. I've been to Montreal, though it's kinda like Europe, so I've been told it's like Europe.

[7:08] Droppo the Clown: Uh oh, do you like magic tricks?

[7:12] Droppo the Clown: Um, I'm just a regular person in a costume with some makeup on. I don't understand why people, and believe me, it's a lot of people these days. Why they have such a problem with clowns? You know, just last week I got hired for his birthday party, a kid's birthday party, and he told me explicitly that I couldn't come dressed as a clown. So I go, you know, a gigs a gig, and I I'm doing my thing, making balloon animals and whatnot, and I asked this one little girl, you know, why why they wouldn't let me come as a clown? That I'm a nice clown, a funny clown. And this girl says to me, Because if you were a clown, I wouldn't be here right now. How do you know that hurts? It's not like I just put on a self and call myself a clown.

I uh went to clown college. I did. I studied the films of Charlie Chaplin and the Three Stooges. I I can juggle walk on stills. I I can ride a unicycle. I broke my left elbow twice learning how to walk in these clown shoes. Now all of a sudden I I I freak people out. Where did I come from? Somehow we now live in a society where everyone's afraid of something all the time. Everyone has some kind of phobia or or or or allergy or or a condition. If it's not on our phones or TV screen, we're terrified. So why do we do everything we can to avoid the real world and real people? Anyway, I'm sorry about this. I I really am. But why why are people so afraid of clowns? I I just don't get it.

[9:05] Melissa: It was it was a parade.

[9:10] Droppo the Clown: Huh?

[9:10] Melissa: A Thanksgiving Day parade. That's when it started. Do you want to tell me about it?

[9:18] Droppo the Clown: I've never told anyone ever. Not even my husband.

[9:22] Melissa: Well, it's up to you. Uh feel free to tell me if you want. I'm not here to judge or anything. I'm just a clown.

[9:31] Melissa: I was probably eight or nine years old, and I went down to the parade with my whole family. My mom and dad, my two little brothers, and we got there early, so we had a perfect spot right on the curb. And the parade starts, and it's just wonderful. It's a gorgeous autumn day. They've got floats and balloons and marching bands, and and then finally at the very end, here comes Santa Claus. He's on this amazing red and green tinsel-covered float, and he's getting closer and closer, and and one of his elves comes by and gives me a candy cane, and I'm holding the candy cane as Santa passes right in front of us. And I can't believe it, but Santa turns and looks at me. Not at my mom and dad, not at my brothers.

He's looking right at me. And he puts his finger to the side of his nose and winks. And me. And I know that he knows what a good girl I've been, and that this is going to be the best Christmas ever. And it's like I'm floating on this cloud of pure joy, and I turn to my brother to tell him what just happened. And when I do, there's this clown. This huge clown face about six inches from mine, and the clown says, Merry Christmas, little lady. And I wet myself right there in the street. And I couldn't stop. My brothers are laughing, other people are pointing, and my parents are looking at me like they don't even know who I am. It was the single most horrible, humiliating moment of my entire life.

[11:15] Droppo the Clown: Uh I don't know what to say.

[11:18] Melissa: And that's not the worst part. The worst part. And I didn't realize this until years later. The worst part is that when I turned and saw that clown, I had the most powerful orgasm of my entire life.

[11:37] Droppo the Clown: Okay. Whoa. I didn't see that one coming.

[11:41] Melissa: That's what it was. That's why I couldn't control myself. I just went numb head to foot. And ever since then I've had this problem with clowns, and to be honest, I've had some other issues as well because of that moment. Not that my husband hasn't been great. He has. He's very, very understanding, and our relationship is just about perfect in every other way, but it's like I have this mental block when it comes to I get it.

[12:07] Droppo the Clown: You don't have to say another word.

[12:09] Melissa: Sorry to unload on you like this.

[12:11] Droppo the Clown: No, that's what I'm here for.

[12:12] Melissa: Well, at least you're talking to me.

[12:14] Droppo the Clown: That's something.

[12:15] Melissa: I guess so.

[12:16] Droppo the Clown: And you're looking at me without screaming.

[12:18] Melissa: I'll take that as a positive.

[12:19] Droppo the Clown: You're actually doing pretty good.

[12:22] Melissa: Thank you.

[12:23] Droppo the Clown: How about we try something? Maybe your husband's right. Maybe just getting a little more comfortable, more acclimated would be a good idea. So how about if I get up and I'll just stand in the center of the room? I won't make any sudden movements. And if you want to get any closer to me, then you can. And if not, that's perfectly fine.

[12:43] Melissa: Okay.

[12:46] Droppo the Clown: Okay, okay. How are we doing?

[12:50] Melissa: My heart's kind of pounding.

[12:52] Droppo the Clown: Do you want me to sit down again?

[12:54] Melissa: No. No, I need to be able to deal with this. Like you said, you're just a regular person in a costume.

[13:01] Melissa: Where do you buy clown shoes anyway?

[13:04] Droppo the Clown: There's a company called Spears. Spears specialty shoes. They've been around 40 years or so. Good outfit, quality products, but not cheap, believe me. This is their tri-colored full-length lollipop model. They sent me back $425 a pair.

[13:20] Melissa: And are there specialty clothing stores for clowns too?

[13:22] Droppo the Clown: Oh, you can find plenty of stuff online, but it's all pretty cheap. I prefer to make my own costumes.

[13:29] Melissa: Wow. That's beautiful stitching.

[13:32] Droppo the Clown: Thank you. I take a lot of pride in it. Tailoring is kind of a dying art, you know.

[13:37] Melissa: Kind of like clowning, I guess.

[13:40] Droppo the Clown: I love this color.

[13:42] Melissa: Do you?

[13:43] Droppo the Clown: Oh, and it's my favorite too. I mean, it has to be bright. That's a part of the clown thing. I still think the right colors are what really pull an outfit together.

[13:55] Melissa: Absolutely. Did you make the horn too?

[13:59] Droppo the Clown: No, it's just a regular horn. Old fashioned bike horn, probably made in China.

[14:06] Melissa: Can I?

[14:09] Droppo the Clown: Oh!

[14:11] Melissa: Well, I wasn't expecting that. Oh, this is the closest I've been to a clown since I don't feel frightened at all.

[14:26] Droppo the Clown: Good. That's good. Really, really good. What's her name?

[14:32] Droppo the Clown: Dropo.

[14:34] Droppo the Clown: Droppo the clown, it's kind of my stick, you know. I'm clumsy. Drop things. Dropo.

[14:39] Melissa: That's why you dropped your horn when you first showed up.

[14:43] Droppo the Clown: That's why I dropped my horn.

[14:46] Melissa: Dropo?

[14:47] Droppo the Clown: Yeah. There's something I need to tell you.

[14:51] Melissa: Oh.

[14:52] Melissa: I love my husband very much. And he's probably on his way back from the store right now.

[15:00] Droppo the Clown: Yeah, sure. That makes sense when people go to the store, they usually come back from the store.

[15:07] Melissa: Yes, they do. Maybe I should go.

[15:10] Droppo the Clown: I think so. But thank you for everything.

[15:16] Droppo the Clown: No problem. Droppo, could I maybe ask you for one little favor?

[15:22] Droppo the Clown: Name it.

[15:23] Melissa: This is gonna sound ridiculous, but can I have your nose? Your big red clown nose.

[15:33] Droppo the Clown: My big Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. Here you go. In fact, take the horn too. You never know when you might need a clown horn. They're both yours. And I'm gonna say goodbye now, Melissa.

[15:50] Melissa: Goodbye, Dropo.

[15:59] Doug: Oh. Hey, I just saw Dropo heading up. Tell me, how'd it go?

[16:07] Melissa: Good. Really, really, really good.

[16:10] Doug: Can you sit down, Hun?

[16:13] Melissa: Why?

[16:15] Doug: Because I have a present for you.

[16:18] Doug: For both of us.

[16:19] Melissa: Oh, great. What is it?

[16:22] Doug: Ah, that's a clown nose.

[16:25] Melissa: A big red clown nose.

[16:28] Doug: Yes, it is.

[16:29] Melissa: Oh, and a clown horn too.

[16:31] Doug: Look at that.

[16:31] Melissa: And a clown horn too.

[16:34] Doug: Put it on.

[16:36] Melissa: Put it on?

[16:37] Doug: Oh, oh, you mean the big red nose?

[16:39] Melissa: Yeah.

[16:40] Doug: Well, uh, sure. Uh maybe I'll just, you know, I'll put it on for a second. It might be fun.

[16:46] Melissa: It might be.

[16:48] Doug: What should I put it on right now?

[16:50] Melissa: You should put it on right now.

[16:52] Doug: All right. Uh well, there we go. How do I look?

[17:00] Melissa: Are you okay?

[17:06] Doug: Melissa, did you want to uh oh that was IMMERSION THERAPY, written by David MacGregor. It was performed by Devon McSherry as Melissa, myself as Doug, and Tommy Cooper as Droppo the Clown.

[17:23] Jonathan Cook: All right, joining me now is the writer of the story you just heard. He's a playwright based in Michigan, and he's the resident artist of the highly acclaimed Purple Rose Theater. His plays have been seen all over the world, and his scripts have been published by Smith and Krause, Applause, Dramatic Publishing, and others. Ladies and gentlemen, this is David MacGregor.

[17:42] David MacGregor: How are you, sir?

[17:43] Jonathan Cook: I'm just happy to be here. It's two degrees outside, so this is nice.

[17:48] Jonathan Cook: So with me now is also Devon McSherry. She was the voice actress for the story that people just heard. She was Melissa in your play, IMMERSION THERAPY.

[17:59] Devon McSherry: Hello, thank you for having me.

[18:00] Jonathan Cook: All right, so I actually should say welcome back, because you know some people may or may not remember, but in the first year of this podcast, I produced her play, Just Desserts. And actually you were the that was the first play that I produced. It wasn't one of my own plays. Because at the time I didn't know where this thing was going. I didn't know what I was doing, and honestly, I was just kind of terrified to reach out to other writers and ask them to produce their work. So the first five episodes were my own plays, and then for the sixth one, I reached out to you about Just Desserts. And also I didn't have the format established yet for doing interviews after the plays back then. So anyone that listens to that old episode won't hear me chatting with you after, but here we are with your play IMMERSION THERAPY. So for people that aren't familiar with you and your work, could you give us a little background on how you got your playwright superpowers and your writing journey?

[19:00] David MacGregor: My mom saw a classified ad in a newspaper. And I'll give you my best my mom impersonation. My mom was Scottish, and she was looking at the newspaper and she said, Oh, David, look at this. There's a wee theater, they're putting on plays. You should write a play. And I thought, yeah, I should write a play. That'd be fun. Because I, you know, I'd written like short stories and things like that. And so I wrote a short play, and it appeared in a one-act play festival. And as you know, is often the case, the festival asked me, do you want to direct it? And I said, Yeah. So I kind of got thrown in the deep end. And it's a one-act play festival, so it's a little crazy. You know, me and my cast would run across the street to the bar across the road and drink White Russians and then run back and do our show. And I just I love the whole concept of it. I love the collaboration. I love the creativity of other people, and I just kept going from there.

[20:00] Jonathan Cook: Awesome. So now your play that everyone just heard, IMMERSION THERAPY. Now I know this play has had a few productions, and it's got a hilarious premise. You got this wife who's terrified of clowns, and the husband, you know, his idea of a good present this year would be to try to get her over that fear with this form of immersion therapy by giving her a clown for her birthday. And I love the way you wrote it. I love how it unfolds, and because you don't know how the wife is gonna react to this along the way, and it just all unfolds perfectly. So at the time that you wrote this play, what was your process for putting it all together and all that?

[20:42] David MacGregor: Well, I can't remember exactly, and I'm not even gonna pretend I have a process, it's just ideas, situations, characters pop into my head. And about the same time I had this idea of what's because I love getting people gifts. And what I kind of discovered over the years is that experiences are way better than things. And so I just started thinking, what's the best gift you could give somebody? And I actually, around the time I wrote IMMERSION THERAPY, I wrote a companion piece called Fixing Bob, in which it's a wife getting her husband the best birthday present in the world. And in that play, the present is she's going to castrate him. Which it may not sound it's off-putting at first flush, right?

But as she explains it to a friend of hers, it's the best present ever because you know, their health insurance doesn't cover vasectomies, he won't lose his hair, he won't get testicular cancer, eunuchs live longer. It's you know, plus plus, plus, plus. So kind of like IMMERSION THERAPY, it's like at first glance, it seems horrible, beyond horrible, but it's actually you know, the most loving, thoughtful gift that you could possibly get your partner.

[22:05] Jonathan Cook: Okay, so I have to ask, I was talking to Jonathan while we were recording, and I said, if my husband locked me in a room full of spiders, I would divorce him. Like this would not be a good present in my mind. So do you think that facing your biggest fear would be a good present for you personally?

[22:23] David MacGregor: Well, I don't have anything approaching that kind of phobia. But immersion therapy is a thing. It's like I just didn't make that up out of whole cloth, and it does make sense. You're kind of you know making an effort to desensitize somebody, whether it's spiders or claustrophobia or clowns, because it is an irrational fear, you know, and it does, and it can. I mean, certainly in the cases of people that are like, for example, afraid of acrophobia, they're afraid of going outside. It can severely compromise the quality of people's lives. So I just took this, you know, this concept of immersion therapy, and yeah, I like the absurdity of it. And I am kind of drawn to dark comedy. Like it's funny, but it shouldn't be funny.

And yeah, I wouldn't I yeah, you know, I wouldn't say I'm afraid of clowns. I'm not crazy about clowns. Clowns it's like you know, they got all that makeup on, and it's like, yeah, you're hiding something. Maybe there's a little bit of John Wayne Gacy in there. I don't know. So I wouldn't say I fear them, but if I'm in their presence, I keep an eye on them.

[23:39] Jonathan Cook: So with that in mind, Devin, when I asked you to play this role, and I sent you the script, what were your first thoughts and how did you go about trying to become this character going through this immersion therapy?

[23:52] Devon McSherry: Think about it as spiders, like yeah, yeah. So when I first read it, it was I didn't know it was gonna happen. It was very much a roller coaster. And like in the middle of the script, Dropo says, Well, that I wasn't expecting that.

[24:09] David MacGregor: And so I kind of have that same whiplash. But the idea, I also enjoyed dark comedies and kind of pushing things into absurd. So I knew it would be a challenge because she goes through such a range of emotions, like she starts out excited and hopeful and then terrified, and then she's going through some drama from her childhood. And by the end, she's real excited that her husband is home. So I knew it was gonna be a challenge, and I kind of just wanted to jump in, and I knew you would support me and help guide me, so yeah, and as far as because I played the husband part in this one, and I kind of like his attitude towards it. He's like he gets her these cool gifts every year, and then with this thing that he knows that she's scared of, he's just kind of blasé about it.

He's like, "Oh, let's just see how it goes, you know. I'll be back in a few. Just do your thing." And I just love that his attitude towards it. It just kind of gives it another layer of that dark humor that we all love. Like he has no doubt that he is not gonna get in trouble with her. Like she's gonna be fine with this gift, it seems. Yeah, he has her best interests at heart. Yeah, it's well intentioned. I mean, as a slight tangent, I can tell you like that last year there was a theater in Illinois that was putting out a one-act festival, and they you know, you send in plays and they said, "Yeah, we really want to do this," and okay, fine, that'd be great. And then like a month before the festival was supposed to start, I got an email from the woman directing it, and she basically said, "Yeah, I read this through really quickly, and I thought it was great.

And I just read it again, and yeah, you need to change this play." I was like, "What do you mean?" And she's like, "Well, you know, the fact that the female character has sexual feelings of some kind, some way. She's not 18, she's not 18." And I go, "Yeah." She goes, "Well, you need to change that." And I just, yeah, that's not happening. Just pull the play. That's not, we won't do the play. And to their credit, the theater was incredibly apologetic, and they're doing it this year without her directing. Oh, wow. You know, I mean, she's inherently underage when she's going through this play. So it's, I don't call it. Well, you know, as you guys know, your sexuality switches on like that on your 18th birthday.

Prior to that, you have no interest in anything along those lines at all. Exactly. It's a light bulb that switches on. Yeah. So well, that's cool how that worked out. How the person that kind of made you pull the play is gone now, and now they're wanting to do it. Well, David, she would have been happy to do the play if I made all the characters 18. But like you, Jonathan, I'm an arrogant, you know, playwright that do it my way, or you're not doing it.

[27:16] Jonathan Cook: So I don't know. I don't know if Jonathan told you that you know he and I met in Brockport, New York.

[27:21] David MacGregor: Oh, yeah, yeah. Let's do that. Let's do that flashback real quick. So it's 2015. Me and David here, we had our plays selected for the SUNY Brockport University 10-minute play festival. I forget the exact name of it. And then they don't pay for travel, but when you get there, they pay for your, they give you bed and breakfast, they give you a place to stay, and it was just it was a fun experience. And out of all the writers that got accepted, like me and David were the only ones that were available to make it that weekend. And that was honestly for my own personal writing journey, that was one of the highlights because not only did the university do an awesome production of my play, which was the play transferring Kyle, but I also met you, which you were at the time I 2015, I was still new at this, I didn't know what I was doing, and meeting you and just knowing all that you've done, all that you've accomplished.

Because you know, like all the playwrights do, when we get accepted to a festival, we look into all the other writers that also got accepted just to see. We read the bios and stuff, and just seeing everything you'd already done, all the plays you have produced around the world, your full-length play, Vino Veritas had already been made into a full-length movie with notable actors. You know, Carrie Preston from True Blood was in it. And you just had so much going on, and it was just inspiring to meet you and knowing that you're just like me, you know, that you're just you go through the same struggles, you go through the same successes getting accepted and all that. So yeah, so here we are, you know, was it nine years later?

[28:57] David MacGregor: Yeah. Well, I just remember like the bed and breakfast they put us up, and it was everybody was so lovely, but it was kind of like this Norman Bates house.

[29:08] Jonathan Cook: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[29:08] David MacGregor: Like a little Victorian, a little bit run down, and it was yeah, slightly creepy. But you know, I was glad I had you know Jonathan there, so I've got a partner in crime, like they're gonna have to kill two of us.

[29:21] Jonathan Cook: That's right. It's just inspiration for something else to write. It also meeting you there, because Patrick Gabridge was in that festival with us, but he couldn't make it to the festival, which his play Beatrix Potter Must Die, which I've produced I've produced Patrick's work a couple of times now on this podcast. But when I met you and you brought him up, you were the first person to ever tell me about the playwright bench. That's how I discovered it. And I think at the time, I think it was just like a Yahoo group. It wasn't what it is today. But when because I remember when I got home from that weekend, the first thing I did was I went on there and I signed up, and ever since then, Patrick and you and the playwright binge has been such an integral part to me getting productions of my plays in other places. So yeah, thank you for that as well.

[30:10] David MacGregor: Well, I have never met Patrick, but he's clearly like a guiding light and patron saint of playwrights because he's so well intentioned. And he's you know, anything that he writes is you know, not just his plays, he's a really you know, he's an outstanding playwright, but he's just a very fair-minded civil guy. And as you know, a lot of writers are you know, they're very kind of almost paranoid and kind of high-strung, and why am I not getting more productions? And am I being kind of you know, selected out for whatever reason? And he's always a voice of reason, and that's what I appreciate most about him.

[30:48] Jonathan Cook: Oh yeah, he's a very, very great guy. And my chats with him like this after producing his couple of plays I did. He said he's so down to earth and just he just wants to see everyone succeed, which is a good quality for every writer, actually every field that you are that you're in, it's a good quality to have. As far as immersion therapy and all the productions of it, you seem like a writer that actually goes out and tries to see your plays when they get produced, if you can. So have you seen any productions of immersion therapy by other theaters out there?

[31:25] David MacGregor: Yeah, I've seen I think I've seen it twice, I want to say. I do try to make it if I can make it. I live in Michigan, so if stuff is done in like Ohio or Illinois or Michigan, I try to make it once in a while, New York. You know, for a long time, my daughter, who's now 22. But if it was during the summer, I mean, she and I would just drive, we just go, you know, and so I've seen a couple of productions, and I really like it's one thing to do an audio version of it, but just the moment when the clown comes in, you get a very visceral response from the audience. It's oh holy shit. This is gonna be whereas funny and horrible. Yeah, so with the audio version, you don't get the visual of that, but you do hear the squeaky shoes.

Oh, that's like that. I like that, yeah. So there's a little something there to make you be like, huh, what's happening here? You got some big stuff coming up. The Antichrist Cometh is a full-length play that you're gonna have a premiere of in March at Purple Rose Theater. Tell us about that. And in that, you know, that's another play of dark comedy, which you know, when I read the script, I just I loved every minute of it. Tell us about that and your premiere of that you got coming up.

[32:53] David MacGregor: Well, it's a comedy about well, we'll just Devin, you can appreciate this. The guy you're sitting next to, the nice normal, perfectly, you know, normal guy who realizes one day he might be the antichrist. He's not sure. And the woman who loves him doesn't matter if he's the antichrist or not. She loves this guy. And many, many years ago, I mean, I'm not religious in any sense, but you know, I've read the Bible and the Quran and you know, the Hindu code of Manu, et cetera, et cetera, just because they tell you so much about human beings, you know, hopes, fears, dreams, all that. And I remember reading the book of Revelation and it lays it all out. It says, well, yeah, the Antichrist arrives on Earth, assembles an army of deceived people, wages war on God, loses, gets thrown into the ever-burning lake of fire for eternity.

I just thought, what if the antichrist reads this? You know, he knows he loses, so what's his motivation? And that always kind of was, you know, percolating or ticking away in the back of my head. And I thought I'm gonna try to write a play about this. And you know, it's a play, it's a comedy, it's a dark comedy, and just walk that little tightrope of maybe he is, maybe he isn't. And I'm pretty we'll see how people react to it. I'm really pleased with the way it ended up. I mean, I'm certainly I'm not trying to preach anything, and I'm not hammering religion in any way, sense, or form. I'm just it's a story about in my mind, it's a love story. It's a love story about the antichrist and his partner. Or he may not be the antichrist. The possible antichrist. It's never guaranteed. I'm not gonna spoil anything, but well, it sounds like a show I would like to see.

[34:45] Jonathan Cook: Well, I mean, for you, I mean, so certainly for you guys or any of your listeners, as the theoretically esteemed playwright, I get two comp tickets to every show. So if you want to see it, come on up, I'll get you tickets, and I can make restaurant recommendations. And if you've never been to the Purple Rose Theater in Michigan, it's a theater that was started in the early 1990s by the actor Jeff Daniels, who is still the artistic director, and he's a lovely guy. He's completely devoted to it. He's very hands-on. Currently, the Purple Rose is producing a play of his, a comedy called Diva Royale. And it's a kind of intimate theater. Traditionally 168 seats. They've opened it up. They're doing a season in the round this season, so it's I think closer to 200 seats.

But the production qualities are off the charts, amazing. All the you know, the designers, sound set, props, everything is first class. And that's as Jonathan would, you know, I think echo. That's the beautiful part about theater is when you work with people that are incredibly talented and just as passionate about it as you. And I just have to, I stay in my lane, you know. You know, I'm script boy, you know, like Jonathan was mentioning when they were making, I was on the set when they were making a feature film on one of my plays.

[36:09] David MacGregor: I was coffee boy. I, you know, I ran out to get Starbucks for everybody. Uh because I'm I, you know, if they have questions about the script, I'm there, but other than that, I am just there to help out in any way I can possibly help out. So it's a great theater. It's been around for more than, you know, 30 years now. And uh it's just terrific to have an artistic home, which I do have.

[36:32] Jonathan Cook: Because you're the resident artist at Purple Rose Theater. How did you get involved with that? And how long have you been, uh, how long have you had that collaboration?

[36:40] David MacGregor: Uh well, they have a number of resident artists of which I'm one. Um the dark seamy secret of how I got involved is I, I knew about them. I'd heard about them. They're the big deal, right? They've got this movie star as their artistic director, and you know, I wrote a short play as I indicated, you know, based on an ad in a newspaper, and I thought I'm gonna write a full-length play. And I did, I wrote a full-length play, and I thought I'm gonna send it to them. They promote Midwest Michigan talent, you know. Lucky them, I'm sending them my play, and I did. And I got a letter saying back saying, get lost, which I thought that's cold. But uh, as Jonathan notes, there's a fine line between persistence and being too stupid to know when to quit.

[37:32] David MacGregor: So I sent it to a theater out in California called B Street Theater, uh, which is run by, at the time, I think it still is run by Buck Busfield, brother of Tim Busfield, the actor. Um, and they said, Yeah, we want to do this, and they were great. You know, they flew me out there, it was a world premiere. And then I don't know, like five months later, I got a phone call from the Purple Rose Theater saying, Is this David MacGregor? We understand you had a play produced on the West Coast. Can we see it? You've already seen it. And I was like, Yeah, why not? I'll send it. So I sent them the same play they had directed and apparently, or rejected. Apparently, whoever had rejected it was no longer with the theater.

Yeah, you never know with a play. It's like wrong person, wrong day, wrong time. They didn't like it. Uh, but I sent it back in, and like within two days, I was sitting across from Jeff Daniels at a bar, and he was saying, 'Yeah, we want to do your next five plays.'

[38:34] Jonathan Cook: Wow.

[38:35] David MacGregor: And wow, yeah. Oh, all right, I'm in. And uh, so that was, they did a play of mine. The first play that they did of mine was in 2006. Uh The Antichrist Cometh is my tenth production there.

[38:49] Jonathan Cook: Wow, that is, uh, that's amazing. That's like, uh, I think every writer out there would just love to have that same being a resident artist at a theater that really focuses on you and appreciates your work and is willing to give you, you know, before you even wrote them, they just said, here, we want to do your next five plays.

[39:07] David MacGregor: Well, I think that sounded good to say at the time the place I, I think they had to be somewhat decent. Like the next one I wrote was the play Vino Veritas, which has done really well. I mean, it's still being produced, it's getting produced next month in Delaware. It was produced, it had 12 productions at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival last August. It was made into a film, etc. Um, then a couple of years ago, no, 2018. I got it in my head. Uh, you know, it'd be fun to write a Sherlock Holmes play. It's like a character I've always liked. And I thought, yeah, why not? And I wrote it, and they were really happy with it. They wanted to do a new, you know, Sherlock Holmes play. And I thought, okay, well, you know, done and done.

But it did so well, they kept asking me, they said, Can you write another one? Yeah. And so I wrote, and then they said, Can you write another one? And so I ended up writing three Sherlock Holmes plays for them that ended up, they're all published by, you know, Theatrical Works Worldwide.

[40:09] David MacGregor: And uh during COVID, you know, theaters are shut down. I, uh adapted them all into novels. Oh, and the novels got published by, uh, a publishing company in London and are currently being translated into Italian of all things.

[40:23] Jonathan Cook: Oh, that's amazing.

[40:25] David MacGregor: Which is pretty cool to see your name on a book with a cover in Italian. So, uh, and obviously I'm piggy, I'm piggybacking on the fame and the popularity of Sherlock Holmes, and I feel slightly guilty about that. But luckily he's in the public domain. Um, but yeah, I'm stepping away from the Sherlock Holmes to start doing, you're gonna start doing stories about, uh, Steamboat Willie now since, uh, since he's available.

[40:51] Jonathan Cook: I could do, yeah, well, every, it's like it's 95 years, you know, 95 years, and uh, yeah, you could do Steamboat Willie. There was people doing Sherlock Holmes before that, but the, uh, uh, the estate of Arthur Conan Doyle was very litigious because they want, they wanted the money, they wanted the money, and so, uh, but that's no longer really an issue, thank goodness.

[41:12] Jonathan Cook: Now you're also a writing teacher.

[41:15] David MacGregor: I teach at Wayne State University in lovely Detroit, Michigan.

[41:19] Jonathan Cook: Okay, so what are your, uh, students think about all your success with playwriting and, uh, have you had any, uh, that you've mentored, uh, to get their works out there as well?

[41:29] David MacGregor: Uh well, I'm not allowed to teach creative writing because I'm not a full-time faculty, right? So I teach like intermediate composition and things like that, but in the course of doing that, I regularly run into students that want to write plays, want to write screenplays, or they're in, uh, in drama, you know, they're doing productions, and you know, because they're my students. I, you know, if I have a play going on, I always get them tickets that they can check it out. Um, yeah, well, it's odd, like when people figure stuff out, it's the age of the internet, you know, everyone's got their phone, everyone's got their laptop, and you know, generally like first couple classes, there will be this epiphany moment with people googling frantically, and they're like, Oh my god, you're on IMDb.

Yeah, so it's like all of a sudden it's like you matter, you know, you're somebody I'm gonna listen to you now. Yeah, we thought you were just this know-nothing professor. Um, but yeah, but yeah now we're in the beautiful wonderful age of chat GPT where nobody has to write anything ever so that's the battle that, uh, all writing teachers are currently facing.

[41:57] Jonathan Cook: Now before we wrap up, there's something I want you to do for me. Um, you wrote a full-length play that's not on the new play exchange called In the Land of Fire and Ice. That one is in pre-production to be made into a film and you have an actress attached to it, uh, Shohreh Aghdashloo, I think I hope saying that name right. Um, but she was recently seen in the movie Renfield among many other things. Uh, so what is, uh, what is that the process on getting, uh, and getting that film made from your play? Is it similar to what you did with the other one?

[41:57] David MacGregor: Well, this I never wrote this as a play. Uh, the director who directed the feature film version of Vino Veritas asked me if I would be interested in collaborating with her on another project, and so, uh, her name's Sarah Knight. Um, she's a, uh, director who lives in New York, and so between us, uh, you know, the idea was I would write it, she would direct it, and it's, uh, it's a, you know, film-wise it's a tough sell because the protagonist is a middle-aged woman, you know, um, a Middle Eastern middle-aged woman, Shohreh, uh, who I met. I, you know, we met in Toronto. She's absolutely lovely. Um, and so it won. There's a screenwriting award for best screenplays featuring female protagonists called the Athena Award.

Uh, so the screenplay won that. It's won a couple of other things. It does have, uh, producers attached to it. Uh, and we'll see. You know, it literally, uh, Michael Keaton's agent loved it. So, um, she's taking it to him. I know he, you know, he's very, very, very, very picky about what he does. So it's in a position of waiting for, uh, you know, a little bit of funding and a male lead. Um, so we shall see. It's, as they say, in development, which can last two weeks or 15 years. So we'll see. But yeah, that I never wrote that as a play. That's strictly a movie. It's about a Middle Eastern, uh, banking genius guru woman, uh, that needs to flee for, uh, reasons and ends up in Iceland trying to figure out what to do with her life.

[44:57] Jonathan Cook: All right, David. So where can people find you? Do you got a website or any social media that you're active on?

[45:03] David MacGregor: I've got stuff listed on, uh, the NPX. I've, you know, I've got my own website. A friend of mine, uh, was kind enough to assemble a website for me, uh, for free, but you know, she knows I owe her forever. She can hold that over my head. And the thing she needs me to do. Can you look at this for me? Yes, of course I can. Um, so yeah, if people are interested, it's just my name, DavidMcGregor.com. And I've got plays there. You can read them. They're on MPX. And I'm easy to find. And I'm, you know, I'm pretty good with other human beings for up to like 45 minutes at a time. After that, things just died.

[45:46] Jonathan Cook: Yeah, I guess we should wrap this up pretty quick then.

[45:50] David MacGregor: All right.

[45:50] Jonathan Cook: Yeah. Well, and there is a lovely amazing bed and breakfast literally a hundred yards from the Purple Rose Theater. And it's a, it's a town. It's a tiny little town, but because that theater's there, there's a lot of great restaurants because it's a destination. People come and, you know, the Purple Rose does plays Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Um, it's, uh, it's a destination that people go to and so the restaurants kind of reflect the quality of the, uh, the theater. It's very, very, very cool.

[46:16] David MacGregor: Well I hope to, uh, to make that journey and, uh, and, uh, really appreciate you letting us do IMMERSION THERAPY. Devin, thank you for taking the part of Melissa on. Uh, David, thank you for writing it, and I really hope that we can collaborate again in the future.

[46:33] David MacGregor: Yeah, that would be great. I think what you're doing, what you're attempting, it's so ambitious and you're doing such an amazing job with it. I'm really genuinely delighted to be a part of it. So anything else that we can collaborate on in the future, just sign me up.

[46:46] Jonathan Cook: Oh no, you'll be hearing from me for sure. I love your work, dude.

[46:49] David MacGregor: Okay, thanks.

[46:52] Jonathan Cook: Thank you all for listening, and if you are associated with a theater and you would like to produce the play you heard today on your stage, send an email to info at gather by the ghostlight.com or contact the playwright directly at his website, david-mcgregor.com. And if you would like to have some cool Gather by the Ghost Light merchandise, t-shirts are available at the merchandise link in the show notes, and you can also find the Gather by the Ghost Light annual companion books available at Amazon. Intro and Outro Music, as always, is provided by artist JK47. And if you enjoy this podcast, maybe you're a longtime listener, or maybe this is the first episode you've ever heard. Let us know, please. Leave us a rating or a review in all the places that you can, and also be sure to follow Gather by the Ghost Light on social media to stay up to date on new episodes. I'm Jonathan Cook, and as always, stay safe, and I'll see you next time we Gather by the Ghost Light.