This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:01] Ben Rimalower: Broadway Podcast Network presents Giants in the Sky, how Sondheim and Lapine went into the woods with me, Ben Rimalower. Today's guest, Scott Frankel, Assistant Conductor on Broadway.

[0:12] Scott Frankel: Once upon a time. I was assistant conductor and keyboardist for the original Broadway production of Into the Woods, as well as a pianist on the final workshop. I was nominated for a Tony Award for my score to the acclaimed Grey Gardens, in addition to various other awards and honors as a composer, writing such musicals as The Flamingo Kid, Far From Heaven, Happiness, Doll, Meet Mr. Future and Broadway's War Paint. I was memorably featured as Shirley MacLaine's I'm Still Here accompanist in Postcards from the Edge and was music consultant on James Lapine's film Life with Mikey.

[0:57] Ben Rimalower: Well, yeah, so Into the Woods, I mean, were you fresh out of school?

[1:00] Scott Frankel: No, you did Rags.

[1:01] Ben Rimalower: I did Rags.

[1:02] Scott Frankel: Well, the very first job I had out of school, I played piano for Lillian Montevecchi at the North Shore Music Theater in Beverly, Massachusetts, in the round. And she opened for Jim Neighbors.

[1:16] Ben Rimalower: Well, golly, Lillian, you sure seem like a pretty French lady.

[1:22] Scott Frankel: It was the most incongruous match-up. But she also, I remember, she insisted on singing The Windmills of Your Mind, which has more lyrics in English, which she seemed unable to speak, than any other song. So she would start, and she would go, like a circle in a spiral, like a wheel within a wheel. And then she went up. And she turned upstage to me, and I'm like, girl, there are 975 more words. I can't throw you all these words. Let's go on to the next song.

[1:54] Scott Frankel: No, I was doing a fraught and ill-fated musical with the public called The Knife.

[2:01] Ben Rimalower: With Mandy Patinkin?

[2:02] Scott Frankel: This is Mandy and Mary Elizabeth Mastro Antonio. David Harrow wrote the book and directed it, and this guy named Nick Bicat, B-I-C-A-T, wrote the music. And it was, well, we didn't, Mandy was a transsexual. At the end of the first act, he had been male-identifying up until that point, and then he crossed from the wings in a midnight blue dress, looking like your Aunt Muriel, basically. He was homely as a woman. I'm allowed to say that. I'm going to cancel myself. He was homely as a woman. Cancel.

[2:42] Scott Frankel: And then he turned downstage, and he walked all the way down to the edge of the stage, and he said, his line was, it fits. Black up.

[2:49] Ben Rimalower: That was the intermission or a sack?

[2:52] Scott Frankel: Yes.

[2:53] Ben Rimalower: Was that going to get a laugh?

[2:55] Scott Frankel: Well, what got a, in the second act, there's the title song called The Knife, and it ended in this big frenzy with the whole ensemble going, The Knife, The Knife, The Knife, The Knife, The Knife, The Knife, The Knife, The Knife, The Knife, and one performance, someone who had obviously seen it before, right as the last The Knife happened, screamed out, rubbish! From the back of the auditorium. So I was playing The Pit, and Mandy very kindly called up Steve Solomon and said, there's this kid playing The Pit, and it would be great if you had a use for him. Maybe on your new show. And that was Into the Woods, which was super nice of him, and I had never met Solomon.

[3:44] Scott Frankel: First they sent me to play auditions. Was this before San Diego or after?

[3:53] Ben Rimalower: This was after San Diego.

[3:55] Scott Frankel: And I had to learn the Little Red Song in every key. Oh, wow. I was just expected to sight transpose, and it was before a finale. Kids, there was a time before a finale. And I was maybe in the pit of some theater. Maybe it was the Martin, but I don't know. And I got the job. And they had all done it in San Diego, and he introduced me to Paul Domiani, and Paul hired me to be the rehearsal pianist with Paul Ford. And yeah, I was there when Betty Buckley was there.

[4:33] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. So how was that?

[4:37] Scott Frankel: So my job was to come in early and vocalize, warm up Betty at her request and management's request. And she would put herself flat on the floor next to a little dog, and there would be, we did that for a time, but then as my recollection, if it doesn't fail me, she tended to be late. And Lapine was very unhappy with this, and basically it was an ultimatum like, you have to be on time, and if you can't be on time, then this isn't going to work out.

[5:28] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. And I think that's what happened.

[5:30] Scott Frankel: Right. And then, with very little time.

[5:34] Ben Rimalower: Yes, as I recall, I don't know if it was like a pre-production thing, that I can't remember. If we were actually in rehearsal, we might have actually, oh no, that wouldn't make sense though. It might have been a couple weeks before, I don't know.

[5:44] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. What I've heard, I mean, there's a lot of confusion around this.

[5:47] Scott Frankel: Right.

[5:48] Ben Rimalower: Confusion and agendas.

[5:50] Scott Frankel: Right, right, right. And diplomacy.

[5:52] Ben Rimalower: Right, sure. I think that the workshop was in July, and rehearsals for Broadway started in September.

[5:57] Scott Frankel: In the fall.

[5:58] Ben Rimalower: That sounds about right.

[5:59] Scott Frankel: But maybe in the same studio.

[6:00] Ben Rimalower: That sounds about right. Some people.

[6:02] Scott Frankel: Sure. It's very runny.

[6:04] Ben Rimalower: Sure. Well, so if Betty was late, that means you did not warm her up, so you just sat her up.

[6:08] Scott Frankel: Or she got there late and we didn't have the full hour to warm up, or she missed the warm up entirely. I don't really remember, but that was the, it was a timeliness question, and I think Lapine gave her ample warning.

[6:23] Ben Rimalower: Right. About it, which I think were not heated for whatever reason, so.

[6:27] Scott Frankel: I have heard that he, even when he.

[6:30] Ben Rimalower: She went on, of course, to do Grey Gardens in Los Angeles and Bay Street with Rachel York, and I did not remind her of this particular anecdote.

[6:36] Scott Frankel: No, no. Because it just didn't seem.

[6:38] Ben Rimalower: It didn't go well.

[6:39] Scott Frankel: Yeah. Just briefly on the Lapine topic, even aside from Betty, I've heard from people that even when he acted in a way directorially that actors don't like, that he was never heated toward anybody. Is that how you remember it?

[6:54] Scott Frankel: Yeah, he wasn't a yeller.

[6:57] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[6:58] Scott Frankel: That's for sure. He loved Bernadette.

[7:06] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. But was, I remember, and I may be conflating this with Falsettos, which I did with him five years later, how do I want to say it? He may have caused some tearfulness among some of the less starry members of the cast in both shows, is my recollection. He would be short with them, or curt, not yelling, but kind of testy.

[7:37] Scott Frankel: And then going back to Betty, she hadn't been as thrilling as I think she would have been? I mean, she says that he wrote Stay With Me for her, which I could certainly hear.

[7:50] Ben Rimalower: Stay With Me was in it then, in that workshop, right?

[7:53] Scott Frankel: Well, I'm pretty sure it was. Because it had not been in San Diego.

[8:01] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[8:02] Scott Frankel: And there was Boom Crunch instead of Last Midnight. I think we started with Boom Crunch, if memory serves. I should go back and look in my basement.

[8:14] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, that's what you mean.

[8:16] Scott Frankel: I actually don't remember Betty. I'm not even sure we even got to the score.

[8:20] Ben Rimalower: Really?

[8:21] Scott Frankel: I don't have a recollection of her singing it.

[8:23] Ben Rimalower: Wow, because you'd think you would.

[8:25] Scott Frankel: Yeah. Correct. Probably nobody ever, if that's what you like, nobody ever did it better than that, right?

[8:32] Ben Rimalower: Totally, and I'm surprised I don't remember it.

[8:36] Scott Frankel: And I do remember I was so, so Sondheim was so measured and very precise in rehearsals, and he would sit there, I remember he would sit there at run-throughs with a yellow legal pad, and there was no yelling or jumping up, and he would just very methodically write down his notes and thoughts, and I was very impressed by that. I thought, oh, well that seems like a very intelligent, considered way to write down your thoughts or objections or corrections, and then go around and tell the appropriate people what they are.

[9:16] Ben Rimalower: Totally. Did you take that forward?

[9:19] Scott Frankel: I did, I did.

[9:20] Ben Rimalower: I love it.

[9:21] Scott Frankel: I'm not a yeller.

[9:24] Ben Rimalower: But maybe I will become one.

[9:26] Scott Frankel: Well, listen, there's still time to be all kinds.

[9:28] Ben Rimalower: Totally, totally. I could get to my snarky, snotty years. I'll be 60 in May.

[9:34] Scott Frankel: It's hard to imagine, really. Again, being so young as I am.

[9:38] Ben Rimalower: Well, listen, I mean, I don't know what age anyone is.

[9:42] Scott Frankel: So I also remember, so I was the assistant conductor, and I was young, I was 24, and I had really big...

[9:57] Ben Rimalower: Was there a band in the workshop, by the way?

[9:59] Scott Frankel: There was not. I had really big, permed hair, kind of like Roger Daltrey in The Who.

[10:07] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[10:08] Scott Frankel: A kind of Jewish Roger Daltrey. And I don't know what I was thinking, and the set design for the show, once we got into the theater, there was a passerelle, a kind of Miss America-like round ramp.

[10:21] Ben Rimalower: For the three kids' numbers, right?

[10:23] Scott Frankel: Well, and it was used a lot for skipping, and my head stuck out. The pit was in the middle, and I would get all of these notes from Lapine, whatever I would conduct, like, what about your hair? What can we do with your hair? Can you pull your hair back? Can you slick your hair back? Can you put your hair in a ponytail? Can you... Static reading, like a bush. And I was like, nothing about the tempi, or the pacing, or the volume, or...

[10:54] Scott Frankel: No. We never... I have a picture somewhere. I'll see if I can find it for you. There was some... It's in my basement somewhere, a picture of me with very big hair sticking out of the pit.

[11:04] Ben Rimalower: Because that's '87? I mean, that's not, like, the peak years of Afros.

[11:08] Scott Frankel: No, no. Jufro. No. I don't know what the hell was the peak years of.

[11:14] Ben Rimalower: And it was... I mean, was it like with Moose? Like, was it in the '80s? Like, were you, like, cool?

[11:21] Scott Frankel: It was a little bit... No.

[11:24] Ben Rimalower: It was a little barb and enough is enough.

[11:26] Scott Frankel: Yeah. Is really kind of what it was. It was after the Bonsoir.

[11:32] Ben Rimalower: Yes, right.

[11:33] Scott Frankel: But before Hyde Park. So there was a kind of, you know, that was a perm, and kind of curled, and it wasn't a good look for me. I don't know what I was thinking.

[11:41] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. What else do I remember?

[11:47] Scott Frankel: Well, so, okay. Now, what about this workshop?

[11:51] Ben Rimalower: This is when Burke Moses was...

[11:53] Scott Frankel: Oh, I remember him.

[11:54] Ben Rimalower: Sure.

[11:56] Scott Frankel: But he was not... He was supposed to be Rapunzel's prince, but Bob Westenberg was in The Crucible, so they... He was going to cover it, so they...

[12:05] Ben Rimalower: Oh, interesting.

[12:06] Scott Frankel: That vaguely rings a bell. I do remember Burke, because I think that's the only time I worked with him. And then...

[12:11] Ben Rimalower: Very easy on the eyes, Burke Moses.

[12:13] Scott Frankel: Yes, yes. Big, tall, strapping guy. But, and was he not good?

[12:17] Scott Frankel: I think he was good. I don't remember that personnel change in particular. I really don't remember a lot about the San Diego chapters, which I was not involved with at all.

[12:29] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Had you been following? Was that a thing that people were gossiped about, like at Joe Allen or, you know, Sam's?

[12:36] Scott Frankel: Yeah, I think it was a little off my radar, but I'm trying to think why. Maybe I was just up to my ears in The Knife or whatever the hell I was doing.

[12:43] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, and you did Rags before Into the Woods.

[12:46] Scott Frankel: Rags was in '86.

[12:47] Ben Rimalower: Did you go out of town with Rags?

[12:48] Scott Frankel: Yeah, I didn't do Rags in New York. I did Rags out of Boston.

[12:51] Ben Rimalower: Oh, only, okay.

[12:52] Scott Frankel: Yeah. So, but that must have been, you had your hands full. You weren't like having bandwidth for gossip on Into the Woods.

[12:55] Scott Frankel: Rags was a real, Rags was a real baptism by fire.

[13:05] Scott Frankel: There was a lot. The Strata situation, the lack of director that fired Joan Micklin-Silver after a couple weeks of rehearsal because she hadn't staged anything. We had these, you know, she directed Hester Street and she had a great sense of the period in the milieu and the Lower East Side, the shtetl. We had all these great storyboards and she would talk about the... and at the first week goes by and like we're looking at stage management and stage management's looking at us like, is she gonna stage anything ever? And then the second week started, she apparently was not gonna stage anything.

[13:36] Ben Rimalower: What, like just table work?

[13:37] Scott Frankel: Yeah, and like atmosphere. On their feet, improvising? That I don't remember, but it was like, there was, there were, there were not, there was not blocking. No. As in, you enter here on this line and you go upstate, there was none of that. None of that. Yeah, that and the producers and then Steven was brought in to direct and then Charles insisted on co-director billing. I remember that.

[14:10] Ben Rimalower: So Steven Schwartz and Charles Strauss, the lyricist and composer, were the co-directors.

[14:16] Scott Frankel: Correct. Yeah. And then in Boston, Stratis was unhappy. I remember she didn't open the show. Christine Andreas opened. She skipped opening night.

[14:27] Ben Rimalower: I think I heard that but thought it was, you know, not.

[14:30] Scott Frankel: No, no. She was putting her foot down and so Christine got the reviews and Donna Murphy was the second cover. Wow. And belted the whole thing, was not doing it in a kind of soprano either.

[14:46] Ben Rimalower: Isn't it very high?

[14:47] Scott Frankel: It is very high. It was completely insane. And then she left to do Drood somewhere along the way. Anyway, you learn a lot. I learned a lot. Like the writers usually, probably not a good idea if they're directing because one wants to have a little separation and distance there. There's more eyes on them.

[15:13] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[15:14] Scott Frankel: And Stratis, you know, incredible performer. She talked, you know, when she sang, it was fire and music. But when she talked, it was kind of in a monotone. And like, they really, they should, you know, she's an opera singer. She doesn't have to talk, you know, but if you're gonna do a musical, they probably should have gotten her a speech person or a doctor, you know, someone to help. Not at all. And it was low. And then when she would sing, it was this, like what?

[15:47] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[15:48] Scott Frankel: Wow. And then I also learned, they fixed this I think in subsequent versions, that, you know, Judy Kuhn sang the title number at about three quarters of the way into the first act. And it brought the house down. It was incredible. But you did not have your secondary lead character sing the title number three quarters of the way through the first act and then have fifteen more minutes to go. People were like, what? What? What? What? What?

[16:15] Ben Rimalower: The first cigarette?

[16:16] Scott Frankel: Yeah. Yeah. We learned a lot on those shows. So, what, what, what did any of that? I think they changed. I didn't, I've not seen subsequent iterations. I think they, they extensively rewrote it and, and now I think the Rebecca, the Stratis character has the title song.

[16:28] Ben Rimalower: Oh, wonderful.

[16:33] Scott Frankel: Yeah. But, I mean, so you must have, Into the Woods must have seemed extremely steady sailing.

[16:38] Ben Rimalower: Absolutely. They were, they were more organized. They had had a full production out of town. You know, and, and so I was Geminiani's assistant. And he and Paul Ford obviously had worked together a lot. And then I was playing in the pit. I was, Paul was on, he was playing an acoustic piano and I was on a synth chair.

[17:04] Scott Frankel: Oh, wow. Keyboard too. Yeah, I remember orchestra rehearsals. Thrilling.

[17:17] Ben Rimalower: Do you, tell me about Second Midnight. Do you remember that song?

[17:23] Scott Frankel: Vaguely. I mean, people have said that, like, more time was spent rehearsing that version, writing, rewriting that song than, like, the rest of the show. And then it was cut after, like, one or two years.

[17:32] Ben Rimalower: Oh, now, now I'm remembering there were also, maybe it was in a workshop or pre-production somewhere, like, Lara Lubovitch was staging numbers with his company, standing in for, like, okay, you, Lubovitch dancer, you're the baker, and you, other Lubovitch dancer, you're the baker's wife. And just, like, for the time to look at.

[17:56] Scott Frankel: Oh, there were, yeah, there were lots of different versions of things. Was there just so much money that, like...

[18:08] Ben Rimalower: I don't think there was, because I think it was produced, because, you know, I don't think they were fat cats. It was Rocco and the Dodgers and Rick, what was his name, Rick Steiner?

[18:12] Scott Frankel: Yeah. And, oh, and Ed Strong. No, I don't think there was a lot of money. I, yes, I don't know why that was, or Lupin just wanted to see, or Lara wanted to see various iterations of it on its feet, as it were.

[18:36] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. You know, when I, so I, so I had to get up, I think I probably conducted for the first time in previews, probably, because Paul probably wanted to get out in the house.

[18:54] Scott Frankel: Yeah. And I had my big hair, and I was super prepared, and I did a good job, but, you know, there were guys in that band who had been in the Funny Girl Orchestra.

[19:08] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[19:09] Scott Frankel: And, and there was, there was a lot, there was a little bit of, like, you know, you're gonna tell me, you're gonna tell me what to do, kid. You know, I was, I was, I was playing Funny Girl while you weren't even born, and we got over that quickly enough.

[19:21] Ben Rimalower: Were you, I assume, were you like a huge Sondheim nerd?

[19:36] Scott Frankel: I was. I wrote my college application essays about Sweeney. I was obsessed with Sweeney. I came in to see Sweeney when I was in high school. Yeah, and he, you know, he was very, very supportive and gave me tremendous opportunities and was, couldn't have been more encouraging in every way. I have nothing but, yeah, fantastic things to say about that. I mean, he really, he believed what I could do, he believed in my skill set, he believed, he was not an ageist, he was like, you know, give him responsibility, give him, although I do remember, like, being in the wings and maybe with him coming backstage after a performance and giving me some tempo notes, and that's, that is something, too, like, you know, God comes back and says, like, I've got a, I've got a few thoughts about, like, it's like, whoa, this is all, this is, yes, okay, sorry, yes, maybe that was too fast, I'll, you know, one wanted to please him and when he was not pleased, yeah, that was, it was nerve-wracking.

[20:48] Ben Rimalower: Did you stay for the whole run?

[20:49] Scott Frankel: I did not. He, I'm trying to, so, I left to do a year of pre-production on Jerome Robbins' Broadway, and that was because of Steve, who said, you should really go work with Jerry Robbins, and then he looked at me in the eye and he said, he's the only genius I've ever worked with in my life. Wow. I'm like, okay, good enough for me, and so he, you know, again, like, man, did you pick the fun, called Jerry Robbins, said, I'm sending Scott over to you, you should use him for...

[21:26] Ben Rimalower: Was that, that was after the Tony's Into the Whizzy?

[21:33] Scott Frankel: Yes, yes, I do remember, I remember that.

[21:34] Ben Rimalower: So, you'd put Felicia into the show?

[21:41] Scott Frankel: I do remember conducting for Felicia, I remember conducting for Dick Cavett, too.

[21:45] Ben Rimalower: Oh, wow, but he was only the narrator, not the mysterious man, right?

[21:52] Scott Frankel: Yes, he, it was terrifying, though, because he, he made Liliane Montevecchi look like she was on book, and he would say, you know, the narrator has really important plot points that there, and he would say, like, and then Cinderella flies to Czechoslovakia and has pierogi with her cousin, and then, like, Jerry Robbins would say, don't you mean that, don't you mean that little Red goes to her grandmother's house? Because, because he would give these, he would give these, these plot points that were just wrong, I mean, they were really wrong and not helpful.

[22:36] Ben Rimalower: Because he forgot the lines?

[22:37] Scott Frankel: Yes. And he just was being cute?

[22:39] Ben Rimalower: Oh, yes, I mean, it wasn't that bad, but it was, what he was saying was wrong.

[22:43] Scott Frankel: Yeah. And the audience was like, what? And so it really had to be corrected, because otherwise people would be like, what the hell's going on here?

[22:52] Ben Rimalower: Was he stressed out about that, or was it just kind of like, I get what you mean?

[22:56] Scott Frankel: He was delightful, I remember Felicia Rashad was nervous, I remember Betsy Jocelyn was a fantastic witch. She went on, and then she took over for a time, I think, too.

[23:13] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, she was great.

[23:14] Scott Frankel: Sang the hell out of it, was funny, kind of made it her own. I also remember, you know, what I think is, what I think is so brilliant among the many brilliant things in that show is the baker's wife and the baker, they're kind of like, they're, they're storybook characters, but they sound like a kind of, you know, old married Upper West Side Jewish couple. So their banter is very, and that's what's kind of hilarious about it, that they're in this storybook milieu with these costumes, but they're kind of fetching like people you see on Columbus Avenue in the 70s. And I remember they would, they would call each other during the show. Like, yeah, it was like, can you believe how dead the house is? Or like, you stepped on my lap? That's a rumor, but that's what I heard.

[24:06] Ben Rimalower: And I'm like, that's unbelievable.

[24:07] Scott Frankel: Yes, Bernadette was amazing and amazingly easy and easy and great to work with. Yeah, just like, you know, that the people who are pros and who know who they are, and it's just, it's just such a, you know, I mean, Julie Andrews was like that too, just kind of a, they don't want drama, and they're not bringing their mental hygiene issues into the table. They're just, you know, they know what eight weeks like, and they know it has to be like a machine, and things are going to go wrong sometimes, or whatever. And then there are the more neurotic ones who make Life of Living Hell. There's a director I worked with once who has an expression, who I will not say, but who has an expression, life's too short. Like, if you say, well, what about blankety blank for that part? And the director will say, life's too short.

[25:02] Ben Rimalower: But you only know that after you've gone through it with them.

[25:04] Scott Frankel: Well, that person, yes, exactly. So, but Bernadette was a doll.

[25:08] Ben Rimalower: And what is the reason, it seems so strange to me that they were casting for two years of readings and workshops in San Diego, and all these different women playing the witch, auditioning for the witch, and they didn't even consider the star of Sunday in the Park with George until the month before rehearsal started?

[25:27] Scott Frankel: I'm just, again, since I was not privy to the first third of that, first two thirds of that really, I'm just guessing that maybe they thought it wasn't a big enough part, it wasn't like a starring starring part?

[25:38] Ben Rimalower: Did that seem to change attitudinally from the workshop to Bernadette's casting, where it was the starring part now because Bernadette was playing it?

[25:48] Scott Frankel: Uh, that's a good question. I mean, Dorana won the Tony.

[25:53] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[25:54] Scott Frankel: Was Bernadette even nominated in that category?

[25:56] Ben Rimalower: No, but wasn't she, she was gone before the nominators could even see the show or something?

[26:01] Scott Frankel: That I'm not sure.

[26:02] Ben Rimalower: She left like in March?

[26:03] Scott Frankel: Yeah, she, I do, yes, because she, that was, that was the proviso for her accepting, like, you know, I'm committed to blankety blank, whatever.

[26:10] Scott Frankel: You know, I was really fortunate to be part of the final workshop and the original Broadway production of Into the Woods. It was an incredible experience, and I learned so much from everyone involved.

[26:40] Scott Frankel: One of the things that stood out to me was how late Betty Buckley would arrive for rehearsals. It was a bit of a running joke among us, but she always brought such a powerful presence to the stage.

[27:10] Scott Frankel: And then there was James Lapine, who definitely had his favorites among the cast. You could see it in the way he interacted with them, which sometimes led to some interesting dynamics in the rehearsal room.

[27:30] Scott Frankel: I remember one particular rehearsal where the reed players were really testy. It was a challenging time, but it also brought a lot of energy to the process. Everyone was so passionate about the music and the story we were telling.

[27:50] Scott Frankel: Working with Stephen Sondheim was a dream come true. His attention to detail and his commitment to the craft were inspiring. He pushed us all to be better, and I think that’s what made the production so special.

[28:00] Scott Frankel: The collaboration between Sondheim and Lapine was something I had never seen before. They had such a unique way of communicating and bouncing ideas off each other, which really shaped the final product.

[28:20] Scott Frankel: I also remember the excitement of the first preview. There was such a buzz in the theater, and you could feel the anticipation from the audience. It was a moment I’ll never forget.

[28:50] Scott Frankel: The way the story unfolds in Into the Woods is so clever. It takes familiar fairy tales and turns them on their heads, which I think resonates with audiences on many levels.

[29:00] Scott Frankel: I think one of the most powerful aspects of the show is how it explores the consequences of our choices. It’s a theme that is universal and timeless.

[29:20] Scott Frankel: The music is also a character in itself. Sondheim’s score is so intricate and beautiful, and it really enhances the storytelling.

[29:30] Scott Frankel: I feel lucky to have been part of such an iconic production. It’s amazing to see how it has continued to resonate with audiences over the years.

[29:40] Scott Frankel: I often reflect on the lessons I learned during that time. It was a formative experience for me as a musician and a conductor.

[30:00] Scott Frankel: The camaraderie among the cast and crew was something special. We all supported each other, and that sense of community made the experience even more rewarding.

[30:10] Scott Frankel: I think that’s what theater is all about—coming together to create something meaningful and impactful.

[30:30] Scott Frankel: I’m grateful for the opportunity to share these stories and insights. It’s important to remember the hard work and dedication that goes into creating a show like Into the Woods.

[30:40] Scott Frankel: I hope that listeners can appreciate the behind-the-scenes aspects of theater and the incredible people who make it all happen.

[30:50] Scott Frankel: It’s a labor of love, and I think that passion shines through in every performance.

[31:00] Scott Frankel: I’m excited to see how future generations will interpret and perform this material. It’s a testament to the strength of the writing and the music.

[31:10] Scott Frankel: Each production brings its own unique flavor, and I think that’s what keeps the show fresh and relevant.

[31:20] Scott Frankel: I look forward to continuing to be part of the theater community and sharing my experiences with others.

[31:40] Scott Frankel: It’s a journey that never really ends, and I’m grateful for every moment of it.

[31:50] Scott Frankel: Thank you for having me on the podcast. It’s been a pleasure to share my thoughts and memories about Into the Woods.

[32:00] Scott Frankel: I hope everyone enjoys the show as much as I did being a part of it.

[32:10] Scott Frankel: There’s something magical about live theater, and I believe it has the power to change lives.

[32:20] Scott Frankel: I encourage everyone to support their local theaters and keep the spirit of live performance alive.

[32:30] Scott Frankel: It’s an art form that deserves to be celebrated and cherished.

[32:40] Scott Frankel: Thank you again for this opportunity to reflect on such an important part of my life.

[32:50] Scott Frankel: I can’t wait to see what the future holds for Into the Woods and for all of us in the theater world.

[33:00] Scott Frankel: Let’s keep the conversation going and continue to explore the magic of storytelling through music and performance.

[33:30] Scott Frankel: I appreciate all the support from the fans and the community. It means the world to us artists.

[34:00] Scott Frankel: Here’s to many more years of creativity and collaboration in the theater!

[34:30] Scott Frankel: Thank you!

[39:16] Scott Frankel: Where he would, it would just be me and him in there for hours a day and he would try to, you know, the early, early stuff like "Only Town" and "Billion Dollar Baby" and there was before Labnotation, it was before Kinescope, so there was like, it was not written down. So he would try to remember, he would bring, they would bring old dancers in to see what they could remember, but then he would try to re-choreograph stuff and it's so fascinating. And like some of the stuff he would second-guess himself even though he would come up with great new stuff, it's like, "Oh, it's not as good as what I came up with, you know, 45 years earlier." And when he, so he'd be there and you'd be working on whatever you'd be working on, but he'd be there and he'd be, you know, trying things out, doing the steps and doing that thing the dancers do, like, and then he'd go, you know, and then when he was ready for me, he would turn to the piano and say, and would you even know where he was?

He didn't say where he was. It was a word that still flops around me. And but when, and he did this in rehearsals too, when he was not happy with me or the music department, he would say, and facing away from the piano, kind of under his breath, and there were no possible way you could hear it. And then if you didn't come in, he would turn around like Satan and go, "And!" It was amazing. Did you concur with Sondheim's decision? Oh, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, he, yeah, and he was the best. If he couldn't explain what he wanted, he could do it. Like he did the best stripper and the best Tevye and the best sailors and the best everything. Yet what the physicality of him and the storytelling of him and the eyes and the movement, it was just incredible.

Wow. And he had a great sense of humor. I mean, he could be mean as a snake and sometimes, like, he would turn to us and say, like, if he was annoyed, he would kind of grumble, so like, "Well, music departments aren't what they used to be back in the day." But you know, like Sondheim, he was someone who you really wanted to be excellent for and they inspired you. But unlike Sondheim, who was not a yeller and not snide by nature outwardly, Robbins was combative and difficult. And, you know, he loved actors, but he also had people in the company that he'd like to treat as whipping boys and belittle. And, you know, it's such a generational shift. I mean, no one will put up with that now. Yeah, I mean, the things, no one seems to put up with anything now.

But we were all going to look the other way because, you know, you look at Kugel, oh my god, I mean, has there ever been anything as thrilling as that or the prologue or the dance of the gym? I mean, like, so if, you know, to me, if that person has demons and if that person is complicated psychologically, I'm willing to, I was willing to stick it out because I thought it was worth it because what they came up with was so special. But now I think people don't feel that way. I think that there's the, you know, people apply the aforementioned life's too short thing to everything.

[43:05] Ben Rimalower: What would Jerome Robbins have done to improve upon "Into the Woods"?

[43:17] Scott Frankel: Interesting. I'm not sure he would have been a good match for him. Well, he, like in some ways, there's a kind of anti-musical quality about "Into the Woods." Well, sure, there are big numbers like the title song, but then there are more kind of introverted, introspective, methodical numbers. He's a very nice Prince. Like, it's inward, it's not outward.

[43:52] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah. Lapine, you know, I don't think he really likes buttons or things that say or things that reference a kind of more traditional, "We're here and performing and the number's over and we want a big ending and get a hand." Like, I don't think that's his inclination. Like, I don't think that's what he gravitates toward personally. If you want something more that feels almost more like a play, yeah, that's more psychological and less performative. He talks about in his book about "Sunday in the Park with George" when Michael Bennett came and told him, "Man, he just did this great number. The audience needs to clap." And he, you know, describes it very appreciatively.

[44:48] Scott Frankel: Right. Well, I mean, yeah, that's the thing. There are the great thing about musicals and about music in the theater is you can engender a voluntary response from an audience. You can make them do something. You can get them excited. You can make them cry. You can, and if you then want to not let them respond how you've conjured, it's almost perverse. Yeah, it's like, "I'm not gonna let you come." I tease you and, yeah, I'm sorry, we're not doing that. Yeah, the audience is gonna come. Yeah, it could be, it just may be awkward and ungainly and disappointing. Like, "Wow, you didn't know, but I thought we were." Yeah, you know, which is its own thing for some people. But I think that, you know, and what's that thing they say to, like, one audience, what a one audience might be wrong, two audiences might be wrong, five lines in a row, they're not wrong, you're wrong.

Yeah, like, they want to do what they want to do and you've given them a shape of something and then you pull the rug out from under them at the end or not let them applaud or cry or have a moment or all that. So sometimes you have to just, like, you understand the impulse. You want to keep it going. You don't want to be presentational. You don't want to take, you want to move things along. You want to keep the pan on the stove. You don't want to lift it off. But sometimes the audience wants to do what the audience wants to do.

[46:21] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah. Do you think there were places in "Into the Woods" that suffered because they needed more of that kind of a sensibility?

[46:28] Scott Frankel: Don't you know? I do remember as a young person, I was a little impatient with the three ballads in a row in act two as a 24-year-old. Yeah, at the end, "No More," "No One Is Alone," and "Children Will Listen." And that's a lot, that's a lot of slow, sad, introspective, psychologically oriented stuff. And I did not read three, and I would give notes and I said, "We'll read one, we'll overdo it, read three." And maybe he was read for, he was either three or four, and he would say he finds like it was the funny girl guy who was always there to bust my ball. He's like, "Why do you always start with read one when you're giving notes?" Well, I'm fucking read for, you know, I was in the fucking, you know, I'm thinking like, "The fuck was I? I was in the fucking put a funny girl. Why can't you start with me for a change?" And I'm thinking like, "Dude, I'm going to the number one place."

[47:35] Scott Frankel: Very, very chamber music-y, that score. That's for, I have to say that Rob Berman, bravo, because that's what, that's for the revival sounded, it never sounded that good in the Martin back. Really? Yeah, it was beautifully played. I mean, I think also he had, yeah, I mean, it's very exposed. All the parts are very exposed and very high trumpet stuff, and it just sounded gorgeous.

[48:04] Scott Frankel: Exposed meaning your ear can really pick out, yes, it's high stuff and difficult. You can't hide that section. You can't, there's nowhere to hide. Yeah, so if something goes wrong, you're like, "Wow, that was wrong." Yeah, yeah, it's such a, I mean, I also think too, like, so I was a, I think you can divide the people into pre-Sunday people and post-Sunday people, and I think it has to do with writers too in terms of how he's over-influenced them. And I'm so unquestionably a pre-Sunday guy, not just because I wrote college application essays about "Sweeney." Yeah, I just thought that, I mean, sure, those scores, "Sunday" and later are also marvelous, but for me, the kind of marriage of show business and classical music and drama, and it's just, the palette is so broad and rich. And the "Sunday" and later ones are more contained and specific. Yeah, they're marvelous in their own way.

[49:24] Scott Frankel: Yeah, I think so many younger writers in particular were influenced more by the post-Sunday.

[49:32] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think I'm on the divide generation, and I remember when I first was like Lonnie's assistant, right? And, you know, when he would talk about "Company," "Follies," and "Night Music," it was like, you know, with tears in his eyes. And "Into the Woods," I think to him right now, maybe "Sunday in the Park" was sort of grandfathered in in a certain way, but "Into the Woods" was like on a very separate list. And it was like in "Annie" when like Danny Warbuck scoffs at her adoration for FDR, right? It's just trashing the idol. And, but the kids today, I mean, "Into the Woods" is the number one, and not even that it's equal to those ones from the 70s, it's the top of it, absolutely. And, you know, it's, I was thinking about that when I was watching the revival. I mean, there's just as much like kind of hyper-articulate wordplay and dense thoughts and quick-fire thoughts as in "Into the Woods" as there is in anything else, you know?

[50:39] Scott Frankel: You said it, the palette is the difference. But he, but yes, he, those scores, they're more, they're organized in a way over a more kind of tightly oriented set of motifs and ideas. Like he had his chords and his motives and he wove them, whereas the earlier ones are everything and the kitchen sink. Yeah, very, very broad. Yeah, I mean, the journey from "Forum," "Company," right to "Follies," to "Night Music," to "Pacific Overtures," to "Sweeney Todd," there's not two things in common between them. I was, someone was talking to you today, I remember the context about the snarky things that Bernstein was saying about "Sweeney" at the time.

[51:28] Ben Rimalower: Oh, really?

[51:34] Scott Frankel: But of course, you know, he wishes he wrote "Sweeney" because "Sweeney" is just the very best.

[51:40] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, it was, you know, that's such a complicated relationship too. I mean, I remember I was visiting Sondheim the weekend Bernstein died.

[51:46] Scott Frankel: Oh wow.

[51:51] Scott Frankel: So I was there when that news came in, and that was, it felt like a real kind of moment to clock. Yeah, and now, you know, now that he's gone, but I have to say, like, to have lived long enough to be so lauded and beloved, you know, there's all, and it's before I, before my...

[52:52] Scott Frankel: Forum to Roadshow. He really reinvented himself and I think that the partnership with Lapine took him by the hand to a different aesthetic. I don't think James was asking for that, but I think symbiotically the way that they interacted with each other colored Sondheim's work and worldview in a way that took him to a different place musically and dramatically.

[53:37] Scott Frankel: I heard a whitesman made me cry talking about a conversation he'd had with Sondheim in a car sometime before San Diego. Sondheim talking about what Lapine had done for him artistically and personally and how he exactly like you say his worldview had shifted and I think it's the stuff you were saying earlier about the introspection and the psychological stuff that it was like another avenue for him to exist in where it wasn't about him and Hal having to compete with Jerry Herman or whoever. And also I think you know you can't discount the huge disappointment of Merrilee and what that did to him. I mean we've all had you know career disappointments but that was such a public one and I think that he again's conjecture was so disillusioned and dejected and maybe thought that that was it. And then Lapine came along and then it was like oh there are other ways I can do what I do yeah different ways maybe this is good yeah but certainly different.

[55:03] Scott Frankel: Let me ask you about that if you don't mind. I totally get that and I always whenever I hear Sondheim or Prince talk about the failure of Merrilee. I mean they're both artists that I admire you know above all but they there's just like a sort of self-pitying about how people were bitchy and out to see them fail or something and I always wonder if that's just how they were sensitive to that moment or if it really was in a way that I can't imagine so so mean-spirited to be you know different than the usual mean-spirited that we all think of.

[56:22] Scott Frankel: Yeah I mean they had had a huge run of successes. I think it again I wasn't in New York at that point but I it seemed like it it seemed like it failed in such a spectacular way sort of kind of public way that the booing or not liking the costume design or like people were people thought it was a real misfire not like a good try wasn't my favorite. Yeah. People seemed to be more more invective toward him and and that they shouldn't have done it or sometimes I see things and I think like wow I hated that and I don't know what you know what the fuck were they doing and sometimes I see things like wow I see what they were trying to do and yeah you know maybe they needed another year or maybe if they'd done this or but but people seem to really get off on dismissing it and you know I think about I think about with my own work you know that I mean we're all fragile and we could all say that we're hard-boiled but you put something out there that obviously you feel good about at the time and you've worked on and you know you hope that an audience will respond it's like going on a date really it really is the and if the other person you know it's one thing not to call again for a second date it's another thing to kind of get up from the table go wow you're really awful or like this food really soft and you have no personality you're a bad breath and I think it felt like that and you know I mean on the other hand I mean there have been things that I've done that have not been well received that I just feel good about that's like you know I still like it you know it's what I wanted to do you may not care for it and obviously it's a business and that's part of the equation but like I wouldn't rewrite that because I thought it was it is what it was you know so but but we he did want I mean I guess we all did the approval and the plot it's and an audience yeah and and when the audience says you suck it gives a thumbs down it's painful in me.

[58:17] Scott Frankel: I now that we're talking about it I'm also wondering if there was a generational shift there that the sort of respectable medium shows of the 60s that ran for nine months or 14 months or whatever that the change yeah after in the age that we are in shows clothes shuddering like that all the time right but maybe that was not in the sort of like worldview that they expected to be you know playing in. I mean I often think about that now like people seem to like for me like every single thing that I see I don't want to have to open a vein and like we've been cry or laugh or piss myself like sometimes I'm you know but that seems to now be the kind of litmus test like were you wasn't were you you know were you weeping or were you orgasming or were you crying or were you like couldn't you just have a good time or like be entertained or provoked or like but yeah you know he also the the tastes change and the generations change and and that was kind of a transitional time yeah yeah well not transitional in the in the current sense of the word.

[59:34] Scott Frankel: No, not the middle of the Tinkin. She was a beautiful beautiful woman in the US. That's what I said. I don't care what the tape recorder says. Well I can't think there's anyone better to talk to about that. I was very happy to go down memory lane. It was, people also have people also don't understand like how the what life was like before the internet or like social media or the ubiquity I mean he was like to be in like to get a job working on a Sondheim show or to be in the room with him or like it was just incredible that kind of access like there were you know there weren't the books and there weren't the videos and there weren't the like he was there was so much more mystery and it was like this incredibly erudite accomplished brilliant man creating new stuff and you just didn't you there weren't as many ways to see inside what that was like with anyone let alone him.

[1:00:50] Scott Frankel: Correct. I mean I remember that too with the someone was asking me about a Starstruck Anecdote the other day and like when he when he called me he called me and she was going to do some songs on Back to Broadway and he called me and he said hi Scott it's Steve how would you like to meet me at Barbra Streisand's apartment tomorrow at four o'clock and I was like what I'm like yes yes yes and that you know again someone who was prodigiously talented and who had created a lot of work but who was kind of secretive and reclusive and not present in other ways didn't perform and wasn't accessible and didn't like to give interviews and when there was and so then you when you meet someone like that in person or like have them singing in your ear on the piano bench I mean it's it's crazy it's just crazy it's different now now I feel like with three clips you can you can get a soundbite from everybody right and get what they think you know.

[1:02:01] Scott Frankel: Well that also started with you know Oprah and Rosie and like what kind of underwear do you wear yeah uh what do you have for breakfast like we used to love we used to there used to be mystery and now everybody has to you know tell you everything but in the mystery era you were in Barbara's what Central Park was penthouse yes you and Steve yeah working on her insane um and that without that was the version of in children will listen with the second midnight uh right we were doing the one I worked on was uh move on we do not belong together oh yeah I mashed them up together gorgeous um I do remember too I had to make I had to make her a demo after our first meeting and I went I went in and I was like I had to sing and I'm not much of a singer but I was also I was also so hyper where I was like she's going to be listening to this like how much am I going to give like a taste of Barbara a taste of Barbara Frazier where you try not to breathe between the phrases or like or is that kind of disrespectful or if I don't do that will she not get that that's yeah crazy dance.

[1:03:06] Scott Frankel: I mean uh well so how are they in the room together he was um reading the paper a lot uh kind of kind of he he she's a lot of work and he's they were not birds of a feather ah uh I mean obviously he was thrilled that she recorded them but I think they weren't you know all that like will you write new lyrics for me and what if I did this and what if I did this and what if I did that and he he was coming from a place like well why don't you do like how about why don't we do what I wrote yeah like that's where that was his starting point so I think he was kind of a little exasperated by her wow with great respect of course yeah in the same time but so because she's the one that has talked publicly about it and only in the like well you know the most passionate artist is the one who would always win in our disagreement right now I think that he yeah.

[1:04:40] Scott Frankel: You know well but but it makes sense in a way because he's an interpreter and he's a writer yeah so there are some people for you know I mean he famously you also cut this out he famously you know gave Betty a hard time about those recordings yeah uh because they were too free or too too much of a deviation yeah and they are pretty but they are they deviate yes yes uh so you know hard to imagine he's not around though you thought I don't know Sheldon's still here and John Kander's still here and yeah Josh Strauss is still here all older um yeah it's hard to imagine him not being here yeah but I don't know I feel like we conjured him a little bit yes yes well thank you for it my pleasure.

[1:05:05] Scott Frankel: Thank you for listening to Giants in the Sky how Sondheim and Lapine went Into the Woods on the Broadway Podcast Network. Look out for episode 23 with Betsy Joslyn replacement witch on Broadway on tour.