This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Ben Rimalower: Broadway Podcast Network presents Giants in the Sky, How Sondheim and LePine Went Into the Woods with me, Ben Rimalower.

[0:08] Ben Rimalower: Today's guest, Jonathan Hadley, Rapunzel's's Prince on the National Tour.

[0:12] Jonathan Hadley: Once upon a time.

[0:15] Ben Rimalower: Jonathan Hadley played Rapunzel's's Prince in the national company of Into the Woods, directed by James Lapine after having stood by for the role in the opening months of the tour.

[0:24] Ben Rimalower: On Broadway and on tour, he also appeared in A Class Act, The Bodyguard, Jersey Boys, White Christmas, and Fiddler on the Roof.

[0:33] Ben Rimalower: His many regional roles include co-starring with Leslie Uggams in Call Me Madam at the Paper Mill Playhouse.

[0:38] Ben Rimalower: And his many television credits include co-starring with Sarah Jessica Parker on Sex in the City.

[0:48] Ben Rimalower: Jonathan Hadley, such a pleasure to talk to you, my old friend.

[0:52] Jonathan Hadley: Oh, Ben, this is the craziest thing.

[0:55] Jonathan Hadley: I love it.

[0:55] Jonathan Hadley: I'm so glad to be here.

[0:58] Ben Rimalower: Well, I mean, it seems impossible to me to think that you're someone that I know in my life in New York, and yet this original production of Into the Woods all these years ago, you were a part of that.

[1:10] Ben Rimalower: You were Rapunzel's's Prince on the National Tour.

[1:13] Jonathan Hadley: Oh, yes.

[1:14] Jonathan Hadley: And even before that, I was understudying it, and you know, we'll get into all of that.

[1:19] Ben Rimalower: Okay, so I want to hear from the beginning.

[1:23] Jonathan Hadley: I've had the best afternoon.

[1:24] Jonathan Hadley: It's a rainy afternoon in New York today, and I've pulled out all my memorabilia.

[1:30] Jonathan Hadley: You know, I'm from an old southern family.

[1:32] Jonathan Hadley: Nobody throws anything away.

[1:34] Jonathan Hadley: Y'all from God.

[1:38] Jonathan Hadley: I found reviews from the road.

[1:40] Jonathan Hadley: I found programs.

[1:42] Jonathan Hadley: I have so much crap.

[1:43] Jonathan Hadley: Oh, I want to go through it all.

[1:46] Ben Rimalower: I'm glad you do.

[1:46] Ben Rimalower: Go ahead.

[1:47] Jonathan Hadley: I'll have to describe it for the uh audio medium.

[1:50] Jonathan Hadley: Um, but maybe we can uh we can get photos of stuff and I can put it on social media when the episode comes out.

[1:55] Jonathan Hadley: Oh, cool.

[1:56] Jonathan Hadley: I I don't know.

[1:57] Jonathan Hadley: I I'm I don't know if everyone's like me, but I love to look at that stuff.

[2:01] Jonathan Hadley: I mean, I have here like I buy these like playbills on eBay, you know, just um random times during the run.

[2:08] Jonathan Hadley: This one is from let's see.

[2:11] Jonathan Hadley: I have so many of them now.

[2:12] Jonathan Hadley: This is January 89, and at that point from the Martin Beck Theater, now the Hirschfeld.

[2:12] Jonathan Hadley: And at that point, the cast was this the this is not the Fisher.

[2:22] Jonathan Hadley: I think this is nine.

[2:23] Jonathan Hadley: I think we were on the road by then.

[2:25] Jonathan Hadley: Yeah, so this is uh this is the Broadway cast that this time was Chip Zien, Cynthia Sykes was the baker's wife, and um Tom Aldridge and Bob Wessenberg were still there.

[2:34] Jonathan Hadley: Nancy Dusseau, my okay, my favorite childhood television diva, who I didn't even know was a Broadway star.

[2:41] Ben Rimalower: I didn't either, I didn't either, yeah.

[2:43] Jonathan Hadley: Right?

[2:43] Jonathan Hadley: I mean, she was at Muriel Rush.

[2:45] Jonathan Hadley: Yeah, um Barbara Brynn, Pamela Winslow was um Cinderella.

[2:50] Jonathan Hadley: Oh, okay, yeah.

[2:51] Jonathan Hadley: Yeah, and then uh and Maren Maisie was um Rapunzel's.

[2:57] Jonathan Hadley: Oh, I remember absolutely.

[2:58] Jonathan Hadley: Uh we kind of joined the the Into the Woods family around the same time.

[3:02] Jonathan Hadley: And I pulled one out here we'll talk about from the Parker Playhouse, Fort Lauderdale.

[3:08] Jonathan Hadley: This is our first preview where we text.

[3:10] Ben Rimalower: So wow we get to Okay.

[3:16] Ben Rimalower: So let's start from the beginning.

[3:18] Ben Rimalower: Before Into the Woods even came into your life, were you already like a Sondheim nerd?

[3:22] Ben Rimalower: Did you like know Sweeney Todd by heart?

[3:25] Ben Rimalower: What was your background with the with the master?

[3:28] Jonathan Hadley: I was basically weaned on Sondheim.

[3:30] Jonathan Hadley: Uh I grew up listening to uh all the albums I could.

[3:33] Jonathan Hadley: Of course, we had albums.

[3:34] Jonathan Hadley: I knew Pacific Overtures backwards and forwards as a little boy in North Carolina.

[3:34] Ben Rimalower: As a little boy in North Carolina, who who introduced you to Pacific Overtures in North Carolina as a little boy?

[3:44] Jonathan Hadley: My parents are both both educators, they're theater people, theater professors in colleges.

[3:51] Jonathan Hadley: So uh they had this amazing musical theater uh record collection, and I would just sit, you know, hands under my chin and listen to uh uh Lynn Carey and Glenis John's, you know.

[4:03] Jonathan Hadley: I don't know what my friends were listening to, you know.

[4:06] Jonathan Hadley: I mean that's probably intellectual, like Pacific Overtures.

[4:10] Jonathan Hadley: I mean, that's hard for me now, and I'm you know, 47.

[4:13] Ben Rimalower: I mean, that's quite a well that's interesting you say that.

[4:16] Ben Rimalower: That reminded me to tell you intellectual when we got to Charlotte Rae.

[4:19] Jonathan Hadley: That's uh something that came out.

[4:20] Jonathan Hadley: Oh my god.

[4:21] Jonathan Hadley: Okay.

[4:22] Jonathan Hadley: So uh so you already have this background.

[4:24] Ben Rimalower: Yeah and then um what happened?

[4:27] Ben Rimalower: Did you go to school and then move to New York?

[4:29] Ben Rimalower: Or what was the Yes?

[4:30] Jonathan Hadley: I went to the North Carolina School of the Arts to get rid of my accent.

[4:34] Jonathan Hadley: Well, they did a great job as I was in class with Mary Louise Parker and Joe Mantello was two classes ahead of me.

[4:41] Jonathan Hadley: So I was in that era, do the math, y'all.

[4:45] Jonathan Hadley: And uh uh then I moved right to New York, uh, got my equity card doing a a theater work show, TYA show, you know, most of us do.

[4:53] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[4:54] Jonathan Hadley: And then began this journey.

[4:56] Jonathan Hadley: So I was pretty much right out of school.

[4:58] Jonathan Hadley: I guess I was maybe 23, 24.

[5:01] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[5:02] Jonathan Hadley: And I went, you know, I hit all the open calls I could after have my equity card, and I went to an open call for A Little Night Music that was gonna be the Kennedy Center starring Lee Rennick.

[5:14] Jonathan Hadley: Oh wow.

[5:15] Jonathan Hadley: And it ultimately it never happened because she got ill and passed away.

[5:19] Ben Rimalower: Oh god.

[5:20] Jonathan Hadley: But uh Joanna Merlin was casting it.

[5:23] Jonathan Hadley: And I went in, of course, Henrik is my dream role.

[5:26] Jonathan Hadley: I I played the Chelsea kind of, so I but I've never played the role, but anyway, I went over that.

[5:31] Jonathan Hadley: Uh but I didn't get that.

[5:32] Jonathan Hadley: And then she remembered me and called me in for Into the Woods.

[5:36] Jonathan Hadley: So I remember going to see it when it was originally on Broadway when it first opened.

[5:42] Jonathan Hadley: And I thought, well, it's not really apart from me.

[5:45] Jonathan Hadley: I kind of fall between Rapunzel's's Prince and Jack and the Beanstalk.

[5:51] Jonathan Hadley: And that's exactly what she called me in for was the cover for Rapunzel's's Prince and Jack.

[5:56] Jonathan Hadley: So that was that Jeff Blumenkrantz track.

[5:59] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[5:59] Jonathan Hadley: Oh, exactly, Jeff.

[6:01] Jonathan Hadley: Yeah.

[6:03] Jonathan Hadley: So uh I, you know, the show had been running, and I was, you know, you you brought helped me bring back all these memories of the last few days anticipating this podcast.

[6:12] Jonathan Hadley: So much of this is coming back, and one great memory was the audition, which was like being in an old movie because it was on the stage of the Martin Beck.

[6:24] Jonathan Hadley: Oh my god.

[6:25] Jonathan Hadley: You know, I mean, we don't do that nowadays, right?

[6:28] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[6:28] Jonathan Hadley: I feel like that was sort of the end of that era, maybe in the late 80s.

[6:32] Jonathan Hadley: I don't know, because now they they can't afford to rent the theater, have the theater for auditions.

[6:38] Jonathan Hadley: But then I guess they had the theater.

[6:40] Jonathan Hadley: So I remember walking to the theater, you know, with a big inflatable boot on it.

[6:45] Jonathan Hadley: You know, that was so cool.

[6:47] Jonathan Hadley: And uh terrified but excited, and then waiting in the wings, and just like All About Eve, you know, they call you out on stage.

[6:55] Jonathan Hadley: I'm on the stage of the it of Into the Woods, you know.

[6:58] Jonathan Hadley: God, it's like you make your debut even if you don't get the part.

[7:01] Jonathan Hadley: Absolutely, you know, and you expect, you know, to see, you know, uh Betty Davis sitting out there, but no, it was it was Mr. Sondheim and Mr. LePine and uh Gem and Yani, and I guess the producers, I don't remember.

[7:13] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[7:14] Jonathan Hadley: And I remember singing, well, I don't remember what I sang.

[7:18] Jonathan Hadley: Whether they gave me something to sing or sang something.

[7:21] Jonathan Hadley: But I do remember Paul Geminiani stood up and came down to the front of the stage and said, Could you you sing the end of In Praise of Woman from A Little Night Music?

[7:33] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[7:34] Jonathan Hadley: And as we talked about, I was such a Sondheim nerd.

[7:37] Jonathan Hadley: I'm like, sure.

[7:40] Jonathan Hadley: Oh, they didn't the woman's, you know, I dunno it out.

[7:44] Ben Rimalower: Uh-huh.

[7:44] Jonathan Hadley: They were like, Great.

[7:45] Jonathan Hadley: And I was so proud of myself that I knew that, you know.

[7:49] Jonathan Hadley: Uh and I don't remember if I read anything.

[7:53] Jonathan Hadley: I can't remember, but uh shortly after, I mean I heard pretty quick, I got the job.

[7:57] Jonathan Hadley: It was amazing.

[7:59] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[8:00] Jonathan Hadley: Terrifying You must have just been, I mean, overjoyed, because this is pretty green in your time in New York to get this new Sondheim musical.

[8:09] Jonathan Hadley: I mean, kind of, but you know, also I think at that age I was like, Yeah, that's how it works.

[8:14] Jonathan Hadley: I'm moving to New York and I'm getting a Sondheim show.

[8:17] Jonathan Hadley: It's this this biz is easy, you know.

[8:19] Ben Rimalower: And so did how how much um you were cast as as the cover for those for those roles for Jack and Rapunzel's's Prince.

[8:29] Jonathan Hadley: Right, the standby basically, yeah.

[8:31] Ben Rimalower: And so um you uh how much rehearsal did you get before you were had to be ready to go on?

[8:39] Jonathan Hadley: Well, here's the thing, and this is another thing I pulled off my wall.

[8:42] Jonathan Hadley: I have the first day of rehearsal photograph.

[8:46] Jonathan Hadley: Has anybody shown you this?

[8:48] Ben Rimalower: No.

[8:48] Jonathan Hadley: Oh, we can put this on social media, it's the whole crowd.

[8:52] Jonathan Hadley: It's dated October 31st, 1988.

[8:55] Jonathan Hadley: Amazing, and right down front is Martha Swope.

[8:59] Jonathan Hadley: And of course, growing up as a theater nerd, I always wanted to be in a Martha Swope.

[9:04] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[9:05] Jonathan Hadley: And then in her, she's in the lap of Mr. Sondheim and Mr. LePine are there.

[9:09] Jonathan Hadley: There's Charlotte and Cleo, Mary Gordon Murray Ray Gill, and there I am in the back row next to Douglas Sills.

[9:17] Jonathan Hadley: And uh just brings back so there's oh David Warren.

[9:21] Jonathan Hadley: Oh, he was our assistant director.

[9:23] Ben Rimalower: Do you know David Warren?

[9:24] Jonathan Hadley: Not the actor David Warren.

[9:26] Jonathan Hadley: No, he's a great director.

[9:27] Jonathan Hadley: He's doing a lot of TV now.

[9:28] Jonathan Hadley: And he directed the first production of Harmony that I was in.

[9:35] Ben Rimalower: Oh, that was in San Diego, wasn't it?

[9:37] Jonathan Hadley: No, there was one we were going.

[9:38] Jonathan Hadley: That's a whole other podcast.

[9:39] Jonathan Hadley: Oh god, Broadway at Bell Park, and it was a disaster.

[9:43] Jonathan Hadley: Brian Darcy James and Kate Baldwin.

[9:46] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[9:46] Jonathan Hadley: That was David Warren.

[9:48] Jonathan Hadley: He was James Lapine's assistant.

[9:50] Ben Rimalower: Oh, okay.

[9:51] Jonathan Hadley: Um so was how um were you part of that entire rehearsal process for the for the road company?

[10:00] Jonathan Hadley: Yes, they had us, which was great.

[10:02] Jonathan Hadley: They had us in at the Minsk Studios we rehearsed.

[10:05] Jonathan Hadley: I don't know if you were here then, but were the big studios.

[10:09] Jonathan Hadley: It was 890 downtown.

[10:11] Jonathan Hadley: Yeah.

[10:11] Jonathan Hadley: The Minsk Studios overlooked Broadway.

[10:14] Jonathan Hadley: It's kind of where the Marriott Marquee is now.

[10:16] Jonathan Hadley: Okay.

[10:17] Jonathan Hadley: Uh and those were so we were rehearsing there, which was such a cool thing.

[10:21] Jonathan Hadley: Yeah.

[10:22] Jonathan Hadley: I was there for the whole uh experience, which was great.

[10:26] Jonathan Hadley: So we got to know all the cast, and uh, you know, I got to know uh Charlotte and Cleo, and uh I mean, are you interested in these guys?

[10:34] Ben Rimalower: Yes, I want to know everything about it.

[10:36] Jonathan Hadley: You're a mess, and I love it.

[10:40] Jonathan Hadley: Well did you know?

[10:42] Jonathan Hadley: I mean, were you like, oh, Cleo Lane, the great Cleo Lane, or did you have to like research her?

[10:47] Jonathan Hadley: I mean, I assume Charlotte you were more familiar with at least.

[10:50] Jonathan Hadley: Uh no, Cleo had already been nominated for um Edwin Drew.

[10:54] Jonathan Hadley: Oh, of course.

[10:54] Jonathan Hadley: She came to Broadway first with that.

[10:56] Jonathan Hadley: Yeah, so I knew her there, and she had just put out a CD of Cleo sings Sondheim.

[11:01] Jonathan Hadley: And it was a great album.

[11:03] Jonathan Hadley: Glorious.

[11:04] Jonathan Hadley: So all of the theater nerds, just the Sondheim fans.

[11:08] Jonathan Hadley: We're listening to that.

[11:09] Jonathan Hadley: We had that CD.

[11:10] Jonathan Hadley: I remember all my friends would listen to just she just a glory.

[11:14] Jonathan Hadley: She's still around, you know.

[11:15] Jonathan Hadley: She's voice.

[11:17] Jonathan Hadley: I don't think people appreciate nowadays how in that time when someone put out a CD of Sondheim music, everyone in the world that cared about Sondheim got the CD.

[11:27] Jonathan Hadley: It wasn't like now where there's, you know, I think it's cheaper to produce recordings now, especially because you can be all digital.

[11:34] Jonathan Hadley: So there's no none of no one can possibly keep track of all the albums that are coming out all the time.

[11:40] Jonathan Hadley: But in those days, we knew we got it right away.

[11:44] Jonathan Hadley: We memorized the album, you know, every track, every arrangement.

[11:48] Jonathan Hadley: And she did these interesting jazz interpretations of the song, so it was a new take on all of those.

[11:54] Jonathan Hadley: Yeah.

[11:54] Jonathan Hadley: So it was it was a really uh exciting, intense rehearsal period.

[11:58] Jonathan Hadley: I remember Mary Gordon Murray was doing the Broadway show at night and rehearsing our show during the movie, and there were quite a bit of differences.

[12:06] Jonathan Hadley: So she was it was a little like freaky.

[12:09] Jonathan Hadley: You know, yeah.

[12:10] Jonathan Hadley: Uh and then I got to be good pals with Charlotte Rae, for several reasons.

[12:17] Jonathan Hadley: Again, I think this is all is always coming back.

[12:20] Jonathan Hadley: Uh, she and I happened to have a friend in common.

[12:22] Jonathan Hadley: Her, I think as her nephew was married to a friend of mine from North Carolina, just randomly.

[12:28] Jonathan Hadley: But then she uh as uh since I was Jack's understudy, she uh and I would go off and work lines together.

[12:36] Jonathan Hadley: Got to be good buddies like that.

[12:38] Jonathan Hadley: We both needed as much practice in that as possible.

[12:41] Jonathan Hadley: And then I had forgotten this.

[12:43] Jonathan Hadley: This came back to me today.

[12:45] Jonathan Hadley: Sort of in the way you are with with Into the Woods.

[12:49] Jonathan Hadley: At that time, I was very much into the original cast of Three Penny Opera.

[12:55] Ben Rimalower: Oh, sure.

[12:56] Jonathan Hadley: And I had just discovered that album in CD.

[12:59] Jonathan Hadley: That's B. Arthur and La Delenia and Jerry Orbach.

[13:03] Jonathan Hadley: Gary Orbach and Charlie Ray.

[13:05] Jonathan Hadley: And B. Arthur.

[13:06] Ben Rimalower: Did you say B. Arthur?

[13:07] Jonathan Hadley: Yes, yeah.

[13:08] Jonathan Hadley: Joe Sullivan, right?

[13:09] Jonathan Hadley: Just Sullivan Lesser.

[13:10] Jonathan Hadley: Yeah.

[13:11] Jonathan Hadley: Yes.

[13:11] Jonathan Hadley: So I got as I got to know Charlotte.

[13:13] Jonathan Hadley: You know, Charlotte, she just she talks like Mrs. Jarrett, you know.

[13:17] Jonathan Hadley: That's my bad Charlotte Rae.

[13:19] Jonathan Hadley: But she's just, you know.

[13:21] Jonathan Hadley: And I would say, Charlotte, you know, I finally I was like, can I ask you about Three Penny Opera?

[13:27] Jonathan Hadley: And she was like, Oh, you know that.

[13:29] Jonathan Hadley: And I got all kinds of stories about Bertold Brecht and a lot of I just paid it up.

[13:37] Jonathan Hadley: So we got to be buddies during rehearsals.

[13:39] Jonathan Hadley: And oh, what made me think of it?

[13:41] Jonathan Hadley: Well, you said earlier, one time she said to me, you know, you're an intellectual Charlotte, I think, you know.

[13:50] Jonathan Hadley: Anyway, but she was great, and her portrayal of Jack's mother, has anybody talked about that yet?

[13:58] Ben Rimalower: No, uh uh.

[13:59] Jonathan Hadley: I saw like a tiny clip uh on YouTube, but that's all that I know of what she was like.

[14:05] Jonathan Hadley: Oh my lord, she in a good way just chewed the scenery.

[14:18] Jonathan Hadley: She started at the back of the theater, like in the parking lot, basically. And you heard this. You know, it got louder and louder. I remember Lapine would say it's the longest entrance in history. And she would run down in the middle of the stage, and it was really funny, but it went on forever, and it got longer and longer as the two.

[14:44] Ben Rimalower: Now, how present was Lapine, you know, or how strong was stage management, or was David Warren on the road with you? I mean, was there anyone keeping you crazy actors in line, not like run away?

[14:59] Jonathan Hadley: Well, he showed, well, of course, very much in the rehearsal process after the case. Yeah, sure. And he would come back on the road every so often, and so would David. David would put in new people. I remember Lapine would come out and say, I'm coming out to take out the improvements. And he also said, and I've always remembered this, even as I'm directing a lot now, it's very hard to have talented people in the ensemble because they're very creative and they keep adding quote improvements. So at the same time he was complimenting us, he would say, Stop doing that, you know.

[15:39] Jonathan Hadley: Yeah, basically. When you talk about differences, like you know, that poor Mary Gordon Murray was juggling simultaneously doing the Broadway and the tour. I mean, people have talked a little bit about how the concept for the baker and the baker's wife on the road was a little bit more middle American with Ray Gill and Mary Gordon Murray, as opposed to the kind of like upper west side Jews that they saw like Chip and Joanna as. Were there other kind of stylistic or like tone things that were sort of pronounced differences like that?

[16:10] Ben Rimalower: I think though I did hear what you talked about with Betsy Jocelyn about that. I think you hit it absolutely on the head, the difference in those that relationship of those characters. The rest, except for, well, Charlotte, I mean sorry, Cleo's portrayal was so different than anybody else.

[16:28] Jonathan Hadley: Yeah, that's which I can tell you. I have a great great story I want to tell you about that. To answer that question, physically the production was so different. Yeah. Broadway. And in fact, you know, I said I found these reviews. Yeah. I found one from the Philadelphia Gay News. I can't believe that even existed then. And I was like, why didn't I save this? It's dated fully 16th, 1990. And I wanted to share this because I thought it was interesting. He says, the author says the production currently on stage at the Forest Theater is a somewhat scaled-down version, necessarily so to meet the rigors of a traveling company. The sets are nowhere near as elaborate as was found in the Broadway original. In fact, they were pretty much standard road company issued.

[17:21] Jonathan Hadley: So I remember we did get critiques on the road for the set. It wasn't nearly as interesting as Broadway. But I did find out why I saved this because then he went on to talk about the actors, and he said, Oh, you know, Adam Gruper was the baker, Judy McLean is the baker's wife, Patty Ben Peterson was Cinderella, Tracy Katz has Little Red Riding Hood, feistier, funnier, bitchier, red could not be imagined. And then he says, and my favorite Jonathan Hadley as Rapunzel's's Prince, perfectly adorable. There you go. Beginning of the Matinee Adonis.

[17:58] Ben Rimalower: So I was adorable in Philadelphia in 1990.

[18:00] Jonathan Hadley: I don't doubt it. Physically, yeah. Yes, yes. No, and your adorableness, which has not changed. But I was just thinking about Judy McLean having done this because she's going out on tour as Joanne in Company. It's like, yeah. Great, it's great.

[18:22] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[18:23] Jonathan Hadley: So Judy, wonderful Judy McClain, of course, who was in Mamma Mia for years on Broadway and a great Paper Mill Playhouse diva and Evita and many great shows. We began as understudies, she was understudying a stepsister and understudied the Baker's Wife.

[18:40] Ben Rimalower: Oh, she started.

[18:41] Jonathan Hadley: Well, I didn't know that. And then we both moved into the roles. I was understudying Douglas Sills.

[18:49] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[18:49] Jonathan Hadley: When they left, they were kind enough to move us into the roles, which I thought, hey, that's just how it works in the biz. And I got out of Into the Woods and I realized no, but it doesn't always happen that way.

[19:02] Ben Rimalower: Well, and it didn't happen to her whole cast either, right? Because Cleo left and her understudy didn't take over, but Betsy came in.

[19:10] Jonathan Hadley: That's true, right? That's true, yeah. And same with, what did it was Adam Gruper had he been there as a standby before?

[19:19] Ben Rimalower: He had not.

[19:20] Jonathan Hadley: I think he came in and just put over that part. Yeah, that's a good point, yeah. But it was kind of a long tour. I mean, it's not it was must have been quite successful that you stayed on the road past people's original contracts and all that.

[19:34] Ben Rimalower: It definitely was, and back then, like a two-week run was a long run.

[19:39] Jonathan Hadley: Yeah. I went on to do the Jersey Boys tour, which I did for seven years, you know, and recently I know. And we sat down for months at a time. But back in the 80s, that just was not the case. So we were maybe three weeks in LA, I think, something like that. But you know, mostly they were one week or something. I mean, it's amazing, especially thinking about the show that Into the Woods is, because you think of something like Jersey Boys or Phantom of the Opera, you know, being kind of being this institution that can just park in a city and you know, just be there for a while. But for something that's more esoteric, intellectual, less kind of like populist, at least in its appeal, if not in its actual experience. It's impressive that Into the Woods was able to do that.

[20:30] Jonathan Hadley: I remember in Florida, which we opened at the Parker Playhouse in Fort Lauderdale and then went to Palm Beach, people would leave at intermission. The second act would start once upon a time and they'd be like, I already saw this. Let's go, and they would leave.

[20:48] Ben Rimalower: Wow, they came back and then left.

[20:50] Jonathan Hadley: That's the same thing. I know they talked about people leaving not realizing it, and you know, that they added the beanstalk and all to be continued, but then actually did come back, but you decided not. You know, the old folks in Florida, ah, we've seen it. Let's go. Amazing. It was wonderful.

[21:08] Jonathan Hadley: One thing, if you don't mind, I wanted to jump in about the back at the rehearsal process. Yeah. We even got on the road. Yeah. Again getting to know Cleo, who is an extraordinary person. She's so much fun. That's another part of the conversation, but her performance was just transformative. And you know, there are these things as you go through life, seeing art and creating art, they're things that really stick with you. I will never forget the one day when we put the first act together. And as a cast, we were all sitting, you know, to do the whole first act. I remember I was sitting on the floor like in the corner somewhere, and we heard Cleo Lane sing Stay with Me for the first time. And I can even get chills right now thinking about it was unbelievable. That voice that comes from her toes.

[22:13] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[22:16] Jonathan Hadley: Stay with me. You know, she had this and this wonderful actress Marguerite Lowell was Rapunzel's and they had this great connection. It was just moving. I've never ever seen anything like it. It was fantastic. And apparently there's a video of that somewhere on YouTube. Somebody bootlegged it all on the tour somewhere. If you can find it, I searched on it once and I couldn't find it again.

[22:40] Ben Rimalower: I will. I shall definitely find that. What did you guys have a like invited dress in New York before you left town that where every people locals came and saw you?

[22:54] Jonathan Hadley: Well, I don't remember. I don't know I don't remember if that was a thing then. I don't know. I do remember going to Fort Lauderdale and starting tech. Yeah. And we did a sits probe in the lobby of the Parker Playhouse. And I ran into recently I was on tour with another show, and I ran into an actress, Ann Rickenbacher, who was also one of the standbys, and I was playing, I happened to be playing the Parker Playhouse, and she said, Do you remember that sits probe? And over in the corner was this disheveled, almost homeless looking guy, and it was Stephen Sondheim sitting with like piles of paper and scrolling and listening and intense. We were like, that's Mr. Sondheim, he's here, he's over there. You know, it was so crazy.

[23:42] Ben Rimalower: Did but was there like a sort of local cult of Sondheim that greeted you when you'd go to these different cities? Did you sense that you were, you know, they anticipated in that way?

[23:53] Jonathan Hadley: No, there was not at all. There became, oh, and I know you talked to Tracy Katz. I didn't get to hear that. It hasn't come out yet, yeah. I've got her in the can. Yes, I remember there were people sometimes who would come dressed up as Little Red Riding Hood. I know she mentioned that. You know, there was that thing, but no, there was a lot of skepticism. In fact, you know, going through my little archives, oh yes, a review from the Grand Rapids Press that says songs are good, but Into the Woods not so charming. So people didn't completely love it. You know, they would say, Oh, the singers are good, but it's overly cute in the first act and pretentiously moralistic in the second. That was Grand Rapids.

[24:38] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[24:39] Jonathan Hadley: So I don't think we were ever kind of greeted like a Lin-Manuel would be or something like that.

[24:46] Ben Rimalower: That's so funny. Yeah, it's interesting. It seems to have grown in appreciation over the years.

[24:53] Jonathan Hadley: For sure. Did you feel though, like playing that second act? Not necessarily that it's pretentious or moralistic, but did you feel in some of those big roadhouses that like you would lose them with the sort of all the kind of ballads and the sort of, you know, last part of the last twenty-five minutes of the show was that an issue?

[25:16] Jonathan Hadley: Wow, that is an interesting question. Again, this is coming back how many years ago was that? It was down the 30 something five, yeah. Oh, I was five years old then. But anyway, all that coming back. I do remember because it's so ballad heavy. Yeah. In the second act, we'd be like, Oh, oh, they're gone, they're gone. I do remember that now. People weren't as initiated into that kind of show, I think, at that time. I do remember the tempos were a little slower on the road. That was always a bit of a fight. Randy Booth was our conductor, and he just felt with the lyrics, Sondheim was very difficult to follow if it flew by. And the theaters on the road, you know, are huge. Relatively small. So you're looking at these giant theaters, we were having Atlanta and St. Louis and Detroit. Giant. Our show was longer and they were always fighting that a little bit.

[26:17] Ben Rimalower: Does the size of the theater have to do with that with the lyrics and their tempo?

[26:22] Jonathan Hadley: It seemed to be with the sound, the way the sound would reach the back, you know, sound is different from now. But that was kind of his feeling. It kind of rolled through the theater. And if when you're the festival, you know, that just is going too fast for it seemed to.

[26:41] Ben Rimalower: That's interesting. But did you have body mics in that tour?

[26:45] Jonathan Hadley: Yes. They were enormous. Back in the day, they were the size of those cell phones back in the day, you know.

[26:54] Ben Rimalower: And what is it like to be a standby on the road? I mean, I imagine people having that as kind of a sweet job in the city where, you know, what is it you have to I know it changes or it's show to show, but whether it's a two-block radius or you just have to call. But you know, I could you could sort of imagine having a full life where you just sometimes go on stage and sometimes don't. But being on the road with all that entails, and then is it are you do you spend a lot of time like alone in a hotel room, or how did that work out?

[27:26] Jonathan Hadley: Yeah, absolutely. That's a whole different ball game. I stood by in the city and on the road. I remember we did a lot of baking in hotel rooms. Me and the other standby.

[27:38] Ben Rimalower: How do you bake in a hotel room?

[27:40] Jonathan Hadley: We would get little apartments, you know, and I remember baking cakes. That was something there was nothing much else to do. You know, you had to stay at the theater until your last character makes their last entrance.

[27:54] Ben Rimalower: Oh wow.

[27:55] Jonathan Hadley: That's usually the general rule. And Into the Woods, it was when they all come out again right before the end. So we have to leave 10 minutes before the show was over. You know, for a long time there was so much excitement that wasn't a problem. But as it got on and on, it did wear on a little bit. And I remember my first time going on though. Yeah. Was in Palm Beach, and Douglas got sick, I guess, and called out. I don't remember. And I had had no rehearsal. We'd been a little bit of understudies rehearsing in the lobby, like you do.

[28:30] Jonathan Hadley: Yeah. They called me, they threw me on. I didn't have my own costume. Douglas is probably a good two or three inches taller than I am. He's like 6'3. So I was literally swimming in his costume. I looked like Chuck Wagner's little baby brother. So it kind of worked out, but I jumped in, you know, and it's also this thing when you're standby in that situation, nobody in the rest of the company has ever seen you or heard you. Yeah, watching. So I remember they'd never heard a note come out of my body. And as I was singing "Agony," already terrified in this giant costume, I look over in the wings and there's the entire company, Cleo, Charlotte, Ev Ray Kill, everybody watching to see if I was any good, you know.

And that's like, thanks, guys, no pressure, really. I'll never forget that. That was terrifying. I mean, we well, I guess you said Palm Beach was only the second stop on the tour. That seems like because I know they talk about understudy rehearsals being a regular part of a weekly Broadway schedule, you know, regardless of whether anyone's out that week or not, just that it keeps happening so that the people stay, you know, fresh on the different roles they're covering. Um But is if you're doing short runs at these theaters, it seems like between teching and like it do you I would imagine understudy rehearsals are less regular on the road.

[30:01] Jonathan Hadley: Oh yeah, yeah, and that especially the beginning. Because we started in October, as that picture said. We opened before, way before Thanksgiving. So it must have been a short process. Then tech was really short and intense. No understudy rehearsals then. I know they were gonna start them soon, but I think every one of us got thrown on before rehearsal started. Poor girl understudying Cinderella had huge bruises on her thigh. I remember Margarita because we never she never practiced falling down the stairs or now it's funny, but at the time it was intense. Yeah. So but then as you go on, you do get understudy rehearsal on Thursday afternoons usually. Uh because there's no weekday matinees on the road, usually we'll do a five-show weekend.

Yeah. So yeah. And um did you did you come to enjoy playing one of those parts more than the other? What were you did you get your wish when you were um to borrow the phrase um when you when you were cast as Rapunzel's's Prince? Or no, for me it they were equal. I could have played either. I mean, I'm much taller than the Jacks than they so I knew they probably wouldn't catch me in that. Right but you cannot go wrong singing "Agony." I mean, it's just glorious. And that oh, that's a memory that came back today as I was out for coffee. Um I remember I did get a chance to work with Mr. Sondheim. He coached us on "Agony." And I remember him saying as we started to sing it, he stopped and said, Remember this song is a baccarole.

And I'm like, a jelly roll? What a baccarole? No, a baccarole. And I again I like the audition story. I was like, oh, I know what that is. You know, in Carmen, that baby song. That's a baccarole. So I knew what it was, and he said, remember that with the rhythm. "Agony" to it's not just one, two, three, one, two, three. It has this baccarole feel to it. So I said, Oh, of course, yes, Mr. Sondheim. I don't I don't know if I ever actually did it or not, but you know, it was like, Oh, I gotcha, yes, sir. So I've always remembered that. Whatever you say, you want to ta cha, I'll give it to you. Um, and I well, I guess that show probably would be even with the toughest crowd, kind of like uh, you know, uh a showstopper. Uh that song, yeah.

[32:29] Jonathan Hadley: Yeah, yeah. Um and how long were you uh standing by before you took over? I think Douglas, let's see, people started leaving six months. I think Cleo left, Cleo and Charlotte left about six months in. Douglas was maybe eight or nine, so I took over then and I think did it for about a year. Yeah. After that, and then you know, Betsy came in and she was just she she's a mess. No, she is just fantastic. I know everybody said I adore her. Yeah, I was gonna try to say something, but no, she's so fun. I was so thankful. She and she and Judy and I paled around a lot on the great, great time. And uh, did Chuck stay the whole time, or did you have a different Cinderella's prince? He did not. He's left about the same time, and the other understudy, James Weatherstone, took over.

So he and I were able to be the princes, become them at the same time. Oh, that's nice. Yeah, and we both lasted uh the rest of the tour. In fact, he met his current wife. She was the understudy for Little Red and Cinderella, and they're still married. Amazing. Amazing.

[33:35] Jonathan Hadley: Um okay, tell me your other uh Cleo Laine's story. Well, again, uh the "Stay with Me" was just extraordinary. Uh she uh she was great fun. Her real name, you know, is Clementine. Oh no. Yeah, and she's quite caught me really when you get her away from everybody. Yeah, you know, she gets this sort of thing going, you know. And we went on the bus, you know, it's she stayed long enough, so there were some bus trips, which are always rough. And you know, can I say this? Tell me if I can't say this. She loved penis jokes. No, please don't. Yeah, and she but she would always get on the bus, you know. Sometimes she'd sit by me and she goes, Yeah, Jonathan, you know any dick jokes. And I'd be like, Cleo, come on.

No, and she goes, All right, guy with a big dick walks in a bar, and I'm like, No, Cleo, no, you know what I mean? So we can and her real nickname is Clemmy. That's what the family calls her. Yeah. But um, she had and I remember you talking with Betsy some about the "Last Midnight." Yeah. Well, there are different versions of that. And on the road, it was very different, I think, and difficult because there wasn't the elevator at the end, you know, she disappears into the ground Broadway on the video. Well, you can't do that on the road. So it would go and the boom, crunch, exploded, and then she would just sort of stomp off stage in the smoke. And so one time, and Cleo had a hard time with that.

One time I remember I ran into her in the hallway of some giant theater, and you know they're very cavernous. Yeah. And I ran into her, she was in her big witch wig and her the beautiful costume. She was stomping down, and I said, What's wrong? And she goes, Oh, that song "Last Midnight." She said, It's like long, great sex with no orgasm. But I could see, I've thought about that over the years. Well, not in the work as sense, but in the sense of, you know, it does it is hard to find that giant ending to that. Yeah. And they um they fussed with it too, because there's that sort of alternate ending that Donna Murphy had in the version in Central Park. And sorry, it started with Vanessa Williams.

Uh and then Donna Murphy also had that. And it's hard for me to judge if it's an improvement because when you know the first one so well, it just sounds wrong and you throws you, you know. But but clearly they were trying to solve that problem, you know. Um yeah, and Cleo started it down. She'd go with that boom crowd, and she had like a 15 octave range. Oh yeah. And she'd start the bottom girl, and with this high little scream, it just still wasn't quite enough for her, you know.

[36:25] Jonathan Hadley: Well, she uh she understands uh, you know, delivering uh an audience uh the satisfaction, so you can't cheat that. Um, what about Charlotte? Was there was there any kind of like um, you know, backstage or dirty jokes? What was hers? She was lovely and funny. I remember she took when we played LA, she took us all to her home in Brentwood, and she was a big TV star at the Yeah, yeah. A big deal. She was very sweet, had a lovely spread for all of us at her house, and we walked in, I remember all her furniture was covered in plastic. I'm like, Charlotte, you're a big TV. This is like an old Jewish grandma house. And she's like, I don't even want to get messed up, you know. And her Tony nominations were in the bathroom, which I thought was hysterical.

You know. And uh she was we uh Christmas, we all chartered a little boat in Fort Lauderdale to go ride around sing Christmas carols, and she kept saying, Let's sing Jewish Carol! You know, so that's funny. And her TV friends would come to see her at the show and that was really cool backstage with the cast of "Facts of Life," you know, and all that. Yeah. Yeah. That must have that run of "Facts of Life" must have just ended when this going on. She was still at that peak of of TV stardom. So this was a great thing to get her back on stage. And then after the tour closed, you know how everybody stays close for a little while. Yeah. All of us went to see her, a bunch of us did, to see her at the classic stage company in "Happy Days," the Beckett Play.

Oh, right. And that's where she's buried in the mound of garbage or whatever. And she was really terrific. She's just a great actress. Yeah. Very funny and can do all the sitcom stuff, but she's very, very good. Yeah. So we stayed in touch for a while. I saw her just before she passed away. I was doing the Rothschild's at the York. And she happened to see it. And we had a nice little reunion. So that was lovely. Lovely.

[38:34] Jonathan Hadley: Yeah. Now you guys were in LA for quite a while with this tour, weren't you? Um over the holidays, I remember. Uh yeah, I found that program too at the music center of LA. I guess it was the Amazon. Yeah. Yeah, that was fun. And uh, you know, we thought we'd all be TV stars because we were in LA, and of course that didn't happen, but it was still great fun. I remember they had the poster up in my um middle school um music room. That was when we first knew what "Into the Woods" was because it said someone's been messing with your fairy tales and and uh, you know, and uh and it was great that great artwork. Are you from LA? I didn't. Oh, I forgot that. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah, from the valley. Um that was fun.

It was a big hit there. They yeah, I remember being really sad. I sort of only kind of took notice of it after it was over, and then you know, I was in middle school school. I hadn't really started like mobilizing to like see shows that my parents didn't take me to yet. But then I managed to steal the um VHS tape that had uh the PBS broadcast on it, and was like and eagerly watched that and was you know totally uh obsessed. Um and I think that I think that's key to why the show wound up, you know, kind of having this exponential uh impact because so many people got to experience it that way. That was actually fun for us because some of the cast members like Chuck Wagner went back to tape it, so the understudies got to go on.

So did oh, you said his understudy was James Weatherstone. At that time, I think actually was Douglas. Douglas Sills went on for then you got to go on for Douglas. Oh, how cool. Yeah, and you know, Douglas uh by the way, is he's such a terrific actor and so funny. And I did, you know, as I found my own reviews, I was looking at him and they were but really everything I did I stole from Douglas because he's just terrific. So I think he was great. It was fun. That was kind of his first gig too, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't remember what was right. Maybe "Seeker Garden," he went into that after that, maybe. Yeah. And then I mean I don't I know it was "Scarlet Pimpernel" when you know everybody really kind of was like obsessed with him. He was wonderful. And so of course Edwards Locast. Um and he was quite wonderful. Yeah.

[41:01] Jonathan Hadley: Yeah, tell me your feelings about Ray Gill, because he's another one that I mean, I I think I said this to to Betsy that like La Pine and Chip Zion and everyone spoke of him so Mary Gordon Murray, so uh reverentially and with such affection and and uh and apparently um I think it was uh Ira Weitzman had told me that that James had really wanted Ray as the baker originally, and I'm not I still don't really understand why he didn't do the role. He must have been doing something else because he had to be sold on ship. Yes, and that's actually how I knew him before. He was doing "Driving Miss Daisy." Oh yeah. He originated the role of the son of Boolean Boole, yeah. And a friend of mine was actually the Props mistress.

We were roommates, and our you know, at the end they feed Miss Daisy of pumpkin pie. Our refrigerator was full of pumpkin pie for a year. Yeah, yeah. Yes. So I had met Ray that way. He ended up on the road together, which is great. And you know, he was he used to be Kevin Klein's standby. He stood by for in in uh "Pirates of Penzance" and So Ray was this tall, gorgeous, honky dude. And by the time he was playing bully, he'd gotten, you know, a little dumpy, you know? He said, Yeah, I couldn't handle that anymore. He said, I started eating. Yes. So he was a little bigger, a little rounder, and that was sort of that, I think, as you characterize it, I think rightly the Midwestern sort of look. Yeah. His his baker was a little slower and a little like, oh, maybe we should go in the woods, you know, rather than the sort of neurotic New Yorker.

[42:47] Jonathan Hadley: Yeah. So and he was a sweetheart. It was very sad when he passed away. That was rough. And of course that was the height of the AIDS epidemic. So it was right in the middle of that. That was still on the road when he died. No, I think it was when we got back. But I mean, I guess I could tell the story. It was uh I don't think he would mind because he was very open about it. He got not well on the road and got tested for AIDS. We all everybody would you know that was just terrifying time. And he came back negative. So everything, and then when he got off the road, turns out that had been a false positive a false negative. So he tested positive when he got off the road and sick and he called all of us to kind of say, Okay, just double check from now on, and which was very nice.

He made sure that message got out to double check everything. I guess in those days the fear was still a little more um uh the science was less obvious to everybody. Where now, if you didn't have sex with somebody, you wouldn't necessarily be freaked out for being around somebody with AIDS. But uh back in those days, it there still was this in a sense, you know, more like early COVID or something where it was like, you know, what was your contact chain? That's the exact perfect analogy. And you know, the whole second act, I don't know if you've talked about this or others have, you know, it's often been uh aligned to the AIDS epidemic that they're running away from something. And um, you asked earlier, did Le Pine ever come out on the road?

When he did come out, he was always tinkering with the giant scene in the second act because it's a difficult scene to stage, you know, where everybody comes in and the giant ultimately kills the you know, Jack's wife and the steward and everything. Yeah, it's a difficult scene to stage, it's got everybody in it. It's all Le Pine, it's not Sondheim, it's all dialogue. So he was always trying to figure how to stage it better on the road. There were no platforms on the road, so it was all flat stage.

[44:53] Jonathan Hadley: Yeah. Uh also tinkering with the dialogue, because that was the message, which they he always told us is what do you do when there is a disaster? The giants, the royal family runs away, the witch tries to fix it, the others are confused, they don't know what to do. So it it was their answer of what was happening during the uh the AIDS epidemic.

[45:16] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. That's interesting. I mean, I have heard that um uh, you know, and then other people have said it could be anything, it could be nuclear proliferation, it could be climate change, you know, and obviously there's new resonances in today's world, but um, but to be um yourself, you know, a young uh darling of the Philadelphia gay news adorable.

[45:39] Jonathan Hadley: I think I was adorable, yes.

[45:42] Ben Rimalower: Um to be, you know, to be on this tour where literally the you know, leading man you start with uh, you know, goes home sick with AIDS, you know, as you find out while you're still on the road playing those scenes that must have been really kind of meta and intense.

[45:59] Jonathan Hadley: Oh yeah, and it it just you know, COVID, as you said, it's i it is a perfect analogy. You just have to live with it and find a way to live with it. But there's always this threat.

[46:08] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[46:08] Jonathan Hadley: And then the show, the themes of the show, it's it's certainly not as dark as it could get. It's it lightens, you know, it becomes fairy tales. But uh that was always there. That was there until at least I'd say this whole tour, which ended in sometime in nineteen ninety, I think.

[46:24] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[46:25] Jonathan Hadley: Yeah.

[46:30] Ben Rimalower: So did you um when you got back from this experience, uh, you know, did it did you were you now jaded going into the rest of your career having had this first.

[46:42] Jonathan Hadley: You know, I went and auditioned for I got auditions for every other Into the Woods. I never got cast and Into the Woods again. Really nowhere. Steven Sandheim cast me y'all, but no, nobody so I've never done it again. Uh I've directed it, you know, everybody's it's doing in high schools and colleges now.

[47:02] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[47:02] Jonathan Hadley: But uh and that was a good fun to re revisit it that way. But no, I never got into it. And then, you know, also, especially back then when you went on the road, when you're gone, you were gone.

[47:14] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[47:15] Jonathan Hadley: There was no way to contact anybody. So certainly the contacts of the people we made were terrific, but it was like disappearing for two years and then you have to I didn't realize that. You have to really start all over again, go back to the open halls and all that. I thought, well, here I am, everyone, here are my reviews. I'm adorable. Nobody cared. So it was a huge uh uh lesson in in showbiz.

[47:40] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[47:41] Jonathan Hadley: All things knock on wood turned out, but it was a big one. Your first one is uh it's hard. You all I think as a young person, I see them all in these young Broadway shows, and you're like, I'm set for life. Well, not quite, but you know.

[47:55] Ben Rimalower: What are the things that you um when you've directed into the woods, like w what are the um ways that you what are the things you've tried to impart to the casts?

[48:06] Jonathan Hadley: I mean, I it's I'm asking, I happened to talk today earlier today to Burke Moses, who um, you know, was fired from the final workshop playing Rapunzel's's Prince. Well, he had been this is such a whole complicated story. He was cast as Rapunzel's's Prince for Broadway, and then maybe you know this already, but but then Bob Westenberg was in the crucible at arena stage, so and Burke was going to be covering that role of the prince and the wolves. So they said, Well, you'll do this for this two-week workshop rather than your own part. And he felt that he floundered and they were unhappy with him, and then he got the call uh that he was being replaced for Broadway by Chuck Wagner, and um uh and he had a contract.

I mean, he was paid for the year. But he what he was talking to me about was how coming he was fresh out of acting school at Carnegie Mellon, and he'd been trained in like a nine-month Meisner process that was useless to him in landing the sort of punch lines and you know, getting to the end of the of the point in these um scenes as the prince.

[49:14] Jonathan Hadley: Yeah, yeah. And you know, he felt that he didn't learn that skill for years later. And um, I wonder how how you have guided your uh casts when you when you have you felt that's been a challenge for people to understand the the style of these characters in the fairy tale world, this you know I do find that in general.

[49:33] Jonathan Hadley: I also just happened to direct uh something rotten, a really talented bunch of college students, they were great, but they don't have this waka waka sort of sense of humor.

[49:43] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, vaudeville was the word.

[49:44] Jonathan Hadley: Yeah, a terrible net sort of the you know, Mel Brooks sort of and um not that into the woods is that, but it it certainly has it in there, it certainly can help.

[49:54] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, so found that some of that is just basic uh uh understanding of the jokes and saying, let's make this funny. It's okay to be funny.

[50:00] Jonathan Hadley: Yeah, find the humor and all of this. Uh it can be people can try to get really heavy about it, and people get so concerned about the singing of it, you know, belting things like the justifies the beans. That's like people freak out about that.

[50:14] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[50:16] Jonathan Hadley: Let's get to that in a minute. You know, what is the moment and what are you singing about? And uh, but I also, as we just talked about where the show came out of of that era of the 80s, I try to talk about that as well. Uh, and liken it to something in today's uh, you know, it's also just but yeah, yeah, it's it's interesting when you bring that up.

[50:38] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, that's um, and then you know, some of the old timers when they talked about the did you see the revival last year?

[50:46] Jonathan Hadley: Oh no, oh no, I didn't I missed it.

[50:48] Ben Rimalower: I saw the second revival, right?

[50:50] Jonathan Hadley: The 2000 and whatever that was.

[50:52] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, there was 2002, and then there was the off-Broadway one that was like really cool, and then the Fasco Theater, and there was one in the park, and then there was this city center one, and then they went.

[51:02] Jonathan Hadley: Well, I was on the road with something.

[51:04] Ben Rimalower: Oh, I was on the road with a play, and I missed it.

[51:07] Jonathan Hadley: Uh, but Brian Darcy's a good friend.

[51:09] Ben Rimalower: Oh, I should have seen.

[51:09] Jonathan Hadley: Yeah.

[51:10] Ben Rimalower: No.

[51:10] Jonathan Hadley: Yeah, no, I mean it was great to see, and I got to see a lot of times actually. So I got to see all these wonderful actors that you know went in and because it was still a such a simple encore staging. They were really able to just keep rotating the cast to keep it running.

[51:23] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[51:24] Jonathan Hadley: But some of the um complaints from some of the old timers, like Joy Franz was talking about Joy. We got to work together. She was she came in as a on the road too.

[51:34] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[51:34] Jonathan Hadley: She was very mad because her credits were not correct for that on um IVDB.

[51:40] Ben Rimalower: Um but she was saying that you know these they're they're not uh that they were like pe some of the characters, some of the actors were kind of dressing up the line to like add comedy, you know, instead of just kind of playing what's there.

[51:57] Jonathan Hadley: Um it's it seems like maybe people tend to go one way or the other in the wrong direction, either you know, not honoring the sort of vaudevillean elements that help tell the story, or kind of gilding the lily with kind of like business that is not the point.

[52:15] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I mean, even the simple lyric, you know, oh you know when you know she would go with you if there only were doors.

[52:21] Jonathan Hadley: That's funny.

[52:22] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[52:23] Jonathan Hadley: Well, and you know, you don't have to do too much to that. You gotta do a little something, but not you know, too big.

[52:30] Ben Rimalower: But there's there's plenty in there.

[52:33] Jonathan Hadley: Uh yeah, I see what you're saying.

[52:35] Ben Rimalower: Oh joy with the sample.

[52:37] Jonathan Hadley: If there only were doors, it's a it's it's a really good example because that can be so funny, and yet sometimes the lyric can slip by unnoticed.

[52:46] Ben Rimalower: And like what what do you think it is about?

[52:49] Jonathan Hadley: Like kind of like landing that point so that the audience gets that you know irony or whatever it is that's so funny there.

[52:56] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, or the reality of looking up at this tower and there are no doors.

[53:01] Jonathan Hadley: How am I gonna get there?

[53:02] Ben Rimalower: And how's she gonna?

[53:03] Jonathan Hadley: Oh, you know she would go with you, there's only doors, help, you know. I mean that kind of thing.

[53:09] Jonathan Hadley: It's just yeah, you know, yeah.

[53:11] Ben Rimalower: You mentioned the tasks unachievable, and then you get into all of that, but uh uh to me is the reality of that moment, you know.

[53:18] Jonathan Hadley: Just don't let it go, just see it. And again, I stole that from Douglas Sills. Thank you, Douglas Sills.

[53:24] Ben Rimalower: And do you you know, uh some of the actors have talked about when they did long runs in this show, like um, you know, getting into a rut where they found something that landed and that they loved and then cherished and then got static, or you know, it and then it didn't keep it stopped getting the laugh, and then they wanted the laugh back, and the harder they worked the worse it was.

[53:46] Jonathan Hadley: Yeah, yeah. Did was being on the road can did that help with that because things are mixed up automatically, whether you like it or not, so you're constantly kind of in a fresh space, literally.

[53:58] Jonathan Hadley: I mean, a hundred percent. Audiences change, theaters change. Uh again, I mean, doing Jersey Boys for that long up here in seven years, as soon as the show starts to get a little tired, or you get tired, you're in a whole new town. You're in a whole new dressing room, you have a whole new crew, everything is new, and the jokes. Uh, you know, you have things that do you know work, but also some crowds get some things and some crowds don't.

[54:25] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[54:26] Jonathan Hadley: Uh some uh uh regionally it's also very different. Some parts of the country are laughers and some are not.

[54:32] Ben Rimalower: And it's absolutely true.

[54:34] Jonathan Hadley: I yeah, I remember we played at Judy McLean's hometown in in uh Scranton, Pennsylvania, and they all just stood sat there very stone-faced.

[54:44] Ben Rimalower: And that she's like, Yep, those are my people.

[54:48] Jonathan Hadley: They're just not big laughers, you know. And you learn that as you go, and it changes your performance. And uh to me that keeps it, it keeps it fresh.

[54:56] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah.

[54:57] Jonathan Hadley: Wow.

[54:58] Ben Rimalower: Um, wow.

[54:59] Jonathan Hadley: Well, you're you're a fresh, a fresh take. I l I love hearing your stuff. I can't believe wow, there's there's so many. I mean, uh any uh any more memorabilia you want to share with me.

[55:11] Jonathan Hadley: Uh I have the programs and those were the reviews I found. Oh, I found our uh uh you know the insert that has everybody's pictures. We all had big eighties hair.

[55:20] Ben Rimalower: Oh, I love it.

[55:22] Jonathan Hadley: But my hair is enormous.

[55:24] Ben Rimalower: Oh, please send me that.

[55:27] Jonathan Hadley: Look at us all. I look like I'm 11 years old. But it but anyway, it was great.

[55:32] Ben Rimalower: Oh, gorgeous.

[55:37] Jonathan Hadley: Yeah.

[55:38] Ben Rimalower: Do you have any merch where they're where they're like hoodies or anything?

[55:41] Jonathan Hadley: Oh, I have a show jacket.

[55:43] Ben Rimalower: Oh, I want to see it.

[55:44] Jonathan Hadley: Oh, I still have it. I chucked it away somewhere, but picture and send it to me.

[55:48] Jonathan Hadley: Yeah, you know, we used to they used to encourage us to wear those around towns.

[55:52] Ben Rimalower: Oh, yeah, free advertising.

[55:54] Jonathan Hadley: And they were these leather sleeves, you know, like said R prints on it, and people would go, Hey, you with you with the you're with Prince's band.

[56:04] Jonathan Hadley: Anyway, literally people stop here.

[56:07] Ben Rimalower: Amazing.

[56:09] Jonathan Hadley: Oh, that's great. You brought back such wonderful memories. This is great.

[56:12] Ben Rimalower: Oh, thank you for sharing them, Jonathan. Um, it's so good to talk to you as always.

[56:18] Jonathan Hadley: Absolutely.

[56:19] Ben Rimalower: Um, well, I will I'll let you know when this is up. I know everyone's going to enjoy it as much as I have.

[56:24] Jonathan Hadley: Thank you.

[56:29] Ben Rimalower: Thank you for listening to Giants in the Sky, how Sondheim and Le Pine went into the woods on the Broadway Podcast Network. Look out for episode 41 with Jackie Dankworth, Cinderella in the original London cast, and Cleo Lane's daughter.