This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Ben Rimalower: Broadway Podcast Network presents Giants in the Sky, How Sondheim and Lapine Went Into the Woods with me, Ben Rimalower.

[0:08] Ben Rimalower: Today's guest, Mary Gordon Murray, the Baker's Wife on tour and Broadway replacement.

[0:14] Ben Rimalower: Once upon a time.

[0:20] Ben Rimalower: Mary Gordon Murray originated the role of the Baker's Wife on the first national tour of Into the Woods after having taken over the role in the Broadway Company.

[0:29] Ben Rimalower: She played Gussie in James Lapine's production of Merrily We Roll Along at the La Jolla Playhouse, as well as in the acclaimed Arena Stage production.

[0:36] Ben Rimalower: She was nominated for the Tony Award for Best Leading Actress in a Musical for the first revival of Little Me, and also appeared on Broadway in Three Tall Women, Hands on a Hardbody, Footloose, Coastal Disturbances, I Love My Wife, and The Robber Bridegroom.

[0:51] Ben Rimalower: Her off-Broadway credits include One, Two, Three, Four, Five, The Knife, and A My Name Is Alice.

[0:57] Ben Rimalower: And she has played many, many film and television roles consistently over the last several decades.

[1:13] Mary Gordon Murray: Because I wanted a granular kind of chronicling of how Into the Woods came to be.

[1:20] Mary Gordon Murray: Yeah, of course, Sunday in the Park with George. I had always known it's part of the story of Sondheim's career, is that the failure of Merrily We Roll Along on Broadway was very much a part of what led him to working with a new collaborator in a new world off-Broadway and nonprofit and all that.

[1:40] Mary Gordon Murray: And um, but I did not realize how much Merrily had to do with Into the Woods, also, because of the production that you guys did at the La Jolla Playhouse.

[1:52] Mary Gordon Murray: And that, you know, I had known about that production vaguely, but I didn't realize that that had been really being thought of as a pre-New York production.

[2:03] Ben Rimalower: And that's the idea.

[2:05] Mary Gordon Murray: Into the Woods rests.

[2:07] Ben Rimalower: Wait a minute, say that again.

[2:08] Mary Gordon Murray: What about you cut out?

[2:09] Mary Gordon Murray: I guess because of that not happening, Into the Woods happened sooner.

[2:15] Mary Gordon Murray: And I guess if that had, if you guys had been doing Merrily in New York, there would have been a whole different, you know, who knows what would have happened with Into the Woods.

[2:25] Mary Gordon Murray: And uh, so because I thought I was really, I was like, it's great that I'm talking to you, but I won't even be editing stuff about the Broadway run and about the national tour for a couple of weeks.

[2:36] Mary Gordon Murray: But actually, you're really part of the prehistory of Into the Woods.

[2:41] Ben Rimalower: Um, so uh tell me about that production. Was that something that the actors knew going into the audition?

[2:48] Mary Gordon Murray: Or did you audition for that?

[2:49] Mary Gordon Murray: I don't know.

[2:49] Mary Gordon Murray: Oh god, yes.

[2:50] Mary Gordon Murray: Oh god, yes.

[2:51] Mary Gordon Murray: So that was the first time I ever auditioned.

[2:53] Mary Gordon Murray: Oh, no, that's not a lie. I had auditioned for Side by Side by Sondheim when I was like 23 or something.

[2:57] Ben Rimalower: Oh, for the original?

[2:59] Mary Gordon Murray: No, it was for like a San Francisco company or something, but it was the first time.

[3:05] Mary Gordon Murray: I don't think I auditioned for Hal.

[3:07] Mary Gordon Murray: No, I don't remember.

[3:08] Mary Gordon Murray: I just remember it.

[3:10] Mary Gordon Murray: First time I, this first time I auditioned for Sondheim.

[3:12] Mary Gordon Murray: Yeah, uh for whatever reason.

[3:13] Mary Gordon Murray: God, how could it not be so Hal?

[3:15] Mary Gordon Murray: But um no, Hal didn't direct Side by Side, did he?

[3:18] Mary Gordon Murray: I guess he just presented it.

[3:19] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[3:21] Mary Gordon Murray: So that was the other whoever that was that I'm Ned Sharon, I think.

[3:24] Ben Rimalower: That's right.

[3:25] Mary Gordon Murray: That's right.

[3:25] Mary Gordon Murray: And um, I just remember the first time I, you know, he shook his head yes after I'd sung it. I wanted to die afterward, you know, so thrilled.

[3:32] Mary Gordon Murray: But um, but then cut to I was doing a soap opera at the time, One Life to Live, and I did that for quite a few years, and I'm playing a very sweet, sweet character on One Life to Live.

[3:42] Mary Gordon Murray: And um, and I got this audition for Merrily We Roll Along and it was ironic because when I, they were first doing it, they wanted that young cast.

[3:53] Mary Gordon Murray: It was all about them being this, you know, super young.

[3:56] Mary Gordon Murray: And I think that I didn't get an audition.

[3:58] Mary Gordon Murray: And at the time I was 27, and uh I got Little Me instead, which worked out fine, but um, listen, you gotta tell you I gotta try because that was okay, but I was devastated.

[4:09] Mary Gordon Murray: One of the reasons I got for my agent was we think you're a little too old. They really want to go with young people.

[4:12] Mary Gordon Murray: So I'm like 27 and I'm already too old for a Sondheim. I'm, I'm, I was dying.

[4:19] Mary Gordon Murray: So cut to the chase, um, Little Me happened, that was fine.

[4:23] Mary Gordon Murray: And then uh, they're doing this revamped version, not a revival, really.

[4:28] Mary Gordon Murray: Um, James and George and Steve were working on this to really do a rewrite.

[4:34] Mary Gordon Murray: And so I auditioned for it.

[4:36] Mary Gordon Murray: I was still on the soap.

[4:38] Mary Gordon Murray: And I technically didn't have any way to be written out for something as extensive as three months.

[4:43] Mary Gordon Murray: So I was leaving and I actually left the soap and went into that and of course thought this is, I mean, their hope was that it would come.

[4:50] Mary Gordon Murray: They weren't just doing it to do it.

[4:51] Mary Gordon Murray: Oh yeah, like George and James, you know, they had nothing else to do.

[4:54] Mary Gordon Murray: They just wanted the Pulitzer, James and Steve for Sunday in the Park.

[4:58] Mary Gordon Murray: They were doing fine.

[4:59] Mary Gordon Murray: They didn't need to like go and hang out by the beach, you know.

[5:03] Mary Gordon Murray: They were working on it and really doing a rewrite.

[5:06] Mary Gordon Murray: And um, it was very exciting.

[5:07] Mary Gordon Murray: And of course I thought, well, I'm just gonna leave from the soap, and then I'll just have this wonderful role in Stephen Sondheim's rebound with James and everything's fabulous, yeah.

[5:17] Mary Gordon Murray: And then it didn't happen, which was devastating.

[5:19] Mary Gordon Murray: But um, you know, it was an incredibly wonderful experience.

[5:24] Mary Gordon Murray: And for me, up until then, I had, you know, I look like this.

[5:28] Mary Gordon Murray: I mean, I still basically have a big old pudding face and I play nice people, and I'm a pretty nice person.

[5:33] Mary Gordon Murray: So I went in there and auditioned for Gussie, and they wanted me to read for Beth.

[5:40] Mary Gordon Murray: I left something and I did audition for Sweeney Todd, the original for the great invention, you know, and um, I was like, that's not really my wheelhouse, but I squeaked my way through it and I thought, oh, I should not have really gone in there for a soprano role.

[5:56] Mary Gordon Murray: That's not really what I do.

[5:57] Mary Gordon Murray: So they asked me to audition for Beth as well, and I declined because at that point I thought Beth was a soprano.

[6:04] Mary Gordon Murray: I don't know what I thought, but I thought, no, I can't do that again.

[6:06] Mary Gordon Murray: I can't do it.

[6:07] Mary Gordon Murray: It's like Sweeney.

[6:09] Mary Gordon Murray: Um, so uh anyway, Gussie is this incredibly arch, um, they're sophisticated, not really sophisticated, faux sophisticated socialite, you know, um, climbing, so socially climbing creature, phony as a two-dollar bill in a certain way.

[6:27] Mary Gordon Murray: And it was like crazy, it was so thrilling to audition for it, and so not stuff that I'd ever been cast in at that point.

[6:34] Mary Gordon Murray: And uh, and I getting a role was unbelievable on so many levels.

[6:39] Mary Gordon Murray: I mean, working with them and doing that role, like this hilariously arched role.

[6:45] Mary Gordon Murray: Like, what?

[6:46] Mary Gordon Murray: So I left the soap and I went out into that, and um, it was one of the, it was truly for me, probably just personally as an actor, like a turning point.

[6:55] Mary Gordon Murray: Like it was just to even explore that and be in that company and be with them.

[7:00] Mary Gordon Murray: It was crazy.

[7:01] Mary Gordon Murray: And we were in La Jolla, and it was gorgeous, like it was just absurdly terrific.

[7:06] Mary Gordon Murray: Um, and sadly, for a number of reasons, we had a bunch of producers come out and it was a performance wasn't the best audience that day.

[7:06] Mary Gordon Murray: It's just one of those that happens they got cold feet about it and we were all kind of devastated.

[7:06] Mary Gordon Murray: We went back to New York and got a letter, a very kind letter from James just saying, you know, stuff happens.

[7:06] Mary Gordon Murray: So then several years later, I uh, they decided to try it again.

[7:06] Mary Gordon Murray: James didn't want to be a part of it, so Steve was doing a rewrite with George at Arena Stage and I did that again.

[7:06] Mary Gordon Murray: Um, so we tried it twice and I guess the one that finally went off-Broadway, it was then Susan Schulman, right?

[7:06] Mary Gordon Murray: And she wanted to kind of start from scratch.

[7:06] Mary Gordon Murray: She wanted her own company and that was the end of me being a part of it, which was kind of devastating.

[7:06] Mary Gordon Murray: But in between, in between those two productions, Into the Woods happens.

[7:06] Mary Gordon Murray: So I went in to audition for what seemed appropriate to them.

[7:06] Mary Gordon Murray: They had me in for the Witch because that made sense, right?

[7:06] Ben Rimalower: I mean, what point in the development was your lab?

[7:06] Mary Gordon Murray: First lab?

[7:06] Mary Gordon Murray: Very first lab, yeah.

[7:06] Mary Gordon Murray: I just, um, just early stages.

[7:06] Mary Gordon Murray: It was just a show about fairy tales, didn't have a name yet and I had to do a rap song.

[7:06] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[7:06] Mary Gordon Murray: That was what they wanted, they wanted a rap song.

[7:06] Mary Gordon Murray: So I still remember this, I brought in my own pianist and you know, because it was like rap, what am I doing?

[7:06] Mary Gordon Murray: Needless to say, I didn't get that.

[7:06] Mary Gordon Murray: Um, and uh, and so time goes by, the show opens, it's a hit, Joanna wins the Tony and for whatever reason she moves on, decides to leave and they're looking for a Baker's Wife.

[7:06] Mary Gordon Murray: And um, I'm like, that's a role I'm really like Gussie was, Gussie was kind of a stretch, but the role, you know, that I usually play is funny, nice, you know, my warm, kind of smart, kind of whatever.

[8:58] Mary Gordon Murray: Like that feels right.

[9:00] Mary Gordon Murray: And my agent got back to me and said, they don't really think you're right for it.

[9:05] Mary Gordon Murray: And I, yeah, which I totally understood.

[9:08] Mary Gordon Murray: You know, totally understood.

[9:09] Mary Gordon Murray: That was their experience of me.

[9:10] Mary Gordon Murray: I mean, it's in a certain sense it's flattering because it was so different what I had, you know, done for that.

[9:15] Mary Gordon Murray: I hope James is gonna, if he listens to this, goes like that's not what happened, but this is what I was told by my agent.

[9:20] Mary Gordon Murray: This is so that's anything.

[9:21] Mary Gordon Murray: Everybody, even people that were in the room together remember the things very differently.

[9:26] Mary Gordon Murray: All these years later, especially.

[9:26] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[9:29] Mary Gordon Murray: Well, I did something I never would do in a million years.

[9:32] Mary Gordon Murray: In a billion trillion years, I called my agent and said, can you ask them to just see me for it as a favor?

[9:37] Ben Rimalower: Like, what?

[9:40] Mary Gordon Murray: But I mean, I knew that it was, it had been a good experience with them.

[9:43] Mary Gordon Murray: I, you know, um, and this was between when I, oh anyway.

[9:49] Mary Gordon Murray: So um, I'm trying to think of when actually I did Gussie the second time.

[9:53] Mary Gordon Murray: I think it was actually after it, but I'm losing my mind.

[9:55] Mary Gordon Murray: Yeah, because Gussie was the Arena Stage was 1990.

[9:58] Ben Rimalower: Got it.

[9:59] Mary Gordon Murray: So it was actually after this.

[10:00] Mary Gordon Murray: So, you know, still, still I was Gussie.

[10:03] Mary Gordon Murray: But uh, I did and they got right back.

[10:06] Mary Gordon Murray: I mean, at least this is what my agent told me.

[10:08] Mary Gordon Murray: And said, okay, they'll give you, you know, they'll give you five minutes.

[10:13] Mary Gordon Murray: And uh, I went there and Chip was there.

[10:14] Mary Gordon Murray: And they needed someone fast because Joanna was leaving and um, and they already had the understudies on.

[10:20] Mary Gordon Murray: I guess it would, I don't know what happened.

[10:22] Mary Gordon Murray: Uh, but um, so it was very, very quick turnaround for it.

[10:26] Mary Gordon Murray: And I kind of get back to a message actually from James because they needed that he wanted me to watch the show all weekend, so I could start rehearsal on Monday, and there was no time to even, I think we didn't even negotiate.

[10:35] Mary Gordon Murray: There was it was like Friday.

[10:37] Mary Gordon Murray: And I was like, okay, I'll go watch, you know, I'll go watch like every show that I can while she was still there.

[10:43] Mary Gordon Murray: She was leaving that Sunday.

[10:45] Mary Gordon Murray: Um, I, they didn't have the understudy on yet, they were just about to.

[10:48] Mary Gordon Murray: The whole time I was rehearsing, the cover was on, so at least I got to see her a few more times.

[10:52] Mary Gordon Murray: And um, so that was it.

[10:54] Mary Gordon Murray: It was crazy.

[10:55] Mary Gordon Murray: Like, like it was very, very amazing to get to do that for them.

[10:59] Ben Rimalower: And were you going in to, I mean, I know Bernadette had left after just a couple months, but besides her was Joanna, was it the rest of the original cast?

[11:08] Mary Gordon Murray: Everybody else was still there.

[11:09] Mary Gordon Murray: Everyone else was still there.

[11:10] Mary Gordon Murray: Uh, Bernadette had left.

[11:12] Mary Gordon Murray: Betsy Joslyn was now doing The Witch, and she did it for a very long time.

[11:16] Mary Gordon Murray: She was incredible.

[11:17] Mary Gordon Murray: She went out.

[11:17] Mary Gordon Murray: I would eventually do the national tour of Into the Woods as well.

[11:23] Mary Gordon Murray: Which was pretty freaking great for her. She was amazing. Um, so yeah, so Betsy was doing it. So was you and Shift and you had already worked together in Maryland. On Marile. On Marile, yeah. Well, one more question about Marile was in either of those versions at La Jolla and at Arena. Did you have that additional um what do they call it? The act two opening for Gussie where she sings like a very like that was the thing going like Bob Fawcett style. That was in only an arena that I remember. That was added on for Arena. There was a change for the character that Doug Wager wanted. He was the director and the artistic director of Arena, and he restored her back to the original concept of the role.

Um, I I I okay, so James, if you're listening, but and George is no longer here, but I I thought personally, what George had done, the original Copernic Heart was she was a diva um great actress of the theater. And to make her because it was updated, and this was the world of musicals. George sort of intuitively rewrote her as a socialite to make it make more sense to keep the archness. Because when you're talking musicals, you're talking Ethel, Mary Martin. Like, who are we talking about that's Arch and Right? But Doug wanted it restored. So when I did it the second time, it was very odd. I'm suddenly doing like that opening of the second act where I'm this musical comedy gal, but she still speaks like the Kaufman and Hart kind of phony lady.

And those ladies were the salt of the earth. So it kind of didn't make a lot of actual sense. And I just think George was being a good soldier and did what Doug wanted. Um, God bless Doug. I I don't know that musicals, oh god, can I say this dog Jesus? I don't know that that was a big part of his world up until then. So um I and it certainly wasn't for me to say, hey, I think this, you know, obviously I loved it the first way. I I was so embedded in it. So that may have been me as well. I'm sure you made it work, Mary, and it was all integrated into your character. Fine. It was fine, but it we always felt like we were doing apples and oranges in the second one. And it was so intuitively brilliant with what George had done. He had made her work for that time period, you know.

[13:40] Mary Gordon Murray: Yeah. And then uh going back to the emphasis, but then he brought it back and then moving ahead with the baker's wife. I'm so curious about um your experience of it being the person that had to follow directly following. Oh because it I mean, into the woods, you didn't um it because they now with that video that was made of the original production, people, it's not even a musical where you know the cast album. People know the book scenes. I mean, we all remember the way Joanna said these lines that are not um they're not laugh lines, but she was so funny. Stop the show. And it's yeah, and it's and I always think about what a challenge it is when I watch, you know, um like the revival 20 years ago, um, the woman with Vanessa Williams, Carrie O'Malley, I thought was so wonderful as the baker's wife, and sang it beautifully, and it felt like she got a bum rap because just because she wasn't Joanna, but all she could have done would been then to copy Joanna, which wouldn't have been as good as Joanna either. So it seemed, and I wonder if you felt like you were up against that same thing.

[14:50] Mary Gordon Murray: So here's my here's my take on it after many years of thinking about it. Oh my god, James, if you're listening, I mean, my you know, hope this hair doesn't burst into flames. To me, what's interesting is Mary Gordon Murray, dramaturg. Take it or leave it, take it for what it's worth. To me, between Joanna, and I wasn't there for that process, but James was directing his own material. Yeah. So there's a shorthand that I think would happen with someone like Joanna, and like somebody who's as good a director as James is, where some of this stuff was just born between the writing, the directing, and the performance. And it's almost like uh uh, I mean, I can only imagine it's just this this talent thing that didn't have to be explained.

Um, but the the other side of that is discovering what's on the page and what she created and what they created together, because it was all in that room. And let me tell you why that is apropos to me. Going into that production took me a while, uh, quite frankly. And when we finally were doing the tour, I got to go back to the drawing board with James in the room and a cast, and it was within a couple of weeks, but at least it got to be like me able to process it and find my own mark. Um, but it was still that production, it was still James at the helm. It was still James who wrote it, directed it. All of that was still there, it could still be curated. I've since done performances and productions.

The first time I was asked to, I turned it down. Intuitively, I just went, unless everything around it supports what she created, quite frankly, and what they created. Yeah, I don't know if I could do it. And frankly, I was fine. But I had enough time to watch her, and enough time when I finally put the little things together to make my place in that production, I think, work. It took me a while. Um, but uh it was courtesy of all of that. So I it is fascinating. It is fascinating. I, you know, it's a tricky role because everyone remembers it and it is just a brilliant performance. And then it's like other people have a hard time. I think I eventually benefited from still being in James production and eventually figured it out and got very nice reviews, and it worked out well. He, you know, um, but it was you know, it was bumpy for me to figure out what that was. It was so fast, and um, it was just so organic what they had created.

[17:19] Ben Rimalower: Did you remember specifically any of the uh moments or uh any material that you felt on Broadway you were struggling, and then when you had your own um drawing board process, you've you've said, Oh, I this is mine now.

[17:34] Mary Gordon Murray: Yeah, well, sure. I mean, there are so many because her humor and their humor, it was them together, you know what I mean? They created this. He could shouldn't do that alone. No, he could have trunked anything she did. And he didn't. He, you know, he was smart and as a director and as a writer. Um, but there were the jokes, you know. She got a I just watched a production at a believe it or not, at a high school out here, the Archer's school, because someone I worked with an Amda musical directed it. She asked me, the girls would love to meet you. Would you come and do it? It's all girls playing all the girls. Love it. Adorable. And of course, you know, all I could think of is I heard all of these lines that stopped the show.

And eventually I figured out how to curate, like, like, like the, you know, doing, I don't know, connect the dots. Um, but I mean, she stopped the show with you forgot your scarf. Yeah. Stopped it, Cole. Like applause practically. You forgot your freaking scarf. And there's a girl doing you forgot your scarf. You know, I mean, if you watch that performance, it's a high school. You know, the witch is brilliant, but but it's just a sweet, sweet, lovely line. I mean, she mined things that were just part of this whole thing, but that they created this line through that was brilliant, this kind of ahead of her time. Um, she would have been a CE. I always thought of her as she would have been a CEO if she was, you know, in a different time frame. This brilliant woman left behind in this world that she has to keep herself, you know. Um, and Joanna was such a blend of comedy and intelligence and earthiness.

[19:04] Mary Gordon Murray: Yeah, all three. Uh it's a pretty it's a triple threat kind of thing. So, like with with that line, what was your way into that line when I I stole everything I could from her. Quite frankly. What why would I not? Yeah, just bull-faced, you know, I was behind a tree, and she's watching, and it just became, you know, what are you doing here? You forgot your scarf. I mean, it just became the dryness that she had created. She did this whole one could just do the deadpan. Yeah. But there was such a spark of um of smart and and and urgency and need in her, you know, that uh it was large. It was an artist. And I eventually took a little bit, a little bit. It felt like I was playing, you know, could truly connect the dots. But uh, but it it turned out to be just one of them, just an amazing role to play. Incredible production.

[19:59] Ben Rimalower: And let me ask you about that tour, because um James Lapine and Paul Ford and Ira Weitzman and Chip Zion spoke so highly of Ray Gill. And I know apparently that it was actually very hard for Chip to get cast as the baker because James so had his heart set on Ray Gill. And um I or at least uh that's the way it was portrayed to me. I mean, I didn't I didn't actually still don't understand that they had made actually that maybe Ray had had passed away before they got to do into the woods, but then I saw no, he's who went out on the road. Did the tour and Cleola tour together? So I didn't know whether he got sick then or he had another job or why he didn't go to San Diego with them. Um but uh I thought, well, no, these are Ethereum on a podcast, so you know I don't know. See, so much of this is you're told something.

[20:56] Mary Gordon Murray: Yeah, well, but then who knows what's actually accurate? I can tell you that I thought, and Chip can take what I'm saying and go, you're lying. Yeah, but um I thought Chip. I this is could be totally wrong. [21:09] The chip had been offered it and he had a conflict or something like that happened. Ray had done it, but they eventually got back to Chip. That's what I thought had happened. I could be definitely.

[21:18] Ben Rimalower: No, I'm pretty sure you're wrong because I mean maybe that's what happened at the very, very first.

[21:23] Mary Gordon Murray: I think very, very, very like lab land.

[21:26] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, but like once they had done the workshop at playwrights with Ray.

[21:30] Mary Gordon Murray: Oh no, but that couldn't have been the first reading because Chip was in it. He played a prince and he played Rumpel Stillskin.

[21:37] Ben Rimalower: And apparently James hated him as the prince.

[21:41] Mary Gordon Murray: Um and so then uh when they went to do the second workshop, uh which uh they they didn't even think of Chip. And they had Ray as, or sorry, the first workshop, you know, the second incarnation, and they had Ray as the baker. Maybe Ray was even in the first reading. I don't I don't know who was the baker in that one. But they they loved Ray so much, and then um for whatever reason they weren't going with Ray to go to San Diego. Chip wanted to play it, or Ira wanted Chip to play it, and James had to be like really convinced because I mean he loved Chip, even though he hadn't liked his performance as the prince, but he didn't, he saw a Ray Gill type and they were auditioning Ray Gil type.

[22:27] Mary Gordon Murray: Well, I mean, Ray was just a big baker looking guy, big warm, you know, yeah.

[22:32] Ben Rimalower: I mean, he was but what? Did you ask James? Have you interviewed him?

[22:36] Mary Gordon Murray: Yeah, James went on and on about how Ray was so wonderful and great to work with and warm.

[22:43] Mary Gordon Murray: And uh they all were like in love with Ray.

[22:46] Ben Rimalower: Uh did he tell you why they switched?

[22:48] Mary Gordon Murray: He didn't tell you.

[22:49] Ben Rimalower: No, they all made it sound.

[22:50] Mary Gordon Murray: I thought maybe Ray had passed away prior to Into the Woods getting on its feet because they made it sound like they just kept being, unfortunately, you know, we lost him.

[22:59] Ben Rimalower: It was such a tragedy and all that, you know.

[23:02] Mary Gordon Murray: Um and I mean I know he died after the tour.

[23:05] Ben Rimalower: He left the tour because he's 1992, yeah.

[23:08] Mary Gordon Murray: He left the tour because he was sick.

[23:09] Ben Rimalower: So I so I don't know what happened, but I just do know that I wish I'd gotten to see.

[23:14] Mary Gordon Murray: I mean, obviously I grew up watching the video with Chip, but I'm just so curious about this man that they all loved and who was uh James and Sondheim's idea of a baker, yeah.

[23:28] Ben Rimalower: Wow, I had no idea.

[23:30] Mary Gordon Murray: Because I can't frankly, I can't imagine that would have been a career-making thing for Ray that he would turn it down.

[23:37] Ben Rimalower: That that was like a breakthrough for him to even.

[23:40] Mary Gordon Murray: Maybe he had started, maybe he had gotten sick and then gotten well again and was able to go on the road or no.

[23:45] Ben Rimalower: I don't think he even knew he was sick then.

[23:47] Mary Gordon Murray: Oh he f he tested positive on the road, and that as a matter of fact, he'd been he tested negative on the road.

[23:52] Ben Rimalower: He didn't know why he didn't feel so well, and um asked them to reduce his amount of performances.

[23:59] Mary Gordon Murray: And the producers wouldn't go for it, and they let him go.

[24:03] Ben Rimalower: Um, and that's when the understudy, Marcus Olsen took over.

[24:06] Mary Gordon Murray: Yeah.

[24:06] Ben Rimalower: Um, but he was just not well.

[24:08] Mary Gordon Murray: I mean, but he but I don't think he was actually diagnosed yet.

[24:12] Ben Rimalower: And um, yeah, oh Ray was Ray was wonderful in a role.

[24:18] Mary Gordon Murray: I mean, so different, you know, just night and day, like it's Chip and it's Ray Gill, you know.

[24:22] Ben Rimalower: So what what was he like into because you know, Chip has such a distinctive kind of like that wiry sort of court gesture kind of uh persona?

[24:32] Mary Gordon Murray: Like, how did Ray um like was I I assume he was not more aggressive when he was telling you like to go back to the cottage or whatever?

[24:42] Ben Rimalower: Like, what was his style?

[24:43] Mary Gordon Murray: No, he was just but you know in both embedded in it is the idea that really you know he says my wife took care of everything I mean that's the line so no matter where you go with it it's a guy who knows ultimately that he's like trying to be bossy and he kind of can't so either you know what I mean so it's so out of Ray it was but Ray was also a great big guy yeah so when he was bossy it was different out of chip little chip had to work you know what I mean chip was and Ray just had to be the six foot guy you know a good hundred two hundred I don't know what he weight yeah go home I mean okay you know but Ray was just a sweet softy of a human being a lovely lovely person and you know Chip's amazing and what was Ray's singing like because Chip also has a very distinctive singing voice.

[25:28] Mary Gordon Murray: Yeah Ray sang it beautifully still charactery but just uh uh you know he sang it very very very very well he was he was absolutely wonderful it's a great they were I mean that was my you know that's the company that I rehearsed with and yeah kind of a different production they changed some of the sets um and uh it was uh and Cleo you know do what was Clio like or adored her adored her just the salt of the earth such a different really just earthy earthy um and just a love of a human it was a great company it was a great company yeah when you're on the road man ooh it doesn't take much for it to get funky and it was not fun it was delicious well and and Charlotte Ray started the tour with you as Jackson yes she did she was hilarious she was a trip and a half.

[26:18] Ben Rimalower: And uh, but she was she was great.

[26:20] Mary Gordon Murray: I mean, she was a huge TV star at that moment when you guys went out.

[26:25] Ben Rimalower: Was that?

[26:25] Mary Gordon Murray: I mean, were did were the audiences like coming to see, you know, um, what was her name?

[26:31] Ben Rimalower: Mrs.

[26:31] Mary Gordon Murray: Uh, whatever from Facts of Life.

[26:33] Ben Rimalower: I don't know, you know, I don't recall that.

[26:33] Mary Gordon Murray: I don't recall that being a thing.

[26:39] Ben Rimalower: And I I don't maybe they advertised it.

[26:41] Mary Gordon Murray: We might have been oblivious to that.

[26:43] Ben Rimalower: Uh it's possible, you know, she's a character, she was a character actress.

[26:48] Mary Gordon Murray: So in general, people wouldn't even know the name.

[26:51] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, you know what I mean?

[26:53] Mary Gordon Murray: When you do that kind of thing, I mean, I was on a soap, you know, blah, blah, blah.

[26:57] Ben Rimalower: No, nobody's not.

[26:57] Mary Gordon Murray: No, but she was, I mean, that was like a she was a big deal.

[26:59] Ben Rimalower: No, that was a big hit show.

[27:01] Mary Gordon Murray: I mean, I remember my actually the first I ever heard of Into the Woods was I was um I was in seventh grade in 1988, 89 and in the San Fernando Valley, and in our music room, there was a poster for your production on the road, and it said uh Cleo Lane and Charlotte Ray, and it said, like, you know, somebody's been messing with your fairy tale fiddling with your fairy tales or something.

[27:25] Ben Rimalower: And it was like, what is this show?

[27:28] Mary Gordon Murray: Um, that Charlotte Ray is in, you know, that was all, and then you know, maybe the next year it was on TV, and then I got to know the musical, but she was like a big star to the well, you know, it was a show that kids watched, but right, right, right, right, right.

[27:41] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[27:42] Mary Gordon Murray: But uh, but that that's interesting.

[27:44] Ben Rimalower: Um, and and had you left Broadway directly to go right on to the tour.

[27:48] Mary Gordon Murray: Right, directly.

[27:49] Mary Gordon Murray: As a matter of fact, I was doing I was doing the Broadway show while I was rehearsing the tour.

[27:56] Ben Rimalower: Oh, because you rehearsed in New York.

[27:58] Mary Gordon Murray: Yeah, and and even though it was James, he was fiddling.

[28:01] Ben Rimalower: He was fiddling with the two, you know, he would just say, uh it didn't matter.

[28:04] Mary Gordon Murray: What difference doesn't make?

[28:04] Ben Rimalower: You could, you know, it's the same, everything.

[28:06] Mary Gordon Murray: But he's fiddling, so I'm still doing the Broadway show, and he's just saying, Oh no, you enter stage left.

[28:11] Ben Rimalower: Oh no, no, no, this time enter stage right.

[28:13] Mary Gordon Murray: Oh god.

[28:13] Ben Rimalower: And I'm the and a fine, yes, that's exactly what happened.

[28:16] Mary Gordon Murray: I'm on stage going, I don't know where I am.

[28:18] Ben Rimalower: I will get through from the wrong place.

[28:20] Mary Gordon Murray: And I finally went in and said, I'm losing I'm losing my mind.

[28:23] Ben Rimalower: I'm coming in the wrong places.

[28:24] Mary Gordon Murray: I don't know where I am.

[28:25] Ben Rimalower: It's just tweaked enough that I'm losing it.

[28:28] Mary Gordon Murray: And they let me out a week early.

[28:29] Ben Rimalower: They didn't want to.

[28:33] Mary Gordon Murray: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[28:35] Ben Rimalower: Well, you're you're a brave soul for that.

[28:37] Mary Gordon Murray: Um and uh I mean it seems like um it must be compared to all the musicals you've done.

[28:47] Ben Rimalower: Is there any show that rivals Into the Woods for how many other productions uh you know your students have done?

[28:55] Mary Gordon Murray: And you know, it seems like it must just be so much more in the ether than than anything else.

[29:00] Ben Rimalower: Pretty much, pretty much very funny.

[29:02] Mary Gordon Murray: I'm teaching a class, um, a third semester scenes and scenes and songs, and somebody was talking about they said, Oh yeah, I want to do Into the Woods and I want to do blah blah blah.

[29:11] Ben Rimalower: And like it almost seems surreal when I turn to go, oh yeah, I did I did they're like, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

[29:17] Mary Gordon Murray: Well, where on Broadway.

[29:22] Ben Rimalower: On Broadway, oh, what'd you play?

[29:25] Mary Gordon Murray: What?

[29:26] Ben Rimalower: Like it's and I I almost feel like I'm saying, I'm just kidding.

[29:29] Mary Gordon Murray: I didn't really like it's so iconic to them.

[29:32] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, and I almost feel silly, like uh, yeah, yeah.

[29:35] Mary Gordon Murray: I'm just sitting here teaching the MT3, you know.

[29:37] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[29:38] Mary Gordon Murray: Um, it's it is grown and grown, and and it's very much dream rolls for so many of my students.

[29:45] Ben Rimalower: The baker's wife is a big one, you know, more than any.

[29:49] Mary Gordon Murray: Yeah, of course.

[29:50] Ben Rimalower: Um and did you do any subsequent productions?

[29:53] Mary Gordon Murray: I mean, you said you turned out.

[29:55] Mary Gordon Murray: I did.

[29:55] Mary Gordon Murray: I the very first time I it would have not been long, I think there were a couple.

[30:00] Mary Gordon Murray: Um I just came off the road.

[30:02] Mary Gordon Murray: And it was just, and it had been a year and a half of doing it, and it was with James all the way through, and that company, and I I, you know, it took me a while to find my way.

[30:12] Mary Gordon Murray: And I think I thought, why?

[30:14] Mary Gordon Murray: I'm just gonna reinvent the wheel and I may fail, you know, uh, without that.

[30:19] Mary Gordon Murray: I really knew how much it was embedded in that production.

[30:22] Ben Rimalower: And it was true, it was true.

[30:24] Mary Gordon Murray: That role was Joanna and James, and they created that as a whole cloth.

[30:28] Mary Gordon Murray: It's like I don't know why I feel like this is maybe a weird comparison, but if you try to like replace somebody in the office where all of this stuff was so created organically.

[30:37] Ben Rimalower: Thank you.

[30:38] Mary Gordon Murray: Yeah, yeah.

[30:39] Ben Rimalower: And and now what?

[30:40] Mary Gordon Murray: What who's playing that role?

[30:41] Ben Rimalower: That's crazy.

[30:42] Mary Gordon Murray: So I mean, at least I had the benefit of being with the original class to pass at the office.

[30:46] Mary Gordon Murray: So I understood the vibe of it, at least, you know, could absorb some of that, although it took me a while.

[30:52] Ben Rimalower: But um, so then in other companies, it was like a different perspective and a different which is great and can be a lot of fun for that role.

[31:01] Mary Gordon Murray: It was it was fine.

[31:03] Mary Gordon Murray: I did uh I did it up at Sacramento, I did it down in Texas, I did it with a terrific director and a lovely company, but on a certain level, I hate to say it, the baker's wife lived in that original thing that they created.

[31:18] Ben Rimalower: It was and is it just that synergy like with the cast of the office, or is there something more concrete that you think other productions sometimes miss?

[31:27] Mary Gordon Murray: Um I don't know.

[31:30] Mary Gordon Murray: I'm not smart enough to know that.

[31:32] Mary Gordon Murray: I I don't know.

[31:33] Mary Gordon Murray: I'm not a creator, I'm not a creator, you know.

[31:36] Ben Rimalower: Do you not direct?

[31:37] Mary Gordon Murray: I do, I do direct.

[31:38] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, you seem like you would be directing.

[31:40] Mary Gordon Murray: Thank you.

[31:41] Mary Gordon Murray: Um, I just yeah, I have them, but creating new material is a different thing.

[31:45] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[31:46] Mary Gordon Murray: You know, I duplicate, I do things that have already been produced.

[31:48] Ben Rimalower: I think that's a whole other wheelhouse of Have you directed Into the Woods?

[31:52] Mary Gordon Murray: No.

[31:53] Ben Rimalower: Oh, no, no.

[31:54] Mary Gordon Murray: No.

[31:54] Mary Gordon Murray: But I am directing a show that I did on Broadway called Hands on a Hard Body.

[31:57] Ben Rimalower: I'm gonna be.

[31:57] Mary Gordon Murray: Oh, I saw you in that.

[31:58] Ben Rimalower: I love that.

[32:00] Mary Gordon Murray: The wacky wacky show.

[32:02] Ben Rimalower: It's fun.

[32:03] Mary Gordon Murray: A lovely show.

[32:03] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, it's a really beautiful piece.

[32:03] Mary Gordon Murray: Beautiful piece.

[32:06] Ben Rimalower: Um I want when someday when you do direct Into the Woods, I really want to see your production.

[32:12] Mary Gordon Murray: Oh my god.

[32:14] Ben Rimalower: But it was all of it.

[32:15] Mary Gordon Murray: I hate to say it.

[32:16] Mary Gordon Murray: It's it's that sounds so terrible because it and it's like I loved, I thought the movie was fabulous.

[32:21] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[32:21] Mary Gordon Murray: I just absolutely love the and I loved Emily Blunt.

[32:24] Ben Rimalower: I thought she was insane spectacular.

[32:26] Mary Gordon Murray: Spectacular.

[32:27] Ben Rimalower: But you can't do it's sort of like um doing Sweeney the movie.

[32:32] Mary Gordon Murray: You know, how do you do Mrs.

[32:34] Ben Rimalower: Lovett?

[32:35] Mary Gordon Murray: Like it's so um, it's just part of that production that Angela created.

[32:41] Ben Rimalower: It's so you know, part of that, I think.

[32:43] Mary Gordon Murray: Other people have been brilliant doing Lava, so maybe that's a bad analogy, but um, yeah, I it's a really interesting part.

[32:50] Mary Gordon Murray: And um it really, really is, and I I just think it's a it's part of when I keep repeating myself, but when it's the product of the director creating and and directing his own work and then being so open to collaboration with yeah, especially with Joanna, who I yeah, just it was brilliant.

[33:08] Ben Rimalower: And he let her be, you know, they did that together.

[33:11] Mary Gordon Murray: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[33:13] Ben Rimalower: Wish I could have seen it.

[33:15] Mary Gordon Murray: Listen, I wish I'd gotten to see you do it too.

[33:17] Ben Rimalower: Um now I'm gonna be on the lookout for bootlegs.

[33:21] Mary Gordon Murray: I think there are some.

[33:22] Ben Rimalower: I don't know.

[33:22] Mary Gordon Murray: There must be.

[33:23] Ben Rimalower: I mean it's such a collector's uh show Into the Woods.

[33:27] Mary Gordon Murray: Somebody had to have done it.

[33:28] Ben Rimalower: Some Nezzanine somewhere.

[33:30] Mary Gordon Murray: Yeah.

[33:31] Ben Rimalower: This has been so great to talk to you.

[33:33] Mary Gordon Murray: I really appreciate it.

[33:34] Ben Rimalower: You too.

[33:34] Mary Gordon Murray: What fun.

[33:40] Ben Rimalower: Thank you for listening to Giants in the Sky, how Sondheim and Lapine went Into the Woods on the Broadway Podcast Network.

[33:47] Ben Rimalower: Look out for episode 25 with Burke Moses, the prince in the final workshop.