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[0:01] Ben Rimalower: Broadway Podcast Network presents Giants in the Sky, how Sondheim and Lapine went Into the Woods with me, Ben Rimalower. Today's guest, Kay McClelland, original Florinda and Replacement Baker's Wife.

[0:14] Kay McClelland: Once upon a time... I originated the role of Florinda in Into the Woods on Broadway and at the Old Globe, where I also created the role of Rapunzel. I went on to play the Baker's Wife for the final months of the Broadway run. I also originated the dual role of Bobby and Gabby in City of Angels, introducing Cy Coleman and David Zippel with Every Breath I Take and What You Don't Know About Women. My other Broadway credits include More to Love, The Sound of Music, The King and I, Crazy for You, and Nick and Nora, as well as the national tours of Crazy for You and Sugar Babies. I played Ruth Sherwood in the City Opera production of Wonderful Town and Petra in the Alliance Theatre production of A Little Night Music.

[1:05] Ben Rimalower: First of all, I've been a fan of yours just forever. And so it's just a treat for me personally. But I think your perspective is going to be really unique to get because you started with the show at the Old Globe, where you played your Broadway role, Florinda, as well as Rapunzel. You went through all the changes with that show and cast to go to Broadway, where I believe you stayed for the entire run after understudying the Baker's Wife, eventually taking over as the Baker's Wife and closing the show.

[1:39] Kay McClelland: That's right. You didn't need me here for all that.

[1:42] Ben Rimalower: Well, those are the chapter headings. I guess I want to begin by just hearing how the show came to you. I guess it was your Broadway debut. You had done the tour of Sugar Babies before.

[1:56] Kay McClelland: Yes, it was my Broadway debut. I think I was on the road with Sugar Babies for four months and then it closed on the road. And I know, at least I remember, I just re-read it to prepare for chatting with you. But I remember years ago when the Broadway Stories book by Marty Bell came out, which is a wonderful chapter with you talking about your Nick and Nora experience, which could be its own podcast for sure.

[2:26] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I'm sure.

[2:28] Kay McClelland: But you mentioned in that that the first Broadway show you saw when you moved to New York was Sunday in the Park with George.

[2:35] Ben Rimalower: Yes, yes, that's right.

[2:37] Kay McClelland: I was very sick. I had a sinus infection. My girlfriend, Gina, and I sat up in the way balcony in the back going, I can just cry and cry and cry, you know.

[2:47] Ben Rimalower: And had you been like a Sondheim aficionado prior to that?

[2:51] Kay McClelland: No, I had not been. I've heard you ask other people if they were a theater geek, and I was not a theater geek at all.

[3:00] Ben Rimalower: You're cool.

[3:02] Kay McClelland: No, I just kind of fell into it, which sounds so, you know, it just kind of fell into it. And I was on Broadway. But I started in just being a clown. I was a comedy. I did comedy on stage with a little group that was famous in Atlanta called the Wits and Players. And Bonnie and Terry Turner started with them. And Jan Hooks started with them. And, you know, SNL and Third Rock and all of that.

[3:31] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[3:32] Kay McClelland: So I was just a yuck, yuck kind of girl, you know. And the first thing I was aware of with Sondheim, I did A Little Night Music at the Alliance Theatre.

[3:41] Ben Rimalower: Oh, wonderful.

[3:42] Kay McClelland: I did Petra and, you know, oh my God, it was just the thing I think I'd done before was Mame. And so of course Mame is great. But it was like, and then a Sondheim, it's like, oh, oh, this is a whole different animal. A whole different world of lyric and movement and thought. And I don't know, just everything. It was very exciting, but I wasn't that familiar with, you know, suddenly I was faced with these incredibly famous people. And I thought I really need to figure out who these people are. I need to, this is Stephen Sondheim. This is James Lapine. I remember I auditioned for something at the Alliance with a monologue. I don't even remember the play that James had written. And I said, this is, this is the, you know, the waitress scene from some play by James Lapine. And I remember the guy that I was auditioning for just burst out laughing. And I thought, I've been funny already. I didn't mean for that to be funny.

[4:45] Kay McClelland: So yeah, that was, Sunday in the Park was very thrilling for me.

[4:51] Ben Rimalower: And were you thinking like, I want to play Dot. I want to do this show. Was that, you know, what was your...

[4:57] Kay McClelland: Oh, no. Oh no. I didn't think I'd ever get there. No, no, no. I didn't have any. I don't think I thought I would ever get on Broadway. I was with like a clump of people who had moved from Atlanta to New York. I'd had a terrible romantic breakup. And I just thought, what the hell, I'm just going to go and see what happens. And I don't know what I was thinking. Honestly, I had a really great agent that I got from a referral from someone who had moved from Atlanta and moved and became an agent in New York and he kind of slid me in the door, you know. And I've just been like, really, really lucky. Somehow I think what started it was my success with Sugar Babies, because...

[5:49] Kay McClelland: And I was like, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. And that was just apparently, I mean, I didn't have any clue how big that was. I didn't know that was going to be this huge role that I didn't know what it was like to be on the road. I didn't know what it was like to be singing with birds on my shoulders. I didn't know what Mickey Rooney and Ann Miller were going to be like, and I was terrified and sure I was going to get fired pretty much every step of the way.

[6:17] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[6:18] Kay McClelland: Yeah. I mean, I've grown up watching Mickey Rooney and Ann Miller, like in the...

[6:23] Ben Rimalower: Oh, yeah.

[6:24] Kay McClelland: Everything. My mom was pretty starstruck. You know, he would scurry around the house doing mom stuff. And then when Ann would come on with her nerve attacks, you know, or Judy and Mickey would do their thing, she would stop. That's Mickey. Hey, look, that's Ann Miller.

[6:42] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[6:43] Kay McClelland: Yeah. It was just so glamorous and beautiful. I had no idea that I would ever even be in the same room with people like that, much less be on stage and playing with them and have them be so generous and warm and personable. It was really thrilling for me to, you know, to even consider that. So, no, I didn't think. I thought maybe I could sing at a little club someplace or, you know, something like some kind of comedy group that did improv or something like that. I really just wanted to go to New York and live there and be cool.

[7:21] Ben Rimalower: Well, you barely had time to do that because you went out on the tour. And then Sugar Babies closed and you went back to New York.

[7:30] Kay McClelland: I did. I went back to New York. And so then tell me when you heard about this fairy tale musical Into the Woods.

[7:37] Kay McClelland: I don't remember exactly when it was, but I remember that I was in Atlanta. And my agent called my mom's and dad's house and said, there's a new Sondheim show that's coming up. You're going to come back and audition for Cinderella or Cinderella and the stepsisters. And so I had to make a quick turnaround, but that was all I knew. And I thought I was going to do it, but I had no idea that it was going to end up that way. And I got a callback and then, you know, I can't remember like a lot of people don't remember exactly what happened, but I was trying to remember if I did a workshop before San Diego and I don't think I did. I don't think.

[8:21] Kay McClelland: Yeah. I should have talked to you before this interview.

[8:26] Ben Rimalower: We're talking now.

[8:29] Kay McClelland: Yeah, no. I think the first time I was at the Rights Horizons workshop in June of '86 was, I think that's where it was. Nancy Opal played Florinda, I think. And then I think was Lucinda or vice versa, maybe, but honestly, I don't even know if they had their names. I don't know. I'm going off on tangents and saying the wrong information.

[9:04] Ben Rimalower: No, no.

[9:06] Kay McClelland: Other people were talking about pigs and Joy being a sexy wolf. And I was like, I know nothing about, I don't think I saw pigs little or otherwise. And there was no sex with the wolves. Didn't know any of that. But, but...

[9:25] Ben Rimalower: Did you have any time meeting Stephen Sondheim and that were hurt in that audition process?

[9:34] Kay McClelland: I do. I do. And I don't remember, you know, the kind of thing where you walk in and they are sitting in a dark audience, you know, three, four, five rows back. And nope. That was the first time I've met Paul Ford. Yeah. And Jim and Yanni. I know Jim and Yanni was there. And I don't remember, you know, this is Kim McClelland. I got introduced. You know, hi, Kay. I think that's what's all I got. I didn't get an introduction. It was just like, it's kind of sort of see some figures there. They're looming and you could hear once I sang my songs. They wanted me to do a scale and I'm sure I heard, you know, a lot of people. I'm sure I heard a lot of people and some murmuring and. But I, again, I thought, well, sorry.

Or just, it was nice to be here. Have a nice life. And I remember my agent said, call me right after. Call me right after. Tell me what happened. Tell me who you saw there and if you've got any dirt on anything. So I called them and I said, I have no idea how I did. They made me do the scale. And I said, I don't know. I don't know. And I saw two dark-haired short girls. And I don't know who that was. I think that they were reading. And my agent said later, that was Patti LuPone and Ellen Foley, honey. I were two dark-haired short girls. Yeah. That's who that was.

[11:09] Kay McClelland: Wow. Outside. Well, I think we passed each other in. I don't remember where we were. I don't remember where we were. And the velvet, you know, the... What do they call the things? Besides anyway. This skirts where we were passing each other in the dark. And I remember glancing back and seeing two small-ish same size-ish dark-haired girls.

[11:44] Kay McClelland: Yeah. And I think that's one of the things that I've been able to find, which is that nobody could tell me there was the famous story of Patti LuPone's audition. But no one could tell me if that was before the first workshop before San Diego, before Broadway. So now you've given me the timing for that. So we're already ticking things off my list. So, okay. Do you remember what you sang?

[12:06] Kay McClelland: Probably. I don't remember what I sang. Probably a cock-eyed optimist. Here's that rainy day. Probably. Those are my songs. Oh, and I... You know, you walk in with you when you've auditioned.

[12:54] Kay McClelland: Some years later I thought, no, that did not stay in my head at all. That's a lot. Yeah, that's a lot. Wow. Okay. So, well, so you got the job.

[13:06] Ben Rimalower: I did. I got the job.

[13:07] Kay McClelland: Yeah. I was shocked and amazed. I guess you all rehearsed at the Westbeth Theatre in the West Village.

[13:14] Ben Rimalower: Yes, I do remember that. And I remember the whole Rapunzel stepsister switch off.

[13:21] Kay McClelland: I knew that I was probably going to not do Rapunzel after, if I did the show at all. James was just not happy with my Rapunzel at all. And I think, you know, you can kind of tell if it's working for anyone in the room besides you. I kind of felt like I was a filler, you know, for that. And I heard murmurings that, well, you know, that will be, they're not going to have you double those two small roles. They're, you know, they're going to make that. Rapunzel's her own character and the stepsisters are a couple. So they're separated from, you know, from that plot.

[14:19] Ben Rimalower: What, I mean, it sounds like you as an actor took that as a reflection of your performance as Rapunzel, or did you think it was just simply that the audience needed to see a different face than in one role from the other?

[14:37] Kay McClelland: Yeah, I think it was, I think, I think it was both. I think just personally, I didn't think I did it very well. I knew I didn't sing it the way that they wanted me to sing it. And I knew that I didn't look the part. I think they wanted somebody young and fresh and, you know, like, like very, you know, young looking. And I just never was that, you know, they put this blonde kind of wig on me with this kind of flat, long rope of hair, you're dragging around. And of course, you're not up in a tower. You're kind of just flailing on a chair. I just didn't feel very comfortable at all. And maybe it was because I was so new when I was with Lauren and Joy. You know, that was just they were so supportive and such a buffer and so helpful. And, you know, you do this and I'll do that. And how about if we come in here? Yeah, I'll do that. You know, I didn't have to be my own person. I think it had to do with my experience as well.

[15:37] Ben Rimalower: Interesting. Well, listen, it's almost 40 years later, and I'm looking at you with your long blonde hair on this Zoom, I'd cast you as Rapunzel today.

[15:45] Kay McClelland: Oh, the lighting worked. But talk to me about this relationship with Joy and Lauren, especially Lauren. Other people have referred to like Danielle Ferlin talked about sort of like kind of you two as I don't want to say the mean girls, but like kind of like the like definitely like the cool girls or the posse or something.

[16:09] Kay McClelland: You know, that's funny. Yeah, funny. Well, you know, Lauren, Lauren was more savvy in that world than I was. But she also was I don't know how to say it. She was a buoy for me. You know, she kind of guided me and like just was like a sister for me. You know, and also it was interesting to watch her work. It was interesting to watch her work because she was so definitive. There was nothing flailing about her. There was nothing indecisive about what she did. In my mind, she was calm and she was smug and funny and just very open and willing to just to try anything. And we rehearsed and rehearsed because we had the knife and the toe and the heel and the hoops and the horse and the stool and the running thing.

And Bob, it was a lot, you know, so we were very tactile with each other. You know, we had to be close. You know, we were nothing practically in that first scene that we would come on. And we were you know, we were very intimate with each other and in that we just were smashed together and we did not know each other at all. She was just very comforting to me.

[17:44] Ben Rimalower: And it's funny that you said that, Danielle, so we came off kind of like the mean girls. I was very, as I've said five times now, young and inexperienced. I didn't really know how to deal with some of the other actors in working with them, interchanging, you know, looks or bits or whatever. And I had a couple of issues maybe with Chip. And when Chip would and I would talk, I would get my feelings hurt and I would cry. And Lauren would be like, OK, a woman specifically one time she said, Kate, stay down there. And she said, I mean, she stood on the landing and talked to Chip. This is what it's like to be on that on that, you know, whatever that thing was called, the hill or the riser, the lift or something. It's very difficult for us to be like up there with the mud coats and the hats and the dark glasses. And we don't really need notes from you. So I would you know, she was just very. I don't know, might have come off sharp, but she was very protective of me.

[18:53] Ben Rimalower: I love hearing about that relationship. I'm thinking of you and Lauren. You know, other than maybe Chip and Joanna, it's probably for what you all went through and developing a new musical out of town and with such high pressure, it must have been very special to have someone that was really joined with you in that experience and maybe even more so for the two of you, because I think even though Chip and Joanna seem to have been very supportive of each other, I think there was still a sense of them. You know, one of them was nominated for a Tony. One of them wasn't there. There was there was at the level that they were within the billing. I think there was intrinsically a little more of a, you know, there was no way to escape some kind of competition, whereas it seems like maybe you and Lauren were truly able to just support each other 100 percent.

[19:43] Kay McClelland: I think that for Lauren and I, that's right, because there was a time when she was first cover for I mean, when we started and actually in San Diego, I was first cover and Rapunzel. Then when we went from there to Broadway, they not only didn't have me do Rapunzel, they took away first cover. So Lauren was first covered. And I don't know why, but we never felt I don't think she ever felt this way. And I never felt this way that we were in competition. We just we were so grateful. I was so grateful to be there. You know, I honestly a couple of times I thought, well, I'm just going to get fired. I'm not sure that I'm, you know, I was really not ever solid in my in my on my feet there, even though it was great.

I was always afraid of everything. You watch the people come and go. You don't know what their contracts are. I wasn't so aware of mine, but I know you can be bought out of your contract. And, you know, once I was there, I thought, oh, my God, I'm just not as good as all these people. I cannot keep up. I don't know what I'm doing. So we were just attached to each other from the very beginning and Joy as well. Joy was so open and loving and willing to try anything. And all those little bits that was that was her and Lauren, you know, and I felt like I was just kind of following along or just trying to keep up and do the best thing I could. So, yeah, Lauren, Lauren's a different animal. She's very open and supportive. She's a good sister.

[21:35] Ben Rimalower: Well, I'm glad you had her. So tell me about this experience for you, because coming from, you know, the national tour of Sugar Babies, you were going into a show that was already a long running hit and was, you know, very, very established and proven. And here you were in a process where I understand they were making changes throughout the run in San Diego. And there was a lot of big question marks. How did you have enough information going in to expect that? Or was that surprising to you?

[22:07] Kay McClelland: No, I think I knew because I think it was going on sort of in rehearsal before San Diego. And so I knew that it was everything was juggling. And I knew that we obviously always have rewrites. You know, our scripts look like they've, you know, been through the washing machine. They were just so I wasn't surprised about that. And that was fun. That was that made it fun and kind of freeing because you were changing things so much that you didn't you were kind of always trying new things. You're kind of always going, well, that line leads you that way. You know, this now that the scene is there, you have to, you know, follow that lead. And so you can try new things and try, you know, you're not reading the set script. And that's what has to happen there. You know, and that's the end of it. So that was fun. That was it was easy. It was light. Plus, we were in San Diego, the globe. Perfect weather every day. So fabulous.

[23:10] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah. And and what did you have an opinion of? Oh, this show is going to be so successful and iconic. Or were you like, I don't know if they're going to make this work or, you know, what was your take on it?

[23:26] Kay McClelland: I, I don't remember. I, I was sure that it would run. I didn't I didn't know whether I was going to be with it. And I didn't really know what the reviews were going to be like. I knew that some of those shows, some of the shows didn't always have real positive reviews and they didn't have really long runs. But I certainly knew that it was epic. I knew that it had. Oh, I mean, Joanna and Chip were just so glowing. I couldn't see how anybody wouldn't want to just come and see them, you know, and see that relationship because it was so much fun to watch. And the the the fact that it wasn't all every day, all the fact that it dug in deeper, even foreshadowed in the first act. And that second act was just so rich and yummy.

And I love that it was it dealt with such issues that are pertinent today in such a fairytale setting that that was just wonderful to me. And I, I was sure that it would run. I was sure that it had a life. I didn't know how long. I didn't know that it would go from we were four years, I think, from from San Diego to closing. Yeah, something like that. But like, I mean, when you talk about that second act, I mean, you didn't have No One Is Alone.

[24:49] Kay McClelland: You didn't have "Children Will Listen."

[24:51] Ben Rimalower: That's right.

[24:52] Kay McClelland: I think maybe "No More."

[24:54] Ben Rimalower: Did you even start rehearsals with that song or did that come sometime in the process?

[25:00] Kay McClelland: I don't think we had that. I think I have a memory of George Coe and Chip doing their song.

[25:16] Kay McClelland: "No More." Because I can hear George Coe going, running away with that kind of New York accent, running away with the wood, you know, that kind of thing. So I have kind of forgotten what you asked me. But so you talk about the emotional power of the second act, but it seems like the show that you started rehearsals with had a long way to go to get that. Was it just there intrinsically in a way that you were connecting to?

[25:45] Kay McClelland: I felt like it was there intrinsically. And I think that's because of the actors. It was just flowing so beautifully. And Ellen Foley was so deep and rich that I felt like when the songs came in, it supported what was already there. And you know, when people say it's ballad and ballad and ballad, I don't even think of it that way. It seems just the way it's supposed to go. The music that plays behind some of those scenes is so soft and, I don't know, haunting maybe. It doesn't to me seem boring or really depressing. And maybe that's just my love for those actors or to watch it. It was just so poignant.

[26:37] Ben Rimalower: Well, I know you have a taste for, you know, sophisticated musical theatre. That's another thing that you said in Marty Bell's book.

[26:45] Kay McClelland: Oh, God. Marty Bell's book. You had not been a fan of the mainstream musicals and that you liked like Bertolt Brecht and like that was more your jam.

[26:54] Kay McClelland: A little gritty.

[26:55] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[26:56] Kay McClelland: Yes. No wonder Sondheim was an easy sell for you. But with all those changes, I mean, like talking about Ellen Foley, did you have a sense, did you think something wasn't working there, whether it was her performance or the material The Witch had? Did that seem to be the problem area of the show?

[27:17] Kay McClelland: No, I think that it was. I didn't really. Let's see. The second act, to me, did have that, I don't know how to say that. I didn't think that was a problem. I thought that Ellen's, you know, her interpretation was sort of what kept the show in real, in the urgency of the completion of the, you know, of the wishes. You know, she, her realism really grounded it to me, you know, that she had that grittier side.

[28:10] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[28:11] Kay McClelland: Not that the other witches didn't have a gritty side as well, but Ellen just has a look about her that's just more raw. And she went there, you know, and everybody, I think everybody loved that she went there. She was, you know, scary. She was really scary. Wow. You know.

[28:27] Ben Rimalower: So. Were you surprised then when she wasn't cast for the pre-Broadway workshop?

[28:38] Kay McClelland: I was. I was surprised at that. And I kind of thought that it was because she wasn't available, because I know that they do that. I mean, they did that with, Bob wasn't, Westenberg wasn't available.

[28:48] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[28:49] Kay McClelland: Yes. Off doing it with Mads Berkman.

[28:51] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[28:52] Kay McClelland: In the doorway.

[28:53] Ben Rimalower: Yes. That was a revelation to me on the podcast. But so, okay. And did they keep making changes in the show throughout the run in San Diego, even after you opened?

[29:06] Kay McClelland: Yes. I think they kept, I mean, they made changes in New York after San Diego.

[29:11] Ben Rimalower: Sure.

[29:12] Kay McClelland: Yeah. So, yeah. I don't know. I don't remember when they say, you know, Birdseye, the show's frozen. I don't remember that moment, but I, it wasn't very far before we opened. I remember being in the theater and Bernadette was learning "Last Midnight," you know, and we were wondering what that was. Oh, that must be the new song, you know.

[29:36] Ben Rimalower: Right. Well, okay. So the San Diego show closes, I think it was like the first week in January in 1987. And then I know that workshop pre-Broadway with Betty Buckley and Burke Moses happened in June or July. How did you spend the entire six months waiting to hear whether you were cast or not? Or did you find out soon that you were going to be part of the Broadway production?

[30:03] Kay McClelland: I think I waited. I think that I remember getting a letter and I may have been the only one to get this letter, but excuse me, I remember getting a letter that said, basically, we loved what you did. We love you. You're wonderful, but we're not going to use you.

[30:18] Kay McClelland: Not going to use you. Something like that. Yeah. I don't remember being, I don't remember feeling like, oh, I'm waiting to find out if I'm going to be hired again. And I think I had to come back in and sing again, but I don't, I could be wrong. I could completely be wrong about that. But then magically they said, you know, we're hiring you. We want you back. But I remember that it was a long time. What did you say it was? Six months.

[30:44] Kay McClelland: Yeah. Yeah. I think I was waiting. I think I was waiting. I was waiting tables at a place called Handwriters on the Upper West Side. And just going to auditions and seeing, you know, no, no sense. And I guess at that point they didn't, you may not have even known that "Into the Woods" With or Without You was happening on that timetable. So it was all a question mark.

[31:07] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[31:08] Kay McClelland: I think that was all behind me at that point. I just thought, you know, that was fun and, and that was great. And I, of course, I was disappointed, but, you know, you just keep going.

[31:19] Ben Rimalower: But then they said they wanted you. And so you did that workshop that summer.

[31:23] Kay McClelland: Yes.

[31:24] Ben Rimalower: And what, you know, the, as the workshop is the thing I'm most curious about in the entire "Into the Woods" universe. What do you remember about that?

[31:34] Kay McClelland: Let's see, was that when Suzanne Douglas was doing the witch? I think there was two, if I understand correctly, in the first week, Suzanne Douglas was the witch. And in the second week, Betty was the witch and Suzanne was Rapunzel.

[31:50] Kay McClelland: Okay. Okay. That's probably, sure, you know, you've got the timetable down, but you can remember it much better than I do.

[32:01] Ben Rimalower: Or any of us, probably. You've got the whole big picture in front of you.

[32:04] Kay McClelland: Well, you all are remembering what happened to you 40 years ago. I'm remembering what people told me, you know, three months ago. You know, I, I, I don't remember a lot about it. You know, we weren't in it as much as everyone else. I mean, you know, we were just, we'd show up every now and then. So it was hard to keep track of everything that was going on.

[32:29] Kay McClelland: I don't even remember. I didn't remember what happened with Burke. I remember, I didn't know the soap opera-ish, I didn't know any of that stuff.

[32:37] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[32:38] Kay McClelland: I knew that it was weird there because he was like suddenly doing, suddenly he was reading the script of the prince.

[32:45] Ben Rimalower: But was Chuck doing Rapunzel's prince in that?

[32:48] Kay McClelland: No. And I don't honestly know what the story was with Chuck. My understanding was that Bob was cast as the prince and the wolf, Cinderella's prince and the wolf, and Burke was cast as Rapunzel's prince. And then Bob couldn't do just the workshop. So they said Burke, who was going to cover him in Cinderella's prince and the wolf anyway, would actually do it for those two weeks. And, and Jeff Blumenkranz would be Rapunzel's prince for those, which he was going to cover for those two weeks. And then when Burke was fired after the workshop, before Broadway rehearsal started, that's when Chuck was rehired, having done it in San Diego. So I don't know.

[33:35] Ben Rimalower: Okay. That sounds familiar. I don't know if Chuck wasn't available for Broadway or the workshop or how, you know, what their original intentions had been. And I know, according to Pam, she had been offered the workshop in Broadway and she now thinks very stupidly, she said she could do Broadway, but not the workshop, but that they, they said, okay, fine. And that's when they had Suzanne do Rapunzel, which I guess she was going to be covering anyway, in the track that sort of Betsy Joslin eventually stepped into. But so, okay, so, but it was you and Lauren and you were given the new script. I mean, do you remember thinking, okay, this is like moving in the right direction with the writing process or?

[34:31] Kay McClelland: You know, I, I, I'm just not that smart that way. I think that Lauren, any, any kind of indication I had that we were getting more congealed was that was coming from her. I was just so happy to be there and have the lines and get the laughs. No. So I don't really, I just kind of thought it was great from the beginning and that the times, the little words that they would take out and put in other little words or take a whole page out or three pages, I was like, wow, how do they have the foresight to know that that's, you know, that that scene needs to be, to go that way for the character or for the next scene to be right. And I had no idea. I was just literally, I had my clown shoes on and my red nose and that was it. What an amazing, what an amazing place to be educated.

[35:25] Ben Rimalower: And I mean, do you, so Burke, you hadn't remembered, but do you remember much about, about Betty's performance or about Suzanne Douglas?

[35:30] Kay McClelland: I remember Suzanne's performance. It was a little edgier than Betty's, Betty, Ms. Buckley's, you know, Betty, I'm talking like, oh, I know, like we had lunch. I remember Betty singing the hell out of it. You know, I remember that more than anything else. She was very different, obviously, than Ellen. And I think that that was, that was, for me, it didn't, it didn't strike the bell that I wanted it to, you know, it wasn't, it was somehow, I mean, it was beautiful, but it was not what I had loved in Ellen's performance, that grit, that, you know, that this is real. I mean, you'd better, you know, pay attention or I'm going to turn you into a frog, seriously. Betty's was not as threatening to me, you know.

But I think she, you know, as I said, sang the crap out of it. And I don't know, everything was different once you get the nose and the wig and the real physicality of it down, of course, we didn't have any of that. Betty was very spiritual and, you know, was very, kept the company, it seemed like, together during that time, the way that she was, she kind of, it kind of felt like she took the reins a little bit, you know, and had like, we would, before the reading would start, she had us like, get in a circle and kind of concentrate.

[38:14] Kay McClelland: I'm behind her. I'm not in the audience. I'm behind her. So I'm not seeing her face and any of the witches' faces really. Ellen's of course, I was right there. I was Rapunzel. And then at the end of the show, I was Baker's wife and they brought her in.

[38:37] Ben Rimalower: Yes. Oh, we'll get to that. We will get to that. But no, but I mean, it seems like, you know, Betty was frustrated in the role from her own accounts. And there was obviously frustration with her on the creative team. And maybe that grittiness that she's so capable of wasn't something that she was able to find in that material, especially if it was a two-week process that she was only there for half of. I mean, you know, and everyone else had been, most of you had just done the show in a full production for, you know, a couple of months and here it was, you know, the room, the cold room with nothing. So, you know, that makes a lot of sense. And, you know, Burke had described and other people had referenced the sense of high pressure in the room when, when you did the presentations of, well, first of all, there seems to be a little bit of confusion from the different accounts of if it was two weeks of rehearsal, was there one performance, two performances, three performances? Did they all have different endings? Were they all on the same day? Do you have any memories about the specifics of that?

[39:48] Kay McClelland: Lord, you mean two performances in one day? You mean? Yeah. Well, so I guess someone had told me that, that there were three different performances after two weeks and that they each had a very different ending. And then someone else said that there was only two different versions that were performed and that they were, it wasn't the whole show. It was like, you did the show and then said, oh, but we could also try it with this last 20 minute section instead. And like, so.

[40:28] Ben Rimalower: Wow. Wow. That's ringing a bell, but I, wow. Who said that? That's an amazing memory. God, I don't even remember now. This, this, when I, when I, when I write my book, I'll have to get it all straight in the quotes, but. Oh Lord. So neither of those. I don't remember. I do remember Joanna dying. Then I remember her not dying. Yeah. And then I remember an apple. Right. But, but I don't remember how we got to that. I don't remember. Well, now that you say we did like the last 20 minutes or the, from this point on, I don't, you know, we must've just done all sorts of crazy stuff because I don't remember that. I remember being confused a lot, but I don't remember. Yeah. I don't remember that.

[41:13] Kay McClelland: And, um, like, do you remember Bernadette being in the audience either in San Diego or at the workshop?

[41:21] Ben Rimalower: Yes. I remember her being in the audience of the workshop because you kind of can't not see people. They're right there. Yeah. I remember Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio was there and I remember it being very full, you know, a lot of times when people come and see it, there's a straggling bit, a smattering of folks. This was three, three rows of heavy hitters, you know, smashed up against the wall. Um, so, uh, I do remember that. And I remember thinking, Oh, well, are we starting over starting over? Why are all these people here now? What's, you know, what's so different that everybody has to be here now? And honestly, who are a lot of these people? I didn't know who a lot of these people were. I didn't know, but you know, I didn't know what people looked like, right.

Producers or whoever. Yeah. I've not met any of them and they come right up and say, hi, whatever my name is. And I'm a producer, but I do remember that day being very, uh, being very intense. I remember those, those days being, you know, walking, not walking on eggshells, but just getting ready for anything like a, like a fun house, you know, just kind of waiting for the next thing to pop out of the, out of the corner.

[42:45] Ben Rimalower: So was it exciting?

[42:49] Kay McClelland: It was very, Oh yeah. It was very exciting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was fun and exciting and thrilling and, and scary. It was excited and scared. Um, uh, you know, as, as I've said, I was so new to it. Um, creating a show was just like magic. Um, and, you know, realizing what the people wrote in the room that I was sitting in was going to be on Broadway and it was going to be in the history books and it was going to be things that everybody talked about. What's coming out of your mouth on the page coming out of my mouth. That's it. That line is just so impressive to me. So, and, um, do you, I see, I think my understanding of how this all worked is correct. You had your contract for Broadway before that workshop started.

[43:38] Kay McClelland: Wow. Did I, I guess I did. I guess, I guess I did. Uh, yes. I remember the conversation with my agent where he told me, yes, it is both, both two separate contracts at the same time.

[43:54] Ben Rimalower: So at that point where you no longer scared, you were being fired at that point, did you feel?

[43:58] Kay McClelland: No, I think till the day we closed, I was nervous that somebody was going to, especially when Terry Burrell came in and Lauren left the show and Terry Burrell came in, I thought, oh, that's, that's it. I'm they're going to get Lauren back and it's going to be Terry and Lauren, or they're going to find some other doll, you know, to come in. If we got heavy hitters coming in like that, you know, so yeah, I was never secure. And especially when I got in to do the Baker's wife, they're going to get somebody, you know, they're going to, whoever the understudy was then Colleen. Oh, I can't remember what Colleen Fitzpatrick. Thank you. Colleen Fitzpatrick. They're going to, they're going to give this to her because I, because she can do it.

And I suck, you know, what an interesting, uh, humble take. See, I would have thought, cause one of my very first interviews was Paul Ford and he went on and on about how you were so wonderful as the Baker's wife. And he was so angry that they had cast this, uh, television actress, um, as the first Cynthia as the replacement of Joanna. And, um, uh, I guess, I don't think he was so angry about Mary Gordon Murray. Cause I guess there was a sense she was prepping for the tour when she did it or something like that. Um, she was just really good. She had a really good sense of it. She's very grounded. I thought in it. Yeah. Um, but, uh, but you were his favorite. Uh, so I would have assumed that you, since you were the third replacement Baker's wife, um, that you might've been sitting there frustrated when Joanna left and it didn't go to you when Mary left and it didn't go to you and Cynthia left and it didn't go to you, but not the case.

[45:39] Kay McClelland: You know, no, I just was so happy. Right. Little sign, hold it up. I was so happy, you know? Uh, no, I didn't think I was completely out of my element and I didn't think that, uh, I remember that there was a reviewer that came and he said that he had come to interview, he had come to review rather Cynthia and that she, every time he'd come, she was out. She had vocal, some vocal issues. Um, and he said, so now I've seen Kay McClelland three times, so I'm just going to review her. Oh, wonderful. So it got a lovely little mention in the, in the times. And that was, that was nice. And I got a little bit of a, okay, maybe this isn't terrible, but, um, uh, you know, uh, at, uh, toward the end of the run, um, I got some notes from someone and, uh, they weren't very good notes.

They were kind of like, not, you know, we're not happy with what you're doing notes. And I said to this person, if I'm not any good, why, why, why do you have doing the role? So, um, I think from that time too, I felt like I'm just a place card really. And, uh, and the rest of the show was so wonderful. The writing was so wonderful that you had to suck really bad to ruin it. And I don't think I sucked really bad, but, uh, but I, you know, again, I, um, I was just so happy to be there and to be wearing the costumes and having a dressing room and, you know, singing those beautiful songs and, uh, trying my best to be the best Joanna Gleason I could be, you know, was that true? Even after you took over the role that you still felt you were doing Joanna rather than your own Baker's wife?

[47:22] Kay McClelland: Well, there was a little, yeah. Um, obviously it couldn't be Joanna, but, um, at that point, um, I wanted to fit in. I wanted to keep the laughs and I wanted to fit in and I wanted to do what other people were expecting that character to do. I didn't feel like I had the rights to take, you know, to, to create a whole new, uh, take on the character. Um, uh, I mean, at that point I remember saying to myself, why reinvent the wheel? I didn't, I didn't have enough experience to, to really, you know, hone my craft on that role. Uh, I really just wanted to not make any waves and make everybody happy and be where I was supposed to be and yank the hair when I was supposed to, and, you know, cover the lift and not fall down.

[48:23] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Do you later on in your career, would you have maybe felt more emboldened to, to, uh, veer more on your own once you had actually taken over their part?

[48:32] Kay McClelland: Possibly. I can't, I can't say for sure. Um, I mean, I saw you on the tour of Crazy, which you were so wonderful in Los Angeles and, um, you know, you, you certainly didn't seem like Michelle Pock. You felt like, seemed like your own original fabulous thing. Yeah. Well, that was different too, for me, because all the other actors were different, you know, everybody's recreating it. So Chris Castle was not anything like John Hillner. So we got to play different stuff and we had a different dynamic. Certainly. Now, when I went into the Broadway company of that, yeah, I couldn't be at that point. I couldn't be, I couldn't do what Michelle did because I'd already done me on the road. So I was just like, ah, and they were very accommodating.

John Hillner was very, very kind to me and, uh, and very happy to, to, you know, shift a little and give and take a little differently. So that was fun. Yeah. I guess the answer to your question is yes. Later on in my career, I did feel a little bit more.

[49:32] Ben Rimalower: I'm glad to hear it. Although, uh, I want to know who gave you such a harsh notes when you were playing the vicar.

[50:09] Kay McClelland: I mean, so were you, was that like a dream come true when you did get the offer to assume the role? At that point, yes, it was a dream come true because I had gone on a good bit throughout the run after Lauren left, of course, and she was just wonderful in the role as well. But, you know, I kind of, as I said, I kind of slipped into the career that I had. So again, grateful, and once I did get it, I loved being with Chip, I loved being with Bob, I loved being with all the witches, Nancy Dussault, and of course Ellen, and I think I got to go on with Betsy, who was wonderful as well. So yeah, it was huge. And yeah, I did feel a little bit more grounded in myself once all those things happened and all those people went on. I got to go on with a few other princes and that was always fun.

[51:01] Ben Rimalower: How are you going to roll down the hill?

[51:16] Kay McClelland: I don't know. I rolled down the hill this way. You know, it was just the constant adjusting and you feel like a real actor.

[51:23] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, well, I mean, Broadway leading lady. Was that, and how, do you remember what month you took over the part in?

[51:32] Kay McClelland: Wow. No, I don't remember the month. I just really don't, I don't even remember. We closed in September.

[51:41] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[51:43] Kay McClelland: I want to say like, it wasn't on for very long. I really don't know. I would say May.

[51:49] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[51:50] Kay McClelland: But I don't know. And yeah, was that a big disappointment then to get the news that the show was finally closing at that point?

[52:02] Kay McClelland: Well, actually one of the things in that note session that I had was the answer was, well, we're probably closing pretty soon and you know the lines. So I knew that that was imminent. They didn't want it to end. And I thought, you know, that's not a done deal, but I did know that it was, you know, once people start leaving and the replacements over and over. Although you must have started rehearsals for City of Angels very soon after.

[52:37] Ben Rimalower: Right, right away.

[52:38] Kay McClelland: Yeah. Right away. I remember when we were sitting in the house and we were told that the show was closing, that some of us were saying, okay, what's the first line of your new job? And that was just this, you know, so clever. And I think Chip Science said, ma'am, I don't think we have that in a seven double A. You know, and he made fun of me. He said, well, you don't, what do you care? You're going off to be with Larry Gelbart. And I thought, yes, I am. What a thing is that? Yes, we got it right away.

[53:10] Ben Rimalower: You had already booked that.

[53:11] Kay McClelland: So that's wonderful.

[53:12] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Oh, that's a question for you. Were you still playing Florinda or were you the Baker's wife when the show was filmed?

[53:21] Kay McClelland: I was still Baker's wife.

[53:24] Ben Rimalower: So.

[53:24] Kay McClelland: Still Florinda.

[53:25] Ben Rimalower: I was, no.

[53:27] Kay McClelland: You were the Baker's wife.

[53:29] Kay McClelland: I was, I mean, I was Florinda in the filming.

[53:32] Ben Rimalower: No, I know that.

[53:33] Kay McClelland: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Had you taken over the part at that point?

[53:37] Kay McClelland: Yes, I had.

[53:38] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[53:39] Kay McClelland: So you were in the show.

[53:39] Kay McClelland: So I went back. I went back to Florinda, which was great because they paid you, you know, this exorbitant amount of money because of the union, thank you. So yeah, everybody went back and that was fun to have everybody back and sort of have the old show. And then to see how much the show had changed from the time that the people left. Then when they came back, it was like, oh, that's the way the show used to be. Not the way the show used to be, but those were the bits then. That was the timing then. You know, because these other people come in with different, you know, timing and.

[54:14] Ben Rimalower: Do you remember anything specific about that? I know for fans, it's so interesting to wonder the little ways that the show would have shifted and evolved over the run and different cast members coming in.

[54:29] Kay McClelland: Let's see, no. The answer to that, I guess, would be no. I do remember a couple of times when I would see, seeing the film, the film version specifically because I was doing The Baker's Wife, Joanna would do things in the recording. And I would think, I don't remember her doing that. I certainly don't do that.

[54:50] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[54:51] Kay McClelland: And I don't remember her doing that.

[54:52] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[54:53] Kay McClelland: You know, and with she and Chip, you know, they, obviously they had their own, their own universe going on. So they could do things differently with each other. And it was perfect every, you know, no matter what they did, because they read each other so well and had that wonderful relationship that fits so well. So, but I don't really remember huge adjustments that needed to be made, except for the camera, of course. You know, stand closer. You're either in the frame or out of the frame. So stand closer or stand farther away. Where you are is not right.

[55:34] Ben Rimalower: Did you have a sense of the significance of this being filmed at the time, that this was going to create this legacy of the original production?

[55:45] Kay McClelland: Yeah, I did. I thought that was the coolest thing about the whole run, really, because you did get to go back and see it. I mean, so many things I wish I could go back and see. I wish I could have seen, you know, a recording of Sugar Babies. What a thing would that have been? You know, to see Mickey and Ant do that show. They were just crazy. That was just some crazy shit that they did. And all of those characters were so reminiscent of that old time. And, you know, even now it's even older, but I mean, that vaudeville that, nobody knows what that is anymore. It just doesn't exist. And to have that, it would have been great. So yeah, that was wonderful. We were very excited about that, about that whole thing. And it was fun, even when we shot the commercial. You know, that was fun too, because it was, ah, get to see it again and again. You know, so.

[56:42] Ben Rimalower: Have you seen other productions of the show over the years?

[56:45] Kay McClelland: No, I've seen, that's not entirely true. I saw a couple of high school productions of it, but that's, that's it. You know, I left in 99.

[56:58] Ben Rimalower: So you didn't get to see any of the revivals.

[57:01] Kay McClelland: Left New York. I left New York in 99, yeah.

[57:05] Ben Rimalower: So that kind of.

[57:06] Kay McClelland: I mean, it's been done in Atlanta too.

[57:09] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I guess it has been.

[57:11] Kay McClelland: I don't think I was aware, aware of that. I guess it's been done pretty much everywhere, hasn't it?

[57:15] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, truly.

[57:16] Kay McClelland: Yeah, a million different productions.

[57:19] Ben Rimalower: And did you see the movie?

[57:21] Kay McClelland: Yes, I did see the movie.

[57:24] Ben Rimalower: So yeah, very different.

[57:25] Kay McClelland: Yeah.

[57:26] Ben Rimalower: Upside down Johnny Depp.

[57:27] Kay McClelland: Yeah.

[57:28] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, well.

[57:29] Kay McClelland: And Upside Down Princes, for that matter.

[57:30] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[57:32] Kay McClelland: Yeah, that, it was to me a little homogenized, if I could, well, that's probably not the thing to say, but it was, you know, to me, it wasn't as sharp to me as the live production. And of course that's probably just because it isn't.

[57:44] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[57:45] Kay McClelland: It's the nature of the beast.

[57:46] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[57:49] Kay McClelland: Wow, I mean, have your thoughts about what the show is or what it means changed over the years? Does it mean something different to you now than it did when you were doing it, just as a work?

[58:03] Kay McClelland: You know, doing it, understanding what the messages are and years later having children and finding out who the difference between who you are in one world and who you are in another world and the responsibility about your future and what, not just a legacy, but what you are instilling in another human being in caring for it, that that's been, you know, as a parent, just the eternal lesson, the everyday lesson. And it does go back. I mean, you know, my kids are so sick of me and Into the Woods, you know, because it's gotten, it's so popular. It was such a popular show among young people and people, my little girl was in high school and she has a beautiful voice. And the teacher, the chorus teacher said, you know, Ella, who do you know?

Do you know anybody who sings? Do you know anybody who has had any kind of experience with this? And up until that point, I thought they hated me. I mean, not hated me, but they hated what I did and they were embarrassed by me. And somebody would say, oh, your mom was this. And they would go, oh God, yes, my mom's that, whatever. But at this point she said, yeah, well, my mom was on Broadway. Everybody shifted. Oh, that was this, this, Ella's mom is this. So that little thing and how I felt about that, that's what I felt about my whole career at this point. It's all different. It's all deeper and more meaningful and richer and more important. It wasn't important before, but the messages of that show, of just, you know, there's nothing else like them.

[1:00:10] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:00:10] Kay McClelland: And in such a strange setting, fairy tales, which, you know, they're supposed to teach all that stuff. That's why they were invented. That's why we came up with them. But then to take it farther, you know, it was just lovely, a lovely time.

[1:00:27] Ben Rimalower: Well, you're lovely.

[1:00:28] Kay McClelland: And you are lovely.

[1:00:30] Ben Rimalower: So I'm so grateful to you for giving me this time. It's so great to hear your experience.

[1:00:36] Kay McClelland: Thank you. I feel like I'm just kind of babbling.

[1:00:40] Ben Rimalower: No, you're terrific. This is so great. And now that your kids are getting older, you know, maybe you'll come back.

[1:00:46] Kay McClelland: Oh, I don't know about that.

[1:00:50] Kay McClelland: I don't know about that. You know, it's funny. I just, I think about, I don't think I could do that. There have been a couple of times that I've needed to sing a couple of things at a wedding, I think, and when my parents were alive, I think I sang for the women's club. And I don't know who that person is anymore that got up on stage and did those things. I couldn't be that person and be a mom. I was too crazy. And they think I'm crazy as it is. So, you know, but thank you so much for having me. And I'm sorry it took me so long to come back to you.

[1:01:21] Ben Rimalower: It was worth the wait. I'm so happy to talk to you.

[1:01:24] Kay McClelland: And we will talk again.

[1:01:25] Ben Rimalower: We will talk.

[1:01:26] Kay McClelland: I hope so.

[1:01:27] Ben Rimalower: And good luck on your book.

[1:01:28] Kay McClelland: Thank you so much. You're just a font of information yourself. I'm sure I'll be following up with more questions when that's happening.

[1:01:35] Ben Rimalower: It's out before.

[1:01:39] Ben Rimalower: Thank you for listening to Giants in the Sky, how Sondheim and Lepine went into the woods on the Broadway Podcast Network. Look out for episode 47 with David Warren, assistant to the director at the Old Globe and on tour.