This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Ben Rimalower: Broadway Podcast Network presents Giants in the Sky: How Sondheim and Lapine Went Into the Woods with me, Ben Rimalower.

[0:08] Ben Rimalower: Today's guest, David Warren, assistant to the director at The Old Globe and on tour.

[0:13] Ben Rimalower: Once upon a time.

[0:19] Ben Rimalower: David Warren worked as assistant to director James Lapine on Into the Woods in its Playwrights Horizons workshop, Old Globe World Premiere, and later on its original national tour, having earlier assisted Lapine on the La Jolla Playhouse production of Merrily We Roll Along.

[0:36] Ben Rimalower: David quickly matriculated to directing on his own, and his long resume includes Broadway productions of Summer and Smoke and Holiday, National Tours of Copacabana and Jekyll and Hyde, the world premieres of Bruce Sussman and Barry Manilow's Harmony and William Finn's Romance in Hard Times, and an extensive list of acclaimed off-Broadway shows at both commercial and nonprofit venues, including the Drama Department, of which he is a founding member.

[1:02] Ben Rimalower: He is particularly known for his collaborations with Nicky Silver, helming the original productions of The Altruists, The Eros Trilogy, Fit to Be Tied, Raised in Captivity, and Pterodactyls, for which David won the 1994 Obie Award.

[1:16] Ben Rimalower: David is also a prolific television director with dozens of credits on major series.

[1:41] David Warren: Nobody took pictures. Nobody posted. All this magic happened in these rooms. And all we have really is our memories. So it's cool that you're gonna kind of create an archive of them.

[1:53] Ben Rimalower: Thank you. Well, and thank you for your participation. And um that I'm I'm sure that you know, we all wish we had memories more agile than we do, but uh I have noticed that people that were younger at the time of the show, both because they're younger now, so they might have stronger memories now, but also you know, if it was a more kind of seminal experience for someone who's just starting out, you know, you went on to have um a major career as a director on stage and screen, but this was you know, before really most of that had really gotten cooking. So, you know, I'm sure you had a unique perspective entering into this experience.

[2:31] David Warren: Yeah, I mean it it was it James Lapine kind of gave me a career. He made me a director. I I didn't, you know, I did I didn't go to school for directing, I didn't go to graduate school. I kind of went to the school of hard knocks combined with the school of James Lapine and Des McAnuff and just being lucky enough to assist those two guys. Um I I really I need to preface anything I can say about this show with the fact that I really was like I was an extra, you know, in a big movie. I mean, I was James's assistant, so uh maybe at best a fly on the wall. Um, but I I can't imagine that I have much to add to, you know, what Chip, Joanna, James, those people had to say. But uh, you know, what I can kind of give you is what it felt like to be I was really I was a kid.

Um and I I I sort of woke up every day going, I can't believe I have this job. Um so yeah, okay, set that up for me. Um, you know, okay. Give me the context. Where were you in your life when you first heard that there was such a thing as this fairy tale musical?

[3:40] David Warren: Okay, uh, well, I had I was struggling to become a director in New York. I was very young, I was probably 23, 24, and um I was making a living working in for set designers and uh doing props, um, and trying desperately to figure out like how do I get out of that rut? Um well, it wasn't a rut. How does this not become a ride? And uh I spent a summer at La Jolla Playhouse as a set design assistant, basically like a slave in the design department, um, just to be around theater. And it was the summer that Des did uh Big River, and it was a very cool summer. I mean, um I mean it was a beautiful, it was an amazing theater, and it had just reopened, it was very vibrant and exciting. And I cut on the last day of my of basically the last day of my time there, I got up all my courage and I went up to Des and I said, I don't want to be a set designer, I want to be a director.

Could I ever assist you? And he said, Well, you know, we mainly we we use the UCSD grad students. Um, and I thought, oh I'm going back to the poor house. Um, and the rich kids will get this job. Um but he said, you know, there's some possibilities. And like two weeks later, he called me and he said, James Lapine is uh rewriting Merrily We Roll Along with Stephen Sondheim. Would you be interested in assisting him? Because it the schedule doesn't line up with our the sort of the academic schedule. So a UCSD student can't do that uh AD job. Uh and I said, Oh, yes, I'd be very interested. Um, and I met James, and I, you know, I I I had I don't know what I pause, I don't know what I could have said because it's just not like I could say, here's how all the job, I had never assisted a director.

I'd never done anything really, except you know, build set models. But James, as I'm sure you know, comes from a design background because he was a graphic designer. And I guess something about that and something about who I was, we kind of clicked, and I I mean, I just loved him instantly. I just found him so fascinating and um a little cold, which I loved, and just funny and cool and smart and hilarious. I just I I loved him and I wanted the job desperately, and he gave it to me. So I worked on that show in La Jolla, and uh that's how I got to know James and and Steve Sondheim a little bit, you know, as I said earlier, as an extra in the movie. Um when they started to work on Into the Woods, um I I kind of you know, it's not like James and I were friends, but I was aware of what he was doing.

Um, and he asked me to assist him on the very, very first readings at Playwrights Horizons when it didn't have any songs. Um, and that's where my those are the that that chapter, it's not like I was on drugs because I wasn't, but it's so long ago. Uh I know I remember that I remember, you know, Chip and Joanna and Robert Sean Leonard was Jack. Um and uh it was this fascinating thing that I thought, like, how's this gonna work? And is there gonna be a second act? Because there wasn't really a second act. Um and it was just basically, as I'm sure James told you, you know, this kind of Jungian uh Bruno Bettelheim inspired examination or cracking open of fairy tales. Um but as soon as you know, he's such a great writer, um it was or even without the songs, it was fascinating.

And as I I'm sure you know, their process, James and Steve's process, it was very much about James writing things, uh, much of which became the book, and much of which was kind of devoured by Stephen Sondheim and turned into songs, uh, which of course he wrote and he wrote the lyrics, but it would be a uh it would be beats, big beats.

[7:55] David Warren: So that was pretty cool. Um that evolved into a second reading, uh also Playwrights Horizons, and there were songs some songs in the first act. Um and Betty Buckley played The Witch, I remember that. Um, because I was very like in awe of her, and they they would send me to pick her up in the morning because she's she's the greatest, but she tends to be she runs late, and Betty and I are really good friends, so I'm not speaking out of turn. She would uh she would agree that she runs a little late. Um, but she's the greatest. Uh and Chip and Joanna, and I boy, I can't remember who the heck else was in it, but you probably someone has told you.

[8:37] David Warren: Well, there's a lot of uh confusion about these uh Playwrights Horizons readings. Uh there were two.

[8:46] David Warren: Well, I knew there was like the earliest one, and then there was the one that was more of like a little reading reading reading with people learning music. So, like I know that that um second reading that they called a workshop, because I think it was like a couple of weeks of rehearsal, it was Betty as the witch. Chip was not in it, it was Joanna, but Ray Gill was the baker.

[9:08] Ben Rimalower: And um that was that true?

[9:11] David Warren: Yeah, I mean rather well. Pardon me?

[9:18] David Warren: Ray did the national tour later, and I must have known I I yeah, I got that I think that's maybe why I didn't even remember. So who else and who like who was who was the mysterious old man?

[9:28] David Warren: So uh Cinderella like uh Cinderella was Mary Darcy. Um the narrator was Bob Gunton.

[9:36] Ben Rimalower: Wait, this one I can actually like pull up.

[9:39] David Warren: This one is have you ever heard of this website, uh Overture.com. It's like overture with no ease. And um it lists it's like uh database of theater productions, not just Broadway and off Broadway. Um, but uh really uh detailed stuff.

[9:58] David Warren: So okay, this cast was um John Cunningham was the narrator, and uh also the wolf and also the steward. Oh no, excuse me, I'm looking at the Old Globe, don't even that was erase what I just said.

[10:13] David Warren: Definitely the Old Globe.

[10:14] David Warren: Yeah, I'm jumping ahead. I don't I don't want to go there yet.

[10:17] David Warren: Okay, Playwrights Horizons.

[10:19] David Warren: Uh Ray Gill was the baker, Mary uh the narrator was Bob Gunton, Robert Sean Leonard was Jack, Daniel Furland and Barbara Brynn. The princes were um Howard McGillen and um uh Patrick Quinn.

[10:34] David Warren: Um Betty was the witch, and wait, where's the mysterious man was John Carpenter, who also played Cinderella's father?

[10:43] David Warren: Um but the reading before that, the one you described with No Music, which I think was in November or December of 85.

[10:52] David Warren: Um that's the murky one.

[10:55] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[10:56] David Warren: Nobody knows who played the witch.

[10:58] David Warren: Uh Christine Ebersole was uh the baker's wife.

[11:04] David Warren: And um Chip played one of the princes, and apparently James was very unhappy with him.

[11:12] David Warren: Um there's almost like no Danielle is Danielle was a little red, and uh she thinks Robert Sean Leonard was also Jack in that first reading.

[11:25] David Warren: Only because Bob and I became friends, uh, and also maybe just because I I was so young, I was so young that like it seemed like I should be friends with Jack.

[11:36] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[11:39] David Warren: Um I I remember very I absolutely remember that it was Bob uh and Danielle in that very first reading.

[11:46] David Warren: But then that yeah, and that that one, it's so funny, and that everybody's a little vague about it. It was very fast.

[11:52] David Warren: It really was just reading something that James had written.

[11:55] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[11:56] David Warren: Um and it went fast.

[11:58] David Warren: I don't I mean, I don't think there was even maybe a quick few hours of rehearsal and then just a reading.

[12:04] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[12:04] David Warren: Almost a cold reading.

[12:06] David Warren: But that workshop was when it began.

[12:08] David Warren: Uh you know, that was the first real metaphor, a birth metaphor, but birth is like that only happens once, so it's not really a good.

[12:17] David Warren: I can't find the it.

[12:18] David Warren: It was like the first labor pain.

[12:20] David Warren: I don't know.

[12:20] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, maybe the heartbeat or the ultrasound or something.

[12:24] David Warren: Um the first for sex.

[12:27] David Warren: Yeah the first the first compilation yes um well we c we could beat this metaphor to death but um uh so that was in I think June of eighty six and then workshop yeah and then you guys uh opened in um San Diego in I think November or December of 86.

[12:49] David Warren: Yeah and and you know again just like it the my personal recollection was um like I knew I had had I had sort of tasted how magic this show was I I just knew and you know I said to James please can I assist you in in at the globe and he said oh I love it uh and then he called me said you know they don't they they just want to give me an intern. They don't have any money for it and I said uh you don't I don't you don't need to pay me um and let give me give me two hours uh and I will come back with a proposal and I called the um one of the like board members of the La Jolla Playhouse who I kind of gotten to know who was insanely rich um and said could I stay in your house be to work on this show uh and she said of course you can and you can have we'll give you a Jaguar and uh that we'd be so honored so I came back to James and I said I you don't have you don't have to pay me I don't want to get paid I just want to work on the show uh if they'll fly me out there and then you know he's he's so like he's just so funny and uncutly, but in his way, like a big like so sweet.

[14:06] David Warren: And he came back and would called me back and he said, Well, yeah, they'll fly you. And of course you're not gonna do it for free. We'll I'll figure something out. It's just too pathetic. Uh you know, I figured I probably got like $25 a week. But it was the theater, and I was really in it, not just on the edge, so I was like so excited. Um and then, yeah, and then and I I again uh this is probably gonna be there's probably like a lot of crisscrossing could possibly uh conflicting memories. What I I remember there were still almost no songs in the second act uh when we went into rehearsal. Um and there's certainly and this this I remember perfect, there were none of the like the money songs right um in the set in the second act.

The first act was pretty much ready to go. Um and uh like I know I mean I know no more wasn't in wasn't written at the first by the first rehearsal. I know that uh no one is alone, which you know I think I feel like that's the show. I mean, there's so many in the second act, so many moments in the second act that make you feel like, oh now I understand this show, now I know what the show's about. But no one is alone for me was the one, and um that was written I I'm almost positive uh during previews. I remember we opened it wasn't written. Yeah, and then there was the the moment that no one will ever forget when Steve came into rehearsal with it. Um that was I mean, I can't think about it without starting to cry. Wow.

[15:42] Ben Rimalower: So just backing up into that rehearsal process, I think you guys rehearsed in New York at the West Beth uh for that production.

[15:50] David Warren: Yes. Yeah, the West Beth. Um so funny. Um I had forgotten that. But only James Lapine and Steven Sondheim could tell a resident theater we don't want to rehearse in your city. Yes. And get and be and and be told okay. Um and they were told, yeah, that's right. We so we rehearsed there. Um actually I'm jumping the gun because some people have talked to me about before those rehearsals started, that there was a sort of um staging workshop, lowercase W at the West Beth with NYU students, where as it was described to me, James wanted to see whether he could do the musical staging without a choreographer, and I guess he was satisfied enough with what happened in that process that he went to San Diego with no choreographer. Does that ring a bell at all?

[16:44] David Warren: Yes, exactly correct. Um I I was not part of the NYU thing. Um whatever I I can't remember why. Um, but I do remember there was no lore at yeah, right. So okay, and then rehearsals start at the West Beth. And I mean, uh, you know, you'd you'd worked on that that Merrily, um, which for whatever changes were being made was a you know, at least uh it was a full script, even if the script was in flux. What what was how was your mind?

[17:20] David Warren: Well it was the full it was full score, but James really was rehearsed. So I mean, I I had sort of been in I'd been part of James's process as a writer, as a book writer, um, and director. Um, but certainly not something that it that is not the same as you know the magic, because I'd never seen a musical kind of be born, so it was all very, I can't believe I'm here. Had you been like a Sondheim nerd kind of like in the years prior to that?

[17:48] David Warren: No, no. I mean, I I and I also I think kind of think that's another reason James hired me. I I really did, I was not particularly into musicals. It wasn't my thing at all. I was much more into rock and roll. Um I mean, I'd seen a bunch of musicals uh because I like I loved theater, um, and I and I had a connection to musicals, but it wasn't my thing. And I wasn't like a Sondheim groupie, although it was, you know, it was impossible not to be, I don't even know what the word is, not just intimidated, but kind of in awe of and stunned by him. And then you know, once I start once I started to work on Merrily, then I went back and I studied uh his work, so that by the time we did uh Into the Woods, I f I could I I I knew everything about his work and uh was even more in awe of and terrified um and he was very nice, but you know, it was just I you know like when I got the first time I got a message from him on my answering machine, I came home and my roommate in our like crappy little East Village apartment was like just standing in the living room, and he said, Stephen Sondheim just called you.

You got a call from Stephen Sondheim, and I played David Steve. What the hell? What time are we rehearsing tomorrow? Can you give me a call? Uh I kept that, you know, grumpy nothing message for about 12 years.

[19:20] David Warren: I mean, so having done like your homework on those Sondheim shows before that, were you sitting in there uh in those rehearsals, you know, uh having moments where you thought, oh wow, this giants in the sky or you know, maybe they're really magic, or you know, that the oh this is this is gonna go in that same canon or was it still kind of like we'll see if this show can work, you know.

[19:46] David Warren: Uh to be a hundred I thought it was amazing. Like I didn't know that that meant it was gonna work or be successful or that everybody would like it. But there was never a second where I didn't think this is the most amazing thing I've ever heard or one of the most amazing things I've ever heard. It was puzzling you know how you know booky the second act was so it's hard to be like this thing is gonna sail the Broadway. Yeah. Um but there also was something about the first act that was so complete um in a way that s felt almost as much like a glitch as you know uh uh a feature only because it made the second act seem like it needed so much more work. Uh in the end it didn't need so much more work it just needed s what it got which was Steve to write some of the most beautiful songs he's ever written.

But so it's interesting I don't remember thinking I I certainly wasn't presumptuous enough to say like I know this is is or isn't a hit. I know I couldn't uh have been more moved and uh just devastated by how beautiful it was like being in the room and hearing those voices and hearing hearing Chip and Joanna really like find out who those characters were because they really that that's they sort of nailed it at the workshop and they stayed, and they just they get they got better, but they were they they kind of it was very venous on the half shell with those two.

[21:25] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[21:25] David Warren: So I I guess long that that's a really long, I don't even know if I answered your question. I knew the first I knew it was amazing. Uh I knew I loved it, and I knew the first act was seemed like perfection, and I had no idea uh even going into rehearsal, how the second act would work with it. Uh would it defeat it? Would it do what it I certainly didn't think it was would do what it did, which was make it a masterpiece. And aside from what you thought in in your opinion at the time, but what do you recall observing uh James and Steven doing in terms of you know, did you think God, these masters are flummox trying to crack this nut, or they've got it in their head and they're just figuring it out on stage, or you know, what was the process you were witnessing?

[22:19] David Warren: I think I witnessed I certainly didn't feel like they were flummoxed. I think uh I I think it was two great artists, uh, one of whom you know was obsessed with puzzles, um solving a puzzle. I can it didn't it never felt like well also neither of those two men, certainly not uh James, like panic isn't really one of their colors. Yeah. Uh like James is so look uh he's so um I mean, if he has if he experiences panic, I I I don't know, he processes it in a way that's different from other people. He's just very uh even keeled uh and droll about problems. Uh it's something I really like loved about him and looked up to and for a long time thought because that's not who I am, I wish I could be more like that.

Um but I do I think they struggled. I mean, I know, you know, they until the song arrived, there wasn't a song, and without a song, there's a hole. And um, so there were a lot of holes, but uh I I it it never occurred, it didn't feel to me like oh they're not gonna get there. It felt like I can't wait to see how they get there because you know, and and one by one, as those songs arrived for the second act, one was more beautiful than the next. And you know, there was a few that weren't never arrived in that, as I'm sure you know, you know, like there wasn't that amazing witch lament, that wasn't there. There was uh a rap, um Boom Crunch. I'm pretty sure it was called. Right. Um so yeah, I mean they and they but they got I got I think I would say they got about 80% there, 75, 80 percent in San Diego.

[24:08] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[24:08] David Warren: And what about in terms of trial in terms of trial and error? Did you see them like, you know, were there things that that we don't know about even that they sort of you know experimented with and then you know retracted?

[24:24] David Warren: Well, mainly just like book stuff. Um you know, like the Baker and Cinderella's relationship, trying different colors for that. I remember. I don't I don't remember them cutting any song, like bringing in a song and then saying this doesn't work. Everything that everything that everything new that got written, I mean, I I do remember there were cuts because the first act, you know, I the first act was like two and a half hours or something. Um it was very long. Uh and that combined with the problems in the second act really made it feel like people are gonna think, why am I come what am I coming back for? Yeah. Um so I know a lot of cuts, um, but I it was it was uh it what I remember, and I had never thought about any of this, and because it's I just never have, but thinking about it now, what I remember feeling was this miraculous forward motion with that show.

Like I never felt wandering they were wandering in the woods. I never felt they were spinning their wheels. Yeah. I just felt like one by one these songs appeared uh that were beautiful in a way that was different from how beautiful the first act was. Um then, you know, leading up to uh no one is alone, and that that's when I just that's when I thought this is the most beautiful thing I've ever heard. And I, you know, I just felt so honored to be in the room.

[25:57] David Warren: That that's a common, it seems like that's a real uh thread among everyone that was present at that particular rehearsal and then in the process in general that that that's you cannot you can't imagine what it felt like because it was like it wasn't just the piece of how miraculously it was the jigs the jigsaw puzzle piece that had a you know uh needed to be exactly that shape. It wasn't just that, it was also, you know, Steven Sondheim with his terrible craggy old man singing voice, like he was such a bad singer, just sitting down and singing the more the wisest, most beautiful thing I I think maybe that he's ever written. He's written other things equally beautiful, but nothing more beautiful.

Um, and just looking around the room and seeing everybody just crying, like a room full of like even James, I think probably teared up. Yeah. And he's so he's so not a crier. No. Although maybe he's a lot older now. He could he he could be used, he could have he might be more of a softie.

[27:01] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[27:02] David Warren: It definitely was softy back then. No.

[27:04] Ben Rimalower: And then what about like in terms of were these songs prescribed? Were there a lot of conversations before no one is alone showed up about what that moment needed that then you were waiting for Steve to deliver?

[27:16] David Warren: Or I think to be honest, most of that conversation was very private and between those the two. Yeah. So what I would get would be, you know, James's funny spin on a meeting that they had, a conversation that they had, you know.

[27:32] David Warren: Well, he's never gonna write that song. Um, knowing he would. And but but I I so I don't know. I I I know um I know they would have meetings alone. Um it's not like you know, anybody else was giving them notes. Uh although James was very open, particularly as a director, you know, Jack O'Brien gave notes, and Jack was a very um, he was such a cheerleader for the project. So, but but you know, that kind of the mysterious uh how did they write the songs? If I don't know if anyone has told you they were there and they know how it happened I wasn't I only saw them in uh and see how you know they kind of how magically uh Steve would just slowly and steadily solve the puzzle and what was your job uh assisting James you know did were you taking notes on blocking were you running errands were you you know what were you going to run scenes with actors in another room what was your responsibility it was it was well it wasn't it was definitely wasn't like personal assistant yeah stuff just because again James was so private like yeah I I would actually I tried very hard to get him to ask me to do stuff like that because he was he was doing two gigantic jobs um and uh I would you know I would occasionally do stuff for him we need we need we need the we need a gaffer to come in and put up a flag um he but uh I was with him all the time in rehearsal um and I would take you know endless notes uh I was more his uh I was his directing assistant because his writing process he just didn't he he never had a writing a writer's assistant uh as far as I know so I was you know in the room with him uh all the time when we did the national the first national tour, he did actually, it was I well, that we'll talk about that later.

But I did, you know, get to kind of be his assistant director, um, which was a huge promotion. Uh, but in in at the Globe, I I was just his directing assistant next to him all the time. Uh I I introduced him to a note-giving system that Des Mackinoff created that he fell in love with, and that became it's it I I it does, I know it came from Des, and Des got it from someone in Canada, uh, but it's now become the kind of gold standard of theater note giving.

[30:27] Ben Rimalower: Say more.

[30:29] David Warren: It's having on a little notepad. Um, this is during like a run through starts at run throughs and goes through previews, and not a big pad where you write all the notes on one long on a pad. You have a little, you know, this is a notepad where you and the idea is the director gives the assistant a note one at a time as the show as it's as the thing is proceeding. Oh, uh Cinderella, pick up Q after, da-da-da-da-da. And you write C and that note, and then you flip the page, uh, and the next note is on its own page. So you have one note per page, and then the minute the rehearsal, the run through or the preview or the dress rehearsal is over, the assistant takes the notes and sorts them into piles.

Unless there's the director says, Oh, I want to give we're I'm gonna do a note session, and I want to, I'm gonna have everyone together, at which point you still have the notes that way. And the great thing is, as the director gives the note, you give the actor or the set designer or the stage manager the notes, and then they get a little pile. But it's particularly useful when there isn't gonna be one of those. And de uh, you know, Des or James would say, you know, meet me at the theater at 6:45, and we could go from person to person and there'd just be a little pile. Um so basically, the challenge for the assistant was always, you know, keeping up uh and learning how much I would have to write to know what I what it what it meant, and then go back later and turn what sometimes was like some kind of a strange glyph into uh into an actual note.

Yeah, I so I did that with James, and he loved that, and that was my gift to him. Um yeah, just lots and lots of notes, a little a little bit take, you know, occasionally because Steven came to he didn't bring an assistant. Um occasionally I would you know go to his hotel room and like he would hand me sheet music, and that it would be like the I I couldn't believe like to go get it copied. Um, and it was incredible, that was always incredible. And I'll never forget, like one time I didn't bring it right back, and it's he called and he said, You still got pages, da-da-da-da. Like he he knew I think part of it was he sort of knew it was like Picasso, like everybody wants to steal his sheet music because it wouldn't be like imagine having a sheet, uh you know, like a the original version of No One is Alone, like one page of that would be you know, the mind boggles.

Um I think I was just held up doing something, and I was like, it got back to him a little bit late. Um, but he remembered perfectly, he knew exactly what he had left his home in terms of originals, yeah. Um and one time I was charged with bringing him to a restaurant, and I thought it was, and this was when I thought maybe I had my career was over and I'd never work in show business again. Because you know, Steven is a was a great genius, but he was a little like like a lot of geniuses. There were things he wasn't good at, and I guess I slightly overestimated his ability to kind of it receive information like the it's that restaurant across the street. Like I got him, I walked him, drove him to the street, parked the car, got out of the car and said it's that restaurant, and didn't wait.

And I like an hour and an hour later, James called me and he said, you know, Steve got lost, and he's never and James, you know, this was his evil side and said, and he's never gonna speak to you again. And I went into like a shame spiral, uh, thinking what it was when it was Saturday night, which is why they went to dinner. What can I do? What how can I make this right? And I had this in and I was up all night, all night. And at like five in the morning, I thought, the New York Times, the Sunday Times. And I went to a new went to a newsstand and I bought the Sunday Times and I left it outside his hotel room with a note saying, please forgive me, David. And I got like an hour and a half later, I got this message, which was well, no, he thought not a message.

He just called me and he said, David, it's Steve. And well, I was prepared to never forgive you, but you are forgiven. Like it was it the New York Times was the thing, and that's why I have a question. That's why I wasn't banished from show business.

[35:03] Ben Rimalower: Because you're smart.

[35:04] David Warren: Um, so okay, a lot of lucky and a little lucky. He had nothing to have it delivered. Yes, right. Um so a lot of things were changed from the old globe production uh prior to Broadway. Um uh for example, the um uh Rapunzel had been played by Kay McLelland in addition to playing Florinda. Um she was Florinda, not Lucinda. But no, right, she was Florinda. Um, remember because Lauren starts with an L. That was my my um but uh do do you was do you remember conversations about that decision or was that always the intention and it was just a cost saving tactic at the old globe.

[35:56] David Warren: No, I I mean I you know I'm sure you know I wasn't the assistant director on Broadway because I didn't wanna I I really needed to kind of cut the umbilical cord and uh not be an assistant and I had started to direct, so it was a big scary decision. Um so you'd have to what you have to do for to have to pick up the the narrative, you've got to get in touch with RJ Cutler. Tell him I said he should talk to you because there's I can only take you so far along this road. Yes. Um this is an act one act one conversation. Um okay, so we won't get into it. Although I did back to the project to do the tour, uh 'cause James called me and z and said I really could use your help with that because RJ didn't want to do it.

Uh and he said we have to put it up really fast, and you know, the show. And by that time I had started, you know, I had I get given notes uh several I g I had given notes on the Broadway production because he would call uh RJ kind of moved on pretty quickly. Um and I had a relationship with this the show, and I I tried I thought about saying no, and then I couldn't, and then it turned out to be really exciting because you know it was rehear the tour was the three houses, and James would say, You go, you do Jack's house and I'll do uh the Baker's house. Um and we and I got to kind of help him remount it. Um but then but there's that big, you know, that big exciting Broadway phase involving uh Bernadette Peters, uh, who I only got to meet, you know peripherally.

[37:40] Ben Rimalower: So um okay, so speaking of Bernadette Peters, it was Ellen Foley playing the witch at the old globe. Um did you have a sense uh while you were in San Diego that she was going to be replaced when the show went forward.

[37:59] David Warren: Not I not because she wasn't she wasn't great, she actually was really great. Yeah, I just got a sense that what I what I uh what I remember and Ellen and I became really good friends, she was like one of the people I hung out with a lot. Yeah. Um I knew that they were they felt like the role had to become a much bigger part. And instinctively knew it was gonna in a weird way become the star. Um if he a star in the show. Uh and I kind of weirdly intuited that Bernadette Peters was gonna play The Witch. Um, and that if it wasn't Bernadette Peters, it would be uh, you know, someone famous. Right. But I had a we I just knew, and it's not that they ever said, like, we're just this is a role for Bernadette Peters, and we're just asking someone to do it out of town.

It wasn't that at all. You know, I just I I knew the role was gonna develop. Um, I mean, when Betty Buckley did it, I remember she said to me, I will never play this part. Why why would I want to play this part? I have a rap. I'm Betty Buckley. Give me a great song and I'll play this part. And she didn't say it yet in a diva way. She was right. It was, you know, if you have that voice, you have to write something for it. And the witch was a little bit in between the two stools in San Diego. It wasn't as underwritten as it was during the workshop, but it certainly wasn't, you know, what it became.

[39:37] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[39:37] David Warren: And so um, well, uh, people have talked about the fact that Bernadette saw the show uh purportedly at the old globe. Do you remember that?

[39:48] David Warren: Yeah, of course. I was there for the whole run. I was there for the whole run. Yeah. It was a very short run, and we kept working on it. And I had I was living rent-free in a mansion. Yeah, board members' house. So why would I believe? But I mean, how I this is the thing that I keep coming up against, like logically speaking, is like, are we really supposed to believe that Bernadette, who had had like a major triumph in their previous musical, Sunday in the Park with George, was sitting in the audience of this show where they knew they wanted a star for this role that they didn't have yet, and that there was not uh consideration that that was the star.

[40:31] David Warren: Yeah, I mean, certainly people talked about that. Um honestly, I it's it it was never uh it never felt like there was some there was a plan. Right. To I think there was a I think I think there was a lot up in the air. Um I also think to be you know just devil's advocate, uh she was very she and James were very, very close. She and Steve were very close. Yeah. She and James are um so you know, as a as a friend and as one of their great collaborators, uh it does make sense that she would go see the show.

[41:10] David Warren: Lots of things people can't went to the show.

[41:12] Ben Rimalower: Absolutely.

[41:13] David Warren: Um I think that combined with what amused she was for both of them made a lot of us think, well, she's gonna be the witch on Broadway.

[41:23] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[41:24] David Warren: Uh including Ellen. I mean, I'm sure I'm sure Ellen.

[41:28] Ben Rimalower: No, Ellen did not know that there was a second workshop in New York the following summer with Betty Buckley.

[41:34] David Warren: Ellen thought that she was just a placeholder for the part that Bernadette Peters was already going to play.

[41:41] Ben Rimalower: I mean, it's like a conspiracy theory if you talk to Ellen about it about it.

[41:45] David Warren: Um but I don't think it was, to be honest.

[41:49] Ben Rimalower: No, no.

[41:50] David Warren: Well, because then I know I'm a little confused on the timing, but I know that at some point there was a lot of audition being held for different stars to play The Witch. I know maybe you were there for some of that, Patty Lapone, Eartha Kitt, any of that.

[42:00] Ben Rimalower: Um Catula Clark.

[42:08] David Warren: Um and uh most of them ended up playing it somewhere, I'm sure.

[42:14] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, right.

[42:14] David Warren: Well, except Patty.

[42:16] Ben Rimalower: Um, not yet.

[42:17] David Warren: But uh so and then also like, but I mean the Bernadette thing, there's a little bit of like uh contradiction in what the sort of stories that are told. Because on one hand, it's well, of course we loved Bernadette, she was our muse, but this was too small a part. Bernadette could never play a part this small.

[42:37] Ben Rimalower: But then I've heard from a lot of people, including just now you the intention was to make the part bigger because they needed to have a star to play the witch. They were the role that wanted a star, you know.

[42:49] David Warren: Yeah, I think I mean I uh and a lot of that was just something that I intuited. Um, because again, I really was it was James's assistant, I was not his friend.

[42:58] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[42:59] David Warren: And it it you know, the the show so in it it just kept getting everything they added made it better, and and it was clear that you know someone was gonna be singing more stuff.

[43:12] Ben Rimalower: Um and so yeah, I I I just intuited that that's what would happen.

[43:19] David Warren: Um but as you said, it it wasn't wasn't I I don't think there was a plan because I think you kind of work on a show you step by step.

[43:31] Ben Rimalower: Um it certainly wasn't like we're building a vehicle for Bernadette P and how that thing.

[43:37] David Warren: Well, getting away from the casting then, so the run at the Old Globe ends at the beginning of January of 1987. At that point, what information did you have about what the next steps were?

[43:50] Ben Rimalower: And when did you make your decision not to be a part of that?

[43:54] David Warren: Well, it was uh, I mean, it you but the Dodgers and Jampson were obviously they enhanced the out-of-town production and had every intention of doing it, and then there was no doubt in anyone's mind that it was going to go to Broadway because it was so good, and it who players were.

[44:15] Ben Rimalower: Um, and then it was just a question of, you know, how what how do uh what do we need to do to go to kind of kick to get to reach the finish line that we're so close, um, but the second act isn't clearly isn't finished, finished, it's close to finished.

[44:32] David Warren: Um, and should we do another workshop? Uh and then I I at that point I realized I had to kind of get out of the James Lapine business just as an artist.

[44:44] Ben Rimalower: Uh also just because I was so I loved him so much, I was so in awe of him. I it would have been very easy for me to have like become to have lived in his shadow and as his as his lifelong assistant.

[45:00] David Warren: I mean, maybe he would disagree and say I couldn't stand him.

[45:03] Ben Rimalower: Um, but I don't think so.

[45:05] David Warren: Uh and I just I knew like I had to, I had to I had to take a chance. I had to kind of go back to zero because I wasn't I was in this super fancy world of like Broadway, Broadway musicals and Steven Sondheim, but I wasn't I wasn't it wasn't my work.

[45:22] Ben Rimalower: Yeah um and if I hung around it too long, I you would start to think, well, I don't want to go, why would I want to do a crappy little show downtown that no one's gonna come to see?

[45:32] David Warren: Which is exactly what I wanted to do. And yeah, so that's when I I just I I talked to James about it, and he he, you know, he actually really he helped me get my first agent, he sort of mentored me on the very first show I directed in New York at the New York Theater Workshop.

[45:49] Ben Rimalower: Uh I own him a lot.

[45:51] David Warren: So he it he was very he of course he understood, and he's not a very sentimental person, so it's not like he said, Oh, I'll miss you so much.

[46:02] Ben Rimalower: I but I like to think I felt uh you know, a certain amount of paternal uh pride.

[46:10] David Warren: Um and he has been lovely all along, ever since in in everything I've ever done.

[46:15] Ben Rimalower: So your involvement ended when you left San Diego until later with the tour.

[46:22] David Warren: Correct.

[46:23] Ben Rimalower: Until later when you gave notes on Broadway.

[46:26] David Warren: Um you didn't do any of that, the workshop or the choreographer auditions or any of that stuff that was happening in 1987.

[46:35] Ben Rimalower: Um interesting.

[46:37] David Warren: Um so then what did you were you invited to the Broadway opening?

[46:40] Ben Rimalower: I mean, were you like friend of the family? What was your relationship to this Broadway show?

[46:46] David Warren: Uh it it it my relationship to it was very bittersweet because soon as I went, I went to a preview, and I wasn't prepared for how you know perfect it had become, and you know, so I thought I want to be working on this show.

[47:05] Ben Rimalower: But I was I was doing some cool stuff as a director by that point.

[47:09] David Warren: Um and uh it was the right decision.

[47:12] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[47:13] David Warren: But it was near fun actually going back and seeing it because it was easier to um I guess it's it's a little, you know, you you you can see the forest a little better uh for the it's with any amount of distance.

[47:26] Ben Rimalower: I have no real distance from Into the Woods, I've seen it a billion times in regional theaters, beautiful revivals of it.

[47:33] David Warren: And the minute it starts, I my eyes sort of tear up and I I'm in love with it from the first note until the end.

[47:42] Ben Rimalower: Uh that said I could also appreciate how in some very subtle ways and in you know really huge ways it became a mas it went from being this beautiful flawed show to a masterpiece.

[47:56] David Warren: Yeah.

[47:56] Ben Rimalower: And I guess in retrospect it would have been fun to have seen all that happen too but yeah.

[48:03] David Warren: Yeah.

[48:03] Ben Rimalower: Um it's interesting I mean you said the thing about um a similar take when you left your job as like a props assistant and you know uh that you're it seems like you're someone who errs extremely on the side of not getting into a rut.

[48:18] David Warren: You know that you wouldn't you you wouldn't have even just seen this one show through to Broadway as the assistant you were just out.

[48:26] Ben Rimalower: Um I I think uh for better yeah no I I think for better.

[48:31] David Warren: I think that is how I because being the assistant to the director it's not like being a stage manager who is a key player.

[48:40] Ben Rimalower: Right you're part of the family but it's uh it's it's not what I what you want to do if you really are an artist.

[48:48] David Warren: Yeah.

[48:49] Ben Rimalower: So when you do it at that high a level um I it's it's very tempting.

[48:56] David Warren: It's very seductive.

[48:57] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[48:59] David Warren: But you resisted.

[49:00] Ben Rimalower: Um, so then uh but you saw your predictions came true. I mean, then you know, you heard Bernadette's playing the witch.

[49:07] David Warren: I mean, who do I almost I want to ask you who's gonna like win the Super Bowl or you know who's gonna be the next president.

[49:14] Ben Rimalower: Um but uh what at what point did you come back and and do notes with James during the run?

[49:22] David Warren: It's hard for me to remember at what point I it was sometime before uh we did the tour.

[49:30] Ben Rimalower: So if you look at the chronology, yeah, um that's the whole first year of the Broadway run.

[49:38] David Warren: Yeah, I it I know he, you know, because there it was with when when Marin was playing Rapunzel.

[49:48] Ben Rimalower: Yeah um and I knew Marin because she was in uh Marilee Wee Rolls.

[49:53] David Warren: Yes.

[49:54] Ben Rimalower: It was her first big job, it was my first big job.

[49:56] David Warren: So we uh we bonded deeply.

[50:00] Ben Rimalower: Um yeah, so I remember that uh hanging out doing around that I don't remember when Maren went in, but I know that around the time I started doing notes occasionally with James, um and by that time he I had sort of graduated to like he would even say, like, why don't you go there were some people uh like I couldn't give notes to, um, but there were some people I could, like Maren.

[50:28] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

[50:30] David Warren: Um, and then uh so when you got the job to be the assistant then on the tour, um what what do you remember about that process?

[50:41] Ben Rimalower: Cleo Lane and uh well one thing about the tour I'm especially curious about is that um uh Ira White well James had spoken extremely highly to me about uh Ray Gill.

[50:54] David Warren: Um and uh Ira and Ira Whitesman and Chip both talked about how James was so in love with Ray as the baker in the workshop that he was resistant to cast Chip as the baker, which of course is mind blowing to everybody who thinks of Chip as the you know definition of the baker.

[51:16] Ben Rimalower: Um, but then uh like Mary Gordon Murray talked about how, even though she had been a replacement Baker's wife on Broadway, that the take for the national tour was not these sort of New York Jews that Chip and Joanna uh characterize, but that they were this sort of middle American couple with Ray and and and her.

[51:36] David Warren: Um does any of that strike according?

[51:40] David Warren: 100%. I mean, it's interesting you know, the casting is so fascinating. Ray and Chip are actually nothing alike.

[51:48] Ben Rimalower: Hey.

[51:49] David Warren: Um Ray is more like James Lapine. I mean, James is Jewish, but he's not he's not New York Jewish.

[51:58] Ben Rimalower: He's very waspy.

[52:01] David Warren: Um I didn't know he was Jewish until I started doing this podcast.

[52:06] Ben Rimalower: Oh, see, there you go.

[52:07] David Warren: Yeah.

[52:08] Ben Rimalower: Um Chip was magic.

[52:13] David Warren: Um, and I think sometimes I know this has happened a lot with writers.

[52:20] Ben Rimalower: Um that I've like I worked out when I worked on Desperate Housewives, Mark Cherry would say all the time, like I never imagined uh marsha cross as Bree because she she she was too warm, and everyone's like, well, but what was so funny about her was she wasn't very warm, and he was like, Well, but my mother is much colder, and the cool thing was that Marcia played all the cold hilarious colors uh in Bree that Mark had written but she also brought this humanity uh just an innate humanity that made Bree uh even more interesting than Mark knew she was and he loved it uh it was a great surprise it makes you realize you know you he saw one thing that I'm sure would have worked but then the actor sort of brings it in a slightly different direction that makes it something that's really actually better than what the writer saw in their head and uh I think Chip did that you know I think Chip just turned that character into this um something we'd never seen really yeah so and then I think Ray Gill played the part it was like going back to the original idea of the part like Ray Chip is sort of one of those actors who's like he part of his magic is he's so like there's so much uh and yet it's all very disciplined and clear and he's a great actor it's not out of control but he he's he's almost like a he he's like a chaos a fascinating chaos and again he can play stillness he can do anything yeah but in neutral he's neurotic.

[54:16] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[54:16] David Warren: Um and Ray Gill in neutral was the o literally the opposite.

[54:20] Ben Rimalower: Ray Gill was very still um and uh sort of uh like stoic, which was funny because it allowed the the character of the baker's wife to be the slight the eccentric sort of funny attic and he was this he was the straight man in the comedy team, yeah.

[54:39] David Warren: Uh which I think is probably how it was originally conceived, and then it worked out miraculously on with the original cast because the rule would be so who's got who you need a straight man, and neither of them was they were both the clown, yeah.

[54:53] David Warren: Um, but anyone was a little bit the straight person. It was weirdly, it was Joanna because her comedy is so dry, yeah. Uh, and I think that flipped, and that was fascinating and really fun to see. Um, I loved that. I, you know, Cleo Lane was so great because she really did, she really she had permission to kind of, I mean, you sing Steve's music exactly how he wrote it, but she it sounded really different. I mean, it sounded it really did sound like a jazz singer playing, uh, playing The Witch. Wow, and um, uh, what about, uh, dramatically? Was there something else that was notably different about Cleo's performance? Or comedically? I mean, I think she was less funny for sure. Yeah, I mean less funny than either Ellen Foley or Bernadette Peters.

She was, but she was, um, she was really moving. The thing about like Bernadette Peters is, is the there's a reason she's Bernadette Peters. She lit she can't she can do anything, yeah. She really can do it. She she could play, you know, she could have played Juliet when she was that age. She could play Arcadna now. She can she can she played Mama Ro. She can do anything because she's such a great artist. Um, so that's it's you can't really if you compare any almost anyone to her, they're gonna seem like, oh well, not quite as good. Um, was kind of a vocal magic and, uh, an enormous amount of heart. For someone who is not an experienced actress, she really did because she was an experienced concert performer, she knew how to like send it out.

And the audience just loved her. And what about, uh, Charlotte Ray? I mean, was she like audience crack? I mean, for because she is great, but also who she is. Yeah, so I mean it couldn't it was almost I would say almost to a fault in that like she kind of kept stealing moments, not because she was doing anything you know hoary or inappropriate, it's if the audience loved if they were they were out of their minds because it was Charlotte Ray. Yeah. Um, they only there that was there was the kind of that the the starry first cast, um, and they only did it like some a lot of them only did it until LA, as I recall. Um, and then, uh, I like I know Charlotte left, Cleo left, um, I think Bobby McNeil left.

Yeah, a lot of people left. So it and then it kind of became the the very clear, clean, pure what is this show on the page version of Into the Woods. Um, and it worked like Gangbusters. It worked like gangbusters with all that star power, but it also it's such a beautifully written piece of theater that, uh, it was it it kind of became, uh, uh, more of a, um, I don't know, just more of the what it is on the page served up perfectly. That's an interesting way to put it, and certainly, um, uh, Betsy Joslin, who's the witch you're talking about in that replacement cast, and, um, Mary Gordon Murray, like a lot and a lot a lot of other cast members too, continued, uh, Tracy Katz to recreate the roles in regional productions for years and years after that.

I mean, it's almost like the tour gave birth to that. Um, did you revisit a lot over the run of that tour? Yeah, I mean, even though I tried to break up with James, um, it it was hard also, but because he gave me a lot of responsibility on the tour. Um, and I actually would go in and put in replacements, you know. Like I remember I I put it, I I I put in Doug Sills when he came in. Um, I think he opened it. But he was the Rapunzel Prince, and then he got promoted. Oh, interesting. Wasn't was he always the Chuck Chuck Wagner was the first, uh, Cinderella's Prince and the Wolf on the tour. Um, after having Rapunzel's Prince. And Doug Sills was Rapunzel's Prince from the beginning. But then, uh, Doug talked to me about how he didn't like playing the wolf, and he only did it like as an understudy like once or something, but so, uh, but maybe there was other replacements.

Um, there was Betsy came in, yeah. And I guess, uh, Kathleen Rowe McAllen was Cinderella and then it was Jay Kettis. I know what I'm thinking. I'm thinking of I when Doug left the show and his replacement, by that point, like James was way too busy with other stuff. And I remember her I put in the Rapunzel Prince, uh, uh, replacement, which is sort of a time twister. Putting in the Rapunzel Prince replacement, yeah. Um, and, uh, so well that had to be more gratifying, even though you hadn't broken up completely, you know, that you were you were actually directing actors and, um, is that a very super fun rushed process being, um, uh, putting in replacements when you're on the road and you know?

Yeah, I mean it doesn't even on Broadway it tends to be you when when you hear when people tell you how much rehearsal time they had and that most of it was like you know, with a stage manager holding a book, yeah, uh, and then they got they got a put in, um, and then they were on Broadway. So yes, it it is like that. [1:01:00] They you know the and I think it was I think the actors really liked having someone we we had a great stage manager, stage managers are great at doing it, but also once they're once they're once they're in the show, the stage manager can watch it and watch for performance, but they have to watch everything. Yeah. Um, so you know, I would go it was also fun. What I liked about the tour was I liked that I got to direct the actors, you know, direct James's work, but realize his vision.

But, you know, I got to work with the actors. But also like I would get to go to like weird cities. Um, that you I would never have otherwise like Phoenix, Arizona, what is that gonna be like so that was sort of fun. And I went to a bunch of and then and and so much of that and the cast at that point on the on tour the cast is such a family I'm sure they told you that because they're always together. Yeah. Um, so when you know I would get to I remember Phoenix and you know we would all go out we went we all went hiking in the desert and you know they're there they they don't have other friends so they hang out with each other. Yeah. Um, so I kind of rejoined this little family that kept evolving but then once I it it didn't there weren't a lot of changes once the first round of departures happened.

Right. Interesting um and then what about um, uh, later in your career did was there ever the possibility for you to revisit into the woods did you ever want to, uh, do Merrill or you know I mean I know you've mostly worked not in musicals but you did direct the tours of Jacqueline Hyde and, uh, Copacabana the previous Barry Manilan musical, um, uh, Jacqueline Hyde pardon me and I did harmony I did harmony oh at the at the um at the old globe was it La Jolla it was at La Jolla but I also did I did it at and then I did the Broadway production that shut down because it didn't have funding. That wasn't it was not fully with Brian Darcy James. Wow. I had I had a decades-long connection with that show.

That was a show that as much as I loved it, when what the time came to just say no more. I can't, I can't, I can't. And I love it, and I'm so glad it made it to it found its way to Broadway. But no, I yeah, so yes, I did, uh, I would say that I always dreamed of doing Merrily because I feel I felt like James did such a great job with it. I never thought I would ever want to do Into the Woods because I don't think I could get out from under, uh, James Lapine's vision of it. It was really it was it it was always fascinating seeing other productions, you know. He did he when he did the revival, he changed stuff, but it was still very much his sensibility. Yeah. Um, but I no, I never wanted to do into the woods.

Um, I I just don't think I could have it it would have been impossible to not hear. I can't I it's hard for me to not hear, you know, Chip and Joanna. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, as as much as that I think that that um American Playhouse broadcast is such a gift to the generations, um, it is so strange because anytime I see Into the Woods, it's not like a normal Broadway show that you're a fan of where you're comparing the people's vocal performances to the cast recording. I remember every one of Joanna's line readings and no baker's wife, however wonderful, will ever be able to get out from under that in my ear, you know. No, I mean I think what you see it well, I I would say with another with a d with another director who did hasn't studied that production.

Yes. Uh, and you know and a great actor it does happen and another kind of magic does happen. Yes. Yes. But for certainly for me who has you know just it it's it's so imprinted that show is in print that James's version of it having sat through it so many times heard it so many times watched it, you know I knowing the staging inside out I could never have done. No. [1:05:23] Uh, is Merrily the number one Sondheim show you would want to do? Well, I feel like I guess some maybe finally now has a giant commercial hit production so not for a while. But yeah that was that was that was the show I always wanted to do. Yeah because I I'm I'm I'm glad it's a big hit on Broadway now because it should be truly um and then just another question as for you someone who who did imprint upon you the original Into the Woods when you watched that uh video production that James Lapine directed of the original production what do you think we miss as as audiences who didn't get to see that production live and who've only experienced it on video what is it that is not uh transmitted I mean I don't think anything isn't transmitted I think it's just something is different when you're in a room with it.

Yeah um and particularly into the woods because you know I'm sure James talked to you about Bruno Betelheim and how inspired he was by that book. Um, and there's a and and so I, you know, as his acolyte and mentor, I studied the book too. And there's uh there's something, there's a line in that book that The Uses of Enchantment, um, that has stayed with me forever, which is the reason uh people tell fairy tales and stories in general, but particularly fairy tales, is because they are good to think with, they help you understand. And so knowing that about the show, I've always felt I've always found it so moving to be in a room with a bunch of people, uh, because that's what storytelling started out as, and that's what fairy tales are.

They're things that they were orally transmitted. Um, so just being with people and watching them feel feeling with them what it feels like to be told those stories, uh, again in that way. You can't you that I yeah, I didn't I didn't get that even in the movie, which is a it's I think it's a great movie, and it's a great movie musical. But there was something about James Lapine's production um that I don't know if anything will ever be quite as good for me. Wow, well, that's a wonderful place to end. I mean, like I could just take up hours more of your time. Good thing you didn't do it on Broadway, or I would never want to get off the phone with you. Um, but you go go after that RJ Cutler. I will change him down.

I will chase him down. Um, but I'm so grateful to you. This has been really, really terrific, and I know the P the listeners are gonna love it so much. So, uh, much gratitude. Thank you for listening to Giants in the Sky, how Sondheim and LePine went into the woods on the Broadway Podcast Network. Look out for episode 48 with Gene Luisa Kelly, the original Snow White.