This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Ben Rimalower: Broadway Podcast Network presents Giants in the Sky, How Sondheim and Lapine Went Into the Woods with me, Ben Rimalower.

[0:07] Ben Rimalower: Today's guest, Tracy Katz Paladini, Little Red Riding Hood on the National Tour.

[0:12] Tracy Katz Paladini: Once upon a time.

[0:18] Tracy Katz Paladini: I played Little Red Riding Hood on the national tour of the original production of Into the Woods, directed by James Lapine, as well as in numerous subsequent iterations, including major revivals at Sacramento Music Circus, Long Beach Civic Light Opera, Theater Under the Stars, and The Ordway.

[0:36] Tracy Katz Paladini: Off-Broadway, I appeared in the original production of The Chosen.

[0:46] Ben Rimalower: So I guess I want to know before you even were cast in Into the Woods. Did you audition for it in New York? Well, what was your awareness?

[1:01] Tracy Katz Paladini: I did. I had so I knew Joanna Merlin. I went to Stage Door Manor with her two daughters.

[1:08] Ben Rimalower: Oh.

[1:08] Tracy Katz Paladini: And um, I had auditioned for Merrily. She had seen me in a show at Stage Door and said I'd like you to audition for the show. And so I got uh I went in and I auditioned and made it all the way up to the final callback for Merrily.

[1:24] Tracy Katz Paladini: For the La Jolla Playhouse Merrily.

[1:27] Ben Rimalower: No, this is for the Broadway.

[1:29] Tracy Katz Paladini: Wow, I didn't think you would even be old enough for that.

[1:33] Tracy Katz Paladini: That's like 1980.

[1:35] Tracy Katz Paladini: It was 81.

[1:37] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, right around there.

[1:40] Tracy Katz Paladini: 81. 80-81.

[1:42] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[1:42] Tracy Katz Paladini: Yeah. So okay, yeah, just from America. So there, so then um, she called me in for um Into the Woods, but for Rapunzel.

[1:56] Tracy Katz Paladini: Because I, you know, I can sing high too um and you know I auditioned and just didn't go anywhere and then I went and did um an off-Broadway show called The Chosen.

[2:09] Tracy Katz Paladini: Oh yeah and you know I'm best friends with Jeff Blumenkrantz, right?

[2:13] Ben Rimalower: Yes, okay.

[2:15] Tracy Katz Paladini: So um he invited me to the invited dress rehearsal for Into the Woods on Broadway, and so that's like I got to see it from you know day one there. And that's when I was like in the theater or in the rehearsal studio in the Martin Beck.

[2:33] Tracy Katz Paladini: Although I was actually present at some of the backers auditions, like one at Sardi's, um Jeff was playing Rapunzel's Prince at that point.

[2:46] Ben Rimalower: Wow and uh Joanna was attached and Chip and I, you know, I was there, I don't know why, but I was there. I guess I was that just like songs, yes.

[2:57] Tracy Katz Paladini: So um James Lapine would uh just sort of give a little intro and say a little bit about what was going on, and then they would do different songs from the show, and they had already done it at La Jolla, right?

[3:14] Tracy Katz Paladini: So this was after that. So it was like Betty Buckley the witch in those presentations.

[3:22] Tracy Katz Paladini: It wasn't Bernadette, and I can't remember who the witch is. I'm gonna say maybe there was no witch.

[3:30] Ben Rimalower: Oh, okay, just like other material.

[3:33] Tracy Katz Paladini: Maybe.

[3:34] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[3:35] Tracy Katz Paladini: Maybe. Because I mean the witch wasn't originally supposed to be a star vehicle.

[3:41] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[3:41] Tracy Katz Paladini: Right. And then once Bernadette joined, it was, you know, I they built it up. In fact, I was sitting in the audience next to Sondheim once.

[3:51] Tracy Katz Paladini: Uh we were, I don't know, I guess it was tech. And he like turned to me and he said, you know, we didn't plan to have this many ballads in a row in Act Two.

[4:02] Ben Rimalower: I'm glad. I'm glad he was aware.

[4:05] Tracy Katz Paladini: He was definitely aware. Um wait, so when you saw those backers auditions with Danielle Furlan, Little Red.

[4:15] Ben Rimalower: I don't think there was a Little Red.

[4:17] Tracy Katz Paladini: Gotcha. I think it was like Agony and Giants in the Sky, Joanna's number, just like a few, a few numbers.

[4:30] Ben Rimalower: Um and were you like, oh, this show's so great, I I'm sad I didn't get cast, or no.

[4:37] Tracy Katz Paladini: No.

[4:38] Ben Rimalower: No, not yet.

[4:40] Tracy Katz Paladini: I'm weird with Sondheim. If I go in knowing the music, I love it my first time. If I don't, it takes me a while.

[4:51] Ben Rimalower: Totally.

[4:52] Tracy Katz Paladini: Okay. Well, I mean, thank God Jeff was the understudy for uh several different roles because I would keep going back to see him in each role. And each time I was like, wait a second, wait a second. Oh, oh, oh, I really like the show.

[5:07] Tracy Katz Paladini: And it almost makes me feel like I'm a little, you know, it's me, because if I if I I should have recognized its value earlier, but it just took it's so much being thrown at you.

[5:21] Ben Rimalower: I feel that way too. 100%.

[5:23] Tracy Katz Paladini: I mean, I think um, and I feel that way with a lot of the modern musicals that I think take after Sondheim because in the old show, like if you see Hello Dolly, you know, or like an Andrew Lloyd Webber show, they it's like the music is sort of uh repeated so much that you your mind locks into the oh, this is like the chorus and the hook, and you know, uh I think it just takes longer.

[5:46] Tracy Katz Paladini: The Sondheim stuff is just it's like you said, there's so much comes at you, it's very rich and it's rewarding. I mean, you can, you know, listen to Sunday in the Park with George a million times and still find new things in it. But the first time you're a little bit like, wait, what?

[6:01] Ben Rimalower: Yes, exactly.

[6:03] Tracy Katz Paladini: Exactly. So now when I listen to Sunday, I'm like it there's so many similarities with Sunday and Into the Woods and some of the chords and the you know, just the things that are going on, it just it hits me so profoundly.

[6:22] Ben Rimalower: It's like in my brain.

[6:24] Tracy Katz Paladini: Yeah. Did you read James Lapine's book about it, putting it together?

[6:29] Ben Rimalower: Was it like two or no?

[6:32] Tracy Katz Paladini: I have not read that book. I only have to, it's so great because he talked to all the people involved. And so it's basically just his dialogues uh with all the actors and actors that got fired and actors that did the workshop and that quit and the designers and producers and people he didn't get along with and just like and all of them, you know, it's 40 years later piecing together their memories of, you know, wait, what happened? Oh, right, we did have rehearsals, and that's you know, and it's it's so interesting.

[7:03] Tracy Katz Paladini: And it made me want to do this podcast because I I felt like there that doesn't exist for Into the Woods and it's pre-internet. So people don't know things. I mean, there's so much I want to know that I still haven't been able to find out because it's not Googleable, you know.

[7:19] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[7:21] Tracy Katz Paladini: Um, so okay, so uh you so you saw Jeff go on as Rapunzel's Prince and as Jack.

[7:29] Tracy Katz Paladini: And Jack and the Steward.

[7:31] Ben Rimalower: And the steward's steward.

[7:33] Tracy Katz Paladini: And I think those were the three. What what was your favorite Jeff Blumenkrantz Into the Woods performance?

[7:41] Tracy Katz Paladini: Well, I loved watching him do the backers audition when he was Rapunzel's Prince because he had no direction and he just got to go full on comedy.

[7:52] Ben Rimalower: Oh wow.

[7:54] Tracy Katz Paladini: Which was I mean, I loved it. And I'm I totally understand picking Chuck, and you know, it was totally different and worked really well, and I understood why. But on Broadway, it was definitely Jack.

[8:10] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, why is that?

[8:11] Tracy Katz Paladini: Seeing him Jack. Uh I just I just his his, you know, his innocence and the and the what he brought to the role. I loved it. And I love Ben too, but it was great. I wish I could find video uh or audio even of Jeff uh as Jack. The way he described it to me a little bit as being like um like intellectually challenged, and that really to see it.

[8:39] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[8:39] Tracy Katz Paladini: Yes, absolutely, absolutely.

[8:43] Ben Rimalower: So um, did you see it on Broadway all those times with Jeff and and go, why did they audition for for me for Rapunzel? I want to play Little Red.

[8:53] Tracy Katz Paladini: It was never I want to play Little Red, but it was more like, oh wait, I'm more like that's that's that's who I'm more right for. I'm not I'm I'm just not a Rapunzel at all.

[9:07] Ben Rimalower: Well, you've got the hair.

[9:12] Tracy Katz Paladini: So um so when did you find out that there was did you go in for any replacement casting on Broadway or not until the tour audition?

[9:20] Tracy Katz Paladini: No, um I got a call to audition for the tour, and that's when I was like, okay. So I've you know, I quickly put together um I know things now because I knew that I needed to sing the song. And my first audition was for Joanna and uh James in some theater, I can't remember, but it was in a like a some Broadway theater, not not the Martin Beck.

[9:49] Tracy Katz Paladini: Not the Martin Beck, different one. And then um, oh it was the Edison Hotel Theater.

[9:55] Tracy Katz Paladini: It was that. Uh all I remember is Oh Calcutta.

[10:00] Ben Rimalower: Okay, I'll cut it was there.

[10:01] Tracy Katz Paladini: That's where I saw it. I was like, what?

[10:08] Tracy Katz Paladini: They must have had the heater on well.

[10:11] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, the heater.

[10:12] Tracy Katz Paladini: Oh, oh they can't keep the theater too drafty.

[10:17] Ben Rimalower: Oh, you're so funny.

[10:19] Tracy Katz Paladini: No, we needed our fake IDs to get into that one.

[10:23] Ben Rimalower: So how old would you have been when you auditioned?

[10:26] Tracy Katz Paladini: Uh I had just graduated college.

[10:29] Ben Rimalower: Okay.

[10:29] Tracy Katz Paladini: So I was old.

[10:30] Ben Rimalower: Well, this is great timing for you then. I mean, you're ready to to get it.

[10:34] Tracy Katz Paladini: So I graduated from college. I went straight um out of college into Summerstock, and then I did um I got an audition for um a show up at the Goodspeed Opera House and I got that and then right from the Goodspeed I did The Chosen in New York and then uh pretty close to that Into the Woods.

[10:56] Tracy Katz Paladini: And so um so your first audition was for Joanna and James and James and you know I knew Joanna and I had been to her house and so it felt comfortable.

[11:09] Ben Rimalower: She seemed I I did get to talk to her for this and she seems just like so lovely and uh such a mentor to so many people.

[11:17] Tracy Katz Paladini: I love her. I have I have only she is golden, she's a wonderful human and her daughters are wonderful as well. They're great.

[11:25] Tracy Katz Paladini: The original title. I mean, how how is that not like the first thing?

[11:32] Ben Rimalower: Exactly.

[11:33] Tracy Katz Paladini: So uh and then what what point did you um did you have to sing for Sondheim or Geminiani?

[11:33] Tracy Katz Paladini: They called me right back. Um they called me right back from that audition, and I think it was really soon, like maybe the next day or two days later, and that's when it was for um Sondheim as well.

[11:55] Tracy Katz Paladini: And were you like and I don't think it was Geminiani. I think Paul Ford was playing piano too. And were were you like um, well, this is going well, I'm booking this. Like, did you have that confidence about it?

[12:10] Tracy Katz Paladini: I mean, I knew I I knew I could sing it, and I felt like it was it felt right. Yeah, but um the the at the very end of the song, um I Know Things Now, there's this little dot that that that that duh duh and there's that little final button yeah and I kind of was you know I had just learned the song it wasn't really in me and I kind of I had looked down and I lifted my head up to sort of be like okay I'm done but it turns out I lifted my head up right on the button and kind of went like this and Sondheim laughed and that's when I felt like okay I think I did okay.

[12:25] Tracy Katz Paladini: Oh that's great and so then so then you got the offer.

[13:01] Tracy Katz Paladini: And did you know anything about like the tour at that point, like how long it would be, where it'd be playing, who was starring in it? Did you have was that like stuff that you were following or told about or no? I don't, I don't, I mean I knew it was the national tour. I knew we would be rehearsing in New York with the whole group, but I didn't know who was cast at that point.

[13:28] Tracy Katz Paladini: And was that like a great job? Because I mean tours are good money anyway and that's like in the golden age of like production contracts and all that, right? So that was the time where you would bank our salary and live on our per diem and you just saved a lot and that's how they got so many really well-known talented people to go out on tour because you know it's how you could save enough money to put a down payment on your house.

[13:57] Tracy Katz Paladini: Yeah, it was nice. Even if you were 22, you wouldn't be like, you know, uh stupid and make uh 22-year-old decisions about your money. I have always been very frugal and money, you know, uh money wise, and uh I live nicely, but I really like a bargain.

[14:19] Ben Rimalower: Oh Tracy, you're I wish you'd been my uh my mentor. Um okay so then uh how tell me about the rehearsal process.

[14:30] Tracy Katz Paladini: We rehearsed for a month at the Mince Kough in the city. Um on the stage? No, no, no, in the Mince Kough rehearsal studios. Sorry, oh is that in downstairs in the same building or or upstairs or whatever or upstairs? Um there were all uh rehearsals hang on I'm just trying to remember. I think we were rehearsing at the same time as Jerome Robbins Broadway like in the same kind of hallway and whatever I'm I'm not mistaking it I don't think. Um it was the chosen I think it was I think it was Into the Woods. Yeah, um but like the timing the timing would be Into the Woods you've got to be right. Yeah, there were whole like it was just rehearsal studios that was where all the shows oh interest studios back then it was like it was like the second floor maybe Jeff would know he would be able to that's because that's not there anymore that studio I wonder what I know then they went to like the 46th street whatever's and yeah so but that was in the time that's where we all rehearsed and that was the whole the whole cast was rehearsing together.

[14:35] Tracy Katz Paladini: You said so that's Cleo Lane and um is that Mary Gordon Murray and Ray Gill. Yeah. Chuck Wagner. Chuck was the uh Cinderella's prince in my in my wall. Yeah. Um Kathy Roma Callan was our original Cinderella. Wow. Robin Robbie Duncan McNeil was my and you know, so many of these people are still good dear, dear friends.

[16:06] Ben Rimalower: Oh, really? That's so nice to hear.

[16:08] Tracy Katz Paladini: When you're on the road for that long and you're living with them, I mean it's you know, and I did Into the Woods at least three or four more times with Mary Gordon Murray.

[16:21] Ben Rimalower: Oh wow. We wound up doing the whole tour, right?

[16:25] Tracy Katz Paladini: Because she went into the Broadway company.

[16:29] Ben Rimalower: No, she did not stay the whole tour. You know who took her place? Um the our stepsister, Judy McLean.

[16:38] Tracy Katz Paladini: Oh wow. Long before she ever did Mamma Mia.

[16:45] Ben Rimalower: Correct. Um and then uh oh well crazy thing I read that that um Cinderella's father was Kim Crosby's actual father.

[16:56] Tracy Katz Paladini: Don Crosby, who I had worked with uh doing my first job out of college at Summerstock. I had done Brigadoon, he was Mr. Lundy, and uh so I got to reunite with him in the show, yeah.

[17:09] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, and you know he was like a dentist, right?

[17:13] Tracy Katz Paladini: And he retired and decided he wanted to do acting and you know did it.

[17:19] Ben Rimalower: And he did it. And who is the narrator and mysterious man?

[17:22] Tracy Katz Paladini: Rex Robins.

[17:24] Ben Rimalower: Oh, okay, great, yeah. I've seen him enough, yeah. Um, and uh okay, and so what was Cleo Lane like?

[17:32] Tracy Katz Paladini: She was I I've had the pleasure, like the the stars that I've worked with, like across the board, I've just worked with the nicest humans ever. I have never I have nothing bad to say about Cleo. She is a lovely, wonderful lady. Her husband's great. Uh I think he passed actually, John Dagfart.

[17:57] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[17:58] Tracy Katz Paladini: Um she was fantastic. Oh, we had Charlotte Ray too.

[18:02] Ben Rimalower: Charlotte Ray was jazzing. What was Charlotte Ray like?

[18:06] Tracy Katz Paladini: Charlotte Ray and I were trapped behind a house before the opening of the show. So um they decided to switch from the Broadway show. I don't know if you remember, but on the Broadway show, the Baker Baker's wife was stage left and Jack was center stage.

[18:22] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[18:23] Tracy Katz Paladini: So for the tour, they decided that the Baker Baker's wife should be center stage and Jack moved to stage left.

[18:30] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[18:31] Tracy Katz Paladini: So Charlotte and I were stuck behind the center stage house for the top of act one every night. And she was a piece of work. She was like piece of work. My one of my memories is one day she came out and her skin was completely orange. And I'm like, Charlotte, are you okay? And she's like, Oh yes, I just drank too much carrot juice and my whole body turned orange.

[18:59] Ben Rimalower: So was she like a health nut?

[19:02] Tracy Katz Paladini: Not necessarily, but I don't know. She was lovely. She was fine. She had a, you know, she she i it it's a tricky part. She's not wasn't necessarily a singer, so I just remember conductor to to get her on. He had to like he started by going like this, and then he started and went shh, and then he started and he had to like hit his chest and go.

[19:29] Ben Rimalower: So I know it's like for the part.

[19:35] Tracy Katz Paladini: I mean, she was just like, you know, although Barbara Grinn. I mean Barbara Grant. I mean Charlotte Ray was such a huge TV star at that time. I mean, I grew up watching her on the facts of life. Religiously. And then it's she the draw for the audiences like all around the country.

[19:55] Ben Rimalower: Maybe I don't know. She didn't stay that long.

[19:58] Tracy Katz Paladini: Oh gotcha. Um we technically opened at the Amundsen in LA, and she lives in LA. So I think that was, you know, because we were here for quite a while.

[20:11] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[20:12] Tracy Katz Paladini: Maybe three months.

[20:14] Ben Rimalower: Oh, because you live in LA now too.

[20:16] Tracy Katz Paladini: Yeah. Now I'm in.

[20:17] Ben Rimalower: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm in L.

[20:20] Tracy Katz Paladini: Yeah, I'm I'm from LA and I went to high school um uh in the valley, and my um our music studio, the first time I ever heard of Into the Woods was that in our music studio in my middle school, well, it was all one school, it was Oakwood.

[20:35] Ben Rimalower: Oh, you went to Oakland, yeah. My friend's kids went to Oakwood.

[20:38] Tracy Katz Paladini: Okay, well, it was good times back then, and we had this big poster for the for the national tour of Into the Woods, and it's it's listed um uh Charlotte and Cleo on it. And I I think there was a slogan like someone's been messing with our fairy tales or something. I don't know. I I just remember sitting there bored in like music class and just like staring at that poster, you know, before I years before I saw the show.

[21:05] Ben Rimalower: Wow. So when was the first time you saw the show?

[21:09] Tracy Katz Paladini: Uh well, I think I was at my my grand. This is so funny. I can't believe I've done all these interviews and I haven't talked about my experience with Into the Woods. But my uh I'll probably cut this, but I'll tell you. Um my grandfather uh in the Bronx in Riverdale was like obsessed with his VCR. I mean, this was still in the heyday of like VCRs, and he would record like millions of things off of television um and like label them.

[21:37] Tracy Katz Paladini: He would like fit three things on these like you know, cheap play, like six hour video tapes, and and he would do like all these movies and things from like HBO or even TV with commercials, and he would label them with like cutting out the TV guide listing for the thing. And so you could see sometimes it had like the you know, the photo or whatever, like taped to the outside of the box. And I was like looking through his videos one time when I was sleeping over, and I was on California time and you know, up when my grandparents were along sleeping, and I saw Into the Woods was there, and it was from the Broadway uh, you know, PBS version. And I had I only knew it existed because of the poster at school, but I put it on and then I was like, oh my god, this is this is so great. And you know, and I loved Bernadette Peters, so I was excited. We were still doing the tour when that happened, and Chuck had to leave for the taping for that.

[22:30] Ben Rimalower: Oh, right, because that's that's one of the things that I'd never realized until doing this podcast was that it kind of that rock star energy that you feel in that video is because so many of them had already left and were coming back like you know, returning heroes.

[22:44] Tracy Katz Paladini: Um and what was Chuck like in in the role of of the wolf?

[22:50] Ben Rimalower: I mean, you know, uh he's so great on the videos Rapunzel's prince, but I I I have no no concept of his wolf.

[22:57] Tracy Katz Paladini: Chuck was amazing and his physical, you know, just the the his size, he was, I mean, you know Chuck for me was great because I was his little red, you know. He was he was just as wonderful as could be and very professional on stage with me, and I loved performing with him.

[23:25] Ben Rimalower: Was his costume similar to the one on Broadway?

[23:30] Tracy Katz Paladini: So I might be mixing up two stories right now.

[23:38] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I'll take it.

[23:40] Tracy Katz Paladini: I seem to remember I seem to remember that we the the I think this is correct. It could be this could be the Broadway story, but in my memory, we started the the wolf had genitalia. Yeah, and then as we kept going along, they kept snipping it shorter and shorter, and then one day it was completely gone.

[24:05] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[24:06] Tracy Katz Paladini: Like as we got to Des Moines, Iowa, or you know, whatever. Gone. No more.

[24:12] Ben Rimalower: And what about the rest of your costumes? Were they was it the same look costume-wise as the Broadway show?

[24:19] Tracy Katz Paladini: Exactly the same, same annual award, like you know, yeah, everything. Everything was exactly as as Broadway. In fact, um I wore I've worn those costumes every time I've done the show. I've done it a bunch since the tour. And um uh Sacramento Music Circus wound up buying the costumes after the Broadway show closed, and so they rent them out now.

[24:45] Tracy Katz Paladini: And my husband was directing it. He was teaching grad school in Virginia. And I called up Sacramento and they wound up renting us the costumes for like a really nice amount. So the you know, this this grad school got to wear them too.

[25:01] Ben Rimalower: That's great. Uh wait, so they still live on.

[25:04] Ben Rimalower: I want to well we'll finish talking about the tour, but I want to get to later on. I want to ask you about the other productions you did. But um, so uh and how did the show play in these different because I I had this notion that Into the Woods compared to other Sondheim shows has a more mass appeal and that it would actually play really well all over the country. Is that right?

[25:31] Tracy Katz Paladini: I think we we did really well. I mean, we toured for just under two years. We had you know, the audiences were full. We we did well. It was it was a nice tour. I feel like people it's interesting because I think people got it on different levels depending on where they are, who they are, what point in their lives, where they were living, but you know, people could identify with the fairy tale characters. Sure. Uh and then sometimes the deeper levels came through. Act two, sometimes I felt like maybe people would get a little, you know, restless. Yeah. But overall, great response. Um, and I I think they it played across the country. Better in the big cities, right? But well across the country.

Although now, I mean, someone was telling me they saw the the sh revival that's on right now. And it's become so many high schools uh have done the show that it has become this like cult kind of thing and everybody knows the song and like every song, huge tears, like little red song, you know, it's a nice song, but it's not like you know but on Broadway now like it does feel that way, it really does. I mean, almost to a detriment, like there's times when you feel like the audience is responding to a joke before it even really happens, like they're just anticipating it. I mean, it's great that they're so with it, you know, it's better than the alternative, but it it's uh it's definitely like very very it's a lot sometimes.

Um or you can't hear like the people singing because there's who there's they're screaming so loud for like high notes and stuff that you're like I actually didn't hear the high note because you were hollering, you know.

[27:26] Ben Rimalower: All right, oh it's not ideal.

[27:29] Tracy Katz Paladini: Yeah, those they're buying tickets. Um but so uh and did was was was Sondheim and Lapine watching the show. Were you having feedback from them?

[27:41] Tracy Katz Paladini: So Sondheim and Lapine were with us the entire time the month that we rehearsed in um in the city, and then they both they came to with us to um Florida. We previewed in Florida at the Pointiana Playhouse. Oh got it. And so I just I remember our Zitzprobe was in the the lobby of the Pointiana Playhouse with Sondheim conducting. I'm like wow, okay, you know, crazy. Um, and then we did the Parker Playhouse. Well maybe we did the Parker Playhouse first. I don't know. One one or the other. And then they came to um LA to open it here. And then they would just pop in and out, you know, like I think Sondheim came when we were at the Kennedy Center and he would just show up every now and then. You know would he give you um would he give you notes or did he go through stage management or whatever.

[28:39] Tracy Katz Paladini: So during rehearsal he gave us notes um one particular time. So I got a note from Sondheim he wanted me to punch Jack in the stomach at the end of your fault. Yeah. So I put it in at the next rehearsal and then I got a note from Lapine saying don't punch Jack at the end of your fault. So I went out and I like held up the two notes and I said all right guys duke it out. Sondheim won that one. I think um so he never Sondheim never gave notes I don't remember getting notes from him after we opened. Yeah um I do remember like when he came to the Kennedy Center he took me side and he congratulated me I had one like I had won a Carbonell Award and um he said you know congratulations on your success and I I got nominated for a Helen Hayes for that.

[29:42] Ben Rimalower: How wonderful yeah it was fun.

[29:45] Tracy Katz Paladini: So I mean, were you just having the time of your life on that tour? That seems like such an incredible experience to have so fresh out of the gate.

[29:52] Tracy Katz Paladini: Yes and no. So I mean yes, absolutely. But touring is hard and kind of lonely and you know I just remember being in Cleveland a year in and just feeling down and like I called my dad. I'm like Dad, I'm like below the line here and he flew out and you know it's just it's touring is it can it can you go home and you're still in a hotel room.

[30:21] Ben Rimalower: Yeah and I mean were I guess you were considerably younger than the rest of the cast too like no I mean Robbie Duncan McNeil was my age and um Jonathan Hadley was an understudy Hadley yeah we did a class he was Jeff's understudy in a class act. Uh-huh uh um I love him uh he liked the Jeff Blumencrans track of like the Rapunzel Jack Stewart understudy yeah that's so great he was I love that he was in the Jeff Blumencrans track on I'm just realizing this right now yeah that's so cool um so did you did the young people stick together at all?

[30:38] Tracy Katz Paladini: Yeah we all we were all together except for Don who is sort of like you know a little off and and Cleo um we all we were really really really close I I forgot to mention Douglas Sills was our um report right of course yes that I had re I'd read I mean and he must have been really that was that like his first big big show I'm gonna say yes was he just like so handsome and charismatic and like an obvious like star.

[31:34] Tracy Katz Paladini: Handsome, charismatic, but he has like a goofiness about him. And he was also Douglas, you know, he's Douglas, you know.

[31:43] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[31:43] Tracy Katz Paladini: And it it we were we were it was you know, we were very it was close. He had he had not like because we were all sort of an ensemble cast, yeah. It wasn't like I'm the star, you know, when he went on to do Pimpernel, yeah, I'm sure it changed. I mean, but it was like I mean Cleo Lane was older and like an international, like you know, jazz legend. I mean, she must have been a little bit removed from the from the she like wasn't coming on outings with us, but we would eat with her sometimes, and she was very accessible and absolutely lovely. Like I remember we were in we were at Douglas's house in I'm gonna say Michigan, and you know, Cleo came and like we would she there was participation, yeah.

[32:42] Ben Rimalower: Did she stay in the chair longer than Charlotte?

[32:45] Tracy Katz Paladini: Yeah, Cleo stayed nine months. Oh wow, we got Betsy Jocelyn took over for Cleo. Um, so Cleo and I were stuck behind a house for act two for even longer, and so they put these little um seats for us that they hung on pegs, and we would put the the seats down, and one night I said to her, I said, gosh, I'm schmitzing because I had my wolf cape on, and she's like, What is schmitzing? And I was like, Oh, it means sweating and Yiddish, and she's like, That's a great word. So every night I would teach her another Yiddish word.

[33:25] Ben Rimalower: Oh, I love that.

[33:27] Tracy Katz Paladini: It was right spilkish and you know, all kinds of charming. Um, and then what like I mean, I assume did you guys all stay in the same like uh hotels or apartments, or how did that work?

[33:45] Tracy Katz Paladini: For the most part, so they usually gave us two choices, and we would pick whichever one we wanted, unless we had friends or family, and then we would go off on our own. Yeah, so for the 90% of the time we were all together, and that you know, because you're all you're eating, and you really it it's not like you're working in an office and you just see a person nine to five, you're living with people, yeah.

[34:09] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, it sounds like kind of like stage door, yeah, yeah. And yeah, I mean you get to know them on a deeper level, like every single person on that tour, just still huge place in my heart.

[34:21] Ben Rimalower: So tell me who do you keep in touch with the most from the tour?

[34:24] Tracy Katz Paladini: Oh, uh well, Mary, uh Mary Gwen Murney and Robbie Duncan McNeil, I would say the most. I'm gonna talk to Mary next week, actually. I'm excited. I love her, I love Mary, and we did do it a few times after yeah.

[34:40] Ben Rimalower: So tell me about about the other productions you did.

[34:44] Tracy Katz Paladini: So after the tour ended, um I decided that I liked LA, yeah, mostly because we were here in January, February, March, and I was like, wait a second. It's warm. I like this. And I had gone to Syracuse University, and I'm like, I don't ever want to be that cold again. So I was like, I'm going out there. So I came out here, and my stepbrother was here, and I actually wound up living in the house of our um we had an assistant stage manager, Jill Gower. Do you know Jill Gower? She's still touring.

[35:24] Tracy Katz Paladini: From the time from Into the Woods, she is still touring. Like every show you could possibly imagine. So she was on another tour, and her house, she's like, you know, I rented a room in her house and it was fabulous. Um so I I moved out and I heard that there was a production at the Long Beach Civic Light Opera.

[35:48] Ben Rimalower: Oh yeah.

[35:49] Tracy Katz Paladini: I I had a subscription there, but like a year later. Like I I didn't get to that was with Leslie Oggams, right?

[35:56] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[35:57] Tracy Katz Paladini: So I remember reading about this was um Glen Cassal.

[36:02] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, the Terrace Theater, right?

[36:04] Tracy Katz Paladini: The Norma Terra Norma's Terrace Theater? Yeah, no, no, no. No, no, Norma McTraires. No, no, no, no. This is terrace like balcony.

[36:12] Ben Rimalower: Oh, oh, oh, okay.

[36:13] Tracy Katz Paladini: I don't know. I don't remember. Um, so Glenn Cassell and then John McDaniel was the musical director.

[36:21] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[36:22] Tracy Katz Paladini: So he actually asked me to audition.

[36:27] Ben Rimalower: How did you know that?

[36:29] Tracy Katz Paladini: Uh uh I I might my agent must have said, you know, oh, they've got this out there, and you know, I so they asked me to come and audition and I went to John McDaniel's house and I just sang through the song once and it, you know, it was all nice. I think they just wanted to make sure that if they were working with someone that they would be, you know, take direction, basically.

[36:52] Ben Rimalower: Right, right.

[36:53] Tracy Katz Paladini: And uh it they were both lovely and great. So I did the show at Long Beach, and then I wound up doing it I'm gonna say seven or eight other times with Glen. Like all the time.

[37:06] Tracy Katz Paladini: So Leslie Oggams was our witch, I would say five or six of those times.

[37:10] Ben Rimalower: Wow, she must have been incredible.

[37:12] Tracy Katz Paladini: She was wonderful. I love Leslie. I I mean I can only imagine just her voice just like just so thrilling on that stuff. She was great. She was great. So we did it at Sacramento Music Circus with Leslie. I think we did oh, we did this big production at um the Ordway, uh Glen directed, and Kevin McCullum was the producer, and Brian Darcy James was our baker.

[37:42] Tracy Katz Paladini: Wow, his first maker.

[37:43] Ben Rimalower: Now he's full circle.

[37:45] Tracy Katz Paladini: I know, I know.

[37:47] Ben Rimalower: So um, yeah, and his wife Jen Prescott was also a stepsister, so that was really fun.

[37:53] Tracy Katz Paladini: Um, so that was one of them. And was it was that a production that you said that the uh some of the times it was your costumes from from all of the time.

[38:03] Tracy Katz Paladini: All the time. I've never done the show without wearing my original costume.

[38:07] Ben Rimalower: And so was Glenn's production in general sort of similar to uh the one that that you originated.

[38:16] Tracy Katz Paladini: Yes, but um he he kept what worked and kind of tweaked a few other things. Like there were a couple of little um like he I wish I could remember the exact cuts, but there were a couple of scenes that he kind of pieced together so that they flowed a little better.

[38:35] Ben Rimalower: Oh how good I remember it worked really well, and then at Long Beach was the first time he had a person playing Milky White.

[38:45] Tracy Katz Paladini: Oh wow, how cool.

[38:47] Ben Rimalower: Scott Stevens, do you know him?

[38:50] Tracy Katz Paladini: I know that name. I'm not he does the Broadway pet stuff with Bernadette.

[38:55] Ben Rimalower: Oh wow, but he was the pet himself in uh in he was the he was our Milky White.

[39:01] Tracy Katz Paladini: I love that. I could be wrong. He might have been assistant director, but I think he I think he was our okay. Anyway, but it it it worked nicely, and Milky got some good laughs, and it was fun.

[39:17] Ben Rimalower: And you said that Mary Gordon Murray did some of those with you.

[39:20] Tracy Katz Paladini: So Mary was no Sarah Tattersall was at Long Beach. Mary did the Ordway, Mary did one or two of the Sacramento music circuses. We did it in the tent. I've done it in the tent once or twice, and then the there's like a Broadway series that was a one-off that I've done it with. And Michelle Pac was our um witch that time.

[39:47] Ben Rimalower: Oh, I wish I'd seen that.

[39:49] Tracy Katz Paladini: And that was I did that when I was actually five months pregnant when I did Little Red.

[39:54] Ben Rimalower: Oh my gosh, and it worked very nicely because you know she's supposed to have a nice round tummy.

[39:59] Tracy Katz Paladini: That's hilarious. Oh my god. They used to have buckets for me off stage because I was so um nauseous all the time, they would have a bucket waiting for me off stage.

[40:12] Ben Rimalower: Oh my god, your your kid must have like time in the blood.

[40:16] Tracy Katz Paladini: Oh, I guess. Yeah, and did your kids are your kids performers?

[40:23] Ben Rimalower: Do you have one?

[40:25] Tracy Katz Paladini: So I have two kids. My daughter majored in college in theater and um English. And she is not pursuing the acting route, but she loves it. And my son uh just graduated from UC D Davis. He's um he graduated neurobiology, physiology, and behavior with a minor in global disease biology. But on the side, he was in the musical theater club.

[40:55] Ben Rimalower: Oh, I love it. Well, you do very well, very smart and very well rounded. Can either of them ever do a production of Into the Woods?

[41:03] Tracy Katz Paladini: Yes. So the production that my husband um directed in Virginia at that grad school, he used the kids and they were little. He used uh my daughter Samantha as the um he did the whole thing as like a fairy tale, and she was the the person who sort of was the young Cinderella, and she like dropped the dress down to Cinderella and she came in through.

[41:32] Ben Rimalower: And then Benny, my son, who's very little because I'm little, he was the um the goose that that laid the golden egg, and Jack would carry him under his his arm.

[41:47] Tracy Katz Paladini: That is so cute. Educational theater, you can do anything. I love that, and I was so happy that they had the opportunity to be a part of the show and really get to know it, even though they were like, I don't know, seven and nine.

[42:03] Ben Rimalower: Did did you ever want to graduate to one of the uh other parts? Did you ever want to do a baker's wife?

[42:07] Tracy Katz Paladini: Oh no, no, no, I couldn't do Baker's Wife. I think if I ever did it again, it would be probably Jack's mother, right? Or granny, but Jack's mother would be you haven't you haven't matrixed. You stayed in the little red lane so far.

[42:25] Ben Rimalower: I I say it again. In the little you stayed in the little red lane so far.

[42:31] Tracy Katz Paladini: Oh, I haven't done the show in a while, but yeah, that so far it's only been little red.

[42:36] Ben Rimalower: No, I would I would go see you do it again. I'd I'd love to see that.

[42:39] Tracy Katz Paladini: So funny. No, I'm definitely not uh not of the appropriate age.

[42:44] Ben Rimalower: Well, you know, in a big venue, you could definitely pull it up.

[42:49] Tracy Katz Paladini: I love you. You're so cute. That's great. Um oh that's so wonderful. And then um uh have you um was there any kind of like did you guys come together at all like when Sondheim died? You sort of alumni of that tour. Was there any sort of um no?

[43:10] Ben Rimalower: No, maybe you maybe you guys should have a reunion.

[43:13] Tracy Katz Paladini: I think we should. I think that's a really good idea. Come come to New York before the uh revival closes and you can all we can all do it together.

[43:23] Ben Rimalower: I like that idea. Plant the seed. Well, listen, my my uh my other uh my day job is I'm the uh director of programming at the Green Room 42, which is uh cabaret room in midtown in the Yotel. I just started over the summer, but so if you want to come do anything by yourself or with your into the woods alumni or whatever, you just let me know.

[43:44] Tracy Katz Paladini: We'll sell thank you. Everybody's got into the woods fever now. We can run with it.

[43:49] Ben Rimalower: Very fun. Very fun. Gosh, that's great. That's great. Well, this is thank you so much for talking to me, Tracy. It's so much fun, and I you really appreciate all of everything you remember, and it's so great to get that vivid picture of it.

[44:03] Tracy Katz Paladini: So happy to talk to you. And I feel like you're just, you know, you've got this encyclopedia of, you know, you remember everything.

[44:10] Ben Rimalower: And I'm trying. I mean, it's amazing how much I can't find out. But uh, I'm going to the Yale Library tomorrow to look through James Lapine's archives. I'm hopefully get some answers.

[44:19] Tracy Katz Paladini: Okay, all right. Well, like, what are you trying to find out? Like what specific?

[44:22] Ben Rimalower: Well, like there was a reading. There was before they went to San Diego to do it at the Old Globe, they did a workshop at Playwrights Horizons, and before the workshop at Playwrights, they did a reading at Playwrights Horizons. But uh, I know that Danielle Ferland and Chip Zion were in it and they remember each other being in it, although James Lapine does not remember Chip doing it. Chip played a prince in that version. I mean that's when they had like Rumpel Stillskin was a character, and like it was a whole different thing. But nobody remembers who was any of the other parts. It was definitely not Joanna Gleason. Um, it might have been Ray Gill, actually, because James was like in love with Ray Gill.

[45:05] Tracy Katz Paladini: Um he I guess I'm one of the things I'm trying to get an answer to is because James and also Ira Weitzman, who had sort of like produced the line produced it for Playwrights Horizons in the first reading and workshop and then went to San Diego with them. They spoke so lovingly of Ray Gill and how he'd gotten sick and passed, and that's why he wasn't in it after that. But I'm realizing now he was in it after that. He did the tour two years later. So maybe he just had another job when they went to San Diego.

[45:42] Ben Rimalower: Yes, I think he was doing something else. I don't know what, but I want to say maybe was driving with Staisy or I think that Iris. I don't know. I don't know, but maybe he was busy. I don't know. But he he was a he I loved him. I loved him. And he was a dear friend, like a really, really good friend. I mean they both Ira and and Ship also. Ira and Chip and James spoke of him personally, professionally, just as like a gem. And I guess so much so that LePine couldn't conceive of somebody who didn't even look like him to play the part. And so then it was a hard sell because Ship was such a different type that they couldn't, it took a while for them to come together because he wanted like a Ray Gill type.

[46:39] Tracy Katz Paladini: Yeah, I get it. I get it. Well, I was so happy I got to work with him on the tour. And um he did get sick. He he found out he yeah, he got sick. That was tricky. But he stayed, he stayed a while. I mean, he was able to do it for quite a while.

[46:58] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. But yeah, I think, yeah, it was hard. Well, so uh that I'm I'm glad I got to hear that from you too. But I um so but that first reading at Playwrights Horizons, I want to find out who was in it, and then also the workshops they did after San Diego, they have all kinds of um wacky things. I guess they like auditioned choreographers where different choreographers would come in and interest stage them, and then LePine and Sondheim would discuss privately like who they what they like better, but but nobody remembers who the choreographers were or what when they did that or which the cast they used for it or anything like that.

[47:39] Tracy Katz Paladini: I barely remember even our choreographer. I barely and Glenn Casal, who is not a dancer, he choreographed all the shows himself. I mean, there's really not music skipping or whatever.

[47:52] Ben Rimalower: Well, Glenn is somebody a little, I mean, now LePine has done a lot of musicals, but but at that time it he was somewhat of a novice to it. And I think you know, Glenn Casal is somebody who's made his career with musical theater.

[48:04] Tracy Katz Paladini: Yeah, yeah. Um now I'm even more mad that I missed it at the Long Beach Civic Light Opera because I saw so many shows there the next couple years, but I missed you in Into the Woods. But I'm still I'm I'll wait for your reunion then.

[48:15] Ben Rimalower: Okay. All right, I'll start putting it together.

[48:17] Tracy Katz Paladini: All right. All right, then this is just goodbye for now then.

[48:22] Ben Rimalower: Oh, well, if you have any memorabilia that you want to send me like photos of, I would just love to see stuff and we can use it on the social media. It helps promote the um podcast when it drops, you know.

[48:33] Tracy Katz Paladini: Okay, like what kind of memorabilia?

[48:35] Ben Rimalower: I mean, you know, if you have photos, t shirts, opening night games, you know, program.

[48:43] Tracy Katz Paladini: Sign time gave us a book and signed it with LePine.

[48:46] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I'd love to see photos of any of that.

[48:49] Tracy Katz Paladini: I'll get that together. I also have, I don't know if you knew, but I wore glasses in the show.

[48:55] Ben Rimalower: So that's so cute.

[48:57] Tracy Katz Paladini: I had reading glasses, and I remember we were doing the first read-through, and I was like saying some lines, and Sondheim and LePine were like, you know, ribbing each other and I'm like, what? You know, it was like, you know, what what? And they're like, we like your glasses. We're gonna give you glasses in the show. So I wore these like red, rounds. I'll send you a picture of them because I still have them. These red round glasses, and that sort of became, you know, I love that.

[49:27] Ben Rimalower: I love that. Well, send me a picture of those and take a picture wearing them too. That'll be super cute.

[49:32] Tracy Katz Paladini: Now?

[49:32] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[49:33] Tracy Katz Paladini: Yeah. I'm just trying to push you back into that red riding hood.

[49:38] Ben Rimalower: Oh my god.

[49:43] Tracy Katz Paladini: Thank you for listening to Giants in the Sky, how Sondheim and LePine went into the woods on the Broadway Podcast Network.

[49:50] Ben Rimalower: Look out for episode 40 with Jackie Dankworth, Cinderella in the original London cast, and Cleo Lane's daughter.