This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:01] Ben Rimalower: Welcome to Giants in the Sky, how Sondheim and Lapine went Into the Woods with me, Ben Rimalower. Today's guest is Paul Ford, the Original Pianist. Paul Ford has been the pianist for 19 Broadway shows, including Into the Woods, Sunday in the Park with George, Assassins, and Panic!

[0:16] Ben Rimalower: He has accompanied Mandy Patinkin and Patti LuPone in concerts all around the world, and is the author of *Lord Knows At Least I Was There*, working with Stephen Sondheim.

[0:41] Ben Rimalower: Tell me about your journey with Into the Woods. I mean, you were involved with it in a very intimate way for quite a long time.

[0:54] Paul Ford: I just finished *Rags*, deeply depressed. And so I went to Paul Gimignani and I said, I know you've already started doing readings of Into the Woods, but is there any chance of getting on that show? And he immediately put me on it.

[1:16] Paul Ford: And I felt like a friend of mine had been working on it. So I kind of stepped in and kind of yanked it away, I've always felt. And so I was given a score, I was given a tape of the reading. And actually, I reread my chapter in my own book yesterday, so I would be familiar with a timeline.

[1:42] Paul Ford: And then I went to see the revival yesterday afternoon.

[1:45] Ben Rimalower: Was this your first time seeing the revival?

[1:48] Paul Ford: Yes.

[1:49] Ben Rimalower: And your first time seeing any revival, is that right?

[1:52] Paul Ford: Oh, no, no, I've seen revivals. Into the Woods, I saw the Alliance Theatre production a number of years ago in Atlanta, Georgia.

[2:02] Ben Rimalower: What was that production?

[2:04] Paul Ford: Oh, Walter Hudson played the mysterious man. Barbara, somebody played Jack's mother. These were New Yorkers. Everybody else was local.

[2:14] Ben Rimalower: Was it Barbara Luna?

[2:16] Paul Ford: No, no, God no. She was in *West Side Story* at Lincoln Center in '67 when I saw my first Broadway show. She was a new one.

[2:27] Paul Ford: Oh, no, that's why she was in my head from your book. No, I meant Barbara Andres. Is that the woman's name?

[2:34] Paul Ford: No, no.

[2:35] Ben Rimalower: I'll stop guessing.

[2:37] Paul Ford: I'll stop guessing.

[2:39] Paul Ford: Anyway, so I think the first thing, so I got what was there, the score.

[2:45] Ben Rimalower: Which was what?

[2:49] Paul Ford: The opening number always, all 45 parts of it. And maybe their magic, which was extremely long.

[2:59] Paul Ford: And it was just reduced to one chorus. Maybe the agonies. And then a very short Giants in the Sky, which really had no relation to what finally happened.

[3:13] Ben Rimalower: Now, let me ask you, starting with that opening number, was it the opening number you say always? So was it essentially the version of the opening number that we've come to know?

[3:23] Paul Ford: Yes, it really was. You know, because, you know, it included the witch's rap and everything.

[3:30] Paul Ford: And just everything pretty much stayed the same with that.

[3:35] Ben Rimalower: And what I mean that, you know, to so many of us that have just known the show so seminally for so many years and so many incarnations. As a Sondheim devotee yourself, coming out of *Sunday in the Park with George*, did you hear that opening number and think, wow, or what was your feeling about it?

[4:00] Paul Ford: Well, to be perfectly honest, I was looking for a song.

[4:05] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[4:07] Paul Ford: And, you know, I know the tune *Into the Woods* is a song. Yeah, the bridge and everything. But it was just it was a lot to take in.

[4:19] Paul Ford: So I was already focused on what keys we were in, what was going to be expected of me.

[4:25] Paul Ford: So I really had no. Oh, hello, little girl was the big number.

[4:31] Paul Ford: Yeah, Steven. He demonstrated it a couple of times and everybody said, oh, wait till you hear that. And so that was a huge number that I had to prepare and a couple of keys because we didn't know.

[4:43] Ben Rimalower: So that's where my focus was. Gotcha.

[4:46] Ben Rimalower: Now, just I want you to tantalize me with that, but staying on the opening number just for a moment. Having had that experience of it, I assume this was 1986.

[4:57] Paul Ford: Yeah. And how's your feeling about that opening number now? Do you look at it as like classic opening number or are you like, I still wish it had more of a song?

[5:16] Paul Ford: It's is a classic. It's.

[5:21] Paul Ford: I know from your book you have a very exacting standard of what you allow into the pantheon in your heart. So I I will I won't be offended on *Into the Woods*'s behalf if it didn't make it.

[5:36] Paul Ford: It's just really long. Yes.

[5:39] Ben Rimalower: Yes. OK. OK. There's a lot of information.

[5:42] Paul Ford: Yeah. I will say it was pretty clear yesterday, but the whole stuff with Cinderella and the birds, you know, all of that's really obscure.

[5:51] Ben Rimalower: It's right. Catch that. Yeah.

[5:54] Paul Ford: And even though even the witch's rap, it's a little hard to to get all of that.

[6:02] Ben Rimalower: You're a first hearing. Yeah.

[6:05] Paul Ford: And let me ask you what when you immediately were working on this, you talk about preparing *Hello, Little Girl*, Different Keys. Was this for another reading, for a workshop, for auditions? What were you working toward?

[6:15] Paul Ford: I was working toward on that. The Old Globe try out.

[6:23] Paul Ford: And I don't we had Ken Marshall as the Cinderella Prince Slash Wolf.

[6:29] Paul Ford: And I think maybe he had done maybe one of those readings.

[6:34] Paul Ford: So I I had to prepare it because, you know, I just knew from *Sunday in the Park with George*, I had to be ready.

[6:42] Ben Rimalower: Yes. So for anything. Yeah.

[6:47] Paul Ford: So these were New York auditions for the upcoming San Diego production after the workshop they had already done.

[6:54] Paul Ford: They'd done. Yes, it was a real basically a reading.

[6:58] Ben Rimalower: And because I've heard sort of it's a little muddled what I've gotten. Like I think I told you I already spoke with James Lapine and it wasn't exactly clear to me. I had heard that there was a reading, an initial reading at Playwrights Horizons and that there was some kind of a workshop prior to San Diego.

[7:16] Ben Rimalower: But James Lapine couldn't even really tell me if those were one in the same or not.

[7:20] Paul Ford: I think they were one in the same. Gotcha.

[7:23] Paul Ford: I do not remember going into a room with a bunch of actors and sitting down and reading the show.

[7:30] Paul Ford: But there was a dim memory of Sondheim actually hearing him do *Hello, Little Girl*.

[7:38] Ben Rimalower: So I don't know when that happened. And so this was you were casting all the roles for San Diego at this point.

[7:46] Paul Ford: Oh, I think a lot of it was cast.

[7:49] Paul Ford: I played some auditions for The Witch for some witches.

[7:57] Paul Ford: Joanna Merlin was the casting director and she may not have used me for any of these auditions.

[8:04] Paul Ford: They may have been auditioning a lot and I just wasn't involved.

[8:08] Ben Rimalower: Gotcha. OK, so just going back to your what what of the score you received, you mentioned the opening number. *Hello, Little Girl* was a big number. And you said that you saw Sondheim perform *Hello, Little Girl*.

[8:19] Paul Ford: Yes. And was that just like at his house in a work session or something or?

[8:24] Paul Ford: I it must have been. And he played it and sang it.

[8:29] Paul Ford: And, you know, of course, he was a raunchy, dirty old man.

[8:32] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[8:36] Paul Ford: And everybody just thought, you know, that's him.

[8:40] Paul Ford: Yeah. Nobody will ever sing it like, you know. Yeah.

[8:51] Paul Ford: And so it reminds me of when they talk about Fred Ebb singing *Liza with a Z*, that it's the you know, the author has the final word on it.

[8:57] Paul Ford: But I you know, all I've unfortunately for me, never heard Sondheim sing *Hello, Little Girl*.

[9:06] Paul Ford: But I did hear him in several interviews and he would even just describe the title lyric as like *Hello, Little Girl*, which fits with the sort of dirty old man.

[9:16] Paul Ford: Right. And is, of course, very different than almost like Shakespearean version that Robert Westenberg delivered.

[9:24] Ben Rimalower: Yes. And I know I know we could talk about this now. Did you see when you saw the new production? Did you see Gavin Creel or one of the temporary?

[9:32] Paul Ford: I saw Mr. Creel yesterday. Because that's certainly a very different take than than I've ever seen on The Wolf before.

[9:38] Paul Ford: Well, we particularly liked when he takes Little Red's arm and puts salt and pepper on it.

[9:43] Paul Ford: Yeah, that was like Warner Brothers cartoon, you know, and then she yanks it away.

[9:48] Paul Ford: It was it was very good. Yeah, because she was fantastic.

[9:48] Paul Ford: Yes. Yes. And so but would you describe what because, you know, I was thinking, is Gavin doing this sort of dirty old man, as you put it, that Sondheim had sort of described? Or is Gavin doing more of like a Disney musical comedy sort of like he's seducing her with rather than, you know, almost a sensual seduction like in the original production?

[10:13] Paul Ford: Is Gavin doing more of a like appealing to Little Red the way in what a child would find appealing, like a Disney kind of bouncy, like sing songy? Was that is that's maybe what I took from it. Does that jive with what you thought?

[10:28] Paul Ford: Well, I was warned that he camps it up a lot. Yes. Yes. And I actually thought all of it was fine. Yeah. And, you know, it was, you know, a feat.

[10:40] Paul Ford: But as far as that number is concerned.

[10:47] Paul Ford: It was just funny. It wasn't threatening. No, no. And when you when Sondheim would do it in the sort of dirty old man style, I assume it was not campy and not funny the way Gavin's was the way Gavin was, but it was campy.

[11:03] Paul Ford: It was campy and was and was, was it funny the way Sondheim did it?

[11:11] Paul Ford: Was Sondheim funny doing it? Yeah, I remember enjoying it a lot. Well, this is this is like, you know, the shows that I did, there were two or three numbers right at the beginning.

[11:24] Paul Ford: And so this one is a very complicated song. And it was just like, oh, my God, how does any singer keep up the music? Yeah. Where is the tune? Yeah. And so it's it's wormy. It's weird. And so listening to him do it or anybody do it.

[11:41] Paul Ford: It's like, you know, are you on the right note? And so I focus on that more than anything. But, of course. But, you know, he he just basically threw up lines like, oh, it'll get them up. And when you're talking to your meal, just kind of like barfed it out.

[12:03] Paul Ford: I do remember Gavin was a little, you know, precise. Yes. Yes. Well, listen, University of Michigan, they they they honor the Sondheimian musical changes. I do remember Robert Westenberg on the line when you're talking to your meal, having more of that tone that you just did.

[12:24] Ben Rimalower: OK, so thank you for giving me the deep dive into *Hello, Little Girl*. This is exactly what I was hoping for from you, Paul. This is great. OK, so then what you said also in the score was that there was a tiny version. Oh, you said there was a long version. You talk about this in your book of *Maybe Their Magic*.

[12:42] Paul Ford: Pages and pages and pages going into other. They're trying to reason things out, you know, like, do we sell this, you know, do we, you know, cheat this kid, you know? So did the Baker have more to do in that version? Was it more of a duet?

[12:58] Paul Ford: Insert because, you know, now if there's in my limited, certainly compared to the Paul Ford, Stephen Sondheim oeuvre in my limited experience working on new musicals, I know that, you know, kill your darlings and all that.

[13:13] Paul Ford: And, you know, but as a fan of *Into the Woods*, I certainly and always leave him wanting more, but certainly *Maybe Their Magic* always leaves me wanting more.

[13:23] Paul Ford: I mean, it comes out of this this beautiful moment, one of the most simple, melodic, you know, of goodbye, old friend. Goodbye, old pal. And, you know, and it goes so gorgeously into this this moment for the Baker's wife, which is, I mean, I started crying when I saw Sara Bareilles do it the first time at City Center.

[13:44] Paul Ford: Just because it's, I don't know, it's there's something so earnest in her, I guess, moral compromise or whatever.

[13:56] Paul Ford: And, you know, I guess that's what bites them in the ass in the second act, in a sense, is all the moral compromises.

[14:01] Paul Ford: But you're so on her side in that moment and it's so well musicalized.

[14:06] Paul Ford: So it's heartbreaking and tantalizing to hear that there was a much, much longer version. I wonder why that doesn't appear in any of these endless Sondheim cabaret style, you know, whatever's.

[14:20] Paul Ford: I don't have a copy of it.

[14:22] Paul Ford: You saw her. I mean, it was so it was so quick to go and I worked on it like crazy because it was all over the place.

[14:30] Paul Ford: I mean, were there more repeats of the tune we hear in in the version that exists now?

[14:39] Paul Ford: Yes, and there was other stuff too. I can't be specific.

[14:42] Ben Rimalower: No, and I think, if I'm remembering your book correctly, that you described that some pieces of that that had been removed were then used in a different version of one of the Midnights or something, is that right?

[14:55] Paul Ford: No, no. What I said was the second Midnight production number.

[14:59] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[15:02] Paul Ford: That, they lifted stuff out, including Children of Melissa.

[15:06] Ben Rimalower: Right, excuse me. Okay, so we're going to have to get to that. But okay, so Maybe Their Magic, today is unfortunately not the day, but you have lit a fire inside me where I find that 3,000-page tome of the original draft.

[15:22] Paul Ford: I know. Is Steve Klar still around?

[15:25] Ben Rimalower: You know what? I've got to find him. But you'll be hearing from me sometime in the next year or 20 years with an invitation to some show where someone is singing the full version of Maybe Their Magic. Maybe.

[15:36] Paul Ford: And okay, so then you said a very short version of Giants in the Sky.

[15:41] Ben Rimalower: Yes. And?

[15:43] Paul Ford: I had a recording of it. I don't have it anymore. That might have surfaced somewhere musically.

[15:50] Ben Rimalower: No, because maybe, you know, on one of the versions of the CD of the original Into the Woods Broadway cast that was released at some point, 10, 15 years ago, do you know where I'm going with this?

[16:01] Paul Ford: Yeah.

[16:03] Ben Rimalower: That it was, there was little demos that were included. It was John Cameron Mitchell singing, maybe this is the Giants in the Sky you're talking about.

[16:14] Paul Ford: Probably so, yeah.

[16:15] Ben Rimalower: And it was Maureen Moore doing Boom Crunch. And I think maybe one or two other tracks. Unfortunately, I don't have that CD anymore, and it's not available streaming. But I got to find those tracks. Do you remember those?

[16:30] Paul Ford: I do remember. I don't think I had them or listened to them, but I was aware of them.

[16:36] Ben Rimalower: And do you remember John Cameron Mitchell or Maureen Moore having any involvement in any of this sort of developmental phase?

[16:44] Paul Ford: Just before I came on.

[16:46] Ben Rimalower: And do you know whether they had done an actual reading or just been sort of friends coming over somewhere to record something?

[16:53] Paul Ford: They might have been in that initial reading that I only heard the audio of.

[16:59] Ben Rimalower: Gotcha. And you said that the Giants in the Sky was shorter and was very different from the version that came to be, or?

[17:07] Paul Ford: It was like a patter song, a very fast, excited patter song without the da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da. It may have been one phrase of that, but it just was, it was just a lot of fast patter.

[17:23] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. And was there any, was there anything else you remember in that initial batch of score you were given?

[17:30] Paul Ford: Oh, well, the initial, yes. Oh, here it is. Back to the Palace was the original Cinderella song.

[17:42] Paul Ford: And I had to work on that here in my apartment with several people who auditioned with it. Most notably, Patty.

[17:51] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[17:52] Paul Ford: Who, you know, learned it thoroughly and she came in, she loved the song, she cried, of course. And then we went in to do it and James said, great, we want you for The Witch. He said, I'm not doing The Witch, I'm doing Cinderella. The end.

[18:10] Paul Ford: But that song lasted well into, yes, it was out by the time we went to San Diego. But I know Kim Crosby had probably learned it.

[18:26] Ben Rimalower: Now, the way that Patty has told the story over the years was that basically the version that you just said, although that then she was in negotiations to be The Witch and that, that they, that it broke down over, I don't know, contract points or I don't even know what, you know, but that she wound up doing Anything Goes instead.

[18:48] Paul Ford: When I did talk to James Lapine, much to my delight, he brought that up and also, you know, described the audition that way. He didn't remember what happened with her and The Witch or negotiations or anything like that, but that he said that they had imagined Cinderella basically as a beauty queen and, you know, she wasn't who they saw. And that they imagined Cinderella singing in a soprano voice, although he said that he felt Patty could have done that.

[19:15] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. I mean, is, I guess, is, could Patty have, aside from acting or being right for the part, could Patty LuPone in 1987 have sung that role?

[19:28] Paul Ford: Not the way it ended up.

[19:30] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[19:30] Paul Ford: And because there was a lot of other material.

[19:33] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[19:33] Paul Ford: Bird stuff.

[19:34] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[19:35] Paul Ford: So happy and just.

[19:37] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[19:40] Paul Ford: No.

[19:41] Ben Rimalower: But what, but what the big solo only went up to like a D or an E flat or something.

[19:45] Paul Ford: So it was.

[19:46] Ben Rimalower: Nothing like that. I mean, did she belt it at the audition? Do you remember that?

[19:49] Paul Ford: No, she kind of mixed it.

[19:51] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[19:51] Paul Ford: She sang it very well.

[19:53] Paul Ford: Back to the Palace. I think in your book, you describe it being a great performance of the number.

[19:59] Ben Rimalower: It was.

[20:00] Paul Ford: She was right on the money.

[20:02] Ben Rimalower: And is that when Kim Crosby came in?

[20:06] Paul Ford: She must have come in right around that time and got it, but I was not there for her auditions.

[20:12] Ben Rimalower: Okay. I want to say something terrible about my feelings about Cinderella and feel free to hang up on me, judge me, whatever, you know, no offense taken.

[20:23] Paul Ford: But I feel a little bit like it's a role like Louise and Gypsy, that people have extremely strong feelings about all the various who they hate, who they love in the role.

[20:35] Ben Rimalower: And to me, they kind of all feel about the same.

[20:38] Paul Ford: Who they love and who they hate in the role, who did you hate in the role?

[20:42] Ben Rimalower: Well, like they talk about like, oh, Laura Benanti was a revelation as Cinderella. I don't like, okay, I'm going to say something that you're going to hang up on. I haven't liked her in anything.

[20:52] Paul Ford: Yeah.

[20:53] Ben Rimalower: And not Gypsy, not Nine, not anything.

[20:57] Paul Ford: Yeah.

[20:57] Ben Rimalower: And I wouldn't want to see her play Cinderella.

[21:00] Paul Ford: Right.

[21:01] Ben Rimalower: Well, but it's okay. So she was Cinderella in the Vanessa Williams. Did you see that one?

[21:06] Paul Ford: I played all the auditions for that.

[21:09] Ben Rimalower: Did she audition?

[21:11] Paul Ford: No, not when I was playing.

[21:13] Ben Rimalower: Not when I was playing.

[21:15] Paul Ford: She might have auditioned with somebody else playing because it was a long time ago. She wasn't, you know, the star. She might have just been handed the role. I mean, she had done a few things, right?

[21:24] Ben Rimalower: So, but, well, there are people that said, and I liked her in the role.

[21:30] Paul Ford: Well, there are people that said, and I liked her in it, full disclosure, but I didn't think she was a revelation. I didn't think she was anything that Kim Crosby hadn't already done beautifully and that I've seen many people do beautifully.

[21:45] Ben Rimalower: So did you feel at the time, what do you think Kim Crosby had that, do you remember anybody else that auditioned for that besides Patti LuPone?

[21:55] Paul Ford: Not right off the bat.

[21:57] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. And do you remember what it was about Kim Crosby that you felt sort of earned it for her?

[22:05] Paul Ford: Well, I think, wasn't she a beauty queen?

[22:08] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[22:10] Paul Ford: Maybe you said that in your book, actually. I have heard that.

[22:13] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. I would think that a clear, unoperatic voice, but a clear, clear soprano.

[22:24] Paul Ford: This is, I want to really highlight this for everybody listening, because this is such a great, important statement about musical theater, especially the more old school kind of musical theater. You know, a clear, this was, I believe your words, a clear, unoperatic voice, but a clear soprano. I mean, that is a rare thing. And I think that's a really great description of what's so appealing about Kim Crosby.

[22:49] Ben Rimalower: Certainly, you know.

[22:51] Paul Ford: You can understand all of her lyrics.

[22:53] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[22:54] Paul Ford: Like, like young Barbara Cook.

[22:56] Ben Rimalower: Like young Barbara, Kim Crosby.

[22:58] Paul Ford: Old Barbara Cook.

[23:00] Ben Rimalower: We got to give Kim Crosby this great compliment she just got from you, Paul.

[23:05] Paul Ford: Like a young Barbara Cook. I mean, you can't do better than that as a Broadway soprano, right?

[23:11] Ben Rimalower: Right. I mean, who would you say with Barbara Cook are the greatest Broadway sopranos, with unoperatic, clear sopranos?

[23:20] Paul Ford: Julie Andrews.

[23:26] Paul Ford: Well, I loved Rebecca Luker.

[23:29] Ben Rimalower: Yes, yes.

[23:31] Paul Ford: And that's...

[23:33] Ben Rimalower: Oh, yeah.

[23:38] Paul Ford: So ask me another question.

[23:40] Ben Rimalower: Yes, you got it.

[23:41] Paul Ford: Okay. So another thing I liked about Kim Crosby, and now I'm violating my own principle of how every Cinderella is the same, but I do appreciate that she could really, and maybe it's because being a beauty queen without any effort at all, she was, of course, a beautiful Disney-style princess, just from the way she looked.

[23:59] Paul Ford: So she was able to play kind of the quirky nerd personality that made Cinderella more interesting. And, you know, it gave the second act, when she makes the choice not to go back to the prince, you believe she's this smart person who has had a different take on the choice that she thought she wanted and all that, you know?

[24:25] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[24:25] Paul Ford: So, okay, Kim Crosby, do you remember casting any of the other parts prior to San Diego?

[24:36] Paul Ford: I just remember people who came in. Yes, Apaisa Merkerson.

[24:42] Ben Rimalower: For the witch?

[24:44] Paul Ford: For something. She came in and sang something, and she was very nice. Alice Playton came in.

[24:52] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[24:53] Paul Ford: Her Little Red, most likely. Wasn't she had to be in her, like, late 40s at that point, right?

[25:00] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, but she could do it.

[25:01] Paul Ford: Wow. And I think she sang, I Happen to Like New York.

[25:08] Paul Ford: And, of course, she went slightly sharp on it, the way she could do it. But also...

[25:15] Ben Rimalower: One quick interruption on Alice Playton, because now that I'm talking to an actual, like, musical prodigy on the subject. I've always been obsessed with Alice Playton from the Sondheim Scrabble Letters concert, singing, you know, Dainty June's part in the If Mama Was Married. Tell me there's a Santa Claus, and that she's not sharp on that recording.

[25:39] Paul Ford: Well, I don't know if you've heard the uncut full thing, where she does There Won't Be Trumpets. And she starts up in a completely different key.

[25:48] Ben Rimalower: Oh, God.

[25:49] Paul Ford: From the pianist, so.

[25:52] Ben Rimalower: All right, we are going to have to excerpt some of that on this podcast.

[25:58] Paul Ford: Okay, fabulous.

[25:59] Ben Rimalower: But she's musically on in If Mama Was Married?

[26:05] Paul Ford: Yes, it's fine.

[26:07] Ben Rimalower: It's exciting.

[26:09] Paul Ford: Yeah, I've always lived for that.

[26:11] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[26:13] Paul Ford: I didn't know much about her. I didn't know, what is it, Henry Sweet Henry, you know, at the time when I was discovering Sondheim and everything.

[26:22] Paul Ford: And the Scrabble Letters concert. But then I remember seeing Seussical on Broadway. And just, like, you know, overly excited about Alice Blayton being there. And of course, she was wonderful. And, okay, I'm sorry. So, Esa-Petha Merkerson, who, of course, is a great actor on Broadway and on television. I don't think I've ever heard her sing.

[26:43] Paul Ford: She might have been in for Jack's mother. I don't know.

[26:45] Ben Rimalower: And am I correct? My understanding is that Jack's mother is a deceptively difficult vocal part.

[26:53] Paul Ford: Oh, yes. Ask Charlotte Rae, who did the national tour.

[26:58] Ben Rimalower: Yes. Now, did you work on that tour?

[27:04] Paul Ford: I think I may have played some auditions. And I went to see a run-through.

[27:08] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Now, because Jack's mother, doesn't she have to hit a G in that Jack, Jack, Jack, head in a sack?

[27:16] Paul Ford: It's high.

[27:16] Ben Rimalower: It's up there.

[27:17] Paul Ford: Yeah. I mean, I was seeing Anne Harada do it.

[27:20] Ben Rimalower: Did you see Anne Harada?

[27:21] Paul Ford: Oh, no, she's not back in it yet, huh?

[27:23] Ben Rimalower: No, the woman that did it yesterday, she didn't make that note.

[27:26] Paul Ford: Oh, wow.

[27:27] Ben Rimalower: That's okay. You know, it's understandable.

[27:30] Paul Ford: Unnecessarily high, frankly.

[27:32] Ben Rimalower: But, I mean, couldn't she have sung lower? But I guess, what's her name?

[27:40] Paul Ford: Oh, God, help me out. The great original Jack's mother.

[27:43] Ben Rimalower: Barbara Brin.

[27:44] Paul Ford: Barbara Brin. She was one of those great, you know, singing actresses who could have a wide range.

[27:54] Ben Rimalower: But I did really love seeing Anne Harada do that in her freak belt voice.

[28:02] Paul Ford: And so, okay, I'm fascinated by Essa Pather-Merkerson. Could she sing, if not that role, something easier?

[28:10] Paul Ford: She wasn't Essa Pather-Merkerson.

[28:13] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[28:14] Paul Ford: Yet. So I didn't know who she was. And I didn't really pay attention because I had to play whatever song she brought in.

[28:21] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Well, there's the big Susan Anton is the big, one of the big stories for The Witch.

[28:28] Paul Ford: Yes, now, just for some of my younger listeners who don't know, can you tell them who Susan Anton is?

[28:35] Paul Ford: Well, if you know who Suzanne Somers is, she's a taller version of Suzanne Somers. And she's a Hollywood blonde. She was in a huge affair with Dudley Moore, who was about four feet tall.

[28:47] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[28:48] Paul Ford: She was about six foot seven. So she came in and auditioned. And you have to read my book to get it.

[28:58] Ben Rimalower: Everyone needs to read your book because, you know, I don't want to act it out here. I didn't know that you'd even written a book.

[29:17] Ben Rimalower: I said, I love Paul Ford. I didn't know he'd written a book. And before I could even buy the book, I mean, he was texting me just a photo of one page of your vivid, I mean, giddy descriptions of, sometimes not so giddy, of the auditions for The Witch. And you mentioned Suzanne Somers, who's a hilarious and hideous story of her audition, and not a hideous woman, but also a hilarious woman, but a hilarious story. Really, people have to read it. And the really sort of heartbreaking tease of the Eartha Kitt audition that you described. And you're also a big fan, I believe, of Petula Clark's audition. I know that she's had a lot of success in musical theatre. I think she's done more performances as Norma Desmond in Sunset Boulevard than many of the women that we would discuss, you know, with that role. But you were a big fan of her audition for Into the Woods.

[30:15] Paul Ford: I was. I mean, I can't believe she was standing right over here. And we did The Witch's Wrap. Your legendary performance in Hell's Kitchen. We did The Witch's Wrap and Boom Crunch. And she came in and read them down, or had looked at them, it was like read them down. So I was like, well, sit down for a minute and tell me about Goodbye, Mr. Chips. When he ends Rainbow. Yeah. And she was really, really nice. When she came in the next day and nailed it. And yeah, I think she was doing her own composing and work and writing for a show in London that prevented her from. And so all these great witch audition stories that people must read your book available in bookstores on Amazon. They can get it on Kindle. Did you do an audio book? I didn't look, by the way.

[31:11] Paul Ford: Yes, you can hear my voice for 15 hours. Fabulous. I'm doing my Elaine Stritch. And I assume you're at Eartha Kitt as well. I think I probably did. It's in there. So all these auditions for The Witch, this was all in the same moment in preparation for the San Diego production.

[31:31] Paul Ford: No, some of these were to replace Bernadette. Oh, okay. Got you. Eartha, Suzanne, but for the initial, it was Susan Anton. Oh, oh, well, first of all, this was, I believe after the, I think it was after the San Diego, because it was strange. You know, Ellen Foley was hired for San Diego. This is after Patti LuPone didn't work out. I think maybe after the San Diego.

[32:12] Paul Ford: Hard for me to remember. Some was before San Diego. Some was after San Diego leading into the Broadway. Now, because I know that Betty Buckley had done the first workshop. She did. And I, you know, there's all this sort of, I'm going to try to get more information from somebody, maybe from Betty Buckley about exactly why it eventually didn't work out. There's various rumors and things have been said, but just in terms of the timing, I believe that whatever went wrong that prevented Betty from moving to Broadway with the show, that the reason she didn't go to San Diego is because I think that's the timing when she replaced Bernadette in Song and Dance. Probably unavailable. And I wonder in, were you a party too, or was there truly just never any consideration of Bernadette Peters who had just triumphed in Sunday in the Park with George to be involved in Into the Woods?

[33:00] Paul Ford: As far as I know, no. I mean, everyone tells the story of Sondheim and Lapine and Bernadette and, you know, that it's been, that it was like just, it had never occurred to anybody until the day that it magically happened, like at the sort of last minute or whatever. Well, there was one thing, it may, you know what, I think it was before San Diego. We had a, there's a woman named Zora Rasmussen. Yeah, it's a wonderful downtown cabaret artist. And yeah, she came in and sang a song called Nowhere to Hide. And Mark Shaman played for her. And I got to sit out and watch and she came in a few times. And, but that was who Paul Giamignani was suggesting some, you know, rocker type.

[34:03] Paul Ford: Yeah. No. And, and so that was not Bernadette. Right. And also, Donna Murphy came in, either before or after San Diego, and did some really hardcore and, you know, number that she brought her own pianist with. Yeah. And would you be in the room when somebody brought their own pianist?

[34:25] Paul Ford: Oh, of course. I would turn pages if they wanted me to. But generally, I would sit out and watch. Yeah, yeah. Leave the room. Why would I ever want to leave the room? Of course. And did you know who Donna Murphy was when she came in at that point? Yes, she had been hired to understudy, I'd seen her in that Song of Singapore.

[34:44] Paul Ford: Oh, and you mentioned in the book that she had been for a short period, Teresa Stratus's understudy. On rags, yes. Right. And then she had left that to be Betty Buckley's replacement. And yes, and she had been the understudy in that. Edwin Drood. Yes. Mr. Bedwin Drood. Okay, so where I believe she also covered Cleo Lane, Another Witch. Probably. So okay, so Donna comes in and, but didn't get the job for years. And then the classic one that Paul said, we need somebody like Debbie Harry.

[35:21] Paul Ford: Yeah. Like The Witch. And so Debbie came over and stood right here and I taught her boom crunch and the rap. And she came in the next day and did not impress James Lapine. Paul wasn't even there. Yeah. And she, you know, she just didn't. And where did this idea that it had to be a rock and roll singer come from? I mean, it doesn't, the material that I've heard doesn't sound very rock and roll.

[35:50] Paul Ford: I think, I think Paul was suggesting a different type from anybody else in the show, from The Baker's Wife, Cinderella, all the other sopranos in the show, to have a different kind of voice and to have somebody, you know, who could, you know, really go out of control and take it to another kind of harsh level. Yeah. And I mean, with Sondheim going, you know, to right toward that end, it's hard to imagine him in that, in that groove. Well, at the moment, there was only the rap and only boom crunch. And boom crunch was meant to be really guttural and mean and everything.

[36:29] Ben Rimalower: So do you remember Ellen Foley auditioning?

[36:43] Paul Ford: No, I don't. But I certainly did the show with her. Yeah. So, so then Ellen got the part for San Diego. Yes. Did you go to San Diego? Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. I know. That's another great chapter in the book. So tell me about that experience of San Diego. It was thrilling.

[37:05] Paul Ford: Yeah. It was also not very difficult, because we kind of rehearsed it well in New York, and got it on the stage. And it was simple staging and simple set design. And it was really just a matter of doing it, you know. And the only thing was that toward the end of the run, a certain composer came in with a new song, and gathered the whole cast on the stage, and then played and sang it. And then everybody went off into their little corners after, you know, and started going, who can make the sunshine? Whatever. And everybody was saying, it's the Candyman. And it's no one is alone.

[37:57] Paul Ford: Yeah, we got over it, because we realized it wasn't really just that first phrase made you go there. No one here to guide you. Who can make the sunrise? I never noticed that until your book. No kidding. No. But I miss everything. I never noticed any of the, what's the Brigadoon song that's in Phantom of the Opera? Slowly come to me, bend to me.

[38:23] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah. How about anyone can whistle?

[38:33] Paul Ford: What's that song that Raoul sings?

[38:37] Ben Rimalower: Oh, you're blowing my mind. Okay, so is it possible that Lloyd Webber stole from Sondheim, who stole from Leslie Brickus?

[38:50] Paul Ford: I doubt if anybody intentionally stole from anybody. Yes, yes. Except possibly Lloyd Webber with Puccini, right? Maybe. Who knows? Who knows?

[39:04] Ben Rimalower: Okay, so they write, so No One Is Alone is out. Were there a lot of changes made during the run in San Diego? Was it treated as sort of workshoppy kind of?

[39:10] Paul Ford: No, it was a full production. We were missing, there was a song, let's see. I think maybe their magic had already been cut down. I don't think On the Steps of the Palace showed up until the pre-Broadway.

[39:35] Paul Ford: So it was still Back to the Palace. I think it was. And Any Moment had a big section of it cut out. And A Very Nice Prince had a huge section cut out, which are both on the original cast recordings. Yes, which, and also the longer version of The Lament, right? From The Witches Act 2.

[40:00] Paul Ford: Stay With Me wasn't anywhere near this production. No, not at all. Not Children Will Listen, not anything.

[40:07] Ben Rimalower: Gotcha. Okay. So, because I love that longer version, especially of A Very Nice Prince. Is that what you just referenced?

[40:14] Paul Ford: Yeah. I love that. Is he sensitive, clever? Just like the agony melody. Yes. Well, that still remained. But there was a whole bunch of other stuff. It's on the recording.

[40:27] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Yeah. And like, for example, that cut to me always seemed like a bad cut. Did you feel at the time like, yeah, yeah, shorten it, shorten it, shorten it?

[40:41] Paul Ford: I'm the kind of guy that thinks all cuts are bad. Right. Yeah. There's a fabulous ongoing debate in your book between Paul Gemignani constantly cutting everything and you just shaking your head as you watch all these beautiful pieces of music just get thrown out.

[41:03] Ben Rimalower: So, okay. And was there a sense, you know, a lot of these shows now, they really use these regional productions as, you know, out-of-town tryouts, even though they're at a non-profit theater. They're very much a pre-Broadway show, the way that an out-of-town tryout would be. Was that the feeling around this production at the Old Globe?

[41:23] Paul Ford: Oh, sure. And were there, I guess it was Rocco Landesman and were they there a lot in San Diego? I don't remember them actually being there. I'm sure they came. Yeah. I'm sure everybody came. Streisand came. Right. Yes. I love reading that.

[41:41] Ben Rimalower: And, oh, by the way, well, you said there was no Children Will Listen at all yet anyway. I wonder what you think of the longer song version of Children Will Listen that Barbara sings and now other people.

[42:03] Paul Ford: Oh, I thought all of that was kind of silly. Yeah. But then those songs are just, you know, it doesn't have much of an ending. But, well, first of all, we did not have that long second midnight number. We had not rehearsed that thing for San Diego. There was a longer version of No More, which had this beautiful music for the mysterious man where he's saying, the garden, I wandered in the garden, da, da, da, da, da, da. So beautiful sung by George Coe of Sorry, Grateful, you know.

[42:31] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. And then that Paul, snip, snip, snip, let's cut out that whole middle part. And it was used as underscoring in the finale of the second act.

[42:46] Paul Ford: But that couldn't have been a Paul Gemignani choice, right? I mean, it's one thing when you're doing a concert version of something somewhere and nobody really knows which score to work from and which is the final version of the show. And what are we doing here? And it can't all be in there. And Paul Gemignani says this is out and everybody says, OK. But well, in the development of Into the Woods, Paul Gemignani said cut this and Sondheim and Lapine deferred.

[43:05] Paul Ford: Well, Paul would call Steve and say, I want to cut this section out. And Steve would invariably say, fine. And he'll patch it up.

[43:19] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. So that whole, I remember that going and thinking, oh, oh, so. Fascinating. OK. And what about other cast members from San Diego? You mentioned George Coe very fondly singing this version of No More. Do you know what happened? Why George Coe was not part of the Broadway production? No, I don't know. And what about anybody else that you remember from the Old Globe production who was, you know, I know Ellen Foley, that was the end of her time until she was a replacement at the very.

[43:56] Paul Ford: Broadway run. I think the same thing happened with Luann Ponce was Little Red Riding Hood.

[44:04] Ben Rimalower: Daniel couldn't do it, I don't believe, so they called her Luann.

[44:08] Paul Ford: Gotcha. Okay, so that was an accommodation. And like you said, Ken Marshall had been the prince and the wolf still.

[44:13] Ben Rimalower: So after San Diego, he was gone.

[44:18] Paul Ford: Yeah. And the next step was another workshop after San Diego.

[44:21] Ben Rimalower: But before we leave, there was one other person who was thoroughly delightful. His name was John Cunningham.

[44:26] Paul Ford: Oh, wonderful. Yeah.

[44:28] Ben Rimalower: The member of the original cast of Company.

[44:31] Paul Ford: Yes. And Zorba. And so he was the narrator. It was a narrator and a mysterious man.

[44:36] Ben Rimalower: So George was the mysterious man. John was the narrator that gets thrown to the...

[44:44] Paul Ford: So when he was about to be thrown to the giant, we had a song called Interesting Questions.

[44:48] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[44:49] Paul Ford: Where he sings, there's an interesting question, and he keeps singing along, and then they interrupt him and throw him to the giant.

[44:54] Ben Rimalower: Hilarious.

[44:55] Paul Ford: Song was cut.

[44:56] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. So, okay. How do you feel, aside from the actual casting, how did it work in your mind, the separation of those characters played by two different actors?

[45:01] Paul Ford: Oh, I thought eventually putting it together was terrific.

[45:05] Ben Rimalower: Terrific.

[45:06] Paul Ford: Just like, I think, in Assassins, having the balladeer become, you know, what's his name?

[45:12] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[45:13] Paul Ford: I thought that was good.

[45:14] Ben Rimalower: Well, in both cases, it seems like your take has been the winning one.

[45:19] Paul Ford: If you say so.

[45:21] Ben Rimalower: Well, because that's how they're both done now, right? I mean, I haven't...

[45:25] Paul Ford: Well, I didn't see Assassins at Classic Stage last year, but certainly the Broadway production and the, what do you call it?

[45:31] Ben Rimalower: Revival.

[45:32] Paul Ford: Yeah. And the...

[45:33] Ben Rimalower: The Revival.

[45:34] Paul Ford: The Revival. And the City Center Encores production was like that. So, I could be wrong about that, and somebody will email me that that was not what they did at Encores, but that's how I remember it.

[45:41] Ben Rimalower: And so, okay. And then, so there was quite a bit of time then that passed from San Diego Workshop till it finally got to Broadway. I mean, it was at least a year, was it not?

[45:48] Paul Ford: It seemed long, but I wouldn't say it was that long.

[45:51] Ben Rimalower: Not long.

[45:52] Paul Ford: Because somewhere between Rags and Into the Woods, we were on Broadway, and that was like '86 to '87. So, I don't think it was...

[45:58] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, right. Good point. But, so you didn't have to go home and look for a job. You were, you knew this was coming.

[46:04] Paul Ford: Actually, I did. I got a job at the York Theater doing The Apple Tree.

[46:09] Ben Rimalower: Oh, wonderful.

[46:10] Paul Ford: So, that was the in-between job.

[46:12] Ben Rimalower: And who was the cast in this 1987 Apple Tree York production?

[46:17] Paul Ford: John Sloman was Alan Alda. Kate... Kathy McGrath. She changed her name so many times, I couldn't remember. Kathy McGrath. She's still around.

[46:24] Ben Rimalower: And Rufus Bonds, Jr. played the Larry Blackguard, and he was in Parade.

[46:30] Paul Ford: Yeah, right. Okay. So, then this workshop happens.

[46:34] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[46:35] Paul Ford: And the workshop was that... I know it was with Betty. Did you work on that workshop?

[46:40] Ben Rimalower: I did.

[46:41] Paul Ford: And that's with Betty Buckley as the witch, right?

[46:43] Ben Rimalower: It was.

[46:44] Paul Ford: And was the rest of the cast more of the people from San Diego, or were they already on the way out?

[46:49] Ben Rimalower: I think Bob Westenberg may have been there.

[46:52] Paul Ford: Yeah.

[46:53] Ben Rimalower: And I think John Cunningham... Maybe Tom Aldridge was brought in?

[46:57] Paul Ford: Yeah.

[46:58] Ben Rimalower: At this point. I'm not sure.

[46:59] Paul Ford: Sure. But it was back with Danielle Furland.

[47:03] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[47:04] Paul Ford: Chip and Joanna.

[47:06] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[47:07] Paul Ford: And Kim Crosby, of course, has done it. But, okay. So, when you say that was a workshop, I mean, was that several weeks long with staging and people costumed and stuff?

[47:14] Paul Ford: No, no, no. It was a literal reading at 890 Broadway with chairs. And it was only a couple of weeks. And so, it was just about kind of catching a few people up. But the main thing about it was James wrote three different versions of the end of the show. One version was basically what it is now and what it was in San Diego. And then there was a version where everybody comes magically to life at the end and all is resolved and happy. And then the third version was everybody dies. Like in Les Mis, everybody gets killed. So, we did three run-throughs with a different ending.

[48:05] Ben Rimalower: And this is fascinating. And you said the version that stuck is not only the one that we have now, but it's the version that had already been done in San Diego.

[48:11] Paul Ford: Yes. Yes.

[48:12] Ben Rimalower: And so, you're talking about, I think, story-wise, but did you at this point yet have Children Will Listen and-

[48:17] Paul Ford: No, we didn't. No, we didn't have any of that yet.

[48:20] Ben Rimalower: No. And so, was there any significant new material in this workshop that had not been in San Diego?

[48:26] Paul Ford: Nope.

[48:27] Ben Rimalower: No. And so, Betty Buckley as The Witch, Tell Me Your Memories, so many of us for so many years, hunger to know what that was like. And the only tapes that I've ever heard are such poor quality that even among bootleg tapes of workshops, they are unlistenable.

[48:39] Paul Ford: Well, all I really remember is that if you say she was maybe the singer on that initial demo recording or that initial-

[48:44] Ben Rimalower: No. No, that was-

[48:46] Paul Ford: Meeting part.

[48:47] Ben Rimalower: Oh, that's right. No, but I think she might. Okay. So, Paul and I went into a rehearsal room with her, and I think the rap number was pretty easy. She may have already learned it for some reason.

[48:55] Paul Ford: Yeah, from the other reading. Yeah.

[48:56] Ben Rimalower: Then we started on Boom Crunch, and we got through it somehow, but all I remember her saying is after I kind of played it through and we kind of went through, she said, I don't feel it that way.

[49:04] Paul Ford: And we just thought, oh, she doesn't see it as a jazz waltz. She feels it some other way. Now, what other way that would be, we never found out. But it's like, should it have been a different time signature? Should it have been faster, slower, with more space? Should it be rewritten totally? We didn't know what she meant.

[49:19] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[49:20] Paul Ford: But she said, I don't feel it that way. It's like, okay.

[49:25] Ben Rimalower: I mean, she talks, there's a book, maybe you've read it, called Nothing Like a Dame by Eddie Shapiro.

[49:30] Paul Ford: No, not yet.

[49:31] Ben Rimalower: It's got these great, very candid conversations with these great Broadway leading ladies, including Betty and Patty and Chita Rivera and a million people. But in the Betty one, she talks about this and she says that James Lapine saw the relationship between Rapunzel and the witch as a lesbian relationship.

[49:45] Paul Ford: If she says that, it certainly has appeared to be that way. Maybe not with Bernadette so much. But I guess that wouldn't have been an issue in Boom Crunch. It was just a musical issue.

[49:56] Ben Rimalower: And there was still no Stay With Me.

[49:58] Paul Ford: There was no Stay With Me. And there was no, what was Our Little World, which was a very funny song.

[50:03] Ben Rimalower: Yes, I love that number. I mean, it's just, I mean, of course, we got to have Bernadette and all the wonderful people that have played the witch. But I do think Betty Buckley would have been so incredible. And it's like, you know, I don't know if you read James Lapine's wonderful book, Putting It Together, about Sunday in the Park with George development.

[50:17] Paul Ford: Only my part.

[50:18] Ben Rimalower: I knew all those other stories.

[50:20] Paul Ford: Yeah, I bet you did. But you know, anyone reading that book, and you could tell us yourself, would be like, stay in there, Betty, they're gonna figure it out, you're gonna get more material, it'll happen. You know, Mandy got lesson number eight, like the week before they open, you know, like...

[50:31] Ben Rimalower: And Bernadette got Children in Art.

[50:32] Paul Ford: And Bernadette got Children in Art. And it's like, how could, and isn't the history of Broadway musicals, sending the clowns in a hotel room in Boston? I mean, like, it's so heartbreaking to think that Betty didn't have that faith.

[50:44] Paul Ford: Well, I don't know what she had or hadn't because you, she might have said something in this other book. But she was there. And then I got a phone call from Sondheim. After that reading was over. Don't tell anybody. And it's like, Steve, first of all, there was no internet. There was nothing back then. And I just said, who am I gonna tell? My mother? You know, don't tell anybody, but bring your music up to Bernadette's apartment. And I said, oh, okay. So grab my music.

[51:10] Ben Rimalower: You immediately realized that was for The Witch, right?

[51:13] Paul Ford: Oh, yeah. And we played, well, we played through the two songs. And then he said, I'm going to write you another song. And she was like, okay. So the next thing we did was another staged in a circle reading in some fabulous townhouse on the east side, in the stair hall with a little piano rolled in. And the cast showed up and this new person came walking in. It's like, honestly, Chip and Joanna were going, oh, no, there go our Tony Awards. They were like, oh, what does this mean? And so Bernadette nailed those two songs and everybody clapped. And then all of a sudden we felt like, okay, now we're on.

[51:56] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. I mean, it is just so it's like the eye doctor when they go, what's better one or two and then Bernadette Peters. Fascinating. And then, okay. Tell me about them. I guess soon after that you began rehearsals.

[52:06] Paul Ford: We did. And was that with more of the material? I assume now you have the new song for Bernadette.

[52:11] Ben Rimalower: Yes. We got a new song, which was so hard. Stay with me. That opening is so hard. And I had to play it in five different keys or try to. Sondheim always said he doesn't exactly hit every right note, but he gives the singer the bed in which to work on. And I'll go back. He was talking about, you don't have to transpose every note. Just find it and then you can work on it later. So I always felt very relieved at that, that he gave all of us piano players a break.

[52:43] Paul Ford: But so stay with me. But the big number was second midnight. Oh my God. I loved it. I loved rehearsing it. It was so much fun involved everybody in the show. And it was toward the end of act one. And it had children will listen. It had da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da.

[53:05] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[53:06] Paul Ford: All that stuff that is not in the show.

[53:08] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[53:09] Paul Ford: But it's on that Streisand recording and it's.

[53:11] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[53:12] Paul Ford: And Mandy Patinkin sings it too.

[53:14] Ben Rimalower: Arthie Henshall.

[53:16] Paul Ford: Yeah. So it's like, so there was all this stuff. It was such a great number. We rehearsed it for an hour every day.

[53:23] Ben Rimalower: All right, that's going in my Into the Woods cut songs cabaret. It's going to be maybe their Magic and Second Midnight are the big gets.

[53:30] Paul Ford: Well, it's been recorded, right?

[53:31] Ben Rimalower: Second Midnight.

[53:32] Paul Ford: Wasn't it part of the video version of the, didn't they include it in an extras thing and they recorded some numbers?

[53:38] Ben Rimalower: I know the audio stuff that I've heard on that Into the Woods album. There's no video.

[53:43] Paul Ford: It seemed like one of the video releases had all this other stuff on it.

[53:47] Ben Rimalower: I better hunt that down.

[53:48] Paul Ford: I mean, maybe I just ignored it because I thought Second Midnight, I don't care about that song. Thinking it was just going to be like Two Midnight's Gone.

[53:56] Ben Rimalower: Well, this number, I've got it. I've got a piano recording of it for the press, which you're welcome to.

[54:02] Paul Ford: I want that, please.

[54:03] Ben Rimalower: I should be able to just email it to you.

[54:05] Paul Ford: Yeah, fabulous.

[54:06] Ben Rimalower: And we also did Hello, Little Girl. And I think that was it for that press thing.

[54:11] Paul Ford: You started rehearsals with the full, long Second Midnight.

[54:14] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[54:15] Paul Ford: So that's at the press, little preview you did for whatever TV channel it was at the time. And then during rehearsals, these changes started happening.

[54:22] Ben Rimalower: Yes, yes, they did.

[54:23] Paul Ford: Would you say most of the changes were in place by the time previews started?

[54:28] Ben Rimalower: Absolutely not.

[54:30] Paul Ford: Not by a long shot.

[54:32] Ben Rimalower: No.

[54:33] Paul Ford: And what are things that you remember being particularly 11th hour changes?

[54:38] Ben Rimalower: Okay.

[54:39] Paul Ford: Second Midnight lasted a dress rehearsal and it was out.

[54:43] Ben Rimalower: So we had a full orchestration. We did it on the set with an audience.

[54:46] Paul Ford: So we had to get, let's see, Stay With Me was there. Maybe even The Reprise, but I'm not sure.

[54:51] Ben Rimalower: I'm just not sure.

[54:52] Paul Ford: But Children Will Listen was inserted late in the process. I'm So Happy was cut in the first act, at the end of the first act. And it was out for a while. So then we all were gathered at the Martin Beck Theatre Lounge upstairs. And they said, we're going to reinstate I'm So Happy, but we're going to do it as the opening of act two. And I went up to Steve and said, I thought about that a couple of weeks ago.

[58:35] Paul Ford: Well, why didn't you say something? Well, I will next time. So that was just, oh, thank God we got that beautiful song back in. And it was just perfect because then the giant, you know, crushes them halfway. What else? Well, I think, you know, all the little bits with "Children Will Listen," you know, all of that was inserted, the "No One Is Alone" that the Baker's Wife sings. Maybe that was somewhere in there, you know, at this point, and then it went into, you know, "Children Will Listen" for Bernadette, and then the company had to sing it. I remember us figuring out little harmonies here and there. And all of that seemed to be during the previews. But the big thing was "Last Midnight," and "Boom Crunch."

We were doing "Boom Crunch," I believe, all the way into the previews. And then Sondheim brought in a tag for it so that it would sweep a little more so that she could disappear at the end of the number. So it was this "Last Midnight" thing. So we did three quarters "Boom Crunch," and one quarter "Last Midnight." Then he came in a few days later with more "Last Midnight." And we cut out more of "Boom Crunch" and went into "Last Midnight," finally brought in all of "Last Midnight." And there was a number to transpose, and to teach Bernadette. And that was in the middle of the previews. Yeah. And I imagine Bernadette, maybe even more than other people, would have been game for that, having gone through a rigorous process like that and come out, you know, successfully with "Sunday in the Park with George."

And a dozen musicals. Yeah, and that too, just having been doing this for decades. I mean. Yeah. No, I think she was ready probably for something that would really, you know, show her off, which it did. Which it did. I mean, it's interesting to me that he continued to fuss with that song. Because I, of course, love the original, you know, "Last Midnight" so much. And yet, there was a different version in the revival with Vanessa Williams and that Donna Murphy did in the Park. It's a different ending that I don't, I can't tell. I'd love to know your thoughts if you listen to it. That's recorded and the Donna one is on YouTube. But there, I don't know if it is better and I'm just too used to the original to accept it or if it actually is as unnecessary as I feel.

I'd have to listen to it. I have no idea. Yeah. But I do love that original "Last Midnight." Did you know when you heard that "Last Midnight," oh, this is a much better song. This is great. Yes. Yeah. I thought "Boom Crunch" was funny. Yeah. The first part of it was initially. But then it just kept in that da da da da da da da kept that that kind of singing song, that kind of thing for four minutes. And it didn't build. Yeah. And I've never quite understood. And I wonder about the audiences. Could they understand her singing? Mother, come get me. Yeah. Take me, you know, curse me, put me back to work. And she disappears out of the show. And it's like, what what just happened? Yeah. So that was never clear to me.

Yeah. Like, I think that's why the rewrite that version that Vanessa and Donna did. I think it's about Claire. It's longer about the mother. Oh, good. And but it so maybe it is better. And it's just that I know the verse first one too well to to to be able to accept it. But I will be curious when when you get a chance to know your thoughts on that. And I'm what else anything else you want to tell me about the run or the opening? Well, I think once we got "Last Midnight" in, put so happy at the beginning of Act One, got "Children Will Listen" in there. I think the dress rehearsal. The second one, maybe there was a second one. It went so long that the orchestra was dismissed. And I and I had to finish from "No One Is Alone" to the end.

But I don't remember there being "Children Will Listen." I just remember it just being "No One Is Alone." And then, yeah, yeah, yeah. And "One Midnight Gone" or the "Slotted Spoon." And then it went to that, that, that, that, that, that, that baby ending or something like that. You know, it's funny to hear that because I, of course, I love "Children Will Listen." But I've always felt that there's a sense of maybe "Into the Woods" has too many finales or too many eleven o'clock numbers or too many inspirational ballads in a row. Well, that was that that was something we always kind of thought about as every evening went into its third hour. Yeah. It's like we got so much more to go. I mean, no more "No One Is Alone" into "Children Will Listen."

That's a lot of, you know, inspirational ballads. And there's a lot of dry scenes in there. Good scenes, but dry Cinderella and the Prince. And then how do we kill the giant? Yeah. You know, and then after they killed the giant, there's another, you know. Wrap up scene, and then she comes on, sings "No One Is Alone," which leads into "Children Will Listen." Yeah. Which goes on. Yeah. And then we go into the final thing. So, yes, it was a lot. Yeah. It's funny because "Into the Woods" is the show that is so I mean, I think to anybody, certainly under 50, that's a musical theater fan. We grew up with that video of that original production with that original cast and and a video directed by James Lapine.

It's not, you know, it's it's not like the "Sun in the Park" video that was, you know, presented, you know, to a TV director. It's such an excellent capture of the show in its purest original form. And, you know, it's not only a gateway drug to Sondheim for so many people, but it was really a gateway to musical theater for many people. You know, other than sort of the hit at the time of "Les Mis" and "Phantom" and everything, I mean, really "Into the Woods" was it. And I think that it's, you know, there's really so many people that consider it their favorite Sondheim show. And it's it's funny going back to it and thinking about the ways that it is you know, I don't want to say flawed, but, you know, that it's not tight like "Gypsy," you know, I mean, it's not, you know, or even "Sweeney Todd."

I know you're not a huge "Sweeney Todd" fan, but but "Sweeney Todd," you know, is a very there's not three inspirational ballads in a row in "Sweeney Todd," you know. And although it's funny, I think part of what worked for me so much about the revival of "Into the Woods," the current one, is maybe because of the bare stage approach from encores. It seems like those final scenes, you know, there's there's no set move that has to happen. No, there's tree branches. It all just goes. Yeah. Here's another thing. Yeah. Somewhere in the previews of the Broadway, I think James Lapine actually said to me, I'm I think we should cut all the pass around numbers. Wow. "Giants," "I Know Things Now," "Giants in the Sky," and "On the Steps of the Palace."

And so just for the kids, pass around. I know they talk about that's the thing in "Hello, Dolly!" that the waiters. Yes, the runway. So you're talking about the sort of the little character solos that happen in front of the curtain, so to speak. Is that what that means? Pass around after their adventures. Yes. After their adventures. They're in one moments. Yes. So, OK, you know, three of the most popular songs in the show now. Funny enough, I didn't do it. Thank God. Yeah. So you were horrified at the time when you said that. No more cuts. No more cuts. Yeah. Great. OK, anything else you want to say about any of the things during the run or did you did you stay? I know you talk about when you made the decision to leave the "Into the Woods" pit as the it was only for the last few weeks because I had to do "Mandy" at the Helen Hayes.

Yeah. So you were there for essentially the whole run. Yes. And I was there for the filming, too. Yeah. Yes. And so I went back and sat in the pit on the last day and went to the party. Oh, there was so much that happened in that year and a half. Yeah. I mean, that's that's when Eartha Kitt and Suzanne Summers and all those people, Petula, they all came in. Yeah. And it just you know, there was a lot of cast changes. We had a lot of princes. Luann came for a little came back for a little bit. And and Ellen Foley did when she came on Broadway and was the witch. Were you gone already at that point? I think I might have been. So you don't remember if you went to see her? I heard her from from the pit, the last show.

And so was that was she still doing more of a rock and roll take as she had done before or had she conformed to new material? So I think she did it her own way. Yeah. Whatever it was. We had we had a tough time with the banker's wife. Yeah. Really had a hard time. Cynthia Sykes. I had a hard time. Yeah. I didn't think I thought Kay McClellan all along should have taken over. And but we had several people before her. And well, Kay McClellan got her due with the "City of Angels" getting to create. She did. And "Crazy for You." Or no, was she the replacement in "Crazy for You" of Michelle Pac? I forget who came. No. Well, she might have been. I don't know. Maybe. Yeah. I guess Michelle Pac was first, of course.

And do you remember any of the auditions for replacements besides the witch, the baker's wife auditions or anything like that? They just didn't have it just was the witch that they and then I think they went off and probably Joanna auditioned and auditioned and screened people. And then I would show up with somebody, OK, I have to teach you the baker's wife. You've never been on stage before. You've never sung live in front of an audience before. OK, let's get busy. We have not a minute to waste. And Dick Cavett, and I left it out of my book somehow or else it's earlier in the book and I forgot. Dick Cavett was brought in for a few weeks as the narrator only. And Ed Lindeck played the mysterious man who had been Cinderella's father and then comes apart.

So Dick Cavett. And I couldn't remember one line. So the stage manager was with him in the wings going, OK, you have to say then Cinderella did this. Just just read it off the book and you get out there and you go. So Cinderella grabbed up her golden foot gear and and then the Rapunzel tower kept breaking down. So the curtain would have to be brought down to fix it. And so that was his clue or cue to get out on stage in front of the curtain and entertain the audience. Ah. And I had Eric Stern on his last performance orchestrate a brief version of "Glitter and Be Gay," his theme song for his TV show. So when he came out, we went da da da da da da da da da da da da da da. And I think he heard it.

Well, at least Bernstein is in the Sondheim universe. I guess so. Yeah. Hilarious about Dick Cavett. I'm glad I know that. Well, Paul, this has been so amazing. It's really a gift to to get to talk to you and ask all these questions.

[1:12:35] Paul Ford: Well, thank you.

[1:12:44] Ben Rimalower: Well, thanks for having me. Oh, thank you for being here. Everybody, everybody should read your book. They will enjoy not just all the just dishy and and brilliant takes on the "Into the Woods" process, but "Sunday in the Park with George" and so many other great shows you've worked on. And you're it's wonderful to read such a a moving tribute to Mandy Patinkin, who you have a very close working relationship with and a lot of esteem for. And and it's just a great, a great and unique insider take on what it's like to be a musician, a piano player, a musical director and on the fly on the wall. Well, not but not just, you know, and through through a really diverse and long, widespanning career. So it's a it's a treat for anyone that enjoys this podcast. You'll certainly enjoy the book. And I've enjoyed talking to you, Paul.

[1:12:44] Ben Rimalower: Thank you for listening to "Giants in the Sky," how Sondheim and Lapine went into the woods on the Broadway podcast network. Look out for Episode 11 with Joanna Merlin and John Lyons, the original casting directors.