This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Ben Rimalower: Broadway Podcast Network presents Giants in the Sky, How Sondheim and Lapine Went Into the Woods, with me, Ben Rimalower. Today's guests, Kim Crosby and Robert Westenberg, the original Cinderella and her Prince slash Wolf.

[0:16] Kim Crosby: Once upon a time. I originated the role of Cinderella in both the Old Globe and Martin Beck Theater productions of Into the Woods. I also played Sarah Brown in the Jerry Zaks revival of Guys and Dolls and Mrs. Darling in the national tour of Peter Pan with Kathy Rigby, as well as performing in the original Broadway cast of Jerry's Girls and numerous productions around the country.

[0:45] Robert Westenberg: Kim's real-life husband, I created the roles of Cinderella's Prince and the Wolf in the original Broadway production of Into the Woods, as well as the roles of the Soldier and Alex in the original Broadway production of Sunday in the Park with George, in addition to originating principal roles in the Secret Garden and major revivals of 1776, Company, Abe Lincoln in Illinois, and Zorba, along with a run as Javert in Les Miserables and multiple regional roles.

[1:14] Kim Crosby: Don't hold your breath about saying anything fast.

[1:20] Robert Westenberg: I know you will.

[1:25] Kim Crosby: Yes. So, well, you were saying as teachers that it's, are you both teachers? I'm sorry.

[1:30] Robert Westenberg: I am not.

[1:32] Kim Crosby: No, Robert's not.

[1:33] Robert Westenberg: But you hear about it, I'm sure.

[1:36] Kim Crosby: I do, I do. And it's, I mean, because it was filmed by PBS and preserved, I mean, that was the biggest, I mean, we've both done so many shows, but because it was, you know, available to them, it's available to consequent generations. It's been a huge boon for me in terms of recruitment, in terms of getting, you know, really good students and all that stuff. So, yeah, it's been terrific.

[2:00] Robert Westenberg: I bet. I mean, it's, I think about it so much. There's so many Broadway shows that people cherish where they have the cast recording memorized, but this, people literally know your entire performances, all the book scenes. I mean, those, it's like, you know, it's like a favorite movie. And because I compare it, James Lapine and I talked about this, compared to Sunday in the Park with George, where your production was filmed by a TV director who captured a live performance or a couple of whatever it was. But this is like a James Lapine film. And it's such an exquisite rendering of that work.

[2:41] Kim Crosby: I mean, it's really, it's a huge shadow. And it's so, I think about it watching the revival that they, you know, they're doing, everyone in the audience knows how you are.

[2:53] Robert Westenberg: Yeah.

[2:54] Kim Crosby: Yeah. And speaking of the film and the PBS recording, I mean, James Lapine was in the truck the entire time and very much had a hand in how things were filmed and especially the camera coverage and that sort of thing. It was really fascinating as a cast member and I, cause I had never been a part of something like that before, but just to see the whole production come together. And it was, it was wonderfully odd to film it and then do closeups, you know, coverage during the days, but it was, it was really interesting, you know, from an audience perspective to seeing the original cast back together by that point, Bernadette had left the show and-

[3:32] Robert Westenberg: You had left the show.

[3:33] Kim Crosby: Well, no, I mean, I had not.

[3:34] Robert Westenberg: No, no, but I mean, when we shot it?

[3:37] Kim Crosby: Yeah, when we filmed for PBS.

[3:39] Robert Westenberg: Yeah.

[3:40] Kim Crosby: Oh, you were, okay.

[3:42] Robert Westenberg: Honey.

[3:43] Kim Crosby: The time, I thought it was past the year mark.

[3:48] Robert Westenberg: It was, but I was there.

[3:49] Kim Crosby: Well, anyway, we'll talk later about that.

[3:51] Robert Westenberg: I'd love to hear that. I mean, that's something else I've learned in this process is that because there's all these sort of gala, Sondheim events over the years that, you know, there's so many of them, the birthday concerts and the celebration at Carnegie Hall and the Scrabble letters from the seventies. And it's, this Into the Woods video has that kind of like rockstar energy. And I never quite understood that people had left and this was so long into the run and that it was really a sort of, and that there had to be rehearsals for returning cast members. It was a year later.

[4:25] Kim Crosby: Well, you know, just depending on what actor stepped into the various roles, of course it starts to gel. It's odd at first, but, you know, but you develop a rhythm and unique. I mean, an entirely unique experience with the new actors too. So when Joanna and Bernadette particularly had come back into the show, it was, and of course there being so many fans during that week of filming, it was like a rock concert, you know, and Bernadette could blink an eye and it would bring the house down for a minute. Something like that. So it was, so it was strange. It was wonderful, but, you know, but strange in that, you know, that the dynamic, you know, had reverted or changed at least.

[5:06] Robert Westenberg: Drastically.

[5:07] Kim Crosby: Yeah. I mean, the whole rhythm of the show changed and lines were getting laughs that never got laughs and lines that usually got laughs did not get laughs, right? So the whole push and pull with the audience was completely, completely changed.

[5:20] Robert Westenberg: Do you remember any examples of any of that?

[5:23] Kim Crosby: Oh gosh. I've not, not specifically. It's been, it's been so long, my goodness. But, but-

[5:29] Robert Westenberg: We just learned you had to pause for it.

[5:31] Kim Crosby: Just hold your breath and wait, wait and see. Everybody out there was a diehard fan. And I mean, what happened was that oftentimes lines would get laughs that would lead up to a capping moment, like where the joke actually was. And, and, and it would steal the joke, right? Because all the air would be taken out by the, by the preceding laughs. So it was, and then you get to the last, you know, your normal laugh line and it was, then they were rock solid. I mean, they were laid in. It was been years, right? Yeah. And they were gone, gone.

[6:04] Robert Westenberg: Because, because-

[6:05] Kim Crosby: Hijacked by the stars.

[6:06] Robert Westenberg: Exactly, exactly. So, so that happened and then you just had to get used to that and really play. I mean, it really taught you to play the scene and not play the laugh.

[6:15] Kim Crosby: Yeah, that's interesting. Play the scene, stay with your partner and do all that, all that good stuff.

[6:19] Robert Westenberg: Yeah. And even as weird as it was, it was glorious to have everybody back together. It was fun.

[6:24] Kim Crosby: Yeah. And, and again, thank goodness it was preserved.

[6:27] Robert Westenberg: Yeah.

[6:28] Kim Crosby: Yeah. It really has just stayed on people's minds and it seems it's very often that someone will say, you know, I just, we were just watching that at Christmas time.

[6:34] Robert Westenberg: Yeah.

[6:35] Kim Crosby: The DVD and, and I'm proud of the, so proud of the recent revival too.

[6:42] Robert Westenberg: We've not seen it.

[6:43] Kim Crosby: It's, it's just wonderful. And it's had such a, a beautiful, you know, respectful revival. And we'll continue. So this is, this is the legacy, but let's go back. I'd love to hear about your beginnings with the show. I think Kim, you, you were first involved with it because of the Old Globe was when you first started, right now.

[7:03] Robert Westenberg: Cause Bob, you had even, you've been in Sunday in the Park, but you didn't come into Into the Woods until later in the process.

[7:08] Robert Westenberg: I didn't come in until the, well, it's a little bit confusing. I didn't come in until the pre-Broadway workshop.

[7:14] Kim Crosby: Yes.

[7:15] Robert Westenberg: That was during the summer. Post the Old Globe, yeah. But I, yeah, post, so I didn't have anything to do with the development of it. And briefly too, because he was playing John Proctor in The Crucible down at Arena Stage at the time and was not able to finish up.

[7:26] Kim Crosby: Yeah, it was, it conflicted with the Wednesday.

[7:29] Robert Westenberg: So I, they, I told them about it, about the conflict and they said, oh, you'll be fine. And then, then the first week of rehearsal, when I was up there, I told them the preceding Tuesday, I said, you know, I'm not going to be here tomorrow because I have a matinee. And they said, no, you can't do that. And I said, yeah, I can. And I got to go. And they said, well, this is not going to work out. So I said, okay. So they, they had to recast it. And for the, for the, for the workshop, just a temporary recasting for the workshop. And then I went back. And so I didn't do the workshop as well. I did two days and left.

[8:03] Kim Crosby: Okay. This is absolutely fast. I guess we're not starting with you, Kim. So,

[8:09] Robert Westenberg: Go ahead, I'll be back in a minute.

[8:12] Kim Crosby: Nobody remembers anything. I mean, like, this is so incredible. The level of detail you're giving me. James Lapine didn't even remember that there had been-

[8:20] Robert Westenberg: Oh, James doesn't remember anything.

[8:21] Kim Crosby: Differentiating the workshop from the reading. James is terrible. I had, I did, I did an interview with him about a year ago about Sunday and I started telling him stuff. He went, what?

[8:31] Robert Westenberg: Yeah.

[8:32] Kim Crosby: It was like, James, you were there, buddy. You were there. So.

[8:36] Robert Westenberg: I mean, I remember that Kim had not left the show before.

[8:40] Kim Crosby: His wonderful book inspired this podcast because he had those conversations, but I guess he needed those conversations to get the story out. And, but I mean, when I talked to him, we were talking about Ellen Foley in San Diego and I said, well, and then she got to close the show on Broadway. And he said, oh, she never did it on Broadway.

[8:56] Robert Westenberg: No.

[9:00] Kim Crosby: But so, okay. I'm very grateful that you both have strong memories. So.

[9:04] Robert Westenberg: 35 plus years now.

[9:06] Kim Crosby: Yes, of course. I mean, I don't remember what I had for dinner last night.

[9:10] Robert Westenberg: Yeah.

[9:11] Kim Crosby: But, but I'm much more interested in what you all did 35 years ago than I am in what I had for dinner last night. So, cause I, I had only, only in doing this podcast, did I even become aware that Burke Moses was ever involved in this at all.

[9:24] Robert Westenberg: That's why he was in it.

[9:27] Kim Crosby: Because I left, I had to leave the workshop.

[9:31] Robert Westenberg: Gotcha.

[9:32] Kim Crosby: Okay. So you, you, okay. So you were cast after San Diego for the workshop and then.

[9:39] Robert Westenberg: I was cast for the Broadway run.

[9:41] Kim Crosby: Was that one contract? Like the workshop was just the prep for it?

[9:46] Robert Westenberg: Yes.

[9:47] Kim Crosby: That's exactly right.

[9:48] Robert Westenberg: And that was a separate contract, but it was included, it was, it was a package deal.

[9:51] Kim Crosby: Yeah.

[9:52] Robert Westenberg: We're gonna do the Broadway show, but we need you for the, for the workshop beforehand.

[9:55] Kim Crosby: Yeah.

[9:56] Robert Westenberg: Got it. Okay. So then, so you were cast, but then they had to let you out for the remainder of the workshop because they weren't able to work with your Wednesday matinees in The Crucible or whatever else was in the way of rehearsals. But so during Sunday, like when they were doing these like readings at Playwrights Horizons and Into the Woods and stuff, were you hearing about that going like, oh yeah, interesting, what's going on?

[10:23] Robert Westenberg: I, I, I was always aware of Steve's projects, do you know, especially Steve and Lapine, right? But, but I, no, I, I didn't, I didn't think about it until the auditions came up. So they, they did that, they went to San Diego and then when they got back from San Diego, they were having auditions and that's when you-

[10:46] Kim Crosby: Yes.

[10:47] Robert Westenberg: Yeah. So there were some people from the San Diego production workshop that they were carrying over to the Broadway.

[10:54] Kim Crosby: Yeah.

[10:55] Robert Westenberg: There were roles that they were not.

[10:57] Kim Crosby: Yeah.

[10:57] Robert Westenberg: So the, my particular role was being recast, reconsidered. So that's-

[11:01] Kim Crosby: Right, because he had not been, Ken Marshall as the Cinderella's Prince did not play the wolf in San Diego.

[11:09] Robert Westenberg: That was-

[11:10] Kim Crosby: He did not, no, he did not.

[11:11] Robert Westenberg: John-

[11:12] Kim Crosby: John Cunningham.

[11:13] Robert Westenberg: Yeah.

[11:14] Kim Crosby: Yeah.

[11:15] Robert Westenberg: Yeah. That was wild, that was wild. So, so is Joanna Gleeson, does she have the longest history with it? Because she was part of the-

[11:22] Kim Crosby: Well-

[11:22] Robert Westenberg: Part of the-

[11:23] Kim Crosby: Yeah, she did that workshop.

[11:25] Robert Westenberg: So, but Danielle Furland, I think goes back to the very first reading and Chip was in the first reading, but as one of the princes and then not in-

[11:33] Kim Crosby: Yep.

[11:34] Robert Westenberg: And apparently Lapine was not happy with the performance. Although also James has no memory that Chip was in that incarnation.

[11:42] Kim Crosby: We could really tinker with history here.

[11:44] Robert Westenberg: Oh, wait a minute. Now, I did not know that Chip read for one of the princes. Now, next time I see him, that's gonna be a part of our conversation.

[11:53] Kim Crosby: Oh, he, and by the way, he remembers himself being brilliant and was-

[11:56] Robert Westenberg: I'm sure he does, I'm sure he does.

[11:59] Kim Crosby: But I was at Yale last week at the James Lapine archives, trying to find, you know, details on that, but there was nothing. But, I'm not giving up.

[12:10] Robert Westenberg: You're a real historian.

[12:12] Kim Crosby: I mean, it's, I, like the deeper I go, the more questions I have. So, okay, well, we'll go, we'll go back to Kim. So you had been in Jerry's Girls on Broadway.

[12:22] Robert Westenberg: Is that right?

[12:23] Kim Crosby: That's right. And what, you just got an audition from your agent to do this new Sondheim musical in San Diego?

[12:29] Robert Westenberg: Yeah, I, I, yes. I mean, I was of course auditioning with the rest of the, you know, the crop of potentials. Had done a production of A Little Light Music and our casting director, casting director-

[12:55] Kim Crosby: Because you were Anne, I assume.

[13:02] Robert Westenberg: Yes.

[13:05] Kim Crosby: Oh, I love that. I mean, uh, what a great, what a great audition for, uh, Into the Woods to be. You know, it would have been the best role, obviously, for, you know, for me to be considered for this eventually. So it was just a, so I think I was just plucked from obscurity because of that production. I mean, and because Joanna had seen it, that I think that's one reason why I was even brought in to be considered for it.

[13:26] Ben Rimalower: And I guess a question I've had, like, because I know this was now, now it's so common. I mean, so many Broadway shows have these, like, regional non-profit, um, pre-productions where the commercial producers are very involved. And it's, it's really like an out-of-town tryout, except that it's in an institutional theater. Was that, did you have that aware? Were you thinking this is a pre-Broadway show and I'm here to, like, you know, develop it like that?

[13:53] Kim Crosby: Oh, from my perspective?

[13:55] Robert Westenberg: Yeah, in San Diego.

[13:56] Kim Crosby: Well, you know, I, I just, uh, I mean, I was still a little bit green. I mean, I had never sung any, except for Little Night Music, done any Sondheim before. I mean, I, as far as I knew, I was just auditioning for the San Diego production. And it was, of course, during the, um, during the run that, uh, you know, that I, I was really aware of the magnitude of all of it. And, and, uh, it's just one of those things that, um, well, opportunity of a lifetime, obviously. And, and so the weight of it starts to, starts to, to wear after a while. And it was, uh, it was, uh, we knew that something special was going on anyhow and, uh.

[14:35] Ben Rimalower: And it's Sondheim, right? I mean, it's Stephen Sondheim. So you have a pretty good clue that that song's going to happen with it, right?

[14:41] Kim Crosby: I would think, I mean, it's surprising to me. I'm one of, I love James Love Hines' book, uh, about Sunday in the Park with George so much, but it was surprising to me how many actors in the moment of the, the stress of the rewrites and all that, and not coming together, weren't just saying, Stephen, James are going to get that. I have faith that like they were just, you know, and I understand when you, I guess you're going out on stage every night, how much faith can you have? But, but I, I would have thought that, you know, at that point, they would just believe in the Sondheim, you know, magic more. Um, but, uh, but I mean, so, but I know you didn't have No One Is Alone when you started, uh, performances in San Diego.

[15:26] Robert Westenberg: We did not, no. And I had a different solo. Um, it was titled Back to the Palace, was the first one, which I really loved. I really loved it. I remember the last time we-

[15:36] Kim Crosby: I love that, I love that version.

[15:38] Robert Westenberg: I remember the last day I performed it in rehearsal. They just said, well, let's just sing it again for old time's sake. Posterity singing it before, before they introduced the new one. It took me a while to get used to it on the steps of the palace in terms of, you know, favorably comparing it to the old one. And, you know, obviously for Stephen, for James, especially for Stephen, it said, you know, it said something more that expressed more, you know, her, you know, her inner monologue or whatever, you know, and, and obviously, you know, you can trust implicitly what, what he, you know, what he ends up with, but yeah, it was a lovely song. And, you know, there, there wasn't anything that wasn't really wonderful that was a part of the show that didn't wind up, that didn't wind up. I'll never forget going-

[16:17] Ben Rimalower: Do you still play music to that?

[16:18] Robert Westenberg: Huh? Yeah.

[16:19] Kim Crosby: You do?

[16:19] Robert Westenberg: Yeah.

[16:20] Kim Crosby: Okay.

[16:20] Robert Westenberg: Yeah. We got to keep the old, the handwritten, the handwritten score.

[16:23] Kim Crosby: Wow.

[16:24] Robert Westenberg: I know, it was kind of fun. When we had, when we had an Into the Woods reunion out at, at, in Orange County.

[16:30] Kim Crosby: Yes, at La Cosa Mesa was that?

[16:32] Robert Westenberg: Yeah.

[16:33] Kim Crosby: Like, yeah, yeah.

[16:34] Robert Westenberg: We mailed a bunch, of course, everybody was invited to send any memorabilia that they had. And of course that, that was, that was part of what we offered in our package of things, but you know, it's, they just don't do it that way anymore, obviously.

[16:47] Ben Rimalower: Did that song come in, when did that go out and On the Steps of the Palace come in?

[16:53] Robert Westenberg: About the second, third week of rehearsal in New York.

[16:56] Ben Rimalower: In, oh, for, for the Broadway production?

[16:58] Robert Westenberg: Yeah.

[16:59] Ben Rimalower: Wow. And so you sang that song a lot. It's funny how much, what you've heard first, because having obviously known On the Steps of the Palace long before I ever heard Back to the Palace, to me, On the Steps of the Palace is so much better, but I, I wonder if I would just, you know, not feel that way if I, if I knew that one.

[17:18] Kim Crosby: Well, there's something, it was a lovely, it was a little more lyrical and, you know, and it was easier to sing, you know, but getting back to the San Diego production, and since No One Is Alone was not in initially, I'll just never forget the day that we all went into the rehearsal studio and Steve sat down at the piano and played No One Is Alone before we put it into the show that night or whatever, you know, it was, it was insane, but that was a magical, that was a magical moment.

[17:48] Robert Westenberg: I mean, you must've felt at that moment, even if this show is a disaster and, or doesn't even go to Broadway, you would always have this No One Is Alone, I mean, that, you know, was your song and is just as good as any song ever was.

[18:04] Kim Crosby: Yeah, I know, I know. No, it's, it's, yeah, you can't quite put it into words what that is, but I'm so very, very proud.

[18:11] Ben Rimalower: I'm also curious, you know, there's these demo tracks, because I, that were recorded, I think you did one of Back to the Palace, and then there's like Second Midnight and some of the other numbers, and there's like,

[18:23] Robert Westenberg: George Lee Andrews.

[18:24] Kim Crosby: Right. Yeah, I think Liz Calloway was supposed to have sung Back to the Palace for that, but she was ill. So, so, and I think, I think Steve had not wanted any of the original, anybody who originated those roles to sing on this particular, what do they call it? It was a CD-ROM of some kind. I think that's what you're talking to.

[18:45] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, so was that recorded after the fact?

[18:49] Robert Westenberg: Yes.

[18:50] Ben Rimalower: Oh, wow. See, that, I've never had an explanation for those tracks.

[18:56] Robert Westenberg: Yeah, that was a, it was some kind of an educational compilation of songs that didn't make it into the show, or that weren't part of the show, and then, you know, were not on the scrapheap, I guess, but interesting.

[19:09] Kim Crosby: Okay, that's very helpful. Thank you. So, okay.

[19:13] Robert Westenberg: If I'm remembering, I might be pulling a James Lapine here. I think that's what it is.

[19:18] Kim Crosby: So, it sounds solid.

[19:19] Robert Westenberg: I wouldn't believe anything she says.

[19:23] Kim Crosby: Me neither. We've had our grandbaby visiting. We're all fatigued.

[19:26] Ben Rimalower: So, wow. Well, that's great. You don't look like grandparents. Congratulations.

[19:32] Kim Crosby: So, okay. San Diego, was that your first, well, obviously, was that your first time developing a new musical, I guess, is what I want to know.

[19:42] Robert Westenberg: Yes, yes. Yeah, that first and only time, you know.

[19:46] Kim Crosby: Wow.

[19:47] Robert Westenberg: And I've been a part of readings. I've done lots and lots of readings, backers auditions, things like that. But as far as being a part of a, yes, the creative beginning of a musical to fruition, yes, that's the first time I had. And of course, you were a part. How far back does your history with San Diego?

[20:08] Kim Crosby: No, it was the same thing with Sunday, basically, as it was with Into the Woods. I was not a part of any of the workshops for that. And I just auditioned for the Broadway show and got that.

[20:20] Robert Westenberg: You did not do it at Playwrights Horizons. Is that right?

[20:22] Kim Crosby: No.

[20:23] Robert Westenberg: Wow. They just, when they're, they don't, they don't bother you with the-

[20:28] Kim Crosby: I let them work out the kinks, and then I come in when I-

[20:32] Robert Westenberg: Did you have to go for 10 hours?

[20:35] Kim Crosby: I'm teasing, I'm teasing.

[20:38] Ben Rimalower: So, okay, well, so you, the run is, how soon, either during or after the run in San Diego, did you know the timing of the Broadway production and the workshop? And did you have to audition again? How did that work, Kim?

[20:55] Kim Crosby: No, I did not have to audition again. And of course, and after, when we were close to closing the San Diego production, of course, the word was out that there were going to be a lot of recasts, you know, recasting in the production. So everybody was a little feared that they might not transfer, although most of the cast did, you know, wind up in the cast eventually. But yes, well, and Rocco Landesman, of course, was, and folks from Jujampson, his other partners, were a part of it. I just remember one of the first introductions, well, how he introduced himself, he said, I'm a big-ass Broadway producer as well.

[21:36] Robert Westenberg: I am.

[21:37] Kim Crosby: Rocco?

[21:37] Robert Westenberg: Yeah, yeah. He was funny.

[21:40] Kim Crosby: I guess I have to say it. I mean, Lauren Mitchell, I asked her, I guess the other showmans, besides you guys, although later they didn't get together during the show, but she, as I've heard about you, not to be, I'll wait for you to tell me your own story, but she said that she had not even met Michael David at the time. She said, oh, he was probably around, but we didn't pay attention to the producer people.

[22:08] Robert Westenberg: Well, it's kind of true, and they sort of stay out of the way.

[22:11] Kim Crosby: We know they make everything happen eventually.

[22:13] Robert Westenberg: Right, right. They're the, yeah, the puppeteers behind the curtain, yeah.

[22:16] Ben Rimalower: So what you were saying about, were we aware, or was I aware at the time what was happening? It was when the producers started coming in that you got a sense that it really had legs and that it was going in. Because when you're in the middle of it and you're working out all the kinks, and there were lots and lots of kinks and lots and lots of rewrites, and you think, well, this is just never going to come together. There was a point at which, when so many things had been tinkered with and changed, and then it all eventually came back to very close to what it was originally, and you think, well, we've just taken this detour for no reason. That happened with Company as well, when we did the revival of Company. George Firth came on, and we did a ton of rewrites, and they were not strong, and we went right back to the original script. But yeah, that happened in the woods.

[23:08] Kim Crosby: But you got to try it. I mean, they, of course, have the luxury of trying it, and hopefully a flexible cast and the luxury of time.

[23:12] Robert Westenberg: And they didn't have the traditional out-of-town tryout, really, right? They were doing their out-of-town tryout during Broadway previews, and the opening was delayed for a couple of weeks, three or four weeks. Once we went into preview, I think we previewed just for six to seven weeks before we opened, which was unheard of. And finally, the Times said, we're coming in. You better be ready, because we're coming in. And there was one point where Kim mentioned tinkering. I came in, and they said, the wolf song is out. Here's your script. Meet with Danny and James on the stage, and we're going to restage it. And it's a book scene now.

[24:01] Kim Crosby: Whoa.

[24:02] Robert Westenberg: Yeah.

[24:02] Kim Crosby: During Broadway previews.

[24:04] Robert Westenberg: Yeah.

[24:05] Kim Crosby: Whoa.

[24:06] Robert Westenberg: Just before the show.

[24:07] Kim Crosby: When I got there, yeah, they said, yes, half hour. And I went, okay.

[24:15] Ben Rimalower: Is that even legal?

[24:16] Robert Westenberg: I don't know. So anyway, maybe not now, because Equity has refined its rules. But back then, it was just, okay. And you kind of went, after working with them for a while, you just got used to being bumped around a lot, so you just got really flexible.

[24:33] Kim Crosby: It was stressful.

[24:35] Robert Westenberg: I mean, hello, little girl. I mean, I'm listening to these tapes from readings. That was in from the very beginning. Everybody loves that song. Steve had an itch, and he wanted to scratch it. And he thought, what it would be like if we took that out? And so we did three, I think, three performances without the song.

[24:55] Kim Crosby: Three?

[24:56] Robert Westenberg: Yes.

[24:57] Kim Crosby: I thought you were going to say, intermission. They said, we're so sorry. We'll never do that again.

[25:01] Robert Westenberg: And Steve said, you know, you're a wolf, and you just, I mean, the wolf's got to sing a song. So we're going to put it back in. I said, thank you. I appreciate it.

[25:14] Ben Rimalower: Wow. That is mind blowing. Okay. Back to you, Kim.

[25:21] Kim Crosby: How long did you have to wait, then, to get the offer that you were going to be in it on Broadway? Or did they say to you during the San Diego run?

[25:28] Kim Crosby: No, no. I mean, there was no formal commitment at that point. I just remember Paul Gimignani saying, when I was talking to him, especially when there were rumblings of, you know, everybody getting replaced, or many of you getting replaced. I said, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God. He said, oh, you don't have anything to worry about. But that was just, that was just him saying that. And I didn't, I didn't trust it, obviously, until a contract.

[25:50] Kim Crosby: I think we were both just so excited to be in this show that we loved and to be working with people that we admired so much.

[26:20] Robert Westenberg: Yeah, and I remember the first time I saw Kim perform. I was just blown away by her talent and her presence on stage.

[26:48] Kim Crosby: It was such a magical experience, and I think we both felt that energy from the very beginning.

[27:17] Robert Westenberg: Absolutely. And the way that the show was crafted, with Sondheim's music and Lapine's book, it really brought everyone together in a unique way.

[27:43] Kim Crosby: And the rehearsal process was intense but so rewarding. We were all in it together, and it felt like we were creating something special.

[28:12] Robert Westenberg: I remember the camaraderie among the cast. We were all rooting for each other, and it felt like a family.

[28:41] Kim Crosby: Yes, and I think that bond has lasted over the years. We still keep in touch with many of our castmates.

[29:10] Robert Westenberg: It's true. The connections we made during that time are really meaningful.

[29:39] Kim Crosby: And to be part of a show that has had such a lasting impact on musical theatre is something we cherish.

[30:08] Robert Westenberg: Definitely. It's incredible to see how the show continues to resonate with audiences today.

[30:34] Kim Crosby: And I think that speaks to the brilliance of Sondheim and Lapine. They created something that is timeless.

[31:02] Robert Westenberg: I agree. The themes in the show are universal, and they touch on so many aspects of life.

[31:29] Kim Crosby: And the music is just so beautiful. It stays with you long after the show is over.

[31:55] Robert Westenberg: Yes, and performing those songs night after night was such a joy.

[32:24] Kim Crosby: I remember feeling so lucky to be able to sing those incredible melodies.

[32:53] Robert Westenberg: And the character arcs are so rich. There’s so much depth to explore.

[33:22] Kim Crosby: Absolutely. Each character has their own journey, and it’s fascinating to see how they all intertwine.

[33:49] Robert Westenberg: And the way the story challenges fairy tale conventions is brilliant.

[34:15] Kim Crosby: Yes, it really makes you think about the choices we make and the consequences that follow.

[34:44] Robert Westenberg: And I think that’s what makes it resonate with so many people.

[35:13] Kim Crosby: It’s a show that invites reflection and conversation, which is so important.

[35:42] Robert Westenberg: And being part of that conversation is something we’re both proud of.

[36:11] Kim Crosby: Definitely. It’s a legacy that we’re honored to be a part of.

[36:41] Robert Westenberg: And we hope to continue sharing our experiences and stories with others.

[37:09] Kim Crosby: Yes, it’s important to keep the spirit of the show alive.

[37:38] Robert Westenberg: And to inspire future generations of artists and audiences.

[38:07] Kim Crosby: Exactly. We’re excited to see where the journey takes us next.

[38:36] Robert Westenberg: Me too!

[38:46] Kim Crosby: I think it was just a magical experience for both of us. I mean, we were both young and just starting out in our careers, and to be part of something so groundbreaking and beautiful was just incredible.

[39:16] Robert Westenberg: Absolutely. And I remember the first time we met during the auditions. It was like a fairy tale moment. I was immediately drawn to Kim, and I think we both felt that spark.

[39:42] Kim Crosby: Yeah, it was really special. I remember thinking, "Wow, this guy is really talented," and then to find out we were both cast in the show was just the icing on the cake.

[40:10] Robert Westenberg: And then, of course, we had all those late-night rehearsals and bonding moments. It really brought us closer together.

[40:39] Kim Crosby: It did. We were spending so much time together, and it was just a natural progression from friends to something more.

[41:07] Robert Westenberg: I think the show itself had a lot to do with that. The themes of love and connection really resonated with us, and it felt like we were living out our own fairy tale.

[41:36] Kim Crosby: Definitely. And the music! Sondheim's score is just so beautiful and emotional. It really added to the experience.

[42:04] Robert Westenberg: I remember the first time I heard "Agony." It was such a fun number, and I loved performing it with Kim. It was like we were telling our own story on stage.

[42:33] Kim Crosby: Exactly! And the way Sondheim wrote those characters, it felt like we were meant to play them. It was a perfect match.

[42:59] Robert Westenberg: And then to see how the show evolved over time, it was fascinating to be part of that process. We were all learning and growing together.

[43:25] Kim Crosby: Yes, and the camaraderie among the cast was incredible. We were all in it together, supporting each other through the ups and downs.

[43:54] Robert Westenberg: And even after the show closed, that bond remained. We've all stayed connected over the years, which is really special.

[44:20] Kim Crosby: It really is. And now, looking back, it's amazing to see how the show has impacted so many people, including us.

[44:49] Robert Westenberg: Absolutely. It's a legacy that we're proud to be a part of, and it's wonderful to share our story with others.

[44:57] Kim Crosby: And to think it all started with a chance audition. It's like a real-life fairy tale!

[45:10] Robert Westenberg: It really is. And I think that's what makes the experience so magical. We found love in the woods!

[45:38] Kim Crosby: And we continue to celebrate that love and the show every chance we get.

[46:07] Robert Westenberg: Yes, and it's been great to see how the next generations of performers are inspired by "Into the Woods."

[46:34] Kim Crosby: It’s a timeless piece that resonates with so many people, and I think that’s a testament to Sondheim and Lapine’s brilliance.

[47:02] Robert Westenberg: For sure. And being able to share our experiences with audiences and fans is something we cherish.

[47:31] Kim Crosby: It’s like we’re passing down our own little piece of the fairy tale to them.

[48:00] Robert Westenberg: Exactly! And we hope that our story encourages others to pursue their dreams, just like we did.

[48:29] Kim Crosby: And to find love along the way, if that’s what they’re looking for.

[48:58] Robert Westenberg: Love is a big part of the journey, and it can come from the most unexpected places.

[49:25] Kim Crosby: Yes, and it’s important to embrace those moments and connections, no matter how small they may seem.

[49:53] Robert Westenberg: And to always keep that sense of wonder alive, just like in a fairy tale.

[50:22] Kim Crosby: Absolutely. Life is full of magic if you’re open to it.

[50:51] Robert Westenberg: And we’re so grateful for the magic that "Into the Woods" brought into our lives.

[51:17] Kim Crosby: Here’s to many more magical moments ahead!

[51:42] Kim Crosby: I mean, we've done shows together, but so yeah, we've done My Fair Lady together at the Muny.

[51:49] Robert Westenberg: We've done Kiss Me Kate in Colorado. I was seven months pregnant for that. That was fun. Yeah.

[51:58] Kim Crosby: That was interesting. Interesting and scary. Well, anyway, it was supposed to just be a staged reading. Obviously being seven months pregnant, you know, no problem. No waistline. We ended up just doing a full-fledged production.

[52:15] Robert Westenberg: Yeah. Well, listen, you know what? I don't, Eliza could have all kinds of things going on. We don't, we don't know where she's been before she gets to Henry Higgins. It's just a gutter snipe, right?

[52:28] Kim Crosby: Yeah.

[52:29] Robert Westenberg: So you have three children. Is that right?

[52:31] Kim Crosby: Yes. And how old are they? Are we sure? It's been 35 years. Yep. Emily, she's actually, as we said, our grandbaby and Emily, our oldest is 31.

[52:43] Robert Westenberg: Yep. Yep. Wow. She turned 31 in March.

[52:46] Kim Crosby: Okay. She's 30. She's 30. 30. And then we have 29. And Joey is 23.

[52:51] Robert Westenberg: Well, so they're, they're all out of the house. I assume that's amazing.

[52:58] Kim Crosby: Um, no, no. Joe was at studying at Missouri State where I teach and then COVID hit and then we didn't want him in the dorms.

[53:07] Robert Westenberg: Oh yeah. So we brought him back.

[53:12] Kim Crosby: Yeah, they closed the dorms. And, uh, so he came back for a while and that, that for a while has lasted longer than a while.

[53:17] Robert Westenberg: He's the baby. He's your baby.

[53:19] Kim Crosby: He's still in school.

[53:20] Robert Westenberg: Yeah. He's still in school. So, and I mean, I assume that they all like just grew up on Into the Woods. Like, you know, whenever we used to sing, it was like, holding the babies and we had to sing, right. And he's holding the babies that they would literally put their hands over our mouth and say, shut up.

[53:39] Kim Crosby: So, um, they, they, um, wait, speaking of sons, here's one of them. Hey Jojo. No, no, it's okay.

[53:54] Robert Westenberg: Um, so anyway, um, so yeah, what was I saying about the kids didn't like your singing?

[54:00] Kim Crosby: Yeah. So, so I mean, they, I mean, they, when we were doing Broadway shows, they were, they were little ones, do you know? And they would, they would come to the theater and see it, but it was just a part of their lives. So they didn't even think of it, but none of them went into theater.

[54:12] Robert Westenberg: No, they did a little bit of theater in high school. They can all sing. They all have really beautiful voices. I mean, that's not surprising, um, with the two of you, but they, they didn't, um, none of them did any productions of Into the Woods in high school or anything like that.

[54:24] Kim Crosby: No, no, Katie, our second, she, she's the musician. She, she plays the cello. Um, and she had done a couple of musical productions in school, but I think, yeah, it's not anything we ever would ever dream of steering them toward.

[54:41] Robert Westenberg: No, no, Emily's got a degree in chemistry and she's a physician's associate and so got her master's in that and runs a clinic in, um, helps to run a clinic in near Colorado.

[54:50] Kim Crosby: And, um, Katie, uh, has a degree in psychology, a master's degree in psychology and works, uh, in HR at, for Jack.

[55:04] Robert Westenberg: And, uh, Joey's still studying, he's studying, um, uh, design and, um, animation and, you know, that stuff.

[55:10] Kim Crosby: Yeah. Wow. Um, so, all right. They're all smart. That's great. Good job.

[55:18] Robert Westenberg: Um, that, I mean, but they must've had friends who were like, uh, you know, the odd theater fan that must've freaked out when they figured out who their parents were. Right.

[55:27] Kim Crosby: Yeah. Yeah. That happens.

[55:31] Robert Westenberg: Well, Emily and our oldest, her husband, Sean has a sister Kara and she's a theater geek. She was lamenting, I should have been the one to marry into a theater family.

[55:42] Kim Crosby: Anyway, so it's really fun to have that, to have that connection and have theater fans.

[55:50] Robert Westenberg: By the way, they're, they're here because, uh, Sean, our son-in-law was running in the best pro marathon yesterday here in Springfield and he won. He won the marathon.

[56:06] Kim Crosby: Wow. I know.

[56:07] Robert Westenberg: Yeah, he's a lawyer and, uh, they live in Longmont, which is where he was raised and, uh, and it's a beautiful town just about 30 minutes North of Denver. But yeah, he won.

[56:16] Kim Crosby: Well, I guess it's not a race until you're, uh, winning it and then it's a race.

[56:22] Robert Westenberg: Yeah.

[56:23] Kim Crosby: A little sore today.

[56:28] Robert Westenberg: Yeah, he's actually limping. They're getting ready to, we're helping them pack up. They're getting ready to head back to, uh, Longmont this afternoon. So.

[56:32] Kim Crosby: Oh, wow. Well, well, thank you for taking time to talk to me when there you have your kids there. That's amazing.

[56:37] Robert Westenberg: Baby's down for a nap.

[56:46] Kim Crosby: Well, I love that your grandparents, that, that is so beautiful.

[56:50] Robert Westenberg: And it's great. He's the light of our lives.

[56:56] Kim Crosby: Yeah. Uh, it's so, it's so great to talk to you. I really appreciate this and you're, this is just, I, is there anything else you want to just, um, share that we didn't touch on?

[57:02] Robert Westenberg: Um, I think most of the, most of the highlights, but I mean, what a, what a privilege of a lifetime, you know, kind of goes without saying it's just, you know, certainly from a career standpoint, proudest, proudest moment in my life.

[57:21] Kim Crosby: And again, it's, it's, it's a gift that keeps on giving, you know, it just lives on and on. And I'm so proud of the fact that it's, you know, that it's produced more than any other, just, it's really wonderful to have been a part of it in a small way, a part of its success too.

[57:32] Robert Westenberg: Not a small way, not a small way. I think it's the lucky that it's the Sondheim show. That's sort of, I think the most accessible, you know, most producible, and it can be produced at any level and it can be produced in so many different ways.

[57:46] Kim Crosby: And Steve loved the fact that, you know, all the different productions around the world, what different people were doing, they're doing, going expressionistic. He really relished all that, which was, and during the creative process and especially in, well, throughout until the Broadway production opened, he was just always so collaborative.

[58:04] Robert Westenberg: There were just open conversations all the time. He wasn't this lofty, you know, genius that, you know, that you couldn't talk to. He, you know, he was in the trenches with every, everybody else.

[58:19] Kim Crosby: And with his, with his rhyming dictionary. I mean, literally there was one time he was trying to find a rhyme for catafalque, I think.

[58:25] Robert Westenberg: Yes. And, and, and he said, I can't find it. And so he basically said to the guys, if anybody can figure this out, help me out. Then he, then he took it out entirely and blah, blah, blah. But he was just, you know, he was, he was just that way. He was great.

[58:39] Kim Crosby: Wow. I love that.

[58:44] Robert Westenberg: Well, it's, it is, it is the most accessible. I mean, it's, I think it's actually like a gateway musical for so many people, certainly to Sondheim's other stuff, but even just to, to musical theater in general, it's, it's such a, a touchstone.

[59:01] Kim Crosby: I mean, it, you know, or certainly up there with like, I don't know, Les Mis or, you know, Oklahoma or whatever. I mean, it's just one of the great, just everybody loves it musicals. And I don't think we, did you realize it at the time that it was going to be that iconic?

[59:11] Robert Westenberg: I didn't, I know I didn't. I just thought, well, there's another show that I did and had a great run, fantastic. And then I moved on to the next project.

[59:21] Kim Crosby: Right.

[59:21] Robert Westenberg: But, but then it, then it hit me, you know, in terms of how, how, what, what kind of traction it had with future generations.

[59:27] Kim Crosby: I mean, the thing is being too close, too close to it.

[59:35] Robert Westenberg: Like Kim said, at the end of it, she was, she was exhausted and it was, it was two years. It's a grind, right? You really have to grind this to keep it fresh, you know, to approach it brand new every day. Or certainly to, to cut out before, you know, before you don't want to give it anything, but you're very, very best.

[59:51] Kim Crosby: This is one thing about, you know, Barbara Brin, Jack's mom, you know, she, she was just such a, of course it was, we were working with a fabulous cast of professionals and, you know, but I, I just always admired what, what she did and her, her routine and her technique.

[1:00:05] Robert Westenberg: And she always stayed on stage. You know, I sat on, on stage, but often the wings. She was, she was there. It had, when I got there, I had to be there a little bit early because I had makeup, special makeup. So I got there, I think at 710 or something like that.

[1:00:24] Kim Crosby: And when I got there at 710, which was 50 minutes before the, we, you know, right for the curtain Barbara was on stage going through her lines in costume and makeup.

[1:00:39] Robert Westenberg: Wow. Every night. She gave me one of my, well, the best pieces of advice as far as keeping a show fresh and only because it's what she always had done was to change a little something every night, every performance, have a different, just pick a place, give it a different line reading, a different inflection.

[1:01:02] Kim Crosby: And, and for her, she said it just gave her something to look forward to.

[1:01:09] Robert Westenberg: And, and it was amazing that once you implement that sort of thing, how, how everything beyond it changes as well. You know, it's just, it's just like a, like a refresher and because it changes the reaction you're getting from the person because it's new and different.

[1:01:20] Kim Crosby: Yeah.

[1:01:21] Robert Westenberg: And it doesn't have to be a tiny thing, you know, don't, you know, don't change your blocking or anything like that, but, but just, it was amazing how effective that was. So I always chucked that away and she gave me her Yorkshire pudding recipe. So I'll forever be grateful.

[1:01:36] Kim Crosby: I love that.

[1:01:36] Robert Westenberg: Well, I'm sure you, you had that in mind for your Mrs. Lovett then.

[1:01:42] Kim Crosby: What's that?

[1:01:42] Robert Westenberg: Oh, oh yes. You mean as far as her Yorkshire pudding?

[1:01:48] Kim Crosby: Oh yeah.

[1:01:48] Robert Westenberg: Yeah. Yeah. And it was just a brief friend. We were only running for three, three weeks with that, but man, that was a, well, she never stops talking. Lots of words in that one, but, but, but that was a gas, that, that was, that was a gas.

[1:02:00] Kim Crosby: Yeah. I mean, you know, I mean, I mean the world will, whatever. I, I think he was writing a new piece, wasn't he, at the time he passed away.

[1:02:14] Robert Westenberg: Yeah. Boy, what a, you know what, how I'm grateful for his life.

[1:02:22] Kim Crosby: Yeah.

[1:02:22] Robert Westenberg: It gave me mine and, and it was important to me. So thank you. Thank you, Steve.

[1:02:27] Kim Crosby: Yeah. Well, and I'm glad you all had that reunion together on stage recently. You know, that, that must be a very special, you know, third installment or whatever.

[1:02:35] Robert Westenberg: He got very sentimental at that.

[1:02:41] Kim Crosby: Yeah, I bet. But he did.

[1:02:41] Robert Westenberg: Yeah. It was, it was lovely.

[1:02:46] Kim Crosby: Yeah.

[1:02:46] Robert Westenberg: But there was, you know, we, you learn something new every day. It was sort of like a, his scoring too. And Jonathan Tunick scores it for Into the Woods and all other, you know, all the shows that he had lent his hand to, where, where there are just melodies plucked out in here that you'll find in, in the oboe this time.

[1:03:00] Kim Crosby: And it just, just in listening to the show over the intercom backstage, I never stopped hearing new things in it. It was just so very, very rich. Everything was all by design. And it was, it was absolutely glorious.

[1:03:12] Robert Westenberg: That's the nice thing about the revival now is because it's from encores, it has the full original orchestration and they're on stage. So you feel very much in the presence of all the instruments.

[1:03:23] Kim Crosby: Yeah. I hope that you, I hope that you both get to see it. I'm sure that, that would mean a lot to you.

[1:03:30] Robert Westenberg: Yeah, I'll be there. We're actually there next weekend.

[1:03:35] Kim Crosby: Wonderful.

[1:03:36] Robert Westenberg: Yeah. And then I'll be back in the spring for a showcase.

[1:03:44] Kim Crosby: Fantastic. It's still running. I'll try and see it.

[1:03:50] Robert Westenberg: Yeah.

[1:03:50] Kim Crosby: Well, thank you again for this. It's so wonderful to talk to you.

[1:03:59] Robert Westenberg: It's been lovely meeting you, man.

[1:04:04] Kim Crosby: Thank you for listening to Giants in the Sky. How Sondheim and Lapine went into the woods on the Broadway Podcast Network. Look out for episode 14 with Joy Franz, the original stepmother.