This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Ben Rimalower: Broadway Podcast Network presents Giants in the Sky: How Sondheim and Lapine Went Into the Woods.

[0:07] Ben Rimalower: With me, Ben Rimalower. Today's guest, Betsy Joslyn, replacement witch on Broadway and on tour.

[0:13] Betsy Joslyn: Once upon a time.

[0:19] Betsy Joslyn: I played The Witch in Into the Woods on Broadway after having understudied that role as well as Cinderella. And then went on to star as The Witch in the National Company. She also replaced Bernadette Peters as Dot and Marie in Sunday in the Park with George and appeared in the original Broadway cast of Sweeney Todd, eventually taking over as Joanna, a role she reprised on tour and on the television broadcast starring Angela Lansbury and George Hearn. Her other Broadway credits include Les Miserables, High Society, The Goodbye Girl, A Few Good Men, and Hal Prince's Production of A Doll's Life, in which she originated the role of Nora, along with starring in Road Companies of Camelot with Richard Harris and City of Angels.

[1:04] Betsy Joslyn: I think I can't even remember if I auditioned originally for something in it. Maybe Cinderella. I don't even remember. But the way that I joined the project was there was a woman that they had, and I can't remember her name, maybe it was Suzanne Douglas, something like this. And she was standing by for, oh my goodness. She was standing by for Bernadette and Cinderella, and she ended up getting a movie opposite Greg Heinz. So she left. You know, who wouldn't? I mean, to get a movie, you know. So they had that slot available, and I went and auditioned them and got it. So this must have been very, very early because Bernadette left.

[1:55] Betsy Joslyn: Yeah, it was pretty early. I can't remember how long it had been open, but it was pretty early. I think she left in like March. So it was like, I mean, obviously it was definitely before the Tonies and all that.

[2:05] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah. And do you remember like during Sunday in the Park with George, knowing that they were doing the workshop or going to San Diego or anything?

[2:14] Betsy Joslyn: Of Into the Woods?

[2:15] Betsy Joslyn: Yeah. I don't remember any of that.

[2:18] Betsy Joslyn: No. So because they went to San Diego and they did another workshop and then the Broadway production happened and then Rosalind joins. And now you were standing by for the witch and for Cinderella.

[2:29] Betsy Joslyn: Yes.

[2:30] Betsy Joslyn: Yes.

[2:31] Betsy Joslyn: That's a range.

[2:32] Betsy Joslyn: Yeah.

[2:33] Betsy Joslyn: Uh-huh. Um, but I, you know, at understudy rehearsals, I all I really wanted to focus on the witch because it's the major part. You gotta be ready to go on. And in my career, I've always been thrown on. Over and over and over with no rehearsal or, you know, minimal rehearsal. It's sort of been my story. So I wanted to make sure I was really up on it. And then I came in for the Saturday matinee one day, and all of a sudden I was on for Cinderella and I hadn't really prepared as well as I should have. So I had scripts all over the stage. It was crazy. I did it, but you know, I should have been a little more prepared.

[3:27] Ben Rimalower: So you had been a standby prior to this project?

[3:30] Betsy Joslyn: Well, I was in Sunday in the Park doing Celeste and understudying Bernadette.

[3:38] Betsy Joslyn: Yeah.

[3:39] Betsy Joslyn: Right.

[3:40] Betsy Joslyn: So, you know, I got thrown on for that.

[3:45] Betsy Joslyn: Yeah, for Bernadette in Sunday in the Park on a Saturday matinee. I was vacuuming in my apartment, and all of a sudden the stage manager called and said you're on. So yeah, that's been my pattern.

[4:00] Ben Rimalower: Now, is it easier to learn a part when you're playing another part in the show and just watching it happen eight shows a week, or as opposed to sitting out in the house?

[4:12] Betsy Joslyn: Um, and you know, I stood by for Bernadette in Goodbye Girl as well.

[4:18] Betsy Joslyn: Yes, I do.

[4:18] Betsy Joslyn: I remember you know very well.

[4:21] Betsy Joslyn: And I can't say enough about her. Oh my god. I mean, I have stories, she just is the best.

[4:28] Ben Rimalower: I would love to hear them.

[4:30] Betsy Joslyn: I will get to that in a moment. Um, I think it's easier to if you're just standing by because then you can just focus and stay and stand in the wings and sort of act it out while you're watching the person on stage. And a lot of times if you're in the show, you're making a change or something and you can't see the other parts of Bernadette's performance because you're doing something else, you know.

[5:00] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[5:01] Betsy Joslyn: So it is easier, at least from my standpoint, to be a standby.

[5:06] Ben Rimalower: Sure, sure.

[5:08] Betsy Joslyn: So you go on as Cinderella for the first time.

[5:12] Betsy Joslyn: Yeah, yeah.

[5:14] Betsy Joslyn: And I open the show and I'm down on my knees, you know, and then Ed Lindeck comes in. And I've been lucky enough to do four shows with Ed.

[5:24] Betsy Joslyn: Yes.

[5:24] Betsy Joslyn: And he was in A Doll's Life also, right?

[5:27] Betsy Joslyn: Oh yeah, yeah. He came and replaced, they originally cast Giorgio Toxi.

[5:32] Betsy Joslyn: Oh wow, I can't even remember why all of a sudden he wasn't there. And Ed was, you know.

[5:38] Betsy Joslyn: So and I also did a carousel with him out of Pittsburgh.

[5:42] Betsy Joslyn: Oh wow.

[5:43] Betsy Joslyn: Yeah, yeah.

[5:44] Betsy Joslyn: That's where I got my equity card.

[5:46] Betsy Joslyn: Were you, he wasn't your Billy?

[5:48] Betsy Joslyn: No, no, no, no.

[5:49] Betsy Joslyn: He played like the Star Keepers.

[5:53] Betsy Joslyn: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[5:54] Betsy Joslyn: Yes, yes.

[5:55] Betsy Joslyn: Um, but anyway, I was, oh you open the show, you know.

[5:59] Betsy Joslyn: Yeah, is the like the first thing.

[6:01] Betsy Joslyn: First and last.

[6:03] Betsy Joslyn: No.

[6:04] Betsy Joslyn: And I'm down there just, you know, counting one, two. It's just I was a nervous wreck. And Ed comes in and he starts mumbling, and he goes, Oh, you're the other one. And he used to do that to Chris and me all the time in Sweeney Todd. He would come up the stairs, we'd be on the couch and kiss me, and he would just be mumbling. Just where are you going for lunch in between, you know, like in between shows or whatever. He would just mumble stuff all the time.

[6:41] Ben Rimalower: No, I have to just get off into the woods for one second because, of course, we're, you know, I'm one of many, many fans of your timeless Joanna in that video. And you mentioned Kiss Me, which I think is one of the most beautiful pieces of music Sondheim maybe ever wrote.

[6:59] Betsy Joslyn: Yeah, it's almost like a throwaway in Sweeney Todd. I mean, it just, you know, it happens so fast, and then together with ladies in their sensitivities.

[7:11] Ben Rimalower: Right, right.

[7:13] Betsy Joslyn: But that's also got to be one of the most difficult pieces to sing.

[7:18] Betsy Joslyn: Um yeah, but you know, anything that has a laugh in it, I'm in, you know. So I've just figured out how to sing the other notes. As long as I can get the laugh.

[7:32] Betsy Joslyn: Wonderful.

[7:33] Betsy Joslyn: And for me. Um, and then I guess was when you replaced Bernadette in Sunday in the Park with George.

[7:45] Betsy Joslyn: Yes.

[7:46] Ben Rimalower: What was it because of A Doll's Life that you were now able to sort of be taken to be this belter in addition to this sort of soprano that you had started out as?

[7:55] Betsy Joslyn: Who knows? I don't know. I mean, A Doll's Life was all over the place.

[8:00] Betsy Joslyn: Right, yeah.

[8:01] Betsy Joslyn: Um I have no idea. I just was able to do it. I mean, you're really one of the very few, I think maybe Judy Kuhn, like there's just a, you know, Marin Mazzie. There's hardly any of you that have, yeah, God bless, that you know played both sides of that divide. And then here you are in Into the Woods in the same show, covering both of those.

[8:25] Ben Rimalower: Um, so do you remember your first time going on as the witch?

[8:32] Betsy Joslyn: Uh no, not specifically, no.

[8:38] Betsy Joslyn: Yeah.

[8:39] Betsy Joslyn: Sorry, I can't give you any clever.

[8:42] Betsy Joslyn: This is the whole point of the podcast. It's almost 40 years ago.

[8:45] Ben Rimalower: So I'll take what I can get.

[8:47] Ben Rimalower: Now, some other cast members, um, like Joy Franz, who I guess might have also at some point covered The Witch as well, she described it as the most difficult part to sing in the show. Do you agree with that?

[9:00] Betsy Joslyn: Well, you know, the rap that's, you know, you come on and have to sing that rap song is yeah pretty hard. And last midnight, and you know, it is difficult.

[9:15] Betsy Joslyn: Um I also did, and I'm just giving you my resume now because you brought up Joy Franz.

[9:21] Betsy Joslyn: I love it.

[9:22] Betsy Joslyn: And Joy and I played, um, did Guys and Dolls together at the Alliance Theater.

[9:29] Betsy Joslyn: Wow.

[9:30] Betsy Joslyn: In Atlanta, yeah.

[9:31] Betsy Joslyn: She played Sarah and I played Adelaide.

[9:34] Betsy Joslyn: Oh how funny.

[9:35] Betsy Joslyn: Yeah.

[9:35] Betsy Joslyn: Oh, that's amazing.

[9:37] Betsy Joslyn: I wish I'd seen that.

[9:39] Betsy Joslyn: Joy.

[9:40] Betsy Joslyn: Yes, yes.

[9:41] Betsy Joslyn: Uh such a, such such an actress.

[9:44] Betsy Joslyn: I had a great interview with her.

[9:45] Betsy Joslyn: She was, yeah, wonderful.

[9:47] Ben Rimalower: I agree.

[9:49] Ben Rimalower: Um, but just I'd like to get a little more from you on, on you talk about the rap, like I mean, so what, what is the rap difficult because of the band, the pattern of learning all the words or the rhythm? What makes it because it seems like it would be easier because of the less, you know, challenging vocal placement.

[10:08] Betsy Joslyn: Well, you can't, you know, I just kind of screamed a lot of it, and you're trying to do a witch voice and yeah, cattling and I've done a lot of shows with the beloved, beloved Paul Gemignani.

[10:22] Betsy Joslyn: Yes.

[10:23] Betsy Joslyn: But what happens with Paul many times is he gets faster and faster as the run goes along. So, you know, you're going greens, greens, and nothing but greens, parsley, peppers, cabbages, and celery. Like you can't even get it out. So that was my challenge in that.

[10:42] Betsy Joslyn: And um, uh and what about last midnight is that is what, what specifically is that hard because of the Sondheim-ness of the melody or is it the expansive vocal line?

[10:42] Betsy Joslyn: Um, it's, it's, it just sort of, you know, everything is written for Bernadette and she's got this unbelievable instrument that nobody else possesses. It's all written in that middle range you've got to negotiate, you know, and I don't sing anymore because I have no voice anymore but, um, you had to negotiate when you would get into your upper range but it would sit in that middle range which for Bernie was just like wow, you know, easy peasy but for everybody else in the world it's a little more difficult.

[10:42] Ben Rimalower: I mean because Sondheim has said in many interviews, um how, while he believes in different, I think he said like colors that exist intrinsically in different keys, he also thinks that it's um very important to adjust that for actor strengths so I'm surprised that that wouldn't be something that then would be shifted for, I mean maybe not when you're just um going on for one night but when you're replaced and stuff were the keys not sh—

[10:42] Betsy Joslyn: Um, customized then?

[10:42] Betsy Joslyn: Right, well the thing is for the time that I was on for Bernadette which was about six months, yeah, they never signed me to a contract.

[10:42] Betsy Joslyn: Huh, they let me go on as the understudy, wherein I they were not gonna offer me a lot of money because I didn't have a name. They were looking for a name. They eventually cast Nancy Dussault.

[12:35] Betsy Joslyn: Yes.

[12:35] Betsy Joslyn: So they were looking for a name for all those months.

[12:39] Betsy Joslyn: And so I said, fine, I'll just take double my salary, you know.

[12:44] Betsy Joslyn: I ended up making more money that way.

[12:49] Betsy Joslyn: Uh that was after Phylicia left, yeah.

[12:51] Ben Rimalower: So you made more money because they didn't put you on contract when they weren't going to pay me a lot of money. They offered me, I think they offered me something and it was like, you know, I would make more money keeping my understudy salary being doubled.

[13:08] Betsy Joslyn: Wow.

[13:09] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[13:09] Betsy Joslyn: Well that because they didn't know how long it was going to be. That was the thing. Because they were looking actively looking for a star and it for my you know unbelievable luck it ended up to be six months that I got to do that.

[13:23] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[13:23] Betsy Joslyn: And then I replaced Cleo Lane on the tour.

[13:26] Ben Rimalower: Yes, I want to get to that.

[13:29] Betsy Joslyn: And then I did a production of it up at um North Shore.

[13:33] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[13:34] Betsy Joslyn: So I think I'm the person who's performed the witch the most of anybody.

[13:41] Ben Rimalower: It seems like you might be now those um were the that was that production at North Shore one of the ones that was sort of um had the same design and was very similar to the Broadway production and the tour.

[13:53] Betsy Joslyn: Well that theater is in the round.

[13:55] Ben Rimalower: Ah well that would change that and and it was really lovely the design they came up with were these circular trees that you could see through.

[14:04] Betsy Joslyn: Wow.

[14:04] Ben Rimalower: And they came down from the from the the ceiling.

[14:09] Betsy Joslyn: And you could go around the trees and you could sort of hide behind the tree, but they could sort of see you. It was really interesting, I thought.

[14:17] Ben Rimalower: Oh, I've got to find photos of that.

[14:19] Betsy Joslyn: And yeah, was that Jack Allison directed it?

[14:22] Ben Rimalower: And Rob Marshall choreographed.

[14:25] Betsy Joslyn: That was the first time I worked with Ralph.

[14:27] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[14:27] Betsy Joslyn: Now was that then a more dance-heavy production than the the original?

[14:33] Ben Rimalower: No, it basically was what the original was.

[14:36] Betsy Joslyn: Yeah.

[14:37] Ben Rimalower: And um and people would come to me and say, How do I get a laugh here? Because you know, I had done the Broadway show. You know, they said, just give me a line reading. So I was like the the manual, you know.

[14:53] Betsy Joslyn: Um uh I love that. Um so uh okay, uh, and I I wanted to have to tell you, maybe I said this on our phone call that everyone else I've spoken to who was in the show with you not only loves you personally, but all talked about just what a terrific witch you were, and how you just sang the living daylights out of it and got every single laugh and were so compelling, and they all were just such Betsy Joslyn fans.

[15:20] Betsy Joslyn: Oh, that's lovely. Thank you.

[15:22] Betsy Joslyn: I'm I'm gonna tell you one little anecdote. Um I remember one time coming off the stage, um, and Bob Westenberg was in the wings getting ready to go out, and I came off and he said, please just leave us one little crumb of a laugh, just one little crumb of a laugh left in the audience.

[15:45] Ben Rimalower: It's so funny.

[15:49] Betsy Joslyn: I love the way he talks.

[15:51] Ben Rimalower: Um, so um was that hard then being uh playing the witch, but knowing that you were just waiting for the other shoe to drop when they would say we found a star.

[16:03] Betsy Joslyn: I just was so grateful to be doing it.

[16:08] Betsy Joslyn: Um and uh you know, two weeks turned into a month and one month turned into two, and so I just was happy.

[16:18] Betsy Joslyn: And then when it was over, I said, Okay, let's go to Hollywood.

[16:25] Betsy Joslyn: Yeah for pilot season, you know, and I was out there.

[16:28] Ben Rimalower: You left the show when Nancy came in. You did not stay and stand by for her.

[16:33] Betsy Joslyn: No, I decided to leave.

[16:34] Betsy Joslyn: Yeah, I didn't want to go back to a standby position.

[16:37] Ben Rimalower: Well that means I decided to leave and I had some money and I went out to LA and nothing really happened out there.

[16:45] Betsy Joslyn: And then I got a call that Cleo Lane was leaving and would I take over.

[16:51] Betsy Joslyn: So I said, Yep, I'm going on the road.

[16:55] Ben Rimalower: So that was and then you did that for quite a while too.

[16:58] Betsy Joslyn: A long time, at least a year, at least a year.

[17:01] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[17:02] Betsy Joslyn: And um was that a big uh shift from having done the show on Broadway, having to uh adjust in the one theater after another.

[17:13] Betsy Joslyn: Um yeah, and and it ended up that we we cut it down a lot because uh towards the end it was almost like a bus and truck. I mean, we were playing some split weeks and things.

[17:26] Ben Rimalower: Um but yeah, you know, uh uh being a being it's uh coming into a show that's already a running machine, you know, is a difficult thing.

[17:41] Betsy Joslyn: And I couldn't really come in and copy Cleo Lane.

[17:46] Betsy Joslyn: I mean, we're totally different.

[17:47] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[17:48] Betsy Joslyn: Um, so I made adjustments to things other people had set and they made adjustments to me.

[17:54] Betsy Joslyn: And you know, you're a you're a cog fitting into a machine that's running.

[17:58] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[17:59] Betsy Joslyn: So it's difficult, but it worked out and it uh it was a great company, really great people in it.

[18:07] Betsy Joslyn: So we had a lot of fun.

[18:08] Ben Rimalower: A lot of fun.

[18:09] Betsy Joslyn: Yeah, that's that's what I've heard. Tracy Katz was uh Oh god, love her.

[18:13] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[18:14] Betsy Joslyn: Now uh this is a question that you might be the only person that could even answer for me.

[18:19] Betsy Joslyn: I um in the Broadway production originally, Bernadette has I'm sure there's 12 different costumes because they're each, you know, tricked built in with the magic or you know, whatever.

[18:31] Betsy Joslyn: But as far as to the outside world, she has the crone witch look with the you know, um and then she's transformed and is wearing like this beautiful light colored uh yeah, pink.

[18:44] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, it's like looks like she could be Bernadette Peters at the Golden Globes or something.

[18:49] Betsy Joslyn: Right, right, right.

[18:49] Ben Rimalower: And then Act Two, she has the sort of glamorous witch.

[18:49] Betsy Joslyn: Yeah, the purple thing and the cape.

[18:57] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[18:57] Betsy Joslyn: And it seems like uh other witches, even in that production, whether it's Nancy or Felicia or Cleo on the tour, only had two looks really that they went from the hag immediately into the um the purple.

[19:11] Ben Rimalower: Oh the act too yeah, that's true.

[19:13] Betsy Joslyn: That's true.

[19:14] Betsy Joslyn: That's right, because they ended up um shipping my costume, the pink costume.

[19:21] Ben Rimalower: So you had that because when you were when you probably when you had the Bernadette the exact track.

[19:26] Betsy Joslyn: Yes, yes, yes.

[19:27] Ben Rimalower: I believe they did that.

[19:29] Betsy Joslyn: It's all coming back to me now fascinating so then so you might be the only other witch in history to have had three looks besides Bernadette yes I love it um and so then tell me a little about your relationship with Bernadette and how you came to then stand by for her uh and in a third in the third show uh you know a couple years later and yeah well um I'm gonna uh tell you about the day they had me uh trail her in into the woods you know um just to see how what the the stuff that goes on backstage you know because that was a rigorous costume change track a lot of costume changes a lot of stuff she couldn't have been more generous now you know you're in you're in the stars dressing room you're in her space you try not to you know uh infringe on her performance and her backstage stuff but she would tell me to come over I want uh come over here you need to know this because nobody else knows this if you gotta hold this cup in your right hand because the guy is the stage hand's gonna hand you the thing in your left hand like she talked me through the whole thing she I couldn't I mean I couldn't I couldn't say enough about her she just uh and not many stars will do this you know what I mean.

[21:00] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[21:01] Betsy Joslyn: Just sort of talk you through it.

[21:03] Betsy Joslyn: And just if you had any questions, she made sure I came in and saw how she took all the clothes off, how she got into the costume. You know, because it's timing.

[21:12] Ben Rimalower: It's yeah stuff that you the stage manager can't tell you this, you know.

[21:18] Betsy Joslyn: It you're you're on your own, but she just she talked me through it all.

[21:22] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[21:23] Betsy Joslyn: I'll tell you another story about Bernadette.

[21:26] Betsy Joslyn: When I was doing goodbye girl, my mom passed away.

[21:30] Ben Rimalower: Oh sorry.

[21:31] Betsy Joslyn: And I had to go out to Staten Island and you know be with my dad.

[21:37] Betsy Joslyn: And I remember Bernadette hauled my home there.

[21:42] Ben Rimalower: Somehow she got the number at my parents' house, and she told me.

[21:48] Betsy Joslyn: I'm getting a little footclub here. She told me that she was absolutely healthy, everything was fine, not to worry, not to give a thought to her or the show that I should take my time and be with my family.

[22:06] Betsy Joslyn: And just she said, My mount, my mom passed away, and I know what it's like.

[22:11] Betsy Joslyn: And I mean, what star does that?

[22:15] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[22:15] Betsy Joslyn: Call your understudy and say, take all the time you need.

[22:20] Betsy Joslyn: You know, just so can't say enough about her.

[22:25] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[22:26] Betsy Joslyn: She's a wonderful lady.

[22:29] Ben Rimalower: Um, so did did was that a thing where you became, you know, they they thought, oh, you know, Betsy has the Bernadette range and physicality, and she's a good person.

[22:39] Betsy Joslyn: I have no idea.

[22:40] Betsy Joslyn: I mean, you'd have to ask them whoever them are.

[22:46] Betsy Joslyn: Um I mean, that was her next broadwood. Those were her three well, I guess not song and dance, uh, but the but but into the woods, Goodbye girl was her next show.

[22:55] Ben Rimalower: I I really yeah, it's Song and Dance wasn't it.

[22:59] Betsy Joslyn: No, that was much earlier, right?

[23:01] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, that was between Sunday and right, right?

[23:04] Betsy Joslyn: Uh I don't know, just luck, I guess.

[23:07] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[23:08] Betsy Joslyn: You know?

[23:09] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[23:10] Betsy Joslyn: And I know, and uh, what's her name?

[23:12] Betsy Joslyn: Oh god, I can't remember who who covered her in uh song and dance.

[23:17] Ben Rimalower: Maureen Moore.

[23:18] Betsy Joslyn: Maureen, Maureen.

[23:19] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[23:19] Betsy Joslyn: Um, you know, she's sort of the same person.

[23:22] Ben Rimalower: Yes, you know, like in the club.

[23:24] Betsy Joslyn: Yeah, yeah, you are a club.

[23:26] Ben Rimalower: Now speaking of Maureen Moore, I'm glad you bring her up.

[23:29] Ben Rimalower: Because uh, I don't know, I sent it to you too late last night. I don't know if you got a chance to see the email, but uh there are these demo recordings that uh are Maureen Moore, you, George Lee Andrews, and John Cameron Mitchell, and I think also Kim Crosby, that um they are of the earlier versions of the songs from Into the Woods or the cut songs, like Second Midnight, and it's the boom crunch that preceded um uh uh last midnight.

[24:00] Betsy Joslyn: Yeah.

[24:00] Ben Rimalower: And um it uh and Maureen sings The Witch, and I think that you sing The Baker's Wife and Cinderella, and I don't remember this at all.

[24:14] Betsy Joslyn: Okay, so I nobody knows anything about these tracks, right?

[24:17] Ben Rimalower: They three of them were released um in maybe like 2003 when the Broadway cast recording they did like a deluxe version of the CD, and they gave these three tracks, and then um later in the two early aughts, there was like a Sondheim, the story so far box set that had the remaining three tracks, and I thought it was so strange.

[24:40] Betsy Joslyn: Did they come from the 80s?

[24:42] Ben Rimalower: Were they were you like at Sondheim's house when they were writing into the woods and they you know, but it's so it turns out John Cameron Mitchell remembered a little bit that there was supposed to be a CD ROM.

[24:53] Betsy Joslyn: Does do you even remember?

[24:54] Ben Rimalower: I mean, this is a thing nobody talks about anymore, right?

[24:56] Betsy Joslyn: Cd ROMs.

[24:59] Ben Rimalower: It was a CD ROM that um I guess was to help promote Into the Woods Junior, which you know they license this for kids.

[25:09] Betsy Joslyn: It's like a one and so as bonus material to get more people to buy the CD ROM.

[25:17] Ben Rimalower: They had this is apparently in the 90s.

[25:20] Betsy Joslyn: He thought maybe like 1991, around that time, that they had you and he and Maureen and George record these songs in a studio piano only that were sort of like bonus, and that maybe there was some plan you were actually going to film video components of this, but then that never came to fruition, and the CD ROM was never released, and so the tracks just sort of were just existed, and then they were released later in these other ways.

[25:50] Ben Rimalower: But does that ring any bells whatsoever?

[25:52] Betsy Joslyn: Not even a tinkle.

[25:56] Ben Rimalower: Well, now I'm not on your behalf because now I'm thinking you didn't get any money for it.

[26:00] Betsy Joslyn: Um that's probably true. Although it might be one of those things where you get, you know, a a check for like you know, 11 dollars twice a year into your pay.

[26:09] Betsy Joslyn: I get those checks that you know, five cents.

[26:12] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[26:14] Betsy Joslyn: Um, I did email them to you, so at some point you should listen because I first of all you sound great on them. And it's funny, it's funny to hear you having covered The Witch and Cinderella, yeah.

[26:27] Ben Rimalower: And also as the Baker's wife.

[26:29] Betsy Joslyn: I guess so.

[26:30] Ben Rimalower: And I actually auditioned for The Baker's Wife.

[26:33] Betsy Joslyn: Well, that would make sense. You would have been a very, very good choice for it at the time. And I do remember getting a laugh from Sondheim at my audition, but I didn't get cast.

[26:43] Ben Rimalower: You're talking about when they were first casting it?

[26:46] Betsy Joslyn: No, when they were replacing Joanna.

[26:49] Ben Rimalower: Oh, oh, so you were already in it as—

[26:49] Betsy Joslyn: I was standing by.

[26:54] Ben Rimalower: Ah, but I think they were looking for a star with that also because they cast someone from television.

[26:59] Betsy Joslyn: Um, yeah, Paul Ford was very bitter that that was who they went with. He had a lot to say about that casting decision.

[27:10] Ben Rimalower: Oh, Paul.

[27:12] Betsy Joslyn: Um, have you read his book, by the way?

[27:15] Ben Rimalower: I haven't.

[27:15] Betsy Joslyn: I haven't. It is quite interesting. I only read my parts.

[27:21] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, well, you know, that's important.

[27:23] Betsy Joslyn: Well, he—so phew. I got a good review.

[27:26] Ben Rimalower: Yes, like everyone else, Paul loves you.

[27:29] Betsy Joslyn: Now Paul does not love everyone, but Paul—

[27:31] Ben Rimalower: Oh, he does not.

[27:33] Betsy Joslyn: No, but we always got along. And I did a lot of shows with him. I did a lot of them.

[27:39] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Now let me ask you, um, have you over the years, you said that you have a 20-year-old kid, like have you seen more than you might have realized at the time, the tremendous impact that Into the Woods has come to have?

[27:58] Betsy Joslyn: Um, I can't really single that out as much as Sondheim per se. You know what I mean? Like, uh, I love doing The Witch. I loved it. I loved it. But like Sweeney is like was made my career.

[28:05] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[28:05] Betsy Joslyn: You know what I mean? And once again, I wasn't cast originally.

[28:19] Ben Rimalower: Oh, I should tell you that story.

[28:21] Betsy Joslyn: Please, yeah.

[28:22] Betsy Joslyn: This is how I lost the role of Joanna.

[28:24] Ben Rimalower: Oh.

[28:25] Betsy Joslyn: It was between it was between Sarah and myself.

[28:29] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[28:30] Betsy Joslyn: And I had just replaced Sarah in The Fantasticks downtown.

[28:35] Ben Rimalower: So what a wonderful tidbit. I did not, I knew that you had done that, but I didn't know you'd replaced her.

[28:40] Betsy Joslyn: I replaced Sarah. So um, so was that your first job in New York City, The Fantasticks?

[28:42] Betsy Joslyn: In New York City, yeah. Um, my first job was at Pittsburgh Civic Light Opera. Um, I was supposed to go play Kitty in Where's Charlie. Um, I'm wrong. I was supposed to play Huddle with Jack Guilford in Fiddler. And then they called me on Friday morning. I was supposed to fly out on Monday to start rehearsals for that. They called me on Friday and said the girl playing Kitty in Where's Charlie had her appendix removed. And can you fly out here and learn the role and go on? So that was my first being thrown on.

[29:28] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[29:29] Betsy Joslyn: I literally went to the rehearsal. I wrote a note for my mom. I was 19 or 20. I wrote a note saying she was teaching summer school. I wrote, gone to Pittsburgh, I'll call you later. You know, I was like, so I walk into the room with my suitcase and Milton Lyons says, put it down. We're up to you right now. I said, I don't have a script, I don't have any, I have nothing.

[29:54] Ben Rimalower: Oh wow.

[29:55] Betsy Joslyn: I learned the role that night. And I did, and the next day got blocked into everything. And then I did a producer's run-through on Sunday.

[30:08] Ben Rimalower: Opposite Roger Rathburn.

[30:11] Betsy Joslyn: From opposite who?

[30:13] Ben Rimalower: Roger Rathburn.

[30:16] Betsy Joslyn: Do you remember him from No No Nanette?

[30:18] Ben Rimalower: Oh yeah.

[30:20] Betsy Joslyn: Great singer. Yeah. Terrific guy. And Ken Barry played the lead.

[30:25] Ben Rimalower: Oh wow. Now, did you still get to do Fiddler as well?

[30:28] Betsy Joslyn: Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was the next show.

[30:32] Ben Rimalower: What was Jack Guilford like?

[30:34] Betsy Joslyn: Oh you just can't imagine. You just can't imagine. He's so—he was just the best. And luckily, I got to work with him again later on at the Kennedy Center. Um, they did, um, what is it, Of Thee I Sing?

[30:53] Betsy Joslyn: Oh yeah. Let me cake. It was, uh, Jack and, uh, Larry Kurt and, uh, Maureen McGovern.

[31:04] Ben Rimalower: McGovern, yes.

[31:05] Betsy Joslyn: Yes, and I had to go on for her for the last week. So wow in the chorus, and then I had to go on for her, but Jack was just, you know, he used to do this thing. Um, what I remember growing up seeing him on commercials and stuff, you know, on television.

[31:22] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, sure.

[31:22] Betsy Joslyn: And he used to do this thing with his face, which was, uh, split peas soup coming to a boil. Do you know about that?

[31:32] Ben Rimalower: No.

[31:33] Betsy Joslyn: Where very slowly he would just, he'd keep his eyes closed and very slowly he'd like one eye would like start, his whole face just bit by bit, just coming alive. It was the funniest thing. He was just so darling. He was darling.

[31:50] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[31:51] Betsy Joslyn: Anyway, but I started to tell you a story about Sarah and myself.

[31:55] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[31:56] Betsy Joslyn: So Hal comes to me and says, uh, we want to put you in a blonde wig to see what because the—they it's gotta be blonde.

[32:04] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[32:05] Betsy Joslyn: This is after your first audition for Sweeney?

[32:08] Ben Rimalower: Uh yes, I auditioned a couple of times, and this was gonna be my final audition for the role of Joanna. I originally auditioned for the chorus. I said, I'll take anything, I just want to be in the show. And then they called and I got an audition for Joanna. So I auditioned a couple of times. They say this is gonna be your final audition. Hal wants you to go to this address and they're gonna put you in a blonde wig, and then you'll do your audition in the wig. So I go to this place, they put me in a wig, but it's like a hooker's wig. It's like bleached blonde, like you know, off like up here, bouffant, off, and I get to the theater, I'm running late, I get to the theater to audition, and I'm in the wings, and Artie Massella goes out and says, he goes, Betsy, Betsy, you know, he and I said, Yeah, and he's he said, Are you ready?

And I said, Okay. And he goes out and he says, Um, Hal, Steve, this is Betsy Joslyn. And at that moment, I happened to glance to my left, and there was a mirror right there. And I looked at what I looked like. Now I had no makeup on. I had this blonde platinum horrible wig. And I went out there and I started doing hooker jokes. Because that's what I do when I'm uncomfortable. And I like would turn my head and a pin would fly out. Another pin would fly. And I'd go, you know, I just um I was out on Eighth Avenue. Just thought I'd make a couple bucks before I came in. You know, and I'm doing all these jokes, and that's how I lost the part. They told me I was too sophisticated.

[34:02] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[34:05] Betsy Joslyn: I wasn't sort of childlike enough, you know, to me.

[34:08] Ben Rimalower: Wow, it's like almost like you were sabotaged.

[34:11] Betsy Joslyn: Yeah, by myself. Which is, you know, this is it. I always say if I ever write a book, it's gonna be called It Seemed Like a Good Idea at the Time.

[34:21] Ben Rimalower: In so many ways.

[34:24] Betsy Joslyn: So how did you bounce back from that?

[34:25] Ben Rimalower: How did you—

[34:25] Betsy Joslyn: I was in the chorus, I was thrilled, and I understudied. And now, of course, Hal, you know, God bless him. When Sarah left, she wanted to do more opera. Yeah, um, he just gave me the part. And then a couple of—and then I'll tell you, I'll tell you an interesting thing about the tour. Yeah, because he loved the timbre of Chris's voice.

[34:49] Ben Rimalower: Yes, when he sang Ah Miss, yeah, look at me, look at me, miss.

[34:53] Betsy Joslyn: So write that whole thing. He wanted that raised a step or two, whatever. But then that meant that my—so the greenfinch was like raised. And he said, So we're gonna take it up like two steps or something.

[35:09] Ben Rimalower: Isn't it already like very, very, very—

[35:09] Betsy Joslyn: It was not originally not in the Broadway production.

[35:16] Ben Rimalower: Oh he raised it for the tour.

[35:18] Betsy Joslyn: And I said, Are you kidding me? I said, This is my first time on tour. I want to like go out and have a couple drinks after the show. What are you doing? And he said, You just—your voice sounds like a bird up there.

[35:33] Ben Rimalower: That doesn't make it a lot of fun for me.

[35:37] Betsy Joslyn: So that's why we did it.

[35:39] Ben Rimalower: Wow. Now a lot of you in that had been the understudies in the first cast, right? Like Chris, yeah.

[35:46] Betsy Joslyn: Um, wasn't also the—was he maybe the understudy or no, no, oh Calvin, was it Calvin Remsburg?

[35:56] Ben Rimalower: Calvin did it originally.

[35:58] Betsy Joslyn: Oh no, uh no, uh um, oh god, uh Jack Williams, Jack Eric Williams. And then Calvin was on the—Calvin did the tour, yeah.

[36:06] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. I once took a voice lesson from him. He was a character.

[36:08] Betsy Joslyn: Yes, he was a character.

[36:11] Ben Rimalower: He was a character.

[36:12] Betsy Joslyn: Yeah. Wow, oh that's so interesting. Uh well, listen, it's all the Sondheim history, and I need to—

[36:21] Ben Rimalower: I know, and it just broke my heart when he passed.

[36:24] Betsy Joslyn: Yeah.

[36:25] Ben Rimalower: And how—I mean, that was my whole Broadway experience, really, you know.

[36:30] Betsy Joslyn: Well, you had it as good as it gets, Betsy.

[36:32] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I know. I know and you know, but that video is such a incredible, um, you know, for the ages. I mean, we all, you know, lock to that, and um, you know, and same with Sunday in the Park and Into the Woods.

[36:47] Betsy Joslyn: I know. That those shows were preserved like that is really a gift for generation.

[36:51] Ben Rimalower: I know. I'm just I'm—I was last night trying to think of funny stories I could tell you.

[36:56] Betsy Joslyn: Yeah.

[36:57] Ben Rimalower: And um, I'm gonna tell you when Dick Cavett came into the show.

[37:01] Betsy Joslyn: Yes, he was a darling, darling man, really darling. Um, but he would just start talking backstage. Yeah, you know, and he would like his cue, he was supposed to go on. So I got everybody together and I said, Look, his stories are fabulous, but we all have to be on Dick Patrol. Okay, and you've got to be listening to the show and say, Dick, you're on. So that was Dick Patrol.

[37:34] Betsy Joslyn: So one night, um, I get to—I um this is the transformation, right? So I've done the costume change, I'm in the pink dress, okay, and I have the cape and I have the goblet and I'm do, uh, you know, and I'm the down below and the elevator, and the stage hands are there, and the cue comes for it to start, and it doesn't start, and it doesn't start. And I'm not going anywhere, I'm in the basement, and the show is still going upstairs, and they're waiting for me to come up. They—the God bless these two stage hands, they tried to lift me up. I said, You can't put me up on this thing. So I said, get out of my way, get out of my way. I climbed off the thing, I ran around, I went up the stairs. I think I tossed one of the stepsisters overboard and I ran out on stage, just like screaming, and nobody knew who I was or what, you know, and I was just stuck there, and Dick said, Well, um, if you'd come back another night, you would see that the witch—like he had to horrible, horrible. But I didn't know what else to do.

[38:46] Ben Rimalower: No, you saved it.

[38:49] Betsy Joslyn: Well, okay. First of all, I love that even in the middle of a performance where you're starring as the witch, you are still a mother on Dick Patrol, minding that Dick Cavett doesn't derail the play.

[39:03] Betsy Joslyn: Um, one more story.

[39:06] Ben Rimalower: Yes, I also want to ask you about the witch's transformation, how you accomplished that. But tell me, tell me the story too.

[39:13] Betsy Joslyn: So I'm not one of those people who, if somebody important is in the house, you know, please don't tell me because it'll affect my performance. No, I want to know where they're sitting, if they're on the aisle, I want to be able to see them. So Dick came to me this night and said, he said just that. I don't know if you like to know if somebody's in the audience. I said, No, no, no, it's fine. He said, Well, Catherine Hepburn is here tonight. So if you want to meet her, she's gonna come back after the show. So I get my makeup off. I can, you know, I run down and I see her on the stage. I'm in the wings and I see her on the stage, and she's pointing and she's looking at the theater, and I come out and Dick, you know, presents me, and I said, How did you enjoy the show?

And she said, I found it terrifying. I thought that was such like an interesting thing to say. I found it terrifying, and she said, you know, this I played this theater. That's why she was, she hadn't been in that theater since she played it in the lake, and she said, that is the show in which the critics said, Miss Hepburn runs the gamut of emotion from A to B. I thought, here I am. I have died and gone to heaven. I'm standing here shaking Catherine Hepburn's hand and she's telling me stories. So I have great memories. Great memories. Chip Zien told me that because Catherine Hepburn was Sondheim's neighbor in Turtle Bay. Oh yeah. That she was the inspiration for the witch next door. That could very well be. That could very well be. Amazing.

[41:13] Betsy Joslyn: Um, I have another little quick thing up just. No, I want them all, Betsy. I got a commercial once for Bounty paper towels. Yeah. And remember when Nancy Walker? Yes, that's how I grew up knowing her. Rosie, right? Yeah. Because I was a waitress in the commercial. And um, I would say, ready open, Rosie, and you know, we did the thing. So at one point, the director of the piece of the commercial introduced me to Nancy. And he said, you know, Betsy is gonna be performing in Stephen Sondheim's new musical, Sweeney Todd. And she goes, Wow, is it any good? I don't know yet. It's gotta be good. It's sung on it. That was my experience with Nancy Walker. Oh, amazing. Um, all the theater queens who cherish her recording of I'm Still Here will be horrified to know she was not.

[42:23] Betsy Joslyn: Uh okay, so explain to me how the witch's transformation happened because this is fascinating that you're downstairs on an L in the orchestra, you know, in the basement on the getting on the elevator. Um I start the scene. You, the witch starts the scene, yeah, and goes around the back of some tree. Yeah. And there's an elevator. There's a you stand there and they take you down. Yeah. At least that's how I remember it. Yeah. And uh there's a witch double. Uh-huh. Who is in, and they have taped my voice recording, they record the lines. Yeah. Um, and she acts it out while I'm making the change downstairs. Wow, lip syncing to your pre-recorded voice. Right. Um, but you know, you're covered with a hood and yeah, yeah.

It's sort of, and there's lots of stuff going on. But that's that gives me the time. That gives the person playing the witch the time to do the transformation downstairs, get out of the costume. And you've done before I came out on the stage, yeah, I had already taken most of the makeup off and redone my makeup. And I sort of let just the hood cover me. And I flail about so I didn't have to do a makeup change. I had to let get the nose off and the chin and all that stuff. I um I just had to do the costume. And I never caught it, and I never thought, why is she wearing the hood here? Like, that's why. Um and uh wait, so is who is the there's just so much money that they can afford to have a double on no, she played uh I think it was Maureen Davis, maybe.

Um I think she yeah, uh you know at the end of the show. Oh Snow White. Snow White, yeah. I believe it was her. Yeah. So it got you. Okay, wow, interesting. Um, and then uh and so one of the things you have to do when you're standing by for the witch is you have to pre-record the spoken lines for that scene. Or I assume they don't use Bernadette's voice when you're No, no, no, no. It has to be whoever's understudying. And I think Marin even understudied the witch at some point. Oh fascinating. You're both you're both super. She was my recuncil for a really long time. Oh yeah, yeah, really long time. Oh, I loved her so much. I love her. That was her first job, isn't that right? Uh that I don't know. Yeah, she was very young at least. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

[45:03] Betsy Joslyn: Um, and then uh, well, okay, any other stories? I I'll take anything you got. That's great stories. Um god, I've just uh it's in my head because uh Adam Heller, do you know Adam Heller? Yes. Uh he played the baker on the tour, right? Replaced uh or no, did he did he do it on the I can't remember. I think he replaced Ray Gill on the tour. Maybe, maybe. Anyway, um, we're going to see Some Like It Hot tonight. And he he's in it. So I've I'm looking forward to seeing him. I'm seeing it next week. I'll I'll I'll just get a little interview. Oh my god. Just looks great. So I've heard great things about it. What else did I tell you? I don't know. Well, okay, did you do the tour together with Ray Gill or was he out when you took over?

Ray was still in it, but then he left. Um because um James Lapine and Ira Weitzman and Chip Zien and a couple other people spoke so highly of his performance. And I guess he was who James Lapine actually wanted as the baker, even though he had a previous relationship with Chip. And for whatever reason, I don't know, they weren't casting or Ray wasn't available. James had to like be sold on the idea of Chip because he was so in love with the idea of Ray Gill. And uh, you know, of course, sadly, Ray passed away far too young. And I'm so curious to get a sense of what it was about Ray that made everyone love him so much. I have no concept of him. Oh, he just was like the sweetest, sweetest, sweetest person on the earth and funny and just wonderful.

I did a review with him and Richie Muans um and Paige O'Hara. Oh wow up in Connecticut, up uh I can't remember where it was, uh in New Haven, I think. Uh so I knew Ray for a long time. Uh interesting, I remember James telling me that uh what he wanted to do for the tour was have Ray and Mary Gordon Murray. Yes. Yes. Yes. And Chip and Joanna were like the urban New York City sort of upper West Side Jews James. Yes. Yes. Yes. So maybe that had something to do with the pairing of I I d I don't know. And Mary Gordon Murray came into the New York show. Yes. Right for a while. She replaced the woman who Cynthia Sykes who replaced. Cynthia Sykes, right, right, right. Yeah. It's like I can't put it on.

It's a lot of geometry. Uh um fascinating. Um that middle America thing, especially, that that helps me understand what what the uh and that makes sense for the tour too. Yeah. Anything else like that, the sort of like tonally that you felt was different in the way the tour was um played. No, it was pretty much pretty much what the New York show was. I I I didn't feel like I had to really readjust. I mean, I came in with Cleo was a completely different, you know, uh more low-key, you know, me. I'm like off the roof. So it was fun for the for the tour. They felt like it it I brought in a lot of energy that pushed the show. You know, and I always remember James saying that the the um the witch is like the motor.

She just pushes the show along. You know, she runs in and says, Come on, come on, come on, do it. You know, you're waiting for the last midnight, you know. Come on. She wants to be pretty again. Betsy, I I I knew I was gonna get all the gold from you and you're giving it. Um did you get to see Cleo? I did. I did. I flew in there and was able to see her. She was darling. She was so lovely and gracious to me. Just a lovely woman. Lovely. Was her performance very different from Bernadette's? She is such a different energy and and voice and everything. Yeah, she was but she was low key and mysterious. Ah I would say. She brought a an air of mystery to it. And things were slower but sort of scary, you know, in in that mysterious sort of way.

Yeah. But if that makes sense. Yeah. And was Charlotte Rae still in the show by the when you got there? Mmm. Yes. Mmm. No. I can't remember. I mean, Nora Nora May Ling took that. Yes, right. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Who was very young to be playing that part at that time. Yes, but she was really good. She was really good. Um, very funny, really good. Uh, but I remember doing most of the shows with her. I I can't remember if if uh I did it with Charlotte. I can't remember. So and then um I guess when Mary Gordon Murray left, um oh god, now I'm forgetting her name, but um on the tour. Yeah, she took over as the baker's wife. Um was it Judy? Yes, Judy. Yes, yes. Yes. I did, I did a lot of the shows with Judy.

She seems like she I've seen her in other stuff. Oh, she's a I love her. Love her. Love her. Yeah. Yeah, and Jonathan Hadley and just it was a great cast. It was a great cast. I was very happy to join that.

[51:14] Betsy Joslyn: Wow. Well, I Betsy, I'm so grateful. This has been absolutely fascinating. And there's so much good stuff here that I'm so happy to be able to include in this um chronicle of Into the Woods. And okay. I'm so happy I was able to help. Me too. Me too. I really appreciate it. And uh I if if you have any trouble opening those those tracks I emailed you, uh if if if you fancy it, uh I'd happy to help because I'd love to see if that triggers any memories for you. Okay. Um but uh I hope you enjoy Some Like It Hot tonight. And I'm looking forward to it. Talk to you again sometime soon. Okay, Ben, thank you so much. Thank you, Betsy. Have wonderful holidays and a great great rest of your day.

[51:58] Announcer: Thank you for listening to Giants in the Sky on the Broadway Podcast Network. Look out for episode 24 with Philip Hoffman, Broadway understudy.