This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Ben Rimalower: Broadway Podcast Network presents Giants in the Sky: How Sondheim's and Lapine Went Into the Woods with me, Ben Rimalower.

[0:08] Ben Rimalower: Today's guest, John Bell, Sondheim's's intern at the Old Globe.

[0:12] Ben Rimalower: Once upon a time.

[0:19] John Bell: I was Stephen Sondheim's intern on the Old Globe production of Into the Woods.

[0:24] John Bell: I am the author of Elaine Stritch, The End of Pretend, co-author of Score, Music Theory for Musical Theater, and have contributed to other books and periodicals, including The Sondheim Review.

[0:36] John Bell: A librettist and composer, my musicals River Run Deep and Making Home have been produced regionally.

[0:42] John Bell: And I am a professor of performing arts at DeSales University.

[1:15] Ben Rimalower: And that he said that you had been a student and been working with Sondheim's on the Old Globe, Into the Woods.

[1:30] Ben Rimalower: And of course, I was a fan of your book, The End of Pretend, about your years with Elaine Stritch.

[1:36] John Bell: Thank you.

[1:37] Ben Rimalower: So it was really such a treat for me to get to talk to you at all, and this especially because, of course, I had no idea about your involvement in this early incarnation of Into the Woods.

[1:50] Ben Rimalower: So I'd love to just pick your brain about it.

[1:52] John Bell: Well, you know, involvement in the early incarnation probably makes it sound grander than it was. I had just gone out to San Diego to join the MFA musical theater program out there at San Diego State, and realized that one of the requirements of the program was that you had to have a professional internship.

[2:12] John Bell: And lo and behold, I didn't know this because I had already established a relationship with Sondheim's a few years earlier, and he knew I was going out to California to start this degree.

[2:23] John Bell: And lo and behold, literally the day that I arrived in San Diego, the San Diego newspaper announced that Sondheim's and Lapine and their new Broadway-bound musical was coming to the Old Globe.

[2:36] John Bell: And so I'm like, Eureka, this is it.

[2:38] John Bell: So I arranged to have a production assistantship with Sondheim's at the Old Globe and was the envy of all my incoming MFA friends.

[2:47] John Bell: So I was a student in the room, an observer, a gopher, you know, the lowest man on the totem pole, but it was such a great learning experience for me to see how a show was put together.

[2:59] John Bell: So I mean, and not just any show.

[3:02] John Bell: And I have found in my conversations with various people involved in Into the Woods that, of course, the people who were younger at the time, for various reasons, often remember a lot of the minutiae that I'm looking for better, partly because they're younger now.

[3:23] John Bell: So that just helps with memory, and also these formative experiences when it's all new really imprint on our brains.

[3:37] John Bell: So I'm hoping you can just give me sort of the play-by-play.

[3:41] Ben Rimalower: I mean, you find out that you need an internship.

[3:45] Ben Rimalower: How did you go about approaching—did you go directly to Sondheim's? What had you already been like a fan who'd written with him?

[3:54] John Bell: Yeah, I'd written back and forth with him, and he had invited me to New York, and I got to meet him at his house, and then got to see a production of the original performance of Sunday in the Park with George with him.

[4:06] John Bell: And so we sort of struck up an acquaintanceship, I would call it. I wouldn't call it friendship, but an acquaintanceship.

[4:12] John Bell: And yeah, so when it was time for the internship and I realized he was coming out there, I just called him and I said, I need an internship and I just want to do it with you.

[4:21] John Bell: And his initial response was that the work he does is so private and internal as a composer that he doesn't really need a production assistant, and he typically doesn't have production assistants.

[4:34] John Bell: But I think he understood that it was something I needed as a requirement for my program.

[4:41] John Bell: So he suggested that I contact the Old Globe with his permission to say that I've spoken to Sondheim's.

[4:49] John Bell: I have this relationship with him.

[4:52] John Bell: And so I contacted the Old Globe, and the Old Globe said, okay, well, you’ve got Sondheim's's blessing.

[4:58] John Bell: So it really developed as a two-pronged internship.

[5:00] John Bell: One was I was working with the Old Globe's education department.

[5:00] John Bell: They were going to send a small company of non-cast actors from the show out into the schools as an educational component of this upcoming Broadway premiere musical.

[5:15] John Bell: So the idea was that I would work with that company, and in return, of course, I'd have access to rehearsals so that when I worked with that company, I could make sure that what they were putting together would funnel off of what was actually developing in the show.

[5:31] John Bell: And so once the Old Globe was okay with that, then Sondheim's was like, yeah, you're into rehearsals, come on in and you can sort of sweep coffee for me or take music down to Tildeed in the basement so Matilda Pincus can do all the copying.

[5:45] John Bell: So I just sort of slid into it with two prongs, if you know what I mean.

[5:49] Ben Rimalower: Okay, first of all, you're blowing my mind. There was a company of non-cast actors who were going to schools performing material from Into the Woods.

[5:59] John Bell: Yes, and it was a company of four, two men and two women, and they were some of the local San Diego actors that I think had been engaged with the Globe.

[6:08] John Bell: I don't know if they were equity or not.

[6:11] John Bell: And they did this for all the shows at the Old Globe.

[6:14] John Bell: They created sort of an education guide and they offered the schools to bring this company of four in just to give them samplings or a taste of what their production would be in the hopes that they'd bring buses of kids to see the shows.

[6:29] John Bell: And so years ahead of Into the Woods Junior or any of the stuff that we have now.

[6:34] Ben Rimalower: So were they—was it like a 20-minute version, a 40-minute version?

[6:39] John Bell: It was like one of something like that. I couldn't tell you exactly now.

[6:42] John Bell: And you know, we were able to do, and this was where my attendance at rehearsals was helpful because we were allowed to do small snippets of a few of the songs with some structured narration just to sort of give the school kids a sense of and their teachers what they'd be getting.

[6:59] John Bell: So that was the fun part, which is getting my hands on the music, being able to come in and sort of straddle both of those performance readiness spheres.

[7:10] Ben Rimalower: Amazing.

[7:10] Ben Rimalower: Okay, and so just to make you back up one more time, and because I'm of course dying to go forward too, but when you did—I understand correctly that you went to see Sunday in the Park with George, just you and Sondheim's, he just took you to a performance?

[7:25] John Bell: Well, that story, you know, I tell the story to my students now a lot.

[7:29] John Bell: When I was in college, I did a production of Side by Side by Sondheim's, and it was my first introduction to his work, and I just was blown away by it.

[7:37] John Bell: So when the production was over, I wrote him a typical fanboy letter.

[7:41] John Bell: And you know, the letter was I love you, I love your work, I think you're writing just for me, you know, all the stuff that all of us Sondheim's heads say about him, right?

[7:48] John Bell: And he sent me back a nice letter saying that he was moved by my remarks, and that if I was ever coming to New York, here's my phone number.

[7:57] John Bell: So of course I called his phone number and arranged a trip to New York.

[8:01] John Bell: I was about 18. I had just entered college.

[8:04] John Bell: I'd never been outside of Central Ohio, which is where I grew up.

[8:07] John Bell: I'd certainly never been to New York.

[8:09] John Bell: And so I went with my mother that summer in between my freshman and sophomore year, and we met him at his house, and he was very gracious.

[8:18] John Bell: And then unbeknownst to us, he had alluded that he would arrange tickets to Sunday in the Park with George, because Sunday in the Park with George had just opened.

[8:28] John Bell: And unbeknownst to us, after our meeting with him at his house pre-curtain, he accompanied us to Sunday in the Park with George.

[8:38] John Bell: And so we had this wonderful, glorious sort of opportunity to see that show with him.

[8:44] John Bell: And it was a night that just changed my life.

[8:47] Ben Rimalower: And was that still the original cast?

[8:49] John Bell: It was Mandy and Bernadette, the whole bit.

[8:51] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, amazing.

[8:52] Ben Rimalower: And so now, had at that point, did you still only know his work via Side by Side?

[8:58] John Bell: So it was all new material to you?

[9:01] John Bell: I'm a pretty strong researcher.

[9:03] John Bell: And I immediately, once I made the connection with him, I started researching everything, listening to everything.

[9:08] Ben Rimalower: Oh, great.

[9:09] John Bell: Okay.

[9:10] John Bell: Yeah.

[9:11] Ben Rimalower: Wonderful.

[9:12] Ben Rimalower: And I mean, I don't know, like, I think it might be different if we went with Sondheim's, but I don't think my mom would have necessarily fully appreciated Sunday in the Park with George.

[9:23] Ben Rimalower: Like, what was that experience like for you?

[9:26] John Bell: Oh, well, all I can say is, you know, the act one closer with the painting being recreated.

[9:33] John Bell: Yeah.

[9:33] John Bell: He just picked us all three of us off the floor, including Sondheim's, who was crying, you know, as he was watching it.

[9:38] John Bell: He'd seen it a million times, of course.

[9:40] John Bell: Wow.

[9:41] John Bell: But it was just really transcendent and spiritual and artistically alive in ways that you just—I certainly had an experience as a young kid at that time, kind of in the theater, you know.

[9:54] Ben Rimalower: Amazing.

[9:54] Ben Rimalower: And I mean, did he take you backstage? Did you meet anyone in the cast? Anything like that?

[10:00] John Bell: Um, we did.

[10:01] John Bell: We had an opportunity to meet the cast members, and you know, it was kind of like, you know, we're following him around, and he's graciously introducing us.

[10:12] John Bell: He's doing the lovely host thing, and people were kind, but they were like, Who are these two people?

[10:17] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[10:18] John Bell: But they were kind to us because Sondheim's was introducing us.

[10:22] John Bell: So he made it a magical night.

[10:25] Ben Rimalower: And so with that experience behind you, did you have a little bit more comfort than you might have going into your first—were you there for the very first rehearsal for the—did you come to New York for the Old Globe rehearsals in New York?

[10:41] John Bell: No, I didn't.

[10:42] John Bell: I didn't even really know about Into the Woods.

[10:44] John Bell: All the research I was doing, I wasn't even aware that a new musical was in the works.

[10:49] John Bell: It wasn't truly till I got off the plane the first day.

[10:53] John Bell: What do you do when you come to a new city? You pick up the local newspaper.

[10:54] John Bell: I picked up the local newspaper, and there was the announcement that Sondheim's was coming with the new musical.

[11:00] John Bell: And you can imagine what that meant in my mind.

[11:04] John Bell: If I know him, if I can get in on this, I get to watch one of these shows that I love of his from the beginning.

[11:11] John Bell: I mean, it just blew me away.

[11:13] Ben Rimalower: And at that point, were you wanting to be a director or what was your career aspiration at that point?

[11:21] John Bell: I think like everybody at that age, I saw myself as a performer.

[11:25] John Bell: I was training, continuing to train in my skill set and would go on to do some performing, but because I was deeply affected by some keen teachers along my way, I also knew that I wanted to teach, which is why I was pursuing the MFA, and anticipated that that would lead to directing.

[11:44] John Bell: I also had an undergraduate degree in music, and so I was also very interested in being a music director and a director as well.

[11:51] Ben Rimalower: So those are all things that I—Renaissance man.

[11:53] John Bell: Yeah, I keep interrupting you, so now I'm losing the thread.

[11:56] John Bell: So you came to New York before you finished the MFA program. Am I mixing things up?

[12:02] John Bell: I came to New York before I even started the MFA program.

[12:07] Ben Rimalower: When you saw Sunday in the Park.

[12:09] John Bell: Yes.

[12:09] John Bell: But when you—but so you were still in San Diego when you did the Into the Woods internship?

[12:17] John Bell: Yes, absolutely.

[12:18] John Bell: The whole internship was with the Old Globe production in San Diego.

[12:22] John Bell: But because they had—because this is what I mean.

[12:23] John Bell: They rehearsed, I believe, in New York before they came out.

[12:26] John Bell: They did.

[12:27] John Bell: And that all happened before I even knew about it.

[12:31] John Bell: And the first I heard of it was this production was coming out to San Diego.

[12:38] John Bell: That's when I first heard about it.

[12:39] Ben Rimalower: And then, okay, so tell me about the beginning of your work with that production.

[12:47] John Bell: Well, I met the education company people and what they were hoping to achieve, and then I started going to rehearsals.

[12:55] John Bell: And you know, I just would catch whatever rehearsal I could around my new class schedule at the university.

[13:01] John Bell: So, you know, it was just catch as catch can.

[13:04] John Bell: But the good news was is that it was a fairly tightly held rehearsal process.

[13:08] John Bell: I mean, nobody could just walk in.

[13:10] John Bell: But I had been given permission, and after two or three appearances, people began to know that he's one of the approved.

[13:16] John Bell: And so I would just pop into rehearsal, see what was going on, report back to the education process, and start to marry those two things.

[13:25] John Bell: Once the education project started to take shape, and that happened fairly quickly. Yeah, then I pretty much was done with that, and I just continued to go to rehearsals and watch the show evolve and go into performances and previews and changes of this song being cut or this character being cut, all that stuff. And that's the part that was most fascinating to me. So I'd love to know everything you thought about that, remember about that, learn from that. I mean, anything you can share. Well, you know, I it was just fascinating watching, you know, like when I was out there, the three pigs were in the show with Little Red Riding, you know, and the huffing and the puffing and all that stuff. And it was funny, sort of watching, you know, I'm in one rehearsal.

I'm seeing a scene with Little Red Riding and the Three Pigs, and then I come in the next two days later, and that scene's completely gone. And you know, so I'm processing, okay, you know, I wonder why that went. Is it and this was like it was like three other actors in the cast, like I think Joy Franz had said that she played a pig and Merle Reese played a pig. Yeah. And were they in like pig full pig costumes? They were in at my rehearsal, I'm sorry. Yeah, it was rehearsal, but no, it was rehearsal. So, but I remember them looking pig-like. So I'm not sure if they had some sort of a headpiece, yeah, rehearsal doofer or whatever. And did they sing the pigs? Not that I recall. I don't recall that they had any singing.

Um so they were there, then they were gone, and then a couple days later they were back in, you know. So just trying to be in the mindset of Sondheim's and Lapine, and why was the decision made or why wasn't it made? So that type of stuff was fascinating throughout. I remember sorry, do you remember other things like that that we would not know about now that had been pieces of the show? I remember um I remember that the witch's big number in act two was Boom Crunch, and before it became Last Midnight. Yeah. And I remember that I had gotten the sheet music for that for the education company, and I was really fascinated with that Boom Crunch number because I thought it was just a fascinating piece of writing, and um and and to watch um Ellen Foley, who was the witch out there, sort of do that number, and it was sort of so part of her aesthetic, her visual aesthetic, her emotional aesthetic.

And then when Last Midnight sort of morphed out of that, which I don't think happened in San Diego, I think that happened once Bernadette got involved and they sort of reshaped it later. But just sort of comparing those two things, the original for the from the San Diego to what it became later, you know, was a study in lyric writing and character development and creating the right tone and diction of a character because that the character of the witch changed significantly. Um and I can share a couple of other anecdotes. I remember one day, one of my assignments was to go to the hotel where Sondheim's was staying and to pick him up and bring him to rehearsal. I didn't do that often, but for some reason I was dispatched this time.

And I got to the hotel and as planned and knocked on the door, and he came to the door and he opened it, and he had this big sort of Cheshire cat grin on his face. And I said, I said, What's going on? You know, like I could just tell that he had something was going on. And he said, Come in, I want you to hear this. And he proceeded to play me the, and I think I may have been the first person beside Sondheim's to hear this. He played me the reprise of Agony. And then it was so fascinating to me. Not only was I exposed to this reprise, which was such a brilliant parallel to the original from Act One, as these, you know, these men have changed from having got the girl to now having a roving eye. I mean, it was just such a brilliant piece of writing.

But what was fascinating is Sondheim's sits at his piano in the hotel room and he plays this for me. And the first, and if you've ever heard any demo tapes of Sondheim's, he's not a good singer. So it's really hard to exactly know what's happening with the pictures and the melody, but because I knew the original, I kind of knew where it was. Yeah. But he was laughing so hard while he was singing it to me. But he kept dropping a lot of the lyrics. So I couldn't quite get all the punchlines. And when he was done, he looked at me like that sort of innocent little kid who's just done something wonderful. And he goes, What do you think? And I said, Well, I think it's wonderful, but I really would like to hear it again because you love writing so much.

So he played it again and he put on his sort of actor face and he did it straight without laughing at himself. And of course, that's when I got the full power of it. And I thought, my gosh, my gosh, this is so brilliant. But you know, my takeaway from that Ben is he still was able to tickle himself. He still knew in the privacy of the writing what was really funny, what was really a brilliant add-on to what he had written earlier and took the humor one step further. And I to this day I remain, you know, so taken with how much he had tickled himself in his own work. Because when you see him in rehearsal and it's being handed over to the cast and they're working it up, you don't often see that initial little pleasure.

Because he's got a in my experience with him, he had a different mask on in those settings. So that's one memory that I can share with you. Uh and that's so interesting because you talked about um his initial reaction to the idea of having a production assistant and being that writing is this uh private thing, and yet it does seem like he invited you into that space, and you were able to share that experience with him in that moment. Yeah, and I feel I feel like that was a rare thing, you know. I don't take that lightly. I when I share that story, I share that in the wonder of it. Um just the the real blessing of having had that opportunity. And a similar experience was uh later in this process, and I think it the show hadn't opened yet.

It I think it was still in rehearsal. The night that the song No More, the ballad between the Baker and the Mysterious Man came into the show. And I had heard a couple days before there was a buzz in rehearsal. I never talked directly to Sondheim's about this type of thing, but I would heard that a new song was being written for the two characters, and um, that there was a buzz building that it was pretty impactful. And the day that it was going in, or for that evening's rehearsal, um, when I got to the theater that day, the buzz was alive. It was like, oh my gosh, wait till you hear it. People had been hearing it in the rehearsal hall. And it was going in that night. And um, what I recall was is that to my to my recollection, Sondheim's and I were the only two out in the house when they got to that point in the show when this song was being heard.

Now, I'm sure that's not true. I'm sure Lapine and his assistant and other people were out there too, but that's this is how I recall it. That Sondheim's was sitting in the center orchestra, probably about 10 rows back from the stage, and that he was slumped down in his theater chair with his feet over the back of the chair in front of him. So he was really cradled. And he and he sort of slumped down as the scene and as the song was coming, right? And you know, it was with piano only, and uh Chip Zien and Tom Aldridge were doing it. And you know, I'm thinking to myself, this is that moment. This is that moment when you are a composer lyricist, you've written something, and you have it's not like in the hotel room sharing it with a production assistant.

It's like here it is. Here it is in the flow of this story for whatever impact it's going to have. And here's the moment where you find out how people respond to it. How do the actor what do the actors do with it? What's the energy in the room? How does it feed the story or not? You know, is it success? Is it failure? All that stuff. And so, and I was even further back from Sondheim's, and I wasn't in center orchestra, I was over to the left orchestra. And so I was about 10 rows back. So from that angle, I could sort of see not him in full profile, but enough of a profile to really try to read what was going on. And for me as a young kid, I was just like, wow, this first exposure in the story itself, you know, what is this like?

And and I I to this day I say to myself, he wound himself. He went into the womb the way he slouched down and put his feet up over the chair in front of him. He was almost in the fetal position at this exposure. That's my interpretation, of course. But he closed himself off. I mean, at times I don't even think he was looking at the stage. I think he was just listening to the music and what the actors were doing with it. And of course, you know, I was mesmerized both by what I was hearing and seeing, but also keeping half my eye on him the whole time. And you could hear the stillness in the theater, and everybody, you could just tell the impact was it probably had to be exactly what he wanted.

And you know, at the end, um, I just looked over. It was rehearsal, so there was no applause or anything, you know. Yeah, so I just looked over and I just saw him wipe just wipe a tear away. And I just thought to myself, this is the rarest of rare moments that I am experiencing, and I'm just a production assistant kid. And I'm telling you, these experiences have stayed with me so deeply.

[23:33] Ben Rimalower: Well, that's certainly uh as good as it gets, it sounds like. I mean, in this art form, that's really the pinnacle. I mean, um were the were the did you see a similar kind of um maybe not the exact full uh you know, cradled moment, but did you did you sense that kind of uh experience going on for Sondheim's when other new material came in? Like I know a lot of people talked about when no one is alone was introduced to the show. Would that have been that kind of a thing as well?

[24:08] John Bell: Um it probably was and I'm not even sure I may have been there for that first coming in because I but my my schedule at the university, I couldn't be at everything. So I'm not sure I even experienced that. But in my mind, nothing sort of matched that that to me was so quintessential. I I mean I I you know, so um just also the content. I mean, I guess this goes for so much of the material in this show. It's it feels so personal. Um and um uh and speaking of that number specifically, uh you said Tom Aldridge, but I think maybe you meant to say George Coe in the San Diego production.

[24:46] Ben Rimalower: Of course I did, you're absolutely right. Thank you.

[24:49] John Bell: And because I'm curious uh how he might have been in that role compared to the Tom Aldridge performance that you know is so familiar to people from the uh you know, American Playhouse broadcast and you know, as well as the cast recording. Um what was his mysterious man a similar mysterious man to Tom Aldridge's mysterious?

[25:14] John Bell: Well, that role is that role is written so specifically with all these sort of little fragments of thought and philosophy that come out. So I think any actor, you you in some way you just have that the type of material is gonna guide it, but uh there were differences. I thought that Tom Aldridge, when I saw him in New York, he was much more um he was much more mentally acute and crisp uh with with it. And I thought that George Coe was a little softer and a little more emotionally vulnerable, trying to sort of the things coming out of his mouth were not so much um proclamations as they were invitations to see if we can reconnect. Can you figure out who I am? Uh what is this about? And so there was a there was a a softness to that. Wow.

[26:04] John Bell: Yeah. Um you also uh and think thinking of that song, I understand that in the old globe production, the mysterious man had more to sing uh with more vocal lines um and in a parts that are you know not in the score anymore, uh, in no more something about the garden, like a a little verse. Is that did what did that um bring or or what was lost with the cutting of that? Do you do you remember?

[26:33] John Bell: Um, you know, that's a tough one for me. I do remember that the verse he had a little bit more in there and that it did eventually get trimmed down.

[26:41] John Bell: Uh, you know, one of my biggest takeaways from the experience was when things were cut or trimmed, uh, to me it was like, okay, that's gone. How does this feel without it? Did we lose anything? And or is it more powerful because it's more concise? And in every single case, it was the concision that I'm like, I get it, I get it. And I remember having one conversation with Sondheim's about sort of the cutting, and he the way he phrased it was, you know, you write it, you write everything you think you want to put into that song, everything you can think of for the character in the moment and the situation. You put it out there, and then you're in the glorious position of if you've got too much, you just have to cut it down.

And in the cutting process, you're going to make it sharper, clearer, and cleaner. And, you know, that's the lesson I learned. I have used that so much in my own work, is that I'm in the glorious position of having too much stuff. Great. And that's what it was like. You know, I remember working on a show years ago where there was kind of like a showstopper that I was the director, and I really thought that it had nothing to add uh to the story, and that it really um uh got the audience too invested in a character that they shouldn't have been spending that much time invested in. And the producer and even the writers disagreed with me because I and I still think they were wrong because they just fell in love with the fact that this performer was dazzling and the audience just ate it up.

Um I'm I wonder if there were things uh that got cut that you know maybe were harder to lose because of that kind of value they had, or or that maybe that stayed because even though the sort of relentless, you know, the ruthless uh uh conciseness would have called for their cutting. I just wonder if there were any things that sort of you know either did or didn't get cut, but had that kind of uh, you know uh questionable value in the show.

[28:49] John Bell: You know, it's such an interesting question, and I'm struggling with it because the way for me to contextualize the uh whether or not I felt that or not is what really isn't possible until the Broadway cast recording came out. Yeah. Get to know that score by heart. Certainly when it was in San Diego, I got familiar with it, and I had my hands on a few pieces of music, but not most of it. Yeah, and it was changing so much that it didn't template itself, it didn't imprint itself enough for me to sort of make some of those judgment calls. Certainly, there was no really wonderful showstopping or emotional piece that was cut that you felt like, whoa, where did that go? Yeah, there was nothing like that.

Um, it was all about small little edits, sure, or changes of lyrics or the boom crutch boom crunch becoming last midnight. That was a significant let's get into that because um, you know, of course, I having not uh been a production assistant on the old global production, sad for me, uh, first got to know Into the Woods through the you know, final or you know, Broadway opening version as broadcast and on the album, and um and now doing all this research, I have gotten to know last uh Boom Crunch somewhat well. But last midnight is a song that I've known for you know 30 years or whatever, and uh you know, 35 years, and and have long loved. And um, so to me it seems so clear that that was just uh an out and out improvement.

But uh many people, uh including Paul Ford have it that you know were involved in the show in in the trenches, speak so um lovingly of the Boom Crunch. And um, I'm curious what your opinion on that replacement was.

[30:41] John Bell: Well, uh I think the replacement was right as the characterization evolved and the casting changed. But boom, I I'm with Paul. Boom crunch was so Ellen Foley. She played that role with such a I don't want to say a rocker edge, but she had that quality about her, and that's sort of how her career uh uh started in any way, and she the visual of that character in that production with the hair that was spiky and the long sort of leather boots uh at one point. I mean, there was a real almost sort of SM dominatrix hint toward the visual and the energy of the role. It was was about the witch protecting this child Rapunzel at all costs, and damn the world, the if anything's gonna get in her way. I mean, it just had an edge to it, right?

And so Boom Crunch, which you know, there's a little bit of that in Last Midnight, but Boom Crunch is all of it. It's the full release of that ferociousness of you know this the absurdity of the world and the the idiocy of the choices and decisions, the good versus the bad, and you know, all that stuff that eventually worked its way into last midnight. But it was so right for the way she was playing that role. Now, you know, for whatever reason, that once it left San Diego, they moved the role in a different direction. Um, but I thought it was some great writing. I'm with Paul. Yeah, and so um she did not have uh the witch did other than Boom Crunch and the rap, didn't really have any other big solo kind of musical material at the old globe, is that right?

[32:30] John Bell: That's right. To well, I'm trying to think of Stay With Me was in there. I think Stay With Me was in. Or if the song wasn't in, then a scene, the scene was there, and so you got a hint of both the control and what was gonna become a real force of the character, which or a prong of the character, which was the the mothering, the the nurturing, right? You got that softer, but I remember Ellen Foley having some scenes that were trying to begin the softening of that characterization. Yeah, I think they might have just been scenes without music, at least on what what I've found. Um, and um did you have a sense uh that there uh did were you around Sondheim's and Lepine a lot during the run at the Old Globe? Um and did you have a well, I guess am I understanding correctly that they continued to make changes on the show in San Diego even after it had opened.

[33:36] John Bell: Indeed. And so, and did you have a sense that this was just the beginning and that bigger changes would be happening prior to Broadway? You know, I I think I don't know that I had enough wherewithal as a young theater person to know. I assumed it was gonna try to go into New York. Uh I'm in my thinking it was gonna be this cast, this cast has been rehearsed, this cast is being developed, it was just gonna lift and that it would continue to evolve. Um that was my sense of it. But yes, during the run in San Diego, it was changing, and that was maybe the most enjoyable part of the process for me because I did get to usually Sondheim's and Le Pine would sit in the back row during those performances in front of the audience, and I would sit next to him, and you know, he usually doesn't have a an assistant, but you know, in this particular case, here I was, and he helped me get in there, so I would take a few notes for him every once in a while. They were usually musical cueing notes that he wanted Paul Gemini to have or whatever. Um, and and Le Pine's assistant would sit on the other side of him.

[34:41] John Bell: And so I would listen to some of the I would eavesdrop to some of the whispers going on back and forth between Sondheim's and Le Pine about, you know, this line or this scene or this character or this actor, if they were uh displeased with the way an actor was maybe handling a moment. Um and so I found all that kind of interesting, and sometimes from what I'd hear them say, uh two days later, a cut or a change would be made, and I'll I'll be able to connect. Oh, that was the germ of this why this change is going in. Uh the big problem out there was it was so long, and the audience was leaving at the end of act one because they thought it was over. So they had to figure out the funny story about that.

I I remember sitting next to Sondheim's during one of the performances, and after intermission, and this is when you know a lot of the audience had been leaving at the end of Act One, and they were trying to figure out what to do, and eventually, but they had the growing bean stalk at the end of Act One in that last number. So people would think, oh, something's yet to come. But that was still wasn't solving the problem. And so as the lights were going down for the start of act two, Sondheim's sort of got up in his seat and he he's looking out over the house and he's counting. And I just looked at him as he finished and said, I said, What are you doing? And he said, I'm counting empty seats. And I said, Why?

Because I'm trying to figure out if the show's any good. And I thought to myself, you're kidding me. Stephen Sondheim's is is using the barometer of how many people have come back. Have they solved the problem? Are people liking the show? And it just comes down to the patrons. The audience never lies. You got to listen to the audience. And that was a real a real eye-opening lesson for me too because I'm thinking, oh, this is the great Stephen Sondheim. He wouldn't need to do something like that as a barometer of success, but he was. And I thought it was wonderfully humble.

[36:56] John Bell: Yeah. You know? Yeah. Um, so in those conversations that you would hear them having, or that you'd be a part of, or you know, around during that time period in general. Did you really not have any sense that there were any cast changes that they might be theorizing? Uh, well, uh, there was, you know, the day I got to the theater and it was in performance, and the buzz was that Bernadette Peters was coming out to see the show that night. And I'm like, oh, well, I figured, well, she just did Sunday in the park with George. They just won a Pulitzer. They must be great friends. Uh, maybe she's on the West Coast for some reason, and she's just gonna stop in and see their new musical. But then I was talking to another rehearsal present person who was sort of on my level, and we were talking a little bit about it, and they said, Yeah, they're going to dinner tonight.

And I thought, do you know where they're going to dinner? And so this person knew the restaurant and the time. So we went to the restaurant a half hour early. And it was the type of restaurant where you know, there weren't multiple rooms, it was one sort of space. So we figured we got there a half hour early, got a table that was a pretty good table to see anything that might go on, and of course, got our menus ready so that we could hide behind our menus. And so we weren't close enough to them to over overhear anything they were saying. But I wanted to see Bernadette Peters. You know, it was just as simple as that. Yeah. You know, and so we were there, and and and they came in and and you know, they had their dinner, and I don't think they ever saw us.

And you know, when it was all done, we sort of changed our positions and we got out early and all that stuff. It was just it was just young kids being, you know, you know, starstruck, that sort of thing. But the conversation that we had was why is Bernadette here? She's a star. This show doesn't have a female star. I mean, she's not gonna take over the baker's wife because Joanna Gleason is killer. She's killer in the role. And the only other possibility was the witch. And we thought, maybe, but the witch is not the star role either. You know, it's an ensemble piece. Um, and so we debated that, and we finally just decided that we just decided that you know she was friends and she'd come out to see it.

But within about a week or so, you could hear the cast beginning to talk. There had been talk about the eventual uh process moving to New York, and that amongst them they had all figured that there was going to be a change in the role of the witch, and that they were trying to get uh Bernadette. Now, you've probably you're probably aware of this story that at the Old Globe, Rapunzel's Tower, James Lapine and Tony Strages, the set designer, wanted the tower to come from the floor and to telescope up hydraulically, as opposed to wheel on. And Jack O'Brien at the Old Globe, and he said, No, no, we can't excavate our theater. I don't have that kind of money, and you don't, this production is not gonna make that kind of money while it's out here, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[40:03] John Bell: Well, eventually the word goes, I can't remember who from the company, though. I heard it through someone in the Grapevine that once they signed Bernadette, uh, James Lapine's uh response was, I'm gonna get my telescoping tower, which is what they got in New York, you know, because if you've got a big name like that, you're gonna have a it elevates the production to a whole new fiscal level.

[40:28] John Bell: This is so interesting because of course I'm sh maybe you know that after San Diego they did a workshop in New York with Betty Buckley as the witch um with uh at least at some point the offer for Betty to then do the role on Broadway and that broke down I'm still getting so I'm still circling uh you know the exact details of the the how and the why and the when but at least at some point after San Diego the intention was for Betty Buckley to be the witch on Broadway.

[41:05] Ben Rimalower: So I'm curious, you know, God, I wish you had sat closer to them at that restaurant.

[41:09] John Bell: I mean as the conversation yeah there's really no this part is really too small. Um I all I mean I also know that you know Bernadette went did um an extremely short run in Into the Woods you know she famously was already gone by the time of the Tony Awards um that's why her replacement Phylicia Rashad is the witch in the clip from Into the Woods yeah but um but even Phylicia Rashad had there was a month of I think Betsy Jocelyn after Bernadette it's not even like Bernadette left the week before the Tonies I mean I think she left like in March.

[41:50] John Bell: So I mean it I you know maybe that was the first conversation it's not a big enough part and Bernadette's commitments to I think she was doing a movie meant that it w she couldn't really do it. And then when maybe this is me just theorizing when things fell apart with Betty for whatever reason, they said, forget it, we'll accept Bernadette even on these extremely limited terms, you know.

[42:15] John Bell: Um, and also maybe, I mean, when you talk about um I another question that has come up for me in various conversations, and maybe you can help shed light on it, is to what extent the changes in the witch were sort of dramaturgical or um the evolution partly due to Bernadette's personality, maybe partly due to Bernadette's star presence, maybe a little of both, you know, uh but you know, which which of them would have been in motion no matter who played the witch.

[42:53] John Bell: Um, you know, for example, if they if you say they were writing these more vulnerable emotional scenes between the witch and Rapunzel in San Diego, uh, you know, what even if they didn't have "Stay With Me" yet, it seems like maybe that was a direction that they were heading before Bernadette was in the cast.

[43:14] John Bell: And I believe it's been said that "Stay With Me" was written for Betty in that um workshop process, uh, which is certainly feasible, you know, um musically. So uh and then another thing is that um you know Bernadette is so funny in the role and um at least there's like a there's a clip on YouTube of a press rehearsal like that the they're still in the studio. They have not moved into the Martin Beck yet but it's the it's the Broadway production, you know, maybe their final rehearsal in the studio or something.

[43:50] John Bell: Um, and it's there's a sequence from the opening rap, and Bernadette is much less funny than she is on the cast recording or certainly the video. And uh it seems safe to for me to guess that a lot of that comedy was stuff she found, you know, once she was really doing the material. And so uh I'm curious, like, was there much comedy in really anything you can say to help me understand how much of it was a difference between the persona of Ellen Foley and the persona of Bernadette Peters with something happening in between with Betty Buckley and how much was the you know material growing.

[44:32] John Bell: I don't know if you can help me figure that out. My my only sense is is I think that with Ellen Foley's version of it in San Diego, it was pretty dark, it was pretty driving, it was pretty edgy. And and uh and it was also a little unclear. I mean, be I mean, part of the response that I had to it was is that it almost had um an inappropriate expression of a mother-daughter relationship to it. It it felt a you know, I felt that it was very unclear. It was hard, it was edgy, but I wasn't quite sure what it was.

[45:11] John Bell: And so my sense is once I got had a clear realization that this is gonna go on to New York, and it sounds like they're making some changes here, that all made sense to me because I felt that it needed some clarity to it, right? It just needed some clarity. Um, I never learned about Betty Buckley and the workshop that happened before the New York uh uh production until well after I had seen it in New York and continued on with my association with Sondheim's, and then read at some point that there had been this thing with Betty Buckley, and that the little bit I heard was that you know she was very intense and very impactful.

[45:48] John Bell: Um, and so I just thought, well, you know, yeah. So was it was it intended for her? And or were there issues with Bernadette? I know I saw Bernadette come out to see it, and uh, but I've never really begun to been able to understand that. I do think that you know the humor in San Diego was in Joanna Gleason.

[46:07] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[46:07] John Bell: She was she was the pressure valve, and she she and Chip sort of carried that whole sort of getting us through that, um, getting an audience who's not quite sure what this musical is. And is it over in act one? Do we come back for act two? Yeah, the baker and the baker's wife is what carried you through.

[46:23] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[46:23] John Bell: Um, but certainly by the time it got to New York with Bernadette and the humor that she brought to it, almost in some cases, you know, vaudevillian, like so big, you know, those are all little vaudeville turns, you know what I mean? Um, but she had, yeah, she had found that. But I I can't really tell you about Betty's role in it and what the the thing was. And it makes perfect sense if you tell me that Bernadette was reportedly scheduled to work on a movie, and so they felt like they wouldn't get enough time with her, and so they went to somebody else, but then that didn't work out, and they figured let's get her in and launch the show.

[46:58] John Bell: Certainly, I can imagine from their experience in San Diego where the reviewers were not kind, yeah, that they felt star power was necessary.

[47:07] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[47:08] John Bell: Yeah. Um, that's uh uh it's interesting what you say about um the inappropriateness, and I'm so I think Betty Buckley would be gratified to hear you say that. Because I have not talked to Betty for this podcast yet, but there's a wonderful book, Maybe You've Read It, Nothing Like a Dame by Eddie Shapiro.

[47:27] John Bell: No, I haven't. These wonderful, I think there's a follow-up book, and there's one that's all Broadway leading men, but nothing like a Dame is these great Broadway leading ladies, Betty Buckley, Patti LuPone, Chita Rivera, um, many other people, not Bernadette. But um, these great just conversations with them, uh, and they're very frank and fascinating, um, about ins and outs of their career.

[47:50] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[47:51] John Bell: And Betty talks, uh, I believe it's the only time in in print, uh, about her involvement with Into the Woods, which I mean, one of the reasons for me even doing this podcast is how little information is out there about uh the gestation of this uh, you know, iconic landmark show. Um, but Betty says in that book that um her uh sort of artistic uh difference with Lapine over the character was that she saw um uh the relationship between the witch and Rapunzel as an abusive mother, and Lapine saw it as a lesbian relationship.

[48:34] John Bell: And uh, and and she talks about sh I I think she says from her point of view, after she was gone, they wound up doing what she had been advocating for. And I found that so confusing because I thought, well, did Lapine mean like there's a a color of the relationship that has like an incestual vibe? Or was he literally saying like she has taken this girl as her ward, like the judge in Joanna, and wants to, you know, uh have sex with her. And you know, that's not really clear to me um in in this interview with Betty Buckley, but one of the things I would love to ask her about.

[49:14] John Bell: Um, but uh, but it's fascinating that you said the inappropriateness of the relationship. Did what can you say anything about more about that?

[49:24] John Bell: Yeah, I was trying to be delicate in talking to you about it because that was exactly the vibe you got in San Diego. Is that um and and now it's interesting that Lapine says that that's how he envisioned the relationship as uh I don't know what I don't I Lapine did not say that to me, but okay, but so there was some sense that maybe that was Lapine's sense of what he was looking for in the relationship um from someone else's interpretation. I certainly got that interpretation. Some of the physical actions that Ellen Foley was doing in as the witch, um, certainly spoke toward um a physical attractiveness, a physical impulse.

[50:06] John Bell: And and and that was part of what was confusing. Um because it it took it to a very different place. Yeah. Um interesting and fascinating, but it just you you had you you just it was hard to settle in on it.

[50:24] John Bell: Yeah. And so if Betty had a workshop where she was sort of bringing in more of the maternal, a troubled maternal relationship, and that she and Lapine may have clashed over that interpretation, it's fascinating to think then that when Bernadette got her hands on it, it really moved in the direction that Betty might have been suggesting. Because I s I certainly can tell you as someone who experienced the one as an observer and the other as the observer, this the evolution felt felt much more impactful in this story about parents and children.

[50:57] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, for sure.

[50:58] John Bell: And you know, also I I actually want to have a second conversation with Lapine now that I have all this information, because it's possible that he will say, Yes, Betty helped us realize that that was one of the wonderful impacts she had on the show, and we got to continue to benefit from, and that's not why she was news, you know. Um, I don't it may be that they all would agree about that now.

[51:22] John Bell: Um so it sounds like you felt that uh aside from the um evolution of the material, that Ellen Foley's performance was strong, and that the desire to replace her had to do with getting a name and not a you know, quote unquote better performance.

[51:39] John Bell: I think Ellen Foley's performance was powerful. I mean, she was just a fearless actress, just incredible, and she was making bold choices and she didn't hold back, and some of it sometimes felt more like um it was coming out of her background as a rock singer, yeah. But she wasn't afraid, she was going to bring that to the stage, you know what I mean? So that was all fascinating. Uh, but my sense is yeah, that they just it was the evolution of the role and the show, because as you know, all of that second half of act two is all about the parents and the children.

[52:10] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[52:10] John Bell: So that's clearly where it was going.

[52:13] Ben Rimalower: Um, speaking of the parents and the children, was there in San Diego or are you familiar with this song, "Second Midnight," this like six minute beast of a group number?

[52:26] John Bell: Yeah.

[52:26] John Bell: Yeah, and the first midnight, the second midnight, and I I I can remember the two, and when when they got to the last midnight for Bernadette, something something's told me, oh, is that that third midnight that I was aware of? And and but but that might just be my old memory with it, you know what I mean?

[52:45] John Bell: But there was the first midnight, which was no everyone sort of prophesizing about what they're learning along the way in the journey. And then the second one, which takes that a little deeper. And I loved that. I loved because I love a structural device that continues to sort of um expand and take you deeper as the story evolves. And that's what it did. My sense of it is that it was cut, and I think it was cut in San Diego. I could be wrong about that. Maybe it just didn't make it to New York. But either way, is that it was about the uh the uh the show is too long.

[53:18] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[53:36] John Bell: And I'm curious how you see that and what how you saw that evolve.

[53:43] John Bell: Well, this is of course coming when as I've grown older and had a chance to get to know the show really well and been involved in it on my own now in a number of different productions. But you know, the two that you just set up, they're one of the same. I mean, parents of children and how an individual operates in for the greater good is really the very goal and role of parents for their children. And so I found those two things sort of of a piece that what a parent does with their child, hopefully does prepare them to be a kind person who cares about the greater good, not just their own individual good. So I always those things are interchangeable in my mind, you know.

[54:26] John Bell: I'm wow, I think you just explained "Children Will Listen."

[54:30] John Bell: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Um one complaint that I've felt at times watching other productions of the show, um, was that there was this sort of um kind of uh inspirational power ballad after inspirational power ballad back to back for the final you know 25 minutes with no more "Into No One Is Alone" into "Children Will Listen." And I wonder if your sense of the piece has feels that there's a weighted down there too.

[55:03] John Bell: I think so. I think one of the things that I in subsequent conversations with Sondheim's over the years after that experience, um, I was doing some writing myself, and I would send some of that to him and get some feedback from him, and so I had an opportunity to sort of you know, learn from him a little bit. And one of the cautions he gave me on a piece that I had put together was you've got three endings, John. Choose an ending. And I often think that "Into the Woods" feels that way with those picked up power ballads that it decided, okay, we're gonna land on the emotional impact of children, you know, and how the things we do in this world impact other people, and it keeps saying that over and over again.

They're glorious songs. I can I can I know why you wouldn't take the scalpel to them, you know, but that is a moment where you've got enough, you could probably trim this down for and make this even more concise. So I do feel that, and I understand the criticism of it.

[56:01] John Bell: Yeah. Although you didn't have "Children Will Listen" in at the Old Globe, is that right?

[56:06] John Bell: That's correct. We did not.

[56:08] John Bell: And did you did you feel like maybe it was better in that respect when it didn't have yet another?

[56:18] John Bell: Um when I saw it in New York and got to "Children Will Listen," "Children Will Listen" felt good to me.

[56:26] John Bell: Yeah. It felt good to me.

[56:28] John Bell: Yeah, and that's not that "No More" and "No One Is Alone" don't feel good. They feel good for all kinds of right reasons. Um, but it felt good to me. Because, you know, it was uh the dead witch and the dead baker coming or baker's wife coming back from the dead, and it had this sort of metaphysical, ethereal sort of here's the grand moral of it all. So you kind of know what they were trying to do with it. But you know, if today I would be hard-pressed to want to cut one of those numbers, even though I understand the criticism of it.

[57:00] John Bell: Yeah. I can't think of another show that I think is a well-written show that has committed that sin and gotten away with it.

[57:10] John Bell: Yeah, yeah, that's true. Um are there any things in the show that that you might have thought uh could someone else has mentioned um that the whole sequence with the prince going to the stepsisters, even though it's a you know familiar, beloved part of the Cinderella story with them trying on the shoes, that that whole thing didn't need to actually be happening on stage in this piece.

[57:38] John Bell: Yeah, I still feel that way today, that there are stuff that could have been handled expositorily since you got the device of a narrator anyway.

[57:46] John Bell: Yeah. Um, that you didn't necessarily have to. But I mean, that whole scene with the trying on the shoe and the cutting off the toe, I mean, that was uh that was uh that was a definite crowd response. I won't say crowd teaser, but I think it was pleasing to a crowd, even if they found it graphic and gross.

[58:02] John Bell: Oh, for sure. Yeah, you know, so it sort of enlivened the proceedings, and I kind of understand why it was there and why it was kept.

[58:10] John Bell: Totally. Um, and how about the device of the double casting of the narrator and the mysterious man? Because that's something that changed from the Old Globe. How how did that strike you?

[58:23] John Bell: Um it was it was okay to me. It felt all right. It felt it felt kind of interesting to take the narrator and to get him then into the story. Yeah, even if it was just through a different character, you know, the audience would have some awareness that it's the same person playing the role, I think, even though the costuming and the wigging would change the look substantively. But that felt kind of good to me. It's sort of like in "Assassins" when the balladier in John Wilkes Booth.

[58:54] John Bell: Yeah, totally. It's that same thing. That's a lot of people don't like that, but I find that very satisfying in the productions when I've seen that happen.

[59:02] John Bell: And um uh what about the um uh Rapunzel? I I know that in San Diego K McLell and played um Florinda and Rapunzel, and that always seemed interesting to me. I mean, I'm a fan of hers and a fan of Pamela Winslow's uh who played Rapunzel on Broadway. But I um but I but I'm so curious how that the the way because I like what you said, the audience has an awareness, despite the wigs and the costumes, that this is uh the narrator, you know, and and I think that's really true. In a sense, it almost contributes to the sort of um storytelling presentational aspect of the show that he's part of putting on this show for us. Um I'm one I'm curious what how that uh felt to have that double casting.

[59:56] John Bell: It it didn't have any impact. Uh to me, it was just a commercial decision to save money and not hire another actor. Because if you just look at those two roles, even if you have the awareness, it doesn't make send any sort of message of uh in my mind of any value. Whereas the narrator and the mysterious man really does.

[1:00:14] John Bell: And um, is it true that um maybe if you remember uh that the Rapunzel um what would you call it? Like the vocalies, the the little ahs that she sings were down the octave in San Diego, and that that was an innovation for her to sing them high in in New York.

[1:00:31] John Bell: Uh they may have started down the octave in San Diego, but I remember them in San Diego being high.

[1:00:37] John Bell: Ah, okay. I do remember that. Be feeling feeling very high soprano-ish and just wafting out of the sky. I mean, that I I guess uh back to the sort of lesbian witch thing, one of the you know, very motherly moments of uh Bernadette's performance, and I think subsequent witches, is that um when she hears Rapunzel singing and she's so proud of her uh it's like her daughter, you know, that it's almost like someone's showing you pictures of their grandchildren or something, you know. Um, was that different? Is that one of the moments where Ellen Foley's witch had like a sexual pleasure from the the sound of the was there a sensuality or something to it?

[1:01:16] John Bell: Absolutely. I mean, this is one thing about Ellen Foley is that any pleasure in her interpretation of that role, it coursed through the body in ways that, you know, sort of had that spine-tangling sensibility for her. I mean, I was really registering on a physical level.

[1:01:33] John Bell: Fascinating.

[1:01:35] John Bell: Um, glad to know that. Um, and just going back to the Rapunzel's theme, you know, and I'm I'm just trying to really remember do I do I remember it down low? And I never did. And you know that, yeah, of course you know this because you've you know this show better than I think anybody I've ever met. Um that theme becomes, you know, don't you know what's out there? Stay with me. It's it's in the accompaniment of "No One Is Alone." I mean, that theme. It's an agony, it's in it's in everything. And so I think so. Thing is what's made separated it, made it statement, and then gave Sondheim's permission to sort of then place it in other places in in wonderfully lower and hidden layers, you know.

[1:02:25] John Bell: Yeah, yeah, if that's the tapestry of the score.

[1:02:28] John Bell: Yeah.

[1:02:29] John Bell: Um, and uh I I guess as a young Sondheim's fan who had done his research, did you have a sense of this piece in the sort of um canon of Sondheim's, like, you know, from the beginning?

[1:02:46] John Bell: Um that's such an interesting question. I think because I was I was in this enviable position of being able to be a part of it and actually kind of touch it and observe it and see it, that I wasn't thinking that way. I was so distracted by and consumed by just taking in what I was seeing and learning, and that it was it was almost like you know, a course of study for me is another class that I was going to. And it's larger impact in terms of the show, what did it become? And how does it then sort of fit into his larger, you know, canon of work, and especially now that he's gone and a lot of people are sort of looking more reflectively at that arc of his career?

[1:03:27] John Bell: Yeah, now you certainly understand its place. But at the time I don't think I was even thinking about it that way. In fact, you know, when it went to New York and I finally saw it in New York, I was like, you know, okay, how has this changed? You know, I was still in that sort of student learning editorial mode, you know.

[1:03:43] John Bell: Yeah, I mean, it's it is it's interesting how much, especially for younger generations, this is really like the Sondheim's musical, and that's not how it was, you know, necessarily perceived by Sondheim's's contemporaries and then the world of the original production. But I you just struck me though that this internship that you got almost out of convenience because you had to fulfill this requirement, and this wasn't really exactly what was even in your mind the assignment, but you were just gonna kind of like you know, finagle it turned out to be this probably you know, transcendent experience in your life as an artist and and and you know, professional.

[1:04:25] John Bell: Um, you couldn't have you couldn't have said it better. It was a life-changing experience, though I feel like serendipity just dropped into my lap.

[1:04:33] John Bell: Yeah, it's it's so funny that something that that it almost seems like a cutting a corner uh turns out to be you know the the center centerpiece of your education, you know.

[1:04:45] John Bell: Um boy was I ever the envy of my classmates in my MFA program. I was the envy of all of them. They're like, do you have any of your hands on any of the music? Can you show us any of the music? It was crazy.

[1:04:59] John Bell: And how soon were you able to get to New York and see the show?

[1:05:04] John Bell: No, I think that I did it open in February. No, it opened in uh uh like the end of October, beginning of November, something like that.

[1:05:13] John Bell: Oh, wait a minute. So it left it left San Diego in January, and you're saying it didn't open until the following fall.

[1:05:23] John Bell: Yeah, no, no, they did all kinds of um choreography workshops and casting, and then they had a full workshop for a couple of weeks in July. Um, and then they started rehearsals in uh September and previews, and yeah.

[1:05:38] John Bell: Then that tells me, and that's really helpful that you know that so well. Then that tells me because I would have started my second year in the MFA program in San Diego in California, and I would not have been able to get to New York. So I probably didn't see it in New York until I would bet late April or May. But then Bernadette would have been gone. Did you not see Bernadette?

[1:05:56] John Bell: I did see Bernadette.

[1:05:59] John Bell: So when did she leave it?

[1:06:01] John Bell: I'm pretty sure she left in March.

[1:06:03] John Bell: All right. Then then I maybe it was my spring break or something. I got there because I heard she was gonna leave or something, and I wanted to get to see her. So that's that's the timing then for me.

[1:06:12] John Bell: Yeah.

[1:06:13] John Bell: Um, and so did you feel like you were seeing a show that you know, quote unquote your show, you know, that you that you were involved in.

[1:06:23] John Bell: Yeah.

[1:06:24] John Bell: I I did. It was it was different enough that it was still sort of, you know, I was disoriented by it.

[1:06:29] John Bell: Yeah.

[1:06:29] John Bell: But there was enough familiarity there, and certainly when you see, oh, there's Chip and there's Joanna, and there's that beautiful relationship, it feels so familiar. So it was both familiar and you know, and yet different, you know.

[1:06:41] John Bell: If if you don't mind going into belabor, a different aspect of the show um that I haven't asked you about is the the baker's wife's end.

[1:06:49] John Bell: I understand that that is something that they were experimenting with in San Diego. In I think the workshop they did that summer was in of 87 was partly to try out. I think they even had like two or three different invited performances, each with a different ending. One where the baker's wife died, one where the baker's wife didn't die, and one I think where everybody died. But I'm curious, like, did that seem like an unsolved problem? What does she she ate like a poison apple or something in San Diego? Is that right?

[1:07:24] John Bell: Yeah, she ate the poison apple. Did it seem like an unsolved problem? A lot of the show felt like unsolved problems. The problem, the show threw its run and left San Diego with lots of things that just you knew weren't done yet. Um so there was a lot of that, but um, I I think I it was I recall being jarred by losing her.

[1:07:48] John Bell: Yeah, I think that was the intention. Um it was a powerful statement to make on a character that we care that much about. Um, but I remember feeling unsettled by it, and I remember thinking that's the wrong thing to do. Um, and I think I still feel that way when I feel the show. Now having her come back sort of as a ghost figure at the end, yeah, as the father's going to try to take the baby and go forward, that sort of it sort of gives it some redemption, but that just felt so uh I felt such the loss of that.

[1:08:18] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:08:19] John Bell: You know.

[1:08:19] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, it it is jarring, that's for sure. Um and um I I I know that uh Joanna's um input was really instrumental in how the character and her material evolved, especially uh her song Moments in the Woods.

[1:08:36] John Bell: And I guess it was called Ready for the Woods or something like that still in San Diego.

[1:08:41] Ben Rimalower: That registers with me, yes. I mean, do you remember that being significantly different, or was it just about sort of refining the finer points of it?

[1:08:51] John Bell: In my mind, it was about a refining it. That as I saw it when I saw it in New York, it was still that tune in essence. My biggest recollection of that piece in San Diego was um and Joanna has uh mentioned this in interviews that she just didn't trust herself as a singer because it asked her to move into her mixed voice and especially up into her head.

[1:09:15] John Bell: And it was just sort of fascinating to watch a singer um have to trust the material and and how what she would do as an actor could help with the vocal adjustments that needed to be and and certainly when I saw it in New York, I thought, wow boy, listen to that voice. She's really just trusting the blossom on top of it.

[1:09:39] Ben Rimalower: I love the blossom on top.

[1:09:41] John Bell: Um, yeah, she talked about that too, how they would she would say, Oh, I I can't sing that. And would sort of impatiently be like, Yeah, you can, just do it. Um and uh it it is such a um impactful resonant performance. I mean, I think it's in some ways the the hardest, especially with the video, uh, where people know all her line readings kind of by heart because they're so funny and so inspired and and just you know, smart.

[1:10:12] John Bell: Um that you know, people I think there's such a uh uh uh a a wide shadow cast by that performance that it's hard for other actors to sort of you know find their way. Um, but it's funny that it was one that she you know uh had to find. Did did it seem when you see that fully realized performance by Joanna?

[1:10:35] John Bell: Uh is it just the difference in the confidence in the vocals that that evolved, or were there other pieces of that that it seemed like she still was working through in San Diego?

[1:10:47] John Bell: Um listen, she was brilliant in San Diego. Her comic timing, she led chip, she led Chip to what that those scenes could become and what that relationship should become. She just brilliant. So and and that I saw in New York. I mean, as I saw it in San Diego, it was, you know, pretty much right there the whole way through.

[1:11:07] John Bell: So for me, when I saw it in New York, it was the development or confidence of the voice. But more than that, I think was that she somewhere along the way figured out that all she had to do was take the impulses of the acting, of the actors' impulses of the work in the character, and let that help with the singing.

[1:11:26] John Bell: And that's what I I sensed was the realization, you know. And it got her into a discovery that there's more voice in me that I didn't know. And it's very usable. In fact, the vulnerability of going up through the mid part of the register and then blossoming into a full head voice, the vulnerability.

[1:11:43] John Bell: So, what am I singing about? Where's the vulnerability and what I'm singing about? Bring the vulnerability to just take me right up into that. And it was just wonderful.

[1:11:53] Ben Rimalower: That's fascinating. Thank you. Um, yeah, we hear that. Um, both in the vulnerability and in the comedy.

[1:12:01] John Bell: Absolutely.

[1:12:02] Ben Rimalower: Um God, I mean, I could just pick your brain all day. Um, I'm I guess is anything else that that struck you seeing it on Broadway after having had this um developmental experience with it?

[1:12:17] John Bell: Um just that the continued um imprint in my mind that I was what I was seeing how shows got put together.

[1:12:26] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:12:27] John Bell: And for a kid, it was like I had no idea that this type of thought and trial and error and casting and recasting. I just had no idea. And so that was that was just the biggest piece for me.

[1:12:44] John Bell: I will share this one little snip tidbit with you. When um Sondheim's was there for opening, and then Sondheim's went back to New York and it continued to play. While he was gone, the reviews came out. And the reviews were not good for the most part. Um and here I was thinking I was gonna do something really helpful because I was his assistant, supposedly.

[1:13:10] John Bell: Um, I sent him a copy of the reviews. Now I'm sure the press people with the show had probably sent him the reviews, but I didn't know that. So I sent him a note saying, Dear Mr. Santheim, you know, I know you're back in New York and you will be won't be coming back into town for a couple weeks, but the reviews have come in and and um I wanted you to send them. I thought you probably, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[1:13:32] John Bell: And I said, and some of them aren't very positive, but um, you know, I was you know, making some statement like that, thinking it was my place to, you know, set the the context for him, like he would need that, right? And um, so I sent that off to him, and then before he returned to the production, I got a note back from him.

[1:13:51] John Bell: And dear John, thanks for sending the reviews. Some of them are not very nice, is an understatement. And then the letter went into a tirade about the role of the theater critic being the low man on the totem pole, the people who uh have have no right to criticize because they have no idea what the effort in in the practice of doing is, and just really unleashed a personal venom, not to me, yeah, it was through me because I happened to uh inspire it by sending them to him.

[1:14:27] John Bell: But uh boy, I was really taken back by that, and it uh elevated the power of critics in this business, it's about money, and um the chasm that can exist between critics and writers. Um, and then of course, you think about Frank Rich and the relationship they developed and how Sondheim's befriended him and brought him into his circle.

[1:14:49] John Bell: But that was an early taste of you know, just that response.

[1:14:55] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, fascinating. Um, although it people are surprised Frank Rich was pretty negative about Into the Woods, yes, exactly.

[1:15:03] John Bell: Yeah, um, so fascinating, but definitely part of the Sondheim's uh circle, no nonetheless. Um and I and seeing the show over the years and the the film adaptation, any revivals that did do you have any sort of evolving thoughts on on the the significance of the piece or or the impact of it?

[1:15:10] John Bell: The answer is no um because I think the piece registers on so many personal levels for the people who see it and and then appreciate it and love it um it makes a bold statement about you know the greater good and our responsibilities to one another and I think that's important um but no I I don't I don't I maybe it's that I don't really presume presume to feel like I don't I don't know I just I don't it's to me it's a powerful beautiful piece of theater among many that he has written and among you know lots of that have existed in in our musical theater canon you know I don't know I I hope that's not disappointing but no no it's almost it's almost the question is almost too big for me I know to tell you the truth it it's I listen I people are surprised when I say that into the woods is not in my top five favorite sondheim shows wow I mean that's still pretty good to be in my top six favorite sometime shows that's you know whatever but um you know it's it's complicated but um uh you mentioned that you had worked on several productions after that and were did you direct them or what was your yeah I've directed it twice I choreographed it once and I've and I've conducted it three times and the joy of the conducting experience has been every single time I found something new in the score which is why I love to conduct uh a good piece of musical writing.

[1:17:02] John Bell: Um, and so yeah, I feel like I know the show from lots of different angles.

[1:17:07] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah.

[1:17:08] John Bell: Um, and that's that's lovely and wonderful. Um, I'd I mean, if you would share just a tidbit of new things you found in the score conducting, I I'd love I'd love to know any of that.

[1:17:19] John Bell: Oh my goodness. Um I think that the production that I did that had the inclusion of the duet between the witch and Rapunzel, Our Little World.

[1:17:32] John Bell: Yeah, um, how that was the same melody of no more, uh running away, our little world. I didn't realize that.

[1:17:41] Ben Rimalower: See, this is why it's so important to ask you this.

[1:17:43] John Bell: Yes.

[1:17:44] John Bell: Yeah. So when I discovered that, you know, I thought, running away, we'll do it. Our little world is perfect. The exact same notes. And in fact, it's the exact same rhythm. Um, it's just different words.

[1:17:57] John Bell: And so when I when I had that moment, and I'm like, oh my gosh, you know, and then I'm thinking, well, of course. The witch, the mother to the child, Rapunzel, the mysterious man to the child, the baker.

[1:18:12] John Bell: And that again, motiv music motif motives being used to imprint theme and relationship, and uh I mean, just things like that blow me away, you know. You know, and how I would have loved, and uh I'm sure I didn't after I discovered that you know, it would have been like me to send him a note or call him up and say, Hey, I just discovered this, but I didn't, and I would have loved to have had uh a conversation with him about just tell me about that, tell me where that came from.

[1:18:40] John Bell: Yeah, so that's one that's one example.

[1:18:43] Ben Rimalower: I love that.

[1:18:44] John Bell: I mean, well, you know, that's the beauty of Sondheim's is these these rich scores, you can revisit them just throughout your life, decade after decade. They always have something new to offer you.

[1:18:52] Ben Rimalower: It's it's always uh fresh in a way.

[1:18:58] John Bell: Amen, brother.

[1:19:00] Ben Rimalower: Um, John, I can't thank you enough for talking to me. It is uh even better than than I hoped when when Paul said that that you had a an into the woods story of your own. Um so I'm thank you, and I'm so grateful, and I know everyone listening will be uh grateful too.

[1:19:17] John Bell: Well, thanks for the invitation. I have enjoyed talking to you. It's wonderful to talk to somebody with the depth of knowledge that you have. So it's been fun for me too.

[1:19:24] John Bell: We'll have to chat again when I'm all done and I learn more new things.

[1:19:28] Ben Rimalower: Please do. Please do. Let's let's keep it going.

[1:19:31] John Bell: Um, well, have a wonderful rest of your day, and uh I I look forward to another chat with you at some point.

[1:19:41] Ben Rimalower: Thank you for listening to Giants in the Sky, how Sondheim's and Le Pine went into the woods on the Broadway Podcast Network. Look out for episode 30 with Maureen Moore, the witch on the demos.