This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Ben Rimalower: Broadway Podcast Network presents Giants in the Sky: How Sondheim and Lapine's Went Into the Woods.

[0:06] Ben Rimalower: With me, Ben Rimalower.

[0:14] Stephen Dolginoff: Once upon a time.

[0:21] Stephen Dolginoff: I am the author and composer of the off-Broadway musical Thrill Me, the Leopold and Loeb Story, for which I received Drama Desk Award nominations for Best Musical and Best Music, an Outer Critics Circle Award nomination for Best Off Broadway Musical, won an ASCAP Music Award and a Los Angeles Garland Award.

[0:41] Stephen Dolginoff: After its extended run in New York City, Thrill Me has gone on to have nearly 200 productions in 22 countries and 14 languages, winning multiple awards along the way.

[0:53] Stephen Dolginoff: My other musicals have collectively had multiple productions all over the world, including New York City, London, and Shanghai.

[1:00] Stephen Dolginoff: My work is published by Samuel French/Concord Theatricals and Dramatists Play Service/Broadway Licensing.

[1:11] Stephen Dolginoff: Let me take you back into the early 1980s, and on one of my very first trips to New York, I saw Sunday in the Park with George, maybe two weeks after it opened.

[1:23] Stephen Dolginoff: Wow.

[1:24] Stephen Dolginoff: And you know, I was about 16 then, so I was probably too young to appreciate it, but I knew that it was something really special, and I knew that I would be really glad to be able to someday say that I saw that.

[1:37] Stephen Dolginoff: So I was very much sort of in tune to Sondheim and Lapine's working together as this new team just because I had been there to see it so early, and you know, I could tell all my friends that couldn't have cared less about it back in Kansas City.

[1:52] Stephen Dolginoff: So I was really excited.

[1:54] Stephen Dolginoff: So in 1986, I moved to New York to come to NYU in the drama department.

[2:02] Stephen Dolginoff: And I remember I think reading something about Sondheim and Lapine's's next collaboration, and that it would be called Into the Woods, because I knew about it, I knew what it was.

[2:15] Stephen Dolginoff: Also, we had this big class called Intro to New York Theater, where the entire freshman class would meet in an auditorium and we would have some big figure come and talk to us.

[2:29] Stephen Dolginoff: And one of the early ones was Ira Weitzman, head of musical theater development, I believe, at Playwright's Horizons then.

[2:36] Stephen Dolginoff: And I know he was connected to it, and I think he might have also told us a little bit about it, because I definitely knew what it was.

[2:43] Stephen Dolginoff: And of course, there's no internet then, and there's barely any way to find out anything about theater other than, you know, a blurb in Theater Week magazine, or maybe you see a casting notice in Backstage, or Liz Smith's column, you know, which was like a gossip column or page six in a newspaper.

[3:02] Stephen Dolginoff: So somehow I knew about it.

[3:05] Stephen Dolginoff: So one day in the fall, I want to say it was October or November, I go to our lounge, the NYU drama student lounge at 721 Broadway, which is still there, and we had this huge bulletin board where people would post, you know, casting for something or looking for something, or you know, feed my cat, I don't know.

[3:27] Stephen Dolginoff: And in the middle of the bulletin board, there was, and it must have been handwritten, was just like a want ad, and it said, blocking exercises for new musical, call Ira Weitzman and a phone number or something like that.

[3:45] Stephen Dolginoff: I don't know what I didn't know what blocking exercises meant.

[3:49] Stephen Dolginoff: It didn't say Sondheim, it didn't say Into the Woods.

[3:53] Stephen Dolginoff: So I didn't know what it was, but I had remembered who Ira Weitzman was.

[3:56] Stephen Dolginoff: So I called the number.

[3:58] Stephen Dolginoff: And at that point, I was told it was for Into the Woods.

[4:03] Stephen Dolginoff: And I didn't know if this was to audition to be part of these blocking exercises.

[4:11] Stephen Dolginoff: I had no idea what it was.

[4:12] Stephen Dolginoff: And all the woman at the other end of the phone wanted to know was, are you free this night, this night, and this night?

[4:18] Stephen Dolginoff: And I said yes, and they said, Great, come to Westbeth Theater Center.

[4:22] Stephen Dolginoff: And you're in.

[4:24] Stephen Dolginoff: So I was instantly magically, some tiny little part of Into the Woods, just from, you know, reading a want ad on a bulletin board.

[4:34] Stephen Dolginoff: Can you imagine if something like that was posted today, it would be all over the internet, they would be flooded.

[4:41] Stephen Dolginoff: But you know, I don't even think that many people called, but I don't really know.

[4:45] Stephen Dolginoff: So anyway, Westbeth Theater Center was a big complex in the village near NYU, and it had rehearsal halls and maybe theaters.

[4:54] Stephen Dolginoff: So this is in the West Village, like meatpacking district, right?

[4:59] Stephen Dolginoff: It's this, I think it's still there, right?

[5:00] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[5:01] Stephen Dolginoff: I, yeah, I, is it still there as Westbeth?

[5:04] Ben Rimalower: I'm not sure.

[5:05] Stephen Dolginoff: I've seen not too long ago a couple of things there.

[5:09] Stephen Dolginoff: Um, yeah.

[5:10] Stephen Dolginoff: Yeah, so that's where it was.

[5:13] Stephen Dolginoff: So I went there on the night in question.

[5:16] Stephen Dolginoff: A friend of mine ended up being there as well.

[5:19] Stephen Dolginoff: I didn't know that I would see her there, but she was there.

[5:22] Stephen Dolginoff: And in my mind, we were the youngest, and we were the only ones that seemed like students.

[5:30] Stephen Dolginoff: Maybe there were older students, and there might have been people that were maybe like friends of James Lapine or friends of Ira Weitzman.

[5:37] Stephen Dolginoff: So we get there, and Lapine's is there, and he introduces himself, and he had his female assistant, and Ira Weitzman was there, and Paul Ford was at the piano.

[5:47] Stephen Dolginoff: And I must have heard his name before because I recognized his name.

[5:53] Stephen Dolginoff: I knew who he was, I knew he worked with Sondheim, and I knew he was, you know, kind of a big deal, and just he was there at the piano.

[6:00] Stephen Dolginoff: It was a grand or a baby grand.

[6:02] Stephen Dolginoff: And so Lapine's explained what we were doing.

[6:05] Stephen Dolginoff: He said they were getting ready to go into a rehearsal for the production at the Old Globe, which I knew about, and he needed to test out some blocking.

[6:15] Stephen Dolginoff: This was for, this was clearly an end run around equity, you know, because, you know, no one ever said workshop, no one said reading.

[6:24] Stephen Dolginoff: It was like blocking exercises.

[6:26] Stephen Dolginoff: So, like, what did that mean?

[6:29] Stephen Dolginoff: So he looked everybody over and just walked up to me, and he said, You will be Jack.

[6:36] Stephen Dolginoff: So his assistant wrote the words Jack on a piece of paper and they pinned it on my chest.

[6:41] Stephen Dolginoff: So I was Jack.

[6:42] Stephen Dolginoff: My friend was Little Red Riding Hood.

[6:44] Stephen Dolginoff: You know, everyone else was with something else.

[6:46] Stephen Dolginoff: And we were told that we were gonna just sort of try out blocking for some of the more intricate numbers that maybe eventually he had with a choreographer, but I think maybe there wasn't necessarily a choreographer at this point.

[6:59] Stephen Dolginoff: So he was sort of testing it out.

[7:02] Stephen Dolginoff: And so we were handed sides, which are pages from the script, and we did Boom Crunch, Ever After, and one of the Midnight's Gone that had the title song in it.

[7:20] Stephen Dolginoff: Because I know that by the time I saw the show, I knew the title song.

[7:26] Stephen Dolginoff: So we couldn't have been taught the music, so it must have been Paul Ford just singing it from the piano.

[7:35] Stephen Dolginoff: And the reason we had sides was so we could, like, you know, mark down blocking and maybe say, you know, lines that we had.

[7:42] Stephen Dolginoff: And so we did, you know, some of the staging.

[7:47] Stephen Dolginoff: And I remember thinking it was good, but it was hard to understand exactly what was going on just with these pieces.

[7:56] Stephen Dolginoff: And a second night, Sondheim showed up.

[8:00] Stephen Dolginoff: He walked in, maybe during a break, and I remember thinking, okay, be cool, just be cool.

[8:11] Stephen Dolginoff: I was just like dying inside.

[8:13] Stephen Dolginoff: I couldn't believe it.

[8:13] Stephen Dolginoff: I was so excited.

[8:14] Stephen Dolginoff: And he was just, you know, came in to watch, and he either he had brought with him, or Paul Ford had brought a new arrangement, the first arrangement, but it was Giants in the Sky.

[8:31] Stephen Dolginoff: And it was definitely Giants in the Sky because I knew that that was Jack's song, and I was excited, you know, because I was being Jack.

[8:38] Stephen Dolginoff: And it might have been that he had written a new version of it or something like that, but whatever it was, he wanted Paul to play it for him.

[8:46] Stephen Dolginoff: And during a break, like everyone sort of gathered around the piano, and Paul played and sang Giants in the Sky, which seemed to be the first time people were hearing it.

[8:56] Stephen Dolginoff: I don't know who, and I don't know why.

[8:59] Stephen Dolginoff: And there might have been other songs played, but I specifically remember Giants in the Sky being one of them.

[9:05] Stephen Dolginoff: And then we, you know, went back and kept doing, you know, more staging and trying out things and trying to remember, you know, the blocking from the night before and all of that and being moved around.

[9:16] Stephen Dolginoff: And I don't, I honestly don't know how useful it was for Mr. Lapine because it was kind of a ragtag group because we didn't really know the context, we didn't know what we were doing, and you know, and he was, you know, having us move around and tried things, but you know, I guess it was.

[9:32] Stephen Dolginoff: By the third night, I will tell you this.

[9:38] Stephen Dolginoff: One of the other people had a camera, like a disposable camera.

[9:43] Stephen Dolginoff: And this was before people had cameras with them, obviously, and I'd never thought to bring one.

[9:49] Stephen Dolginoff: So somewhere there is photographic evidence of this having taken place.

[9:53] Stephen Dolginoff: Someone has it.

[9:54] Stephen Dolginoff: If anyone out there is listening, please, you know, contact Ben, because someone was taking pictures of us like on a break or something.

[10:02] Stephen Dolginoff: And we continued to, you know, do these numbers.

[10:06] Stephen Dolginoff: I knew the Witch's Rap before I saw the show.

[10:11] Stephen Dolginoff: So either we worked on that moment, which I don't know why, because that only involved a few people, or maybe it was part of the sides that we had, and I read it, but I definitely knew of that song.

[10:25] Stephen Dolginoff: Maybe that was another one that Paul Ford played for some reason.

[10:28] Stephen Dolginoff: Maybe Lapine's wanted to hear it.

[10:30] Stephen Dolginoff: And I remember him, Mr. Lapine, having a conversation either with Ira Weitzman or Sondheim, saying he had just seen either the sketch or the model of the set at the Old Globe, and he was worried because it was so much green.

[10:44] Stephen Dolginoff: He said it was very green.

[10:46] Stephen Dolginoff: And I think he didn't like that there was so much green in it.

[10:50] Stephen Dolginoff: And I remember thinking, you know, he wasn't saying it to us, I just overheard him saying it.

[10:54] Stephen Dolginoff: And I remember thinking, well, it's the woods, isn't it?

[10:57] Stephen Dolginoff: I mean, shouldn't it be green?

[10:58] Stephen Dolginoff: You know.

[10:59] Stephen Dolginoff: So, but I know that he was very concerned about it being so green.

[11:04] Stephen Dolginoff: So we're at the end of the third night and our work is over and we hand in our sides, which I cannot believe I did.

[11:04] Stephen Dolginoff: I cannot believe I didn't keep those sides.

[11:16] Stephen Dolginoff: I probably could have gotten away with taking it, but I didn't.

[11:22] Stephen Dolginoff: So the proof is gone.

[11:25] Stephen Dolginoff: But my friend and I, you know, got up the courage to ask Mr. Lapine if we could audition for him.

[11:30] Stephen Dolginoff: And we knew the show was already cast, and he explained that. But we thought we may never have this opportunity again. And he was very nice. And if we had brought pictures and resumes with us, he said to give them to his assistant. And if we didn't, he said just mail them to the assistants. He was, you know, very nice. And I remember a bunch of us went to a Chinese restaurant nearby afterwards and just talked about it and talked about what we what sense we could make of the show. We obviously knew it was mashed up fairy tales and what we thought, and you know, if it would come to Broadway, because that even for a Sondheim show, that wasn't guaranteed. It maybe it wouldn't have done well with the Old Globe.

Um so, you know, I just sort of continued to follow it and I would tell people this story, and people would say, Oh, that's that's nice. Um I got to be Jack in the first sort of rehearsal ish for The Old Globe, which was sort of a fun little claim to fame, I guess you would say, although it certainly wasn't in front of an audience. Um, and I probably said two of the lines, maybe, but I did get to be one of the first people to hear "Giants in the Sky," be it the new version, be it the new arrangement, something like that, but I was there. So I continued reading about the show over the next several months. This was the fall of '86. Uh, it opened on Broadway about a year later in '87. And I remembered reading that Betty Buckley was possibly going to be the witch, and I think I knew that Ellen Foley was the witch at the Old Globe, and she wasn't going to be the witch after that. And I remember reading about Betty Buckley.

[13:05] Stephen Dolginoff: Do you remember where you read about Betty Buckley? It would have been in Theater Week. It would have been in a gossip column, because there would have just been nowhere else for me to read it. I wasn't buying the New York Times. And it I know she, you know, obviously she never actually got the part, and whether she was actually ever officially cast and it was announced, I don't remember, and I don't know. But I remember knowing that she was possibly gonna do it. And I remembered her from '80s enough, and I liked her from that. And I thought, well, that'll be fun. And I'd seen her in Cats, of course. So, you know, and I didn't know much about the witch's role. I had no idea that the witch was going to turn glamorous.

I didn't know that part. But eventually I read, and again, this was probably in Theater Week, just here is the cast of Into the Woods, and it included Bernadette Peters. And I remember thinking, who would Bernadette Peters be playing? Cinderella? Gosh, she's maybe a little old for Cinderella, but who else could she possibly be? Because it didn't say who was playing who. And I don't know why I never thought, you know, well, maybe she could play the baker's wife. Maybe I knew Joanna Gleason was the baker's wife. I don't know. But nowhere did I ever see a cast list in the months leading up to it coming to Broadway? I literally had no idea. I had a friend who was a big Bernadette Peters fan who still lived in Kansas City, and she was very excited that I was gonna get to see Bernadette.

And because I'd seen her in Song and Dance, but excited that you know I'd see her in another show. And I got a ticket for the second preview, which was on a Wednesday matinee. I think it was I wrote it down. It was September 30th, 1987. Preview started on the Tuesday. I cut class and went to Wednesday. I go into the theater, receive my playbill, open it, and that is how I knew Bernadette was playing the witch. Only when I was in the theater handed the playbill. Now, I'm sure other people knew, I'm sure people in the industry knew, but there was nowhere, nowhere had I seen it, and no one that I knew knew who she was playing. I mean, it makes perfect sense now, but like in hindsight, I really had no idea.

And then later in the show when she turned glamorous, then it kind of made sense because I just thought, why would Bernadette Peters want to play this old witch? But then again, why would Betty Buckley have either? So anyway, so the show starts, and I'm sitting let me just ask you before it starts. So were you were you like, oh wow, I bet she's gonna blow my mind, or are you just like, what a bad part? This is such a bad career decision. Like I just couldn't wrap my mind around it.

[16:01] Stephen Dolginoff: I didn't know. I really didn't know. I don't even necessarily remember thinking that the rap was all that funny. Whether I heard it, whether I had read it. Yeah. Um, I it just didn't really stick in my mind. I knew Boom Crunch. Yeah. I knew that she was, you know, going off on that. I did I knew that part. Did you like Boom Crunch? Well, I will tell you, I thought it was a little intricate and complicated, and in that rehearsal, that the blocking exercise, you might understand what was going on. It was in the first, the second preview. It was definitely in the second preview. And um, I'm getting a little ahead of the show starting, but I will tell you, yeah, um, it was in, and you know, I liked it much better knowing what happened, or knowing now knowing the plot, but I will say that I heard that they changed it after a certain amount of previews.

And by the time I got the cast album a couple months later, that was the first time I heard "Last Midnight," the song that placed it. And I thought "Last Midnight" was a much better song. Yeah, just it maybe wasn't as intricate and clever, but by the time we got there in the show, I just thought it was a better song for Bernadette, and it was just an easier song to listen to. Yeah, in my opinion. Um, but I know people are very fond of that original version. I mean, it was similar, it's basically did the same thing. Um so the show starts. I'm excited because I sort of felt that I had been a little tiny part of it. And I am sitting on the house left side, closest to like Cinderella's house when the curtain goes up and you see the three houses.

And some of my vivid memories are in whatever scene where the birds came down on the wires and she's calling them. One um fell, the wire got cut or broke. It fell, it bounced off her hair and landed in front of her. And I just I can only imagine what she must have been thinking because she had to know. I mean, it was like there's like a dead bird in front of her. I don't know what she did, I don't know where it went, but that happened, and it literally I remember it bouncing off of her big poofy hair. If it only had landed there, that would have been even better. She didn't do anything with that moment. She didn't do anything, you know. I mean, it was the second preview. I guess it was a lot going on. Yeah, and I mean she probably like didn't want to try out a bit. Yeah. Bernadette would have done something.

[18:31] Stephen Dolginoff: Exactly. So then we get to we're about to go, little Red's about to go to her grandmother's house, and you know, the set is moving, and I have to notice that the set isn't very green. It's I would say it's more brown. So I guess Lapine's got his way and it wasn't like bright green anymore. I mean, there was certainly green there, but I guess it was toned down. So something happens, and all of a sudden, from the back of the theater walks James Lapine in his street clothes with like a clipboard, like right on the stage, and he says, uh, sorry everybody, we're having problems with um grandmother's house, but we're gonna try to get it fixed and and get it working uh again, and then he just turns and walks off, which I had never seen anything like that before in a show where like someone like literally just like walks right out and just talk to the audience, you know.

And it was the second preview, and I think the audience probably ate it up. And a few minutes later, the show kept going, and um I don't know if they maybe didn't have the house, or if they did have the house and it was working, but whatever it was, they were able to get the show going. And we get to intermission, and I know that you have heard these stories, but people indeed left. People were saying, Well, what did you think? And I oh, I really liked it, and people were getting their coats, and you know, it was maybe 75 minutes act one, and you know, shows that short were rare back then. I mean, we've got tons of them now. But I could see that people might really think they had seen the whole thing, truly.

I of course knew that there was more because I knew what we had done at Westbeth, and I read the playbill. I mean, it was in the playbill, I mean, was no secret. So when they later added, I guess the narrator things like to be continued at the end of Act One, that was smart because they had to figure something out. And um, I also remember the ending where it's revealed that the narrator is the son of the baker and his wife grown up, and I thought that was really sweet and touching. And when they changed it and made him, you know, get fed to the giant. I I remember thinking that was kind of uh cornier, but I guess it was what they wanted to do, and that's that's you know what it is.

[21:00] Stephen Dolginoff: Um I will tell you that about six months later, I went to see the show again, and this was when Bernadette had left, and Phylicia Rashad had been announced to go in, but for one week in between, Betsy Joslin played the witch. And I knew Betsy Joslin had been Bernadette's understudy before, so I was really kind of interested to see what she would be like. And I under normal circumstances, I would have seen Phylicia Rashad, but something about the timing and the night, and I was with the people that wanted to go. So we saw Betsy Joslin. And she it was really interesting to see her because she was to me, and I'm sure she would disagree. To me, she was giving Bernadette's performance. But during her reveal, she had the exact same hair, but it was dark.

It was like black almost. But she was really, really good. And I was really impressed. And this is so the first this was the first time I saw "Last Midnight" performed and saw you know the change with the narrator. But other than that, it seemed to be exactly the same. Like any changes they made would have been really minor, um, from what I from what I'd remembered just from that second preview.

[22:11] Stephen Dolginoff: So do you remember the song "Second Midnight"? Not this, not the little short second midnight gone, you know, potatoes, whatever, but like the full like vocal, like seven-minute song. It is possible that that is one of the ones that we did in that those blocking exercises. It was one of the midnights gone and it was elaborate. If they sang it in the second preview, I think they might have cut it after the first preview, actually, but maybe I'm wrong. I mean, I just wonder if there was enough time to implement anything from Tuesday night to Wednesday afternoon. Maybe if it's just a simple like cut and there's no, you know, maybe they just said skip number 11, you know. It's exactly it's possible that it was there, it's possible that it wasn't, and it's possible that since you know it was something that I was familiar with, I don't know that I would have remembered that it had been shortened, you know.

[23:05] Stephen Dolginoff: Yeah. In other words, it would nothing, nothing jumped out at me as like being so different.

[23:10] Stephen Dolginoff: Um, the second time. Um I went a third time and then it's gonna be a fourth time, but the third time my friend the Bernadette Peters fanatic came to town and Bernadette Peters wasn't in it, but she at least wanted to see a show that Bernadette Peters had been in.

[23:27] Stephen Dolginoff: Yeah. And at this time, this was many months later and Betsy Jocelyn was back in it again. And I and I know it had to be Betsy Jocelyn because I never saw Felicia Rashad. I never saw Nancy Dusot, I never saw Ellen Foley. So it just had to have Betsy Jocelyn. Franz did do it for two weeks during Nancy Dusot's run. I would have definitely remembered that and this was definitely earlier.

[23:49] Stephen Dolginoff: So at this point Cynthia Sykes had replaced Joanna Gleason from LA Law. Yes I was very excited because I loved LA Law so we wanted to see her and for this performance the second time I was in the mezzanine the first time I was up front near Cinderella's house this time we were really close and every time that we did this we were getting tickets at TKTS that couldn't have been more than 25 dollars.

[24:14] Stephen Dolginoff: Yeah um and there it was always good seats too. So we were sitting up close and the one of my biggest memories of seeing Cynthia Nixon was everybody knows this from watching the video when Joanna Gleason is singing "Moments in the Woods" she's taken that wrap out of her the bud in her hair.

[24:31] Stephen Dolginoff: Yeah. And for so much of the song is her pinning it back on and wrapping it and getting the pins in I always marvel how she timed it out perfectly and was able to accomplish that while singing.

[24:43] Stephen Dolginoff: Well, Cynthia Sykes did it too. Cynthia texted it. And I remember thinking, wow, maybe it's not as hard as I think, but she did it perfectly. And I remember thinking, well, Joanna Gleason was really good. I mean, she was really good.

[24:59] Stephen Dolginoff: There's a reason she won the Tony. And there have been many other Baker's wives, uh, and they're all wonderful, but something about Joanna Gleason just was just special. And even young me realized that Cynthia Sykes, while very good, just didn't have that Joanna Gleason thing.

[25:18] Stephen Dolginoff: But you know, the role was probably so tailored for her. And anyway, she was she was still very good. And that's almost the end of my relationship to Into the Woods until May of 1989 when I find out that they're filming five performances, bringing back the members of the original cast that weren't there.

[25:39] Stephen Dolginoff: Now my friend the Bernadette Peters fanatic lives in New York, so I am gonna take her to see Bernadette Peters. How did I know about this? I read a blurb about it in Theater Week or somewhere. I do not remember it being a big deal.

[25:51] Stephen Dolginoff: I do not remember it um being advertised or publicized. Maybe it would have been in a New York Times ad. I didn't get the New York Times, but it was no big deal. We went to the first of the five performances, which was May 23rd, '89, and I got tickets on TKTS.

[26:12] Stephen Dolginoff: We were in the up in the mezzanine, but TKTS. James Lapine's came out before it and he explained that everything was gonna be the same except for the lighting. The lights were going to be brighter.

[26:26] Stephen Dolginoff: And I remembered thinking, oh god, is it gonna be like blinding or what? But to my eye, they didn't really look any different. And the other thing that he said was that Chuck Wagner, Rapunzel's Prince, right, wasn't able to make it in town.

[26:41] Stephen Dolginoff: So the current Rapunzel's Prince, Dean Butler, was going to be going on that night, which would mean that none of the footage of Dean Butler filmed that night or a group shot would be used because Chuck Wagner was going to be there, I assume, the next night.

[26:56] Stephen Dolginoff: But I was excited to see Dean Butler because he had been on a TV show called The Charmings, where he played Snow White's Prince. And so I thought it was kind of fun that he was going to be Rapunzel's.

[27:06] Stephen Dolginoff: That's right. I'm so happy you said that. I forgot about that. Yep. The Charmings where it was like Snow White and Prince Charming were magically transported into present-day suburbia with her with the wicked queen and the magic mirror played by Paul Winfield.

[27:21] Stephen Dolginoff: So Dean Butler, I guess, was perfect casting. He he he he knew how to play a prince. And it was, I remember being really exciting. It was fun to see, you know, Bernadette and Joanna Gleason back.

[27:32] Stephen Dolginoff: I'm not sure who else had left and come back. Um would have been Chuck Wagner. Um I remember an enthusiastic audience, but it didn't seem much different than just going to see Into the Woods.

[27:47] Stephen Dolginoff: And I had known that they had recorded Sunday in the Park with George, so I sort of understood what this was going to be like. So my friend left, having gotten to see Bernadette Peters after seeing Betsy Jocelyn, which was cool.

[28:06] Stephen Dolginoff: And, you know, I was thinking, you know, hopefully, you know, maybe my laughs and applause will make it into the into the tape, not with any of Rapunzel's Prince's scenes, but you know, then a few months later, you know, it aired on whatever it was, great performances, American Masters, PBS, and I and I watched it and it was really you know fun to see, you know, and I knew that you know there must have been some shots that I was there for.

[28:31] Stephen Dolginoff: But my the biggest takeaway I have, cutting all the way back to seeing the second preview. I remember leaving the second preview thinking, I'm not sure I like this.

[28:44] Stephen Dolginoff: I didn't leave the theater thinking, wow, a masterpiece. And I don't know why, because by the time I was look, I wouldn't have gone back to see it again if I if I if I didn't find something about it, you know, now it's one of my favorites and a classic, and you know, no need me to say that.

[29:06] Stephen Dolginoff: But that was my impression after the first preview, which again, despite the bird falling on Cinderella, and despite the the house and despite Boom Crunch, it was basically the show, and with you know, incredible talent.

[29:20] Stephen Dolginoff: And I wish I could go back in time and ask myself why, because I don't remember why, but I remember thinking that. And I remember people asking, What did you think of the woods? We were coming to New York, what should we see?

[29:33] Stephen Dolginoff: I didn't recommend Into the Woods, you know. I don't know why. It's I'll see Phantom, you know, you'll I'm sure you'll like that better. Maybe Into the Woods was cerebral and you know, made you think, and maybe that wasn't the place that I was in, you know, in my in my young college aged years, but um, it was very exciting.

[29:53] Stephen Dolginoff: And then when we caught to 2005, when my musical Thrill Me is playing off Broadway, the day after art review in the New York Times, Sondheim himself came to see my show.

[30:05] Stephen Dolginoff: And I got to sit in the audience and watch Sondheim watch my work, and that was very exciting. And that, my friend, is my Into the Woods story.

[30:17] Ben Rimalower: I have questions. First of all, what did Sondheim say about Thrill Me?

[30:22] Stephen Dolginoff: I will never know.

[30:23] Ben Rimalower: You didn't talk to him?

[30:25] Stephen Dolginoff: I didn't talk.

[30:26] Ben Rimalower: Oh, I was terrified.

[30:27] Stephen Dolginoff: I I terrified to talk to him.

[30:30] Ben Rimalower: You ever talked to him?

[30:31] Stephen Dolginoff: I hope he liked it more than you liked Into the Woods.

[30:34] Ben Rimalower: I hope so.

[30:35] Stephen Dolginoff: Well, I would have liked Into the Woods.

[30:37] Ben Rimalower: So it's but it sounds like you're saying that you are saying you're not loving Into the Woods was about you and not any kind of deficiency of Into the Woods.

[30:46] Stephen Dolginoff: It had to have been because it was it was the show.

[30:51] Stephen Dolginoff: I I I know I liked it better as I saw it more, but it had to have been me.

[30:56] Stephen Dolginoff: I mean, because it was Into the Woods.

[30:58] Ben Rimalower: I mean, well, there are legitimate criticisms of Into the Woods.

[31:01] Stephen Dolginoff: I mean, have you read Frank Rich's review recently?

[31:04] Ben Rimalower: No.

[31:05] Stephen Dolginoff: No, I haven't.

[31:06] Ben Rimalower: Go back and read Frank Rich's original review of the show.

[31:09] Stephen Dolginoff: It's quite negative, despite him being like a huge, you know, Sondheim nerd and a Sunday in the Park with George Defender to the death.

[31:18] Stephen Dolginoff: But um he's very critical. Um, you know, I he talks a lot about how there's a confusion, whether it's about the community, no one is alone themes, or about the um parents and children relationships and how the stuff with the the witch and Rapunzel was dealt with better in Gypsy than it is in Into the Woods.

[31:40] Ben Rimalower: And um and something I've thought about the show is just that there's these sort of um you know from no more to no one is alone to children will listen it's a lot of kind of inspirational ballads you know stating themes one after the other um and uh so I I'm I'm I'm curious whether that it's interesting to me that you because I kind of feel the way you do in the sense that um I the as more and more time goes on I've just found myself loving the show and so that I've sort of like put aside any criticism I have for it.

[32:20] Stephen Dolginoff: I mean this recent revival uh with the City Center production when I'd seen it at City Center moved to Broadway and then I went to see it on Broadway with each of the even temporary cast replacements the Andy Carls and the Cheyenne Jacksons and the Christa Rodriguez not to mention you know uh partly because I was working on this podcast already so I was just really deep in the into the into the woods.

[32:43] Stephen Dolginoff: Um right but I found myself absolutely enjoying every minute of it every time so it's you know it's one thing to think this is a problem the way this show works but when you're having a good time you you know so over over time I've just given into that but um but I don't know that Frank Rich was wrong either and um it's it's interesting to me that you kind of put aside your initial feelings I remember also it was not a big hit.

[33:13] Stephen Dolginoff: I mean it was not a f at all it was a success but it wasn't a giant hit. I could get tickets to it at TKTS any night I wanted to the filming the second preview you know any other night um you know they installed that giant inflatable boot over the theater for a reason to attract people I remember when that went up and that was really that was fun to have up there um it was so impressive looking and you know it um it was certainly something that it was special but they did that because they needed to they didn't do it because it would be cool they had to do it and you know I think you know as you're telling me what Frank Rich said I it's it's sort of coming back to me.

[33:54] Stephen Dolginoff: I do think I remember reading that and probably agreeing a bit but I guess just eventually by the time the video came out and that video obviously influenced a generation if not three of young theater people you know that grew up watching it you know I think by then um you know it was just sort of accepted that that's what it was um I I remembered feeling you know now that we're talking about it it's jogging some of my memory I remember jumping back to Sunday in the Park with George I remember thinking if I had left Sunday in the Park with George after act one that would have been okay you know because at 16 it was very hard for me to connect to children not children and art and move on and all of that.

[34:49] Stephen Dolginoff: I appreciate it today. And while I wouldn't have wanted to leave Into the Woods after part one, I remember, you know, I felt like the dark of act two was surprising and different, and you know, that's probably what I was responding to and didn't really like. And again, I have memories of definitely telling people not to see it. I remember my aunt and uncle were coming to town, and my uncle was a lawyer, and they would come in every year with a legal convention, and every year the convention would buy tickets to that year's hot show. They were coming to town, and we were making arrangements; we were gonna go out to dinner, and I said, "What show are you seeing?" And they said, "Oh, I can't remember the name of it."

I can't remember the name of it. And I said, "Well, you're gonna like anything unless it's Into the Woods." And my aunt looked at the ticket and said, "It's Into the Woods." And I was like, "Oh, oh, that's... I didn't mean that! I didn't mean that! I was joking! I don't know what I said," but I remembered saying that. But again, I don't remember why, because now I love it. So though that was my impression, you know, and again, having done that thing at the Westbeth with Lapine's, it's so close to my heart, and I'm glad you're giving me the opportunity to tell the story because sometimes I don't even believe it happened myself, but it was exciting. But now would you tell the same aunt and uncle to see Into the Woods? Absolutely, absolutely. You know, I mean, it's an established classic now.

[36:25] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I mean, it obviously is. You know, there's a reason that it's, you know, during the run of Phantom, it's been back in New York five times or, you know, twice on Broadway.

[36:36] Stephen Dolginoff: Yeah, there was that off-Broadway little one; there was the big one at the park, yeah, beautiful wood set. You know, and I always go and see it, and I always enjoy it. Which has been your favorite?

[36:49] Stephen Dolginoff: I would say, you know, despite those earlier reservations, I would say nothing compares to the original, but I would say that about just about anything. Um, my second favorite would have to be the one in the park because it was just so... Donna Murphy as the Witch was so incredible, and during her death scene or whatever it was, when she was being pulled back into the earth, she was literally being pulled back into the earth, what looked like was really the earth, and it was so stunning. I will never forget that.

[37:23] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, this is fantastic, and it was so beautiful. But there, you know, that is a show that it would have made no sense to transfer that to Broadway. It was so special because you were in the park; you were sort of in the woods.

[37:36] Stephen Dolginoff: Um, okay, and then has there been a performance in any of the revivals that you felt was even better than the original?

[37:48] Stephen Dolginoff: I would say the character of Little Red Riding Hood keeps popping more as the years go on. You know, I mean, she was nominated for a Tony this year, right? Um, and she was just such a standout in a way that I don't remember it ever being before. I mean, obviously, it's a great role, and it was great originally, but I don't know that, uh, Danielle Ferland was her name. I don't know that it... no one thought, "Oh my God, why wasn't she nominated for a Tony?" That's robbery, you know.

[38:27] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, no, I mean, no, no, not no offense to her at all. It's just that it didn't... the role didn't seem skewed for that, you know.

[38:35] Stephen Dolginoff: And now, whenever I see it, I feel like Little Red could be the star of the show sometimes. Yeah, depending on how it sort of gets skewed. Sometimes you feel like it's a very Cinderella-heavy show; sometimes it's like a Witch show. You know, I felt almost like the recent Broadway one when, you know, Little Red was giving everybody a run for her money. So some people might think that was an imbalance about that, but I like her. Um, maybe, but you know, it's always an ensemble, but you know, but like everybody in it is always good. It's a show. I mean, one of the jokes I said when I went and saw it, like, I feel like I could get up there and do it. You know, I feel like almost anybody could because when they were doing all the recasting and, you know, like you said, Cheyenne Jackson here for a couple weeks and Andy Carl, the staging was so simple that just about anyone could get up there and do that show because so many of us kind of know it already.

[39:29] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, you know, so many of us. Do you still see yourself as a Jack?

[39:29] Stephen Dolginoff: Once I saw it for real, I was like, "Yeah, I was lucky that I got to pin the word Jack on me once because that would have been my only opportunity to do it." No, I think if I had... I would... well, I'm not good enough to be in it at all, but like I would probably be like a Baker type, you know? No one would ever give me that part, but I'm closer to that, I guess.

[39:58] Ben Rimalower: And do you still feel ownership? Like when you see the revival or when you saw the movie, do you feel like, "I was part of the development of this show a little bit?" You know, and again, I know not to overinflate it at all because it was just so he could try out some dance numbers or movement, uh, staging. Yeah, you know, I don't think anything that I did or we did influenced anything other than give him the opportunity. And literally anyone who answered that ad would have been there. I was just lucky that I got to do it. But that said, it was still an experience, and I was there, and I got to hear about the green set, and I got to hear "Giants in the Sky" for the first time, and I got to, you know, hear "Boom Crunch," and you know, I was part... how many people were part of the staging of "Boom Crunch" after that first or second preview?

No one ever again. So yeah, you know, it was really fun, and for a year before it opened on Broadway, I kind of knew some of Into the Woods that me, my friend, and six other people knew, you know, or I guess people that had seen the workshop, but it was exciting.

[39:58] Ben Rimalower: Do you remember who any of those people were? Did you guys didn't like have a weekly, like, you know, to catch up?

[39:58] Stephen Dolginoff: No, you know, one was, like I said, a friend of mine, but I, you know, it's her story to tell, and I... no one else I knew, and like I said, they seemed older than us. And like I said, I feel like they were friends of somebody, like maybe not enough people called, so Ira Weitzman asked his secretary or assistant if her husband could come, something like that. I don't really know, but they were all very nice, as nice as they could be. And you know, as you know, who knew what this show was gonna be, you know, and Sondheim was certainly on another level then, but not quite the level that he would be probably right after Into the Woods. You know, he was still just a guy coming in in his shirt to watch rehearsal and stand there and not scrutinize and just, you know, he wasn't overly friendly to anybody, but he wasn't standoffish at all. And it was a great, a great experience.

[42:13] Stephen Dolginoff: And so, you know, yes, when I see the movie, that's always in the back of my mind when I go to see it off-Broadway or on Broadway, the revival. That's always the first thing that comes to my mind. And that, you know, it's a story that should be told, you know, and it's something that I'd never heard it mentioned before. I bought Paul Ford's book that came out within the past couple of years, just hoping that maybe somehow there would be a passing reference to it when he was talking about putting Into the Woods together, and there wasn't. Um, a friend of mine said that maybe Ira Weitzman mentioned it on your podcast. So somebody did mention that there were some NYU students, but it's also been confused.

It's glad to get the clarity from you because I also know there were, um, there were some people say there was backers auditions; other people say that didn't happen. But some people have also... there also were like sort of, um, gala events where people would perform some of the songs when it was still in development. Supposedly there were auditions for choreographers where the choreographers would put stuff on people, maybe NYU students, maybe people that were actually involved in the cast. I've heard sort of contrasting things. So it's good to get a solid version of one of those things from you.

[43:37] Stephen Dolginoff: Yeah. Yeah, this was definitely... this just might have been Lapine's trying to figure out, do we need a choreographer, or can I do it for myself? You know, it could have been like that, but there was definitely no choreographer. It was definitely him doing it, and it was definitely... we performed for nobody. It didn't like culminate in a performance.

[43:58] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[43:58] Stephen Dolginoff: No, no, no. It's just working.

[44:00] Ben Rimalower: Blocking exercises.

[44:01] Stephen Dolginoff: Blocking exercises. Well, he must have done great because he went off to San Diego with no choreographer. So you guys were better blockers than the, uh, cast at the Old Globe, as far as Lapine's was concerned.

[44:15] Stephen Dolginoff: I guess if that's the case, I guess we must have been able to pick up what he was saying.

[44:22] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[44:22] Stephen Dolginoff: So he must have felt like he could get it across well. He must have felt comfortable enough to do it. And then, you know, by the time I saw it, I know it had a choreographer eventually, right?

[44:35] Stephen Dolginoff: It again, that wasn't vastly different than what we had done. It all sort of rang a bell to me. Maybe it had a little bit more dance as opposed to movement. I remember we did something that was almost like going around a Maypole, sort of, which I think was for "Forever After." I know we did that, so that would have been Lapine's's idea if that ended up in it. So yeah, but no, that was one of the things they did with NYU students.

[45:05] Ben Rimalower: So well, thank you so much, Stephen. It is absolutely wonderful to chat with you and get this rare story.

[45:14] Stephen Dolginoff: Well, this was so much fun. Thank you, like I said, for giving me the opportunity because now hopefully it'll maybe inspire other people that were there to come and tell what they remember.

[45:25] Ben Rimalower: If you're listening, we want your stories.

[45:28] Stephen Dolginoff: Yes, absolutely.

[45:29] Ben Rimalower: Thank you, Stephen.

[45:35] Ben Rimalower: Thank you for listening to Giants in the Sky. How Sondheim and Lapine's went Into the Woods on the Broadway Podcast Network. Look out for episode 33 with Colleen Fitzpatrick, Broadway understudy.