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[0:00] Ben Rimalower: Hey guys, it's Ben. Thank you so much, everybody, for listening and subscribing, and for all of your likes and comments on social media. I'm just popping in before we start the episode to ask you a favor. Please, please write us reviews on iTunes and wherever your podcasts are. Rate us five stars and um us. Like it's not just me. And um, please post about this on your Instagram feed or your Instagram story or your Twitter or your TikTok or your Facebook or your office Slack channel. Tell your coworkers. It would really help us just get over that tipping point. Us again. Yes, well, no one is alone. Thanks for listening. Broadway Podcast Network presents Giants in the Sky: How Sondheim and Lapine Went Into the Woods with me, Ben Rimalower. Today's guests, Joanna Merlin and John Lyons, the original casting directors.

[1:05] Ben Rimalower: Once upon a time, Joanna Merlin cast the original Broadway productions of Steven Sondheim's Into the Woods, Merrily We Roll Along, Sweeney Todd, Pacific Overtures, A Little Night Music, Follies and Company, as well as Evita, Candide, and On the Twentieth Century. She is a co-founder of the Alliance for Inclusion in the Arts, founder and president of the Michael Chekhov Association, and the author of Auditioning, an actor-friendly guide. As an actor, she originated the role of Tzeitel in Fiddler on the Roof, along with many other stage and screen credits.

[1:47] Ben Rimalower: John Lyons began his career as a casting director in theater, where he assembled shows as impactful as Sunday in the Park with George before moving on to a long and prolific career in film, casting numerous movies, including Raising Arizona, Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, It Could Happen to You, Striptease, and Tales of the City, as well as James Lapine's Impromptu and Life with Mikey. His major producing credits include Paul Thomas Anderson's Hard Eight and Boogie Nights, and the television version of Claudia Shearer's Blown Sideways Through Life.

[2:25] Joanna Merlin: You know, every one of Steve's shows is a different world. I mean, it is amazing when you think of how different all those shows are. And I think Into the Woods, it seems to me is almost the most different. Because I don't know, John, but you know, when you were casting it, you know, you really had to find actors who had a real sense of fun and heightening of characters, and in addition to the voices, of course, and the movement and um and the transition from you know the light to the dark. So they had to be able to do both of those things.

[3:12] John Lyons: And um well, I would always just think, what would Joanna do? Well, no, to an extent I did, only because you bloomed so large in my consciousness in a way when I moved to New York because I did move to New York towards in the musical theater, and then was very fortunate to land at Playwright's Horizons. Yeah, where Andre really embraced all of that work. But you know, for me, the shows that I really revered were all the Sondheim shows that you had cast you know in the 70s and onward you know and I just like I I don't think I even knew what a casting director was when I was listening to those LPs in my bedroom in Michigan. But when I started figuring it out I thought this is so incredible what Joanna Merlin did with these shows.

[4:13] Joanna Merlin: Well I can assure you when I started I had absolutely no idea what I was doing I did know what a casting director was because I was auditioning for casting most of my life and then when Hal had this idea of using me and I said I don't know anything and he said well well you'll learn you you know you've got Paul Geminiani and and of course Paul was just a great partner. Yeah um and we used to negotiate you know I said well this person is really a wonderful actor could you if the voice isn't right because he'd say oh well can't sing that would be his notes on the audition sheet can't sing. I said maybe you could work with them a little bit and and he did and then he'd find that somebody with a great voice he'd say and I'd say yeah but you know the act he said well why didn't you work with so that's what we did all those years and um and you know, we really became very close friends.

[5:17] John Lyons: I did you see his book?

[5:19] Joanna Merlin: Oh Gemini.

[5:21] John Lyons: Wonderful.

[5:22] Joanna Merlin: Yeah.

[5:22] Joanna Merlin: It's amazing his career. I mean, the number of shows that he amazing. I mean, it's so astonishing.

[5:31] John Lyons: It's like, but it's funny when you say that because I think every once in a while I felt the need to team up with Paul to tell Steve, I don't think that person can really sing the role. You know, because one of the things that I thought was so amazing and delightful about Steve is that he put the words first in so many ways. He put the acting first. Did I can remember bringing in so many great actors? They were terrified. I mean, they would come in. I can remember Christine Baranski, some of these people grabbing the piano, and you know, I would be like, Christine, step away from the piano.

[6:26] Joanna Merlin: And you could tell for them to come in and have to sing for Steve.

[6:32] John Lyons: Yeah.

[6:33] Joanna Merlin: But he was always so kind. He was so thoughtful. And so full so focused on the acting in a beautiful way.

[6:43] Ben Rimalower: So can I ask for both of you you had your histories as collaborators and fans of Sondheim, and uh when did the notion of this show, even I don't I don't know, maybe it didn't even have the title yet, the fairy tale Lapine collaboration after Sunday in the Park with George. When did that first come into your consciousness?

[7:05] John Lyons: Well, Joanna, you it was the first. I mean, I remember them talking about it every, you know, it was sort of being bandied about a little bit. It was, of course, you know, into the run of Sunday in the Park with George. And I think we were doing auditions for Sunday in the Park with George replacements, something that would have never occurred to me, never having done with a show before. It's like, oh my, you're gonna have to replace Bernadette Peters. That's not going to be easy.

[7:45] John Lyons: Um and I remember that Lapine mentioned it to me at some point, you know, during uh an audition day that we were doing for understudies or something like that. Not at the booth, but definitely not at Playwrights Horizons either. Maybe in you know, one of the spaces that had been rented for auditions for that day.

[8:07] Joanna Merlin: Um but there, you know, it wasn't so it was unconventional, I would say, in the sense that they really asked a lot of people who they knew to go to San Diego. You know, it wasn't sort of a long process of auditioning people. You know, I'm looking, I'm actually just I printed out the list of the original cast today because I was like, who was in that? And a lot of them are people who had done a million shows for Steve, like John Cunningham or George Coe or Merle Louise.

[8:48] John Lyons: Yeah, and some of them were people who had come right out of um Sunday in the Park, Barbara Brand's, duh, Chip Zien.

[8:59] Joanna Merlin: Bob Westenberg.

[9:01] John Lyons: Westenberg.

[9:03] John Lyons: And so there were different people who were who had come out of that show and then people who I associated with you, Joanna, you know, people that you had introduced to Steve over the years.

[9:16] Joanna Merlin: Right.

[9:17] John Lyons: Which are those people, John, that which are the ones you associated with, Joanna?

[9:21] John Lyons: Well, John Cunningham was in Company.

[9:25] Joanna Merlin: Company.

[9:26] John Lyons: Um Company, one of those records that I listen to so much that I know I think I still know all the lyrics to all the songs.

[9:34] Joanna Merlin: Um Merle Louise.

[9:36] John Lyons: Uh George Coe.

[9:40] John Lyons: was in Company and we need.

[9:42] Joanna Merlin: Yeah.

[9:42] John Lyons: Yeah.

[9:43] John Lyons: George was George Coe in the original cast of Company, that's what I thought.

[9:49] Joanna Merlin: Yeah.

[9:49] John Lyons: Um yeah.

[9:53] John Lyons: So but it was sort of a mixture. And then I think that there were a few people that we a few roles that we auditioned for.

[10:01] Joanna Merlin: Was that anything to do with the workshop? Was that was that partly used for trying out casting notions?

[10:09] John Lyons: Yes.

[10:09] Joanna Merlin: Yeah.

[10:10] John Lyons: Yeah.

[10:11] John Lyons: And there this is I had already I've already spoken with James Lapine, and he um couldn't really remember who was in which workshop or who had done a reading, whether the auditions were for Broadway or for San Diego.

[10:26] Joanna Merlin: Um so I was having a hard time even confirming with him. Like uh did Betty Buckley do both workshops pre-San Diego and post San Diego? Do you know that?

[10:39] John Lyons: I think she did pre-San Diego but I I don't remember if she did post San Diego and then uh I only worked on it up to a certain point and then I was launching a new business and had a new partner in that business and everything and we I don't know in one of those moments of real showbiz naivete we got a couple of offers and we're like we're gonna be so busy oh my god and so I just sort of thought I don't know if I can really if I have the bandwidth to devote to the show so it I it's something at a certain point very shortly after they came back from San Diego I think you you stepped in Joanna isn't that right?

[10:39] Joanna Merlin: I did I did yeah um so those workshops after San Diego I wasn't I'm not aware of.

[10:39] John Lyons: Yeah well we did we did um we replaced John Cunningham with Tom Aldridge yeah because we had been working in a play together and he's so wonderful he was so wonderful yeah um and of course Danielle Verland was in yeah um Sunday and I remember she she was very nervous about the her voice about the range of little red riding hood and so just said you know just tell the story yeah.

[12:16] Joanna Merlin: And she did that and and she found her voice.

[12:20] Joanna Merlin: She's so good.

[12:21] John Lyons: I know.

[12:23] Joanna Merlin: I must say the revival is wonderful.

[12:28] John Lyons: Have you seen it, John?

[12:29] Joanna Merlin: Yeah, I did too.

[12:31] John Lyons: I did too.

[12:32] Joanna Merlin: It's funny, you know, one of the things that really struck me when I saw it, and I said this to James, it's truly one of those shows that every time you see it in a different point in your life, it means something so different to you.

[12:51] John Lyons: Exactly.

[12:52] Joanna Merlin: And in a really emotional way, it connects with death, you know, family member. I mean, it just really reminded me how kind of alive it is.

[13:03] John Lyons: Well, I was really struck when I saw the revival of the relevance it has for what's happening today.

[13:11] Joanna Merlin: I mean, how many giants are there out there?

[13:15] John Lyons: Yeah, you know, and don't we wish there was a little bird who could tell us how to kill them?

[13:21] Joanna Merlin: Yeah, you know, and the whole sense of the importance of community and you know, and who's to blame. I mean, how did it begin? All those questions somehow seemed suddenly so alive, yeah, you know, and current and important.

[13:42] John Lyons: Um the environment a lot of the sort of environmental issues around it that I'd not even thought of the first time really also resonated with me now. Like gardens and taking care of a garden and not or not taking care of a garden or destroying a garden and all it was so it's so fascinating because I definitely I frequently go to shows now if I saw the original production I just can't ultimately love what I see but it's sort of like I know it's so hard to get somebody's voice out of your head you know or it happens to me all the time and I like I'm really not being fair.

[13:56] Joanna Merlin: Yeah, yeah, but the thing about that show really is I think to such a great extent like you said it's just like there's so many different things every time you see it's like oh no and also the women's issue I mean the relationship between the baker and his wife yeah and how that that really evolved you know where he was not he was sub she was totally subordinate then she became more of an equal I mean the women's issue my god.

[13:56] John Lyons: Yeah, I mean it it is it is interesting because I thought one of the things that impressed me so much about James's book that he was just startlingly honest about the problems he had with Sunday in the Park. Yeah called no punches and when he interviewed me for it he said, you know, just say anything you want and you know don't edit yourself whatever but I really didn't have anything unpleasant to say because for me it was I was so starstruck you know I couldn't believe I was in the room I couldn't believe I was watching it happen but then of course as the show went on at Playwrights Horizons you really are kind of like living over the shop in a way and so you know people did become aware of sort of like the actor's unhappiness and it was such a monumental task for Le Pine to take on to write the book and direct it and he really was feeling his way through the theater and he hadn't worked that much with actors and suddenly had some really demanding intelligent actors and he learned so much in such a short period of time.

[16:38] Joanna Merlin: So it seems like by the time he got to Into the Woods, he was so much more aware of the care and feeding of actors.

[16:47] John Lyons: Yeah, care and feeding. That's a great line.

[16:51] Joanna Merlin: Well, it was he didn't know how to do it originally. In terms of the ask of the actors, it you know, now we're so accustomed to the idea of these shows, these big musicals being developed in partnership with a non-profit institutional theater in lieu of the old school out-of-town tryout, you know, where the commercial producers are attached as the intention from the beginning. But it seems like that was still very much a new idea.

[17:21] John Lyons: Was it a hard sell to get them to go work for like a Lorte salary for however many months in San Diego at the time?

[17:33] Joanna Merlin: I mean, not no, not in my experience. I mean, I think, you know, there were certain people, i.e., like a Betty Buckley, who would say, I'd love to do the reading, but there's no way I can commit for that amount of time.

[17:48] John Lyons: But so sorry, John, just to interrupt you. So is that why Betty did the workshop, then did not do San Diego and then did the second workshop after San Diego?

[17:58] Joanna Merlin: You know, again, I I'm not really sure. You know, I would was her series still on?

[18:05] John Lyons: I don't know.

[18:06] Joanna Merlin: No, no. It wasn't. I don't know, but she could have been committed to something else. I just don't know.

[18:12] John Lyons: Yeah.

[18:13] Joanna Merlin: But I think when it was the lure of the possibility of working with Steve, people wanted to do it if they could.

[18:23] John Lyons: Exactly.

[18:25] Joanna Merlin: Yeah. You know, you know this, I'm sure, John, that Kim Crosby and Bob Westenberg got married.

[18:35] John Lyons: Yes.

[18:35] Joanna Merlin: So Cinderella and the Prince for life got married.

[18:39] John Lyons: Yeah.

[18:40] Joanna Merlin: Yeah. Just such a great story.

[18:42] John Lyons: Yeah.

[18:45] Joanna Merlin: I mean, another great love story of Into the Woods is, I mean, you know, a different kind of love, but Chip and Joanna. I mean, it's their performances are so memorialized. So I mean, I, you know, instead of people memorizing a cast album because of that American Playhouse broadcast, people have memorized their entire performances. I mean, every single line reading of Joanna Gleason's is like iconic.

[19:15] John Lyons: Um and I wonder what the pro I mean, what was it like putting her in that role and how did it how did anyone play it before her?

[19:29] Joanna Merlin: Wasn't she she wasn't the original banker's wife?

[19:33] John Lyons: She was.

[19:38] Joanna Merlin: Yeah. Had she done the very first reading at Playwrights?

[19:45] John Lyons: Oh god, you know, it's a horrible thing to lose one's mind. Nobody remembers.

[19:50] Joanna Merlin: Nobody long time ago. I think she must have.

[19:58] John Lyons: That's probably a question for Ira Weissman. If you want to dial him to the case, no, he needs to look at it. No, the storage space. None of us remember these things. I am gonna talk to Joanna Gleason. I think she'll remember when her first reading was, but she won't remember what happened before she came in, you know.

[20:15] Joanna Merlin: I mean I know she went to San Diego. She was part of the company in San Diego. She must have done she must have done one of the readings prior to it. I mean, I guess, or did she come in and audition?

[20:30] John Lyons: I can you know, I'm suddenly thinking like we did have auditions in the basement of one of the new theaters that was being built for the extension of theater row.

[20:42] Joanna Merlin: Oh but I don't remember her auditioning.

[20:48] John Lyons: But you know, these things are so slippery. Sometimes I do remember people auditioning for things and they're like, I never auditioned for that.

[20:56] Joanna Merlin: Yeah, I could have sworn I you saying blah blah blah. No.

[21:00] John Lyons: Um so I don't I don't think you know when they went to San Diego, obviously they there were no performance ghosts hovering over them.

[21:13] Joanna Merlin: Yes.

[21:15] John Lyons: Uh also I mean there's sort of a legend around Bernadette's um kind of 11th hour casting. Um whether it was a lunch with Sondheim right before rehearsal started for the Broadway production or a phone call or you know, these different versions of the story. But I what I want to know is how is it coming out of Sunday in the Park with George that she was never in consideration at all prior to that?

[21:44] Joanna Merlin: I don't I don't think she wasn't under consideration. I think she had something else to do, if I remember correctly.

[21:53] John Lyons: Chances are, chances are that's and um and what about like I mean uh I don't know if another question I think would be did Ellen Foley always wonder is Bernadette Peters going to come back when this comes to New York?

[22:12] Joanna Merlin: That's what I wondered at one point, sort of like it was such a mix of like the best of Steve and the best of Sunday in the Park. You know.

[22:25] John Lyons: Yeah.

[22:26] Joanna Merlin: Well, then then she was the final witch on Broadway, Ellen Foley. So it she got her turn, right?

[22:32] John Lyons: Yeah.

[22:33] Joanna Merlin: Well, Felicia Rashad took over from Bernadette Peters at first, right.

[22:37] John Lyons: Yeah, when Bernadette left.

[22:41] Joanna Merlin: Felicia, then Nancy Dusceau, and then Ellen.

[22:50] John Lyons: I think you're right. But again, I think Betsy Coslin in there somewhere.

[22:56] Joanna Merlin: What?

[22:57] John Lyons: And Betsy Jocelyn at one point.

[23:00] Joanna Merlin: Maybe if that was I don't know. You know, the IBDB doesn't give you the dates always. So I don't know if Betsy Jocelyn did one night, but it looks like she was one of the lineup. Or maybe she was a standby standard.

[23:13] John Lyons: I mean, I just how long did it run, Joanna? I mean, it ran a lot long. Sunday in the Park didn't run that long.

[23:19] Joanna Merlin: No. Into the Woods didn't. I've worked on the show for two and a half years.

[23:25] John Lyons: Yeah. We also did the tour.

[23:28] Joanna Merlin: Right. Yeah.

[23:29] John Lyons: Cleo Lane playing.

[23:31] Joanna Merlin: Yes.

[23:32] John Lyons: And Charlotte Ray playing Jack's mother, who was she was still wonderful. I mean, I don't know if anybody could be as good as Barbara Brynn, but but Charlotte Ray was pretty funny.

[23:43] Joanna Merlin: I'll bet she was.

[23:45] John Lyons: I bet. And funny, I feel like I was thinking about Cleo Lane the other day. She seems to be sort of forgotten. Like I had all of I had all of her records. I just thought John Dankworth and Cleo Lane. They were like the coolest jazz singers.

[24:06] Joanna Merlin: Well, I don't know. I mean, we're talking about the 80s, so who knows if she's still around or not?

[24:13] John Lyons: Um I mean, had Cleo been considered for Broadway, I know she had just done the Mystery of Edwin Drude at that time. Uh maybe she was not available. I I don't remember.

[24:28] Joanna Merlin: And um what about with Patty Lapone? I mean, she talks about how she wanted to play Cinderella and you know that she they didn't see her like that. Um, but uh did was it really just a matter of negotiations then for the witch that she didn't get the part?

[24:48] Joanna Merlin: Uh I don't know. I don't know. I mean, Patty, you know, my image of Patty is a Vita. Hard for me to think of her. I mean, then I and I uh I I kind of knew her work from having seen all the shows in Juilliard when she was in the first class with Kevin. Yeah. And um, so I went just because I was just didn't know, you know, where to how to look for actors, and um, and so I went to these various showcases and graduating and and plays of of the uh productions at the school, and I saw that first class several times, and then I saw her at uh Christmas party at Hal's House. She was there with Kevin, and um, and they had been on um, they had been with the acting company for like four years, you know.

I saw them do the robber bridegroom together, yes, in Ann Arbor, Michigan, when I was in college, yeah. They were and then it was in Broadway for a little bit, and it was clear even then, you know, that they were stars, and I didn't know nothing from nothing. I was, I think, like a senior at the University of Michigan, and they were showstoppers. Yeah, yeah, but it was it was very hard to find uh anyone who had that any young woman who had that range because it was this high chess voice. And um and at this party I was talking to her because I had known them from Juilliard. And I said, How how high does your voice go? And she said, Well, I'm not sure. I don't know. It's pretty high. Oh, why don't you come in and audition?

Um anyway, she was and that was that was also when she and Mandy sort of became such fast friends uh over the years. Um and then did a show together, which was great. Yes. Um well, because the the Patty version of the Into the Woods story is that she wanted to play Cinderella, she auditioned, they didn't see it, they offered her the witch, and then negotiations broke down. I mean, and I'm like what was she at what was the negotiation that was I mean if the part went to you know well I assume it was money, I don't know. Those are the things that casting directors are not always a part of. Ah yes.

[27:44] John Lyons: Well the the producers and the directors and the the native team. Yes. And what what about all the other I mean um people that um uh I mean for example like uh and James Lapine mentioned that he had been interested in like different rock and roll people for the for the part of the witch. Was that like a a thing that was was there a lot of availability check going on for Pat Benatar I mean that was there a lot of time spent in that kind of stuff uh yeah I mean I I remember Pat Benatar auditioning oh but I might be thinking of a Vita oh well that would be cool too I think I think it was a Vita so um it it's just it's difficult to remember everybody who auditioned for a voice of girls with you know um what in terms of the ones that actually had a a time with it I mean what what happened with Betty Buckley because I mean obviously Bernadette became so iconic in the role and I'm sure it was fashioned somewhat around all the things that she brought to it um but certainly Betty Buckley seems like she would have been an ideal choice for the role so how come that didn't work out this all this predates yeah this was not she wasn't in part of the you know situation for San Diego that I remember but you know what you're saying about Bernadette you know kind of establishing a uh a way of playing the witch um I think that you know when Felicia came in I mean she played it differently and I think I think John you might agree that you know you when you're looking for a replacement you look for someone who's not going to be an imitation for Oracle.

[29:48] Joanna Merlin: Right and who brings their own kind of uniqueness into the role and still being able to do what was what's required. And and of course at that time, you know, non-traditional casting was was not a normal existence at all. Yeah. It was, it was just about the it was the year after we had established the non-traditional casting project. And I think you were around then in the CSA. Yeah. We then we had this huge symposium where we demonstrated non-traditional casting with 56 actors in 18 scenes and and and it ran I mean the organization was functioning for 32 years. And the landscape now is really has changed thank Helms. It really has you know I feel like it took so long but it seems like now it's finally changed over the past five years or so.

Yes. But you know it was very controversial then. Yeah. And at these panels that we had at the symposium we had invited people from all over the country academia regional theaters and so on writers directors. And the questions were you know how can it be done? Are there enough actors of color that are trained and polished enough and what will the how will the audiences feel about it and how do the writers feel about you know uh changing the the casting uh what what we found though was that the writers did not want the casting to be different in the original production. That they were sort of okay about it, perhaps in revivals or tours or something, but they had a lot of questions about it. A lot of people had questions about it. It took a long time to really kind of open the minds of the industry.

[32:02] John Lyons: Yeah. Well, I remember people always using, which I thought made perfect sense, you know, the opera analogy. It's like nobody says what color is Aida in this production, or you know, how could Mimi be a black woman? I mean, it seemed like they got past it first. But there was, it was still, yeah, it was it was I remember being very controversial, and I remember some writers saying things like, well, that individual wouldn't have been speaking that language. And it's like, well, this is a production of Chekhov, and they're speaking English. Yeah. They're not speaking Russian. So I mean, all bets are off in a way. It's not really culturally, you just are used to seeing white people do it. And Hamlet is not always played by a Dane.

In fact, rarely is it is it played by a date. Actually, that was what Lee Lee Breuer, Lee Brewer, oh yeah. He he also was at the symposium, and he said um that that non-traditional casting is not about art and tradition, it's about economics and politics and religion and race and I think he was right so interesting that you should say that Joanna because it really is you know the sort of the downtown theater scene was way ahead of everybody else in this regard Richard Foreman Lee Breuer Charles Ludlum I mean they were way beyond conventional ideas of gender and color and sexuality remember I would always you know go down and go downtown and see all of those shows and they did feel you know they generally felt so fresh and so wild yeah I kind of because they weren't you know they didn't hunker down behind those ideas no there was a sort of artistic freedom that you didn't have on Broadway you know Broadway basically and and the audiences on Broadway were mostly white except for an August Wilson play once in a while so it was a huge a huge leap really over those years.

[34:48] Joanna Merlin: Was there any pushback when Felicia was casting into the woods no no I think James and Steve were were very supportive or in the press or in the community or anything like that. Um there was as I recall, I mean there was discussion about it, but um but I think it was um I I think that I I as far as I know I don't think that in the press they they were criticizing the casting. Um she was also a big star. Yes. She was it was Mrs. Huxtable. Yeah right in the middle of right I mean she was they were that was the biggest show for years and years and years. And you know I was wondering when I saw the revival I actually I've seen it twice. Yeah. Um I was wondering because the witch is black and both there's was a replacement of the original one and then anyway so I've seen two witches in these revivals and they're both black. Yeah. And I wondered if uh if the fact that Felicia had played it had something to do with that.

[36:12] John Lyons: Um interesting I wonder I I remember seeing um a production in Los Angeles when I was in high school with um Leslie Uggams as the witch also and I remember people talking about the fact that Felicia had done it I mean it was recent at that point on Broadway but I you know it was as if the ground had been broken or the door had been open.

[36:34] Joanna Merlin: Yeah yeah um it's keeping it into the woods a different kind of non traditional casting I know that one of the replacements in the original run as Jack was Jeff Blumencranz, who was um not a child and very tall. And I wonder if there was any kind of uh concept behind that. He was so wonderful. So funny. Well you know in a fairy tale really you can do anything. You can you know I think the Jack that is in this revival now is is older.

[37:14] Joanna Merlin: Yeah definitely it doesn't matter. It's you know uh that that's was kind of the fun of casting it also is that you could go to all kinds of different places um they didn't have to fit into the conventional way of thinking of a 15 year old child.

[37:35] John Lyons: Um what about when um was it that Dick Cavot came in as the narrator for a spell oh right yeah I never saw him I never saw him do it yeah yeah but he didn't he didn't play the mysterious man.

[37:55] Joanna Merlin: Right then I guess Edmund Lindeck went up to that role for that period. Well it was like Tom Aldridge went on vacation well you probably know more than I do but but originally Ed Lindick was playing Cinderella's father but it was a very small part yeah yeah and um he was yeah um I I don't know if he played the narrator but it would make sense if he did I I I my understanding was that for the when Tom Aldridge went on vacation or wherever he went that Dick Cavit was the replacement narrator but only the narrator and that Edmund Lindeck played for that period and whoever covered him was the Cinderella's father.

[38:49] John Lyons: I think you're right.

[38:50] Joanna Merlin: Exactly, exactly. Thank you. Thank you for refreshing on it all, reading up on it all.

[39:05] John Lyons: And I really felt it in this revival is that it became like the most produced high school musical for like 15 years. And when I went to see the revival this time, I thought, my God, everybody in this theater has been in this show.

[39:28] Joanna Merlin: They just felt like they knew the show backward and forward, and they were applauding things. I just thought they've all been in this show, or they're the parent of somebody who's been in this show.

[39:44] John Lyons: Yeah, I mean the the audiences as I say, I've seen it twice, and both times the audiences went crazy wild after every song.

[39:54] Joanna Merlin: Yeah.

[39:55] John Lyons: Well sometimes before the song. That was the thing that really struck me. It's like they're applauding, it's like it's like I don't know, Barbara Streisand is breaks into the first two bars of people and they're like, ah, they really knew the show forward and backward.

[40:17] Joanna Merlin: Or, you know, we're just very responsive. And that it it it just you know, everybody knows about fairy tales, and everybody knows people love fairy tales. Um, and just to see them act it out in this way with this wonderful music and uh yeah I no, it was a it was a treat. It was a treat to see it again, yeah.

[40:45] John Lyons: It is again, like I said, it's just one of those things that just was the things that grab you or make you reflect now as opposed to what they would have 35 years ago or a different point in your life are really it's built to last that show.

[41:02] Joanna Merlin: It is it is, and um I I think I think it could run for a long time if yeah, yeah.

[41:12] John Lyons: Were there any um well, speaking of it running a long time, uh if they were looking for stars to come in to keep the show going, are there any any fantasies that either of you ever had for this show that that never that haven't happened yet?

[41:30] Joanna Merlin: Dre dream Pat Benatars, you know, those kind of people, anybody that that was on your list that you you would still like to see take a crack?

[41:39] John Lyons: Well, I'd like to see Patty Rupone play the witch.

[41:42] Joanna Merlin: Yes, yeah.

[41:44] John Lyons: Yeah.

[41:46] Joanna Merlin: How did it come to be that you went into casting? You referenced that Hal was uh pushing you to do it. What what prompted that?

[41:56] Joanna Merlin: Well, he wrote he wrote I wrote this book on auditioning, and he sent wrote a forward and he talked about why why he hired me, and he said that he'd been seeing a lot of casting directors and he felt they didn't really like actors and he wanted somebody who loved actors and uh so you know why not an actress and he said and a Jewish mother so anyway I was um really a beginner I had you know and what I found was that and I'm sure you've you've had the same experience John that um that um a lot of really good actors don't audition well absolutely and that was what got me started in teaching actually and then eventually writing this book um I was trying to figure it out I mean I you know I had done my own auditions but I'd never really sort of figured out how to approach it because it's a totally different craft than acting totally different you don't have readers I mean you don't have an actor that you're working with that you haven't had any direction and uh you may not have seen the script you know you may not have gotten the script the night before um and and it it's hard it's it's hard not to be and then you have the nerves and the fears uh of you know not getting the part or not doing a good job and um and so it was a learning experience for me.

[43:49] John Lyons: Uh and and so um that that really was the beginning of my teaching, which is what I then have been doing all these years.

[44:01] Ben Rimalower: Um I never really knew that, Joanna. I I mean I had sort of a similar experience in that I was, you know, working at Playwrights Horizons and stage managing and doing things and uh they got this grant and suddenly there were some jobs to be you know passed around and Andre asked me if I wanted to be the casting director.

[44:25] John Lyons: And I was like, I have no idea what that is really.

[44:29] Ben Rimalower: He was like, oh, you'll learn, don't worry. And it was I just remember so clearly there was the phone and the playwright's number was 564 1235. Then there was a rollover line, 1236, and we gave out the one two three seven number to actors.

[44:49] John Lyons: So Andre would just say if one two three seven answers it, just pick it up and say casting. And I just thought, I am really gonna screw this up so badly. But you know, everybody was everybody was sort of the same age, and you know, it was but Andre also I and I think because well it's his inclination and his personality, but also because it was an artist-driven theater, a writer's theater, and maybe because it's my personality and inclination, it's like we just went out of our way to be incredibly warm and gracious to everybody who auditioned, and it's interesting that you should say that because many casting directors weren't.

[45:39] Joanna Merlin: Oh, I know. I think they're better now. I think it's kind of more professionalized now, but you would have seen people I saw people other casting directors eat during auditions or have a dog in the room with them or it was just I think it's gotta be more professional than it was but people could be horrible.

[46:05] John Lyons: Well you know these these days uh television has sort of you know taken over most of the casting yeah I mean in in the eighties you know so yeah we are you know we hardly there were hardly any television shows I mean comparatively anyway and and they have to work so fast and sometimes they don't get this this the scripts until you know a couple of days before and they make quick quick calls and so on and and they're it's very stressful um and not not so much with film or theater but in television they there's so much work and and um and so it's hard for the casting directors like to be patient but but maybe some of them don't really like actors.

[47:07] Joanna Merlin: Maybe I was right I mean one of the other things that you know again I'm not doing it anymore but which I hear from my casting friends it just astonishes me that more often than not now the directors never meet the actors. They tape, they show them the tape, they pick the tape. I mean, this is so inconceivable to me as somebody started in New York and has had my career here, really. That so much of it was like the moment between the actor and the director coming into the room, leaving the room, blah blah blah blah blah blah. And now that just doesn't even exist anymore.

[47:47] John Lyons: No, the self tape has changed everything.

[47:50] Joanna Merlin: Wow. Incredible. Well, I'm glad that into the woods was cast the old fashioned way. That probably explains some of the uh really, really um just human performances that we got.

[48:06] John Lyons: Yeah.

[48:08] Ben Rimalower: Um and uh I'm I'm so grateful to you both for for sharing this uh experience with me. I'm really I'm so fascinating to talk to you, and I'm so grateful for this and for for the work that you did on this show.

[48:24] Joanna Merlin: It was fun.

[48:25] John Lyons: It was such a pleasure, yeah.

[48:26] Joanna Merlin: Yeah, it's lovely to see you, John. And yeah, Joanna, I'm I'm gonna email you after this. We're gonna you you put us back together, we're gonna have a copy of the bookwind.

[48:36] John Lyons: Yeah, glad to hear that.

[48:37] Ben Rimalower: Well, thank you both. Have a wonderful day, and uh you so much. Thank you for loving the show so much.

[48:44] Joanna Merlin: Oh, listen, I'm just one of millions, but I will uh, but it's it's you know, it's fantastic. You know, these things they don't always live on and on, you know, even some of the great ones don't.

[48:57] John Lyons: Yeah.

[48:58] Ben Rimalower: Well, into the woods shall.

[49:04] Ben Rimalower: Thank you for listening to Giants in the Sky: How Sondheim and Le Pine went Into the woods on the Broadway podcast network. Look out for episode 12 with Jeff Blumencranz, Rapunzel's Prince in the Pre-Broadway Workshop!