This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Ben Rimalower: Broadway Podcast Network presents Giants in the Sky: How Sondheim and Lapine Went Into the Woods.

[0:07] Ben Rimalower: With me, Ben Rimalower.

[0:09] Ben Rimalower: Today's guest, Ben Wright, the original Jack.

[0:13] Ben Rimalower: Once upon a time.

[0:20] Ben Rimalower: Ben Wright originated the role of Jack in Into the Woods at the Old Globe in San Diego and recreated it in the original Broadway cast. He also originated the role of Wayne Freik in the Broadway stage adaptation of Rogers and Hammerstein's State Fair. He also appeared opposite Charlene Woodard and future Into the Woods co-star Danielle Ferland in George C. Wolfe's Paradise at Playwrights Horizons. More recently, he co-founded Biddy and Bo's Coffee with 20 locations across 12 states, employing over 400 people with intellectual and developmental disabilities.

[1:08] Ben Rimalower: And I'm sure he's a common name that comes up in New York City when it comes to the theater world. But you know, I had done a show at Playwrights Horizons when Andre Bishop and Ira were there called Paradise, the same show that where Danielle and I met each other. And we played brother and sister. And that was a short-lived, intentionally short-lived show, just a limited engagement. But I went back to high school in Indiana, right, which is where I grew up, and I get a call from Ira about this show, this Sondheim show that is being done. And of course, my mother being the theater lover that she was, she's since passed away, but she, you know, all the bells were going off, right? All the good feels were happening, and of course, you know, I wasn't really a theater junkie as a kid.

I just kind of grew up doing theater, like from age seven was the first time I hit a community theater stage, and I think I lost count after I'd done 25 separate productions of shows, you know, over the years. But anyway, but that's how I learned about it. I recalled and said, hey, you know, we're looking for somebody. And is that story right though? I get that confused with Paradise, but I'm pretty sure that that's how it happened. And they just remembered me from that and called me up and I auditioned. And I think Steven and James were in the room on that first audition, if memory serves, because I think I only auditioned one time. And this was for the production at the Old Globe in San Diego.

[2:46] Ben Wright: That's exactly right.

[2:48] Ben Rimalower: And did you, unlike with Paradise, did you have a sense with this that this was a sort of pre-Broadway, this could be your big break, you know?

[2:58] Ben Wright: Yeah, I guess I did. You know, the names associated with it were just unbelievable. So I think that that assumption was kind of a given. Oddly for me, you know, I was not fully aware of the rarefied air in which I was being pulled into, yeah. And all I could really think about was where am I gonna go to college? You know, instead of what is afoot here. But yeah, I think there was a notion that, yeah, this is gonna go, and I remember being out in San Diego. James had asked me and my mother to go to lunch there in Balboa Park, and he said the show's going to Broadway, and we'd like you to come too. Wow. And I'll never forget that.

[3:48] Ben Rimalower: Amazing. So just backing up a little. So you got you rehearsed that production in New York, though, in the village, I think, at West.

[3:57] Ben Wright: West Beth Theater, yep, theater complex, sure did.

[4:00] Ben Rimalower: And what do you remember about that process?

[4:06] Ben Wright: It was interesting. It was a lot of folks really trying to figure out what the heck we were doing, like what the show was, right? I mean, as you know, I don't need to explain to you what the context of the show is, but you know that that's an unusual thing to do a live action like that. And I think that there was a lot of excitement in the room and a lot of anxious anticipation in the room, everybody wanting to get it right, I think, and do their very best. And it was, you know, it was a weird time because I was just a kid in high school from Indiana and just sort of pulled up and plopped down in New York City and you know, I was a very lucky guy. I mean, I, you know, I being on Broadway, having a professional theater career was not necessarily something that I aspired to do.

It was, it sort of happened to me. I always like to say, you know, if my parents had put a football in my hand, maybe I would have been playing professional football. You know, I mean I just, from age seven, I mean I did theater shows and I sang in a men and boys choir three times a week from age nine to fourteen, and when you're singing sacred music like that, you really learn how to sing. I mean, there's harmonies just come naturally. I can sing any part here, anything. Not because I read music really well, but just because when I see that black marking on the page, I know what note to sing. And if it, and wherever it is on there with sharps or flats or whatever, I know what to sing. But I couldn't sit down and play the piano.

No way. Right. Anyway, you didn't ask me that, but well that's interesting. That's very interesting. People have said similar things about classical music in regards to Sondheim. That training was so valuable in singing this rich music that he wrote for this show.

[6:12] Ben Rimalower: And would you say so, what grade were you in when you were rehearsing that San Diego project?

[6:21] Ben Wright: Right, right. So I think that was my senior year of high school, if memory serves, because I graduated high school in May of eighty-seven. The show I literally graduated, spent a few months at home and moved to New York City and we opened in November of eighty-seven.

[6:37] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[6:38] Ben Wright: Yeah.

[6:39] Ben Rimalower: So that was your college.

[6:41] Ben Wright: Yeah, right, right. And I went to NYU as best I could doing eight shows a week, right from the beginning.

[6:45] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[6:47] Ben Wright: Right out of the gate.

[6:48] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[6:48] Ben Wright: I just, I was not about not to go to college. That's just something that I wanted to do, and I was in their Gallatin division, which you might be familiar with. It's kind of for folks who are working. Studying philosophy, because that's what I wanted to do.

[7:04] Ben Rimalower: Um, and in any event, what was your question?

[7:10] Ben Rimalower: So okay, so San Diego, everyone, there's a lot of pressure figuring out exactly what this show is, which it's hard for us to maybe nowadays quite appreciate that because the show seems so confident in itself and that tone, but I understand that that was still something that was coming together, even if maybe James and Steven had more clear ideas in their head that there were things being experimented with and a lot of material coming in and going out, and I think even maybe you had a different version of Giants in the Sky at that point.

[7:52] Ben Wright: I think I did, and the part that I remember that I didn't have and then had was the very end, right? They're big tall, terrible, awesome scary, wonderful giants, and that was not there originally. I don't think, I think I'm right about that. Somebody needs to fact check me on that, but that was not there, and I think Steve or James together thought it needed that sort of button. And I remember a funny thing, James said after we sort of laid that down and nailed that, and that's in fact what they wanted. I had to dig down deep to hit that note. You know, my voice just didn't necessarily want to go up there and hit that the way I've heard some people hit it since then. But in any event, he said, you know, can you do like a backflip?

I said, no, I can't do a backflip, you know. And it was just funny to me. He's probably thinking, well, he's an actor, right? He's an actor, bringing guilt. He probably juggles too, you know. I don't know. But I, you know, I was like, hey, you know, I'm a guy from Indiana who evidently can sing fairly well. Acting is up to the viewer, certainly not a dancer, never claimed to be one, but in any event, I'll never forget that. Can you do a backflip?

[9:05] Ben Rimalower: And sorry, but no.

[9:09] Ben Rimalower: That's so funny to hear you say that about the high note because I think for fans of the show, it's just a really iconic vocal powerhouse moment from you that everyone remembers so well, you know, is one of the highlights of the show.

[9:24] Ben Wright: Well, it's very kind. You know, I would say to you that, you know, we had done that show almost, well, not two years at the time of the taping, but I'd done it hundreds of times, right? So I had a lot of time to get my voice to the point where I could just do that note. But in the early going, it was like, you want me to do what? But I will tell you interestingly, about back to the sacred music just for one second. I'll tell you one of the things that I think helped me a lot was breath control. You know, that song, you've gotta be able to breathe, I think, properly to sing that song properly. And I just remember being a boy chorister and learning how to sing and sustain these phrases and conserve your breath and give it the power and the push and the pull that it needs. And I think that was very helpful for me, at least.

[10:17] Ben Rimalower: In those, I think you said 25 shows that you had done back in Indiana before Into the Woods, before Paradise, were there any Sondheim shows in that mix?

[10:31] Ben Wright: Great question. My instinct is no, not one. Not one. And you know, I'm one of those people who is very reluctant to get into any kind of trivia with musical theater because I always lose because I just don't, I just don't know my musical. I know it fairly well, but not like a lot of people know, right? Not like Bobby, you're probably an encyclopedia about it, but I'm certainly an Into the Woods encyclopedia.

[11:00] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah, right, right, right.

[11:02] Ben Wright: But no, I don't think so. You know, I did just a lot of community theater shows and some tours and you know, even things like a mall on the night visitors, you know, John Carlo Menotti's, I did that wow three different iterations of that at Indiana University, you know, at the Mac Center down there and toured with that troupe and stuff like that. But one of the most interesting shows I did was it was called, it was before Big River came out. It was called Huckin' Jim.

[11:28] Ben Rimalower: Oh wow.

[11:30] Ben Wright: And it was written by, well it was directed by Josh Logan. Remember Josh?

[11:35] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, of course.

[11:36] Ben Wright: Back when he was getting up there. But he was friends. I mean, he directed the original South Pacific, I think, in like 1942 or something. I mean, that's, I think 45, yeah.

[11:49] Ben Wright: So he wrote this show or at least directed it, and a friend of mine, a friend of my mom's, Bruce Pomahack. I don't know if you know Bruce Pomahack, but he was sort of the archivist for the Rogers and Hammerstein Library. Good friends with Ted Chapin and in any event, I think he did the music for it, at least the musical direction, maybe wrote some of the music for it. But that was an interesting show. But it turned out that they did that in Indianapolis at Civic Theater there, and I think Fade In, Fade Out, Big River's the one that made it to Broadway, not that one. But ironically, Bruce is the one who I ended up living with when I did the whole run of Into the Woods, lived there in the actors' building at 10th and 43rd.

[12:31] Ben Rimalower: I'm surprised that you actually didn't do Big River because it seems like you were the right age and type and you know, certainly had the chops for it at that exact time. I mean, how was it that you wound up doing Paradise in New York?

[12:45] Ben Wright: Was that your first New York show?

[12:47] Ben Wright: It was.

[12:48] Ben Rimalower: It was.

[12:48] Ben Wright: So it again goes back to Ira. You know, what happened was Nancy Carson, who's a, I don't know if I've been out of touch with her for many decades, but she was like a young person's agent, right? Nancy Carson, Carson Adler agency, I think it was called. Anyway, she came to Indianapolis scouting for talent and I, you know, I think paid 50 bucks or something, and I sang up, you know, eight bars of something and did a little commercial and you know, all these little things. And literally like 10 days later, she calls and says, you know, Playwrights Horizons is looking for a 16-year-old redhead that can sing. And I was 15, I had red hair, you wouldn't know it now, but I had red hair, and evidently I could sing. So we flew up. I'm very competitive. I love to compete no matter what, and I went up and auditioned, and darned if I didn't get the part.

[13:43] Ben Rimalower: And so, but did you, when you were doing Paradise, were you hanging out in town long enough to see shows to see Big River and think, oh, I could do that, or I could be in, you know, I don't try to think of what the other shows of that era that had young people's roles were.

[14:01] Ben Wright: Yeah, if memory serves, I auditioned for Big River. I remember auditioning for that, and I can't remember who I auditioned for. I think I went to somebody's house even with my mom and auditioned. And I loved the music. I remember seeing that show and watching that show. And just, I who was it? Ron Richardson played Jim. I mean, that guy's voice, the timbre in his voice, the richness of his voice was just staggering to me. I just couldn't, I could listen to it 24/7. So yeah, I mean, you know, there were some thoughts of being in some things and seeing some things, but you know, I tell you, Ben, I was, part of me wishes I could do it all over again because I didn't know then what I know now. You know, I was too young, I think. I think it happened to me very quickly. I didn't have to work myself up through the ranks, unless you consider doing shows from age seven every day of your life, not putting in your time.

[15:07] Ben Wright: But you know what I mean. I didn't know different kinds of ranks, yeah. I didn't have to be a few years. Yeah, I didn't have to do cattle calls and casting and I just like went up for my first audition ever and got it.

[15:20] Ben Wright: Yeah, and then the first movie I auditioned for was an Oliver Stone film called Born on the Fourth of July.

[15:26] Ben Wright: First major film I've ever auditioned for. Got it. Right. NBC movie of the week, you know, when I moved out to California, first thing I auditioned for in LA, got the role, right? I mean, it just all such good fortune that I really knew it was good fortune, but it didn't land in my soul like it does now.

[15:51] Ben Rimalower: Yes, I like hearing you say good fortune. I think Jack says that. So was all of that after NYU going to LA and doing Born on the Fourth of July?

[15:53] Ben Wright: It was, yeah, yeah. I spent about a year and a half at NYU and it was just kind of too hard. Yeah, and trying to do the studying that I wanted to do. And when the show closed, um, so you left NYU before you left Into the Woods.

[16:20] Ben Wright: Correct. And did you stay with Into the Woods the entire run?

[16:24] Ben Wright: Except for about six weeks. And my understudy Jeff Blumencrans.

[16:29] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[16:29] Ben Wright: Uh did the role and I heard he was terrific. I never got to see him do it. Um, but yes, I was in the Philippines, uh shooting Born on the Fourth of July for...

[16:34] Ben Rimalower: Oh cool.

[16:40] Ben Wright: Yeah.

[16:41] Ben Rimalower: Well, certainly, I mean, at least people my age, we that was a major movie. We all remember that with Tom Cruise and Gary Sinise and um, yeah.

[16:50] Ben Wright: Very powerful. Um, I've gotta go back and find you in that movie now.

[16:54] Ben Wright: Uh good luck. It's like uh where's Waldo. So you know if you find me, let me know. I wanna see it.

[17:01] Ben Rimalower: So uh okay, so uh you do Into the Woods, you have lunch in Balboa Park with James Lapine. He says we want you to go to Broadway. How exciting. Did he at that point know there was going to be this uh workshop the following summer?

[17:16] Ben Wright: I don't recall if I knew that ahead of time or not. Um, I kind of think it came out fairly quickly that that in fact was gonna be the deal.

[17:27] Ben Wright: Yeah. A workshop and then if all that all goes well, then we'll... and that even the workshop was, you know, I guess uh seven months or six months or so after you closed in San Diego. Did you go home to Indiana or was there any time in New York in between?

[17:42] Ben Wright: No, I went home to Indiana.

[17:44] Ben Wright: I graduated high school.

[17:45] Ben Wright: Yeah.

[17:46] Ben Wright: And um, you know, and got prepared to move to New York. I mean, that's pretty cool to be at your high school graduation. Everybody else is like going to college or getting a job or don't know what they're doing, and you're going to open on Broadway.

[18:01] Ben Wright: Uh yeah, it was pretty spectacular, quite frankly. Yeah, it really really was. I was very proud to be a part of that production.

[18:10] Ben Rimalower: And your mother must have been so proud.

[18:12] Ben Wright: Um, and NYU. You weren't even doing it uh one at a time.

[18:16] Ben Rimalower: All right. But so now let me ask you because I'm so curious about that summer workshop. And uh luckily, you know, people like you and Danielle, who were uh young at the time, uh I think have clearer memories than some of the people who, you know, so much time has gone by.

[18:36] Ben Rimalower: And also because you were young, I think the experiences were imprinted in a different way because everything was, you know, like a first for you. So what can you tell me about that workshop?

[18:47] Ben Wright: Yeah. Well, I remember a couple of things fairly vividly. I think we did that workshop at 890 Broadway at one of the Serbs, and I just loved that building, right? I mean, I just remember like just interesting little things that would happen, like you know, the manned elevator opening and stepping in and looking to my left, and there's Mikhail Baryshnikov going up, you know, to his rehearsal, whatever he was doing, you know, and it's just wonderful, neat little things like that that would happen.

[19:22] Ben Wright: Um, but I remember that being a wonderful time. Um, I remember uh Betty Buckley was the witch if I'm right about my timing she was the witch and the way I remember the story I don't want to um throw anybody under the bus here but I remember she brought her dog to rehearsal and the story that I heard and I may be wrong about this but this is how I vividly remember it we took a break and Betty asked James to walk her dog.

[19:57] Ben Wright: Oh Ben, the next thing I know James comes back upstairs and Betty Buckley doesn't he's being replaced. Now I may have totally made that up but that is how I remember it that that uh it was just sort of the straw that broke the camel's back uh you know that made maybe you I may be all wet on that but that is how Ben Wright remembers that what's hilarious.

[20:22] Ben Rimalower: I mean I've heard a lot of different stories I'm very hard trying very hard to talk to Betty herself and get her version of it.

[20:31] Ben Rimalower: But that's interesting. I mean so as you recall she did not complete the workshop?

[20:32] Ben Wright: That's what I recall, yeah. I that she didn't she didn't complete it. Like all of a sudden she was out and I feel like yeah I may be wrong about that because I remember I was at Kings Island just riding rides uh before the workshop started yeah wait a minute and I remember getting a call from my agent saying that Bernadette Peters was gonna take that role.

[20:59] Ben Wright: So that doesn't make sense what I'm saying.

[21:02] Ben Wright: So much youthful memory, Ben.

[21:04] Ben Wright: I well, I I'm you know, I because I know the workshop was very, very close to Broadway. Like I think the workshop was June or July, possibly even into August.

[21:15] Ben Wright: Yeah. And you had maybe like a month off before you started Broadway rehearsals.

[21:20] Ben Wright: Yeah. And then some people have talked about a reading at a townhouse before Broadway rehearsals started, which was with the Broadway cast, uh, including Bernadette, and that that was the first time people uh were most people became aware that Bernadette was now playing the witch, or even that Betty was not.

[21:43] Ben Wright: Yeah.

[21:44] Ben Wright: Um, but I've generally heard that Betty had completed, I guess there was two or three invited presentations of the workshop, and that Betty had gotten to the end of those.

[21:57] Ben Wright: Yeah, she may have. I just I just remember that I can see it my in I can see it happening in in the studio up there.

[22:05] Ben Rimalower: But maybe...

[22:05] Ben Wright: Well, I've definitely heard other people talk about her dog.

[22:10] Ben Rimalower: Have you really?

[22:10] Ben Wright: You're not you're not hallucinating uh a pet where there was none.

[22:15] Ben Wright: Yeah. Listen, I have no beef with Betty. You know, first of all, dogs need to be walked. You've just got to make sure you ask the right person to walk your dog.

[22:20] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[22:21] Ben Wright: A, and B, you know, man, could that woman can sing? She's that the songs for the w oh my gosh.

[22:29] Ben Wright: I mean breathtaking the way that her vocal cords. Unbelievable.

[22:34] Ben Wright: Unbelievable.

[22:37] Ben Wright: Yeah, I mean, one of the things I find most intriguing about the stories about Betty is just what my, I mean, as fabulous, of course, as Bernadette was.

[22:48] Ben Wright: I mean, such an iconic performance that she gave. But when I I just would give anything to have heard Betty singing uh any of those songs, you know, I guess Betty didn't have Last Midnight.

[22:59] Ben Wright: She had um Boom Crunch in place of that. But I believe she did have um the ballad Stay With Me, which is you know, just so beautiful.

[23:10] Ben Wright: That's the one that I remember her singing that was just um it was just electrifying. Just absolutely the power in her voice when she sang that particular song was jaw dropping, uh to me at least.

[23:25] Ben Wright: And uh, and of course Bernadette too, that brought her her unique that only Bernadette can do, but oh my gosh.

[23:34] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[23:35] Ben Rimalower: Do you remember anything else about Betty's performance? I'm so curious uh how it would have been different in terms of the acting or or any other aspect.

[23:45] Ben Wright: Yeah, you know, I don't remember much about it.

[23:47] Ben Wright: Um I was sort of in my own little 17-year-old world, you know.

[23:51] Ben Wright: Um I just remember her seeming very professional, uh, very down to business, um, very no nonsense.

[24:00] Ben Wright: I don't remember a lot of chit chat, you know. I think she was friendly enough to me uh and everybody else, but it was just that voice is what I remember, you know.

[24:09] Ben Wright: Because we were in different things. I remember Bernadette used to wear like a cape with like I think she had like an piece of elastic that kind of bent her over a little bit that's connected to her leg or to her ankle to kind of get that hunch that she was trying to develop for the role.

[24:23] Ben Rimalower: And um at least that's again, that's what I remember, but was there anything about uh your physicality or movement that you remember being uh working with either independently or that you were directed to do sort of you know, mm to create this Jack character?

[24:44] Ben Wright: Yeah, yeah. The quick answer is no. I don't remember. Uh anybody's, you know, James or anyone else or Laura saying this do that.

[24:54] Ben Wright: Um I kind of felt like they just sort of left me alone. You know, they just kind of let me bring what I brought to it, uh, whatever I was.

[25:01] Ben Wright: And uh, you know, I never tried to play Jack like a dope.

[25:07] Ben Wright: Yeah. You know, I never, you know, like uh like he was uh dim-witted in any way.

[25:13] Ben Wright: I just I just tried to play him sincerely and try not to goof him up too much, right?

[25:20] Ben Wright: I just I don't know, that just didn't resonate with me.

[25:24] Ben Wright: Yeah. See, he seemed to just be kind of a sheltered kid that wanted to be a man and get out into the world and you know, and earn his stripes, right?

[25:36] Ben Wright: And he wasn't permitted to do it.

[25:38] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[25:39] Ben Rimalower: Well, speaking of him being sheltered, of course, you were working with the late great uh Barbara Brynn as your mother.

[25:47] Ben Rimalower: And uh the two of you seem to have a great uh dynamic watching on the video. What do you remember about working with her?

[25:55] Ben Wright: Just the sweetest, nicest, kindest, most professional actress that I've ever met. Uh just consummate professional, um, always on time.

[26:09] Ben Wright: All yeah, I mean, just checks all the boxes, right?

[26:12] Ben Wright: And um I always thought it was funny that we were sort of uh funny, ha haha funny, but just it was an interesting casting choice that I was my age and she was her age, and she was my mother, and just I loved that sort of layer to it, that sort of questioning of you know of uh of the relationship there.

[26:34] Ben Rimalower: Um but Barbara was just um...

[26:34] Ben Rimalower: You mean that you mean that she was presumably too old to actually be your mother.

[26:42] Ben Wright: Right.

[26:43] Ben Wright: Yeah.

[26:43] Ben Wright: She was like a grandmother's age and you were still, you know, basically a kid.

[26:47] Ben Wright: Right, right.

[26:48] Ben Wright: And she was such a lovely diminutive uh person, you're right in stature, right?

[26:54] Ben Wright: She I don't know how tall she was, but I bet she was 4'11, something like that.

[26:58] Ben Wright: She was a very diminutive person.

[27:00] Ben Wright: And here I am, you know, like six feet, just felt like I was towering over her.

[27:05] Ben Wright: And it just it was it was there's some there was some visual comedy in that, I think.

[27:09] Ben Rimalower: That's funny that you're six feet tall.

[27:11] Ben Rimalower: You know, in the video, I think partly the c they did such a good job, and Hold Ward's costuming of Jack is so like boyish.

[27:21] Ben Rimalower: I mean, it's almost like a Pinocchio or something.

[27:23] Ben Rimalower: Like I wouldn't have guessed you were as tall as six feet.

[27:26] Ben Wright: That's so interesting.

[27:27] Ben Wright: That's funny you say that because most people when they s when they talk to me about that role and they say, Oh my gosh, I thought you were really tall. I thought you were like six four.

[27:37] Ben Wright: And when I say I'm six feet, that's if I really stand up as right.

[27:41] Ben Rimalower: Well, you've got a lot on me, so I'm impressed.

[27:45] Ben Rimalower: Um, what about with the rest of the cast? I mean, uh a lot of them were Broadway veterans and this was also new for you.

[27:53] Ben Rimalower: What do you remember learning from them or just learning in this uh new experience you had?

[27:59] Ben Wright: Yeah, you know, uh that's a really interesting question. It was such a looking back, it was such a um such a remarkable group of people who certainly started the show, but then even when people left and you know, other people filled in the roles, the excellent group of folks too.

[28:19] Ben Wright: But you know, I think what I learned, Ben, is that if you do A, if you get the right combination of luck and timing and and skill and talent, all those things happen for you because there's so many talented people in the world that just the break never happens, I'm afraid.

[28:36] Ben Wright: But if like me, you really everything comes together and you get lucky and you do a good job, right?

[28:42] Ben Wright: You're reliable, you do a good job. You just do the basics, right?

[28:47] Ben Wright: I feel like you can be in that Broadway community as long as you want.

[28:51] Ben Wright: Yeah, right? Because you know, I remember that uh when Into the Woods closed, I went out to LA for a little bit, then I decided to go back to Indiana to go to IU, and I wasn't in classes for one week.

[29:01] Ben Wright: And guess who called again?

[29:03] Ben Wright: Ira.

[29:04] Ben Wright: Oh my god.

[29:05] Ben Wright: Ira and Ira says, hey, um, Steve wants you to come up and audition for um John Hinckley Jr. and Assassins.

[29:14] Ben Wright: Oh wow.

[29:16] Ben Wright: And I said, Oh my gosh, I just started college, right?

[29:19] Ben Wright: I was at NYU, I left. Then I just went to you know, New York and then to LA and then back to college.

[29:26] Ben Wright: And I'm a week in college, and he says, You want to come audition?

[29:28] Ben Wright: I couldn't help myself.

[29:30] Ben Wright: Of course.

[29:32] Ben Wright: So I go up, I audition for John Hinckley Jr., they're at Playwrights Horizons, and they offered me the part.

[29:40] Ben Wright: Wow.

[29:41] Ben Wright: And I said, Can I have a week to think about it?

[29:46] Ben Wright: And he said, Yes, of course.

[29:49] Ben Wright: So the first day it was, I'm dropping out of school, I'm gonna go do the show.

[29:54] Ben Wright: The next day it was, I can't do that. I gotta stay.

[29:56] Ben Wright: So it was back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.

[29:58] Ben Wright: And you know the end of the story.

[29:59] Ben Wright: I finally said, Ira, I just I can't. I can't do it. And I don't regret that. Um, because you A, you can't regret things like that. But B, because if I had done the show, I probably never would have met my wife.

[30:15] Ben Rimalower: Oh, that's so funny. I assumed because you and your wife were in State Fair together that you had met.

[30:25] Ben Wright: No, no, we um uh the funny story about meeting my wife is is that she came with her high school, she's two years younger than me. She came to our high school with her high school to see Into the Woods back in 88 or 89. And her story is they said she sat in the back row of the balcony, and it was very warm up there, and she fell asleep during the second act. Uh that's the story. So we'd actually sort of been in the same room uh well before we met, but we didn't meet on that trip. We met uh when I uh went to the University of Cincinnati for one quarter, and she was a senior there, and uh, and we met there in 1992, but um, and then did State Fair in in 96. Uh yeah, yeah, but anyway.

[31:12] Ben Rimalower: So, okay, so you well, that's lovely though, to have at least been offered another Sondheim show with a different director in that case, Jerry Zaks.

[31:12] Ben Wright: Yeah, yeah. I mean, Victor Garber was in that.

[31:23] Ben Rimalower: Oh, yeah, quite a bit.

[31:25] Ben Wright: It was just uh and and I I remember I uh Steve uh invited me to opening night, and I and I went up and I saw the show opening night, and it was spectacular. I was just sort of sick about the whole thing, so I didn't do it. Um, but I think uh Greg, what's his name? Greg Germain, Greg Germain.

[31:43] Ben Rimalower: German, yes, German.

[31:44] Ben Wright: I'm not sure how you say he was people know him from um Ally McBeal and but he was started off in Sondheim's Assassins. Yeah, and he was terrific. And um, you know, so uh, and I remember going to Steve's place in in Turtle Bay for the party afterwards, and John Wideman was there, and they were all just sort of, you know, rib, you know, sort of poking at me a little bit. You know, I remember Steve said, I guess the part wasn't big enough for you, is that right? I said, No, no, no, no, you know. But uh just what what yeah, what what a great what a great um what a great show that was. I I wish I'd been part of it.

[32:21] Ben Rimalower: Did you maintain that relationship with Sondheim over the years after that?

[32:26] Ben Wright: I did for a long time. Um he was you know very kind and generous and and and we got along quite well and and he was just always very very kind to me, very um generous with me. Um but over time I sort of, you know, I kind of I've kind of have spent the last 30 years of my life unwinding myself from the first 20 years of my life.

[32:49] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I think a lot of people can probably relate to that.

[32:52] Ben Wright: Yeah, yeah. So so you know, I kind of lost touch with him uh uh a little bit, but you know, we had so many reunions, whether it was Seegers from Center or Sam or or the 10 year anniversary that I think Yes on Broadway.

[33:04] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, where was that?

[33:05] Ben Wright: The Palace Theater, I can't remember, I think it was anywhere. Um but yeah, we'd stay in touch and and talk and chat and you know, um I always liked him.

[33:16] Ben Rimalower: And going back again in the Broadway run when uh cast members came back for you to film a few performances for the um American Playhouse broadcast. Do you remember anything um from that that that struck you as as interesting at the time?

[33:32] Ben Wright: I mean, uh I guess was that would that have been before you were out for six weeks to film um Born on the Fourth of July?

[33:40] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I can't remember if that was filmed before I did Born on the Fourth or after. I want to say it was after, Ben, because I remember um but I I'm just guessing. I remember having a conversation with James that um he told me when I got back from the Philippines, he said, you know, the show's gonna be closing in the fall. Do you want to come back and finish it out? And I said, Yeah, I would like to do that. But I I don't remember when if we did that before or after.

[34:09] Ben Wright: I mean, do you do you remember thinking about that um filming in uh as someone who was a young film film and television actor, you know, do you remember having a different approach to that knowing that to play to the cameras and that you were creating this um filmed record of Into the Woods?

[34:28] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, you know, I think my my notion with that at the time was this is gonna be filmed and it's gonna live in the Lincoln Center archives. And you have to go sit down and and watch it if you want to, and that's the extent of it.

[34:41] Ben Wright: Yeah.

[34:42] Ben Rimalower: And we all know the rest of the story. It's just become this asset that people watch and you know, is the threshold musical for for a lot of people. I've had people come up to you know, we get these touring groups through where we're through Wilmington where I live, and and these young people show up and they say, You're why I'm in the theater.

[35:03] Ben Wright: Absolutely.

[35:04] Ben Rimalower: That's that's humbling. You know, it's like yeah, you know, I should I say thank you? Are you happy in the theater? Or is that but um, but you know, it it it that I we had I had no idea that that the show was gonna take on the life that it has.

[35:18] Ben Wright: No one did. No one could possibly have known that. Um but no, I just tried to I just tried to do an authentic performance. I I knew where the cameras were, I saw where they were. I I did my best to figure out what kind of sight lines I was gonna use. Uh but I remember Chip Zien saying something that I took as a compliment. Maybe it was it wasn't a compliment, but he said, you know, Joanna and I were watching your your performance on the playback of Giants in the Sky on that recording, and and he said something like your the the clarity in your eyes, you you it's like you never blinked.

[35:52] Ben Rimalower: Right?

[35:52] Ben Wright: There was it was it was just uh there was a focus there that was just and uh maybe he was saying, Hey, blink once in a while, pal. You know, you look like a robot up there. But I think he was saying that he liked that. And you know, I I never took acting lessons. I I was just I just I I operate 101% off of instinct. Um that's how I've always done it. Which doesn't make it good, it just makes it how I do it.

[36:16] Ben Rimalower: Well, it certainly was good. I mean, I think you're spot on. I firmly believe that uh that that that video, so uh ideally produced is really um I mean, not just uh uh as you said, a threshold for people in theater, but just for fans everywhere, it's really their gateway, certainly to Stephen Sondheim, and I think in many cases to musicals and to theater in general. Um, you know, and I and I think that legacy continues to grow. And and I think when we see these um subsequent productions and even the Disney film of Into the Woods, they owe such a debt to that existing.

[36:59] Ben Wright: Um have you been involved in any other incarnations of Into the Woods since then?

[37:10] Ben Wright: No. No, I haven't. Umless I'm forgetting of something about.

[37:16] Ben Wright: I've seen a few productions, but very few.

[37:19] Ben Rimalower: Productions.

[37:20] Ben Wright: Mostly like junior productions, right? Um, but no, I I I really I don't believe that I have outside of the you know the the reunions that were done.

[37:29] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, well, those are those are well listen, it's not too late. There's still quite a few parts in Into the Woods you you could do.

[37:35] Ben Wright: Yeah, I'll tell you what, I I I the my favorite song in the whole show is um No More.

[37:43] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[37:44] Ben Wright: I mean the father and the son uh singing that song. I mean, I I would I would love to do that. Um just to sing that song. What a great yeah, yeah, you never know.

[37:57] Ben Rimalower: You never know. I've been out of out of show business for a long time, but I might come back for the right thing. Who knows?

[38:02] Ben Wright: Yes, yes. Um have you done other Sondheim shows uh in elsewhere uh ever since Into the Woods?

[38:10] Ben Wright: No, no, I really haven't. No, I really haven't. You know, after after Into the Woods, the uh the next show I did really was was State Fair.

[38:18] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[38:19] Ben Wright: Um and uh that's where Amy did that with me. Um, but then you know, I I was um offered the role of this uh the brother in Scarlet Pimpernel. Do you remember that show?

[38:30] Ben Rimalower: Sure.

[38:31] Ben Wright: Um I think it was Carol Lee Carmelo uh and I, and um she played the the sister, I can't remember the the roles and all that stuff.

[38:39] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[38:39] Ben Wright: But I was married and and at that point had just moved and bought a new house in North Carolina, and I was like, now they wanted me to come up and do the and I I once again I said I just can't do it.

[38:50] Ben Rimalower: That was an easier one to turn down than the Assassins, I bet.

[38:55] Ben Wright: Speaking of someone who saw both shows.

[38:57] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[38:58] Ben Wright: Yeah. But uh that's interesting. Um what what did come next for you after after you left show business, as you say, what yeah.

[39:09] Ben Wright: So, you know, I remember being um, let's see, after State Fair, I got this show called Hot Mikado. Mm-hmm. That was done at the Ford's Theater um in DC. And it was actually I think it got picked up by the Niederlanders to go to Broadway, but it I don't it ended up not going, but it didn't matter to me because I was just like, I'm just not I'm just don't want to do theater anymore. I just that's just where I was in my life. And and I was gonna move and down to North Carolina with with Amy where her family lived, and her dad very graciously offered me a job in his manufacturing company. You know, I never would have gotten that job because I didn't know the first thing about it, but but uh just learned on the job type thing.

But that but that's what I did. I just went and sort of tried to have the kind of life that I thought I wanted to have, which is sort of not the gypsy life, right? Not the yeah, the the going here, there or or yonder. Because I really had sort of done that since I was a kid.

[40:06] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[40:07] Ben Wright: And I just wanted I just didn't think I wanted that for my life.

[40:11] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[40:11] Ben Wright: So I I I didn't choose it. I just I just voluntarily extracted myself from it. And and then the story that I tell, Ben, is, you know, I encountered so many people, uh like myself, um, you know, who wanted it so badly, right? I mean, just would give give their right leg for it, right? And and here I was getting so lucky on some things, and it made me feel badly, you know. I just I was like, I need to, I need to get out of the way. These guys are talented, they're hungry, they want it, and I've just got things fall into my lap here, and what a schmuck am I to to do that, you know. So I just extracted myself from it, and again, no regrets, right? I've I've had an incredible last 30 years, and um so life was you know, I worked for him for a while, and then I got into retail brokerage um because you know I started investing money when I was a a kid, you know, because I was making money as a as an actor as a you know, and and I just never lost my interest in it.

It was one of the few things that it was like, you know, what are you really in what are you really interested in? Investing, oddly enough, was was one of those things. So I built up this book of business over 20 years and ended up selling it um a few years ago to um another group uh out of Raleigh, North Carolina, and joined my wife full-time in this coffee shop enterprise that we have.

[41:32] Ben Rimalower: Oh, how cool.

[41:33] Ben Wright: And now you're together again in that.

[41:35] Ben Rimalower: That's awesome.

[41:36] Ben Wright: Yes, yes, indeed.

[41:37] Ben Rimalower: Well, well, everyone uh listening, if you're in Raleigh, we should we should go. What's the name of the coffee shop?

[41:43] Ben Wright: Yeah, so actually we uh it's the uh we're headquartered in Wilmington, North Carolina, which is right on the coast. Uh it's called Biddy, B-I-T-T-Y Biddy, and Bo's like Beauregard, Biddy and Bo's coffee. And that those are the nicknames. You've never heard of this coffee shop, have you?

[41:58] Ben Rimalower: No.

[41:58] Ben Wright: Uh okay.

[41:59] Ben Rimalower: So Biddy and Bo are our two youngest kids, and all four of our kids are biological to me and Amy. So we did not adopt anyone. But both Bo and Biddy were born to us with Down syndrome. Oh wow. So statistically rare that there are no statistics on it. And then our oldest daughter is almost 25, uh, is on the autism spectrum. And then our 23-year-old who actually graduated NYU film and TV, uh, is our only typically developing child. But the long story short is we have about 18 coffee shops spread out over 12 different.

[42:36] Ben Rimalower: Right, right.

[42:37] Ben Wright: So well, this is more convenient. People can go to Biddy and Bo's.

[42:38] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah. Close if you're in New York, closest one's probably DC. We're gonna be up in in Cambridge in Boston pretty soon. But in any event, but that the whole deal with it is, and I know that's not what this is about, but but um 80% of people with intellectual and developmental disabilities don't have jobs because they can't get jobs because it doesn't occur to the business community that they could be employable, right?

[43:02] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, so we're kind of out to dispel that that that what we call a myth.

[43:07] Ben Wright: And uh, so we have over 400 employees with intellectual and developmental disabilities who work in our coffee shops.

[43:13] Ben Rimalower: Oh wonderful. I mean, wow, this is this is not just good coffee, this is a good cause as well.

[43:18] Ben Wright: I mean, well, you listen, it's related to I mean, this goes back to no one is alone and children will listen, and a lot of the themes that that that we're looking at, it sounds like it it is stuff that has been a part of your life's work in in various ways.

[43:33] Ben Wright: It's it's absolutely true, and yeah, who knew that the the proverbial bean was going to be such a a theme in my life.

[43:40] Ben Rimalower: The bean, yes.

[43:41] Ben Wright: Thank you. Um, I love that, Ben. Uh well, uh, thank you so much for sharing all that with me. It's really wonderful to chat with you.

[43:50] Ben Rimalower: Absolutely. Um we will uh continue uh to hope that we'll see we'll see the next Ben Wright performance of Sondheim or something else.

[44:00] Ben Wright: Hey, you never know.

[44:01] Ben Rimalower: You never know. And Ben, uh just uh thank you for for doing this. I mean, this is just uh selfishly, just for my my my kids are so excited to to be turned on to your podcast and to hear the stories that from from other people besides me, right? Who can really fill in a lot of gaps and put a lot of color on something. So thank you for for being the documentarian of this. It's really uh it's a gift to everybody.

[44:02] Ben Wright: Thank you.

[44:24] Ben Rimalower: Well, my pleasure. I appreciate you saying that. It's a listen, there's so many of us that are such fans of the work that you all did that we just we just want to know everything.

[44:36] Ben Rimalower: Thank you for listening to Giants in the Sky, how Sondheim and Lapine went Into the Woods on the Broadway Podcast Network. Look out for episode 38 with Douglas Sills, Rapunzel's Prince on the National Tour.