This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:01] Ben Rimalower: Broadway Podcast Network presents Giants in the Sky. How Sondheim and Lapine went into the woods with me, Ben Rimalower.

[0:08] Ben Rimalower: Today's guest, Joy Franz, the Original Stepmother.

[0:13] Ben Rimalower: Once upon a time... Joy Franz created the role of the stepmother in Into the Woods, beginning at Playwrights Horizons and continuing through its Old Globe premiere to the Broadway opening, eventually playing the role in James Lapine's revival with Vanessa Williams. Her other original Sondheim productions include Assassins, A Little Night Music, and the original West End cast of Company. Her many other Broadway credits include Bob Fosse's original productions of Pippin and Sweet Charity, and revivals of Les Liaisons Dangereuses, I tried, and Guys and Dolls, as well as innumerable regional and touring credits, including most recently Anastasia, in addition to a host of television performances.

[1:01] Joy Franz: I've worked with him six times.

[1:03] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[1:04] Joy Franz: The first was Company, then A Little Night Music.

[1:08] Ben Rimalower: And did you do replacing on Company before you went on the tour of Company, or did you start on the tour and then... What was the order?

[1:15] Joy Franz: No, I went to London with Company.

[1:17] Ben Rimalower: Oh, that was your first one.

[1:18] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[1:19] Joy Franz: I got to do it on Broadway for two weeks because they needed to say the original, from Broadway.

[1:26] Ben Rimalower: Right, because it was Elaine Stritch and Donna McKechnie, Larry Kurtz.

[1:29] Joy Franz: Oh, yes.

[1:30] Joy Franz: And Barbara Berry.

[1:33] Ben Rimalower: Barbara Berry.

[1:38] Joy Franz: But not Beth Howland, is that right?

[1:43] Joy Franz: No, it was April... Oh, no. Julia McKenzie, was she that role?

[1:49] Ben Rimalower: No, because she did, well, when they replaced us.

[1:52] Joy Franz: Oh, gotcha. Did she replace you?

[1:54] Ben Rimalower: No.

[1:55] Joy Franz: No.

[1:56] Joy Franz: I don't know what part she did.

[1:58] Ben Rimalower: And then, who replaced Donna was Antonia Ellis.

[2:07] Joy Franz: Oh, right.

[2:08] Joy Franz: And which we got to do Pippin together.

[2:12] Ben Rimalower: Mm.

[2:13] Joy Franz: She was Mistrata.

[2:14] Ben Rimalower: Oh, yeah.

[2:15] Joy Franz: And then we've become, we're eternal friends.

[2:18] Ben Rimalower: Mm.

[2:19] Joy Franz: And, yeah, I got to do Pippin with everyone, all the guys.

[2:26] Ben Rimalower: And had you taken over from Betty Buckley?

[2:29] Joy Franz: I did. I stood by for her for a year and a half.

[2:32] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[2:33] Joy Franz: And then I took over and did it for a year and a half, and then I did a little tour.

[2:38] Joy Franz: I decided not to do the national tour, which was stupid.

[2:44] Ben Rimalower: But, anyway, I didn't do the national tour.

[2:47] Ben Rimalower: Well, you were young. You were having fun in New York City. What did you want to go on tour for?

[2:50] Joy Franz: Yes, I was involved with some asshole.

[2:52] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, well, isn't that always the way?

[2:54] Joy Franz: Yeah, really.

[2:56] Joy Franz: You know, Company, Little Night Music, which I replaced.

[3:01] Ben Rimalower: Yes, Mrs. Nordstrom.

[3:03] Joy Franz: Mrs. Nordstrom, I replaced Terry Ralston.

[3:08] Joy Franz: And then, I don't know which went first.

[3:16] Joy Franz: Merrily We Roll Along, out in La Jolla.

[3:20] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, that was the year before you did Into the Woods.

[3:23] Joy Franz: Assassins.

[3:24] Ben Rimalower: No, then I did Assassins.

[3:26] Joy Franz: Oh, and early, early. At the, you know, Playwrights Horizon.

[3:30] Ben Rimalower: No, because that was after Into the Woods.

[3:32] Joy Franz: It was?

[3:33] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I know you did Merrily at La Jolla in 85.

[3:37] Joy Franz: With James Lapine.

[3:38] Ben Rimalower: And then, you did Into the Woods in La Jolla in 86.

[3:42] Joy Franz: Not La Jolla, San Diego.

[3:44] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, San Diego.

[3:45] Joy Franz: 86, Broadway, 87.

[3:46] Ben Rimalower: And then Assassins, I think the Playwrights Horizons was 1989 or 1990.

[3:53] Joy Franz: Because it was the Iraq War was why they didn't.

[3:56] Ben Rimalower: I know. You were supposed to go to Broadway.

[3:58] Joy Franz: Yeah, yeah. A lot of the talk now when they analyze it was that it was that everybody was rallying behind the flag.

[4:05] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, they thought maybe we were glorifying the assassins.

[4:08] Joy Franz: Yes.

[4:09] Joy Franz: Which was just the opposite.

[4:10] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[4:11] Joy Franz: It's saying this is what happened.

[4:13] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[4:14] Joy Franz: We're having guns.

[4:15] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[4:16] Joy Franz: And then I did the second Into the Woods.

[4:18] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah.

[4:19] Joy Franz: And the tour, and then.

[4:24] Ben Rimalower: Is that it? Is that six?

[4:25] Joy Franz: That's a lot, yeah.

[4:27] Ben Rimalower: And.

[4:28] Joy Franz: That's six.

[4:29] Joy Franz: Wait, I had, I had actually had something open on my phone. Can you get that out?

[4:33] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[4:34] Joy Franz: Because there's, you know, there's this great website. Well, there's IBDB, which has.

[4:38] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, and it doesn't have all of my stuff.

[4:40] Joy Franz: Well, the Overture is good, too, because it has weird things like readings and London on it.

[4:44] Joy Franz: Oh, I did a lot of readings.

[4:45] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, well, it doesn't have every reading.

[4:47] Joy Franz: But it has like the Playwrights Horizons Into the Woods reading.

[4:49] Ben Rimalower: Which maybe you can help me clarify.

[4:51] Joy Franz: Because so far I've talked to James Lapine.

[4:54] Joy Franz: And I've talked to Paul Ford.

[4:56] Joy Franz: And nobody remembers.

[4:57] Ben Rimalower: What?

[4:58] Joy Franz: I'm like, well, so there was a reading at Playwrights at some point of Into the Woods.

[5:03] Joy Franz: And then there was a workshop at Playwrights Horizons of Into the Woods.

[5:07] Joy Franz: We did a reading first.

[5:08] Joy Franz: And then we went out.

[5:12] Ben Rimalower: Because according to the website, there was reading, then workshop, then San Diego, then another workshop, then Broadway.

[5:21] Joy Franz: And then according to some people, there was another reading after the workshop just for Bernadette to read it with the rest of you before you started rehearsals.

[5:30] Joy Franz: But some people have no memory of it.

[5:33] Ben Rimalower: It's like such conflicting oral histories.

[5:36] Joy Franz: So we didn't do another one.

[5:38] Joy Franz: Just remembering the first table read, you know, as an event.

[5:42] Joy Franz: Because you had all just been together minus Bernadette.

[5:45] Joy Franz: We did do the first reading at Playwrights.

[5:49] Joy Franz: And then out to San Diego.

[5:55] Joy Franz: And then came back.

[5:59] Joy Franz: And did another workshop because they replaced the one that did Ellen Foley.

[6:06] Ben Rimalower: Ellen Foley, who was marvelous.

[6:08] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[6:09] Ben Rimalower: And were you still in the show on Broadway when she came back in and played the witch at the end of the run?

[6:14] Joy Franz: No.

[6:16] Joy Franz: I was in the show from the beginning and the end.

[6:20] Joy Franz: Ellen Foley came back.

[6:22] Joy Franz: James Lapine also denies the...

[6:24] Ben Rimalower: But there's playbills with her name on the title page.

[6:29] Joy Franz: I mean, I think it was just a short...

[6:31] Joy Franz: Actually, I think Abby Dee Dee even has the timing of that.

[6:33] Ben Rimalower: What?

[6:34] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[6:35] Joy Franz: That she was the final witch on Broadway.

[6:43] Ben Rimalower: Well, it's very possible.

[6:44] Ben Rimalower: I mean, it's so funny. I was coming into this thinking there would be bones of contention.

[6:49] Joy Franz: That people disagreed about things.

[6:51] Ben Rimalower: But it's the bare facts of what happened.

[6:55] Joy Franz: There's so many conflicting...

[6:57] Joy Franz: I am talking to Chip Zion.

[6:59] Ben Rimalower: And people say that he is the scribe.

[7:04] Joy Franz: That he's the Roman guy who wrote the history.

[7:08] Joy Franz: That he's going to give me the Josephus.

[7:10] Ben Rimalower: What?

[7:11] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[7:12] Joy Franz: So hopefully he'll have all that.

[7:15] Ben Rimalower: But yeah, it's so funny. Everyone remembers things very differently.

[7:18] Joy Franz: Okay, replacements on Broadway.

[7:20] Joy Franz: Ellen Foley was the witch for a month.

[7:23] Ben Rimalower: And is that the closing month?

[7:24] Joy Franz: August to September of 89?

[7:26] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, she played the final month.

[7:31] Joy Franz: That's very odd.

[7:33] Ben Rimalower: But I don't remember that.

[7:35] Joy Franz: Well, you're not alone.

[7:38] Joy Franz: I don't remember that.

[7:40] Ben Rimalower: Well...

[7:42] Joy Franz: And it lists you not just as the stepmother.

[7:44] Joy Franz: And an understudy for the witch.

[7:46] Joy Franz: But also as a replacement witch.

[7:48] Ben Rimalower: Did you actually have the part for a while?

[7:50] Joy Franz: I did it for almost two weeks.

[7:58] Ben Rimalower: Nancy Douceau?

[7:59] Joy Franz: Nancy Douceau fell down some stairs.

[8:02] Ben Rimalower: Oh my.

[8:03] Joy Franz: At her country home.

[8:04] Joy Franz: And broke her arm.

[8:05] Ben Rimalower: This is the perils of having a TV sitcom.

[8:08] Joy Franz: You can fall down empty stairs.

[8:10] Ben Rimalower: The revival.

[8:14] Joy Franz: No, that was Pamela Myers in the revival.

[8:17] Ben Rimalower: That you replaced her.

[8:20] Joy Franz: But Nancy Douceau in the original fell down stairs.

[8:22] Joy Franz: Yeah, and broke her arm.

[8:24] Joy Franz: And I got to go on for like two weeks.

[8:26] Ben Rimalower: And had you already gone on in the role sporadically before that?

[8:29] Joy Franz: No, I did...

[8:33] Joy Franz: You know, we did some things like raising money for...

[8:38] Joy Franz: You know, some hotels.

[8:40] Joy Franz: I sang the part.

[8:42] Ben Rimalower: And you had your understudy.

[8:44] Joy Franz: But that must have been fun.

[8:45] Joy Franz: And I was the understudy.

[8:46] Joy Franz: Knowing that she was out for a whole two weeks.

[8:48] Joy Franz: You could invite all your friends and your agent and all that.

[8:50] Joy Franz: Oh, yes.

[8:51] Ben Rimalower: So where are these tapes of you as the witch?

[8:54] Joy Franz: I don't think I have any.

[8:55] Ben Rimalower: Oh, well we're going to find them, Joy.

[8:57] Joy Franz: Give me time.

[8:58] Joy Franz: There was one that somebody...

[9:02] Joy Franz: An artist that does the caricatures like...

[9:08] Ben Rimalower: What's his face?

[9:09] Joy Franz: Oh, like Ken Fallon.

[9:10] Joy Franz: Like Al Hirschfeld.

[9:12] Ben Rimalower: Is it in New Jersey?

[9:14] Joy Franz: Oh, no.

[9:16] Joy Franz: Ken Fallon's on the Upper West Side.

[9:18] Joy Franz: But those kind of caricatures.

[9:20] Ben Rimalower: No, the famous...

[9:21] Joy Franz: Al Hirschfeld.

[9:22] Joy Franz: Hirschfeld.

[9:23] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[9:24] Joy Franz: But there was a guy that did a caricature of me.

[9:29] Joy Franz: And he's...

[9:30] Joy Franz: And I haven't been able to find it.

[9:32] Ben Rimalower: Oh, that's a fun thing to track down.

[9:34] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[9:35] Joy Franz: In New Jersey, he's like...

[9:37] Joy Franz: I don't know.

[9:39] Joy Franz: We've got to find it.

[9:41] Ben Rimalower: Well, okay. Let's go back to the very beginning.

[9:43] Joy Franz: Because you...

[9:44] Joy Franz: That's a very good place to start.

[9:45] Ben Rimalower: Exactly.

[9:46] Joy Franz: All right.

[9:50] Ben Rimalower: That was not your Broadway debut at Pippin, though.

[9:52] Joy Franz: You had done something before.

[9:53] Joy Franz: No.

[9:54] Joy Franz: Well, a company even before that.

[9:55] Ben Rimalower: No.

[9:56] Joy Franz: Oh, Guys and Dolls at City Center.

[9:57] Ben Rimalower: Oh.

[9:58] Joy Franz: Well, yes.

[9:59] Joy Franz: They call that Broadway.

[10:00] Ben Rimalower: Well, they don't call that Broadway.

[10:01] Joy Franz: Well, you have high standards.

[10:02] Joy Franz: But it was nominated for Tony's, those City Center revivals in the 60s.

[10:07] Ben Rimalower: Isn't that crazy?

[10:09] Joy Franz: These short runs.

[10:11] Joy Franz: It was just...

[10:12] Joy Franz: I don't know how good it'd be.

[10:14] Ben Rimalower: They were calling it Broadway.

[10:15] Joy Franz: It was...

[10:16] Joy Franz: I know that one.

[10:17] Ben Rimalower: You were with Anita Gillette.

[10:19] Joy Franz: Right.

[10:20] Ben Rimalower: And Alan King.

[10:21] Joy Franz: Right.

[10:22] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[10:23] Joy Franz: My first Broadway show was Sweet Charity.

[10:28] Ben Rimalower: Oh.

[10:29] Joy Franz: And see, they don't even have that.

[10:30] Ben Rimalower: I'm going to talk about Broadway.

[10:31] Joy Franz: They don't even have that on IBDB.

[10:33] Ben Rimalower: Crazy.

[10:34] Joy Franz: Yeah, it was Sweet Charity.

[10:35] Ben Rimalower: Okay.

[10:36] Ben Rimalower: So when did you go into Sweet Charity?

[10:38] Joy Franz: That was in...

[10:40] Joy Franz: I came to New York in 64.

[10:44] Joy Franz: And I think...

[10:46] Joy Franz: I have to find the...

[10:48] Joy Franz: They gave us...

[10:49] Joy Franz: I think it was 65?

[10:53] Joy Franz: Or 66.

[10:54] Joy Franz: 66.

[10:55] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[10:56] Joy Franz: 65, 66.

[10:57] Ben Rimalower: And was Gwen still in it then?

[10:58] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[10:59] Ben Rimalower: Oh, yes.

[11:00] Joy Franz: And were you in the ensemble? Were you dancing?

[11:02] Joy Franz: I was one of the big spender girls and understudied Ruth Bussey.

[11:07] Ben Rimalower: Oh, wow.

[11:08] Joy Franz: And got to do her parts when she went on vacation.

[11:10] Joy Franz: I get laughs.

[11:11] Ben Rimalower: Oh, God, yes. How fun.

[11:14] Joy Franz: And, I mean...

[11:15] Joy Franz: But you knew that you were an actress, singer, not some chorus girl, right?

[11:21] Joy Franz: I mean...

[11:22] Joy Franz: Or were you just young and wanted to do everything?

[11:23] Joy Franz: No, no, no.

[11:24] Joy Franz: I left.

[11:26] Joy Franz: I left Sweet Charity because I couldn't stand to be in the ensemble.

[11:30] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah.

[11:31] Joy Franz: So I left and went out to do leads in Summer Stock.

[11:35] Ben Rimalower: Fabulous.

[11:36] Joy Franz: What were your favorite Summer Stock roles?

[11:40] Joy Franz: I guess...

[11:42] Joy Franz: There's gotta be...

[11:43] Joy Franz: Well, there's so many now.

[11:44] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[11:45] Joy Franz: But I left that show to do The Sound of Music.

[11:49] Joy Franz: And then...

[11:51] Joy Franz: Well, Carousel is the one that got me into theater.

[11:54] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[11:55] Joy Franz: Actually, when I did it in high school.

[11:57] Ben Rimalower: With Julie Jordan.

[11:58] Joy Franz: I was.

[11:59] Joy Franz: And I thought I would be a concert singer.

[12:02] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[12:03] Joy Franz: And then...

[12:04] Joy Franz: Had you trained operatically?

[12:05] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[12:06] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, because you were a soprano.

[12:08] Joy Franz: I was a soprano and I was, you know, I'd be a classic singer.

[12:11] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[12:13] Joy Franz: And then when I did that part, it was like...

[12:16] Joy Franz: Oh!

[12:17] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[12:19] Joy Franz: It's acting and singing.

[12:20] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[12:21] Joy Franz: You get to cry.

[12:22] Joy Franz: You get to make people laugh.

[12:24] Ben Rimalower: That went...

[12:26] Joy Franz: Well, and those are such...

[12:27] Joy Franz: I mean, If I Loved You and What's the Use of Wondering.

[12:29] Ben Rimalower: I mean...

[12:30] Joy Franz: That's...

[12:31] Joy Franz: So gorgeous.

[12:32] Joy Franz: That is my favorite song of all the world.

[12:34] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[12:35] Joy Franz: In all the world, is If I Loved You.

[12:36] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[12:37] Joy Franz: Because, like I said, that's what got me into...

[12:39] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[12:41] Joy Franz: And that was the golden age of Summer Stock, right?

[12:43] Ben Rimalower: I mean, were you doing, like, what the...

[12:45] Joy Franz: The Kenley Players and those...

[12:47] Joy Franz: You know, that...

[12:48] Ben Rimalower: Tents everywhere and...

[12:49] Joy Franz: That asshole didn't never...

[12:50] Joy Franz: Never hired me.

[12:51] Ben Rimalower: And I auditioned for him.

[12:53] Joy Franz: I never got to do the Kenley Players.

[12:55] Ben Rimalower: Oh.

[12:56] Joy Franz: Well, his loss.

[12:57] Ben Rimalower: I'll say.

[12:58] Joy Franz: And...

[12:59] Joy Franz: Anyway.

[13:00] Joy Franz: And I got...

[13:01] Joy Franz: Man of La Mancha with John Raitt.

[13:03] Ben Rimalower: Mm.

[13:04] Joy Franz: Oh, wow.

[13:05] Ben Rimalower: Were you...

[13:06] Ben Rimalower: Now, you...

[13:07] Joy Franz: Were you the niece in that?

[13:08] Ben Rimalower: Or were you Al Danza?

[13:10] Joy Franz: What do you think?

[13:11] Ben Rimalower: Well, I don't know.

[13:12] Joy Franz: You were a little young to be Al Danza opposite John Raitt.

[13:14] Ben Rimalower: But I know in those days, they would put the star and give him this beautiful young lady and inappropriate age difference.

[13:20] Joy Franz: Oh, yeah.

[13:21] Joy Franz: Well, they weren't in love.

[13:23] Ben Rimalower: Right, I guess...

[13:24] Joy Franz: It wasn't a love...

[13:25] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[13:26] Joy Franz: You know, she loved him, but it wasn't a love relation.

[13:28] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[13:29] Joy Franz: Yeah, no, I was Al Danza.

[13:30] Ben Rimalower: What a great role.

[13:31] Joy Franz: Oh.

[13:32] Joy Franz: I would say that would be my most...

[13:35] Ben Rimalower: Favorite.

[13:36] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[13:37] Joy Franz: So, okay.

[13:38] Ben Rimalower: Well, and then...

[13:39] Joy Franz: Oh, no.

[13:41] Joy Franz: That can't be my most favorite.

[13:42] Ben Rimalower: But, anyway.

[13:43] Joy Franz: Well, you...

[13:44] Joy Franz: There were probably things that were more fun.

[13:45] Joy Franz: That's a downer.

[13:46] Joy Franz: Oh, no.

[13:47] Joy Franz: It just was just glorious.

[13:49] Ben Rimalower: Glorious.

[13:50] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[13:51] Ben Rimalower: Driving Miss Daisy, I would say.

[13:54] Joy Franz: Well, that's a lot.

[13:55] Joy Franz: That's many decades later.

[13:56] Ben Rimalower: I know.

[13:57] Joy Franz: But, so, are there other Broadway credits of yours that are missing here from IBDB?

[14:01] Joy Franz: Because they don't have anything...

[14:03] Joy Franz: They don't have Sweet Charity.

[14:04] Ben Rimalower: Is it me that's supposed to put them on?

[14:06] Joy Franz: I guess so.

[14:07] Joy Franz: Yeah, that would have...

[14:08] Ben Rimalower: But I think I can probably submit it.

[14:10] Joy Franz: Oh, could you?

[14:11] Ben Rimalower: But I just have...

[14:12] Joy Franz: Did you have a playbill?

[14:13] Ben Rimalower: I'm technically challenged.

[14:15] Joy Franz: Do you have any playbills from that?

[14:18] Ben Rimalower: From...

[14:19] Joy Franz: From Sweet Charity?

[14:21] Joy Franz: Maybe somewhere.

[14:22] Ben Rimalower: I'll look them up online.

[14:23] Joy Franz: It might just be online.

[14:24] Ben Rimalower: Well...

[14:25] Joy Franz: Well, okay.

[14:26] Joy Franz: But anything else that we might be missing on Broadway?

[14:29] Joy Franz: I guess what I'm trying to get at is, you know, what was your context when you...

[14:36] Joy Franz: You'd done Pippin before Company.

[14:39] Ben Rimalower: Is that right?

[14:40] Joy Franz: Or is that just that Pippin...

[14:41] Joy Franz: No, Company was first.

[14:42] Ben Rimalower: Okay, so Sondheim must have meant nothing to you when you got the audition, because what, a funny thing happened with the Forum or Gypsy? I mean, it wasn't, he wasn't the composer that, you know, dominates our lives.

[14:55] Joy Franz: Well, he didn't dominate then.

[14:56] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, so you, and had you seen it when it opened, before you went in?

[15:04] Joy Franz: Well, no, I don't think so. So it was just this interesting audition. I was doing Jacques Brel's Alive and Well.

[15:12] Ben Rimalower: Oh, yeah, I love that score. What, which were your songs in that?

[15:17] Joy Franz: Which, oh, those songs. Hi, Marieke, Maria, come back again. And then, uh, I loved all games and fairy tales. I did both, both roles.

[15:29] Ben Rimalower: Mm. Oh, so you sang everything eventually. Yeah.

[15:32] Joy Franz: Yeah. And that's where I first met Rita Gardner.

[15:38] Ben Rimalower: Sorry about that.

[15:39] Joy Franz: I am too. And I can't find Bob, her, her last husband, Bob Serva. And I can't find the address. I mean, we did Side by Side together. And we also did, in which we shared a house together.

[15:59] Ben Rimalower: Where was that?

[16:00] Joy Franz: That was out in Long Island. Um, I don't know. We were friends for quite a while.

[16:10] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[16:10] Joy Franz: And then, you know, things happen and blah, blah, blah.

[16:14] Ben Rimalower: Life of an actor, right? So.

[16:16] Joy Franz: Yeah, which I can't stand.

[16:17] Ben Rimalower: Well.

[16:18] Joy Franz: Losing, you have to really work at it.

[16:21] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. So you're in Jacques Brel, this long running hit review at the Village Gate. Very cool.

[16:26] Joy Franz: Cool.

[16:26] Ben Rimalower: Down on Bleaker Street, you know, singing these great songs.

[16:30] Joy Franz: Not making a lot of money though, right? Off Broadway.

[16:33] Ben Rimalower: At that time, are you kidding?

[16:34] Joy Franz: Right. Well, rents were cheap, right?

[16:37] Ben Rimalower: Yes, rents were cheap, but still.

[16:40] Joy Franz: Yeah. I remember, uh, Ruthie, when I went on for her and she said, please don't tell anybody because at that time you made, uh, what they made.

[16:50] Ben Rimalower: Oh, oh.

[16:52] Joy Franz: Uh, something. And I think she was making $350.

[16:56] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[16:57] Joy Franz: And she didn't want anyone to know.

[16:59] Ben Rimalower: No. And wait, was that was before Laughing or no?

[17:04] Joy Franz: Oh yes. Way before Laughing.

[17:05] Ben Rimalower: Oh, so she was a talented up and comer.

[17:08] Joy Franz: Oh yeah.

[17:09] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[17:10] Joy Franz: Yeah. Um. But anyway, you asked me.

[17:13] Ben Rimalower: Yes. Okay. Company was the first time to work with some.

[17:15] Joy Franz: So you go in and what, do you remember your audition for Company?

[17:19] Joy Franz: Uh, yes. I think I sang, uh, I'm Marika Marika, I'm pretty sure I sang that and Hal said to me, where have you been?

[17:34] Ben Rimalower: And you know, at that time, an agent didn't submit me for Broadway.

[17:40] Joy Franz: Yeah. Right.

[17:41] Ben Rimalower: Wasn't submitting me for Broadway things.

[17:43] Joy Franz: Yeah. Well, you must've been, if you didn't know that much about Sondheim, you certainly knew much about Hal at that time, even just as a producer.

[17:50] Joy Franz: Oh yeah. Well, yeah.

[17:51] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. So, so you get the job.

[17:53] Joy Franz: So you get the job to go in.

[17:55] Joy Franz: And with Michael Bennett.

[17:56] Ben Rimalower: And Michael Bennett. Yeah.

[17:59] Joy Franz: And were you intimidated at all by Hal and Michael Bennett or just excited to.

[18:04] Joy Franz: No.

[18:04] Ben Rimalower: No.

[18:04] Joy Franz: Thrilled. And the, the audition was for the London production. You were just doing two weeks on Broadway to be part of that.

[18:11] Joy Franz: It was for the London because, uh, Meryl didn't, a lot of the people didn't want to go to England. Didn't want to go out of town. Meryl, uh.

[18:22] Ben Rimalower: Erickson opening night cast of company.

[18:25] Joy Franz: Susan was Meryl Louise.

[18:28] Ben Rimalower: Thank you.

[18:28] Joy Franz: Yeah. Well, I got the first.

[18:30] Ben Rimalower: And you worked with her many times later.

[18:33] Joy Franz: Well, into the woods most significantly.

[18:36] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[18:36] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[18:38] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. I guess she wasn't in all the other into the woods is, um, is she still around? Do you, have you had any contact with her?

[18:45] Joy Franz: As far as I know, I'm pretty sure she is. I did a reading with her in like 1998, like when I was an intern at the McCarter theater and she was so amazing. And I just, I remember the first day of rehearsal, Judy Blazer walked in and said, Meryl, Judy Blazer, I've loved you in everything. I thought she has been in everything.

[19:05] Ben Rimalower: That's right. She's been in so many, so many things.

[19:09] Joy Franz: Yeah. Well, it's on time too. Um, so, okay. Well, uh, so, so you go off, had you been to London before? Had you worked there at all?

[19:15] Joy Franz: No, company was the first time. And, um, that's what, I mean, I know that the show was very...

[19:21] Joy Franz: Oh, we opened in 1972 and I remember our opening night was at Chow Chinese restaurant.

[19:29] Ben Rimalower: How chic.

[19:30] Joy Franz: Oh, it was, it was just great. Just great. I found a wonderful little muse house.

[19:37] Ben Rimalower: And...

[19:37] Joy Franz: What's a muse house?

[19:38] Joy Franz: It's, uh, like a carriage, you know, where they park their cars, but they call them muse, muse house.

[19:44] Ben Rimalower: Oh, like the, like the, on the muse, M-E-W-S.

[19:48] Joy Franz: M-E-W-S. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, it was like a doll's house to walk up the stairs.

[19:55] Ben Rimalower: In what, in near the, in the theater district?

[19:58] Joy Franz: Uh, no. Uh, I took the tube in.

[20:00] Ben Rimalower: Oh, look at you. Not intimidated, just ready to take London by storm.

[20:05] Joy Franz: Oh, yeah.

[20:06] Ben Rimalower: And, and how long were you there? Do you remember?

[20:08] Joy Franz: I think we were there two months, I think. Then I was there with Dan Yankees, with Jerry Jones. Many, many years later.

[20:17] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[20:17] Joy Franz: And you were, you were Meg in that.

[20:19] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[20:20] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Love that role.

[20:22] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[20:23] Ben Rimalower: Glorious role. Um, what's that hilarious song about the six months or the...

[20:28] Joy Franz: Six months on a ferry.

[20:30] Ben Rimalower: Oh my God.

[20:32] Joy Franz: I love it. Um, okay. So did, did you spend a lot of time with Sondheim, uh, on, on that London engagement of company?

[20:40] Ben Rimalower: What do you mean spend a lot of time? Was he very involved in that rehearsal process or was it the show was finished and it was really just Hal and Michael Bennett?

[20:49] Joy Franz: No, no, he was around, definitely.

[20:51] Ben Rimalower: And, uh, I mean, did you have any idea that this was someone you'd be working with so much over the next, you know, 20 years?

[20:57] Joy Franz: No, uh-uh, no.

[20:58] Ben Rimalower: Um, but then when it closed, how soon after that did you go into the national tour in the States?

[21:03] Joy Franz: Yeah, because when we closed over there, we came back and the tour was already out.

[21:10] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[21:11] Joy Franz: And they asked me to come in and join the tour.

[21:14] Ben Rimalower: So it was pretty shortly after.

[21:16] Joy Franz: And was that your first tour?

[21:18] Joy Franz: I guess so.

[21:19] Ben Rimalower: And cause that, that was a pretty high profile tour, right? The big Hal Prince show and, uh, and, um, yeah, I remember I joined it in, uh, Washington.

[21:28] Ben Rimalower: In Washington.

[21:28] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[21:29] Ben Rimalower: Um, was that, was that the first time you joined the tour?

[21:32] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[21:32] Ben Rimalower: Um, what theater in Washington was it?

[21:35] Joy Franz: I don't know.

[21:35] Ben Rimalower: No, it doesn't matter.

[21:37] Joy Franz: Um, and then, uh, were you in the tour for a long time?

[21:40] Joy Franz: Yes, I stayed with it.

[21:42] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. So where, did you do that with Julie Wilson when she came in as the Joanne?

[21:46] Joy Franz: Yes.

[21:47] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Do, do you have any memories of, of her?

[21:50] Joy Franz: No, but she was awesome.

[21:52] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[21:52] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[21:54] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. No, she was great.

[21:57] Joy Franz: Great.

[21:57] Ben Rimalower: But I don't have any personal stories.

[21:59] Joy Franz: No, no.

[21:59] Ben Rimalower: Like personal stories. I have more personal stories with, uh, A Little Night Music.

[22:04] Joy Franz: Yes.

[22:05] Ben Rimalower: Okay. So that's pretty soon after then that you went and did that.

[22:09] Joy Franz: Well, A Little Night Music was after Pippin.

[22:12] Ben Rimalower: Okay.

[22:12] Joy Franz: So Pippin's in between, you went in and did you, were you the understudy from the beginnings covering Catherine? Like, did you cover Jill Klaver in it or only when the second cast?

[22:21] Joy Franz: No, Jill was first and then Betty.

[22:24] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[22:24] Joy Franz: And then I stood by for Betty.

[22:27] Ben Rimalower: Stood by for Betty and then took over.

[22:29] Joy Franz: And then, um, and then went into Night Music.

[22:32] Ben Rimalower: And then went into Night Music, auditioned for Night Music. And so, I mean, you've been, you know, in these more, um, vernacular type, you know, and Pippin is really pop music essentially. I mean, so was that, did you feel gratified to get to use your classical chops going into the Liebeslieder role?

[22:49] Joy Franz: Oh my God. Yes.

[22:50] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[22:51] Joy Franz: I mean, I had the high E.

[22:53] Ben Rimalower: Mm.

[22:54] Joy Franz: Just, unfortunately I don't have those.

[22:57] Ben Rimalower: Well.

[22:58] Joy Franz: I'm not even sure if I have a high A.

[23:02] Ben Rimalower: A G is impressive alone.

[23:05] Joy Franz: Yeah. Well, it might drop down to a G actually.

[23:08] Ben Rimalower: It will, it will take a G. I mean, I think you can play Julie Jordan with only a G, right? She doesn't have to go anywhere over the scale.

[23:14] Joy Franz: Oh no, she's not, oh, she's not really.

[23:18] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[23:19] Joy Franz: So you're, you're ready to go. You can recreate.

[23:20] Joy Franz: Oh, I was. I could do, I could, at those times I could sing anything. You know, while we bring up Julie Wilson, did you ever do any cabaret shows, any sort of concert stuff?

[23:29] Joy Franz: No, I, I didn't want to be known as a singer.

[23:36] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[23:37] Joy Franz: Yeah. And which was silly.

[23:40] Ben Rimalower: Right. Well, it's not too late.

[23:41] Joy Franz: Yeah, no.

[23:43] Ben Rimalower: We'll talk about that offline.

[23:44] Joy Franz: Oh no, no, no. I'm not letting it go, but we can get back to songwriting. I did do, uh, when, uh, I did do a night at a place up on 72nd.

[23:58] Ben Rimalower: The Triad?

[23:59] Joy Franz: Where they had many names over the years. Steve McRoz. That place up there. And that was right after, uh, Into the Woods.

[24:08] Joy Franz: And it was to raise money for AIDS. And so I did work on, oh yes, I did. I did do, uh, it was Off, Off-Broadway past Houston. There's a dinner, you know, uh, where they did a lot of cabarets.

[24:30] Ben Rimalower: Oh, all the way down.

[24:31] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[24:32] Ben Rimalower: There's West Broadway.

[24:34] Joy Franz: So there's Houston.

[24:35] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[24:35] Joy Franz: And then, you know.

[24:36] Ben Rimalower: Like in Soho.

[24:37] Joy Franz: In Soho.

[24:38] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Oh, I don't know the venue.

[24:39] Joy Franz: The name of the place, I think it was called Off-Broadway.

[24:43] Ben Rimalower: Oh, oh.

[24:44] Joy Franz: At that time, when I was in Pippin.

[24:47] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[24:48] Joy Franz: They were going to do a whole, uh, series of Broadway understudies.

[24:57] Ben Rimalower: Oh, interesting.

[24:58] Joy Franz: And, uh, I worked on mine and paid on it. And I'm the only one that had, that worked on a show, you know. And so they had me.

[25:10] Ben Rimalower: And you were the series.

[25:11] Joy Franz: And so I was there. And oh my God, I remember being down in the basement saying, what am I doing?

[25:19] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[25:19] Joy Franz: I said, I can't do this.

[25:21] Ben Rimalower: Oh no, I was petrified.

[25:22] Joy Franz: Petrified. And I said, I have to leave. This is my, my whole conversation.

[25:28] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[25:29] Joy Franz: And then I said, Joy, all your friends are out there in this past. You can't do that. You're going to have to go up. So after the first two numbers, I had so much fun.

[25:40] Ben Rimalower: Good. Well, see, that's what I'm going to remind you of.

[25:43] Joy Franz: Um, so, okay. Well, after several years in Pippin, although you went back and did more Pippins later, but after, after the initial run in Pippin, you went into a little night music and, um, you know, now you're a Sondheim veteran already at this point and having done the different incarnations of company and coming into that. Um, I, did you, you did, was there any talk of going and doing night music in London a couple of years later or, um, no, I don't think they took any.

[26:14] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[26:14] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[26:15] Joy Franz: I guess just, um, it's like the whole company got to go with company because it was an exchange program.

[26:21] Ben Rimalower: Oh, right.

[26:22] Joy Franz: Like they did with Chorus Line too.

[26:24] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[26:24] Joy Franz: Yeah. But no, not, not night music. And then, um, did you audition for Sweeney Todd? Where were you? What, what was your relationship with that?

[26:32] Joy Franz: I've never auditioned for Sweeney Todd.

[26:38] Ben Rimalower: And, um.

[26:38] Joy Franz: I'm not sure why. I don't know. I did audition for Side by Side.

[26:46] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[26:46] Joy Franz: I didn't get that.

[26:47] Ben Rimalower: But you did the show later.

[26:49] Joy Franz: Yes.

[26:50] Ben Rimalower: With Rita.

[26:51] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[26:52] Ben Rimalower: Um. Wait, what about Follies?

[26:54] Joy Franz: I guess Follies, you were just busy working.

[26:56] Ben Rimalower: Follies.

[26:58] Joy Franz: You were really in between the roles in that time.

[27:01] Joy Franz: I didn't get an audition for Follies either.

[27:04] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[27:05] Joy Franz: I don't know what I was doing or why.

[27:07] Ben Rimalower: Well, maybe you were, you were not old enough to play the old people and you were not, you know, the chorus girls to be the, yeah.

[27:13] Joy Franz: So.

[27:17] Ben Rimalower: So.

[27:18] Joy Franz: Oh God. Would love to have done that.

[27:21] Ben Rimalower: Well, I'm surprised you never, did you never do Follies anywhere?

[27:25] Joy Franz: Yes.

[27:26] Ben Rimalower: At Barrett and Stage.

[27:28] Joy Franz: Oh, wonderful.

[27:29] Ben Rimalower: Were you Phyllis?

[27:30] Joy Franz: Oh, I could see you as Solange as well. I mean, I could see you as all of those women actually.

[27:35] Joy Franz: Wow.

[27:36] Ben Rimalower: Oh my God.

[27:38] Joy Franz: But anyway.

[27:39] Ben Rimalower: So, okay.

[27:41] Joy Franz: Oh, the Barrington Stage. Did Julie Boyd direct that?

[27:43] Joy Franz: I think. Maybe like, I think I was reading about that at the time.

[27:47] Ben Rimalower: And Steve came.

[27:48] Joy Franz: I pictured him and did like, uh, McCarthy.

[27:53] Ben Rimalower: Is that right?

[27:54] Joy Franz: Jeff McCarthy.

[27:55] Ben Rimalower: Jeff.

[27:56] Joy Franz: Yeah. That was a sweet guy. He was Ben. And so the picture, I don't know, do I have that picture anywhere? I'm not sure. Anyway, so I got close, you know, and Jeff said, well, I want to be next to him. And Steve said, I've known her longer. So I was right next to him.

[28:18] Ben Rimalower: I love it.

[28:19] Joy Franz: Um, okay. Well, so what about Sunday in the Park with George? Did you, did you audition for that?

[28:22] Joy Franz: I auditioned once as a replacement for James.

[28:28] Ben Rimalower: And obviously I didn't get.

[28:29] Joy Franz: Was that your first time meeting James that audition?

[28:32] Joy Franz: I think so.

[28:33] Ben Rimalower: But he must've liked you. Cause then he cast you in Merrily.

[28:37] Joy Franz: Well, I don't think it was really up to him. I think it was Steve. Cause when I auditioned, uh, you know, it was like, he said to me, he said, I don't, this is James. Yeah. I don't know, uh, I don't know what role, you know, that you can play. And I said, I don't care. I'll play anything. Cause I needed to get out of town.

[29:00] Joy Franz: Another relationship. And I said, I don't care. I'll play anything. Yeah. So I've got to do multiple roles, small things.

[29:11] Ben Rimalower: Oh, in Merrily.

[29:13] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[29:25] Joy Franz: Mary Gordon Murray was Beth, maybe, the ex-wife? No, that was Maren Masey was the ex-wife. Actually, this one is on the Overture website. So sad, what a loss. We shared a house together.

[29:40] Ben Rimalower: Oh, really? Well, in the house, just in people's homes. Mary Gordon Murray was Gussie, the producer's wife. What a great part. That's the role that folks love. I love that character. I bet you were hysterical. So, okay. So, wait, the reporter, does that mean you were the one when he sings Franklin Shepard, Inc.?

[30:00] Joy Franz: No, I didn't get to do that part.

[30:05] Ben Rimalower: Oh, was that a male character, that reporter?

[30:12] Joy Franz: No, B.J. Ward.

[30:22] Ben Rimalower: Oh, she did that one. Yeah, she's out of California. But I've done minor, just several parts, little parts. But you loved working with James Lapine, and he obviously loved working with you.

[30:26] Joy Franz: Oh, I'd do anything with Steve. And so, and I know Steve obviously came to see that show because that was the beginning of the endless rewriting of Merrily We Roll Along.

[30:38] Ben Rimalower: Oh, yeah. Oh, no, he was there. And then how did your involvement in Into the Woods begin? Do you remember the first time you even were aware there was a show called Into the Woods?

[30:48] Joy Franz: Oh, they called me in for the reading. You know, the playwrights, the casting director had me come in for things.

[31:00] Ben Rimalower: So, you went in to audition for that?

[31:04] Joy Franz: No, I didn't audition. They just asked you to come do the reading.

[31:08] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. And you were a stepmother from the beginning.

[31:12] Joy Franz: Yeah. And was that, do you remember, was that reading like a 29-hour reading, or was it just a one-day, like, sit at a table kind of thing?

[31:22] Joy Franz: We didn't have 29-hour readings then. But there was a Stephen Holden piece in the New York Times days before Into the Woods opened on Broadway the first time. And it talked about the fact that there had been a reading at Playwrights Horizons for one day, and then a workshop at Playwrights Horizons, and then the production at the Old Globe, and then another workshop, and then Broadway.

[31:46] Ben Rimalower: That's right. But so far, nobody that I've spoken to has remembered a difference between the reading at Playwrights Horizons and the workshop at Playwrights Horizons.

[31:56] Joy Franz: I am talking to Ira Weitzman, so I'm hoping he'll...

[32:00] Ben Rimalower: That's Ira. I'm hoping he'll be able to distinguish those things.

[32:04] Joy Franz: Oh, Ira will know. Yeah. Okay, good. Because everybody's saying, oh, Ben, it was so many years ago. I don't remember.

[32:08] Ben Rimalower: No, I'm, yeah, that is correct, because... But see, I don't trust that Times article. It was by Stephen Holden, and something else he said. First of all, he said something where Sondheim and Jim, and I was like, why is he calling James O'Brien Jim? And then he said, and there were workshops on both coasts. And I'm thinking, well, the Old Globe wasn't a workshop.

[32:36] Joy Franz: No, it's not a workshop. So I started doubting whether Stephen Holden knew what a workshop was, or what he was talking about. So I don't know. We'll see what Ira says. Thank you for indulging me in this. You know, I'm just so fascinated by the...

[32:46] Ben Rimalower: I'm so fascinated by the, you know, I just want the details.

[32:51] Joy Franz: No, I love details. Well, it's like, you know, and this show now, it means so much to so many people, you know? I mean, I'm sure to you, this show means a lot to you, as does every show you did, or, you know, several of the big shows you did mean the most. But people that did Into the Woods in their high school, or, you know, it's worldwide, this tradition.

[33:13] Ben Rimalower: All over, all over this show.

[33:20] Joy Franz: Well, it's the longest running show.

[33:21] Ben Rimalower: Of Sondheim's, yeah.

[33:25] Joy Franz: Of Sondheim's. Well, I don't know about now, but yes.

[33:27] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Have you been to the revival, by the way?

[33:30] Joy Franz: We almost ran two years.

[33:33] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[33:39] Joy Franz: Oh, God, I remember when we opened, and so did Phantom. And I got to go, and I looked, and I went, oh, fuck. I did, I was like, oh, fuck.

[33:50] Ben Rimalower: I mean, isn't it insane?

[33:51] Joy Franz: This is going to be... yeah.

[33:55] Joy Franz: Into the Woods now is on its third Broadway production, its fifth New York production, and Phantom is only now about to close. I mean...

[34:05] Ben Rimalower: After all these years.

[34:07] Joy Franz: Yeah, and yet, I mean, I take Into the Woods with me on my desert island, you know.

[34:14] Ben Rimalower: But, okay, the cast of this, according to the Overture website, Betty Buckley was the witch.

[34:19] Joy Franz: Where?

[34:21] Ben Rimalower: At Playwrights Horizons, according to this Overture website. That's not how you recall it.

[34:26] Joy Franz: Wait a minute.

[34:32] Joy Franz: She did the workshop.

[34:35] Ben Rimalower: Was Betty involved in that first reading?

[34:43] Joy Franz: Question mark.

[34:44] Ben Rimalower: It says Ray Gill was the baker, so this is before Chip was involved.

[34:50] Joy Franz: Right.

[34:51] Ben Rimalower: Joanna Gleason was the baker's wife. Mary Darcy, who'd been in Sunday in the Park with George, was Cinderella.

[34:58] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[35:00] Ben Rimalower: Bob Gunton was the narrator and the steward. Do you know Bob?

[35:04] Joy Franz: Yeah, I know him, but not knowing. Do you know what I mean?

[35:07] Ben Rimalower: But, I mean, do you remember him being in it?

[35:09] Joy Franz: Probably. Robert Sean Leonard was Jack. I guess a young, not-yet-famous Robert Sean Leonard. I mean, he probably was very young. Danielle Ferland, already, was Little Red Riding Hood. Barbara Brynn, already Jack's mother. Howard McGillin.

[35:26] Joy Franz: Howard.

[35:27] Ben Rimalower: Cinderella's prince.

[35:29] Joy Franz: And R.I.P. Patrick Quinn as Rapunzel's prince.

[35:32] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, two of those.

[35:33] Joy Franz: And that was news to me about him. And then the three wolves were Howard McGillin, Betty Buckley, and Danielle Ferland. And the birds were Joy Franz and B.J. Ward. And the doves, whoa, the doves were Nancy Opal and Janna Schneider. Any of that? Nancy Opal. Oh, sorry, I missed, I skipped over when I turned pages. Obviously Joy Franz's stepmother. John Carpenter was Cinderella's father in The Mysterious Man. And Nancy Opal was Florinda, and Janna Schneider was Lucinda.

[36:11] Ben Rimalower: What?

[36:12] Joy Franz: According to this.

[36:13] Ben Rimalower: Oh, God, I don't remember those people at all.

[36:16] Joy Franz: Right? Okay, so this is one story. Is there anyone you do remember that's not on this list from either the reading or the workshop at that time? And aside from casting, what do you remember about that early incarnation before San Diego?

[36:29] Joy Franz: What do you mean?

[36:36] Joy Franz: About the material. I understand there was a lot that wasn't written yet.

[36:45] Joy Franz: Oh, yes. In San Diego, I was a wolf.

[36:54] Ben Rimalower: Right. And a bird?

[36:57] Joy Franz: I don't know what they're talking about.

[36:59] Ben Rimalower: Is that like Cinderella's birds? Did the birds have to sing or speak back to her at some point?

[37:06] Joy Franz: No, it was not me.

[37:07] Ben Rimalower: No.

[37:08] Joy Franz: Lies.

[37:09] Joy Franz: And I was a wolf.

[37:10] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[37:11] Joy Franz: I was a female wolf, and the little pig was Louise. I'm Meryl Louise.

[37:15] Ben Rimalower: Oh, cute.

[37:16] Joy Franz: And we had an adorable scene together.

[37:18] Ben Rimalower: Oh, really? What was that?

[37:19] Joy Franz: And I had this costume, so awesome. You know, buxom.

[37:24] Ben Rimalower: A sexy wolf.

[37:26] Joy Franz: Oh, I was a very sexy wolf. And anyway, and you know, I was teaching my little wolf.

[37:34] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[37:35] Joy Franz: Of my baby how to blow, you know, the house down.

[37:38] Ben Rimalower: Was that Danielle Ferland as your baby?

[37:40] Joy Franz: No, it was Meryl.

[37:42] Joy Franz: Oh, she was not the pig. She was the baby wolf.

[37:44] Ben Rimalower: I'm sorry. Yeah, sorry about that. Scratch the pig.

[37:47] Joy Franz: No pig.

[37:48] Joy Franz: I'm talking about, you know, with the pigs.

[37:51] Ben Rimalower: And Meryl Louise was your baby wolf.

[37:53] Joy Franz: She was my baby wolf. Hilarious. You know, we had so much fun, and it was hysterical. And they had to cut it.

[38:02] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[38:03] Joy Franz: Because of the time constraint.

[38:05] Ben Rimalower: But then when you went back, the revival that you went into in 2002, you did have the two wolves in that production, right?

[38:14] Joy Franz: Yeah, but we never.

[38:16] Ben Rimalower: But not that material.

[38:17] Joy Franz: No.

[38:18] Ben Rimalower: And they were both guys. It wasn't a stepmother track to be the wolf at that point.

[38:24] Joy Franz: No.

[38:25] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[38:27] Joy Franz: What two wolves are they talking about at La Jolla in San Diego?

[38:32] Joy Franz: Did you say three wolves you mentioned?

[38:34] Ben Rimalower: Well, this was, sorry, this was the reading I was talking about with Howard McGillin, Betty Buckley, Danielle Ferland as the wolves, and Joy Franz and B.J. Ward as the birds.

[38:43] Joy Franz: But the La Jolla production, who they credit as the, oh no, that's Meryl. Sorry.

[38:50] Ben Rimalower: La Jolla here, world premiere, Into the Woods, with that artwork. The cast there, John Cunningham as the narrator and one of the wolves.

[39:03] Joy Franz: He was the main wolf.

[39:05] Ben Rimalower: And the steward and the narrator.

[39:09] Joy Franz: Steward?

[39:11] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, according to Overture.com. Kim Crosby as Cinderella.

[39:17] Joy Franz: Yeah, true.

[39:18] Ben Rimalower: Ben Wright as Jack.

[39:19] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[39:20] Ben Rimalower: Chip as the baker. Joanna as the baker's wife. Joy Franz as Cinderella's stepmother slash wolf.

[39:26] Joy Franz: Yeah, that's right.

[39:27] Ben Rimalower: And Kay McClelland as Florinda slash Rapunzel.

[39:31] Joy Franz: Uh-huh.

[39:32] Ben Rimalower: Lucinda was Lauren Mitchell.

[39:35] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[39:36] Ben Rimalower: Barbara being Jack's mother. Luann Ponce, Little Red. James did remember very specifically that Danielle had not been available in San Diego. That's why Danielle didn't-

[39:45] Joy Franz: Luann.

[39:46] Ben Rimalower: No, that Danielle Ferland had not been available. Right. That's why Luann was in it, yeah. And then that's why Danielle was right away back to being Little Red. After San Diego, but that Luann did. He did remember that Luann was a replacement on Broadway and did the tour, I guess.

[40:03] Joy Franz: Right.

[40:06] Ben Rimalower: Ellen Foley as the witch. George Coe as the mysterious man slash Cinderella's father.

[40:10] Joy Franz: That's right.

[40:11] Ben Rimalower: Merle Louise as Cinderella's mother slash granny slash giant slash wolf.

[40:17] Joy Franz: I guess that's your wolf cub.

[40:19] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[40:20] Ben Rimalower: Yes. Chuck Wagner, Rapunzel's prince. Kenneth Marshall as Cinderella's prince. Rick-

[40:26] Joy Franz: I don't remember him.

[40:27] Ben Rimalower: Okwita as the footman.

[40:29] Joy Franz: Who?

[40:30] Ben Rimalower: Rick Okwita.

[40:31] Joy Franz: Oh, I have no idea.

[40:32] Ben Rimalower: Pamela Tomasetti as Snow White. Terry Kanekata as Sleeping Beauty.

[40:36] Joy Franz: Thankless roles.

[40:37] Ben Rimalower: But, so yeah, that list, that seems accurate.

[40:42] Joy Franz: That's accurate.

[40:43] Ben Rimalower: The way they list it.

[40:44] Joy Franz: But, I mean, that they better get right because that's on the record.

[40:47] Ben Rimalower: That was the-

[40:48] Joy Franz: Yeah, they better.

[40:49] Ben Rimalower: Opening production for a while. I'll have to look and see if I have any of those playbills.

[40:53] Joy Franz: Yeah, well, especially of the reading. So, if you have anything from that.

[40:57] Ben Rimalower: I wish I could see that scene.

[41:00] Joy Franz: Well, actually, my friend just sent me a video. I'll send it to you of the San Diego production.

[41:04] Ben Rimalower: What?

[41:05] Joy Franz: I don't think it's very good quality, but we'll be able to see that scene.

[41:12] Ben Rimalower: Oh, cool.

[41:13] Joy Franz: Yeah, yeah. So, that'll be fun. And then you came back to New York and you did it. And then this workshop in New York was for the producers of the Broadway production.

[41:26] Ben Rimalower: Right, yeah, pre-Broadway.

[41:27] Joy Franz: But they wanted to work on it more because it was too long.

[41:31] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[41:32] Joy Franz: And that's why to be continued because people started to leave in San Diego.

[41:37] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Have you seen the Broadway revival, the current production, or did you see it at City Center?

[41:42] Joy Franz: I tried to see it at City Center because I was out doing a play.

[41:47] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[41:48] Joy Franz: And when I got back and realized that Lauren was doing my role.

[41:54] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[41:55] Joy Franz: I wrote her. I said, you're playing what role? Question mark, question mark.

[42:05] Ben Rimalower: Well, everything was sold out.

[42:08] Joy Franz: Oh, yeah.

[42:09] Ben Rimalower: It was crazy, huh?

[42:10] Joy Franz: Couldn't even get a balcony, which was like $3.95. There was one ticket left in the orchestra for $1,000.

[42:19] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[42:20] Joy Franz: $900, I think, something.

[42:21] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[42:22] Joy Franz: People were freaking out. They didn't know it was going to move. So, I went, what the fuck?

[42:25] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[42:26] Joy Franz: That's just not fair.

[42:27] Ben Rimalower: Well, they should have invited you.

[42:28] Joy Franz: It's just unfair.

[42:29] Ben Rimalower: Well, should have, could have, would have. Did they not invite you to the Broadway opening?

[42:33] Joy Franz: No.

[42:34] Ben Rimalower: I'm mad.

[42:35] Joy Franz: No.

[42:36] Ben Rimalower: I'm going to write an angry letter.

[42:38] Joy Franz: No. So, I wrote her a note, Lauren, because I spoke to Kay, who's down in Atlanta.

[42:47] Ben Rimalower: Is that where she lives?

[42:49] Joy Franz: Yes. Married and has two children.

[42:54] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, two children. And, anyway, if she could come up and we would surprise her.

[43:02] Joy Franz: This was at Encore.

[43:03] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. And then when I realized it, oh, fuck that.

[43:06] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[43:07] Ben Rimalower: And she couldn't come. So, I wrote a lovely, funny note to Lauren and some flowers and left it at the stage door.

[43:14] Joy Franz: I see.

[43:15] Ben Rimalower: And she was so touched by that.

[43:17] Joy Franz: I'm sure.

[43:18] Ben Rimalower: Anyway, she took me to see the revival.

[43:21] Joy Franz: Oh, you went together.

[43:22] Ben Rimalower: Because she's a Tony winner.

[43:23] Joy Franz: Yes.

[43:24] Ben Rimalower: I'm a voter.

[43:25] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[43:26] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. And so, she took me out to dinner and she took me to see the revival.

[43:31] Joy Franz: And interesting.

[43:35] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. It's just that sort of second act left turn feels less left now.

[43:43] Joy Franz: It feels left?

[43:45] Ben Rimalower: Well, it feels less. It doesn't feel as much of a stretch.

[43:49] Joy Franz: As important?

[43:50] Ben Rimalower: Well, no. Because it's too delicate. It just feels very immediate.

[43:53] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[43:54] Ben Rimalower: I mean, it doesn't feel like a vision of a fever dream. It feels like reality.

[44:00] Joy Franz: Yeah. You're right. Which, no, it only makes the show more relevant.

[44:06] Joy Franz: Of course, James Lapine said, well, you know, people said, you know, there was resonance about AIDS and there was resonance about, what was the other thing he mentioned in terms of... What did he say about AIDS, really? That a lot of people were saying that the AIDS epidemic, this certainly was not his or Sondheim's intention, but that a lot of people experienced at the time that Into the Woods opened, the sort of apocalyptic time of the second act of Into the Woods being reflective of the AIDS epidemic, you know, and people who were losing friends left and right in their day-to-day lives would come see Into the Woods and feel that it felt very accessible to them. And so I was like, oh, wow, yeah, I'm sure that would be true, you know, because the bodies do pile up in act two, although not the stepmother, because she goes to a hidden kingdom.

Some people are cut off to battle giants and others are not. And as long as I can be of no help, I'm going to hide. It's such a Republican. I love it. Lauren said, Republican? Don't even say that word. Lauren said, she said, I stole your line reading. I said, what do you mean? She said, that line. And she said, and the way you did it, it works. It's very important. I was supposed to have a song.

[45:36] Joy Franz: Oh, really? There was supposed to be a song. And James, when he said, well, when we come to New York, I think you're going to have a song there. Hmm. Do you, did you ever get a sense of, based on that line? No, that never happened. Yeah. That's too bad. Yeah. Well, you know, when Jackie Hoffman was in the Adams family as the granny and she was supposed to have a song out of town, it was promised to her. It never got written. Came to Broadway. It never got written. Opened on Broadway. It never got written. So she did her cabaret show at Joe's Pub and she wrote her own granny song and she sang it. Good for her. And you've already got your title, Hidden Kingdom.

[46:14] Joy Franz: Hidden Kingdom. Yeah. Oh my God. That's very funny. Were there other, um, changes that you, uh, either disagreed with or the changes that didn't happen that you had been hoping for? You know, what, what, what, where, where were you in there? For this one? No, no, in the original production, in the development, you know, from San Diego to opening night on Broadway, you know, uh, besides the obviously great hole in act two of the stepmother song. Uh, when we were in rehearsals and, uh, Kim had a new song to sing.

[46:54] Joy Franz: On the steps of the palace. No. No one is alone. He wrote it that night and her holding the sheet music and singing, tears just burst out of my eyes because it's one of the most, I think, uh, spiritual. Yeah. Really? Very spiritual song. It's interesting to hear you say the word spiritual because, you know, I'm, I'm in a 12 step recovery. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. 11 years. Oh man. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, but I, uh, I know that, um, one of the things that a lot of people who are staunch atheists who struggle in 12 step recovery, because especially in terms of Alcoholics Anonymous, where it was written at a time where just, yeah, and Christianity was just presumed. It wasn't even meant, I think, to be prescriptive.

It was just, they didn't imagine that anyone wasn't, you know, an American Protestant. So, but now a lot of people really have a hard time, especially with that book, some of the newer programs that, you know, uh, yeah, Overeaters Anonymous or, you know, the narcotics things or sex things, you know, there's more, they're more modern cause they're the same book just rewritten later. But especially with Alcoholics Anonymous, I've heard so many people struggle and the thing that the sort of wise old timers, you know, often are able to give them that helps that gap is that, um, this idea of community and fellowship as being really what God is in a sense. And they'll even say, uh, it can mean group of drunks is G-O-D for God.

[48:42] Joy Franz: Um, and I, I've often thought, you know, and I've even noticed like when my parents, sometimes my mother especially talks about like why she still goes to synagogue. Cause I'm always just kind of like, why, who cares? Why do you do that? But she says that it's, um, it's about this sense of being together. That means something to her. And so it immediately made me think of those things when you said about, cause no one is alone is about community connection and fellowship. And, uh, that is so spiritual. It's just, I mean, that's the nature of spirituality, right? Is our relationship to each other and ourselves. And that's, that's fascinating.

[49:22] Joy Franz: Yeah. Tears just burst. Just came down. That song. I mean, I've heard, um, two moments in sort of Sondheim history get referenced in that way. And one is when he wrote, not spiritually, but when was it out of town or in previews when he wrote Send in the Clowns in a hotel room and it, you know, was immediately like there Send in the Clowns. I've heard Joanna Gleason and, um, Kevin Crosby talk about the day that you just referenced in San Diego when he wrote, no one is alone or when he gave you all, no one is alone. And it's that same, uh, sense of, you know, wow.

[50:06] Joy Franz: Yeah. Um, I can't imagine. I mean, I, I only saw the show as a finished piece for the first time where that was the, you know, the, I don't know, fuck the 11 o'clock number, but the, you know, the big anthem really at the end. Um, and, uh, I can't imagine that you were working on this show and thinking about the show and developing this show and, you know, for all this time and then to suddenly have that appear. Um, it must've, did, did it feel like everything in the show came together in that moment?

[50:37] Joy Franz: Yes. Definitely. I mean, it's so vivid. Uh, I can just, I don't know. Yeah. What, what is vivid? What do you remember?

[50:54] Joy Franz: Oh, just seeing, I just, just saw, uh, a picture just of what it was like there in San Diego. What is it? Tell me about the picture. What do you, can you describe it? Just seeing, you know, how you can lose hope, you know, I think, and she was trying to lift the spirits of, uh, Little Red, you know, and then telling her, you know, your mother's dead and, you know, and then Jack and, and how, uh, uh, the baker would say, no, you're not going to go kill him. And, you know, all of that just, it gives me goosebumps.

[51:42] Joy Franz: Yeah. That song just, uh, it's so, what's the word? Universal.

[51:52] Joy Franz: Yeah. Universal. Yeah. It hit everyone. If you're open for that, of course. Yeah. Obviously we have a lot of people that aren't even open to know what love is.

[52:04] Joy Franz: Yeah. That they could kill people. Yeah. Yeah. Very distressed what's going on in the world.

[52:12] Joy Franz: Yeah. It's really, it's really, so, okay. Tell me more back to, um, into the woods.

[52:21] Joy Franz: Okay. Uh, the show comes together, you have no one is alone and you come to New York and pretty soon after that, you know that you're going to Broadway and that there's a, uh, a workshop happening was, um, did, did you get those? Was the workshop, you already knew that you were cast for Broadway or was it, did one thing have to happen first?

[52:49] Joy Franz: No. I was it.

[52:51] Joy Franz: Yeah. Yeah. I was it from the beginning.

[52:54] Joy Franz: Yeah. Yeah. You were, you were the only stepmother. And then, um, and then what about, uh, when you came into the, the revival, uh, 20 years later, or I guess it was 15 years later. Um, what, uh, how did that come about? Had you already seen that production prior to getting the offer to go in after Pamela?

[53:14] Joy Franz: Uh, I was doing a little night music being Desiree at, uh, Riverside Bristol theater. And Dennis Kelly, he wrote me and said, Pam, Pam Myers is not going to, uh, continue with the show. I'm not answering your question though. Uh, did I see it prior?

[53:46] Joy Franz: Uh, I'm interested. Yes, I did. I saw it and, uh, like during one of the, I guess, previews very early. Was that the first production you had seen since the original or had you seen any of the various regional productions or did you go to London or anything to see it or?

[54:07] Joy Franz: No.

[54:08] Joy Franz: Um, and, uh, oh, and excuse me. I think I skipped something. Didn't you also go into the first tour?

[54:16] Joy Franz: I joined.

[54:17] Joy Franz: Yeah. I joined the first tour.

[54:20] Joy Franz: And, uh, did you do that for, for some time?

[54:24] Joy Franz: Yes. I think I did that till it closed.

[54:27] Joy Franz: Right. Correct. And do you remember who you were in that with?

[54:33] Joy Franz: Like was Charlotte Ray and like Cleo Lane still doing it or were they gone already?

[54:38] Joy Franz: I think it was Charlotte Ray after Cleo.

[54:42] Joy Franz: Cleo started the tour.

[54:44] Joy Franz: Yeah. Isn't that right? It started with Cleo as the witch and Charlotte as Jack's mother.

[54:49] Joy Franz: Oh.

[54:50] Joy Franz: And then I think Cleo was replaced.

[54:53] Joy Franz: I want to say by Betsy Joslyn.

[54:55] Joy Franz: And, uh, and I think Charlotte was replaced by Norma Mei Ling.

[55:02] Joy Franz: What?

[55:05] Joy Franz: Uh, it sounds, I know it sounds crazy.

[55:07] Joy Franz: And Norma Mei Ling was very young to be replacing Charlotte Ray, but.

[55:12] Joy Franz: Oops.

[55:15] Joy Franz: Charlotte Ray as, uh, Jack's mother?

[55:18] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[55:19] Joy Franz: Is that what you're saying?

[55:20] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[55:21] Joy Franz: No, Charlotte Ray was definitely Jack's mother, which was a small part for, you know, she was a huge TV star at that point, but that was her part.

[55:28] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[55:31] Joy Franz: Ah.

[55:33] Joy Franz: I mean, she couldn't have really played the witch.

[55:35] Joy Franz: Um.

[55:38] Joy Franz: I'm actually surprised she could play Jack's mother.

[55:40] Joy Franz: That's a hard part to sing, I think.

[55:42] Joy Franz: Ah!

[55:43] Joy Franz: I had to understudy that part in the revival.

[55:46] Joy Franz: That's difficult, right?

[55:47] Joy Franz: Are you kidding?

[55:49] Joy Franz: Uh.

[55:51] Joy Franz: I guess I was too old to cover the witch at that point.

[55:55] Joy Franz: So they had me understudy it.

[55:57] Joy Franz: Oh, and I had to go on.

[55:59] Joy Franz: Oh my God.

[56:01] Joy Franz: That is the hardest song.

[56:03] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[56:05] Joy Franz: I usually find Sondheim's songs easy to sing.

[56:09] Joy Franz: I don't know why.

[56:10] Joy Franz: Because they're intuitive.

[56:11] Joy Franz: It's so intelligent.

[56:12] Joy Franz: It follows the emotional thread.

[56:14] Joy Franz: Right.

[56:15] Joy Franz: The lyrics sit properly on the music.

[56:17] Joy Franz: It's just perfectly.

[56:18] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[56:19] Joy Franz: But Jack's was like so off the beat.

[56:23] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[56:24] Joy Franz: You wish and wait.

[56:26] Joy Franz: That's very hard.

[56:27] Joy Franz: Jack, Jack, Jack, you're a head in the sack.

[56:33] Joy Franz: Oh God.

[56:34] Joy Franz: That was hard.

[56:35] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[56:36] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[56:40] Joy Franz: So the opening cast of that first national was Cleo Lane as the witch, Charlotte Ray as Jack's mother, Mary Gordon Murray as the baker's wife, Ray Gill as the baker, Tracy Katz as Little Red, Kathleen Roe McAllen as Cinderella, Rex Robbins as the narrator and mysterious man, Chuck Wagner as the wolf and Cinderella's prince, Joanne Cunningham as Cinderella's stepmother.

[57:05] Joy Franz: Yes. I replaced her.

[57:07] Joy Franz: And then the stepsisters were Danette Cumming and Susan Gordon Clark.

[57:10] Joy Franz: Anybody else?

[57:11] Joy Franz: Norma Mei Ling as the grandmother and giant.

[57:13] Joy Franz: She was?

[57:14] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[57:15] Joy Franz: Do you know her?

[57:18] Joy Franz: We were good friends for quite a while.

[57:20] Joy Franz: Oh, I'm such a fan of her recording of her in Broadway.

[57:23] Joy Franz: Oh, yeah.

[57:24] Joy Franz: Oh, and Douglas Sills was Rapunzel's prince.

[57:28] Joy Franz: And then the replacements, Francis Ford as Jack's mother, Jill Geddes as Cinderella, Adam Grepper as the baker, Betsy Joslyn as the witch, Norma Mei Ling as Jack's mother.

[57:40] Joy Franz: Although it says Nora Mei Ling.

[57:43] Joy Franz: Isn't it Norma?

[57:45] Joy Franz: No, it's Nora.

[57:46] Joy Franz: Oh, it is Nora.

[57:47] Joy Franz: I made that up.

[57:48] Joy Franz: Marcus Olsen as the baker, Patty Ben Peterson as Cinderella.

[57:51] Joy Franz: Right.

[57:52] Joy Franz: James Clow as Jack.

[57:54] Joy Franz: That's funny.

[57:55] Joy Franz: Jonathan Hadley as Rapunzel's prince.

[57:56] Joy Franz: Right, right.

[57:57] Joy Franz: It doesn't even list you.

[57:59] Joy Franz: We've got to correct this too.

[58:01] Joy Franz: To replace.

[58:02] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[58:03] Joy Franz: It doesn't show you in the replacements.

[58:05] Joy Franz: Oh, really?

[58:06] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[58:07] Joy Franz: Well, what the fuck?

[58:08] Joy Franz: I guess they're like, they didn't even bother.

[58:10] Joy Franz: They're like, oh, she created it.

[58:11] Joy Franz: They didn't even think to put you there.

[58:13] Joy Franz: We've got a lot of updating.

[58:15] Joy Franz: And Barbara Marino as Grandmother and Giant.

[58:21] Joy Franz: So you had done that first before the revival, obviously.

[58:49] Joy Franz: That's just crazy that I don't remember her being the witch on the tour. That's bizarre for me.

[59:01] Ben Rimalower: Who do you remember as the witch?

[59:03] Joy Franz: I don't remember. You know what? I guess you don't have that many scenes with the witch.

[59:07] Ben Rimalower: I don't. But Betty, Betsy and I were friends.

[59:12] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[59:14] Ben Rimalower: I know when...

[59:15] Joy Franz: Maybe this is incorrect. Maybe there's another witch replacement that's not...

[59:20] Ben Rimalower: Oh, I wonder if the other website says something different. I didn't even think.

[59:24] Joy Franz: This is such a mystery. It's so crazy these things are not...

[59:30] Ben Rimalower: I mean, and this is even an improvement that there's even an incorrect listing.

[59:34] Joy Franz: You know, an incomplete listing.

[59:36] Ben Rimalower: Oh.

[59:37] Joy Franz: Does this show tours?

[59:39] Joy Franz: I remember definitely in the original, and they were thinking about who could cover Cinderella and the witch.

[59:54] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Cinderella and the witch.

[59:57] Joy Franz: And the witch. I don't know. I was talking with James, and I said, well, I said, there's really only one woman that I can think of who could possibly cover both, and that's Betsy Jocelyn.

[1:00:10] Ben Rimalower: Mm.

[1:00:11] Joy Franz: And that's who they hired.

[1:00:13] Ben Rimalower: That's who they hired.

[1:00:14] Joy Franz: I said, she's the only one that could do that.

[1:00:17] Ben Rimalower: Well, they must have been familiar with her from Sunday in the Park.

[1:00:20] Joy Franz: Oh, sure.

[1:00:21] Joy Franz: With Todd and everything. I mean, he didn't hire her because of my saying.

[1:00:24] Ben Rimalower: Well, maybe he did.

[1:00:25] Joy Franz: I said, there's only one woman, one actress that could cover both of those parts.

[1:00:30] Ben Rimalower: If Joy agrees, it must be correct.

[1:00:32] Joy Franz: Okay, so we've got through the national tour. You know, it's like when you join, and then it's a whirlwind, right?

[1:00:41] Joy Franz: It's a whirlwind, and you don't have enough time.

[1:00:44] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:00:45] Joy Franz: I didn't have enough time to get to know everyone.

[1:00:47] Ben Rimalower: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[1:00:49] Joy Franz: Because we're moving one week.

[1:00:52] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:00:53] Joy Franz: And another. It wasn't a sit-down.

[1:00:55] Ben Rimalower: No.

[1:00:56] Joy Franz: For a while.

[1:00:57] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:00:58] Joy Franz: So, that's it. Was the set very different from the Broadway set?

[1:01:13] Joy Franz: Well, of course, we didn't have the witch going down.

[1:01:17] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:01:18] Joy Franz: I remember my first time going on. My toe happened to bend just like that.

[1:01:24] Ben Rimalower: Ooh.

[1:01:25] Joy Franz: With a trap. So, and I'm screaming, and it's not going down.

[1:01:32] Joy Franz: I don't know why I'm not going down. I don't know why.

[1:01:36] Joy Franz: And I was getting wished off.

[1:01:39] Joy Franz: Because that's how I was in rehearsals.

[1:01:41] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, right.

[1:01:42] Joy Franz: I never had no.

[1:01:43] Ben Rimalower: No, of course.

[1:01:44] Joy Franz: There was no rehearsal time.

[1:01:45] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:01:46] Joy Franz: Of using those. And the, you know, and the chair, and all of that.

[1:01:51] Joy Franz: It was like, James said, why didn't you?

[1:01:56] Joy Franz: What happened there?

[1:01:58] Joy Franz: Well, my toe must have been just a little over. And I had no rehearsal.

[1:02:05] Joy Franz: So, I'm lucky that I was organic enough.

[1:02:08] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:02:09] Joy Franz: To get the fuck off stage.

[1:02:10] Ben Rimalower: Well, and I'm glad the system didn't just, like, grab you by the toe and pull you down.

[1:02:16] Joy Franz: Oh, they didn't want to take any chances, you know.

[1:02:21] Ben Rimalower: So, okay, now you were saying that you were in Night Music, the Bristol Theatre. And you get the call from Dennis Kelly that Pamela Myers is leaving the Broadway revival.

[1:02:32] Joy Franz: Oh, Dennis Kelly, you know, who passed.

[1:02:35] Ben Rimalower: Oh, no, I don't know him.

[1:02:36] Joy Franz: He played old Joe.

[1:02:38] Ben Rimalower: Oh, in Damn Yankees with you.

[1:02:40] Joy Franz: Yeah, with me.

[1:02:41] Ben Rimalower: Oh, lovely.

[1:02:43] Joy Franz: Yeah. Oh, when I saw the show.

[1:02:47] Joy Franz: First previews.

[1:02:48] Ben Rimalower: In previews.

[1:02:49] Joy Franz: Yeah, early previews. And I wrote both Steve and James.

[1:02:51] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:02:52] Joy Franz: And I said, I'm happy and sad. I said, some of the changes, and I said, I understand you're making it more family oriented.

[1:03:02] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[1:03:03] Joy Franz: And stuff like that. Yeah. I don't know what all I said, but something like that.

[1:03:06] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:03:07] Joy Franz: And, but I'm so happy that it's.

[1:03:11] Joy Franz: So now I'm out of town and, you know, not too far away.

[1:03:15] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:03:16] Joy Franz: And then when Dennis told me that Pam's not going to continue, get a hold of your agent and have them be on that.

[1:03:23] Joy Franz: I said, well, I'll do better than that. I said, I'm writing Steve and James.

[1:03:29] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:03:30] Joy Franz: And I had a review. Oh, one of the scenes, you know, polishing Cinderella's foot, her shoes.

[1:03:43] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:03:44] Joy Franz: You know.

[1:03:45] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:03:46] Joy Franz: A spit shine.

[1:03:49] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[1:03:50] Joy Franz: Don't you know about a spit shine?

[1:03:51] Ben Rimalower: Of course.

[1:03:52] Joy Franz: Yeah. I know you do. But James said, Joy, about that spit on the shoe.

[1:03:59] Joy Franz: Yeah. I said, well, I thought I did it very subtly. And he said, Joy, there's nothing subtle about you.

[1:04:07] Joy Franz: And I looked at him. I said, thank you. I'll take that as a compliment.

[1:04:12] Joy Franz: And so I had done a show called Bitter Tears of Petra Von Kant. I played Petra's mother.

[1:04:23] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:04:24] Joy Franz: And Petra.

[1:04:25] Ben Rimalower: Mrs. Von Kant.

[1:04:27] Joy Franz: And she has become gay.

[1:04:30] Ben Rimalower: Oh.

[1:04:31] Joy Franz: Now I want to read it.

[1:04:33] Ben Rimalower: I've heard this title for years.

[1:04:34] Joy Franz: Yeah.

[1:04:35] Joy Franz: And so in the New York Times, I have the review, I think, somewhere. There was an article that Joy Franz said that line about, oh, Petra, how could you? Said that so subtly that it was so real and poignant.

[1:05:01] Joy Franz: I cut that out. I blew it up. And I put it in James and Stephen. And I said, so you see, James, I really can do things like this.

[1:05:11] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:05:14] Joy Franz: And deliver it with subtlety. And I said, I hear that Pam's not good. I would be honored and thrilled to be a part of the show again.

[1:05:23] Joy Franz: But I can do subtle. But this is so important. I mean, I hope young people listening to this pay attention to this. Because people don't realize how much it's about that kind of initiative and proactiveness and using the relationships that you have. I mean, if you hadn't done that, you might not have gotten that job.

[1:05:39] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:05:40] Joy Franz: You may not have offered it. I mean, maybe they would have thought of you. Maybe they wouldn't have. But once you suggested it.

[1:05:44] Ben Rimalower: Steve would have thought of me.

[1:05:51] Joy Franz: But maybe you would have not. I mean, once you suggested it, you were who they wanted. But they didn't necessarily know that beforehand.

[1:05:59] Ben Rimalower: It's so interesting. People don't necessarily recognize that.

[1:06:05] Joy Franz: Because sometimes one feels, oh, am I too pushy? We're always doing this dance. But this was a Broadway show that you did because you took the initiative.

[1:06:19] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:06:22] Joy Franz: I was just thrilled. I mean, I guess it had been so many years that it wasn't probably that hard to learn it because it was just a new show to you, right?

[1:06:32] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[1:06:33] Joy Franz: So that was, I guess I had to wait for rehearsal.

[1:06:39] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:06:40] Joy Franz: But, you know, I think one of the challenges for anyone doing Into the Woods ever is because of the, I don't even want to call it a video of your original production. It's a film because James Lapine directed it. I mean, this is one of the things he pointed out to me was that with Sunday in the Park with George, it was filmed for television, but they brought in the guy that directed The Golden Girls to direct the cameras.

[1:07:03] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[1:07:03] Joy Franz: And by the time Into the Woods came along, James Lapine had been through that experience and had a little more clout being, you know, now. And having three cameras. And he directed the cameras.

[1:07:12] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[1:07:13] Joy Franz: And so that's a huge difference that the cinematography is, you know, envisioned by the librettist and director of the play, not a TV director who goes, yeah, yeah, pan out, big shot, get the star.

[1:07:32] Ben Rimalower: Right, right, right.

[1:07:33] Joy Franz: It's like James Lapine knew exactly what he wanted us to watch. And so all those performances are preserved at the absolute peak, you know, and we've, I mean, I'm 46. And I'm maybe the oldest generation that grew up watching that video. But everybody younger than me, I mean, you know, they talk about Into the Woods. They don't want to hear about Sweeney Todd or Little Night Music or Sunday in the Park with George. I mean, to them, Into the Woods is, that's the number one most important Sondheim show. And they know, we all know every moment. It's not just like, oh, I know the cast recording. It's like we know the line readings. I mean, anyone that plays the baker's wife, we all sit there going, well, Joanna got the laugh on that line.

[1:08:20] Joy Franz: You know, it's like, what are they supposed to do? You can't just copy Joanna Gleeson, but nothing else is as funny, you know.

[1:08:27] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, but you can follow the lines.

[1:08:31] Joy Franz: What are the lines?

[1:08:32] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:08:33] Joy Franz: It's written there.

[1:08:34] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:08:35] Joy Franz: You don't have to mimic somebody's, you know.

[1:08:41] Ben Rimalower: No, you don't have to mimic anybody.

[1:08:43] Joy Franz: Yeah, you got to laugh, you know. But I love that you said steal it, because I've heard so many great actors over the years use that phrase, steal it, steal it, you know. And the people that seem like they're stealing their performance are never the ones you hear say that. It's always the great actors who say steal it.

[1:09:02] Ben Rimalower: Like, explain what you mean by that.

[1:09:04] Joy Franz: I mean, you take from the best.

[1:09:08] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:09:09] Joy Franz: But you're taking it and you're making it your own.

[1:09:11] Joy Franz: I'm making it my own, but I'm still, it's like, oh, that's great. Okay, well, I'm going to steal that idea.

[1:09:19] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:09:20] Joy Franz: Because it tells the story and it also brings humor or pathos or whatever. I mean, for example, when you would go.

[1:09:30] Ben Rimalower: But it's still going to be the same, but it's from me.

[1:09:33] Joy Franz: But like when you would go on as the witch, you know, and it seems that that part was fashioned somewhat, maybe not in the initial creation. I know the songs were written way before, not last midnight, but the other stuff was written before Bernadette was even involved. But that part seems to so many of us now, so Bernadette, all those lines, you should see the nectarines, you should see my nectarines, that all feel so. How is the way in that you make that your own?

[1:10:05] Joy Franz: How is it?

[1:10:06] Joy Franz: Well, is that a gun in your pocket or are you just glad to see me? That's just very little. It's just very little.

[1:10:12] Ben Rimalower: You have to trust the lines and trust the story.

[1:10:22] Joy Franz: And it works if it's just simple.

[1:10:26] Ben Rimalower: A little what?

[1:10:29] Joy Franz: I mean, one eyebrow up.

[1:10:32] Ben Rimalower: I believed you. I thought, what is she talking about? I don't have anything in my pocket.

[1:10:37] Joy Franz: So you make it your own.

[1:10:40] Joy Franz: But that's what I always love about whether I'm coming in or creating, is that you get to bring your instincts. And is there a difference working with James Lapine? His work has such a specific vibe to it. He seems like he would be someone that would.

[1:10:59] Joy Franz: He's open to that. I mean, lots of the stuff. He was totally open for discovery and bring it. It's like, okay, well, let's not do that.

[1:11:07] Joy Franz: One time I crossed myself when I cut the toe.

[1:11:16] Ben Rimalower: That's hysterical.

[1:11:19] Joy Franz: You know, I've got my own story, background story. You know, God forgive me that I'm doing that to my own daughter because that's what we need, the money. And I have my own story, background story. And Steve did say, Joy, would you mind cutting that?

[1:11:35] Joy Franz: Crossing yourself.

[1:11:37] Ben Rimalower: Okay.

[1:11:38] Joy Franz: That's such great business, all that stuff with you, with their feet. I mean, that slays. That's always hilarious.

[1:11:44] Ben Rimalower: Was that stuff in the script to begin with or was that stuff you developed in those workshops?

[1:11:53] Joy Franz: Something that, you know, first of all, Steve asked me, he said, what happened to, you know, with the prosthesis? And you didn't stab it. That was my stuff, you know.

[1:12:06] Ben Rimalower: Wait, so that was your stuff to stick the knife in the piece of foot that's cut off?

[1:12:17] Joy Franz: Yeah, exactly.

[1:12:18] Ben Rimalower: Hilarious.

[1:12:19] Joy Franz: And sometimes it would roll forward and grab it, you know. But okay, so when you guys were doing the workshop, like did you have props and stuff?

[1:12:30] Joy Franz: No.

[1:12:31] Ben Rimalower: So you first had that props in San Diego?

[1:12:34] Joy Franz: Yes.

[1:12:35] Ben Rimalower: And so is that when you started cutting off a prosthetic heel?

[1:12:40] Joy Franz: Oh, no, that was with the music.

[1:12:43] Joy Franz: Yeah. It's all incorporated together. No, we didn't have, no, in the workshop we didn't have props.

[1:12:52] Joy Franz: So you just mimed it.

[1:12:53] Ben Rimalower: Uh-huh.

[1:12:54] Joy Franz: Yeah. Uh, uh, uh, uh, yeah.

[1:12:57] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:13:02] Joy Franz: Oh, it was so much fun.

[1:13:04] Ben Rimalower: Thank you for listening to Giants in the Sky, how Sondheim and Lapine went into the woods on the Broadway Podcast Network. Look out for episode 15 with Chuck Wagner, the original Rapunzel's prince.