This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Ben Rimalower: Broadway Podcast Network presents Giants in the Sky: How Sondheim and Lapine Went Into the Woods with me, Ben Rimalower.

[0:09] Ben Rimalower: Today's guest, Ellen Foley, the witch in both the Old Globe production and the closing Broadway cast.

[0:15] Ben Rimalower: Once upon a time.

[0:20] Ben Rimalower: Ellen Foley created the role of The Witch in Into the Woods at the Old Globe in San Diego before starring in the original production's final Broadway company.

[0:29] Ben Rimalower: Her other Broadway credits include Hair and Me and My Girl, as well as Off-Broadway's Beehive.

[0:35] Ben Rimalower: Her many film and television credits include starring on the classic 1980s sitcom Night Court.

[0:41] Ben Rimalower: And she is probably best known for her rock and roll recordings, especially her duet with Meatloaf on Paradise by the Dashboard Lights on his iconic Bat Out of Hell album composed by Jim Steinman.

[0:54] Ben Rimalower: You gotta have an extremely unique perspective on this show, having been involved in this, you know, nascent phase and then coming back at the very end, and you know, have I think it's like when you watch a kid grow up or, you know, every day a little bit at a time, it's hard to see the difference. But having that gap in between, you must really have just one of a kind take on it.

[1:22] Ellen Foley: It's true.

[1:22] Ellen Foley: Well, I mean with a kid, if the child, you know, if you have them all the time and see their development, it's one thing. But if, you know, if somebody has a baby and then you go back two years later and see the changes, it's like that.

[1:42] Ellen Foley: But I always tell this story that Sondheim, you know, I managed to close the show in New York. I wouldn't have put it that way. He single-handedly came and destroyed the whole thing for gifts he gave everybody, you know, the score, the book, and he wrote in it that I was his alpha and the omega.

[1:54] Ben Rimalower: Oh wow.

[1:54] Ellen Foley: And the end. Isn't that cool? Yes, I was the alpha and the omega.

[1:54] Ellen Foley: That is extremely cool. I know. I just feel very lucky because I think I did have a place in his mind, say in some corner of his mind, and that's pretty meaningful.

[2:31] Ben Rimalower: I'm sure it is. So give me just a little bit about what Sondheim meant to you before you got this job, you know, because I assume as an up-and-coming actor and singer in New York theater that you had seen shows of his and I don't, you know, Sweeney or Company or Sunday in the Park, you know, were you nerd like so many of us already?

[2:31] Ellen Foley: Well, I'll tell you, I had come out of being a rock chick for so many years that I hadn't, I was sort of ignorant. I mean, I did, there's an English rock star named Ian Hunter, and he had played in his band Mott the Hoople at the theater where Sweeney was, so I remember him taking me to see Sweeney Todd, and I don't know, it didn't make a huge impact on me.

[3:31] Ellen Foley: So I came into the whole thing, I don't know, a little nonplussed.

[3:41] Ellen Foley: Okay, it's Sondheim, yeah, fine. But that was my introduction, being there in the same room with him and experiencing all this and being able to make it a part of me, which was like I was hit by a tsunami, you know what I'm saying?

[4:00] Ellen Foley: But since then, I mean, Sweeney Todd, I could listen to it just on a loop forever. To me, it's incredible.

[4:14] Ellen Foley: So I mean that just to be honest, you know, I wasn't that much, I wasn't a huge theater nerd.

[4:22] Ben Rimalower: Well, honestly, for everything I've heard about Sondheim, I'm sure he liked that about you. And then also it seems like it was what made you get the part because, I mean, they talk about in the casting people I've talked to and Lapine that, you know, they kept saying, "Well, what about Debbie Harry? What about Pat Benatar?" And then they were the people that, you know, it was a nice idea, but they weren't really, you know, skilled or trained in the way to do everything else that it required. And then somebody that was like this sort of dream, you know, combination of like an actual rock and roll person who was also an actual actor.

[5:04] Ellen Foley: Yes, Sondheim said to me when we were working on the rap, you know, "Beans, beans, nothing but beans," he said, yeah, he said somebody had come in to audition and she was a rapper. So I guess they had seen a lot of people, real out-of-the-box people. And she inspired him to do this. You know, so it was Sondheim's first rap. I don't know if it was his first and last rap, but that's, you know, I remember when I did it in New York, David, oh now I forgot his name, the producer, he had a big long beard, you know who I'm talking about? Not producer of, oh, but Michael David.

[5:29] Ellen Foley: Michael David, thank you. He said to me, "You're like a female Mick Jagger," which is the best thing anybody could ever say to me because that's been my goal for my entire life. So yeah, I mean, I guess if that they, I never told me they were talking about rock singers to do it, but hey, I guess maybe I did fulfill that slot.

[5:29] Ben Rimalower: So tell me, when you got, how did this come into your life? Was it just your agent said, "Oh, they want to see you for this show in San Diego"?

[5:29] Ellen Foley: Yes, and I remember I went and I think I sang, um, uh, God, I'm sorry, I'm having one of those senior moments. Well, I sang one of the ballads, but then I sang "Everybody Says Don't," and in the middle of it, I forgot it because, you know, it's a really fast song, "Everybody Says Don't," and I like forgot it, and I'm like, "Fuck, God!" And Sondheim was laughing as he just loved it that there was somebody up there who wasn't perfect and who would curse, and you know, so that was fun. But, oh, I'm sorry, um, what song to the ballad? It'll come to me like another Sondheim ballad from a different Sondheim show.

[7:21] Ellen Foley: Yeah, from, uh, I did it so many times. Anyway, it'll come to this. A couple weeks ago, I was in Cleveland because it's the 45th anniversary of the Bat Out of Hell album. So we were in this club, you know, I was on a panel, and we were in a club, you know, and it was, you know, they'd ask questions, and I was talking about Meatloaf and Jim Steinman, and I said, you know, they were, you know, Meatloaf was very volatile, and Jim was, I couldn't think of the word, and people were shouting out, "Was he cold? Was he elite?" I said, "No, no, that's not right." And then like four minutes later, I shout out, "Passive-aggressive." So that's what's happening right now. I will remember the song.

[8:11] Ellen Foley: That will image so got the job. Um, yeah, and you guys rehearsed in New York City.

[8:15] Ben Rimalower: Rehearsed in New York, you know, for a lot of it, down in West Bank, I think, down there, West Beth down in the village.

[8:29] Ellen Foley: And I mean, I was, I'm looking at this website that has a song list from the Old Globe production, and it seems like there was a lot that they had written for the witch.

[8:44] Ellen Foley: Yes.

[8:44] Ellen Foley: Um, I guess "Boom Crunch" was not in it.

[8:48] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[8:49] Ellen Foley: But, um, but you know, "Boom Crunch" was in it, but there was no "Last Midnight" that replaced "Midnight."

[8:56] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[8:57] Ellen Foley: Yeah, yeah.

[8:58] Ben Rimalower: And but the most important thing to me in the song I still sing is, you know, "Stay With Me," which is so impactful and only got better and better singing it when I had children.

[9:13] Ellen Foley: Oh, I know. Um, and you know, I remember on Broadway, "Last Midnight" and "Boom Crunch," Sondheim told me I sang it like a Japanese ghost.

[9:30] Ellen Foley: I have the greatest Sondheim quotes. I could just die right now, right? I mean, you sound like a Japan because I was, it's "Last Midnight."

[9:41] Ellen Foley: Yeah, you know, like somebody from the No theater or something.

[9:47] Ben Rimalower: Cool.

[9:48] Ellen Foley: Alrighty.

[9:52] Ellen Foley: Um, so but "Stay With Me" you did not have in San Diego.

[9:56] Ben Rimalower: Oh, I didn't?

[9:57] Ellen Foley: No.

[9:58] Ben Rimalower: Are you sure?

[9:59] Ellen Foley: Well, I, yeah.

[10:00] Ellen Foley: I mean, based on the, uh, well, I've heard from a lot of people that there was no "Stay With Me" at that point. As a matter of fact, there's a YouTube video of you doing "Boom Crunch" and "Last Midnight," and it has "Stay With Me" from Broadway, but not from the...

[10:06] Ellen Foley: Oh, okay.

[10:17] Ellen Foley: Alright, because I have seen that and I, I don't know, I, you know, my memory, what can I say? I was assuming that I was seeing performances from San Diego and New York, but "Stay With Me."

[10:31] Ellen Foley: So man, I tell you about another gift. That song is so beautiful. Oh my god.

[10:37] Ben Rimalower: But you didn't have, you didn't have any ballad at that point. You had "Boom Crunch" in act two and the rap in act one.

[10:45] Ellen Foley: I mean, it's like, did I guess I'm trying to get a sense of like, did you have a feeling that they were going to, that this was in, they were gonna give you more material and they just hadn't gotten to it yet? Or was it like, no, you know, what did I know? This was the show. I wasn't, I didn't have any expectations of, you know, of if it should be but was going to be developed further or, you know, I was just, you know, in the moment of saying, you know, this is what you're giving me. I didn't demand a ballad.

[11:17] Ellen Foley: No. I'm not going on if I don't get an eleven o'clock number.

[11:21] Ben Rimalower: Well, but even aside from, you know, uh, from, you know, uh, what's the word? I don't know, you know, vanity or whatever, but it seemed to me that the, um, it would feel like something was missing in the show. Uh, but maybe that's just because I know it only in the...

[11:34] Ben Rimalower: Yes, you know, in hindsight.

[11:40] Ellen Foley: You know, I mean, I was I was just so enraptured with the whole atmosphere of doing it at the Old Globe.

[11:52] Ellen Foley: Yeah because you're in the woods. You're in this beautiful park, and to me it just felt like it was all one thing. I felt it was a little dreamlike. It was a little incredible, except for some reason, and here's another same word. Um like had a toothache. I was having some sort of drainage or something, and I went to this dentist, and they put me under and they pulled my two wisdom teeth.

[12:29] Ben Rimalower: That's so fitting.

[12:33] Ellen Foley: And I don't think I was out of the show. No, but Sondheim said he goes, that is the stupidest thing anybody has ever done. Why would you go up in the middle of a run and have your wisdom teeth pulled? I'm like, well, I don't know. You know, I went to this some weird place. They put me under and they pulled my wisdom teeth. And you know, he goes, God, that is the stupidest thing anybody has ever done. Why was it stupid? What would go wrong? I didn't know that I really needed my wisdom teeth pulled. I went to some phakacta dental place.

[13:09] Ben Rimalower: Well, I'm glad that you survived it. But okay, so then in terms of the rock and roll thing, like it seems like they were it was this big deal. I mean, like both James Lapine and Paul Gemignani, by everybody's reports, kept bringing up these rock and roll names, and then they were so happy that they got you who could actually do that.

[13:30] Ellen Foley: Really? You know, I have never heard this ever.

[13:34] Ben Rimalower: You were happy.

[13:35] Ellen Foley: I yeah, well, and Lapine was happy because he pretty much hated me through the whole thing.

[13:39] Ben Rimalower: But you were a very cool person on in my interview with him.

[13:43] Ellen Foley: Okay. But they talked about the rock and roll thing, and then I thought, well, and I finally listened to "Boom Crunch," it must be this big rock and roll song. And it doesn't sound like rock and roll at all.

[13:54] Ellen Foley: No, I think what I brought to it, not even the singing, I brought like a real toughness and a real darkness. Oh, and I think that's and when I saw Bernadette do it, you know, her take was so different. I felt like she was like a Jewish mother up there.

[14:13] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[14:15] Ellen Foley: And then when I came in in the end, I brought that back and that's when Michael David told me I was like a female Mick Jagger.

[14:24] Ben Rimalower: Oh cool.

[14:26] Ellen Foley: So yeah though that's interesting. So you it so the rock and roll was about the attitude not about I think so.

[14:33] Ben Rimalower: That makes much more sense.

[14:33] Ellen Foley: I certainly didn't think I was asked to inject anything vocally.

[14:41] Ellen Foley: You know, I really don't. And that's why it was a little hard for me because I had to come in and then sing like a theater singer.

[14:43] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[14:53] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[14:55] Ellen Foley: But you know then I mean I did that but then a while later I went and did "Me and My Girl."

[15:01] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[15:02] Ellen Foley: And that was really theater. I mean that's like old school theater school that was harder.

[15:09] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[15:10] Ellen Foley: You know because Sondheim is the rock and roll of musical theater.

[15:17] Ben Rimalower: Right well I think this show anyway.

[15:20] Ellen Foley: But you did "Hair." I mean isn't that the rock and roll of musical theater?

[15:23] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[15:24] Ellen Foley: Yes, yes, certainly. But I'm just saying Sondheim is not pigeonholed in any kind of musical theater like you know it's not "Hello, Dolly!"

[15:40] Ben Rimalower: It's not you know, which who he had to compete with and I know he was never happy with that.

[15:47] Ellen Foley: With Jerry, uh, what's his name? Who wrote "Hello?"

[15:49] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, Jerry Herman.

[15:51] Ellen Foley: That I think that he was a little bit of a nemesis to tell you the truth.

[15:55] Ben Rimalower: Well, they I know they talked a lot about the rivalry between "Sunday in the Park with George" and "La Cage aux Folles," and then with "Into the Woods," I guess they had it with "Phantom of the Opera," which was a thing.

[16:11] Ellen Foley: But I mean, you know, "Into the Woods" is now in its third Broadway production, fifth major New York production, while "Phantom of the Opera" is still running that same original production.

[16:24] Ben Rimalower: Right, which is about to close.

[16:26] Ellen Foley: About to close. Although they're saying that maybe that is just a cash grab so they can reopen it with a smaller band.

[16:33] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, which they've done what was the other show.

[16:39] Ellen Foley: Yeah.

[16:39] Ben Rimalower: Because they need more money, you know, they need poor poor thing.

[16:44] Ellen Foley: Um so okay, that's interesting what you say about the rock and roll. I really appreciate that. As far as the rap, I'm wondering because I mean nowadays, well, even in musical theater, we've got rap with you know, hip hop and "Hamilton" and "In the Heights" and stuff like that, but certainly just in culture in general, rap is something that we are all very acquainted with.

[17:05] Ben Rimalower: But what was your exposure in nineteen eighty-seven in nineteen eighty-six, I guess, when you got cast.

[17:12] Ellen Foley: Um, well, I had been in you know, the late 70s, early eighties, I had been around the Clash. And they were very when the first hit "High Pop" came out, you know, every all those kind of people were around Fab Five Freddie and um you know, there was a lot of that.

[17:36] Ellen Foley: So I have certainly been around it in its sort of purest form. You know, I j I never I've never really been been somebody who has who has bought the records. I mean, I hate to admit that my favorite rapper back in the day was Eminem. I mean that's terrible, the white guy. And I love Jay I love Jay-Z, just certain voices have captivated me.

[18:04] Ellen Foley: But you know, I've been around, you know, the really nascent parts of it. So I knew the feeling. I knew the but I don't know. I mean, it was called a rap, but to me it was it was the witch's rap was a song that was that was spoken.

[18:24] Ellen Foley: Yeah, you know, to me it was a great opportunity, a great acting opportunity, and I had a great time with it. I remember though in New York, when we did it, I always made this gesture, you were robbing me, raping me, and I would grab my crotch.

[18:43] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[18:44] Ellen Foley: And Chip Zien said, you know, my children are coming to this show. You know, you should not. I said, yeah, fine. Okay, bro.

[18:51] Ben Rimalower: Wait, really?

[18:52] Ellen Foley: Yeah.

[18:53] Ben Rimalower: I'm so disappointed to hear that. I mean, that seems like such a well that first of all, that's a great example from you of what the rock and roll energy that you brought.

[19:04] Ellen Foley: I was grabbing my crotch.

[19:07] Ben Rimalower: Because I would think that, well, first of all, supposedly the wolf's costume was pornographic, so this should have been the least of their worries.

[19:15] Ellen Foley: But um, but also it just seems like such a great just you know, over the top. I mean, that's what the witch is all about is like making an impression, right?

[19:26] Ellen Foley: I mean, yeah, and then and then the thing I did, they said, Do you have any kind of face? So I did the tongue thing. I don't know if other people did the tongue thing.

[19:35] Ellen Foley: When there was like um right there, I turned them into a table or chair and I go like had this little epileptic fit, you know, yeah and did a tongue thing.

[19:49] Ben Rimalower: So that yeah, I don't know if any they made anybody else do anything like that, but yeah, I did.

[19:56] Ellen Foley: You know, it's hard to know about that stuff because the video that they made for television, they added special effects for some of those sequences.

[20:04] Ben Rimalower: So I don't know what Bernadette was doing on a regular normal, you know, live on stage.

[20:11] Ellen Foley: Yeah, I don't what kind of special effects?

[20:13] Ben Rimalower: I mean, just small things, nothing crazy, but just you know, sound effects and little light things.

[20:18] Ellen Foley: Oh, I see that yeah.

[20:20] Ben Rimalower: But it just it becomes not about the gesture because they you know had to TV it up a little bit, you know.

[20:27] Ellen Foley: Yeah, sure.

[20:27] Ben Rimalower: But uh and uh that's interesting.

[20:31] Ellen Foley: Oh speak well, also you made me think when you talk about doing it in Balboa Park, I guess where the Old Globe is, whether you went to see it in Central Park when they did it there.

[20:41] Ellen Foley: No.

[20:42] Ben Rimalower: That because I think that might have had a little bit of the quality you described.

[20:45] Ellen Foley: Oh, that would be incredible. I mean, whenever I see things in Central Park, yeah, it's just everything to have those trees and sometimes there's the wind and various animals end up on stage, which I love.

[20:59] Ellen Foley: But yeah, no, I didn't see it. And I mean, I should go see this production. I'm just I'm upstate now, right now. I'm in my house upstate, and we spend so much time up here that I haven't been down there to see it, but um I should go.

[21:02] Ben Rimalower: I should go see it.

[21:16] Ellen Foley: Tell me if you don't mind, you know, how the process went from you for you from being in the show in San Diego. When did you find out that they were moving forward with Bernadette or I guess with Betty Buckley and then with Bernadette and you know how how was how was that all for you?

[21:33] Ellen Foley: It was bad.

[21:35] Ellen Foley: Yeah. That was bad. Because um, well, what I said about Lapine and you know, because I don't know, I think I don't think he liked me. And I think maybe I didn't come in with the discipline I should have in the beginning, but I really whipped myself into shape.

[21:53] Ellen Foley: And I remember, you know, but was once again I was in the parking lot and Sondheim said something like, you know, you really showed him, you know, it was like after you really showed him, you know, so I felt I had, you know, and all the reviews, I really, you know, I did got great reviews, but I think the plan always was, which I don't think I understood, was for them to have Bernadette in the show.

[22:20] Ellen Foley: And you know, why should she bother schlepping out to San Diego to do it?

[22:26] Ben Rimalower: Fascinating.

[22:28] Ellen Foley: That is so I mean she's she was, you know, she has had has had a lot of name value, you know.

[22:35] Ben Rimalower: So well, all and also it's I mean it's very interesting to hear you say that because the question that I've had not really gotten an answer to is the way the story about Bernadette goes is that it was that they had done this, you know, workshop with Betty Buckley after San Diego, and then that didn't work out, and then Bernadette was cast like in the 11th hour, and they never talk about her at all in all the two years of workshops and readings and San Diego.

[23:02] Ellen Foley: And it's maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm but she had just started in "Sunday in the Park with George." Why was she their very last thought for interviewing?

[23:09] Ellen Foley: I don't know. It sounds like your theory might have some merit.

[23:13] Ellen Foley: Yeah, maybe uh maybe she just didn't want to do it or you know, didn't want to do it or couldn't do it, or wasn't you know, didn't you was too tired or uh I don't know, but you know, it was very hard.

[23:27] Ellen Foley: And I remember writing Sondheim a letter, you know. It's like, oh, you know, but I never heard from him. I heard that he he he he uh answered letters to every cute boy who ever wrote but he didn't uh he didn't write me back. Um yeah, that sucked, it was terrible.

[23:47] Ellen Foley: I so okay, so you in Sondheim you had a you felt a good relationship with and Lapine you did not feel that way, and then were did anyone inform you that it was moving forward without you, or did you just read in the paper Bernadette Peters? Do I know? I don't, I don't remember. I remember, I think I remember that's why I was writing letters that it was happening, and I don't think I was getting an audition or something, and that's when I I wrote it. And then uh you did not hear back in a letter from him, but then eventually you got an offer to come in and do it on Broadway.

[24:23] Ellen Foley: Yes, at the very end, and you know, and then Lapine was all complimentary and everything to me. But I don't know, he didn't he didn't like me, but I think that's uh yeah, I'm glad he said I was a cool person. That's really nice.

[24:38] Ellen Foley: Yeah, no, he seemed extremely positive. Um he's a genius. I mean, you know, everybody says Sondheim Sondheim about the show, but it was the two of them.

[24:49] Ellen Foley: Yeah. It was kind too. You know, and to me it's I just think it's so cool that, you know, it wasn't it wasn't heralded as one of Sondheim's best or even better shows and all the second act, blah, blah, blah. And you know, but then it's been done.

[25:07] Ellen Foley: Yeah. So many times. People want to see it, people want to be in that world, which I think is magical. There's also there's a generational divide on it too. I realized this years ago when I was Lonnie's assistant, because everybody that I'm 46, and everybody that I grew up with, and certainly everyone younger than me, this is the number one Sondheim show.

[25:28] Ellen Foley: It's their gateway drug to musical theater because they watched that video of the original production, you know.

[25:34] Ben Rimalower: Oh, really?

[25:34] Ellen Foley: Yeah, and they've all done it in their high school or their college.

[25:39] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[25:39] Ellen Foley: Theater. I mean, what's a more perfect uh high school college? Big ensemble cast, lots of great material, familiar. And fairy tales, fairy tale. So they it's something they grew up with.

[25:50] Ellen Foley: So major, and yet I remember when I I I when I went to uh work for Lonnie, and it was like, you know, Sondheim to him meant company follies, a little night music, Sweeney Todd, it did not mean Into the Woods, maybe Sunday in the Park with George, but it did not mean Into the Woods.

[26:08] Ellen Foley: And then I just saw that again and again with everybody, you know, and and I remember reading the Frank Rich review, not at the time, but you know, years later, like on the internet, being shocked that it had gotten a bad review.

[26:22] Ellen Foley: Uh I had thought it was this like hallowed, you know, classic. Um but you're right. I guess I guess now it is.

[26:31] Ben Rimalower: Do we think that it is a hallowed hallowed classic now? Just because it's been done so much, is it?

[26:37] Ellen Foley: I used to be.

[26:37] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, sure.

[26:38] Ellen Foley: You know, uh and the movie, I mean, it just has such a wide, uh wide reach.

[26:43] Ben Rimalower: That's true.

[26:44] Ellen Foley: So did you ever hear how Sondheim rated it in his uh in his shows? If he loved it or where it was in in his canon.

[26:56] Ellen Foley: I don't I don't know the answer to that. I mean, I know that um you when you talk about everybody talks Sondheim, Sondheim, and you know, you're giving credit to Lapine. The first person I've heard to give the credit all to Lapine is Sondheim and the um like some of the I was interviewing Ira Weitzman for this podcast, um, and he was saying he got choked up talking about the way that Sondheim talked about how much Lapine transformed his career for him.

[27:24] Ellen Foley: And so I've I imagine that Sondheim had to hold all the shows with Lapine in a special place in his personally speaking.

[27:34] Ellen Foley: Um that was very moving when Ira Weitzman was talking about it. But I don't know specifically uh Into the Woods, um, you know, it also seemed just as an outsider, it seemed like as Sondheim became older, he would kind of like loved everybody and everything and was just sort of like at intermission having his like vodka, like everything was wonderful, you know.

[27:57] Ben Rimalower: Like the curmudgeon that people talked about from the 70s, you know.

[28:01] Ellen Foley: Yeah, I mean, I never I didn't see him as curmudgeonly, you know, he was always very uh he was always very nice.

[28:08] Ellen Foley: But you know, it it's so funny when I think that maybe people experienced it. When you're in the room, you're working, um, you know, that's one thing. But but then like sometimes, you know, like in on Broadway anyway, you know, I'd be sitting there back backstage and he would come and like, oh no shit, what do I say? I don't know.

[28:26] Ellen Foley: I like Well, hello you get so nervous. You don't know what the what could I what could I add, what could I offer, you know, in terms of conversation.

[28:39] Ellen Foley: So I that that was kind of funny. I remember him being backstage, but um but that I think there was a re guy, you know, I I'd like to think that there was uh he there was a love for me from him.

[28:51] Ellen Foley: He actually told me he loved me when I went I went to uh audition for him. They were doing a um a production of um what's the one uh you know that ran for three three three performances in New York.

[29:09] Ellen Foley: No, not Anyone Can Whistle.

[29:10] Ellen Foley: Oh that's the song.

[29:12] Ellen Foley: Okay, here we are. Now Can Whistle.

[29:19] Ellen Foley: I love it. So I'm talking what's the one with the Marily Okay, Marilee.

[29:24] Ellen Foley: So I went in auditioned for Marily and uh, you know, I sing my song and he looks at me and he goes, I love you I was like, uh uh okay, bye.

[29:34] Ellen Foley: I mean, you know, he was a very, you know, loving, affectionate person as far as I know. But you gotta think uh, you know, he had to have he had to, you know, have a lack of patience, I'm sure, with a lot of people, because, you know, in his life and and trying to come up and and making people understand and yeah and and other people who were mere mortals, you know what I'm saying?

[30:01] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[30:01] Ellen Foley: But I I always found him to be he was, you know, as as much as I would allow myself to be um in his presence, he was he was really wonderful. He was Steven Sondheim for Christ's sake, my God.

[30:15] Ellen Foley: I mean truly. Did you feel like I mean people have talked other cast members um about all the changes that were going on in San Diego and the rewriting and the rewriting, but it seems like there did you not have to deal with many rewrites in San Diego?

[30:31] Ellen Foley: Oh I'm sure I did. You know, I I don't remember specifics. But it it was it was a first uh it was a first production.

[30:40] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[30:40] Ellen Foley: Sure, yeah. I mean things had to change. I mean I think you know there was always tinkering and always changing with the second act.

[30:47] Ellen Foley: And the giant, you know, there was always you know a lot of a lot of uh thinking and changing, you know, with with that that plot with the giant.

[30:58] Ellen Foley: But um oh g you know I'm sorry if I can't be specific because I can't even remember the name of God damn shows and songs.

[31:07] Ben Rimalower: We got it.

[31:08] Ellen Foley: We got it Ellen. No and the thing is you know what this is why this podcast I'm doing it because if people don't remember stuff now they're not gonna remember it even less later, you know and we I want to get it all because they really want to get it.

[31:21] Ellen Foley: It's before the internet, you know nobody knows what happened when um and um so uh I guess just my other curiosity would be when you came into the show in New York, did you have a sense of like, oh, this this is the piece that they were trying to do before? Or did you think it were you surprised?

[31:44] Ellen Foley: You know, what what was your experience of the re the final version that you stepped into?

[31:50] Ellen Foley: Oh god, you asked hard questions because I'm somebody who just you know just accepts, like I said, I was in the moment in San Diego, and I was well, I mean, I was thrilled that I had you know the the the songs, and also you know, the the the uh technical stuff that you know in San Diego is like when she goes down and transforms, you know, it was like I don't remember how we did it, probably clunky, but that was so cool, you know.

[32:18] Ellen Foley: In in on Broadway, you went under the stage as if and you you know oh, you know, it was like you know, Saturday Night Live, you know, you're changing to it, and then you come up and you're the beautiful witch.

[32:28] Ellen Foley: I mean, that was so fantastic. I'm like, you know, here we have a budget. This is beautiful.

[32:35] Ellen Foley: But to be able to do the last midnight and boom crunch and um, and of course, stay with me, which is uh just you know, like I said, I've I've sung it through the years. I've sung it over and over, and uh just the beauty of that.

[32:52] Ellen Foley: And how about children will listen? You didn't have that in San Diego either, right?

[32:56] Ellen Foley: Um, I you know, I always I always think of children will listen and stay with me as the same thing because it was it's all in one piece.

[33:04] Ellen Foley: When I say what you know, children stay with me.

[33:07] Ben Rimalower: Oh, the lament, yeah, right.

[33:08] Ellen Foley: It's all the lament, it's all when I say children will listen, I I mean uh I mean when I say stay with me, I think children will listen because it's all it's all of a piece.

[33:19] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[33:20] Ellen Foley: That's interesting. It's it's uh it's like one song, then both songs, then the other song. It's it's like but they really do go together.

[33:28] Ellen Foley: Did you guys in San Diego have a long version of Seven Midnight that was like everybody in the cast like singing for like seven minutes like parts of children will listen and parts of the other stuff?

[33:41] Ellen Foley: No I think that that was um that that was uh for the Broadway for the Broadway that that developed I guess over developed and then and then removed yes um that's interesting well I really I really appreciate this Ellen this is so great too Ben this is fun because you know I do you know I I put out uh an album in the last couple of years and I'm performing I'm really bad doing my rock and roots stuff and I've done so many interviews around that for the last couple of years and answered the same questions and had to add you and but this has been a total mind shift talking to you about this.

[34:22] Ben Rimalower: Well I'm glad to hear it now don't forget your musical theater fans because you know you have these roots too thank you for listening to Giants in the Sky how Sondheim and Lapine went Into the Woods on the Broadway Podcast Network.

[34:39] Ben Rimalower: Look out for episode 20 with Michael David the original producer.