This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Ben Rimalower: Broadway Podcast Network presents Giants in the Sky: How Sondheim and Lapine Went Into the Woods.

[0:06] Ben Rimalower: With me, Ben Rimalower.

[0:08] Ben Rimalower: Today's guest, Jacqui Dankworth, Cinderella in the original London cast, and Cleo Laine's daughter.

[0:14] Ben Rimalower: Once upon a time.

[0:20] Ben Rimalower: Jacqui Dankworth created the role of Cinderella in Richard Jones's original West End production of Into the Woods in 1991 after having watched her mother, jazz and stage legend Cleo Laine star as the Witch on the U.S. National Tour.

[0:34] Ben Rimalower: Jacqui also played Beth in the 1992 Leicester Haymarket production of Stephen Sondheim and George Firth's Merrily We Roll Along, available on J Records, for whom she also recorded Godspell, Cabaret, and the title role in Sweet Charity.

[0:50] Ben Rimalower: In addition to following in the footsteps of her parents, enjoying a thriving career on record and on stage as a jazz singer, Jacqui has enjoyed success as an actor with the Royal Shakespeare Company, the National Theatre, and multiple times both on and off London's West End, as well as on Showtime's The Borgias.

[1:07] Ben Rimalower: She was appointed member of the Order of the British Empire, M.B.E.

[1:17] Ben Rimalower: Well, I am so thrilled to talk to you.

[1:19] Jacqui Dankworth: Actually, it's such funny timing that I heard that from you because I just got on eBay my souvenir program from Into the Woods that you were in.

[1:30] Ben Rimalower: Is that a coincidence?

[1:30] Jacqui Dankworth: Is it a coincidence?

[1:32] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, that's so weird.

[1:35] Jacqui Dankworth: I mean, I had, um, because I think it's a while ago that I reached out through your mother's website, and then I started just like stabbing in the dark because I didn't have, um, you know, um, but then all of a sudden, there you were in my inbox, and it's wonderful.

[1:53] Jacqui Dankworth: Um, but and also I realized I didn't realize rather how closely, um, timed it all was for you, uh, when I got your email that you said that you had seen your mother, Cleo Laine, the great Cleo Laine, as the Witch in the national company in the United States.

[2:09] Jacqui Dankworth: That was, they opened in, um, the summer of eighty-nine, and it was a year later you were cast as Cinderella in the original West End production.

[2:18] Jacqui Dankworth: Yeah, yeah.

[2:19] Jacqui Dankworth: So it was a very Into the Woods time for you, it sounds like.

[2:19] Jacqui Dankworth: It was.

[2:23] Jacqui Dankworth: And funny enough, I, uh, because Mum and Dad used to have an apartment in New York, so we often used to come over, you know, to be with Mum and Dad when they were touring, working there, and, um, so I heard about Into the Woods, and I went on my own, actually.

[2:41] Jacqui Dankworth: I think I went on my own, and I just, I was just totally entranced by it, and I thought to myself, I want to be in that show.

[2:51] Jacqui Dankworth: So, and it was, it was Joanna Gleason as well.

[2:54] Jacqui Dankworth: Um, she was just, the whole thing was just so brilliant and so moving.

[3:00] Jacqui Dankworth: And, um, so I remember practicing sort of eight hours a day, thought that I wanted to play a baker's wife.

[3:08] Jacqui Dankworth: And so I learned all those songs, and they said, "Well, you're not right for her, but you're, you know, we'd like you to do Cinderella," so it kind of worked, but, and I was happy, I didn't care, I just wanted to be in the show.

[3:19] Jacqui Dankworth: Yeah.

[3:20] Jacqui Dankworth: I'd have done anything in it.

[3:21] Jacqui Dankworth: Um, so yeah, that was Richard Jones's production.

[3:25] Jacqui Dankworth: That was, you know, that was it. We were fated by the, was it the Iraq War, I think it was the Iraq War.

[3:33] Jacqui Dankworth: Um, and so a lot of Americans stopped coming over at that time, and the show just folded after six months.

[3:41] Jacqui Dankworth: Um, but it was very, very different to the American, uh, yeah, especially in design.

[3:49] Ben Rimalower: So, um, talk to me about, um, getting to see, uh, your mom in the tour.

[3:56] Ben Rimalower: Where did you go see, like, the first run-through that they did, um, in New York before going on the road, or where did you see it?

[4:05] Jacqui Dankworth: No, I do know, I wish I'd thought about that.

[4:08] Jacqui Dankworth: I can't remember where it was.

[4:10] Jacqui Dankworth: I think it was possibly in somewhere like Palm, I think it was Palm Springs or something like that.

[4:16] Ben Rimalower: Oh yeah.

[4:16] Jacqui Dankworth: Oh, Beach in Florida where they opened the very beginning.

[4:21] Jacqui Dankworth: Yeah, that's where I went, uh, because I remember walking with Mum on the beach there.

[4:25] Jacqui Dankworth: So that's where it was.

[4:27] Jacqui Dankworth: Um, and she was brilliant.

[4:31] Jacqui Dankworth: She was very funny and, um, you know, just, I mean, very different, but she was just Mum doing the way, I mean, she was, you know, she was, it kind of suited her because I always think of her as a witch, actually, in the nicest possible way.

[4:47] Jacqui Dankworth: Yeah, magical, a sorceress.

[4:50] Jacqui Dankworth: She is a sorceress, she's a very powerful woman.

[4:53] Jacqui Dankworth: Um, I mean, this was a period of a lot of theater work for her because this was pretty much right after she had done Mystery of Edwin Drood on Broadway.

[5:01] Jacqui Dankworth: Um, and also around the time when her Sondheim album came out.

[5:06] Ben Rimalower: Um, and did this, was this, uh, I mean, I know she had done theater over the years and stuff, but was there an intent to make that more of a focus at this phase in her career?

[5:19] Jacqui Dankworth: I mean, I don't know.

[5:20] Jacqui Dankworth: I know she played, she was, she was in, um, A Little Night Music as well around that time.

[5:27] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[5:27] Jacqui Dankworth: So I think it must have been.

[5:29] Jacqui Dankworth: Um, I think it was hard on, uh, her and Dad because it meant that they were separated quite a lot.

[5:36] Jacqui Dankworth: Um, but I think it was, I think it was definitely, I think one of the regrets for Mum was not getting into the movies, you know, getting into, um, but so I, but I think theatre was very dear to her heart because she, of course, she played Julie in Show Boat in the West End.

[5:55] Ben Rimalower: Yes, that was, I understand that that's what launched her in America because, yeah, someone heard her singing that and that's was the beginning of her career in America, I believe.

[6:07] Jacqui Dankworth: I read that somewhere.

[6:09] Jacqui Dankworth: Um, but I don't, I don't know if that was, uh, you know, I know that because throughout her career she's always done a lot of acting.

[6:17] Jacqui Dankworth: So, um, I guess maybe it was just synchronicity that a lot of things came along with.

[6:22] Jacqui Dankworth: I guess I'm sure the tone, you know, did she win the Tony Award?

[6:26] Jacqui Dankworth: Did she win a Tony Award for that?

[6:26] Jacqui Dankworth: She was nominated, was she?

[6:32] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[6:32] Jacqui Dankworth: Um, and I'm sure that sort of spurred her on to do more.

[6:37] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[6:39] Jacqui Dankworth: Yeah.

[6:40] Jacqui Dankworth: Yeah.

[6:41] Jacqui Dankworth: People loved her on that album.

[6:42] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[6:43] Jacqui Dankworth: Um, I mean, well, the also the cast, I've talked to, they haven't released the episodes yet, but I've had conversations with some of the members of the national company.

[6:51] Jacqui Dankworth: Uh, and they all idolized her so much and talk about standing in the wings and watching her sing and how hilarious and warm she was, and even though she was the star of the company, that she was such a, um, salt of the earth that made them all uncomfortable, even though they were in awe of her.

[7:11] Jacqui Dankworth: And, uh, uh, Jonathan Hadley was saying that, um, she was always so pissed about, um, The Last Midnight because she felt it didn't have an ending, and that one time she, because that she would, she would sing the song and she would really have them, and then it has this, you know, kind of, uh, you know.

[7:30] Jacqui Dankworth: I mean, I guess Bernadette Peters had done it kind of just like a shriek at the end, but of course you're looking at that, you know, what, four octave range or whatever.

[7:37] Jacqui Dankworth: So she sang this, you know, stratosphere notes, but it still wasn't, it didn't have, I guess what she considered a showbiz ending.

[7:48] Jacqui Dankworth: Yeah.

[7:48] Jacqui Dankworth: So she would storm off in frustration, and he said one time that she passed him, uh, off stage and she said, "It's like having the most wonderful, fabulous sex for hours and no orgasm."

[7:59] Jacqui Dankworth: Is that what Mum said?

[8:00] Ben Rimalower: Yes, yes.

[8:02] Jacqui Dankworth: I'm blocking my ears, I'm blocking my ears.

[8:09] Ben Rimalower: You don't like to think about that about your mom.

[8:13] Jacqui Dankworth: Well, only in art, only in art.

[8:16] Jacqui Dankworth: No, it's great.

[8:16] Jacqui Dankworth: I'm always kidding.

[8:18] Jacqui Dankworth: But, um, well, that's a, that was a, yeah, brilliant description of it.

[8:22] Jacqui Dankworth: Um, she was, the thing about Mum was she was so relaxed.

[8:26] Jacqui Dankworth: I think she had such confidence in her own ability, and, um, I think she's almost zen-like.

[8:33] Jacqui Dankworth: I mean, she's still like, she's 96 now, and, um, you know, very, very, very frail, but still so loved by everyone that who looks after her, and yeah, so she's got this kind of zen-like quality, which I, I don't, I haven't, I definitely haven't inherited where she's so, she's just very calm and, um, and I, I can tell you a story.

[8:33] Jacqui Dankworth: We were on the road with Mum and Dad, and, and, uh, we'd stop, we were driving in convoy with the rest of the, we know, with the rest of the musicians and the road manager, and my Dad was at the beginning, the head of the convoy because my Dad loved to drive, and so he prided himself in having the map, you know, and driving.

[8:33] Jacqui Dankworth: So they pull over on the hard shoulder and, uh, because he's got lost on the map, so he pulls over, gets out of his car to speak to his road manager behind, Elliot, and he forgot that he was in an automatic car, so he'd left it in drive.

[8:33] Jacqui Dankworth: So my Mum's reading the newspaper in the front on the left, my brother and I in the back, and my brother screams, "The car's moving! The car's moving!"

[8:33] Jacqui Dankworth: So my Mum carries on reading the newspaper, doesn't look up, says, "Go tell your father." That's how relaxed she is.

[8:33] Jacqui Dankworth: So then, so I wind the window and I go, "The car's moving!" and I see my Dad in the distance running, you know, a mile, he's after the, and this car was heading towards a ditch, and so I sort of jump over to the front and steer the car away from the ditch, and my Mum just carries on reading.

[8:33] Jacqui Dankworth: But that kind of sums her up in a way, which is why I'm telling you about it.

[10:15] Ben Rimalower: Well, it must have served her well. I mean, because God knows one aspect of show business alone, uh, if you only focus on theater or you only focused on jazz or you only focused on pop music or you only focused on, you know, running a venue, I mean, any one of those things could be a lot of strife, you know, and being able to navigate all of that as a woman, as a woman of color, uh, around all over the world.

[10:42] Jacqui Dankworth: I mean, she must have had to put up with so much, uh, in her way.

[10:46] Jacqui Dankworth: Yeah.

[10:47] Jacqui Dankworth: I mean, she was born in nineteen twenty-seven.

[10:49] Jacqui Dankworth: My, I, uh, God, Mum's probably gonna tell me off.

[10:52] Jacqui Dankworth: I've told you her age now anyway, so, but, um, she'll tell me off about that as well.

[10:56] Jacqui Dankworth: But she, yeah, she was born in nineteen twenty-seven and into a mixed-race family in nineteen twenty-seven, can you imagine?

[11:03] Jacqui Dankworth: And so my uncle, her brother, said to me that, um, if there were any racist comments, it was Cleo, well, she was called Clementina at that time, Clemmy, they called her Clemmy.

[11:14] Jacqui Dankworth: It was Clemmy that used to go and beat everyone up.

[11:17] Jacqui Dankworth: I mean, he wasn't telling, he, I'm telling you the truth, it was her.

[11:21] Jacqui Dankworth: She, if anyone gave them jip, she would just, you know, get her sort of metaphorical boxing gloves on and, and, and so she was tough, you know.

[11:31] Jacqui Dankworth: She brought, she was brought up tough, and but she had that spirit as well.

[11:35] Jacqui Dankworth: So yeah, she still has actually.

[11:38] Jacqui Dankworth: We have competition still to see who can sing the highest.

[11:42] Jacqui Dankworth: Those are the high notes.

[11:44] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[11:45] Jacqui Dankworth: That should be the first to go usually.

[11:47] Ben Rimalower: That's incredible.

[11:48] Jacqui Dankworth: No, she could still do it.

[11:50] Jacqui Dankworth: And so, um, my husband, Charlie Wood, he's a fine jazz musician, and, um, he, we go over and play, we go, he comes over and plays music.

[12:00] Jacqui Dankworth: We play so all her repertoire, well not all, but three, we have some special songs like "Sunny Side of the Street," we always do "I've Got a Crush on You," "Tea for Two," that's another one.

[12:14] Jacqui Dankworth: And then, and then from time to time we have, uh, I have a competition with her to see who can sing highest.

[12:20] Jacqui Dankworth: And she always wins still.

[12:23] Jacqui Dankworth: She's got this freak instrument that can just, now even, you know, when she has, she's not singing, she can just, yeah, so there you go.

[12:34] Ben Rimalower: Amazing.

[12:35] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[12:36] Ben Rimalower: What, um, uh, uh, you saw the show on Broadway and then you got to see, uh, your mom do it.

[12:44] Ben Rimalower: But then obviously your true deep study of the piece came when you got cast as Cinderella, and, and I mean, I would love to do a whole second season of the podcast on that production and everything about it.

[12:56] Jacqui Dankworth: But I am curious, um, particularly in the role uh uh uh of the witch and seeing that evolve with the focus on your mother, but even in any aspects, you know, what were sort of the things that struck you uh working on that, either how it changed your appreciation of the material or what you noticed about the different approach, you know.

[13:18] Jacqui Dankworth: Um Richard Jones was very strict about not allowing any influence from uh uh Sondheim students uh in the rehearsal room because I think with Sonny in the Park with George had been, you know, I think the director had I think uh Steven was uh was in the rehearsals, and I think it it it caused you know lots of confusion from a lot of the actors and um and so Richard Jones sort of made a decision, and but of course Julia McKenzie played the witch very very close to Steven Sondheim. She's she used to tell us she was on the phone to every night to tell us what was going on.

[14:04] Jacqui Dankworth: Oh dear dear dear. Um so he was kind of still involved, but I remember backstage um during the dress rehearsals, Stephen was there I believe with James Lapine. It was James Lapine was there.

[14:23] Jacqui Dankworth: And um and there's a scene where Cinderella the ugly sisters are are are you know tearing her hair and look at her clothes, look at her, you know I can't remember the words now but look at her hair look at her and um I've been directed by Richard Jones to do it in a certain way and Stephen and James called us over in in I think we were in the bar you know at the Phoenix and said no no no you shouldn't do it that way. This is how you're gonna get the laugh you know this is you know so we did it a different way and during the dress rehearsal and Richard Jones says why are you doing it like that and of course then we're in this terrible position we didn't know what to say and we all went but so you know it uh I think he was right I have to say I think he was right that he got that that was where that was where the the laugh was or the tension or um so but that was all going on.

[15:17] Jacqui Dankworth: I I don't know it um Melda Staunton played the Baker's wife and um I mean she was absolutely brilliant in it but I know that she apparently she was asked loads of times to play the Baker's wife I'm sure I'm not speaking up turn because it's but uh and she kept saying no no no I can't do it no and then finally she was she was um persuaded to play and then of course then she went on to to play Rose in um uh you know uh help me out Gypsy Gypsy, yeah.

[15:51] Jacqui Dankworth: Um so that was the beginning of her relationship with with Steven Tom Land. I I I I knew him through merrily we roll along as well.

[15:58] Jacqui Dankworth: Um yeah, sure. You were Beth at the lesson.

[16:01] Jacqui Dankworth: Yeah, less yeah. Um so I got to I got to know him quite well.

[16:06] Jacqui Dankworth: It was I mean for me it was uh it was very high for me. I had never sung that high, so I was really surprised that they cast me.

[16:15] Jacqui Dankworth: Yeah. So I I try to get lots of tips from mum, you know. Sing through your nose, pretend you're a cat. You know, it's not so I was staying I was doing my fair lady in Cheltenham and uh and I was the landlady could hear all these cat noises coming out from the room. I think she thought I'd gone bonkers.

[16:36] Ben Rimalower: Do you mean to tell me that Cinderella is a higher role than Eliza Doolittle?

[16:43] Jacqui Dankworth: No, it's about the same actually. It is about the same, but it's not my natural voice. Um but yeah, so I was surprised I was casting that as well.

[16:53] Jacqui Dankworth: So I had to learn to sing sing high. And when I listen to Into the Woods Now and I listen to myself, it's like a different person singing.

[17:00] Ben Rimalower: Um I hear I hear your mother in in your voice, and and it's funny, I almost hear it more there in that soprano stuff than I do in like your jazz recordings or like that um album you made of Sweet Charity, uh which is so great, and and you're such a wonderful charity, but you I think you sound more like Cleo as Cinderella than growing up, really.

[17:23] Jacqui Dankworth: Oh how interesting. I maybe that's just my weird ear, but maybe it's just the high the vibrato or something on the high notes.

[17:30] Jacqui Dankworth: But um and what was the and it was a wonderful production, it was very, very different. And I think Richard Jones wanted to strip a strip, he wanted a different kind of fairy tale. Is it the Grimm's fairy tale? You know, that where where it's kind of really quite harsh.

[17:44] Jacqui Dankworth: And and my mum came to see it, and she said she really missed she preferred the American I shouldn't say that, should I? I think she loved the beauty of it. I think because it was utterly beautiful. It was like a pop-up fairy, it was like one of those beautiful pop-up books, wasn't it?

[18:03] Ben Rimalower: Yeah with the glitter and the trees and the lighting, and oh my god.

[18:07] Jacqui Dankworth: And Richard Jones went for a very stark, we were all lit from underneath, spotlights from underneath, which wasn't very flattering either, you know, that spotlight underneath.

[18:18] Jacqui Dankworth: Um, but I mean it's difficult when you're in a production to but I I believe it was a brilliant production. Um certainly a melder was wonderful in it.

[18:30] Jacqui Dankworth: Julia McKenzie said she she struggled with the witch. Um I don't know why, but she said she found it a really difficult part.

[18:40] Jacqui Dankworth: Um may I I don't know. I maybe she didn't feel like she was glamorous enough or something, I don't know, because you know, you've got to turn into this glamorous uh person, uh a glamorous witch, haven't you?

[18:55] Jacqui Dankworth: So it is a departure to cast her. I mean, you know, because your mother is a glamorous figure, yeah, Peters, and um and that was a different take, and also just certainly vocally.

[19:08] Jacqui Dankworth: I mean, I think of Julia as this sort of um more you know, soprano kind of um maybe soprano is not always the case because I guess she plays lower uh Jesse Pros, but but not the kind of jazz belt, you know, uh you know, though very classically trained.

[19:24] Jacqui Dankworth: Yeah, very um Do you know she was so kind to me, Julie McKenzie? Um because I you you won't believe this, but I lost my my dog during into during into the woods when I was playing Cinderella and um and she she was stolen.

[19:38] Jacqui Dankworth: My my dog was stolen. Oh wow. And um and w I I believe it happened in the woods right near my parent where my parents live in Milton King's, and we'd been I'd been staying there, uh, and my my mum and dad had a housekeeper and they were looking after my dog and they let it out in the morning and it ran off.

[19:58] Jacqui Dankworth: But they're in these massive woods right near it. So every night after the show of Into the Woods, I would drive into the woods with friends calling Nelson, Nelson, and so it was so weird and and very upsetting.

[20:12] Jacqui Dankworth: And Julie Mackenzie is a mad dog person. Uh she's got about you know, she's she had about four or five dogs at the time, and she said, use my dressing room anytime, just come down.

[20:23] Jacqui Dankworth: So I was in sitting in her dressing room whenever I wasn't on stage, I was bringing back to see dogs home and all these dogs homes, um, ticking them off lists and strange, isn't it?

[20:35] Ben Rimalower: What you yeah.

[20:37] Jacqui Dankworth: It was so weird going into the woods after the show.

[20:40] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[20:41] Jacqui Dankworth: It was creepy as well.

[20:43] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[20:44] Jacqui Dankworth: Yeah, wow. Um be careful of the wolf.

[20:47] Ben Rimalower: Um did you uh ever see any of the other productions later on, like the one in Regents Park or uh the film.

[20:57] Jacqui Dankworth: I'm pretty sure I saw I think I saw Sophie Thompson at the Don Mah warehouse.

[21:06] Jacqui Dankworth: Oh right, yeah. There was that uh was the Bob Crowley uh production.

[21:10] Jacqui Dankworth: Yeah. I saw that, but um that was a I guess they call that an off uh the equivalent of an off-Broadway venue do they on my warehouse.

[21:20] Jacqui Dankworth: I don't know. Um but I didn't see Regent's Part.

[21:24] Jacqui Dankworth: Um stupidly I should have gone. Um I think they actually filmed it, so you you still can.

[21:29] Jacqui Dankworth: Um but um Is it good?

[21:32] Ben Rimalower: Uh you know, I didn't I haven't watched the I can't believe I'm saying it on the thing. Maybe I'll edit it out.

[21:36] Jacqui Dankworth: But I haven't watched that film, but I watched I saw that production when they did it uh in Central Park in New York with an American cast with the same uh what do you call it?

[21:46] Jacqui Dankworth: Um steampunk uh style. Uh so it was very cool.

[21:51] Jacqui Dankworth: Um uh we also had a really interesting production by a company called the Fiasco Theatre Company, where it was a very small cast with a lot of doubling, like a lot of doubling, you know, across genders and only sort of found objects as set and costume and props pieces, like the stepsisters were um Levelour blinds that were their ball gowns.

[22:17] Jacqui Dankworth: I mean it was all like as if it was very much like you know what kids could put a show on.

[22:21] Ben Rimalower: Oh, okay.

[22:23] Jacqui Dankworth: Um it was very cool.

[22:25] Jacqui Dankworth: So it's interesting when I hear you talk about um like your mom's reaction or people's reaction to Richard Jones' production because I think the piece supports you know having all these different interpretations, you know, and especially because um James Lapine directed the original and the revival.

[22:42] Jacqui Dankworth: Yeah certainly got the original imprimature uh preserved for all time.

[22:49] Jacqui Dankworth: So I mean we can you know I I like seeing the alternate takes, yeah.

[22:53] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[22:54] Jacqui Dankworth: I saw um company was is it um because uh when I did my fair lady uh John Doyle was directing and he oh wonderful and he then had this huge he's had this huge success isn't he in America and he I I watched his production of Company during COVID um and I just couldn't believe it I just thought it was absolutely brilliant.

[23:15] Jacqui Dankworth: Yeah you know all the double the the actor musicians they're just unbelievable.

[23:20] Ben Rimalower: Was that not how his My Fair Lady that you were in was was staged no it was very very traditional.

[23:26] Jacqui Dankworth: Yeah you could do a production like that I mean you're a musician you could you could you you could step into one of those if you should you know would you still have interest in doing musical theater who's that sort of do you still have interest in that do I still have it oh yeah yeah definitely I I did grade eight flute I'm quite a good flautist actually so I could do I can play the flute something like that.

[23:48] Ben Rimalower: We should get you back together with John Doyle.

[23:51] Jacqui Dankworth: I mean that's um love to do you know him I I don't but I maybe he'll hear the podcast we can get John of your out there get in touch.

[23:59] Jacqui Dankworth: He's uh he did because it was company and um Sweeney Todd and um he did a a few other things well he's directed a lot but I mean he did a few in that interesting style that is you know yeah it um actually the looking at the photos in the souvenir program from your into the woods I was thinking about that style of theater also that's very I guess Brechtan or something because like the I noticed that the Milky Way had wheels very prominent wheels yeah you know and it is so it's like um it you know the suspension of disbelief is is is proactive.

[24:35] Ben Rimalower: Yes, it's exactly what he wanted.

[24:37] Jacqui Dankworth: Um Patsy Rowland uh played um Jack's mother.

[24:41] Jacqui Dankworth: Oh yeah. She was so funny and lovely. I think she's not with us anymore.

[24:45] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[24:46] Jacqui Dankworth: I can't believe it.

[24:46] Jacqui Dankworth: Um I'm trying to think.

[24:50] Jacqui Dankworth: And Ian Bartholomew was the uh he's wonderful.

[24:53] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[24:55] Jacqui Dankworth: Uh that was good cast.

[24:56] Jacqui Dankworth: I mean, interesting casting.

[24:58] Jacqui Dankworth: Um and Eunice Gason played my my mother.

[25:05] Jacqui Dankworth: Stepmother. Ste my stepmother, sorry.

[25:08] Jacqui Dankworth: Yeah.

[25:08] Jacqui Dankworth: Yeah, not the stepmother, no, that the my actual me in the tree, excuse me.

[25:12] Jacqui Dankworth: Yeah, the tree.

[25:13] Jacqui Dankworth: Um and she used to be a bond, she was one of the bond ladies, the original bond James Bond ladies.

[25:19] Ben Rimalower: Oh.

[25:19] Jacqui Dankworth: And um, so she used to come arrive to stage door every day looking so glamorous, you know, uh because she was a bond lady right up, you know.

[25:29] Jacqui Dankworth: She was just she used to say, Jackie, you should really up your game, you know, you should look glamorous when you come to the stage door.

[25:36] Jacqui Dankworth: And she's right, really. I used to just arrive in my, you know, my jeans and messy hair and everything. Um, but that old she was one of from the old guard, you know. Yeah, it's a generational thing. I think maybe the young generation now with their social media and everything, it's in a way it's kind of swung back to the old guard style because they're very plugged into appearing for the fans and, you know, working maybe sometimes in lieu of the actual work, you know. But um, but that does seem to have picked up the pressure of, you know, getting your eyebrows right and your full side laughing and all that rubbish. But you know, my mum used to say to me as a kid, Jackie, it's 90% how you look.

And I was like, no, it isn't, it's about the art, you know, and I was really offended by it. But actually, do you know what? I wonder if she's right now. Uh, well, she's a beautiful woman, so she can afford to do that. Um, that's hilarious. 90%. Um, and was there ever things that she said to you? I mean, I loved hearing that comment about comparing the productions. Over the years, did she reflect on Into the Woods in a certain way ever?

[26:59] Jacqui Dankworth: No, I mean, you know, we sang it as a duet. Mum and I did it as a duet. Um, on one of her records, No One is Alone. Oh, lovely. Um, and we did it often. Like if I, at Christmas, if I ever joined her on stage, we'd often do that. And in fact, I just did a one woman show in Edinburgh and I sang No One is Alone. Oh wonderful. What a wonderful tribute. Um, well that was that you created that song on the West End. I mean, you know, you were generous to let your mother join you for it. Yeah, hands up, hands up. I remember once during a Christmas, oh I can't tell you this. No, it's too pleased. She just didn't want, no, it's a bit too personal, but she just didn't want to share the microphone with anyone else, especially her daughter. So, uh, I laugh about it now, but then it was, you know. Um, but yeah, that song is very special to me, really, because it's very poignant singing that with your own mum.

[28:10] Ben Rimalower: Oh, I can only imagine. I mean, it's funny because it's a show that, um, even just to audience members seeing it once, it has such tremendous resonance as particularly in the parents and children dynamics. Yeah, to not only have created the role on the West End, but to have shared this bond through the show over two different productions with your own brother is, you know, uh, I mean, I it's really, uh, it must be such a deep personal connection for you to this material.

[28:46] Jacqui Dankworth: I guess it is, although, you know, uh, it's probably a fault of mine. I don't, I perhaps don't appreciate these things as much as I should and like I, you know, I didn't appreciate my dad so much until after he'd gone and I used and I said to Mum, I wish I'd listened to him more, you know. But his dad. And I think you in a way you don't, you sort of take for granted, you know, all these things, but actually it is an amazing thing to sing that song with your mum and to have that show really has affected both of us in different ways. Um, but Stephen Sondheim had, you know, a huge impact on my early career really.

[29:28] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[29:29] Jacqui Dankworth: Um, so he was an important person in both our lives.

[29:34] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[29:35] Jacqui Dankworth: Yeah. Quite honoured really to have known him and very honoured to have known him and have worked with him and um, I really, really liked him and I liked his detail of the work, you know. It's all about the work and it wasn't personal or anything. He just wanted it to be the best, you know.

[29:58] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[29:59] Jacqui Dankworth: It was lovely. Um, so I'm very lucky. And yeah.

[30:11] Ben Rimalower: We're lucky. We're both lucky.

[30:14] Jacqui Dankworth: Well, we were, uh, we were all lucky to have you both, uh, delivering that music. I mean, because you know, it wouldn't have been the same in another voice. Um, so it's, uh, it was, it was written in the stars. Um, I guess some of these things are.

[30:32] Ben Rimalower: You often feel that they are, don't you?

[30:34] Jacqui Dankworth: Yeah, yeah. Strange things happen.

[30:40] Ben Rimalower: Yes, yes. Isn't that great? I knew that I was getting it soon and I thought, oh well, too bad. I I'll have it afterwards, you know, but I got to look at it first, you know.

[30:52] Jacqui Dankworth: Yeah, yeah. To study all the pictures and yeah, I mean, and that's part of the reason that I'm doing the podcast, honestly, is because of the timing of this show that's been so, um, influential to, you know, I mean, for the younger generation, they really consider this the premier Stephen Sondheim musical. I mean, I remember growing up, I loved Into the Woods, but all the artists that I was assisting starting out my career sort of looked at it as kind of second tier after Follies or Sweeney Todd or whatever.

[31:21] Jacqui Dankworth: Really?

[31:22] Ben Rimalower: But, um, but to the kids, I mean, this is the number one Sondheim show, but it's right before the internet and so none of this stuff is, um, you know, it's not easily sort of accessible.

[31:35] Jacqui Dankworth: Yeah, cross-reference and everything, you know.

[31:38] Ben Rimalower: And um, so I wanted to get, you know, all the stories in, you know, because, um, unfortunately, you know, Sondheim's not with us anymore but, you know, but even, uh, getting to talk to Chip Zien and James Lapine and Joanna Gleason, I mean, you know, they're still very, uh, you know, agile and with it but I mean, you know, that's not gonna be the case 40 years from now.

[31:38] Jacqui Dankworth: Absolutely, it's a wonderful thing that you do. I did, I listened to the Joanna Gleason one this morning, um, and she sounds really lovely. I love that audition story about if you got anything faster and she sang, was it On a Clear Day?

[32:14] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, what did I have that I don't have and she said, well I can sing it much faster but she got the job so she's very charming, isn't she?

[32:14] Jacqui Dankworth: Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah everyone has been, it's been so fascinating and um, and like I said all the people from the national company, I mean they all just sang, uh, such praises of working with your mother and um, and you know, uh, unfortunately we don't have an album from that although I have, uh, gotten my hands on some, uh, soundboard recordings if you ever want those.

[32:14] Ben Rimalower: Have you? Of mom singing?

[32:14] Jacqui Dankworth: Yeah, and also I found some, there's some clips on YouTube which were wonderful to see, get a little taste of what she was like and the rap song and everything.

[33:03] Ben Rimalower: The rap I only have on the audio but on YouTube there was The Last Midnight and Lament and you know, they're, I mean they're just, they're as incredible as you prefer to have been, you know.

[33:16] Jacqui Dankworth: Yeah.

[33:16] Ben Rimalower: Well she was very good at tapping into her own power, you know, and I think that part needs that.

[33:22] Jacqui Dankworth: Um, but also very funny and carrots full. So she's perfect for it, really.

[33:28] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[33:28] Jacqui Dankworth: I'd love to do it one day. One day I'll do it.

[33:30] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Call John Doyle. Let's make it happen.

[33:36] Jacqui Dankworth: Okay.

[33:36] Ben Rimalower: You're on.

[33:38] Jacqui Dankworth: Um, I love it. Well, um, I'm so thankful for you chatting with me. It's so great to get your perspective on this.

[33:45] Ben Rimalower: I mean, it's true.

[33:47] Jacqui Dankworth: I hope I've been helpful. I, I, I'm not, you know, I, I, it was a long time ago that I saw Mum in it, and uh obviously I just thought she was brilliant.

[33:56] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[33:59] Jacqui Dankworth: Um, I was a little bit because I saw the, because I saw the Broadway production. Um, I think I was a little bit, um, influenced by, by just the, that, you know, the origin, the origin, the first thing that I saw.

[34:15] Ben Rimalower: Um, and um, so I d, I remember my mum very well in that touring production, but I don't remember everyone else, which is I feel very embarrassed to say that.

[34:26] Jacqui Dankworth: I probably shouldn't say that, should I?

[34:27] Ben Rimalower: No, listen, it's all, we're all warts and all. I mean, yeah, um, fun fact of, uh, family, uh, circularity, the man who played Cinderella's father on that tour is the father of Kim Crosby who played Cinderella on Broadway.

[34:45] Jacqui Dankworth: Ah, so they were all, it's like a family show, I guess.

[34:50] Ben Rimalower: Um, okay.

[34:51] Jacqui Dankworth: Yeah.

[34:52] Ben Rimalower: Uh, I hadn't known that until the podcast.

[34:56] Jacqui Dankworth: Um, do you mean the father, do you mean the father of the baker? Do you mean that you know the, no, no, Cinderella's father, you know, that small part that you kind of ignore her.

[35:07] Ben Rimalower: Um, what is he?

[35:09] Jacqui Dankworth: Do you know, I've got absolutely, isn't that awful? I don't, I don't think that was a good one.

[35:14] Ben Rimalower: He doesn't do much. He barely does anything.

[35:17] Jacqui Dankworth: Let's, I'll tell you who it was. Let's see, where's the cast?

[35:21] Ben Rimalower: I don't remember that in the London production.

[35:23] Jacqui Dankworth: And wouldn't that be funny if it was John Rogan?

[35:27] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, John Rogan. Double cast with the mysterious man. That's interesting.

[35:31] Jacqui Dankworth: Um, but not the narrator.

[35:33] Ben Rimalower: Oh, yeah, it was a different, it was a different goals.

[35:37] Jacqui Dankworth: Yeah.

[35:38] Ben Rimalower: That's funny.

[35:40] Jacqui Dankworth: Um, how bizarre. I wonder if they cut that because I don't have any recollection of him being my father in that.

[35:47] Ben Rimalower: Um, but he was the mysterious man.

[35:50] Jacqui Dankworth: Was, is he meant to be the, he's meant to be the baker's father in the world?

[35:53] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, the big mysterious man is.

[35:55] Jacqui Dankworth: Yeah, the stupid man. I love that part. I think those songs are so beautiful, aren't they?

[36:00] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[36:02] Jacqui Dankworth: Totally. That's, uh, maybe one of my favorite songs in the show is that No More.

[36:07] Ben Rimalower: Um, that the baker sings with the mysterious man.

[36:12] Jacqui Dankworth: Yeah, I love that song. And actually what in doing the research on this podcast, one thing I've come across is some of the, um, soundboard recordings from the San Diego production before Broadway of the early incarnation of the show.

[36:26] Ben Rimalower: Uh-huh.

[36:26] Jacqui Dankworth: Um, from 1986. And there was more to that song. The mysterious man had an extra, I don't know if it would be like a bridge or something, um, that was really lovely.

[36:36] Ben Rimalower: I don't, I don't know why they cut it. I guess they had to show it's a shame.

[36:39] Jacqui Dankworth: Getting long at that point in the show. You can't cherish your darlings.

[36:43] Ben Rimalower: But they wrote, um, they wrote an extra song for Julia Mackenzie.

[36:47] Jacqui Dankworth: Yes, I love that duet, Our Little World.

[36:50] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[36:50] Jacqui Dankworth: Is that in the, uh, is that in production as post? Is that still kept in the show?

[36:54] Ben Rimalower: Well, we used it when I did it in college, but, uh, I think it's an option when people license the show.

[37:03] Jacqui Dankworth: But, uh, we're so happy and love to have that on the, um, London cast recording that that was preserved.

[37:09] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[37:09] Jacqui Dankworth: Um, which, um, yeah, people should all check out if they haven't heard Jacqui Dankworth's Cinderella in the original kids.

[37:19] Ben Rimalower: Um, it's a lifetime ago.

[37:25] Jacqui Dankworth: Yeah. Gosh, how old would I have been when, uh, when I did that? When was it? What was the nineteen ninety?

[37:30] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[37:33] Jacqui Dankworth: Yeah. I'd be just heading for 30, I think.

[37:38] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. So you were really too young for the baker's wife.

[37:41] Jacqui Dankworth: Yeah.

[37:42] Ben Rimalower: Um, younger than, uh, right now though for it.

[37:47] Jacqui Dankworth: That's right. I'm too old now because I definitely, I'm too old now, but I'd be all right for the witch.

[37:52] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, definitely. The witch is timeless. I want to see it.

[38:01] Ben Rimalower: Thank you for listening to Giants in the Sky, how Sondheim and Lapine went into the woods on the Broadway Podcast Network. Look out for episode 42 with Marsha Milgram Dodge, auditioned choreographer.