This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Ben Rimalower: Welcome to Giants in the Sky: How Sondheim and Lapine Went Into the Woods with me.

[0:07] Ben Rimalower: Today's guest, Michael David, the original producer.

[0:11] Ben Rimalower: Once upon a time.

[0:19] Michael David: I was the executive producer of the original Broadway production of Into the Woods. I am a founding partner in Dodger Theatricals and have produced the Broadway premieres of Jersey Boys, Matilda, You're in Town, The Secret Garden, and The Farnsworth Invention, as well as revivals of Camelot, Jesus Christ Superstar, 42nd Street, The Music Man, and Into the Woods, to name a few.

[0:40] Michael David: Prior to my work with Dodger Theatricals, I was the executive director of the Chelsea Theater Center of Brooklyn.

[0:54] Ben Rimalower: Well, first of all, thank you so much for talking to me. I'm really grateful. And now you know I'm older, so my recollections are vague and foggy. So let's, uh, let's see what I can get. Let's see what I can do. But you know, that's really why I'm doing it, because it's such an iconic musical. And it's, I mean, it's a landmark show, you know. I mean, I’m 46 years old, and I grew up with this, you know, from the time I was in junior high. And I see that for the younger people, to them, this is the Sondheim musical. I mean, this comes before Sweeney Todd. It comes before A Little Night Music, Follies, Company. You know, this is the show that's their gateway to not only to Sondheim, but in many cases to musical theater or theater at all.

And, um, because it's pre-internet, there's, uh, you know, there's such scant information available about the development. And I'm so interested in it. And James Lapine wrote that wonderful book, Putting It Together, about the development of Sunday. And I asked him, was he gonna write one for Into the Woods? And he said no. And so it was too much work. So that was what made me think we've got to get everybody on record, you know, while they still can remember anything. Um, because it's so many years ago, and, uh, but you are a missing piece of the puzzle. So anything that you do remember, I will be so, so grateful for.

[2:15] Michael David: Well, I have to say I agree with you. I remember when Freddie Gershon, um, at, uh, you know, got the rights and decided to do an Into the Woods junior, which was his first junior of a Sondheim. But I do think that the act of making that available, even if it was first act, just salted the earth with this show for folks like you who, uh, you know, wondered what was out there. What was out there was that was Into the Woods. So, um, yeah, anyway, it's amazing to me what it's become. Now, so going back to the beginning, I had originally wondered if your involvement began because of the history with Sondheim and Candide, um, at Chelsea and everything, but, um, I guess that's not quite the case. When did you first become aware there even was an Into the Woods?

[3:09] Michael David: When I, when Heidi Landesman or Rocco Landisman, I can't remember which one, and we were partners with Brock and still are all the way through this, um, said she'd seen this thing at Playwrights and, uh, could I go? And I never was able to make it. And but, but in the meantime, um, uh, they wondered if we wanted to basically get on board with their initiative, and we had done some of these early collaborations with nonprofits like Big River at both Harvard and then out at La Jolla. And so, um, we said, great, but it was literally before San Diego, but not before Playwrights that in fact we joined Rocco and Heidi and their merry band.

[4:01] Ben Rimalower: So you did not even see the workshop in 1986 at Playwrights Horizons?

[4:07] Michael David: No, no. But, but Rocco and Heidi liked it, and you liked the script and the names, and that was sure. And we had been doing things at Chelsea together for a long time, especially with Rocco. And so, um, not to mention we were, you know, this struggling group of, uh, folks, uh, who, uh, were trying to make the transfer out of the nonprofit, which I must say was where we all learned what we were doing in those great days of the nonprofits, um, into the commercial theater and had moved to Joe Papp and we're there, but we're basically looking for a way to claw our way into basically figuring out the commercial world, which had always been seen as the enemy. And so, uh, the idea of doing something by Steve was, you know, you bet we were on.

[5:00] Ben Rimalower: Now, am I understanding correctly that Big River was the first time that there had been this collaboration between commercial producers and a nonprofit to bring a show to fruition?

[5:13] Michael David: No, that there were, it was the most sort of formal rendition of such a collaboration, but, um, when we did at Chelsea Happy End with Meryl Streep and whatever, we, uh, it started, I think, in Buffalo. Um, and the guy who had the rights, whose name I'm gonna forget, Michael Summon. And he, it's a worthy last name because he basically brought it to us at Chelsea, but I can't remember it. Um, anyway, he had done sort of a tryout there, and not with Meryl, but basically of the Happy End. And so, um, and frankly, Buffalo, if it was Buffalo, it was a, it wasn't Binghamton, it was a, I think it was, it was anyway, it was a, it was a New York nonprofit, got in trouble with the New York State Council because ostensibly their perception was they were using public money for a commercial launch, and it didn't go anywhere.

But basically for us, that was the first experience I had with combining such a thing. And of course, we at Chelsea did four or five of these things, which we did and then moved, Candy being the largest, but, but dental and, uh, and a couple of David Story plays and whatever, um, all sort of moved from our 111 seat theater to off-Broadway or Broadway. And Pump Boys and Dinette's was, uh, in that line also, is that right?

[6:54] Michael David: It was, but I mean, we did that, that was when we were with Joe, and it was our first year. The Dodgers and Mabu Mines were both taken on board with the as companies there, and, uh, we did our little season, and then there were six of us, and then three of us, Des and Sherman Warner and remember, did Henry Four in the park with Joe. And in the summer on unemployment, they went with a horse, by the way, but that was the Henry Four with a horse. We basically saw this thing at the Cattleman restaurant, um, with, um, uh, the folks doing Pump Boys and basically moved it across the street from the public where our little office was, um, uh, for the summer, uh, to sort of keep us busy. And everybody, the cast got 175 dollars a week, and we got 175 dollars a week, and that was it. And I must say that was our Pump Boys was sort of the welcome ad for us to step out of the nonprofit and into the commercial of 175 dollars a week was commercial. That was it for us.

[8:07] Ben Rimalower: And so, uh, but then Big River was on a much larger scale. Were you able to just use that as a template for Into the Woods?

[8:19] Michael David: I think in making the deal with San Diego, it was pretty much, pretty much we've done, I think, 28 of those collaborative things going into the future. And the templates have been pretty much the same at all the, at all times. You know, they put up the money, you enhance what they don't have. Um, you get none of the box office, but you get the wisdom, if you will, that you're in, which is the most valuable thing about equity. You got it. And, um, and also, you know, your arm's length, because ostensibly you stay out of the way. The artistic director of that theater remains the artistic director of that project. We in this case agreed on who the creative team was, and casting happened here, and, um, they came out from San Diego for the casting, but ostensibly it then was turned over to them.

And even though we poked around and were out there when things were going on, but the buck stopped with San Diego, and we left with what we could learn and any physical production that they didn't own before. Um, that's what our takeaway was from, um, the production, and basically from all the productions in the future.

[9:24] Ben Rimalower: Was there something specifically about the town of San Diego? Because I mean, I know Big River was at La Jolla and then Into the Woods was at the Old Globe, so it's only coincidental, seemingly, that they're in the same area.

[9:37] Michael David: Yeah, no, look, I just think that that for us, you know, familiarity had not bred contempt yet, and that's too. And I must say, doing great things on the coast of California, um, uh, was a pretty nice life. And so, um, and I must say there were theatergoers that had ostensibly been trained both first by the Old Globe and then by the later arrival of La Jolla. So we knew there was an audience there, um, to go face see things and to see something like this. And contrasting with Sunday in the Park with George, which had been done in a workshop also at Playwrights Horizons, and then a full production at Playwrights Horizons, and then Broadway, was there any thought to Playwrights Horizons being the nonprofit theater where the show would premiere?

[10:27] Michael David: You know, I don't remember it ever coming up. I mean, I think the thing before the internet, as you point out, the great thing for us was I think acknowledging that there's every chance your first idea about the thing you're doing will turn out to be stupid, and secondly, you don't want that to be seen and reviewed being stupid, that privacy and distance was important. And so I think the idea of taking this 3,000 miles away from New York and the critics and whatever was critical to and has been all along in doing these things, um, uh, been to where we went. Um, we did not want to, and, and you know, the problem would be if you went to Paper Mill, for instance, the Times critic went across the Hut, you know, the Hudson to the top to Paper Mill. And in these days, even though it was Sondheim, um, there was some respect for the fact that it was a developmental production, it wasn't done, and give us a chance.

[11:29] Ben Rimalower: Uh, so, and was there, um, always the plan to do another workshop back in New York after San Diego, or was that something that came up for reasons?

[11:44] Michael David: Well, the workshop that happened after San Diego was really the beginning of a long rehearsal period because the workshop used the cast that eventually, but for Betty trading off for Bernadette, that was going to go to Broadway. And because Rocco had just sort of taken on the presidency of Ju Jampson, he was able to say you’ve in this case you’ve got the theater while we waited to see how we were gonna, what, what, what would whether there was something worthy turning out in San Diego to move into it. But when we left San Diego, and I’m sure people have told you that everybody left in San Diego at intermission because they thought it was over.

[12:30] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[12:37] Michael David: Um, James and Steve hadn't determined what the ending was and really wanted a chance to do it. And so we proposed pretty nifty thing, actually, I think that we would rehearse for eight weeks, but that we would take a month off in the middle, so that we would put the cast together, knowing where we were eventually hopefully gonna go, knock on wood, we would put it up for I think it was three and a half to four weeks with the original Broadway cast that hadn't been there yet. They would try, and as I recollect, to create two endings, which they would see we'd run at the end of that first four weeks, and then taking that, they would rewrite over the next four weeks of downtime, and then we would regather at the studio and rehearse that the show with the new ending for the next five weeks going into the back.

[13:29] Michael David: And the way we were able to remunerate the actors who basically were laying low for four weeks was to do those first weeks on a workshop contract, which gave them a piece of the profit, inherent in the contract.

[13:45] Michael David: Um, and uh, but basically it was a long rehearsal period.

[13:50] Michael David: So the Into the Woods original cast has a contract like the Hamilton cast or the Chorus Line cast where they get a piece of owning the show.

[14:01] Michael David: Well, in the workshop contract with Equity, if you at that time, even that time did a workshop, you received a share, you received the cast received a pro rata share of one percent of the profits.

[14:15] Michael David: Wow.

[14:15] Michael David: So what we did was take on a contract that already existed with Actors Equity that ostensibly did reward their members for not getting paid the full freight and doing this, and for us for actually laying low for four weeks without compensation.

[14:30] Michael David: Um, we agreed to do it on a workshop contract.

[14:33] Ben Rimalower: Fascinating.

[14:34] Michael David: So it was really considered part of the Broadway process, not a separate um incarnation.

[14:40] Michael David: Correct.

[14:41] Michael David: Correct.

[14:41] Michael David: And we had planned to come back when we started at the beginning. We had planned it to take a break.

[14:46] Michael David: Steve and James would have four weeks with the clock ticking to get something ready for us to do next, which was important these days.

[14:53] Michael David: And then we went back to the same place we had rehearsed to do it again.

[14:58] Ben Rimalower: And was the timing with Betty and Bernadette that Betty was out after that workshop and Bernadette was in for the beginning of the Broadway proper?

[15:07] Michael David: That was the case, correct.

[15:08] Ben Rimalower: And I mean that's another thing where it seems like nowadays that would have been widely announced, or at least you know, Playbill.com and everybody would be absolutely well now, you know, you do something you think far away, including England, and an intermission somehow of your first performance with an invited audience, it's reviewed across the world, so there is no privacy.

[15:31] Michael David: But at that time, you're exactly right. It just we were just under the radar, it was in the works, was it gonna work, was it not?

[15:38] Michael David: We didn't we didn't announce an advertising that I recollect that we were coming to the back.

[15:42] Michael David: So um basically this did happen under the radar, which was good for everybody, including Betty, who by the way, I think would have been quite good in the show, um had it worked out.

[15:54] Ben Rimalower: Can you talk at all about how what happened there?

[15:57] Michael David: Honest to God, I I I can't remember the particulars and I think if James hasn't I shouldn't but um but I love Betty and I and I and I think she would have been a great witch you know yeah it just wasn't the right fit.

[15:57] Michael David: Wasn't the right fit and uh was there any sense once Bernadette was cast that because I've heard conflicting things from different people that uh the part of the witch was then beefed up somehow uh either just because dramaturgically that's what the show wanted or other people saying no that the audience needed to see more of Bernadette and so that was delivered look the the great thing about doing these things over and over is theoretically you get smarter with each rendition right yeah why you love to do a tour I mean if nothing else even some little tour you'd love to to make it better so I I think all of us really were thinking about that and I and I think there wasn't a lot of you know I don't think there were talks with agents about but she's gonna need another song at the at the 11 o'clock hour or she's gonna do this I think James and Steve were working on this piece that was clearly unfinished when we left San Diego to make it better and and my I would like to believe I wasn't a part of a conversation where someone said we gotta give her another one because people gonna come for her um uh I wasn't a part of any conversation like that.

[17:32] Ben Rimalower: Interesting.

[17:33] Michael David: And then just as far as coming back from San Diego, there was a bit of time, I guess, because San Diego closed the beginning of January. And then I think that workshop was over the summer.

[17:43] Michael David: Um and uh is that when the I understand that there was like choreographer like auditions. Is that something you remember?

[17:55] Michael David: I don't remember.

[17:55] Michael David: I mean, I know I don't remember. I know that Lar ended up on the Playbill, but uh but I I don't I don't really remember how it went.

[18:06] Michael David: And we all knew Lar and didn't know lots of other choreographers, by the way. And so and Lapine hadn't directed a half a dozen shows, so this was, you know, the blind leading the blind.

[18:16] Michael David: We knew a little bit more than others did, but only a little.

[18:16] Michael David: Only a little.

[18:20] Michael David: Another thing that different actors have mentioned about that time period was backers auditions that different people came and sang at. And I don't know um if that was them remembering something, you know, for what it actually was as far as the producers were concerned.

[18:38] Michael David: Is that something that would have happened?

[18:40] Michael David: That's I think I think God knows that that happens today.

[18:44] Michael David: We we've often said that, at least for the Dodgers, I I think I can count on one hand or any thing that was actually a backers audition.

[18:54] Michael David: The great thing about the developmental production was people could come and see something more ready than would be in a rehearsal room.

[19:03] Michael David: So it's not uncommon now and certainly wasn't uncommon then to basically say, Listen, by the way, we're bringing in three people and then we're gonna sit along the wall and could you make sure you do this song and that song.

[19:15] Michael David: I I I'm sure that happened.

[19:17] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[19:19] Michael David: And uh and was was this show easier to capitalize given the pedigree of Sondheim and and the Sunday in the Park of George having just been such a um uh you know at least an artistic triumph, if not a financial one?

[19:34] Michael David: Well, I I look, I mean, I think the the upside of Steve's art is the downside of the economic nature. They never recouped, so ostensibly you could point to Sunday, but it didn't get its money back, right?

[19:51] Michael David: And nor did Sweeney, nor you know, so the thing that we could point to, I think, was that there were you know, I I've I've always said the longer you can run, the better the therm, the more accurate the thermometer will be whether the audience wants to see the show or not.

[20:11] Michael David: And so I think um what we could say was there was now a fairly significant group of what we affectionately called Sondheimites who would basically populate the Beck for the early days, and if we were good, get the word out so that it wasn't gonna open in a vacuum.

[20:30] Michael David: But the idea that that this one was gonna turn a profit for Steve when he hadn't before, and he always claimed he never knew it didn't recoup or shows didn't recoup, you know.

[20:41] Michael David: He really that show didn't recoup.

[20:43] Michael David: So uh anyway, I think um, but look, it was if you wanted if people who put money in shows did so not so much for the return, but for being able to wear the clothing of that of that show, this was great clothing to wear, as you pointed out at the beginning when you talked about it, you know.

[21:07] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah.

[21:09] Michael David: I'm in the Sondheim, you know, I'm doing it.

[21:11] Michael David: So that was absolutely and so what did that become apparent um on a larger scale uh immediately once the show opened was was this um a struggle to get to the Tony Awards like what what was the the dynamic like once it was open well as you know the reviews were mixed and I remember remember we had this the infamous opening night party was in a tent in Central Park and it was cold as hell and rainy and so I remember them loading in heaters and then setting up food on these tables and the water was running in under the tents and whatever and we were getting people to to the to the tents in buses and so I unluckily was on a cast business at that time you know you'd wait in the lobby of the Times on 43rd Street you'd get the paper and I had the paper and I had to read Frank Rich or Ben I got it you know to the cast on our way over.

[22:13] Michael David: Oh my God not pretty I mean just hey look you know um we we basically have committed not to produce for critics since we began this thing at the same time that was when they made a difference yeah um and so we know I I I think we we struggled to be a warm hit which by the way at this time in the in in our your in my Broadway there aren't any.

[22:45] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[22:46] Michael David: You're either a big hit or you're struggling for your life.

[22:49] Michael David: It's really really hard up there.

[22:51] Michael David: So so we became, I think, um, I'd like to think we were a warm hit, but we were going from you know, breaking even to making a few bucks to losing a few bucks.

[23:04] Michael David: So it was never a slam dunk.

[23:07] Ben Rimalower: Did was it a big loss to the box office when Bernadette left?

[23:15] Michael David: Honest to God, I I don't really remember.

[23:18] Michael David: I don't I don't remember.

[23:22] Michael David: I really I really don't know whether it had much effect or not.

[23:26] Michael David: Um it was it was it was pretty hand to mouth.

[23:30] Michael David: I mean, just keeping it going.

[23:32] Michael David: And and at the same time you had people like William Henry at the at Time magazine who loved this thing and craved it and kept doing it.

[23:42] Michael David: You know, so you had these uh people, and then it won the you know the New York Critics as you know, the the best musical, whatever, but but it was you know successful art attempting to pay for itself, which is the danger of bringing it to Broadway in the first place.

[24:00] Michael David: So we were in that position.

[24:02] Michael David: I I had noticed um in the ABC section of a Playbill from the time of of the run, shortly after opening, that uh there were times when it said the um all the above the title um stars in a bigger a bigger box, and then I guess there was times when for whatever reasons it was in a smaller like a rectangle and it just said starring Bernadette Peters.

[24:27] Michael David: And uh I wondered, like, you know, was that part of the because I I mean I'm old enough to remember at the time that Felicia Rashad and Nancy Dussault uh were very big TV stars at that time, um, uh especially Felicia Rashad.

[24:43] Ben Rimalower: And so was that part of the calculus in replacing Bernadette like that?

[24:49] Michael David: Well, I think in a perfect world, you know, we looked for any handhold we could find uh to to bring in that audience that wasn't a Sondheimite.

[24:57] Michael David: Yeah.

[24:58] Michael David: It was made Sondheimites, so they were created with woods, but but um it strategically, I think anyone, any anything we could do to basically ratchet up the attention, we did.

[25:16] Michael David: And so um uh but I but I don't I I don't really recollect that we got we bumped up significantly or bumped down significantly at the window.

[25:32] Michael David: I I really don't.

[25:34] Michael David: Um we we were able to dress the house really well so that downstairs looked great in the back, and that was sort of the you know, that was what we shot.

[25:47] Michael David: So so the house manager would on the the weekday shows would quietly tell people upstairs if they wanted to move down to the back, they could.

[25:58] Michael David: Um but I mean we we were we were we were playing to to decent houses all the time, really.

[26:05] Ben Rimalower: What do you remember whose idea it was to do the inflatable giant's leg?

[26:12] Michael David: Um okay, Nancy Coyne and I, Serena, argue that it was my idea or her idea. But the point is, in the end, what what turned out up there was Ann Slavitt's idea, who basically we brought on to do it.

[26:28] Michael David: And so the Anne deserves it, and when we did it again, which is certainly a symptom of how old you are when you recoup your own show. Um, you know, the then moving it to the front of the Broadhurst was thank God we had saved it all and whatever. And that was that was that was it. And that that was our idea to do it. We we we loved the boot. And uh but anything that remember, remember the Beck was the place no one went. Yeah, it was west of Eighth Avenue, no one went over there. So um it really was um uh not a theater that had a lot of hits in it. And so I think the the boot more than anything else was to create a reason to notice that there was this thing happening on the other side of Eighth Avenue.

Uh it certainly seems like it succeeded. I mean, even the uh even the current revival got uh got a Times article out of it without even having the boot. Um we were we were asked to track it down, you know, and found the person who took it down and where it was, and he said when he took it down that uh chip that that it basically was sort of crumbling at that time anyway. And it's I mean it was a balloon, so you know that was that was pretty much it. But yeah. Uh and um what what was it just a matter of sales like just you not able to sustain when when it was finally shut down, when the show was finally closed?

[27:53] Michael David: Yeah, I think I think ostensibly there was you know, it's it's the thing shows are going through now all the time. I I think and and I recollect that you know, we were able to give a cast two, three to four weeks' notice that was gonna happen. It wasn't like on a Tuesday you closed on Sunday the way a couple of things are happening now, it's just breaks your heart. Um but yeah, I think it just that was it. But I mean a couple things had happened. Um, you know, we had the rights had merged, there was a stock and amateur deal in the works for it. Um we were gonna do a tour. That was in the works too, as it was planned, and I think the idea was we would go facing bloody September's, which is what they were out there. It was just it was it was the time, it was time.

[28:41] Ben Rimalower: Was um was the tour more successful financially? Because it seems like it ran for quite a long time that tour.

[28:54] Michael David: Um exact. You know, I mean touring used to be, and knock on wood will be the closest thing to a real business that Broadway gets. You know, you actually can sort of say if we play these ten markets and they guarantee you this, we could at least break even, or we can't, and it's a good reason to go or not go, you know. And I'm sure we did that math. Um at the same time, I think you know, this was there were fewer Sondheim fans around the country. So, you know, we did play the Kennedy Center for as I recollect six weeks or so, and and you would think that would be a place that and it did well there. Um and the Los Angeles run was was pretty long as well. That was great too. That was really swell, and it was a it was a big opening, and um, yeah, no, that was good. That that was great.

[29:49] Michael David: Yeah, that was that was two months also. Two months, two full months. Yeah. And um, I mean, had was I assume casting Cleo Lane as the witch or that or was that part of the like marketing or was that just um Well I think I think we I think anything that would help you sell a ticket and if they felt she was good um then that was that was worth doing it. I don't think she was in for a real long time though. I think we had to No, yeah, it seems like Betsy Joslin took over pretty early in that all purpose in those days. Seems like it really she got tossed around and just fit into every no question. Not a bad gig though, I must say. That was that was that was quite a company uh um uh on Broadway.

[30:40] Michael David: So um yeah. And had the vision always been because it had happened with Sunday in the Park with George and with Sweeney Todd, was the idea always to film this for television and video at at some point?

[30:54] Michael David: I d I don't I don't think we thought about it at the beginning, but I mean Theater in America, I think that's what it was called on PBS was doing this stuff. And at Chelsea we had done three or four of them. Um and I god, I can't think of the guy's name who was playing it. But um we had done three or four of them where they'd come in, you know, two days in a row and it wouldn't be a ton of cameras and they would shoot it and then they'd put it up there. Even a play or two we did. I think it that we did a thing with Franklin Gelo. What was that? Anyway, so um it was it was commonplace. I think the interesting thing about this was they took considerable time doing it. So they were there more than one night or two and um getting placing the orchestra around the game and there were a lot of cameras at that time, a lot more cameras than had happened before.

[31:45] Michael David: So there was a real a real attempt to capture it um in a sophisticated way at that time. So the show earned that just basically by people seeing it and deciding to to do it. And we brought people back to do it. Yes.

[32:03] Ben Rimalower: Was um was this then uh back to the tour I'm sorry was was that um was there a lot of reconfiguring to make it more tourable?

[32:16] Michael David: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah and and uh for sure and and there was a lot of tinkering with the book. So um you know to to put it out again that that's my recollection that our second act looked significantly different. Now James will remember that better but but I do think that that thing that always happens I think happened on this one particularly but yeah just just physically there were changes for sure.

[32:48] Michael David: And there were changes also for the revival in um 2002. Was was that uh something that was like long ingestion as you know James's hit list that he'd been you know stuck in his craw all those years?

[33:06] Michael David: Well I mean I do think I do think um that one reflected a couple of things what was possible then that might not have been possible before and what we knew then that we didn't know before. And so um I think bringing in Doug to do it who we had we love and um and he and James really got off well and what he did was something very different than what Heidi did the first time and uh I I think I I think that's that's the kind of thing you salivate for. Maybe we can do this all over again and do it differently and design it differently and whatever.

[33:48] Michael David: So I think just bringing Doug Schmidt in um made a big difference in terms of what his chops were and what they weren't. To to design the set design the set.

[33:58] Ben Rimalower: And um and what what did you what when you talk about things that you knew then that you hadn't known before what are you referring to?

[33:58] Michael David: Um I guess I think I think just everybody was more was was savvier um God knows we had done a number of things before that happened um and got smarter with each one of them um and uh and I look I I can't imagine that James didn't either and that Steve didn't either and and and whatever you know it just I I can't think of things in particular but I remember even um sitting in the Shubert offices they let us meet upstairs in that that sort of wonderful room uh and uh looked I think at Doug's set and James was there and we were just talking about how we thought I I'm trying to think how many years later was it? Is it 15 years later?

[35:05] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[35:07] Michael David: Um, you know how how that audience you talked about that had been gestating and cat you know and and catching on would would have been enriched and uh and uh available for harvest. And we thought basically bringing this back, we could um it could it it would be a valuable addition to sort of the for starters the family show um repertoire on Broadway at that time, and um um and we had the Broadhurst, which for me is about as beautiful a house as you can put anything, and uh so the audience would be on top of it, et cetera, et cetera.

[35:47] Michael David: And so I do think there was much more concern whether it paid off or not, um, about who was gonna come and how we get them and what was gonna happen and you know and whatever. And and one of the things we did um um would everything we could to create a a larger and larger reserve. It just became clear to us that between preview losses, all that money you think you're saving for advertising tends to get lost when you don't fill the house and you're having rehearsals in the afternoon or whatever, so that um that show and God knows the shows ahead and even now um uh with MJ, for instance, we're we're we made sure to raise enough money to basically support the show long enough to know whether people people were gonna want it or not want it, which is something no matter what you do, you you'll never really know.

[36:42] Ben Rimalower: So interesting.

[36:44] Michael David: You you referred to that earlier in terms of um a show has to run long before you can see whether people want to see it.

[36:54] Michael David: Well, I just look, I I just think um word of mouth takes a while and um you know rarely does it happen immediately I mean I look I I mean it it it it thrills me to remember Jersey Boys in the early preview days when you know we decided no one cared about this show whatsoever so we never we never pushed Adrian to get a or an interview we never wanted a story about the show we took no advertising we just figured they're gonna we're just you know whatever but the fact is people came with such low expectations nothing against Jersey Boys and literally in the first week it just went off like a rocket it just it was amazing I Marshall Brickman said that I I did he say I think this is something good.

[37:46] Michael David: Anyway it was it was understated but it but it was um but that doesn't happen very often.

[37:52] Michael David: So basically I think you need to and people are going to other shows so they all don't sort of run to one so I think to be found and then to be talked about I figure the least is eight to ten weeks.

[38:03] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[38:04] Michael David: That's expensive to stay alive that long especially if you need that audience to come before you can break even and um so have there been shows of yours or even shows you've observed you've observed with other people that you felt unfortunately had to close prematurely and that they would have they would have hit that but that they didn't have the funds and and didn't get the chance.

[38:31] Michael David: I mean, let's put this way. I'm sure of it um um could I give you five? No. I mean, but I'm sure of it. Um, you know, um, for instance, that you know, just opened and whatever, you know, and I I'm sure he thought that basically the spin he brought to Broadway by taking this thing, it got wonderful reviews of the public to that little theater where it'll really cook, um, would just come.

[39:06] Michael David: And in and in the end, you know, they the audience began to find it. I mean, we went there, we did we did this two weeks in a row. Uh we found ourselves, because I'm a Tony administrator, so we found ourselves going to um uh the Korean show that the Wednesday after they announced they were closing Tuesday on Sunday, and we went to A Nomo on the Wednesday after the announcement Tuesday. And two things happened. Um, one, both of them did their shows in tears, and and I must say, the the little show at Circle in the Square, they just those kids they just wept.

[39:43] Michael David: And then a curtain speech and whatever. And then at Ainomo, he gave a curtain speech, was quite quite wonderful. And I must say, not just about the racial thing, about the fact that every show out there now is having such a hard time, and they were particularly and then he introduced the cast from the uh from circle in the square that was in the back of the audience, and they sort of got up and wept together. But you know, those you know, that's happening now. It's like it's like the old days. It's uh it's it's it's really hard. So there's a show, I think, that in an in a in in the world before had they more dollars, and look, they found money to to do things. But I mean, I know people, everybody was just talking you gotta see the show you know you just it's really funny it's really good it's small so they could afford it looks to run the math look good but um uh I think it was two things obviously the climate was was fully against them number one but number two I think you needed a million or two in the bank to basically keep the heart pumping until you found they there was enough to do it or um found definitively that there weren't enclosed because that's that's the real problem you run it because it's your child longer and longer than you should this way you go eight to ten weeks I think by that time if they're not coming you've got a pretty good sense that you ought to you you ought to pull the plug and save whatever money you're you're you're you're you're gonna lose if you if you keep running so anyway.

[41:18] Michael David: Speaking of children um you talk about into the woods you know as something of like a a family show or potentially a family show uh I mean that it was that even really a market that existed on Broadway in the 80s or is that it seems like that certainly has in the age of Disney that's grown in a way that it hadn't been before. I think that's absolutely true and I and I'm not sure when we did into the woods look at at we started in the woods not knowing exactly what it was going to be and what buttons it was going to end up pushing and you know at some time with alcohol we can talk about the most recent one that's happening now with the change and my feelings about it and what's not happening on that stage and what is but the point is we didn't know so you know, I think we felt in whatever it was, 2002 or whatever we did the revival, that there was indeed a family audience. And that we had to tap into that family audience. But your point's a good one. I think in 86, 87, um, uh I think it was just, you know, though it wasn't done.

[42:23] Michael David: But so then with that revival in 2002, what um what could the strategy be to reach those people? Is it just a matter of marketing and advertising or what what was the the approach? And I mean I must I must say, well, first of all, having Vanessa was great. And when she was gonna do it, that was good. Um but um we we had we embarrassingly had a private girl school campaign, I remember, you know, because because you know it was sun time, so you know, you needed to be sort of savvy. So whose mom or grandmother saw the original or knew it, you know, would drag their kid from whatever, and from Nightingale or and uh uh but then no, I think it was just it was just it was just advertising and um and uh groups and that sort of thing. And again, we that that show didn't recoup. Um we could just not make the map work. No, just not run long enough. That was a tricky time in the economy though, too, wasn't it? Still kind of recovering from September 11th and everything.

[43:34] Michael David: Absolutely. No, it was rather we had things together. We were on the street everybody wants to be on, you know, there we were, we were, you know, but um no, it was and we had the booth. But the point is it just it just we we couldn't you know it it's it's not about what it costs, it's about what it costs to run. And um that's that that's the the thing you've got to make sure you get right. Um so anyway, it was just too expensive. Is that um difficult in uh in producing a show from the ground up, having that knowledge when people want to have a bigger orchestra and you know the things even a bigger cast size, things that are going to cost money on a weekly basis to to have that haunting you that you know it it can hamper the show's future.

[44:34] Michael David: Well, I mean, I think I mean you really are I mean your role includes being a responsible adult and taking care of fragile children. I mean, these things are the work of these, you know, of these artists and whatever, and the idea of bringing it here, bringing it to the street, which is so I I mean this respectfully, unwelcoming, skeptical, cynical, expensive, you know, um it it's it you ask a lot of a show. I mean, I had this argument with Rocco years ago about Tony Kushner Epic. Bringing it to Broadway or or leaving it or keeping it downtown. Downtown you could run and run. Broadway, you've got the megaphone. What do you do? Do you bring it there? But you're putting this show, which which which is which is a lot, it's a lot to take in, and it wasn't just one show, it was whatever.

Um to put that here and make it pay for itself. You weren't subsidized anymore, you were gonna pay for itself, was potent potentially forgive the it was potentially child abuse, you know. I mean you're gonna ask you gonna do that, ask the show to do that. And um and I and I suppose in the end, uh and I'm really not sure whether they recouped, I don't think they did recruit. But the thing is it did it did announce this amazing work is here. Uh but I think you could have probably kept it running at the Theater de Lees or whatever was downtown for a decade, you know, that people just needed to see if you wanted to, if you thought that was so um no, I think it's it's and it's I think it's only more dangerous now than it ever was.

[46:24] Michael David: Do you have any um thoughts, even fantastical about how this could be fixed as a problem in the industry? Um so much is going on right now that sort of flies in the face of how to keep the costs down. Um whether it's the actors are working too hard, so you're not gonna do ten out of twelves and you only can rehearse in a nonprofit now five days a week. Or the s prop shop can't so it makes things it makes fewer of things, but it also makes them cost more or take longer. Um and on the other hand, you know, should producers not have a bit of all the money that's taken in from ticket sales, whether it's Broadway.com or in any of the any of the ticket masters telecharged, etc. etc. I mean, there's not a nickel we get, but I mean the the amount of money that they take for doing that transaction is can be up to a third of the cost of the ticket on top of it that somebody else is getting who didn't take the risk, but basically is facilitating getting getting in.

So but that's been an ongoing conversation for you know 20 years it will continue. So I I don't know, and I think the other issue really too is audience. Um are those people who during the pandemic discovered you didn't need to spend all that money, you could put your feet up and see really great stuff on TV. The screen is bigger, I you can just lean back and do it, you know. Um we're just trying to get the garbage bags off the street when people are standing in line waiting to go into theaters because this is a special moment they paid a lot of money for. So let's just clean the streets. It's it's uh it's it's really tough out there now, I think it's sort of our digging out of this mess we're in. Not to mention the fact that it's still a mess, but you know, we're still battling COVID backstage, um even now.

[48:42] Michael David: So in your decades as a Broadway producer, do you feel that now is a time when there's more support and cooperation from the city from the mayor's office, or was it better at other times? Is it worse now? I I think look, I I think what was particularly a number of theater people and Chuck Schumer pulled off with the federal government was a miracle, and as you know, no one laid a dollar on us but for basketball, football, hockey, whatever, whatever. Um, and that in a way, I mean that was that was amazing. And um what we're getting, what we're struggling with now is how to live without support. Yeah. I mean, we we all and you know, we started in September when we thought things were were gonna clear up and then Omicron hit, you know, that pushed us backwards and you use that money to stay alive and do stuff and and now it's gone.

And um so but but but I have to say, look, I I just think what happened that that moment in history that you would never imagine would come together when you have this plague on the one hand and you've got the Democrats win the election and suddenly people are sensitive to what's happening, you know, and are able to uh to to step in and actually help was um amazing and and it was help that that that happened by both Democrats and Republicans.

[50:20] Michael David: So um I think we're grateful for it. Um yeah, I think people are more I think if there's a a feeble silver lining to this tragic thing that happened to our country and the world, it's that people discovered how important Times Square is to the to the healthy heart of New York City. Um, you know, our friends who run parking garages and bro restaurants or you know, I mean it's it's the theater's important. Whether we'll we'll we'll see what we'll see what happens. But um I'm hoping I'm hoping that you know something good will happen. But no one's slowing down, you know, everybody's trying to do stuff. It's a line of people for every theater who want to do the foolhardy thing and come on in. So more power to them. I've always said, you know, the future of our theater rests with names I don't know from places I've never been.

[51:11] Michael David: So it's um God what god god bless them. Well, Michael, with those people that you don't know coming in to do stuff, and certainly with the people in the government and throughout the country and every that contributed to the recovery effort. I'm sure that um all the work you've done and particularly into the woods has been a part of making them love the theater and believe in it enough to to do that. So uh I on behalf of everybody, I thank you for this great work.

[51:45] Michael David: Well, thanks a lot. You know, knock on wood. We'll die with our boots on. But but uh but anyway, anyway, take good care. And listen, there's not so much better out there. There now is a network of people around the country who want to see the thing that happens, and who are you know, and and God bless them too, because that's that's Broadway now. It's not what it used to be, you know, all those years ago when you went out. Anyway, anyway, nice to meet you.

[52:12] Ben Rimalower: Thank you for listening to Giants in the Sky, how Sondheim and Le Pine went into the woods on the Broadway podcast network. Look out for episode 21 with Carolyn Marlowe, understudy in the final workshop and original Broadway cast.