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[0:00] Ben Rimalower: Broadway Podcast Network presents Giants in the Sky: How Sondheim and Lapine Went Into the Woods with me, Ben Rimalower.

[0:08] Ben Rimalower: Today's guest, Carolyn Marlow, understudy in the final workshop and original Broadway cast.

[0:14] Ben Rimalower: Once upon a time.

[0:19] Carolyn Marlow: I understudied the roles of Cinderella's stepmother, Jack's mother, Cinderella's mother, Grandmother, and the Giant in the original Broadway production of Into the Woods, as well as the final workshops and Backers Auditions.

[0:33] Carolyn Marlow: I also appeared on Broadway in the original production of Sweeney Todd and did two tours of Sweeney Todd, originating the role of the Beggar Woman in Hal Prince's 1982 tour starring June Havoc.

[0:44] Carolyn Marlow: In addition to many off-Broadway and regional performance credits, I have been an esteemed faculty member at both Juilliard and the Manhattan School of Music, where I directed the American Musical Theater Ensemble for 33 years.

[1:05] Ben Rimalower: I had you on my list because I knew you'd been in the Broadway production of Into the Woods from the get-go.

[1:11] Carolyn Marlow: Right.

[1:11] Ben Rimalower: But, uh, dear Jeff Blumenkranz told me that maybe you'd also been involved earlier on in some workshop incarnations.

[1:18] Carolyn Marlow: Yeah, uh, he and I and one other, um, understudy, well that maybe, um, were involved in the pre-Broadway workshop.

[1:30] Carolyn Marlow: That's the one in '87 at 890 Broadway.

[1:33] Carolyn Marlow: Correct, at 890 in the summer of 1987.

[1:37] Carolyn Marlow: Uh, just when Michael Bennett died, I have to say.

[1:40] Carolyn Marlow: Um, at the Michael Bennett studios.

[1:42] Carolyn Marlow: We were in rehearsals when Michael Bennett died.

[1:45] Ben Rimalower: Oh, wow.

[1:46] Carolyn Marlow: Yeah, so we had a moment, you know, a moment of what was Sondheim in the room at that time?

[1:52] Carolyn Marlow: Um, Sondheim was there.

[1:54] Carolyn Marlow: Uh, I whether he was in the room at the time, we talked about Michael Bennett, I don't know.

[1:58] Carolyn Marlow: But yeah, oh yeah, he was totally at those for her at that workshop.

[2:02] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[2:03] Carolyn Marlow: Um, and um, yeah, so but Jeff probably told you some people, some of the actual performers were unavailable for the workshop.

[2:13] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[2:14] Carolyn Marlow: So then their understudies, uh, you know, did those roles and I had two people that were unavailable.

[2:23] Carolyn Marlow: So I was doing three roles.

[2:26] Ben Rimalower: Oh my.

[2:27] Carolyn Marlow: Yes, and including in the, um, in the Backers Audition performance, I was doing three roles in that performance.

[2:35] Ben Rimalower: So that was okay, that was Jack's mother, right?

[2:37] Carolyn Marlow: Jack's mother, Cinderella's mother, and Granny.

[2:41] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[2:42] Carolyn Marlow: Okay, so I was doing all three of those.

[2:44] Carolyn Marlow: Um, so it was quite a thing.

[2:47] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[2:47] Ben Rimalower: So okay, let's just back up for a second because I know that you'd been in Sweeney Todd and you had done the tour as the Beggar Woman.

[2:54] Ben Rimalower: So you had a, um, previously standing relationship with Stephen Sondheim.

[2:59] Carolyn Marlow: And Paul Gemignani, yes.

[3:00] Ben Rimalower: And Paul Gemignani, right?

[3:02] Carolyn Marlow: Right, right.

[3:03] Ben Rimalower: And, uh, now, uh, Sunday in the Park with George, had you auditioned for that or had you, I know maybe it overlapped with your Sweeney tour.

[3:12] Carolyn Marlow: I'm not, what was the timing for you like that?

[3:14] Carolyn Marlow: You know, I don't, that's interesting.

[3:16] Carolyn Marlow: I did not audition for Sunday, and I have no idea why.

[3:23] Carolyn Marlow: Um, I could have been, I worked a lot, uh, leading into Into the Woods.

[3:32] Carolyn Marlow: Well, uh, sorry, I, I was pregnant and had a baby.

[3:36] Ben Rimalower: Oh, well, Mazel Tov, very belatedly.

[3:39] Carolyn Marlow: Very belatedly, right?

[3:41] Carolyn Marlow: Um, which is why I didn't audition for the first inception of Into the Woods, which was in La Jolla.

[3:48] Ben Rimalower: Got it.

[3:49] Carolyn Marlow: Right.

[3:49] Carolyn Marlow: So, um, my, you know, Into the Woods was really right up my alley and so my aunt, my agent was like, you know, I know Carolyn that you're nine months pregnant, but do you think you could just, and I was like, no, I can't do that.

[4:06] Carolyn Marlow: Um, so as far as Sunday is concerned, um, I, I, I don't remember that I might have been out of town working because I worked a lot leading up to my pregnancy actually.

[4:06] Ben Rimalower: Um, and had you seen Sunday in the Park with George?

[4:06] Carolyn Marlow: Well, yeah, I saw it at, um, I saw the first act at Playwrights Horizons.

[4:32] Ben Rimalower: Cool.

[4:32] Carolyn Marlow: Right, so that's, that was their, I feel like that was their first performance of it, and so I saw it there, only act one, and then later I saw it on Broadway.

[4:43] Carolyn Marlow: Um, and there were a number of people who were in it who were also in Into the Woods.

[4:49] Ben Rimalower: Of course, and I asked because there's such a specific kind of aesthetic to that Sondheim-Lapine collaboration.

[4:57] Ben Rimalower: So I was curious, but clearly you, you were familiar with that, um, that in twice two different iterations.

[4:57] Ben Rimalower: And so, um, you go in for the audition for Into the Woods and was, would this be like right after they got back from San Diego, like early '87?

[5:13] Carolyn Marlow: Okay, so yes, it would have had to been because I will, I'm gonna say it was probably in the winter of '87, like February, March, something in there is probably when it was, and then we went into, uh, the workshop in maybe July, something like that.

[5:32] Ben Rimalower: And when you say the Backers Audition, you're talking about, um, earlier in the spring or as the culmination of the workshop?

[5:40] Carolyn Marlow: Gotcha.

[5:43] Carolyn Marlow: O Into the Woods, a performance for a whole bunch of people, a lot of them backers, agents, uh, that community.

[5:54] Carolyn Marlow: Um, that's why I called it a Backers Audition.

[5:57] Ben Rimalower: Sure.

[5:57] Ben Rimalower: And is that where you had the three different endings where everybody died or the Baker's wife lived and all the alternatives?

[6:05] Carolyn Marlow: I know nothing about that.

[6:07] Ben Rimalower: Fascinating.

[6:08] Carolyn Marlow: Nothing about that.

[6:09] Carolyn Marlow: I, I first of all, that would have been the second act.

[6:12] Carolyn Marlow: And we only did act one.

[6:14] Carolyn Marlow: Ah, in the, uh, in the workshop.

[6:17] Carolyn Marlow: So, um, so yeah, I really don't know about that.

[6:22] Carolyn Marlow: You, they did the second act at La Jolla and I wasn't involved in that until, I'm not sure.

[6:27] Carolyn Marlow: I mean, certainly, uh, certainly things were changed.

[6:30] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[6:31] Carolyn Marlow: I mean, and things were changed when we were on Broadway.

[6:34] Carolyn Marlow: Um, whole numbers were cut.

[6:36] Carolyn Marlow: Um, whole numbers were written.

[6:38] Carolyn Marlow: Yeah.

[6:39] Carolyn Marlow: Um, "Stay with Me" was like an 11th hour, uh, piece written for Bernadette Peters.

[6:46] Carolyn Marlow: Uh, not burned to death, I'm sorry, for the Witch.

[6:48] Carolyn Marlow: It could have been burned to death at that point, but for the Witch.

[6:51] Carolyn Marlow: Um, they felt that she needed a, you know, she needed a solo of that nature.

[6:57] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[6:57] Carolyn Marlow: So, and I think that might have been while we were actually in the Broadway rehearsals while we were on, you know, in the theater on Broadway.

[7:05] Carolyn Marlow: So a lot of things changed.

[7:07] Ben Rimalower: And so, um, do you remember then from that workshop Backers Audition, who else was in the cast?

[7:15] Carolyn Marlow: Yes.

[7:16] Carolyn Marlow: Um, I mean, it's, you know, talking about Playwrights Horizons, Sunday in the Park with George.

[7:22] Carolyn Marlow: I'm sure you know James Lapine wrote that wonderful book.

[7:25] Carolyn Marlow: Yes, putting it together.

[7:27] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[7:27] Carolyn Marlow: But it was such a great, um, uh, sort of cataloging between because it's pre-internet, bringing together all these different people's recollections to sort of establish what actually was, you know, uh, the timeline of how the show came to be.

[7:45] Ben Rimalower: Um, and um, that's what inspired me to want to do this podcast because there's so, you know, just different traces from different people.

[7:53] Carolyn Marlow: James Lapine at one point didn't even remember that there'd been a reading of Into the Woods at Playwrights Horizons, like so.

[8:01] Carolyn Marlow: It's like, you know, uh, everybody not Into the Woods, Sunday in the Park, really Into the Woods, also there was not to my knowledge.

[8:09] Carolyn Marlow: I had no involvement in anything of Playwrights Horizons.

[8:12] Carolyn Marlow: But there was, there was a reading, there was a workshop at Playwrights Horizons, um, prior to San Diego.

[8:17] Carolyn Marlow: Um, so it's like everyone is at, um, has a different things that have stayed in their memory.

[8:23] Ben Rimalower: So, you know, even something as basic as the cast list that would seem to be, uh, not that, um, you know, it's been decades and decades.

[8:33] Ben Rimalower: So any individual names you can remember, anything you, uh, okay, I can.

[8:38] Carolyn Marlow: Um, uh, first of all, there were the major people that were in it on Broadway, a lot of them.

[8:44] Carolyn Marlow: So Joanna, Chip, um, uh, Joanna, Chip, Joy Franz, um, who I'm both Lauren and Kay.

[8:55] Carolyn Marlow: Do you know who I'm talking about when I say those names?

[8:57] Ben Rimalower: Of course.

[8:57] Carolyn Marlow: Okay, both Lauren and Kay.

[8:59] Carolyn Marlow: Um, who else?

[9:01] Carolyn Marlow: Ooh, uh, uh, Ben, Jack, he was, he was in it.

[9:06] Carolyn Marlow: Um, trying to think who else is in the, okay, so not the Witch.

[9:11] Carolyn Marlow: The two princes.

[9:13] Carolyn Marlow: I'm sure Jeff told you about the two princes in the workshop performance, what happened there.

[9:18] Carolyn Marlow: It was, uh, Burke Moses and Jeff, and yeah, and Burke was not playing the role he was supposed to be playing.

[9:24] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[9:25] Carolyn Marlow: He was playing his understudy role, yeah.

[9:28] Carolyn Marlow: Um, and then me, and then not Barbara Bryne, not Merle Louise, because that was playing their parts, um, and most quite interestingly is the, um, is the narrator, Old Man in the Woods.

[9:44] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[9:44] Carolyn Marlow: So did Jeff tell you who was, who the narrator was?

[9:47] Ben Rimalower: No.

[9:47] Carolyn Marlow: Henry Morgan.

[9:49] Ben Rimalower: Whoa.

[9:50] Carolyn Marlow: Henry Morgan was the narrator in the workshop production.

[9:55] Carolyn Marlow: Wow.

[9:55] Carolyn Marlow: And at that time, the narrator was not going to be the Old Man in the Woods.

[10:00] Carolyn Marlow: It was going to be two separate individuals.

[10:03] Carolyn Marlow: Um, and I don't know why Henry opted or somebody else opted for him not to do the Broadway show, but he did not.

[10:12] Carolyn Marlow: Um, then it was Tom Aldridge, and then Tom played both the narrator and, uh, Old Man in the Woods, but that was very interesting, having Henry Morgan, um, you know, be the narrator in the workshop performance.

[10:27] Carolyn Marlow: And, um, you mentioned that you were covering, um, Barbara and, and, uh, Merle.

[10:32] Carolyn Marlow: So you were Jack's mother and Cinderella's mother and Granny.

[10:36] Carolyn Marlow: Were you also the Giant?

[10:37] Carolyn Marlow: No, because we didn't do the second act.

[10:39] Carolyn Marlow: Ah, yes, you did mention that.

[10:43] Carolyn Marlow: And Betty Buckley was the Witch.

[10:45] Carolyn Marlow: Is that, that's right?

[10:46] Carolyn Marlow: For the second week.

[10:47] Carolyn Marlow: So we, we had two weeks of rehearsal.

[10:51] Carolyn Marlow: The first week, she was not available.

[10:54] Carolyn Marlow: So Suzanne Douglas was the Witch because she was the first understudy for the Witch.

[11:00] Ben Rimalower: Do you know anything about Suzanne?

[11:02] Carolyn Marlow: Uh, Jeff said that she was brilliant and that she's sadly no longer with us, but that's...

[11:02] Carolyn Marlow: Yes, yes, that is correct.

[11:09] Carolyn Marlow: Um, and so she was, you know, uh, for the first week, and then Betty came in, and then, uh, you know, and then you know what happened.

[11:20] Ben Rimalower: Well, I don't know.

[11:21] Carolyn Marlow: You know, there's conflicting stories about that too.

[11:23] Carolyn Marlow: I mean, everyone has a different, um...

[11:23] Carolyn Marlow: Oh, well, I certainly don't have the true down low on that.

[11:31] Carolyn Marlow: Okay.

[11:32] Carolyn Marlow: I only know that that either they bought her out or they bought Burke Moses out.

[11:39] Carolyn Marlow: Uh, it was difficult.

[11:41] Carolyn Marlow: It was difficult to judge her correctly.

[11:45] Carolyn Marlow: She was constantly arguing with James, constantly telling James that this wasn't going to work, that wasn't gonna work.

[11:51] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[11:54] Carolyn Marlow: And, um, and you know, I, I, I didn't know James well then.

[12:00] Carolyn Marlow: I, as we went on, we all, everybody got to know everybody better.

[12:04] Carolyn Marlow: It occurs to me that a stronger director, I don't, I, a man with more directing experience and more confident in himself, might have been able to handle that.

[12:16] Carolyn Marlow: Yeah, but see, I think that was not the case, and I think James felt that she was gonna walk all over him, and he did not want that.

[12:26] Carolyn Marlow: So it's just interesting.

[12:27] Carolyn Marlow: Um, as someone who's been a fan of so much of Betty's work in so many shows, you know, you one can't help but imagine that she might have been really brilliant in that part.

[12:38] Carolyn Marlow: Yeah, right. Um especially vocally. I mean, it's I can only dream of like what her voice would have sounded like, you know.

[12:45] Right. It would have said it would have, you know, it would have been great. Um, and uh, and of course, before we ever had rehearsals, and we knew that Betty Buckley was gonna be the witch. Um, everyone's oh my god, it's gonna be fabulous. Uh and then that happened. Um, so it was very peculiar. I will tell you, you didn't ask, but I will tell you another situation with the role of the witch.

[13:10] Oh, yeah, please. As you may or may not know, it was played by a woman named Ellen Foley.

[13:17] Oh, yeah. In La Jolla, and I've got I didn't see that production, I didn't know who Ellen Foley was. Yeah, but at any rate, as Into the Woods went on, Bernadette left, she was replaced by Felicia Rashad, and then I think Nancy Dusot, maybe somebody I can't remember.

[13:33] Betsy Joclin for a while. Betsy, oh yeah, Betsy, of course, because yeah, that took them six months to get Felicia, so yeah, she took over right away from Bernadette. Um so finally, and the final literal when we're like, you know, a month from closing, okay, they finally bring in Ellen Foley to do the final witch, okay. Can I just say we were all like this? She was so good.

[14:02] Oh wow, it was she was so good. It was um, and this you probably don't want to print this, but she was definitely better than some of the replacements that had come in. If you if you are happy with that being out there, I've concluded that.

[14:21] I mean, that's a I mean I did talk to Ellen Foley for this. Um I wish that I had talked to you first so that I could have passed that on, but hopefully she'll she'll listen. Um that's what I'm cool to hear.

[14:33] I mean, I I know um there are little bits of clips on the internet, and she certainly seems good. And I, you know, I've seen her in um different movies and TV shows and heard her music.

[14:44] Very talented. But that's great to hear that uh that she made that impression in the you know in the final version because it was a different show in San Diego.

[14:53] And by then, make no mistake, by then, you know, those of us who stayed with the show for the whole thing were like this. We're like really weary.

[15:02] And then she came in and put this whole new whatever onto it, and she was she was really really good, and you know, and personally I felt like well, maybe she wasn't available, but I felt like you know, she didn't have a name, but I felt like she should have been brought in earlier if she could have been like maybe after Felicia.

[15:27] Do you know what I mean? I think she was in um Me and My Girl on Broadway at that time.

[15:32] Oh, at that time, okay.

[15:34] So she was unavailable.

[15:35] Yeah, I see.

[15:36] Okay, well, there you are. Um uh Marianne Plunkett uh in Me and My Girl.

[15:41] She she replaced Marianne.

[15:44] Yeah.

[15:44] Uh I see.

[15:45] I I saw Marianne Plunkett, but I didn't see uh but I mean, so and I think she played that part for a while and you know.

[15:52] I see, and so they're right, got it. It ran a lot, it even kept running after after Ellen left.

[15:58] Um, I think Judy Blazer was the final lady or whatever that character's name is.

[16:04] Yeah.

[16:05] But Into the Woods is the show I know better than Me and My Girl.

[16:09] Um but uh that so well that's interesting. Could you tell me anything specific about Ellen's performance that made it so?

[16:12] I can't, I can't as good. It's too long ago. Um it's just that I was like, whoa, you know, yeah.

[16:23] She and I knew why they didn't consider her right from the get-go. They were looking for a star, you know.

[16:29] Yeah.

[16:31] Well, that Betty had won a Tony and done a television show.

[16:35] Of course, yes.

[16:36] And and then Bernadette had just as much, you know.

[16:40] Um, so uh and it would have been uh I'm certain it would have been a very different performance.

[16:45] Yeah, uh if Betty had done it than um Bernadette.

[16:50] Yeah, so uh you do that backers audition in July, you said.

[16:55] Yeah.

[16:56] Yes, I would say middle of summer, maybe the very beginning of August, somewhere dead center summer.

[17:01] Wow, I mean beginning of August, because you opened in November and started previews in October.

[17:08] Yeah.

[17:08] So uh I assume you started we we had like I I would say we had like a month off.

[17:08] A month off.

[17:15] Yeah, something like that. When did when did you find out that Betty was out?

[17:21] Oh, I don't remember.

[17:23] Or but Bernadette was in. Was that one and the same, or what did you know the part was open and they were casting?

[17:29] I did not know that. It's possible I found out the two at the same time.

[17:33] I I really don't um I don't I don't remember when we found out about Burke either.

[17:40] Um I can't remember.

[17:41] And now Jeff said that at least for him as the understudy to Jack and Rapunzel's Prince, he was not in uh uh what did they say? You know, he wasn't working back on Into the Woods until they moved into the Martin Beck.

[17:58] Was that the same for you, or did you come to rehearsals in the studio prior to that?

[18:03] Wait, I'm not Ben, I'm not quite understanding what you're saying.

[18:07] So Jeff said he had done the workshop and he knew that he was hired for Broadway, but I guess his contract didn't start until they moved into the theater.

[18:15] And I'm curious if you remember whether that was the same for you or were you in the I'm sure it was.

[18:20] Yeah.

[18:20] I'm sure that it I'm I you know I I don't know.

[18:25] That would have been scary.

[18:27] Yeah, right. Well, I guess it was a long preview period, and you had already both of you and maybe the other understudies had already workshopped it so it wasn't like coming in cold.

[18:37] Yeah, I know, but I could see if your contract, no, we had to have had a contract for Broadway.

[18:43] I don't know about Jeff, but that's why.

[18:46] Sorry, I maybe I put that wrong. He had the contract, but he wasn't uh he wasn't working.

[18:51] He had time off until uh until they were in the theater for tech.

[18:58] Well, that's that's not exactly true. We had rehearsals in the theater before tech.

[19:04] Sorry, uh he wasn't he didn't rehearse the Broadway production of Into the Woods in the studio.

[19:10] In other words, he did the workshop and then while Oh no, correct.

[19:13] We did once the workshop was over, we moved into the theater in about a month.

[19:13] We moved into the theater and had rehearsals in the as the understudies.

[19:23] Um, no, no, no, no.

[19:24] Oh, I see.

[19:25] No, no. We uh we had we didn't have rehearsals, it was just the the oh, you're saying that nobody in the cast rehearsed the Broadway production in a studio at all.

[19:37] I'm confused about what you mean by studio.

[19:40] I mean in somewhere that's not the Martin Beck Theater.

[19:44] I mean, most shows rehearse in a rehearsal.

[19:46] You mean after the workshop, after the workshop before moving into the Martin Beck?

[19:51] You know, that could be I I was unaware of that.

[19:53] I personally did nothing until we moved in, until we the went into the theater.

[19:58] Yeah, so it's possible that they did they did, particularly for those like Barbara, Merle, they had to have had some rehearsal, I would think.

[20:07] Yeah, because changes were made during the workshop from what they knew from La Jolla.

[20:12] Yeah, I would think so.

[20:14] Yeah, so okay, so um so then assuming that that happened, you started rehearsals at the Martin Beck.

[20:23] So this would have been like um the cast on stage and not yet in costume with just correct, right?

[20:30] Not yet, not yet, and under studies in the house, right?

[20:33] Costumes, uh you know, perfor um principals on stage, and then at some point, um, and then at some point they started putting them into costume.

[20:44] And um, did anybody tell you? Did you talk to Bob Westenberg?

[20:48] Yes.

[20:49] Did he tell you about his first costume?

[20:52] I guess I guess there were several drafts of that uh that costume.

[20:57] The first costume he had on the Broadway production, they came out for the costume parade, and he had a penis.

[21:03] Okay, it had a penis, but it evidently was a little larger than they had then, and so he was up on the stage doing all these poses, and every time he would do this, the little penis would do that.

[21:18] And we laughed our butts off.

[21:22] But then they changed it.

[21:23] It was obviously a little too much for you know for Little Red Riding Hood.

[21:28] For yeah, for I think for everybody.

[21:30] I mean, right.

[21:32] A student matinee with that uh costume.

[21:36] Right.

[21:37] Um, so uh okay, and so I I know that there were a lot of changes made uh during the preview process.

[21:45] Um do I was there?

[21:48] I guess I'm curious because it's different now, you know, where everything is on computers.

[21:53] Um like was that a lot? I imagine, especially for the understudies, you must have constantly just been getting new pages, and did you have to coordinate them into a yeah uh yeah, and of course, any music that you got was handwritten.

[22:09] Wow, right.

[22:10] It was all handwritten.

[22:11] It wasn't, you know, it wasn't like printed music, you know.

[22:15] Um, yeah, we were constantly getting new new pages, constantly opening the script, taking this out, putting.

[22:22] I actually have two of my original scripts.

[22:24] One is the first and the other is a second.

[22:27] So the first one is what we first have, we're working with in the workshop, and then the second one is a whole different script that's well, no, it's not a whole different script, but it's a different manuscript that's got a whole bunch of you know changes in it.

[22:40] Fascinating.

[22:40] Do you have those handy? Are they nearby?

[22:43] Uh they're probably over there.

[22:47] I mean, at some point, if you wanted to like email me like a photo of a page, that would be okay.

[22:52] I can do that.

[22:53] I don't want to do that right now, but I can I can start.

[22:55] Yeah, yeah, sure.

[22:56] Whenever that would be great to look at.

[22:58] Um, I actually was at the James Lapine um archives at Yale last week and I'm gonna go back tomorrow but there's even that is there's holes in what is in there I'm just even curious just to see right dates and even fonts.

[23:14] I mean it's just hard to think of like I mean would there be confusion when you got new pages and you had to it was on was it each person's responsibility to maintain their own script with yes it it was you got the pages but it was your responsibility and I you know I'm I'm thinking to myself this had to have been they had to have been typed up on a typewriter.

[23:35] Yeah I don't think we had computers right yeah people were using to to do that had to been typed up on a typewriter and then copies like mimic however they may copies and then like what would happen if a page ended uh you know if the pages didn't line up with where the page endings would be did you have black magic marker just crossed of course right if there was a problem you you know you had you had to change it wow I mean that is a lot of um work that each person oh those were the days yes but we didn't think of it that way this is what it was you know it's almost like everybody needs their own secretary just to like learn this show right that's amazing and uh so then well do you remember the first time that you went on?

[23:35] Oh yes and which I was the first person to go on I was the first understudy to go on.

[23:35] Uh no, we had opened. Um and I went on for I'm I have a funny little story about that.

[24:36] Wow, was that during previews or shortly after opening?

[24:37] It's not it's not long. Um I went on, I was the first person to go on for Barbara Brynn.

[24:42] Yeah.

[24:42] And um, which was great because I had already done the role.

[24:47] Do you know what I'm saying?

[24:48] Yeah.

[24:48] So when I say great, I mean everybody was like, oh God, this is good.

[24:52] Um and I was for like the matinee and the evening performance.

[24:56] And so I did the matinee.

[24:57] Yeah.

[24:58] And after the matinee, uh, the first person to come into my dressing room is um James Lapine.

[25:06] James knocks on the door and comes in and he tells me, Oh, you were great, you were great, yada yada yada, and goes, now there's this one part here.

[25:14] Carolyn Marlow: I would like you to do this when you come to that particular part. I write the note for tonight's performance. So I write the note down. I'm like, okay, great, thanks. Okay, bye. See you later. Knock, knock, knock. Next person is Stephen Sondheim. Okay, who comes in? Well, Carol Carolyn. It was very good. It was very good. Let's talk about a few things. So this place right here, I would like you to do this. It was the exact opposite of what Le Pine had told me to do. Oh wow. The exact opposite. Okay. I said nothing. I'm like, hmm, okay, God, thank you, Stephen. Thanks, thanks, Steve. So then I'm like, oh my God, what do I do? So I went to Paul Jem and Yaani. Paul, what do I do? And Paul said, go with Steve.

And that's what I did. Yeah. Oh. And did you I Paul had worked with Steve more than James, you understand? Um, and I went with Steve and I never heard anything about it. James said, So you played that part many times, I would have said. Yes, yeah, yeah. And so you didn't, it's not like James kept giving you that note again. No, no, he didn't. He didn't, but he might have gone off thinking, well, she's an idiot. You know what I mean? Um, but yeah, it was a very it was an awkward moment. Um, but yeah, I was the first to go on. And um uh over the run, um, which part did you go on for the most? Joy.

[26:47] Carolyn Marlow: Joy friends. Oh, yeah. For certain short. Yes, yeah. Oh, that's when you've done the show for a long time, okay. You get to a point where you're like, you know, I really have a gl another glass of wine tonight, you know, or whatever. Of course, Joy's gonna hear this and flip out. Um, or you know, whatever. And um, and you call in, you know, and then the understudy goes on. But I went on for joy more than anybody, absolutely. And um, was that uh was that it was I assume that was maybe in was that an easier part to go on for because it was less singing, or was it less fun because it was less singing? Um let me say that um I I can't it's difficult to you know make a bar but the Jack's mother is the larger role, and I know Jack's Mother's supposed to be one of the most difficult parts to sing in the score.

Not for Carolyn Muller. No, because um Barbara Brennan. Well, no, you know, Joy Franz was saying that because she um wait, I'm sorry, that Barbara that the that Jack's mother was a difficulty replaced Pamela Myers in the revival in 2002 as Jack's mother.

[28:07] Carolyn Marlow: Oh wow, and uh wait, am I getting that backwards? No, she's sorry, she replaced Pamela Myers as the stepmother. She was just opining that that part is extremely difficult to sing. That was all. It's uh yeah, not for definitely high. Yeah. The you mean Jack's mother's low. It's it's low. Jack's mother is is low almost. That sounds like a soprano talking, Carolyn, because uh Paul Ford says she has to sing like a G in the um uh the opening number, and that like you know I guess the fact of the matter is I was a soprano, all right. So the stepmother has to sing a B flat in the a B flat in the in the opening for sure. Wow, but not on a solo line. No, but it's she's the only one up there. Wow, she's the only one on the B flat.

So yeah, um, so but for a soprano, Joy and I, uh, not really, you know, not really an issue. The thing the one I dislike the most was Merle Louise's roles. Ah that was so difficult. So many costume changes, changes going up and getting going under the stage, and you may not know this, crawling up and getting out the trapdoor to come out of out of the wolf's body. It's it's very difficult.

[29:29] Carolyn Marlow: And as Cinderella's mother, you're in a tree with a screen that you have to see the conductor through, and it's just was a very um difficultally difficult uh role to do. You have to sing really pretty as Cinderella's mother. Right. Like a heavenly angel guardian angel. Yeah, exactly. Which isn't an issue, it's that you're in this effing tree with the screen. What's the screen for? Because they because it was a lighting situation. See, it was a tree until the light hit it, and then the mother came out. So that's what I'm saying. You're singing through this thing. Um the sound wasn't an issue because you have a body mic. Yes, it's seeing the conductor. Um you know, which was Messi nowadays, they could give you like a little tiny uh yeah, a little video inside the hook, but not then.

No, right. Um, so that was that that was the most difficult, and it was really a toss up uh between uh Jack's mother and um and and Cinderella's stepmother, between which I would, you know, again, Jack's mother's a larger role, so of course, you know.

[30:44] Carolyn Marlow: There you go. And so, and with the giant, where did you go to do the voice from? Have you seen the revival? Yes. Okay, well, this is a thing that those of us who are in the original production are like, what the hell? Okay, you're off stage on a microphone that disturbs your voice, and then other stuff is happening on stage. Why they had this woman walk out with a microphone on the stage. I have I have no idea, but that's what you did. You were off stage on the side, off stage. Um, interestingly, though, you're off stage on a microphone, but you the you, the giant, okay, is off stage looking on stage at the other people who are talking to them. Do you understand what I'm saying? They're looking at each other. Opposite direction. Oh no, they're looking at you. See, they're looking off stage. You are off stage.

[31:42] Carolyn Marlow: Oh, that's so cool. Yeah, looking at them. So I never knew that. That is really interesting. So you actually got to interact. Yeah, you really had to do that because you really had to see when this was going to happen so that you could say this. So it was very interesting. And um, I'm not sure why they changed that for the revival. I don't know. I personally enjoyed the revival. Yeah. Um, but there were, as all of us would have little, you know, little issues like that. I'm also realizing now that so not only does she have to do all the costume changes that you would have had to do, and Merle would have had to do from granny back and forth to Cinderella's mother, she has the added costume changes because now the giant has to be visible. No, you weren't visible. She is the giant is not visible.

[32:35] Carolyn Marlow: In the revival, she's visible. Oh, yes, yeah. I I don't know. So you, but I'm saying they added another half, uh they added 50% more costume changes for well, not that they had a lot of costume back. That's true. That's true. Okay, I'm like seriously. Um not that they yeah, so uh, but I mean, you know, she uh you because you you could have when you were the giant, you just were wearing whatever your most recent costume was. Yes, whatever I was about to go off, just whatever that costume is nobody saw you. You were just in your whatever costume talking on the microphone, looking at them as they were looking up, but they could see you.

[33:14] Carolyn Marlow: Yeah, it was like that. Um I wanted to uh tell you something. Yeah, in case I forget it. I don't know if you're interested in this or not. I happen to own um one of the original colored Hirschfeld prints of Into the Woods gorgeous there were he made 11 prints mine is number 26 and mine is signed by everybody Le Pine Sondheim everything gorgeous if you're interested in that I'll send you a picture of it. Please do absolutely quite light though I have to say the signatures are you know are are pretty light but everything's okay the main thing is the art anyway um yeah yeah yeah oh no that stuff is great I mean all those things for social media they'll really be able to use for the podcast network um I and selfishly I just want to see it um but uh that's interesting and then so um do you remember I guess as understudies were you the ones that had to do most of the rehearsing with the replacement cast members before they came in um that's a very interesting question then um that's probably true I hadn't thought about that but yeah that would have been us rehearsing them before the put in yeah exactly we know what a put in yeah yeah okay yeah so um before that yeah that's probably true it would have been us rehearsing with the with the replacements um yeah yeah yep yep yep and I mean it's you know it was a uh two year run essentially would what was I been I'm trying to get in touch with someone from the stage management because I'd love to get that perspective too.

[34:56] Carolyn Marlow: Is Frank still alive? It's I I haven't found that out, but it seems like maybe not because I he doesn't seem to be on the internet. But um but I've been I'm talking to someone at the stage management association to try to get even like a production assistant. You know. I just want to Well Marianne King is still uh is still alive. I'm a I'm friends with her on Facebook. Oh, are you? Uh you know, I'll I will look through your friends and see if I can find her there. Otherwise I'll ask you for help. But yeah, Marianne King was one of these stage managers. Yeah, yeah. I imagine that must have been a pretty solid um stage management department to run that kind of a show with all those special effects and and such a large active ensemble and replacement casting.

[35:42] Carolyn Marlow: Yeah, yeah, it was, and and I had worked with Frank before. Um and uh I just thought Frank Kartenstein was the best. Yeah, I I really did. I thought he was a just a terrific stage manager, he took everything very seriously, and he, you know, um uh if you had a complaint, he dealt with that complaint and you know, in the best way possible. Um, and um his wife, if he is Melanie Vaughn, I don't know if you know. Oh, I didn't know that, sure, from um Sunday in the park with George and Sweeney. Yeah, um, I don't know again if I I haven't been in contact with Melanie in years. She and I did uh Sweeney together.

[36:27] Carolyn Marlow: Yeah, sure. She was Joanna when you were the beggar woman. When I was a beggar woman, um, but they were married, and so uh yeah, um yeah, but he was great, and the whole that they were all they were all you know really good. Um the only problem is we was sometimes we're with Chip Zion. Ship mostly had issues with understudies and replacements, huh? And I say that because the problem was that you weren't doing necessarily exactly what he was used to.

[37:01] Carolyn Marlow: Yeah. And then he would start giving you notes and start, it wasn't just me, it was other people replacements for different things. Yeah. Um, so I think that was probably, you know, the issue. I wonder if it's a slippery slope where when someone is in understudy, uh, you're trying to help them learn the show. Oh, okay, sweetheart. This at this line you want to come upstage. You got it. Good job. Yeah. I'm here for you. Anything you need. Not like that. You know, and then it becomes more and more like that would have been fine. That's not the way that's not the way it was done. No, no, no. It was like the subtext was you stupid fool. Why you know.

[37:45] Carolyn Marlow: I was just trying to give him the benefit of the doubt.

[37:47] Ben Rimalower: Well, that's I know, I know, and you're doing a really good job. Uh, what about um any of the other replacements? I mean, I know you mentioned um Felicia and Nancy Duceau, and of course Ellen Foley, and then uh I, you know, there was all there was lots of replacements.

[38:01] Carolyn Marlow: Oh, there were. Um I I don't have any real uh you know, real stories about that or issues with any really any of the replacements. I thought they were all, you know, they were all some were better than others, but um, they were all fine to get along with, they were all uh very very nice to the understudies and um, you know, and being an understudy is a whole world.

[38:30] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[38:31] Carolyn Marlow: It's a whole different world than in those days, because in those days you had to be at the theater for the whole performance. Now I don't think you do. Now I think you just have to be within a certain distance of the theater.

[38:44] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[38:45] Carolyn Marlow: Yeah. Yeah. But in those days, no. We were, you know, we had our we had pretty much our own floor at the Martin Beck. And uh we were very close. And you know, it's a whole world. We played a lot of games, a lot of $20,000 pyramid, a lot of, you know. So it was, and in some instances, there were times it was like we were like up there playing our games and having a good time, and Frank would come up and say, You're on, because yada yada. And we would be like, Oh my God, uh, I'm a game, Frank, rather than going on. So it's a very and this was like you and Jeff and who Terry Burrell, uh Gene. Um they changed over time. The original understudy, uh, Greg Zirkel, uh Michael Piantek, yeah um Judith Moore, who is passed away. Um, but yeah, so it was a we were, you know, became uh a really and those changed too. Uh not all of us stayed until the bitter end. I was one who stayed. Although I have to say I didn't know it was gonna close.

[40:01] Ben Rimalower: Really?

[40:03] Carolyn Marlow: No, they do that's what they do. They do it pretty suddenly. They don't go, well, you've got two months and then we're gonna close. They don't do that. Um, they they tell you like the week before. That's generally what they do. Um, and um, I was on vacation when that notice, I was on my vacation when that notice came out, but I had given my notice.

[40:25] Ben Rimalower: Oh, I had I was done, I had a kid, I was done. I had writed enough is enough. I had given my notice, I went on vacation, I came back. Did you hear the show's closing in a week?

[40:36] Carolyn Marlow: Well, now I'd given my notice, which is gonna be an issue now for unemployment.

[40:41] Ben Rimalower: Oh no.

[40:42] Carolyn Marlow: So I went to Frank Hartenstein and I said, Can I withdraw my notice by any chance? And he said, Yes, let me just and so then I didn't have any, yeah, I didn't have any issues with that.

[40:55] Ben Rimalower: I'm glad to hear that. Um and uh you did did you consider going on the tour at any point with the I guess you wouldn't have with the kid.

[41:04] Carolyn Marlow: I was offered the tour. I was I was offered um the Cinderella's stepmother and the understudy to the witch. Um and I turned it down because at that point I had a four-year-old, yeah, four-year-old child and a husband, and um I I stopped going on the road for more than like uh you know a month, yeah. Once I had, you know, once I had that that child.

[41:32] Ben Rimalower: Um had you covered the witch at all in New York.

[41:35] Carolyn Marlow: No, I had not. And um I I didn't, I originally auditioned for exactly what I got. Yeah. But at the end of my first audition, Paul um said, I want you to understudy for the witch. I want you to audition for the witch. And so he I they coached me on the music, they gave me the script. Um, and uh, and I came back and did, you know, all of that. Um, but they they went with Susan. They knew Joy was going to be the second understudy. They needed the first understudy. Yeah. Um, but they they decided to go with Suzanne Douglas. So I auditioned, I loined it, but I didn't get it.

[42:20] Ben Rimalower: Gotcha. Um, well, I'll just have to dream about what your witch might.

[42:25] Carolyn Marlow: Me too. Now, oh, I have one more question about Sweeney Todd off topic, speaking of you, um uh my my imagining you singing, because uh was that when you did that second tour of Sweeney with like uh June Havoc and the one with Melanie, were did you have the other song for the beggar woman, that lullaby?

[42:44] Carolyn Marlow: No. Uh that is so interesting, that song, because um I knew he had written that song, and it's hard for me to remember exactly what happened with that. I mean, maybe it w well no, because it's not in the video. Is it in the video? No, I don't think that um like Merle Louise ever did it. No, no, the video, which was made in California. Yeah, but she was in that too, wasn't she?

[43:13] Ben Rimalower: No, she was not.

[43:14] Carolyn Marlow: Uh-huh.

[43:14] Ben Rimalower: That was Sarah something or other.

[43:17] Carolyn Marlow: Oh yes, Sarah. Uh wait, no, I'm not thinking of Sarah Rice.

[43:20] Ben Rimalower: That's amazing.

[43:21] Carolyn Marlow: No, not Sarah Rice. No, it's I know you're right though. It's Sarah. I don't remember her name, but uh but I because I thought that the song was written for the London production and then put in like when he did it at when Hal did it at City Opera. Maybe. And I knew that timing was around the time of like the tour. So I thought maybe that that you might have had it then, but I guess.

[43:43] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, you know, no, and I'll tell you, it's interesting about that because I knew about the song, I was told about the song, and that um I might have to sing the song. And I and it was bad in my voice. It just was bad for me. I don't know why. And I was like, Oh my god, I this is such a great role for me, but I can't. I don't my voice isn't working with the song. Thank god I never had to sing it.

[44:09] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Well, listen, you should try it again. I'm sure your voice has changed. Maybe you'll like it in your voice now.

[44:14] Carolyn Marlow: Oh, it's changed a lot. Let me just say um there. So there's one other thing. I have a list here. Tell me, please. And that is did anybody did anybody talk to you about Dick Cavot?

[44:29] Carolyn Marlow: Well, I understand that he would get a little off script sometimes.

[44:29] Ben Rimalower: A little.

[44:35] Carolyn Marlow: But but here's he probably did. But here's what happened. The set would break. I don't know if you knew that. Oh, and so it was useful. The set would break down, and they'd have to just I don't know what they I don't know that there was a curtain. I can't remember. They would just have to stop and complain and repair the set. And Dick Cabot would just add lib and just hold forth with the audience. Like I so, you know, as understudies, we we would watch that. We would love when that would happen. Because Dick was so good at just add living with the audience, and you know, he was the only one that did that. You know, no one else did.

[45:15] Ben Rimalower: Sure.

[45:17] Carolyn Marlow: I mean, uh, so when the set would break down the rest of the run, it would just be nothing, right?

[45:24] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, they just there would just be nothing because the other I'm trying to think. It was Tom and Dick. Was there anybody else? Did um did Ed ever replace Tom, Edmund Lindeck?

[45:38] Carolyn Marlow: No.

[45:39] Ben Rimalower: Okay.

[45:39] Carolyn Marlow: And I know he played the mysterious man while Dick was the narrator, but oh I yes, you're better than I am.

[45:46] Ben Rimalower: Well, I've just been I've been up to my elbows, you know. Into the woods. Um yeah, Ed did not ever, I can't imagine Ed ever replacing stake my life on it, but I I don't think so. No, I think I think that's right. I think that Tom, uh I think that Dick was only in it shortly while Tom was, maybe while Tom was gone.

[46:11] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[46:11] Carolyn Marlow: And then Tom came back.

[46:13] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Yeah.

[46:15] Carolyn Marlow: Um, so yeah. That's funny. Um, and uh, I assume you were all like big Dick Cabot fans when he came into the show.

[46:23] Carolyn Marlow: Yeah, we all knew who he was, and uh he was very nice. Yeah. He was nice to everybody. He was a real sweetheart. Um, so that was a win-win, you know, I thought, all the way around. And um oh, I spoke with Scott Frankel and he was talking about having been the um conductor when when Paul would be gone. Um do you have any memories of that? Was that or did that not overlap with you having to go on, maybe?

[46:50] Carolyn Marlow: Well, that's not yeah, but Scott was not the I don't think the original assistant conductor. Right, I think it was Paul Ford and they shared the job, maybe. No, it's it was somebody, I feel like it was somebody else because whoever it was, with the first time Paul was gone, uh what was very difficult for me, I was on, and it was very difficult being Cinderella's mother in the tree. Because Paul knew it was an issue, yeah. Whoever it was was conducting down here. And I'm like, what? Uh so yeah, I don't I have to say I don't remember. I don't have a recollection of that.

[47:41] Ben Rimalower: Um so yeah. Wow. Well, I this is so great, Carolyn. I really appreciate you talking to me. It's been so wonderful.

[47:49] Carolyn Marlow: Certainly, absolutely. I wish I could remember better, but I I mean that's you're you're not alone. It's a lot of years, and you know, that's why I'm glad I'm doing this now. And you know, there'll be a record that you know people will have like with the Sunday book. I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna send you a text. I'm gonna send you that picture of text. Yeah, that if I find anything in my if I find if I open my two scripts, I'll I'll screenshot you that anything you send, I'll give you a few. Anything I can find. Yeah, literally anything could be you know, uh a rehearsal schedule, it could be anything.

[48:21] Ben Rimalower: Well, has anybody talked to you about the magic beans?

[48:24] Carolyn Marlow: No, I have heard nothing.

[48:25] Ben Rimalower: Whathing, not this onheim beans?

[48:29] Carolyn Marlow: No, no, seriously, yeah. Sondheim gave everybody opening night silver beans and a velvet patch, and the beans have an anagram on them. It's his initials, your initials, and if you and and if you anagram it, it's something like thanks, Carolyn, or thank I have them.

[48:53] Carolyn Marlow: This is absolutely magical. I'm so I know I have them. I will put them on something black and I will take a picture of them and send it to you.

[49:01] Ben Rimalower: Oh, I'm so happy about that.

[49:03] Carolyn Marlow: Yeah, nobody told you about those.

[49:05] Ben Rimalower: Oh, Mouse.

[49:06] Carolyn Marlow: Yeah. Oh my god, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Joanna Merlin gave every all the women a scarf. I still have my scarf. I still love it.

[49:15] Ben Rimalower: I know.

[49:15] Carolyn Marlow: So she has good taste in scarves, Joanna Merlin.

[49:18] Ben Rimalower: What?

[49:19] Carolyn Marlow: Well, this mine was very nice. I'm sure.

[49:22] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, uh, not Joanna Merlin. Did I say Joanna Merlin? I am an idiot.

[49:26] Carolyn Marlow: Okay, no. Joanna Gleason.

[49:30] Ben Rimalower: Okay.

[49:30] Carolyn Marlow: Joanna. Um, but yeah, I'll take a picture of those. I'm so amazed nobody told you about those beans.

[49:38] Ben Rimalower: I know the beans sound was so cool. That's great. And then if you were with it to the end, okay, and I have it sitting right here. Um, you were given the score with Sondheim's signature.

[49:49] Carolyn Marlow: Oh, beautiful.

[49:50] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah.

[49:54] Announcer: Thank you for listening to Giants in the Sky How Sondheim and Le Pine went into the woods on the Broadway Podcast Network. Look out for episode 22 with Scott Frankel, assistant conductor on Broadway.