This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Ben Rimalower: Broadway Podcast Network presents Giants in the Sky: How Sondheim and Lapine Went Into the Woods.

[0:06] Ben Rimalower: With me, Ben Rimalower.

[0:08] Ben Rimalower: Today's guest, Philip Hoffman, the original steward.

[0:11] Ben Rimalower: Once upon a time.

[0:16] Philip Hoffman: I originated the role of The Steward in Into the Woods on Broadway and also understudied The Baker and other roles.

[0:23] Philip Hoffman: My many other Broadway credits include James Lapine's original production of Falsettos, as well as Cabaret, A Catered Affair, Fiddler on the Roof, The Scarlet Pimpernel, Baby, Is There Life After High School, and The Mooney Shapiro Songbook.

[0:36] Philip Hoffman: In addition to off-Broadway productions of Merrily We Roll Along, Falsetto Land, Rags, One Two Three, Four Five, and A Letter to Harvey Milk.

[0:49] Ben Rimalower: So I just want to know everything, and I guess I would love to start with, um, were you like a Sondheim nerd before?

[0:59] Ben Rimalower: Because Into the Woods was your first of his shows, right?

[1:02] Philip Hoffman: Yes.

[1:02] Ben Rimalower: Had you done anything like in original or anything?

[1:05] Philip Hoffman: Oh, no, no.

[1:07] Philip Hoffman: I grew up in my home. My mom was a singer, mostly classical stuff.

[1:11] Philip Hoffman: My dad appreciated it.

[1:14] Philip Hoffman: We had, I think, four Broadway musical albums.

[1:22] Philip Hoffman: Yeah. Kismet.

[1:24] Philip Hoffman: Um, um, My Fair Lady, with that Hirschfeld drawing that everybody knows.

[1:30] Philip Hoffman: Um, Sound of Music.

[1:34] Philip Hoffman: Was it Sound of Music or West Side Story or South Pacific?

[1:38] Philip Hoffman: Might have been both.

[1:38] Philip Hoffman: And West Side Story.

[1:41] Philip Hoffman: So I thought his name was Soundheim.

[1:45] Philip Hoffman: Uh, we would sometimes listen, you know, and I remember because there's a couple, you know, I will say adult things in West Side Story.

[1:53] Philip Hoffman: You know, my father once said, "Well, that's, you know, adult."

[1:56] Philip Hoffman: I remember grandma pushes tea.

[1:58] Philip Hoffman: I just thought she was pushing a cup of tea across the table.

[1:58] Philip Hoffman: I had no idea with that, but um, so that was the first.

[2:06] Philip Hoffman: I auditioned for um, for Sunday in the Park.

[2:12] Philip Hoffman: Uh, I was thinking of this today, probably the first time I auditioned for him, and I think it was, uh, I think it was replacements, not the original.

[2:21] Philip Hoffman: And we did it in the theater, and it's been so long since I've auditioned on a Broadway stage.

[2:27] Philip Hoffman: You know, you come in, you go backstage, it's very exciting because you're there.

[2:31] Philip Hoffman: Maybe there's people standing on the stairs, and the stage manager takes you in, and maybe there's a piano on the stage, or in this case, the piano was in the pit or on the floor in front of because I don't remember exactly where the pit was.

[2:44] Philip Hoffman: And there, kind of in the dark, Stephen Sondheim and James Lapine and Paul Gemignani and Ira Weitzman, who was the playwright's horizon artistic director, and casting.

[2:56] Philip Hoffman: And so this is the first time I sang for Stephen, and I couldn't see him.

[2:59] Philip Hoffman: I'll tell you more of the story because you can always cut it out.

[3:01] Philip Hoffman: I sang "With You" from Baby, so it was after I'd done Baby, so it was like '83, '84 or something, you know, which is sort of pseudo pop legit.

[3:17] Philip Hoffman: Yeah, and finished the song, and I mean, did I say this?

[3:15] Philip Hoffman: It was like auditioning for the Supreme Court.

[3:17] Philip Hoffman: Okay, so I finished the song, and Gemignani says, "Sing it with a German accent."

[3:22] Philip Hoffman: And I was like, "What?"

[3:24] Philip Hoffman: Because he was thinking of, uh, what's his name, Brent Spiner, yeah.

[3:27] Philip Hoffman: Brand Spiner.

[3:28] Philip Hoffman: And I said, "Huh?"

[3:29] Philip Hoffman: And then he said, or somebody said, "Strident."

[3:33] Philip Hoffman: So the accompanist, I'm not even sure who it was, started playing "V."

[3:38] Philip Hoffman: I said, "I feel my life meet you."

[3:41] Philip Hoffman: I gave it a good shot.

[3:43] Philip Hoffman: Of course, I didn't get the part.

[3:44] Philip Hoffman: So flash forward, I go into audition for the workshop and Broadway production.

[3:50] Philip Hoffman: Had you seen, uh, of course, later on you were on Broadway in Falsettos, but had you seen March of the Falsettos?

[3:56] Ben Rimalower: What was your Lapine awareness?

[3:58] Philip Hoffman: No, no Lapine awareness whatsoever.

[4:01] Philip Hoffman: None.

[4:01] Ben Rimalower: So okay.

[4:02] Ben Rimalower: Uh, so then when did you know that Into the Woods was even a thing?

[4:07] Philip Hoffman: When I got the audition, I suppose.

[4:09] Philip Hoffman: Um, it was in a small room as opposed to the big theater.

[4:14] Philip Hoffman: This is '87 for the post-San Diego workshop.

[4:18] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[4:18] Philip Hoffman: The workshop in New York.

[4:19] Philip Hoffman: I had nothing to do with San Diego.

[4:21] Philip Hoffman: Yeah.

[4:22] Philip Hoffman: I heard some stuff about it later.

[4:24] Philip Hoffman: Yeah.

[4:24] Philip Hoffman: But this was just New York, and they did a thing that they don't do so much anymore, or maybe they are doing it again.

[4:29] Philip Hoffman: We auditioned for the workshop, and the whole thing was the workshop and the Broadway production.

[4:34] Philip Hoffman: And there was going to be a break.

[4:36] Philip Hoffman: They in fact wanted it to be, I'm told, of course, I wasn't in the room, wanted it to be one thing, and equity said, "No, you have to, you can give them the Broadway contract."

[4:45] Philip Hoffman: Great, but these are separate because they wanted it like two months between something like that.

[4:49] Philip Hoffman: Yeah.

[4:50] Philip Hoffman: Small room.

[4:52] Philip Hoffman: Stephen and James and someone from casting, and I had the piano behind me.

[4:57] Philip Hoffman: And I sang "I Love My Wife" from I Love My Wife, which I was singing a lot those days.

[5:02] Philip Hoffman: And Stephen Sondheim was nodding and smiling, it was all very sweet.

[5:07] Philip Hoffman: And I thought, this is great.

[5:10] Philip Hoffman: You know, this is, I had done a couple of Broadway shows by then, but this was wonderful.

[5:14] Philip Hoffman: And I think I was still of the time where I expected this all to happen.

[5:20] Philip Hoffman: Yeah.

[5:20] Philip Hoffman: Now, despite some success, I got the fear of God in me.

[5:24] Philip Hoffman: I know how lucky this is.

[5:26] Philip Hoffman: Um, and they had me read, uh, The Baker because the part was always going to be the understudy, just like a page, and they had me read, of course, The Steward, which was what I was auditioning for.

[5:38] Philip Hoffman: And the primary thing they wanted was to see the difference between the way I was obsequious to the royal family and especially the prince, and proud and disdainful to anyone else.

[5:53] Philip Hoffman: And I showed them enough of difference, and I got the job, and then we did the workshop, which was, I think it was at 890 Studios, yeah.

[6:04] Philip Hoffman: So big, there were big studios, it was great.

[6:08] Philip Hoffman: They constructed the what we called the sweep, which would be the hill, the great big rectangular, and it took, I think, four, maybe three stage managers' assistants, you know, to move it around for all the different scenes.

[6:23] Philip Hoffman: It was just wood, and it was in the room, and Lara Lubavitch was choreographing, and he was used to dancers, not actors.

[6:34] Philip Hoffman: He's used to ballet, classical or modern dancers who just stood quietly and waited to be told what to do and jumped to it.

[6:43] Philip Hoffman: We were actors, we were not quite like that.

[6:46] Philip Hoffman: There were a lot of questions and interruptions, and you want me to do what?

[6:52] Philip Hoffman: You know, whereas totally different.

[6:54] Philip Hoffman: Now, you're hearing my point of view on this.

[6:57] Philip Hoffman: Of course, I'm not the be-all end-all.

[6:58] Philip Hoffman: This is just my experience of it.

[7:00] Philip Hoffman: Um, I am gonna talk to Lara, so you know, we'll see what he says about you, Philip.

[7:05] Philip Hoffman: Uh, let's not talk about him and me in particular.

[7:10] Philip Hoffman: Um, so what he did was he brought in his people, his dance company.

[7:16] Philip Hoffman: Yeah.

[7:17] Philip Hoffman: And rehearsed stuff with them so he could show it to James.

[7:20] Philip Hoffman: Uh, and so he could get his idea across with people he could easily communicate with.

[7:27] Philip Hoffman: So they would sometimes demonstrate it and then we would learn it, which I think is a good workaround because there was a kind of a miscommunication.

[7:37] Philip Hoffman: Um, was any of that like extremely choreographed?

[7:41] Philip Hoffman: Like was it a picture of what like a Michael Bennett version of Into the Woods would have looked like?

[7:47] Philip Hoffman: I don't believe so.

[7:49] Philip Hoffman: Um, you'll get a better idea from other people, perhaps.

[7:53] Philip Hoffman: I mean, some of it was very specific.

[7:55] Philip Hoffman: He talked about the style.

[7:57] Philip Hoffman: Uh, we looked at a lot of old art like Breugel, which I barely remember.

[8:02] Philip Hoffman: It was heavy, it was, uh, I don't know how to describe it.

[8:05] Philip Hoffman: So he worked on things.

[8:09] Philip Hoffman: That was man, I don't want to, I don't want to say anything that reflects badly on anybody.

[8:15] Philip Hoffman: I remember there was one moment where he wanted us to skip, I think it was like the finale of the first act or finale of the second act, to skip because it was this kind of folk dancing.

[8:26] Philip Hoffman: I mean, I absolutely get what he was talking about.

[8:28] Philip Hoffman: And Ed Lindack, God love him, turned to me and said, "Skip my ass."

[8:36] Philip Hoffman: Anyway, anyway, look, it worked.

[8:40] Philip Hoffman: I mean, we did it.

[8:41] Philip Hoffman: He did the workshop and he did the Broadway thing, and there was a lot of wonderful, wonderful stuff in it.

[8:46] Philip Hoffman: So, uh, what else about stuff that was in the workshop?

[8:50] Philip Hoffman: I am completely obsessed with the song "Second Midnight."

[8:55] Ben Rimalower: Oh, I've got such a story about that.

[8:57] Philip Hoffman: Why?

[8:57] Ben Rimalower: You must know part of the story if you're asking.

[9:00] Philip Hoffman: Well, all I've heard, I mean, I've, I know the song because I've got different recordings, including a weird demo with like George Lee Andrews and Maureen Moore, that I don't even know why it exists.

[9:11] Philip Hoffman: Wow, me neither.

[9:13] Philip Hoffman: I just listened to a recording, which of course I can't give you, uh, from the workshop.

[9:18] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, well, I think it might be the one that I've heard.

[9:20] Philip Hoffman: It's like, well, the one I've heard is from a pre-invited press rehearsal with the Broadway cast doing that song.

[9:27] Ben Rimalower: Sure.

[9:28] Philip Hoffman: And, uh, but it's, uh, I love the song, and I've heard that you spent more time rehearsing that than any other part of the show, and it lasted one preview.

[9:41] Philip Hoffman: Well, I don't think that's exactly true, but let me tell you my story.

[9:47] Philip Hoffman: I just listened to it and it was just, it wasn't a presentation, it was just taken during, um, a rehearsal.

[9:54] Philip Hoffman: I must have put my little cassette recorder, which is how I learned music and how I did everything.

[9:59] Philip Hoffman: I must have put it down on a chair.

[10:01] Philip Hoffman: It was a five and a half minute song.

[10:06] Philip Hoffman: And you know, you know, I, I'm gonna slide over to a memory note.

[10:10] Philip Hoffman: Now I can see you and not me, but I want to remember this stuff because I was writing this down.

[10:17] Philip Hoffman: It was about family.

[10:19] Philip Hoffman: Um, you know, uh, uh, the Baker, Jack, Little Red all grew up without fathers.

[10:26] Philip Hoffman: Uh, Cinderella had an absent father and grew up without her mother, whom she adored, and she had an abusive stepmother.

[10:33] Philip Hoffman: Uh, there was a whole lot going on.

[10:36] Philip Hoffman: And this whole number, which happened at second midnight, was about family and about the disconnect and not being able to communicate.

[10:46] Philip Hoffman: There was a refrain that was repeated.

[10:48] Philip Hoffman: I don't understand it.

[10:50] Philip Hoffman: And it's about why can't my child do what I say or understand or know I love them.

[10:55] Philip Hoffman: And it was why are my parents treating me this way and they don't understand?

[10:59] Philip Hoffman: And the stage, the stage began to be divided into parents and children.

[11:05] Philip Hoffman: The Steward was a parent.

[11:06] Philip Hoffman: Obviously, others, it was obviously whether they were parents or children.

[11:10] Philip Hoffman: It was about abandonment.

[11:12] Philip Hoffman: You know, the whole show really, it can be said it's about many things, but it was about community and how you responsibilities and so forth and relation to community, and of course, your family is your first community and all that.

[11:27] Philip Hoffman: So it went on and on, and it would, there was a lot of questions about the parents would say about how do you, um, how do you hang on to them and how do you let them go when it's time and why don't they appreciate and know that I love them, and the kids saying, why don't they love me and why don't they appreciate I'm a grown-up now or whatever?

[11:45] Philip Hoffman: And at one point, near the end, it culminated in this, in this couplet that I love.

[11:54] Philip Hoffman: The parents said, "The more you protect them, the more they reject you."

[12:00] Philip Hoffman: And the children said, "The more you reflect them, the more they respect you."

[12:06] Philip Hoffman: And I just get chills because it's so succinct.

[12:11] Philip Hoffman: And I had a line, lucky me, the Steward had like a little line to himself, and I'll tell you about it because it relates to the end of the play, end of that.

[12:19] Philip Hoffman: So we worked on it apparently tons in the workshop, and then we worked on it on Broadway.

[12:25] Philip Hoffman: And during previews, I don't remember how many, we were doing it, and they gave the announcement they were cutting "Second Midnight," just cutting the whole thing.

[12:35] Philip Hoffman: Um, and they were going to rework it.

[12:38] Philip Hoffman: So for a few days we didn't do it at all.

[12:39] Philip Hoffman: And Tom Aldridge, love that guy.

[12:42] Philip Hoffman: Tom Aldridge had a great idea.

[12:45] Philip Hoffman: And on opening night, even though the number had been reinstated, on opening night, we all got black t-shirts that said, "Second Midnight Gone."

[12:59] Philip Hoffman: Right?

[13:00] Philip Hoffman: Because it was always, I think I do talked away somewhere.

[13:04] Philip Hoffman: I was looking for it recently and didn't find it.

[13:06] Ben Rimalower: Send me a photo wearing that t-shirt.

[13:08] Philip Hoffman: You I will be a happy podcaster.

[13:11] Ben Rimalower: Oh, it's all stretched out, and I'll see if I can find a podcast.

[13:14] Philip Hoffman: What if you just hold it up to the camera?

[13:16] Ben Rimalower: You know, I wish I had it. I wonder if anybody else has it, but it would be at home, and I won't be home till New Year's, so we'll see.

[13:22] Philip Hoffman: And then I have to run off to Arizona to help my dad. But anyway, I will try.

[13:26] Ben Rimalower: Thank God. It was wonderful.

[13:29] Philip Hoffman: Now, why was the number cut? That's the question.

[13:31] Ben Rimalower: Well, they didn't discuss it with me, but this is what I think.

[13:38] Philip Hoffman: It was, you know, midway or three-quarters or two-thirds of the way through the first act, and the characters were too self-aware.

[13:46] Ben Rimalower: I mean, some of it was the question that refrain.

[13:49] Philip Hoffman: I don't understand it, I don't understand it. Why don't they do this? And then some of those little, um, what's the word he used to call them? Morals, axioms, you know, sayings.

[13:59] Ben Rimalower: You can never love somebody else's child the way you love your own, that the stepmother says.

[14:03] Philip Hoffman: That was in there. Several people had those amongst this beautiful sort of lyrical stuff. So they took it out, they replaced it then with that short, just quick talkie version.

[14:13] Ben Rimalower: Two minutes gone, two minutes gone.

[14:15] Philip Hoffman: And the rest of it, though reworked, not exactly as it had been, became "Children Will Listen."

[14:21] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[14:22] Philip Hoffman: At the end of the show.

[14:23] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[14:24] Philip Hoffman: My line that I sang in the workshop version was, um, I want to get it right, I keep getting the word wrong.

[14:31] Ben Rimalower: Oh, guide them but step away, children will listen.

[14:35] Philip Hoffman: And that became Joanna's line, the Baker's Wife, guide them along the way, children will listen.

[14:41] Ben Rimalower: And "Children Will Listen" is just gorgeous and means so much and is so full.

[14:46] Philip Hoffman: And that obviously was the place for it, not midway through the first act. So that was just a great, a great thing.

[14:55] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[14:57] Philip Hoffman: So it's interesting that you've heard some of that and you know some more. That was something.

[15:00] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Fascinating.

[15:02] Philip Hoffman: I want that shirt. Um, now tell me about that process in the workshop.

[15:07] Ben Rimalower: Um, so I understand that you, uh, well, I've heard conflicting things.

[15:12] Philip Hoffman: So Bob Westenberg remembers starting rehearsals, uh, of the workshop as Cinderella's Prince and the Wolf, uh, with Burke Moses as Rapunzel's Prince, and then that, uh, they found out his schedule.

[15:28] Ben Rimalower: I think he was in "The Crucible" uh, in DC.

[15:32] Philip Hoffman: He was in something and he left. So Burke Moses started doing, uh, Cinderella's Prince.

[15:38] Ben Rimalower: With the expectation that Bob would be back and Burke would revert to being Rapunzel's Prince.

[15:44] Philip Hoffman: Right.

[15:45] Ben Rimalower: Because other people thought that Bob had not been in the workshop at all and had not started till Brighton.

[15:50] Philip Hoffman: Well, he started there. He started there, and Burke was not even doing his role, he was doing another role in the workshop, and then when the workshop ended, he wasn't invited to do the Broadway thing, which is tough.

[16:04] Ben Rimalower: And, uh, you know, that's the way it happened.

[16:07] Philip Hoffman: I mean, again, I wasn't in on the meeting, so I don't know.

[16:09] Ben Rimalower: And then it's hard to imagine because, um, it's one thing to play your part in a workshop and they're not happy with you and they replace you, but to be playing somebody else's part and get replaced when you didn't even get to do your own part seems especially unfair.

[16:25] Philip Hoffman: Yeah, and I, um, what can I say? I don't know why.

[16:28] Ben Rimalower: I don't know why.

[16:29] Philip Hoffman: I did a workshop once where I played, I had a small role and an understudy, and I ended up doing the understudy part the whole time.

[16:37] Ben Rimalower: When that happened, I was given my old role, but it does happen sometimes because the workshops are scheduled in a different way.

[16:43] Philip Hoffman: Anyway, he didn't get to do it.

[16:46] Ben Rimalower: Uh, and, uh, Chuck came in, who had done to play Rapunzel's Prince.

[16:51] Philip Hoffman: Yes.

[16:51] Ben Rimalower: Chuck who had done the other West Coast one.

[16:55] Philip Hoffman: I think maybe Chuck was offered the same workshop, uh, Broadway package deal that you all were, and was not available and had to, and then maybe they realized they missed him or something.

[17:08] Ben Rimalower: Um, I couldn't even comment, I don't know, but that's when I got to know Chuck, and we shared a dressing room, and then he introduced me to Frank Wildhorn, and we did some Wildhorn stuff together, so that was a funny connection that happened.

[17:20] Ben Rimalower: Is he already working with Frank Wildhorn that early on?

[17:23] Philip Hoffman: Yeah.

[17:24] Ben Rimalower: Oh, interesting.

[17:25] Philip Hoffman: He knew him from, I don't know, from school or something, and we were doing, um, uh, uh, Frank was working on early "Jekyll and Hyde" stuff and doing demos, and he asked, uh, he asked Chuck who he was working with, and Ben Wright and Chuck and I, uh, went in and did, uh, these early demos of these early "Jekyll and Hyde" songs.

[17:47] Ben Rimalower: It was a different role.

[17:48] Philip Hoffman: I was not doing what I ended up doing. Um, but that was the introduction to that.

[17:54] Ben Rimalower: So kind of that's another podcast we'll have to do because I'm interested in that.

[17:58] Philip Hoffman: Um, but, uh, I forgot "Jekyll and Hyde" was floating around for so many years before, many, many years.

[18:05] Ben Rimalower: And the original book writer, you know, ended up getting, uh, concept or something credit along with Frank, but then it all switched and became, uh, oh man, names.

[18:15] Philip Hoffman: I'm over 60, names and knees, man. Even people I know well suddenly their names are out of my head.

[18:21] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[18:21] Philip Hoffman: Anyway, moving on.

[18:23] Ben Rimalower: Moving on.

[18:23] Philip Hoffman: So, and then of course the other cast, I think the only other cast change, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the only other cast change from the workshop to Broadway was The Witch.

[18:33] Ben Rimalower: Is that right?

[18:34] Philip Hoffman: Yeah, there was Suzanne Douglas was in the workshop.

[18:37] Ben Rimalower: Um, Suzanne for a week and then Betty for a week, is that right?

[18:40] Philip Hoffman: No, no, no, no, no.

[18:41] Ben Rimalower: No, sorry.

[18:42] Philip Hoffman: Suzanne Douglas was playing, uh, uh, Rapunzel.

[18:45] Ben Rimalower: Oh.

[18:46] Philip Hoffman: Uh, you know who Suzanne Douglas is?

[18:48] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, was right.

[18:50] Philip Hoffman: Yes, passed away, sadly, just recently, a couple of years ago.

[18:54] Ben Rimalower: She was lovely.

[18:55] Philip Hoffman: She was a friend of mine, we would chat a lot.

[18:57] Ben Rimalower: Um, and of course, but I haven't seen her except on screen in many, many years.

[19:01] Philip Hoffman: So Suzanne was in it and was playing, uh, Rapunzel, and then and probably understudying Cinderella, she had a gorgeous voice.

[19:10] Ben Rimalower: Um, and it was Betty Buckley as the Witch.

[19:13] Philip Hoffman: And, uh, oh god, the early version of "Boom Crunch" uh and other things.

[19:18] Ben Rimalower: It was just, it was different.

[19:20] Philip Hoffman: It was different, but it was exciting, and it was a lot.

[19:23] Ben Rimalower: Did Betty have, um, "Stay With Me" as the Witch, or was that not involved, included yet?

[19:30] Philip Hoffman: I'm not the best person to ask. I'm gonna say yes, but it might have been a different person.

[19:36] Ben Rimalower: And I'm not there.

[19:38] Philip Hoffman: Oh, you just reminded me of a huge thing about the workshop.

[19:42] Ben Rimalower: What's that?

[19:43] Philip Hoffman: Somebody must talk to you about this.

[19:46] Ben Rimalower: So I'm sorry, I keep hitting the table.

[19:49] Philip Hoffman: I don't want to, I don't want to shake the camera or the audio.

[19:53] Ben Rimalower: Henry Morgan, TV show, radio personality on TV show.

[19:59] Philip Hoffman: I think I knew him from "What's My Line" or "I've Got a Secret," one of those shows on TV. He was the narrator.

[20:04] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[20:05] Philip Hoffman: And Tom Aldrich was the mysterious man.

[20:08] Ben Rimalower: I can't believe I didn't think of this.

[20:09] Philip Hoffman: So this was the workshop.

[20:11] Ben Rimalower: Have you talked to Chip yet?

[20:12] Philip Hoffman: Yes, he didn't mention this.

[20:14] Ben Rimalower: Oh my god.

[20:16] Philip Hoffman: Chip and I have a long history too.

[20:18] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[20:19] Philip Hoffman: And I don't want to forget, I don't know where you'll put it or if you'll put it.

[20:23] Ben Rimalower: I saw the version of "Into the Woods" in the Park.

[20:25] Philip Hoffman: And some people didn't like that.

[20:27] Ben Rimalower: I loved it.

[20:28] Philip Hoffman: I thought it was inventive and not the definitive one.

[20:32] Ben Rimalower: Ours was the definitive one, I say biasedly, but the other versions all have things to offer.

[20:38] Philip Hoffman: I love the one in the park, and I loved seeing Chip play the mysterious man.

[20:43] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[20:43] Philip Hoffman: It warmed my heart and it was great, just great.

[20:47] Ben Rimalower: Okay, so workshop.

[20:49] Philip Hoffman: Here's a little thing. I don't know if it's true. I didn't hear it firsthand.

[20:51] Ben Rimalower: Somebody suggested Vincent Price to be the narrator, and James nixed it because he didn't think it would be taken seriously.

[21:01] Philip Hoffman: Again, you have to confirm that with somebody else.

[21:03] Ben Rimalower: I don't know.

[21:04] Philip Hoffman: Henry Morgan, great voice. He's doing the narrator.

[21:08] Ben Rimalower: And Tom is doing the mysterious man.

[21:12] Philip Hoffman: And we worked it out, and that was one of our projects.

[21:16] Ben Rimalower: And then the next performance was something we had also worked out, which was Tom Aldrich's doubling as a mysterious man and the narrator.

[21:24] Philip Hoffman: Fascinating.

[21:25] Ben Rimalower: And after we did that, I remember I think it was James, maybe it was after the rehearsal or after the performance, he said, okay, how are we gonna tell Henry?

[21:35] Philip Hoffman: Because clearly he liked it better.

[21:37] Ben Rimalower: But this is what happened at the end.

[21:41] Philip Hoffman: Um, the narrator didn't die.

[21:46] Ben Rimalower: Or if he died, he came back at the end.

[21:49] Philip Hoffman: They're right where the baby cries, and the baker says, he always cries when I hold him.

[21:56] Ben Rimalower: Oh, that's the place.

[21:57] Philip Hoffman: The baker says, I'm ruining the story. If you want to do the quote, I'm gonna ruin it.

[22:01] Ben Rimalower: At the end of the show, the baker's holding the baby, and the baby cries, and the baker says, he always cries when I hold him.

[22:09] Philip Hoffman: But in this version, Tom Aldrich was there as the narrator and said, I always cried when you held me.

[22:18] Ben Rimalower: And he...

[22:18] Philip Hoffman: I just gotta chill, I do this all the time. He came in and they hugged.

[22:25] Ben Rimalower: And I saw that barbershop mirror thing that goes on to infinity of generations.

[22:32] Philip Hoffman: And someone of them said to the other, get back there where you belong, because you know, the narrator's not in the story, he's not part of it.

[22:40] Ben Rimalower: So, what this meant was this was a celebration.

[22:45] Philip Hoffman: The narrator playing the part of his grandfather and telling the story of when he was a baby and this wonderful stuff that happened.

[22:54] Ben Rimalower: It blew me away.

[22:56] Philip Hoffman: And ultimately, that part was nixed by the creators.

[23:01] Ben Rimalower: They wanted to do something else, or they felt it wouldn't be clear.

[23:05] Philip Hoffman: Again, I'm not in the room. I was the steward. I was this kid.

[23:09] Ben Rimalower: So you can ask them, but I'll never forget what a wonderful, wonderful thing that was.

[23:16] Philip Hoffman: Just great.

[23:18] Ben Rimalower: Well, in that version in the park, they made a big deal in the beginning of the narrator being the baker and baker's wife's child.

[23:26] Philip Hoffman: And then that was kind of the framing device.

[23:28] Ben Rimalower: But I don't think, wasn't he the kid and he had all that stuff in his backpack, and all the toys he had became the characters?

[23:33] Philip Hoffman: And yeah, I thought that was very interesting.

[23:35] Ben Rimalower: I enjoyed it.

[23:35] Philip Hoffman: It seems like this, uh, this notion.

[23:40] Ben Rimalower: I said, okay, talk to me about that.

[23:40] Philip Hoffman: Because I, the way I've heard it is that for this workshop, you did three different endings.

[23:46] Ben Rimalower: Throughout the three presentations from this workshop, they each had a different ending.

[23:51] Philip Hoffman: One where the baker's wife didn't die, one where the baker's wife died, and one where everybody died.

[23:58] Ben Rimalower: You know what?

[23:59] Philip Hoffman: I just remember the two versions, the Henry and the Tom.

[24:04] Ben Rimalower: Um, there's, I'm not saying that didn't happen.

[24:06] Philip Hoffman: Yeah, I'm just saying we all remember the things that really impressed us the most or we were the most touched by.

[24:14] Ben Rimalower: So we're, it's great that you're talking to lots of people because I, I don't remember it that way.

[24:21] Philip Hoffman: I do remember, I do remember once later on Broadway, RJ Cutler, who's become a terrific documentarian.

[24:31] Ben Rimalower: He was James's assistant.

[24:32] Philip Hoffman: Yes, I reached out to him.

[24:33] Ben Rimalower: I on Instagram, but I haven't heard back.

[24:35] Philip Hoffman: I'd love to talk to him.

[24:37] Ben Rimalower: Oh, I, and I'm, I'm sure he'll be great because he's really smart.

[24:40] Philip Hoffman: Yeah.

[24:40] Ben Rimalower: Uh, he said something about how interesting it was that James, you know, killed off the baker's wife so early in the show.

[24:47] Philip Hoffman: Um, and then it was very brave.

[24:48] Ben Rimalower: Or, I mean, I don't remember.

[24:50] Philip Hoffman: It was just an offhand comment while we were chatting.

[24:52] Ben Rimalower: But RJ, smart guy, and he's done, man, he's gone on to do some great work.

[24:59] Philip Hoffman: I remember there were lots of rehearsals, and I remember we were on a slightly raised stage, and a lot of people were watching.

[25:05] Ben Rimalower: That's kind of all I just, and Bernadette was there.

[25:11] Philip Hoffman: But it was before I knew her.

[25:13] Ben Rimalower: So I'm remember, I'm, I have a picture of Bernadette coming to talk to me.

[25:17] Philip Hoffman: Must have been after something else.

[25:18] Ben Rimalower: But I think she watched it.

[25:20] Philip Hoffman: I'm not positive, but I think she watched the, you have to ask her.

[25:24] Ben Rimalower: But I love Bernadette.

[25:26] Philip Hoffman: All the nice things you've heard about Bernadette are true.

[25:30] Ben Rimalower: Um, I remember we were in the theater and I was sitting on the arm of a seat and chatting with a couple people, and Bernadette came down the aisle to talk to us, and she was standing next to me, so she put her arm on my shoulder and I put my arm around her waist.

[25:42] Philip Hoffman: And I said, you know, Bernadette, before we met, I used to dream about moments like this.

[25:47] Ben Rimalower: Um, she was lovely.

[25:49] Philip Hoffman: She met my parents. When I brought her to meet my dad and stepmom, she said, she looks like your mother.

[25:55] Ben Rimalower: I mean, so she like she paid attention.

[25:58] Philip Hoffman: She was warm and professional, and, uh, and she was great.

[26:03] Ben Rimalower: I have a picture of us standing together at the recording.

[26:06] Philip Hoffman: Going back to the other thing you said about the different interpretations of the show, with "Into the Woods" more than almost anything else, because that original production was captured so beautifully with Lapine himself directing it for television.

[26:21] Philip Hoffman: It seems to me that we can afford to do any version they could do Into the Woods kabuki style, they could do it in sign language. I don't care what they do with Into the Woods. I'm game because they can't take away this digital thing we have that preserves it. That original video is so great. And the closeness of the framing really makes the woods blush. And Chip was never better. Because there's a lot of little things he does and subtle things. And I think, and believe me, I watched him like a hawk because I was the understudy, and I had plenty of disagreements with the way he did things. But I gotta tell you, he was never better. Yeah. And it was wonderful. Yeah. And just so great. Well, we'll come back to that.

I'm glad it's here. So many people have come to me and said, I came home after school every day, and I would watch it, and that's why I wanted to be an actor. And I just did a show in Milwaukee less than a year ago and several months ago. And who did the twenty-somethings and even the guys just over thirty want to talk about? Into the Woods. I'm not surprised at all. It's an incredibly influential piece. I mean, I think that that video is truly like a gateway for so many people to musicals in general, and certainly to Sondheim and even to theater. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if you went in for general meetings with Hollywood studio people that half of them, when they realize who you are, would be fanning you for that.

My son grew up on it. I have videos of him singing a little bit when he was like four. I have this adorable video where he was five, and my wife, my former wife, managed to get the camera on because whenever he would sing, we would pull out the camera and he would stop. And singing what he used to call the swallow me down song because that was the lyric of Little Red. That's the song, he says. The girl, you know, the wolf eats her, and then she goes outside and she sings it. That's the song I'm singing. Oh God, it's so Follow Me Down. That's so adorable. The things that the words a little wrong, but it's just amazing. Gorgeous. Anyway. So yeah, so it's preserved. And it's preserved beautifully and obviously, and Bernadette is so definitive in that.

But I can't help but also be enticed by the idea of Betty Buckley in 1987 playing that role. I mean, you know, yeah, powerhouse. You know, she totally commits to things. She was powerful, she sounded great. She did that first version of Boom Crunch, which, if I'm not mistaken, she then recorded for one of her solo albums. Um did not. She didn't, or did she do it in a show? Well, I seem to remember something about Betty Buckley and Boom Crunch. I could be like, No, I she has sung Children Will Listen many times in different versions. And she did also on one of her albums do Stay with Me in a medley with some other songs. Um, but she did not ever record Boom Crunch. Okay, okay, see, I'm wrong.

That's why you gotta ask more people than me. But she was powerful and it was really interesting and it was really exciting. Chip said that he felt as thrilling as it was, and you know, how to have Bernadette in my cast, that he knew now there was a really big star, and that they were going to cut away from him and Joanna to get more material because the audience was gonna want to see Bernadette. Huh, that's interesting. Danielle Furlan did not remember it that way. She felt that it was very clear that the dramaturgical trajectory of the show was wanting more material for the witch, and it had nothing to do with the fact that it was Bernadette playing her, that it was just the story needed more fleshing out.

Do you remember the fact that the baker's material was being diminished as the witch's part was growing? And or do you remember why you thought that was happening or anything about that? No, if that was happening, I was ignorant of it, but I did love Danielle Ferland. Yes. No, again, I wouldn't be the one to ask. It's interesting because the witch always gets the last bow. And there's something really satisfying about that. As much as everybody loves the baker's wife, everybody loves the baker's wife. And Joanna, you know, maybe we'll talk more about it. Joanna was brilliant. I learned a lot from her. Um, anyway, no, to answer your question. I don't remember seeing that. I didn't know it as well.

And remember, I only joined during the workshop. So I'm not so sure there were that many changes by then between the baker and his wife and things like that. I know they all worked well together and it was fun. Like Chip described a scene in the second act with the baker and the baker's wife, when they have just met up with Little Red after she came upon Granny's house being destroyed, and the baker's wife saying she'll have to live with us privately to him, she'll have to live with us now, and him saying, I hate her and getting the biggest laugh of the show. And then that being cut to make room because the witch, because it was Bernadette and she was a star, and the audience wanted more of her, was going to have to sing that reprise of Stay With Me The Lament, it's called.

And it has a little bit of Children Will Listen, also. That's um that had not been there previously. Um, do you remember that scene of saying I hate her as the big I I don't I don't remember I hate her once you said it, I said, Oh, I can see that. But there was a moment, extant that was she said, You don't want to scare the little girl. And he said, You can't scare her, you know, which always got a laugh. Yeah. Um, Chip, God love Chip. He's very specific. I can't, I can't speak to it because he remembers stuff because of how it affected him. And I came in later because when I was understudying, it was later. And I can't I wish I could confirm for you, confirm or deny, but I can't. Yes. And uh, okay, so then uh so is you do the whatever this presentation is.

As you recall, there was one with Henry Morgan and then one with Tom Aldrin in both roles, and then you go away for you think it was a month or two months. I feel like it was for two months, but again, I I don't know where it's written down, so I can't say. And then you start rehearsals for Broadway. Do you remember? Am I correct in thinking Broadway rehearsals were in the same room as the workshop had been? Likely because it was another big room. Yeah. I'm trying to I picture. I remember sitting next to Betty in the room because I took out a butterscotch and I said there after every opening number because I pushed through the opening number and she made a comment and you know, and I kind of remembered seeing Bernadette in the room.

I particularly remember the thing I mentioned about recording, that I had my recorder and she came and I think she sat next to me and I said, I didn't record that number because I needed her to know that I wasn't trying to do that. But it was another big room, it was a good Broadway rehearsal space. So it very well might have been at 890. Fascinating to imagine this presentation with all of you and Betty on as the witch and Bernadette sitting in the house. I'm 90% positive she saw one of them, but I could be mixing it up with another memory because I did something in a room very much like that, and she was watching and she came up to me afterward. So I wouldn't have known her before that. So the one she came up to me must have been years after Into the Woods.

Well, I'm hoping somebody can confirm. I hope somebody can confirm that. I'm sure she will remember that. Um, so then you come back and start now. Had you already signed your Broadway contract during the workshop? Yeah. You know, they did them at the same time, and I think Dodgers regretted that, especially because they made a choice of losing Burke and had to, I think they had to pay him for a year. Yeah, and I don't think they do that so much anymore unless it's true. Right. But yeah, I had it so man, I was I was thrilled. I was real, it was so good. Another Broadway show, but this was Sondheim, yeah. And even though I wasn't a Sondheim nerd, I knew it was a big freaking deal. Yeah, yeah, it was fun.

Also I'm back with the people from the workshop, right? You've already established something, the workshop people. So it wasn't like you're going into this rehearsal meeting all new people, it was a kind of a reunion, similar to when we made the recording for PBS. Some of us had left the show and came back for a week. That's for later. We'll get to that. So okay. In terms of cast changes now, Burke Moses is out, Chuck Wagner is in in the Rapunzel's Prince. Oh, because Jeff Blumencranz had done Rapunzel's Prince in the workshop. I guess he did. But he was now your understudy, and Ben's understudy, and well now Chuck's understudy. Chuck is in, and Bob Westenberg is back as the Wolf and the Prince.

Obviously, we've discussed Betty's out, Bernadette is in, and then you're this is the first I knew that Suzanne Douglas was now out, and Pamela Winslow was in. Yeah, right. Right is it possible that they had cast Pamela Winslow and that Suzanne had been cast as the because didn't Suzanne stay on as the understudy in the run? I believe she was an understudy for a while. Yeah, so maybe she was understudying the stepsisters, yeah. Rapunzel, that's very, very possible. Because also, like Marin Maisie later was like the Rapunzel slash witch understudy. Yeah, and she was that's when I met her, and she was great. Oh god, I and I worked with her later, and I knew her still wonder these people wonderful.

And at some point, I just want to say Jeff Blumencranz became first of all, a really talented composer and lyricist, and he's a great performer and a great voice and a really nice guy. Yeah, and I can say this quick. There was a ten-year concert version after ten years of Into the Woods, and I was in another show and it was opening night, so I couldn't do it. So he did the steward and he brought to my theater for my opening night a huge card that he brought around to everybody in the cast, and they all signed it and said, you know, we'll miss you, have a great opening. And Jeff did that, and it was just I was so touched. I've never forgotten that. And that's it. A lot of these people, we just it was a bonding experience.

It was hard work and it was so satisfying. So I have lots of nice things to say about those people. Anyway, go ahead, back to you. Uh so then you're in Broadway rehearsals, and um were the rehearsals really about getting the show on its feet, or are they continuing to do script changes and score changes during rehearsals? I think there were a lot of changes. As you know, Second Midnight, we were still working on that. Um, I think there were a lot of little things, and I just I can't even remember them all. Um I mean, things I know about are the addition of the Stay With Me reprise called Lament with the little bit of Children Will Listen for the witch and the second act early in the second act, um, after Rapunzel dies.

And then um before well, the addition of Children Will Listen, I guess after Second Midnight is cut, and the addition of the No One is Alone reprise that the Baker's wife sings instead of the moment you described with the narrator. Um the Children Will Listen. Uh there was a big I guess it was Boom Crunch. I mean, the witch had a song that was changed drastically during the Last Midnight, yeah. Last Midnight. Right. Yeah, and then um, oh, something else that I from these demos of cut songs, there's um two that I assumed were cut early, early in the process, but I think one of them might have been in rather late. One was this one I think was cut was cut early, which was a solo for the narrator.

Interesting questions. Uh at the moment. Oh my god, you said the title and it rang a bell, but I have no other memory of the song. And I think the music still is the music we hear in that moment before the narrator's fed to the giant. Um you know, it's funny.

[39:14] Philip Hoffman: I might know that title because it's in the score.

[39:17] Philip Hoffman: Yeah.

[39:19] Philip Hoffman: I think Carolyn Marlowe told me that.

[39:22] Philip Hoffman: I think that's the case.

[39:23] Philip Hoffman: Um, and then the other song I think was just called We Have to Give Her Someone.

[39:30] Philip Hoffman: And it was the group number sung in the moment of debating what to do because the giant wants Jack.

[39:39] Philip Hoffman: We not did we not do that anymore? We have to give someone we have to give us someone to the steward and we didn't do that because I certainly remember that refrain.

[39:48] Philip Hoffman: The dialogue is not all that different from the lyrics, but it's dialogue and not a song.

[39:54] Philip Hoffman: So but so you remember that song well. You have to give her someone. That's all I remember.

[39:59] Philip Hoffman: Yeah. And that it would be, yeah.

[40:02] Philip Hoffman: This one, the no, you can't, you can't get and I I guess it became dialogue.

[40:06] Philip Hoffman: Yeah. Amazing. It's amazing what they do. These writers, these Lapines and Sondheim.

[40:14] Philip Hoffman: Put something together and they say, not quite, let's make a little adjustment. Man, it's just brilliant.

[40:20] Philip Hoffman: Was there ever anything that the steward had to sing, uh, other than that line in Second Midnight that you lost that you remember?

[40:29] Philip Hoffman: Um not to sing, but here's another story.

[40:34] Philip Hoffman: Yeah. Um we were in previews.

[40:38] Philip Hoffman: I'm sorry, I'm laughing because I can't believe it. I don't even think I wrote this one down because I remember this only too well.

[40:45] Philip Hoffman: Uh we're in previews and we're running the scene. The giant's head is to my right, and we're doing those axioms again.

[40:54] Philip Hoffman: I can't remember the word that James always used for him. Uh and we had done some previews, and other people had funny things to say, and they would meld right into each other.

[41:05] Philip Hoffman: And I had one thing to say, and it was, uh, giants are not all as dumb as they seem.

[41:11] Philip Hoffman: And then there were like eight counts of nothing, and it never got a chuckle, and I felt I hated it.

[41:19] Philip Hoffman: And so we're running the scene. Uh, we're probably in our street clothes, and they're all out in the house talking.

[41:25] Philip Hoffman: And I had a lot of chutzpah when I was younger, and sometimes it was appreciated, and sometimes I was taught that it's out of place, but it's all part of my education.

[41:37] Philip Hoffman: I can't believe some of the things I said for another podcast.

[41:42] Philip Hoffman: Anyway, so I walk out on stage and I said, Giants are not all as dumb as they seem, or maybe they are, and apparently all heads popped up, suddenly they were all listening in the house.

[41:54] Philip Hoffman: And when the moment was over, Steven came down and said, uh, Philip, did somebody tell you to say that line?

[42:01] Philip Hoffman: He knew damn well nobody did. Or were you just trying to be?

[42:04] Philip Hoffman: And I said, I'm trying to be funny. I'm like shaking in my boots.

[42:07] Philip Hoffman: And he says, I have to write, I have to rewrite that line, but that's not it.

[42:13] Philip Hoffman: So, first of all, let's pause. Stephen Sondheim just said to me, I need to rewrite that line, it's not good enough.

[42:20] Philip Hoffman: And it was like, wow. But that's not it.

[42:23] Philip Hoffman: And I said, Yeah, right, not it, you know, because I just I was trying to be funny.

[42:27] Philip Hoffman: Later that day, maybe very shortly after that, he says, he comes down, he says, Philip, you know that line you put in? Put it in for tonight.

[42:37] Philip Hoffman: And I said, Oh, he said, Yeah, we'll see if it works.

[42:40] Philip Hoffman: And if it gets a laugh, it stays.

[42:42] Philip Hoffman: And as he's turning away, he says, you know, smirking. If it doesn't, you're fired.

[42:47] Philip Hoffman: And uh so I guess it's funny, I don't remember putting the line in, but I know I did that night.

[42:55] Philip Hoffman: Uh, what I remember is the interaction with Steven.

[42:59] Philip Hoffman: Steve, I I still have trouble calling him Steve. It was always Sondheim or Mr. Sondheim, but even though he was always, he always referred to himself as Steve Daz.

[43:08] Philip Hoffman: He always signed everything Steve. Anyway, obviously they changed the line, and I had to look it up.

[43:14] Philip Hoffman: I had to go back to the video to say because I had so many of those lines, and they came and went.

[43:18] Philip Hoffman: So this one was the greater the good, the harder the blow, which is typical of Sondheim.

[43:25] Philip Hoffman: It it's layered. There's more as you think about it, there's more to it.

[43:30] Philip Hoffman: Um I did the York Theater revival of Merrily.

[43:36] Philip Hoffman: Yes, and Steve was around, and apparently he really liked that one.

[43:39] Philip Hoffman: But yeah, I also knew him from that.

[43:42] Philip Hoffman: And uh I remember performing in one of his birthday things, and he was in the audience, and as I exited the stage, I believe he recognized me when he looked and smiled.

[43:52] Philip Hoffman: And yeah, it was great to, as minor as my connection to him is, it was always great to have that.

[43:58] Philip Hoffman: And oddly, he and my mother were the exact same age.

[44:01] Philip Hoffman: They were born the exact same day.

[44:03] Philip Hoffman: So that was always in my mind.

[44:05] Ben Rimalower: That's amazing. That's an amazing story.

[44:07] Ben Rimalower: Um, I do want to take issue with your saying your connection is minor, but first I just wanna say I just realized before we got on the call.

[44:14] Ben Rimalower: I looked at our at your Wikipedia and we have the same birthday.

[44:18] Philip Hoffman: So yes, yeah.

[44:19] Ben Rimalower: 1954, the same year?

[44:21] Philip Hoffman: Not quite.

[44:22] Ben Rimalower: Uh you're my Taurus brother, so that's nice.

[44:25] Ben Rimalower: Um, but uh just you made me think of it with uh so lines that were cut.

[44:30] Ben Rimalower: I mean, I know those axioms changed a lot. You know, they wanted to find the pithy ones, and I think they did find very pithy ones.

[44:39] Philip Hoffman: No, what is this by the way? This it's speaking of that giant line.

[44:43] Philip Hoffman: Um it there's also the line, uh, not all giants are dumb.

[44:49] Philip Hoffman: Is it me? I don't have a preconceived notion that giants are dumb.

[44:54] Philip Hoffman: Is that something that other people walk around thinking?

[44:57] Philip Hoffman: Somebody said, and it may have been my character, or it honestly, I don't remember if it was me or maybe a little red.

[45:04] Philip Hoffman: Uh something about a dumb giant.

[45:06] Ben Rimalower: Yes. That's what starts it, and then the giant starts.

[45:10] Philip Hoffman: But even but it's so odd.

[45:11] Philip Hoffman: Like, I mean, I get the steward saying a dumb giant because the steward would call anybody a rude.

[45:17] Philip Hoffman: The steward would make assumptions about people unfairly, but the giant said that as if it was like a complex, like, you know, Jews are cheap or something.

[45:26] Philip Hoffman: It's like, no, is that a thing? Dumb giants.

[45:29] Philip Hoffman: Jewish giant.

[45:30] Philip Hoffman: Well, I think the thing is big and slow moving, and you just you equate a lack of intelligence.

[45:40] Philip Hoffman: I guess I think that was part of it.

[45:42] Philip Hoffman: Uh, I think that was all.

[45:44] Ben Rimalower: But it was so maybe James, maybe he had that in mind.

[45:49] Philip Hoffman: Yeah or it was just a direct response to the dumb giant line.

[45:53] Philip Hoffman: I'll add that to my list of follow-up questions for Lapine.

[45:56] Ben Rimalower: Um I only got in for half an hour, so I I couldn't, I couldn't get to everything.

[46:00] Ben Rimalower: You better be careful.

[46:01] Ben Rimalower: And have you talked to Joanna?

[46:03] Philip Hoffman: Yes, and she was so wonderful.

[46:05] Philip Hoffman: So wonderful.

[46:06] Ben Rimalower: Did she tell you about about It Takes Two and what that song is about and why she why she gets pregnant?

[46:12] Philip Hoffman: Oh, listen, it's Joanna's story.

[46:14] Ben Rimalower: Well, listen, I already did my interview with Joanna, so you tell me.

[46:18] Philip Hoffman: Oh I don't want to, I don't want to take it away from her.

[46:21] Philip Hoffman: I mean, you you should if I tell you, there's two parts to it.

[46:24] Philip Hoffman: The second part is fine.

[46:26] Philip Hoffman: But the first part was her interpretation of something, and I thought it was brilliant.

[46:31] Philip Hoffman: But please don't play it on the air until you check it with her.

[46:35] Ben Rimalower: Yes, absolutely.

[46:37] Philip Hoffman: So when I went on as the understudy, this was kind of I'd understudied and done other things, but this I took this so seriously.

[46:44] Philip Hoffman: This was, if I may, my first great job as an understudy.

[46:49] Philip Hoffman: I really wanted to understand everything about it.

[46:51] Philip Hoffman: And I went on, I don't know, two dozen times, and I played the part later in other productions, but that's another story.

[46:58] Philip Hoffman: So I would go see Joanna beforehand, uh, out of respect, and it was fun, and she was always nice.

[47:04] Philip Hoffman: And we would chat about what we expected.

[47:06] Philip Hoffman: And then after I had done it for a while, we would chat more about, uh, you know, oh, this worked and wasn't this nice, and let's try this.

[47:14] Philip Hoffman: And I would do anything she asked because she knew what the fuck she was doing.

[47:19] Philip Hoffman: Um in fact, another digression.

[47:24] Philip Hoffman: A couple months before she left the show, I was going on again.

[47:28] Philip Hoffman: I went to a room as I did. I usually brought her two flowers, and we sat and talked, and she said, Hey, there's this, there's this thing in the bean scene, which is when we buy the cow.

[47:39] Philip Hoffman: It's a rhythm thing. I want to try this, or let's do this, you know.

[47:43] Philip Hoffman: And she demonstrated, and I said, okay, but you know, we've been doing this great, because I loved doing it, working with her, and she would we would pass, we'd exit and come back and cross underneath the stage, and she'd always give me the high sign or say something nice.

[48:00] Philip Hoffman: And there were a couple moments that we had our own little adjustment because we had done it, and I loved it.

[48:05] Philip Hoffman: My job was not just to keep the show moving, but I wanted all the actors to be happy when they said, Oh, Philip's going on, oh, cool. Let's do that thing again. Okay.

[48:14] Philip Hoffman: So she says to me, I want to do a rhythm thing, and it's different.

[48:17] Philip Hoffman: And I said, Of course, but you know, it's working.

[48:19] Philip Hoffman: She said, Ah, humor me.

[48:20] Philip Hoffman: I said, Sure.

[48:21] Philip Hoffman: We did this new thing, and again, it killed because she knew what she was doing.

[48:27] Philip Hoffman: So one time we're talking, and we're talking about It Takes Two, and she gives me the little backstory.

[48:33] Philip Hoffman: Gotta love her for this.

[48:34] Philip Hoffman: And again, please ask her to confirm.

[48:36] Philip Hoffman: The baker and the baker's wife, who never got a name, were kids growing up together.

[48:41] Philip Hoffman: They lived near each other, and they played together, and it was always assumed that they would be together.

[48:46] Philip Hoffman: So they got married, and then life got hard and drudgery and difficult.

[48:54] Philip Hoffman: And they fall out of love, they bicker.

[48:58] Philip Hoffman: When they go into the woods on their journey, they fall in love again.

[49:02] Philip Hoffman: And that's why she gets pregnant.

[49:06] Philip Hoffman: And I thought, oh, the magic is wonderful.

[49:10] Philip Hoffman: So that's part one.

[49:11] Philip Hoffman: Now, part two is It Takes Two.

[49:14] Philip Hoffman: Another wonderful thing I learned from her.

[49:16] Philip Hoffman: You know, it seems like a love song, like they're singing to each other.

[49:20] Philip Hoffman: But she had this other idea, and I was never clear from watching what she and Chip were doing exactly what they wanted.

[49:29] Philip Hoffman: And so I went to her and said, Tell me what you'd love to do there, because I want to support you.

[49:34] Philip Hoffman: And she said, she said, when I sing, you look at me.

[49:41] Philip Hoffman: When you sing, I'm gonna look at you.

[49:44] Philip Hoffman: Because the first part of the song is not looking at the other person saying, You've changed, you're different in the woods.

[49:49] Philip Hoffman: It's out thinking, you're by yourself, it's a monologue, and the other person is gazing adoringly, like, wow, she really looks attractive out here.

[49:58] Philip Hoffman: Look how strong she is.

[49:59] Philip Hoffman: And then I start to sing, you know, she's this, and I thought it took two, I thought it took one, but it took two, and meanwhile, she's looking at me, and that leads to this love song.

[50:10] Philip Hoffman: And it was brilliant, but not the first thing you'd think of.

[50:14] Philip Hoffman: So it's another, it's another thing I think about that she taught me is is where the focus is and how that enhances the moment.

[50:24] Philip Hoffman: And the thing I I loved about that is they fall in love and they go to kiss, and the baker pulls her in and makes a joke and kisses her.

[50:34] Philip Hoffman: In the first revival, the cow pushed them together.

[50:38] Philip Hoffman: And I thought, apologies to the people who decided to do that.

[50:43] Philip Hoffman: I didn't think that was as good.

[50:45] Philip Hoffman: In subsequent things I've seen, the cow might be present and comment, but it's still the two of them falling in love again during that song.

[50:53] Philip Hoffman: And that's the magic.

[50:55] Philip Hoffman: And boy.

[50:56] Philip Hoffman: Anyway, that's that's one of my stories about Joanna.

[50:58] Philip Hoffman: She was great.

[50:59] Ben Rimalower: I love that story.

[51:01] Ben Rimalower: Um tell me more about uh going on uh as the baker or or and then and I I guess you also covered Cinderella's father.

[51:10] Philip Hoffman: I went on once and Cinderella's father.

[51:12] Philip Hoffman: It was almost like a lark.

[51:13] Philip Hoffman: Well, Philip, you know, you could do it, or we could do somebody else.

[51:16] Philip Hoffman: You've never done it, do it.

[51:17] Philip Hoffman: We have a costume for you.

[51:18] Philip Hoffman: So I did it.

[51:19] Ben Rimalower: Because wasn't he um when Tom was out of the show and Dick Cavot was the narrator?

[51:26] Ben Rimalower: Didn't Ed step into Mysterious Man for that period?

[51:30] Philip Hoffman: Yes, and and one of those times, maybe it was more than once, I think it was once.

[51:35] Philip Hoffman: Then I did Cinderella's father, so he could concentrate on the mysterious man.

[51:38] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[51:39] Philip Hoffman: And Dick Cabot.

[51:41] Ben Rimalower: Dick was great.

[51:43] Philip Hoffman: Dick was great.

[51:44] Philip Hoffman: Ben, I'm like gonna crack up here.

[51:46] Philip Hoffman: I have so many stories.

[51:48] Philip Hoffman: I didn't realize it.

[51:49] Philip Hoffman: But let's go back to what you're asking.

[51:52] Philip Hoffman: Going on was fantastic.

[51:55] Philip Hoffman: I loved the part.

[51:57] Philip Hoffman: Singing No More was amazing.

[52:01] Philip Hoffman: Just amazing.

[52:02] Philip Hoffman: And and Tom Aldrich especially was, man, I would look at his eyes and I could see his heart.

[52:07] Philip Hoffman: And I loved it.

[52:10] Philip Hoffman: I always loved it.

[52:11] Philip Hoffman: And as I said, I played it in a couple other productions and got to do it again, which was great.

[52:15] Philip Hoffman: But on Broadway was just so exciting.

[52:17] Philip Hoffman: And Geminiani in the pit.

[52:18] Philip Hoffman: Geminiani's fantastic. I didn't hear you say that you had done other productions.

[52:24] Philip Hoffman: I did a production at Sacramento Music Circus that I loved. It was directed by Glenn Gazal, who's done it a lot, has his understanding of what it's about, about family.

[52:35] Philip Hoffman: I did it with Mary Gordon Murray. I also did it on Broadway with Mary Gordon Murray because she was right. Um, yeah, that was with her.

[52:45] Philip Hoffman: And then I did a college guest artist production. I think that was all with Judy McLean playing the Baker's Wife, who had done it on tour, I think.

[52:57] Philip Hoffman: She may have. Um, but I don't know. You look, you're doing Broadway, you're doing Sondheim, you're doing it, and the cast was great. And since I worked really hard, I know nobody was pissed off when I went on.

[53:09] Philip Hoffman: Um, at one point, Chip was on vacation and came to see the show. And I was actually fighting a cold. You know, nowadays you have a cold, everybody freaks out because they said to me, "You're looking a little green." He said, "You know, I'm in town." I could, I said, "No way, no way am I letting you go on. I got this this week." So, and it was fine. And it was fine.

[53:31] Philip Hoffman: Um, it was great. If you stayed for the whole run.

[53:35] Ben Rimalower: What's that?

[53:36] Philip Hoffman: Did you stay the whole run?

[53:38] Philip Hoffman: I stayed until, no, I left. I no, I was there for a while and I left to do. I think I left to do one, two, three, four, five with Jared Gutierrez at Manhattan Theater. The Maury Yestin piece.

[53:55] Philip Hoffman: Maury Estin, Larry Gelbart, more stories there, more stories there, just a few, but uh, which later, after Larry passed and they dissolved the partnership on the song. Maury rewrote it with somebody else and renamed it, retitled it "History Loves Company," which is a much better title.

[54:15] Philip Hoffman: But Larry Gilbert was great, and it turns out he went to grade school with my dad. Another story. Um, so I think I left, and then a bunch of us came back to do the five performances for PBS, for which I will be eternally grateful.

[54:28] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[54:29] Philip Hoffman: Uh, and then I left again. No, Adam, Adam Groner.

[54:34] Philip Hoffman: Rupper. Grumper. Rupper. Yeah. I know the Adams. There's several, they're friends. He came in and took over. Jeff Blumencranz might have done more. Uh, I don't know who they all were.

[54:47] Philip Hoffman: Did, uh, no, that was another play. Were you never in the show when Kay McLelland was the Baker's Wife?

[54:54] Philip Hoffman: Oh, uh, she was understudy, and I'm pretty sure I did it with her, or at least rehearsed with her. I remember her. She was the final, she was the final Baker's Wife, too.

[55:03] Ben Rimalower: Oh well, I don't exactly remember.

[55:06] Philip Hoffman: Yeah. Um, when we came back to do it, as I recall for the PBS, Bernadette did five shows, but Joanna stayed the full week.

[55:20] Philip Hoffman: I'd like somebody to confirm that, but that's my memory. Because they recorded it over five performances. And I saw I was signing in one day and Steve was there, and he paid me a compliment because he's watching, you know, he was in the truck watching all the videotape, and he paid me a compliment, which he was wont to do with a lot of people. He loved to do that. He was good. But I was like, well, uh, you're not so bad yourself. I mean, what do you say? What do you say to someone who's done everything he's done? Amazing, just freaking amazing.

[55:53] Philip Hoffman: But Kay was there as the sister, of course, and then at the end. Yeah. Um, and uh, okay, so uh, do you just did so you did the show um longer than um Bernadette?

[56:09] Philip Hoffman: Uh, she left very early. Do you have any memories of Felicia Rashad or Betsy Josley?

[56:15] Philip Hoffman: Yes, uh, Felicia was very nice, worked really hard, took it seriously. I had no idea what she would be like coming in. She was lovely, and I was on as the Baker her last weekend, I remember. And I came to see her to tell her, you know, it's been great, and congratulations on your life. And she said, "Oh, you're doing it tonight. Oh, you're good." I mean, it was just a sweet thing. You know, there's a lot of people, there's a lot of negativity, there's a lot of stuff in our business, you know, because it's hard. But the people who are nice, and I've met so many, even if they're just being polite, it makes such a difference.

[56:50] Philip Hoffman: Yeah, and she was lovely. She was great. Now, Betsy, I got a Betsy story. Betsy was fantastic. And I've known her, I guess that's when I met her, but you know, she's always done great stuff. And she did it, and she did it for a long time. And to my knowledge, they were searching for a name, so she was always an understudy, even though she went on over and over and over again, which was great for her.

[57:13] Philip Hoffman: So I gotta, I gotta drink a lot of water. This is too much. We had technical difficulties a few times in the show with the show temporarily stopped. Different things. So this day, I'm on. Dick Cavett is the narrator, Betsy's the Witch. It's time for the transformation.

[57:33] Philip Hoffman: So she's in the cape, she's moving around, and you know, the mysterious man dies, and the Baker's Wife is, "Oh, I'm gonna have a baby," and the Baker is like, "Oh, my father, but oh, the baby, but oh my father, he's dying, and he's my father." I didn't know. And we, there were these sort of standard ad libs that everybody did, and I did the same ones when I was on.

[57:55] Philip Hoffman: So we're doing it, and Paul Geminiani is, you know, the vampire, whatever it is. And I, we do it, and I don't see the Witch. And so I kind of start over and I kind of rephrase, and everybody's doing the same thing, little pandemonium, and no Witch. And I start in on the third time, and I started to feel like, whoa, when are we gonna stop the show? What the heck's going on? And suddenly Betsy in her gown and no cape runs in from stage right and strikes her pose, and Geminiani goes bang.

[58:31] Philip Hoffman: And nobody knew who she was because she didn't have the cape and she wasn't as well known as Bernadette. So it was just this woman and Dick Cavett said, "The Witch and her youth and beauty." And I think it's in the beginning of the next scene when we're saying everything's returned to normal. Dick Cavett said, "In case you were wondering who that Chantouze was," and my cousins were in the audience and said, "Oh, I'm so glad he said that because I didn't know who she was." Amazing. Betsy was, and Betsy was great. Man, every lyric, every word you could hear, she was wonderful and so nice.

[59:10] Philip Hoffman: Yeah, yeah. Great, great memories. Were you, were you gone already when Nancy Dusseau came in?

[59:16] Philip Hoffman: Yeah, I was. I was. And then when we came in to do the PBS thing, she was asked to miss those performances.

[59:24] Philip Hoffman: Yeah, you know, she might have been back for the last three that week. Right. I don't recall. I don't recall who played it that, those last three performances.

[59:34] Philip Hoffman: Yeah. Because I was, as I said, only back for a week. Interesting. Someone has a very, very, very grainy but professionally shot video with Nancy that they had described as being shot prior to the filming, so that James had something to work with for planning camera shots.

[59:56] Philip Hoffman: But now I'm thinking it might have been from those performances that week after Bernadette was gone already, but they could still cut away to moments with other characters.

[1:00:07] Ben Rimalower: What you're thinking, wait, you're thinking it might have been that they were PTS video?

[1:00:11] Philip Hoffman: You're thinking of the grainy video you're talking about. Well, the grainy video they were saying was filmed professionally by the same company to use to plan the camera shots. But I'm thinking it that was a guess though, that it also may have been from one of the nights after Bernadette was gone gone.

[1:00:27] Ben Rimalower: Oh, I see.

[1:00:28] Philip Hoffman: As I said, she may have come back. I got you. Because they could have, they still, even if they didn't use which material from that night, they could have cut away to agony if it was better that night or whatever. I don't know, but the performance that made the cut.

[1:00:43] Philip Hoffman: Yeah. Um, I don't know if it was several performances. They could have easily mixed performances, but oh, it is for certain. I think I've heard that it's from three shows.

[1:00:52] Philip Hoffman: That would be very possible because they tried a couple and they practiced and then they did something, depending on what they had. Because so many things can go wrong technically.

[1:01:02] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, or even just small things, you know, somebody's shirt collar pops in a weird way that's distracting, you know.

[1:01:08] Philip Hoffman: Right. Uh, live theater. Um man, yeah. Well, uh, I'm so happy that it was preserved so beautifully because it is such a treasure for time. Grateful. When I keep meeting people who said they watched it, it's just, it warms my heart.

[1:01:26] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:01:27] Philip Hoffman: Well, I'm so grateful to you. I mean, it's really, it's a treat to talk to you. I could talk to you for hours and hours. Um, this is so great to have all this insight.

[1:01:35] Philip Hoffman: Yeah, I feel like there's more, but oftentimes I, uh, I don't remember them all. Oh, there was the time I fell down.

[1:01:43] Ben Rimalower: Oh, what was that?

[1:01:46] Philip Hoffman: Uh, it was with Joanna. I loved my costume. Okay, two things that costume just remind me. And then I'm done. So this one. You know, there's a, there's a website, there's a Facebook group called "I Fell Down on Broadway." Hilarious. And there's a bunch of stories in it, including mine. And if you ever talk to Nancy Opal.

[1:02:06] Ben Rimalower: Oh, yes, I've heard her story.

[1:02:08] Philip Hoffman: It's fantastic. From Evita, you mean, right? So I'm coming in to find the Baker's Wife, and she's got the shoe. She just got it from Cinderella. Cinderella runs off, and I'm the first one on. And I'm running up the stairs to the sweep. I love my costume. It was so funny. This pear-shaped thing. I wore this bodysuit with padding. When it hung on a hanger, it looked like a plucked turkey. Get ready.

[1:02:32] Philip Hoffman: But sometimes the knees were a little tight. And for whatever reason, this day, I'm running up the stairs, and suddenly I say, "I'm falling." And yeah, I can't stop myself. And next thing I know, I'm on my back, and I think, okay, nothing hurts. Let's go. Where's my staff? And I look, and just under the sweep is my staff now shortened to about 14 inches because it must have broken my fall.

[1:02:56] Philip Hoffman: And I pick it up and I run around and I say whatever the line is to the Baker's Wife with it. And she looked at me like, "Are you okay?" And apparently I was. So we finished the scene, and there I am for the rest of the scene. You know, the prince comes in, I think Jack's mother comes in, and I'm holding this scepter in one hand instead of my six-foot tall staff. Totally bizarre. I felt so, I love that.

[1:03:25] Philip Hoffman: Um, and the last thing that you saying costumes reminded me of. I think it was costumes and not props, and I guess it was rehearsal. But um, we're in this room and there was a question. I don't know if it was about the Witch, honestly, or if it was about the Wolf, because the Wolf's package was always a question how much to show, how much not. But there was a discussion, and we were in the rehearsal room, and Ann Hold Ward and James and a stage manager and an actor, I don't remember who, and somebody else, they all came together with positive enthusiasm to solve the problem.

[1:04:02] Philip Hoffman: And I wasn't part of it, but I sort of walked by and I couldn't listen to their discussion. But I thought, this is what it's all about. They're just coming, and everybody's has their input, everybody's listening, and they're gonna solve the problem and figure something out. And I just, it's one of my best memories of being in the theater, being in the musical theater, and how wonderful it is.

[1:04:29] Ben Rimalower: Well, it sounds like this was truly one of the greatest experiences a person could ask for in it.

[1:04:34] Philip Hoffman: It was, and uh, we're all so grateful to have it as fans.

[1:04:39] Ben Rimalower: So thank you for that, and your very significant connection to the Sondheim Pantheon.

[1:04:39] Philip Hoffman: Yeah, wow. I'm really lucky and really happy that I had that I was a part of it.

[1:04:53] Ben Rimalower: Absolutely. Absolutely.

[1:04:57] Philip Hoffman: Thank you for listening to Giants in the Sky, how Sondheim and Lapine went into the woods on the Broadway Podcast Network. Look out for episode 24 with Mary Gordon Murray, the Baker's Wife on tour and Broadway replacement.