This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Ben Rimalower: Broadway Podcast Network presents Giants in the Sky: How Sondheim and Lapine Went Into the Woods with me, Ben Rimalower.

[0:09] Ben Rimalower: Today's guest, John Cameron Mitchell, Jack on the demo tracks.

[0:13] John Cameron Mitchell: Once upon a time.

[0:19] John Cameron Mitchell: I sang the role of Jack in the demo tracks recorded for a never-released Into the Woods CD-ROM and later included on the reissued Broadway cast recording and the Stephen Sondheim The Story So Far box set.

[0:33] John Cameron Mitchell: Of course, I am known far and wide for writing and starring in the iconic musical Hedwig and the Angry Inch off Broadway in 1998 and on Broadway in 2015 in the Tony-winning production, which opened with Neil Patrick Harris, and in honor of which I was awarded a special Tony.

[0:52] John Cameron Mitchell: My other Broadway credits include The Secret Garden, Six Degrees of Separation, and Big River, as well as the original off-Broadway production of Michael John LaChiusa's Hello Again.

[1:03] John Cameron Mitchell: I have appeared in numerous movies and television shows and directed the films How to Talk to Girls at Parties, Rabbit Hole, Short Bus, and The Hedwig and the Angry Inch, in which I played the title role.

[1:14] John Cameron Mitchell: I wrote and directed the scripted podcast series Anthem Homunculus, as well as the upcoming Cancellation Island.

[1:24] Ben Rimalower: I don't know if you read or if you're aware of James Lapine wrote this book two years ago, putting it together about the making of Sunday in the Park with George.

[1:34] Ben Rimalower: Um, and he had these conversations with everyone that worked on the show in any way, and then he chronicled the development, weaving them all together, and it was so fascinating.

[1:44] Ben Rimalower: Um, and he said he's not doing that for Into the Woods, which is why I'm doing this because I have so many questions, and it's all fading away.

[1:52] Ben Rimalower: Decades ago, nobody remembers anything about who was in what reading or how many weeks or days or hours they rehearsed or what songs were in it.

[2:01] Ben Rimalower: I mean, as a matter of fact, these incredible demos that I've come across, um, of which you recorded this early "Giants in the Sky."

[2:09] Ben Rimalower: I have not yet been able to find one person who can even tell me when, why, or for whom these were recorded, including James Lapine and Paul Ford and Paul Geminiani and other cast members, and so I'm your hope.

[2:26] John Cameron Mitchell: Well, what's your first question?

[2:29] Ben Rimalower: Well, when did you record those?

[2:32] John Cameron Mitchell: Um, I believe it was when I was doing The Secret Garden.

[2:39] John Cameron Mitchell: Hmm.

[2:40] John Cameron Mitchell: So that would have been like ninety-one, maybe ninety-two.

[2:44] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[2:45] John Cameron Mitchell: Um, and there were a couple of other people doing the demos.

[2:55] John Cameron Mitchell: Um, what's that one called? Bam Crunch or something?

[3:01] Ben Rimalower: Boom Crunch, yeah, Maureen Moore.

[3:03] John Cameron Mitchell: Boom Crunch.

[3:04] John Cameron Mitchell: Maureen Moore, who I did Big River with.

[3:09] John Cameron Mitchell: Um, who else did those groups?

[3:14] John Cameron Mitchell: George Lee Andrews.

[3:17] Ben Rimalower: George Lee Andrews?

[3:18] John Cameron Mitchell: Yeah, and Betsy Jocelyn.

[3:21] Ben Rimalower: Yes, Betsy was in The Secret Garden, I believe.

[3:26] John Cameron Mitchell: Um, I didn't know George.

[3:28] Ben Rimalower: Was she in that?

[3:29] John Cameron Mitchell: I don't think she was.

[3:30] John Cameron Mitchell: Let me look that up.

[3:32] John Cameron Mitchell: Um, that's Betsy Just Mont.

[3:34] John Cameron Mitchell: I mean, she was in a lot of stuff, um, including being Bernadette's um understudy or standby in Into the Woods.

[3:44] Ben Rimalower: Oh.

[3:46] John Cameron Mitchell: Yeah.

[3:46] John Cameron Mitchell: I just I guess I only knew Maureen, uh, who's in Big River, I believe, with me.

[3:53] John Cameron Mitchell: Yeah, well, it was such an honor, of course.

[3:56] John Cameron Mitchell: I was told that we were told that it was for a CD-ROM.

[4:00] Ben Rimalower: Remember those?

[4:02] John Cameron Mitchell: Yeah, wait, so this is so people can have Into the Woods on their computer?

[4:06] John Cameron Mitchell: What a CD-ROM was a CD you could put in your computer, and you could also it was visuals as well.

[4:15] Ben Rimalower: Oh.

[4:16] John Cameron Mitchell: Yeah, you can look up, uh, it was never made, uh, but it was recorded for that.

[4:21] John Cameron Mitchell: So Paul Geminiani recorded us with Stephen, and it was just piano, you know, you heard them.

[4:33] John Cameron Mitchell: And it was so exciting, of course, you know, the pinnacle of pinnacle two pinnacles of musical theater.

[4:41] John Cameron Mitchell: And I hit a B-flat, uh, which I haven't hit before or since, you know, it was, you know, you hit the note first, Steve, and you hold it.

[4:53] John Cameron Mitchell: Um, and afterwards he actually said, "Well, where were you when we were casting this originally?" I said, "Well, as a matter of fact, I was in LA and I auditioned for this and then got called back in LA and James Lapine was in LA and I did a good audition for him."

[5:14] John Cameron Mitchell: I mean, he was not the easiest person to audition for.

[5:17] John Cameron Mitchell: I mean, you know, he's a brilliant director, but he doesn't always have the bedside manner of a director that you want, you know.

[5:25] John Cameron Mitchell: Like I'm I don't know if he was an actor, but I came out of acting, so I'm very, very careful of how I treat my actors, especially in auditions, because it's a very delicate time.

[5:35] John Cameron Mitchell: And he did the cardinal sin, which was that was good.

[5:43] John Cameron Mitchell: "Sing it to this tape player, it's for Steve. Do it again." And I'm like, are you kidding me?

[5:50] John Cameron Mitchell: And of course I choked.

[5:52] John Cameron Mitchell: Um, that's not what you do for your callback.

[5:57] John Cameron Mitchell: You know, tastefully and secretly record it and then you pass it on, and then if you need another audition with Steve, you do it.

[6:03] John Cameron Mitchell: So I completely choked and, of course, didn't get the role, and um, but then later I was able to, you know, minorly rectify that by doing the early version of "Giants in the Sky," which I love doing, and I even put myself on YouTube with it back then because I was so proud of it because it actually didn't come out till the deluxe edition CD of the original recording came out, and those were the bonus tracks, right?

[6:41] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, and so the idea was to then film this, but then that never happened, so there would have been video content or animation, or what would it have been?

[6:51] John Cameron Mitchell: No, I don't think we were being videotaped.

[6:53] John Cameron Mitchell: I think there was just some you should do a little research into CD-ROMs because I never had one, but I think it was just like, you know, a menu would come up and you can there would maybe just be some written historical things and then extra songs.

[7:08] John Cameron Mitchell: It was pretty crude, you know, because it was the nineties, so there wasn't much video, uh, I don't think I don't remember video, yeah, but um, yeah, so it was a special thing and Steve was always super nice to me, you know, when I first arrived in New York and was doing, uh, well I did Big River earlier but then when I came back to do Six Degrees and um and The Secret Garden and then Hello Again I, you know, I was a little bit of a, you know, new kid in town and so I, you know, had interactions with the greats and I remember Arthur Lawrence wanted to cast me in something that he wrote that I didn't think was very good so I didn't say that but I just passed who the hell is this punk um and I never got to work with Steve, you know, most of his roles are for older people except for maybe Merrily We Roll Along so um and a couple song, you know, a couple of uh Sweeney Todd characters but I wasn't quite the I feel you Joanna type I couldn't quite sing that way but I, you know, of course admired him and when he came to Hedwig and as he told me he hated it but he could not like something and it never felt like an insult because he was so clear and so specific about it.

[8:49] John Cameron Mitchell: It was never personal.

[8:51] John Cameron Mitchell: He was just like, "It's not my kind of music, John."

[8:54] John Cameron Mitchell: You know, and it was too loud.

[8:55] John Cameron Mitchell: And I'm like, I hear you.

[8:57] John Cameron Mitchell: I hear you.

[8:57] John Cameron Mitchell: I think, you know, if you were able to, uh, move past those things, you might see some of the things that I learned from you, you know.

[9:07] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[9:07] John Cameron Mitchell: Um, certainly, uh, you know, admired his wit.

[9:14] John Cameron Mitchell: And when I started writing songs later, I was definitely thinking about him a lot, uh, since I was more involved with lyrics and melody rather than the uh music.

[9:26] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[9:27] John Cameron Mitchell: Um, so it would never hurt my feelings when he was like, didn't like it.

[9:32] John Cameron Mitchell: Um, you know, later, uh, you know, I would have liked to talk to him because I just played, you know, I just did Sandman, where I got to, and the reason I did it was because the character gets to sing songs from Gypsy as Mama Rose, and I had never, which was my favorite, probably my favorite musical, and of course, uh, seeing Patty was a revelation.

[10:01] John Cameron Mitchell: I think probably Patty and Cynthia Erivo in Color Purple are the two greatest musical performances I ever seen.

[10:09] Ben Rimalower: Agreed 100%, John.

[10:11] John Cameron Mitchell: Yeah, very different, but both very powerful.

[10:15] John Cameron Mitchell: And, uh, happily got to work with both of them on my, uh, musical podcast series, Anthem Homunculus.

[10:23] John Cameron Mitchell: Yeah, yeah, and write songs for Patty and for Cynthia, and then I got to do some Gypsy stuff than Sandman and I recorded all of Rose's turn, but never they only use like 10 seconds.

[10:39] John Cameron Mitchell: So I know, but I sent it to Patty, and she's like, give me the thumbs up.

[10:45] John Cameron Mitchell: So maybe someday, someday I'll get to play Mama Rose.

[10:50] Ben Rimalower: Yes, yes.

[10:51] Ben Rimalower: Well, okay. So just going back to your audition for Into the Woods when you were in LA, was this for the San Diego production at the Old Globe?

[11:01] John Cameron Mitchell: Um, is that the one that ended up on Broadway?

[11:06] John Cameron Mitchell: Um, it was James.

[11:07] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, it was James.

[11:08] John Cameron Mitchell: It just it was the different cast.

[11:10] John Cameron Mitchell: The first, yeah.

[11:12] John Cameron Mitchell: I guess that was the out-of-town tryout in a way, right?

[11:16] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[11:16] John Cameron Mitchell: So that was probably it because I guess at that time they would for bigger things they would, uh, Broadway things they would also audition in LA.

[11:27] Ben Rimalower: Well, because they were in California.

[11:30] John Cameron Mitchell: I mean, I was curious also because of the Big River connection.

[11:33] John Cameron Mitchell: I mean, that was, um, not the Old Globe, right?

[11:36] John Cameron Mitchell: It was the La Jolla Playhouse, I believe that.

[11:39] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[11:39] John Cameron Mitchell: And did you do that out of town also?

[11:42] John Cameron Mitchell: No, I was actually in college then, and I this is another unusual thing that would never happen today, but I was playing Huck Finn in a different production, organic theater production at the Goodman in '85.

[11:58] John Cameron Mitchell: And it got a lot of good, you know, attention.

[12:01] John Cameron Mitchell: And I was on the cover of American Theater or something with Meeshak Taylor, who played Jim, who's my mentor.

[12:07] John Cameron Mitchell: From designer, love him.

[12:09] Ben Rimalower: Yes, yeah.

[12:10] John Cameron Mitchell: He was a Chicago mammoth guy way back.

[12:13] John Cameron Mitchell: And, um, so an agent got a hold of me.

[12:18] John Cameron Mitchell: I don't know how.

[12:20] John Cameron Mitchell: Um, named Sheldon Lubliner, which is a great agent name.

[12:26] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[12:26] John Cameron Mitchell: And he had a company called the News and Entertainment Agency.

[12:30] John Cameron Mitchell: And I felt like there were some good actors and then a couple of weathermen from Chief Local TV.

[12:36] John Cameron Mitchell: I was like, that's that's my first agent.

[12:40] John Cameron Mitchell: Um, and they got a hold of me from that cover of American Theater and said, "Oh, there's Big River just opened, but they've lost their understudy for Huck and Tom Sawyer and 30 I found out 35 other roles."

[12:57] John Cameron Mitchell: And but can you imagine an agent kind of trying to get a hold of someone before email to play an understudy?

[13:04] John Cameron Mitchell: You know, it was just crazy.

[13:06] John Cameron Mitchell: But I got in, I flew in and got the role before, and I didn't even graduate from Northwestern and suddenly had this gig on Broadway in 1985 with the and went to the Tonys and we won Best Musical.

[13:22] Ben Rimalower: I love the music in that, Roger Miller.

[13:25] John Cameron Mitchell: Des McAnuff, Des McAnuff was also didn't quite have a bedside manner that I wished he had.

[13:33] John Cameron Mitchell: And he was I remember doing it.

[13:37] John Cameron Mitchell: I was very, you know, I was very fancy coming from Northwestern and working with Frank Galotti.

[13:41] John Cameron Mitchell: And you know, I knew Huck Finn because it was my third production of it, and I said, I don't know if this transition here really makes sense.

[13:50] John Cameron Mitchell: This is not, uh, you know, an understudy rehearsal, and he just said, "John, just do what the guy's doing on stage," and I clammed up and went back to my not dressing room because it was such a big cast.

[14:04] John Cameron Mitchell: The understudies had to hang out at the Chinese restaurant next door.

[14:09] Ben Rimalower: What?

[14:10] John Cameron Mitchell: During the show.

[14:12] John Cameron Mitchell: It was called Hunan Eaters.

[14:19] John Cameron Mitchell: And you know, that's where I realized that understudies sometimes have drinking problems because they're just sitting around, you know, waiting for a fire to put out.

[14:29] John Cameron Mitchell: And literally right around the corner on 48th and 8th was the famous fire station where the male hustlers would stand outside along with the firemen, everybody waiting for a fire to put out.

[14:48] John Cameron Mitchell: It was, you know, the old Times Square. And I was like, oh my God. And you know, everything was just so crazy. And um, I was in New York and you know, kind of being dissed and kind of had a good job, and you know, and it was and then I finally went on. The lovely Daniel Jenkins went on vacation, and I went on for him for a week, and I had just got him a movie before uh right before that. And the Dodgers were the producers, all the all the makers of you know, I loved all the understudies and actors, and Renee Oberg and Roy was a doll. He was always giving presents to people. He was such a good guy, and Bob Gunton and Ron Richardson, and it was you know, wonderful Patty Cohen hour, who I worshipped.

[15:37] John Cameron Mitchell: Um, but they didn't give me a put-in rehearsal, which is a rehearsal that the understudy gets so they can finally work on the set with the costumes and props. And we had a mechanical raft, and because I was leaving, they didn't tell me this, but I was like, when's it put in? And they're like, Oh, you're not getting one for the lead, you know, with a mechanical raft because I was leaving the show anyway and they didn't want to spend the money. But they didn't tell me this. So I was furious. So I was furious about all of these things, you know, even though I loved the singing the songs and I love the cast.

[16:11] John Cameron Mitchell: And I went on and kind of did it the way I wanted without messing up the other actors. It just kind of blew it out. And I was like, Well, I'm leaving anyway. I'm just gonna do it the way I want to. And they were all there that first night, and the producers and desk were like, Do you want to take over the role? I was like, No, thank you. Goodbye. And so I believe I met Chita Rivera that night. She was the first celebrity that came to see me on Broadway, and she was so kind. And so it was a it was like a way into New York, but not the best experience, you know.

[16:49] John Cameron Mitchell: But of course, so exciting to finally play that role in singing those songs. Um, the woods, by the way, the Dodgers, yes, and also of uh Secret Garden, yeah, Jersey Boys. Um, not always the the most actor friendly. Well, so but here's the question. I mean, you say, Oh, you wouldn't have been right for Sondheim stuff, you know. I feel you, Joanna, but like, I mean, there you were playing these juvenile roles, right? Isn't that what they call it? Like, um, yeah, and that Sweeney Todd, um uh Toby that sings not while I'm around, that seems like that would have been a natural for you at that time.

[17:28] John Cameron Mitchell: Um, I guess so, yeah. I mean, I wasn't really around. Yeah, I guess I wasn't really around at the or work or free at the time when I might have, you know, been up for that, but I wasn't, you know, I didn't feel as comfortable with my voice um at that time. Though I I realized listening back, I actually had a pretty good voice. I just had never studied. So I didn't know what, you know, I just when things were a bit more operatic, like Sweeney Todd or Candide or something, I was a little bit like, oh God, I can't do that. I can sing country or rock or something folky stuff, you know.

[18:09] John Cameron Mitchell: Um, I guess but it wasn't that more of a uh Yeah, it was a more folky, you know, it was more like Pippin or something, you know. And you know, I grew up on Fosse and you know, Ames Behaven and learned more about Sondheim once I got to New York 'cause I, you know, seeing that first production was around the same time as Big River was it was fantastic. You know, it was just a wonderful chip sign and and uh Bernadette and it was just magical, you know, I loved that show.

[18:44] John Cameron Mitchell: And but you know, I I was a musical person who didn't necessarily like a lot of musicals, you know, which is what led to Hedwig in a way. It's like I love the form, but it I felt like sometimes they would just be too corny or too samey. And um, of course Sondheim was always trying to push it and people like Michael John LaChiusa were too as well. I really admired those so-called, you know, think of them as more the underground, you know composers, even though you know Sondheim couldn't be more overground, but he wrote like a yeah.

[19:23] John Cameron Mitchell: He wrote like an artist rather than a than a showman. Did you uh Bill Finn was also, you know pretty important at that time did you ever do any Bill Finn stuff I didn't I didn't I was you know close with Alison Fraser who did um and I met him a couple of times yeah but I didn't no there was no opportunity there um so I didn't necessarily go down the musical path you know after Secret Garden um except with Hedwig.

[19:27] John Cameron Mitchell: Yes of course well legendarily but do you um have you ever had any interest in directing a musical on stage of course yes and I certainly was up for a couple I want I really wanted to do this Britney Spears one because this yeah which I don't know when it's coming in it was supposed to during COVID and it was, you know, it was a jukebox musical for sure but this guy wrote a great book it was hilarious.

[20:28] John Cameron Mitchell: That's wonderful yeah it was very um feminist you know it was all about this the uh the Disney princesses were were all uh banding together and and going on strike till they could tell their own story oh wow yeah and that it was you know it didn't have a great name once upon a one more time but yeah it was really really funny and I thought the songs worked with it.

[20:54] John Cameron Mitchell: Um, I'm assuming it'll still be coming into town. So that was something but I didn't I you know they were very nice, but they were like, I think we need a female director, you know. Uh if it was a more female centric show, and I'm like, well, I'm as female as many of my female friends, but you know, whatever.

[21:13] John Cameron Mitchell: Um, and then yeah, I mean, there were other periodically, there's a good play or musical that you know I I try to do, but it as you know, it you know, Broadway tends to be a lot of uh revivals, and I'm not always interested in revisiting some of these things. I want new stuff, and um it's hard to make a musical. You know, I'm working, uh it takes a long time, and people who are from outside the musical world don't realize how long it takes.

[21:46] John Cameron Mitchell: People like rock stars and stuff, they like, but I wrote the songs. I'm like, well, you have to kind of rewrite them, and you have to keep working on it. And people like Elton John know that. Yeah, you know, and Jake Shears and people who are now they know what that is, but um a lot don't have the patience, you know.

[22:04] John Cameron Mitchell: And I'm working with Linda Perry. Uh do you know her? She was the singer songwriter for 4 Non Blondes, you know, that's um yeah. She and she wrote, you know, the you know, some greats for other great songs for other people, like you are beautiful, no matter what they say.

[22:24] John Cameron Mitchell: Oh wow, yeah. She's she's uh my generation, you know, awesome rock and roll dyke. She's like, John, people think I'm an old punk rocker, but I love musicals. Let's make a musical TV series.

[22:40] John Cameron Mitchell: So that's what we're working on now, which is kind of a uh modern day Jesus who's a rock star. Wow. Yeah, and we've already written uh six songs.

[22:50] John Cameron Mitchell: So we uh we're just negotiating for a development deal right now uh for one of the streamers, and um I don't know, I'm afraid they're they're gonna chicken out about it, but it's such a good piece we've been developing, and um yeah, so I I also like doing musicals in other forms film, television, Anthem Homunculus was a you know, a 10 episode uh podcast series with Glenn Close, Patty LuPone, Cynthia Erivo, Denis O'Hare, Marion Cotillard.

[23:27] John Cameron Mitchell: You know, it was just spectacular cast that and it was very easy for them because you know they just have to do a few days work and get the whole season in there.

[23:37] John Cameron Mitchell: Yeah. So I'm doing another podcast series next year. It's not as musical in this season, but it it's called Cancellation Island.

[23:47] John Cameron Mitchell: Oh and yeah, and it's where all the cancel people go. Amazing. Well, I I am so looking forward to that, as I am everything that you ever touch.

[23:57] Ben Rimalower: Um I could do 20 podcasts about about all of your work. I mean, I can't believe the beginning of the conversation I didn't even remember how much I loved Hello Again, and just obsessively at least to listen to that, especially Yeah, you know.

[24:10] John Cameron Mitchell: Yeah, and I really like what Todd Almond did with the music and the film. I didn't see the film, I just heard the recording, and I thought he did a great job with modernizing it, uh orchestrating it differently.

[24:21] John Cameron Mitchell: Uh, but that was a great experience with um Graciela Daniele and Michael John LaChiusa, and you know, Donna Murphy, and just so many greats, you know, uh Malcolm Getz and John Dossett.

[24:36] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, great cast.

[24:37] John Cameron Mitchell: Yeah. Well, uh, I mean, you I think that the musical theater uh is uh derelict in recognizing what you know how I think maybe the musical theater in general thinks you're too cool for it when actually it needs to embrace you as it's actually like greatest artist of you know 50 years or whatever and no that's very sweet of you.

[25:00] John Cameron Mitchell: I I love the form I do want to break you know I want to break up the scar tissue and and but a musical is really just songs and story and you can do whatever you want with it.

[25:12] John Cameron Mitchell: You know I saw I saw Robert Wilson piece called the Black Rider that he did with Tom Waits and William Burroughs and it was as much a musical as as Gypsy and you know stranger and more lip but it was it it inspired me you know that as well as I'd say uh Sandra Bernhardt's Without You I'm Nothing you know other people who use music in a different way just reminds you that it's a wide open form and uh I can love traditional things like Kimberly Akimbo but I can also love you know when someone's exploding uh a form and and seeing where it lands.

[25:57] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Did you like A Strange Loop?

[26:00] John Cameron Mitchell: I did I really liked it a lot.

[26:03] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[26:03] John Cameron Mitchell: Um I'm excited to see what his next thing is you know because it you know I think our first things I mean that's not his first but you know early things tend to be more about you, and then later things tend to be about other people.

[26:18] John Cameron Mitchell: You know, you you always have your your little autobiography um thing, and Anthem was that for me. That was later.

[26:26] John Cameron Mitchell: Um, but then it's time to write out about other stuff, you know. And my favorite, you know, dictum for writing is Tony Morrison's, you know, with her young students. She's like, you will not write about yourself.

[26:41] John Cameron Mitchell: You uh at first. That that's for later. You're gonna write when you know yourself, but right now you're gonna write from the point of view of people you know nothing about.

[26:52] John Cameron Mitchell: Uh, because that's the beginning of empathy, which is not very today. You know, today stay in your lane, tell your own story to the point of like, oh god, are we all is it only autobiographies that are illegal now? It's like you, you know, it's like I want you're bringing your emotional autobiography to everything, but you also, you know, is imagination, it's fiction, it's not memoir, you know, and you can do that with great um, you can tell a fictional character story with great uh sensitivity and informing yourself about worlds you don't know about, and you can do it very lazily, and that's when I think people start getting pissed off is a kind of like uh, you know, appropriation, which is closer to plagiarism than being influenced by, you know, I'm influenced by you know Mavis Staples and David Bowie, and I am I allowed to write a black character in Anthem for Cynthia Erivo.

[27:54] John Cameron Mitchell: Some would say no, and I would say yes, because we we work together on all of you know, with all my actors, they're partners, and we make something beautiful together.

[28:06] John Cameron Mitchell: And you pull it off, so that's the proof is in the pudding. John, thank you so so so so much.

[28:11] John Cameron Mitchell: Uh I really you're welcome.

[28:15] John Cameron Mitchell: You're welcome, Ben.

[28:17] John Cameron Mitchell: Have happy holidays and and uh I hope I see you very soon.

[28:26] Ben Rimalower: Thank you for listening to Giants in the Sky, how Sondheim and Lapine went into the woods on the Broadway Podcast Network. Look out for episode eighteen with Lar Lubovitch, the original choreographer.