This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Ben Rimalower: Broadway Podcast Network presents Giants in the Sky: How Sondheim and Lapine Went Into the Woods.

[0:07] Ben Rimalower: With me, Ben Rimalower.

[0:09] Ben Rimalower: Today's guest, RJ Cutler, assistant to the director on Broadway and in the final workshop.

[0:15] Ben Rimalower: Once upon a time.

[0:20] Ben Rimalower: RJ Cutler worked as assistant director to James Lapine on Into the Woods on Broadway and in its final workshop.

[0:27] Ben Rimalower: Other theater work early in his career included directing shows at Playwrights Horizons and the New York Theater Workshop, as well as early incarnations of Marsha Norman and Lucy Simon's The Secret Garden and Jonathan Larson's Superbia.

[0:40] Ben Rimalower: He then went on to a major career as a documentary filmmaker, producing the Oscar-nominated The War Room, the Emmy-nominated A Perfect Candidate, the Sundance Award-winning The September Issue, and the Peabody Award-winning Listen to Me Marlin, The World According to Dick Cheney, and Thin.

[0:58] Ben Rimalower: On television, he created such landmark programs as the Emmy-winning American High, Freshman Diaries, and Thirty Days, as well as conceiving and directing the scripted series Nashville.

[1:10] Ben Rimalower: He also directed the feature film If I Stay and created, wrote, directed, and produced the Webby Award-winning podcast, The Oval Office Tapes.

[1:19] Ben Rimalower: Cutler's most recent work includes Belushi, Billie Eilish, The World's A Little Blurry, and the Apple Plus series Deer, which has profiled icons such as Spike Lee, Gloria Steinem, Misty Copeland, Stevie Wonder, and Viola Davis.

[1:39] Ben Rimalower: I'm a big fan of all the work you've done since Into the Woods.

[1:43] Ben Rimalower: So I know how busy you are, and I'm extremely grateful that you would chat with me.

[1:48] Ben Rimalower: Um and uh, well, I appreciate that it was so long ago, and I'm sure your uh memories are hazy.

[1:55] Ben Rimalower: I think the fact that you were um well, you're younger now than the people that were the you know, quote unquote grown-ups on the show at the time.

[2:05] Ben Rimalower: And you were certainly young, and it was, you know, I would imagine somewhat of a formative experience.

[2:10] Ben Rimalower: So I'm very curious to get, you know, the impressions that stayed with you and the memories over the years.

[2:16] RJ Cutler: Um I mean, it was as formative an experience as any uh I've had, and and indirectly, if uh it led to the career I have as a documentary filmmaker because uh Wendy Ettinger, who is the sister of of um Rocco of uh Heidi Ettinger, who was one of the producers, and her then husband Rocco Landisman, who's another one of the producers and one of the theater owners uh um and partner in the Dodgers who managed uh uh the production.

[2:52] RJ Cutler: Um Wendy was my producing partner on on into um on uh The War Room, which was the first film that uh uh I ever produced, and and she was the person who I reached out to when I thought you know there was a uh documentary to be made about Bill Clinton's 1992 presidential campaign, and she and and I I wouldn't have known her had uh had I not had a friendship forged through Into the Woods with uh with Heidi and Rocco.

[3:23] RJ Cutler: So there you go.

[3:24] RJ Cutler: Well, what Academy Awards later, and then it all started with Into the Woods.

[3:29] Ben Rimalower: Um tell me, going back before uh you were working on Into the Woods, were you like a a Sondheim nerd already?

[3:39] Ben Rimalower: What was your background when this came into your life?

[3:43] RJ Cutler: You know, it's funny, I was a I was a theater kid who uh had graduated from Harvard a few years earlier and um or maybe a couple of years earlier and was working at the American Repertory Theater in in Cambridge, Bob Brewstein's theater at the time.

[3:59] RJ Cutler: And Bob was a mentor of mine, and uh, and you know, for us Broadway was uh was was the the you know the the devil in a way and not I don't want to overstate it, but Broadway was the the commercial theater was the enemy.

[4:15] RJ Cutler: We were we we uh worshipped at the altar of the the American regional theater and and uh uh the not-for-profit theater and uh uh uh uh commerce was the the last thing we were taught to to care about.

[4:32] RJ Cutler: Um in fact, uh uh Bob uh had had rules about you know allowing the New York Times to even come and see productions at the American Repertory Theater, and uh um, but he also was the mentor to uh Rocco Landisman uh and and uh Heidi Ettinger and uh who he had um I think he uh yeah Heidi had been at Yale as a as a uh design student and uh um and Rocco uh had been at Yale at a as a dramaturgy student and and Bob was very important in in their lives as well, and and they were producing Into the Woods on Broadway and knew that James Lapine, the um the director of Into the Woods, needed an assistant, and they reached out to Bob to see if he knew any any bright young uh aspiring directors who might be interested, and he recommended me.

[5:34] RJ Cutler: And uh, and I had been, uh, in spite of my uh my snobbery born of my relationship with Bob Brewstein.

[5:43] RJ Cutler: Uh I had been a fan of the musical theater and and and as uh as a high school student and in my non-Harvard kind of uh heart um or my non-ART heart, uh the musical theater was incredibly important to me.

[6:00] RJ Cutler: And I had directed musicals in high school and uh um and and one of the people who worked at the community theater where I did my high school shows was a man named Michael Starabin.

[6:13] RJ Cutler: Wow.

[6:13] RJ Cutler: And Mike, yeah, and Michael was one of the older guys who was a and it was a music theater uh uh genius, and and he would play in the orchestra.

[6:24] RJ Cutler: I directed the three penny opera when I was in high school, and Michael Starabin was in the orchestra, and so too was Phil Granger, who you would know as the flugelhorn player in the in the orchestra of uh Sunday in the Park with George, because Phil and Michael were like were besties, and Michael would go on to become the other orchestrator, the non-John Tunic orchestrator of Stephen Sondheim's work.

[6:52] RJ Cutler: Um and and and and so and Michael also was the music director who worked very closely with uh a young, brilliant composer lyricist named William Finn.

[7:09] RJ Cutler: And one night Michael told said, Come to New York.

[7:13] RJ Cutler: I was a junior in high school.

[7:15] RJ Cutler: He said, Come to the city.

[7:16] RJ Cutler: There's a 10 o'clock performance of a musical called uh In Trousers by this guy I've been working with.

[7:25] RJ Cutler: And I went, we with my friends and I, we went into the city.

[7:28] RJ Cutler: We went to Playwright's Horizons on 42nd Street, and the you know, before the transformation, long before the transformation, and the in the old theater upstairs, even before the old theater was renovated.

[7:40] RJ Cutler: And we climbed the stairs and we went, we saw In Trousers starring Chip Zien and uh uh and Mary Testa and Alison Fraser, and I remember it like it was yesterday.

[7:54] RJ Cutler: I mean, it was a life-changing experience.

[7:56] Ben Rimalower: Well, Michael Starabin then went on with William Finn uh and James Lapine to do uh uh March of the Falsettos, which was um uh, you know, a revelation in the music theater world, and uh and and a Frank Rich uh uh hit, you know, like a hit like I don't think any of us had ever Frank was you know stretching his uh uh what would you say?

[8:27] Ben Rimalower: Uh flexing his muscles to make that to recognize the genius of of uh of uh March of the Falsettos, uh which was the in a way the uh um a sequel to in in trousers, you know, it was it was the uh same same characters and you know um anyway.

[8:46] RJ Cutler: I took an interest uh in the work of James Lapine as a result of that, and I remembered him as well as the writer and director of um a play my parents had brought me to see, which was called Table Settings.

[9:02] RJ Cutler: When I had seen that maybe I was in ninth or tenth grade, and you, you know, it was of the Jewish family sitting around the dinner table being being Jews, and it was hilarious, and it was our family.

[9:02] RJ Cutler: You know, it was everyone's family.

[9:15] RJ Cutler: I mean, James captured something incredible then.

[9:18] RJ Cutler: And so I was really intrigued, intrigued enough to ignore my, you know, my snobbery, uh, and and uh and go to New York and take the meeting with James Lapine uh and and Heidi Landisman to be James's assistant.

[9:36] RJ Cutler: And uh, and you know, I guess the meeting went well because he offered me the job and and uh that's how I got involved.

[9:42] Ben Rimalower: So this was they had just uh done the show at the Old Globe in San Diego.

[9:48] RJ Cutler: That's right.

[9:49] RJ Cutler: And they were getting ready for Broadway.

[9:50] Ben Rimalower: Do you remember like what for a workshop?

[9:53] RJ Cutler: It was an August, it was an August workshop that in which uh Betty Buckley's was starring as the witch.

[9:59] RJ Cutler: Um most of the rest of the cast was as was uh assembled, as I recall, and uh and their Betty and her dog were were a uh a presence.

[10:11] RJ Cutler: I I was in charge of walking the dog frequently.

[10:14] RJ Cutler: Um and uh and we did this, we did it maybe it was a two-week workshop, two, three-week workshop, uh that was that um at the end of which the opening on Broadway was kind of confirmed.

[10:29] RJ Cutler: Um, although everybody knew that that was coming.

[10:33] Ben Rimalower: So I'm so curious about this work.

[10:35] Ben Rimalower: It was like a backers audition because the w you know, workshops in those days were different, different union rules, and they were a little a lot more loosey-goosey, but it was we were down on, you know, a Michael Bennett's studio, um uh down on Broadway and um on Lower Broadway and you know, I had never I mean I worked in the theater and I had done a lot with with b with Bob and I had worked at the ART for a couple of years and um but uh but there we were on Broadway.

[11:03] RJ Cutler: It was a whole other thing.

[11:05] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[11:06] Ben Rimalower: So I mean I've I've heard different things about this workshop and of course, you know, there's nothing about it um anywhere online, which is part of the reason that I'm doing this podcast is because the story of this landmark musical is somewhat lost to the ages.

[11:22] Ben Rimalower: Um but so I understand that as you said, it was a couple of weeks in August.

[11:28] Ben Rimalower: And I mean Broadway previews started in September, so that was real close.

[11:33] RJ Cutler: Oh then maybe it w was it in August then?

[11:35] RJ Cutler: Maybe it was in July.

[11:36] RJ Cutler: But I mean it was Yeah, yeah.

[11:38] RJ Cutler: It was there was about six weeks of uh uh Broadway Broadway preview started in September.

[11:46] RJ Cutler: That's right, because the the invited dress was on my birthday, which was September twenty-eighth.

[11:51] RJ Cutler: So there you go.

[11:52] RJ Cutler: Uh I I rem I yeah, I do I do remember that.

[11:55] RJ Cutler: And so yeah, maybe we started rehearsing mid-August, so maybe the workshop was the the June, early July, and there were a few weeks off.

[12:05] RJ Cutler: That's right.

[12:07] RJ Cutler: And during that period, one day James Cole and said that Bernadette had uh uh something had changed in her schedule, or maybe something had changed with Betty.

[12:17] RJ Cutler: We she we knew that we knew that Bernadette became available in a way that she had uh roses were being sent as my record lots and lots of roses were being sent to Bernadette.

[12:29] RJ Cutler: Um and uh this is amazing.

[12:31] RJ Cutler: You've already unlocked the door for me.

[12:34] Ben Rimalower: Because, you know, one of the great things that I've wondered about from uh for the from the beginning of this is how is it that um the Sondheim Lapine collaboration on the heels of the Pulitzer Prize winning success of Sunday in the Park with George, a personal triumph for Bernadette Peters in that role that you know she's still iconic in all these years later.

[12:58] Ben Rimalower: And through three years of readings and workshops and a production at the Old Globe, weeks before Broadway Previews, they were in a workshop with Betty Buckley's.

[13:11] RJ Cutler: How is it that Bernadette was such a last-minute thing? And for you to say that something changed in her schedule where she became available, that's my memory is that her that she became available, and also my memory, not too specific, was that everything wasn't smooth sailing with Betty. Um my memory of it was that there was a certain amount of conflict and frustration, but it's hard. I wish I had a story to tell. Um she was very nice to me, you know, but I was walking the dog. So um, but I it was like it it it it it wasn't all everything changed when suddenly Bernadette was available and and the certainty, I mean the certainty of it, and it's and of I mean look, they had just they've just had this incredible triumph with Sunday, and um so why wouldn't it have have um why wouldn't everybody have you know taken a huge sigh of relief but more than that incredible excitement I mean James was I didn't know him well at the time but he was uh you know it he was probably as excited as any single you know moment work related in his life I mean it was a uh it was it was a big deal and and I remember telling me he was sending you know three dozen roses to Bernadette there were they I obviously negotiation had to happen and everything like that but once they knew and and there you go I mean so aside from even the Betty aspect of it like with Bernadette um because there had been people talking about um some people had floated the idea that she had been um obviously considered and even talked about how she had come to see the show not only to this workshop in the summer but even in San Diego um and that there on one hand people were saying that she would never um do this part because it was too small and then other people said no that the intention aside from casting just dramaturgically was always to make it uh to beef up the role more do well the the the song the songs to come yeah listen the the the bar had been set as we know about the songs to come.

[15:46] RJ Cutler: Um, I'm working now with James. I'm making a film, an adaptation of his uh of a documentary based on his oral history of the making of Sunday in the Park. Oh, incredible. So yeah, yeah, we're and and using all the all the uh tapes that of the interviews that he did for the oral history. So it's very, very exciting, and we're um it's uh it's unannounced, but it's it's it's happening. Um and and uh uh you know, listen, that's so the the legend had been established. I mean, Steve showing up twice, not first in the workshop for Act One, and then in the in the on during previews for for the the final songs in Act Two Um that he delivered, that was always kind of woven in. Steve's still writing, Steve's still writing, Steve's gonna, and and the last midnight was the right was the final song that came and and waiting for the last midnight was you know, and the expectation was that these songs were going to be as show changing as um as they were in Sunday.

Um so and and that they were going to add to um to Bernadette's character and to, you know, so so there was that. I I would my recollection is that yes, dramaturgically it was always anticipated that the role would beef up, and certainly when when uh uh Bernadette took it, and it but by the way, this may have been part of the conflict with Betty. She may have been uh uh, you know, she may, I don't know, I don't again, I don't remember uh enough to remember was she complaining about the size of the role. But um the other thing about Bernadette that I remember is that though the role was small, uh you know, James would say to me, just wait, just wait until the audience comes. Just wait and see what happens.

And I was like, what? He said, you'll see. And um and first preview, it was like it took over, she took over the show. And the and the songs weren't the new song wasn't in at that point. Yeah. Um and and it just was this the the way she I mean she grew 10 feet. It was I I had never seen anything like it. It's it's it's theater theater star magic. Yeah. And uh she was she was larger than life and the audience response was was uh um uh you know uh I I I don't want to say it was deafening that would overstate it but it was the uh it was like a roar of of laughter when when she came out and you know and the transformation at the end of act one right or whatever the second midnight uh I think the transformation uh no it's a third midnight transformation she comes out and she's young again I mean you I had never experienced something like it and certainly never experienced it in the workshop or in the in the rehearsal room or obviously during uh uh tech rehearsals but when there was an audience it uh she grew the part just by virtue of being Bernadette it's interesting I mean I there's a um YouTube video of like an invited um uh rehearsal for the press still still at 890 Broadway.

And um it's and watching Bernadette do uh like the Greens rap in that sequence. Um having been so familiar with her performance on the broadcast video and on the cast recording, where she's so hilarious, and it's much less funny in this. And it was interesting to think that was something that, and I think partly from the audience itself, as you describe, and certainly I would imagine in rehearsal too. Um, but because I've often she was working, she was working, you know. She was she was making it, she was making it and she knew, and she had a director who knew a director who trusted her, and uh I the reason James would say something to me is because I would I probably was asking, yeah, you know, is that is that the is that what we're is that where this is this the performance?

Yeah, and I but I remember um more than one conversation where he was like just wait, just wait. It always happens, it happens it happens when it happens, which is of course a great, great lesson for me.

[20:24] RJ Cutler: I'm curious about how the intentions for the role shifted. I mean, I have not succeeded in getting Betty to talk to me for this podcast yet, but she did um an extensive interview for Eddie Shapiro's book, Nothing Like a Dame, where she talked about this experience. Obviously, her performance. Well, but she said what she said what she's saying, you know, and how she chooses to portray it or whatever. But she uh talked only of artistic differences. I mean, she talked about how much she respected Lapine and what great friends they are and to this. Oh, yeah, and he and you know, the more legend, but he's uh as the story goes, right? He was a huge help to her with her character and cast. Yes, exactly.

Which was a great friend to her. Yeah, yeah. But um, but she talks in that book about um essentially saying that they saw the role in different ways and that the ultimate with some satisfaction, I imagine, on her part, as she describes it, the way the role ultimately was came home to what Betty had conceived. And she talks about Lapine seeing the um witch Rapunzel relationship as a lesbian relationship, and she thought it was an abusive mother. And um at first I thought when I read that book, she's either she misunderstood what James Lapine said, or he meant it in some sort of um, you know, uh allegorical way or something. Uh, but then uh watching the like bootleg videos from the old Globe production with Ellen Foley, it did seem more like that.

And of course I realized that the witch is not Rapunzel's mother, it's actually could be conceived, you know, considered like her ward, like Sweeney Todd, like with the judge with Joanna. And so I started to think, oh, maybe Betty was actually describing what Lapine had in mind at that time, and it had shifted. Do you remember anything along those lines being in the discussion?

[22:19] RJ Cutler: I unfortunately I don't, I don't. I'm sure James will speak can speak to it. I have no uh He was very tight-lipped about Betty. I don't know if he was being diplomatic or but I didn't get much from him on that. I'm sure he was listening I'm sure it was a difficult it was it couldn't have been an easy transition. It wasn't, you know, um it it it uh as I say there was absolute certainty that my recollection is that there was absolute certainty that this was that this was uh uh the right thing to do and an opportunity that couldn't be passed, and that it was best for everything, best for the show, and of course that turned out to be the case. Um, and those those changes are always difficult in any, you know.

Uh of course I'm interested but I don't remember I don't remember the dramaturgy of the of of the witch's character um in the context you're talking about or even just broadly speaking I mean we talked about the comedy that Bernadette seems to have developed in rehearsal and then of course in front of the audience do you when you would have those conversations with Lapine was the intention for there to be a lot of comedy in that character and it just you know it's it's it's more than the comedy it's the it's the connection it's that the on some level she's the you know there look you're relating to everybody in that show you're you're the Cinderella in us all is relating to Kim and the the Jack and us all and or the Jack's mother are are are relating you know to to uh uh Brynn what was her uh um Barbara Jack's mother Barbara Brynn Bless her and and to Ben and and you know the the and you're relating to the to Chip and Joanna you're you're entering through them all but somehow it was Bernadette who kind of became a in a way a conduit it was it was a connection to the audience that meant laughter but it also meant pathos in this in the second act so it it's it's and when the song came in uh in spite of the fact that it was I I you know I don't believe it was it compared to the impact that the songs in in Sunday had when they came in. Um, you know it sh it she made it, she she made it certainly as great and impactful as it could possibly be. And that's what happened.

[24:45] RJ Cutler: So it wasn't just that the comedy was being developed, it was all of it. It was it was uh it was all of that star power that um, you know, the the that uh uh was forming. Um okay, and I want to ask you so many things about all the changes to the show and everything. But but so forgive me if I'm belaboring the this one casting. We can talk about all of it. I think to the extent that I remember it, I'm happy to talk about that. Thank you. I very much appreciate that. Um so okay, like because this is an area where there's been a lot of different things that have been said to me, ranging from another thing Betty said in that Eddie Shapiro book is that um negotiations broke down and uh for her to do the show on Broadway, and that it she was then sort of shunned in the business afterward for not having taken the last best offer, like that she thought she was too good for what they were asking her to do, and that you know, that was high and mighty of her or whatever.

Um the opposite uh people have claimed absolutely not. Betty was fired and her contract was terminated. Um and I do know that just to ring a bell for you, I don't know if this is in your current memory, but something I learned doing this was that um for Broadway, this is as an aside, Burke Moses had been cast as Rapunzel's Prince. Um and then when Bob Westenberg was busy with matinees and stuff of the production of The Crucible, I think he was doing in DC, they said for the workshop, uh Burke would play The Wolf and Cinderella's Prince and his understudy Jeff Blumencrounds would be Rapunzel's Prince.

[26:23] RJ Cutler: And then they were so unhappy with Burke that they fired him, and he was paid off his Broadway contract, as he told me.

[26:32] RJ Cutler: And then Chuck Wagner, who had done Rapunzel's Prince at the Old Globe, was cast for Broadway. But so, you know, according to the people that claim Betty was fired, presumably that was the case. And then, I mean, as a matter of fact, one person even claimed that cast member that Bernadette was not at the first Broadway rehearsal, that Betty started Broadway rehearsals, was fired, and then Bernadette came in. And I kept saying, maybe you think that because it was the same studio at 890 Broadway, maybe it had the same tape on the floor, maybe it's hard to remember. You were already in costume fittings during the workshop, so maybe it seems in your memory. Like he said, no, no, absolutely not. Bernadette didn't start rehearsals.

And of course, it was 1987. Nowadays, playbill.com, everybody would have been announced, you know, before it all went down. But so do you have a memory of the timing, for example, of when my memory is that it happened between the workshop and the rehearsals? That I, you know, if you told me it didn't, I wouldn't fight with you because it's like it's a long time ago. Yeah. But my memory of what happened now almost 40 years ago is that that between the workshop and the start of rehearsals for the Broadway production, the change was made and flowers were sent. Those are the things I remember. And I remember James being very excited about it, the Dodgers being very sure about it. Understand I mean, in addition to the triumph in Sunday in the Park the season before Into the Woods, Bernadette had won the Tony in Song and Dance.

I mean, they're you know, and couldn't and on, and on and on. So, you know, and then a lot of people have talked about how they were given it was two separate contracts, but they were given them at the same time for the workshop and for the Broadway production, which kind of seems to like support the Betty, you know, negotiation breaking down that other people count contradict. Was there any it's is it possible in your mind that Betty's telling the truth and that negotiation? Oh, I don't know. I really I can't I I don't have any any opinion got whatsoever. I'm sorry, I don't know, please. I you're reminding me, you're reminding me that when it came time to figure out what they were gonna pay me.

Michael David sat me down, he was like, no, this isn't the subsidized regional theater. We're not gonna be able to afford the kind of money you were making. You know, I was probably making $300 a week, you know, at the rich for the area. Yeah, I mean, you know, we're just trying to put on a show here. I do remember that. Oh, right. But I don't remember, I don't remember anybody else's I I don't remember anything about about other than what I've told you about the change. And then branching off from that change into the actual substantive changes to the show. One thing that I've heard from a lot of people. Oh, sorry, one more question about the transition. Several people have mentioned in between the workshop and the first Broadway rehearsal, that there was a reading one afternoon at a townhouse, where it was the entire cast, including Bernadette, which was where many cast members found out.

Danielle Furland said that was when she found out Bernadette was the witch. She came to this meeting in a townhouse. Betty wasn't there, Bernadette was there. Paul Ford has talked about this townhouse reading. Does that ring a bell at all? Yeah, maybe. Maybe. Maybe in Rocco and Rocco made a little speech beforehand where he talked where he talked about his as I'm remembering that he Rocco made a speech welcoming everybody. Maybe it was a backers audition or something. And it's funny, you know, it's nothing I've thought about in 40 years, but yeah, yeah, he made a speech about what it was like growing up in St. Louis's lover in the theater and what this production meant to him. And you know, that's what my memory of that of that day that's coming back is.

And then also about the presentations in that workshop. I've heard different things. There was three different performances of the workshop, or two. There was different endings where the baker's wife died or didn't die, how she died. Maybe, yeah. That all rings true. Yeah, that's as much as I can give you. But that all rings true. There were lots of changes, there were changes every night. James would come come in every day with pages that needed to be typed that I that and that was you know one of my jobs. He, you know, his day was halfway done when rehearsal would end because he wasn't just the director, he was, you know, he was the writer as well, and then he was staging scenes, but so much of the workshop was about the script work, yeah.

And and and exploring different changes, but I can't, I I don't I don't remember the various permutations. And I mean, so talk to me about the process of you working with James like you described so would he give you handwritten script pages and you would type those is that what you're saying? Yeah, that's my yes that is my memory and and we I would type them there you know there was a early Apple you know an early Macintosh somewhere and a and a and a dot matrix and the pages would come out and right and was it Frank Hartenstein was the stage manager right Frank Joe Joe Joe um uh Johnna Murray right yes yes I mean these were you know I was a kid I was a kid these guys were the were the pros and um so you know it I I'd be sure it was no different than than uh anybody else in in in as a as an assistant I was I was typing up the pages distributing them you know my favorite James knows that I've I I reference this a lot and have over the years the fact that um one of the great lessons he taught me was that um if he needed something done he would say you know go down to the go down to the wig shop and tell them I just I'm I'm meet upstairs yelling and I'm throwing things around because I need the wigs you know and and uh you don't tell them I'm I'm not not you know just tell them I am and and I'd go down and say James is freaking out he's freaking out and I was like that's so smart because he doesn't waste any extra, you know, he doesn't have to freak out. All he has to do is tell me to tell people that that he is freaking out, and so I I will I will employ that trick. It's a good one.

[33:29] RJ Cutler: Um so one another thing that Betty supposedly complained about, and that was the song Boom Crunch that came or last midnight came in, which I understand happened during previews, and um other people have described Bernadette struggling with Boom Crunch also. Um, and that there was like was there a sense that Boom Crunch had to go? Did you think that you know from the beginning was that what they were talking about? That that was a problem that song. My big memory is is that was just again waiting, waiting for is the song in today, is the song in today. And I think it literally came at the last given the rehearsal schedule during previews and when the critics were coming, it came the last second.

Um and uh but I don't I don't remember debate over a boom crunch or or yeah, don't because like in the in the wonderful putting it together um Le Pine book on Sunday the Park with George talking about the songs you referenced move on and lesson number eight, I think children and art maybe also that there was blank, you know, that there was just like a song comes here. Yes, that's right. But right, but we didn't have that option, or if we had the option, that's not what that's right. The songs replaced other songs, yeah. Or the song replaced another song, right? Um and then uh the other thing that um I guess is sort of legendary at this point is the song Second Midnight that you know I had that bonus track on the reissued CD for years and just ignored it because I thought it was just gonna be the little what you know the platitudes, you know, for 90 seconds, but you know, apparently is this eight-minute um elaborate, like full company musical number that was only in for one performance.

Do you remember anything about that? Nope, nope. And I don't I have to send you that track. But I will tell you that the original preview with the uh the night, you know, the invited dress was about three and a half hours long. Wow. Things were yeah, it was it was well over three hours. And there were issues with, you know, how long are we gonna keep the theater open? And you know, the producers were like, we gotta get out of there by the show didn't end until you know, I believe we were in overtime almost certainly through all through the preview period period, but maybe even afterwards. And then there were issues with the giant's head, and there were previews where you know performances had to be stopped.

There was once and and James would go out and you know make make curtain speeches while we figured out the techno uh, you know, the technology and um and and once it happened on a day when he wasn't there and and I was like I I can't remember. He had said to me, if it happens, if it happens on Sunday, I won't be there. You go out, make a speech, just tell everybody you say my name is RJ and I'm from Great Neck, and you'll be fine. And uh so I went out and I said my name is RJ and I'm from Great Neck. Um everyone. Um, so uh there you go. But um, but I don't I don't remember uh that number, but again, you know, the the the rehearsal process and the preview process was um it w it was uh uh uh culturally understood that Steve was going to write through this period and James was going to write through this period around what Steve wrote.

And that's what previews were going to be like because they had been through it. They had been through it and it had worked, so there was a lot of faith. There was also a lot of pressure. There was also an enormous amount of expectation. And when the day came and passed and the song or songs hadn't come in, the pressure was was growing, and it was Dave and we there we were waiting. Um but I but that's that's you know, I was one of the waiting, so I can't tell you more than what it was like to be waiting.

[37:47] RJ Cutler: And um, I mean, when you talk about like certainly I imagine one of the many boons of having Bernadette leading the company is her having successfully had this, you know, seemingly harmonious collaboration with Sondheim and Le Pine just on their previous show, is a rock of um if anyone's going to have been there done that and you know exude good vibes, it would be Bernadette Peters in that situation that could otherwise be hairy and you know um tense backstage. What what about like on the other side, like where was there a lot of productoral confidence and support? What was the temperature? I mean, I don't think I think everybody it was it's listen, it's a Broadway musical and it's an it's an original Broadway musical, and you know, it's just nobody nobody everyone is subject to the the potential of of a flop, you know, of a of a failure.

Every you know, and everybody's so the I don't want to the environment was um was was tense but everybody was working there was certainly a lot of love James was particularly good at kind of keeping the company and it's funny because of course the you know there was legend as James describes in his own book about Sunday you know there was a lot of conflict with the cast and there were that didn't exist there was tension between them I mean Chip and Joanna you know you don't want to stand at any point between the two of them because they would they would could be fighting at any moment about things they were like a married couple but and they were performing at the absolute peak of their of their collective powers and they were crushing it constantly crushing it and they loved each other but there was you know they they're there it was intense it was all intense and certainly uh the producers wanted a shorter show they wanted a second act that was the you know the something different you know um there you know they can they have to speak for themselves but you know they did you it was not um a mystery that the that the producers felt the third had questions about the second act um and and was it too long and was it too dark and was it too you know and and as I said before Rocco's would not just a a producer of legend he was he was a dramaturge of uh you know of strong opinions so you know you would and and all those guys were they were used to being you know they were smart and all that but James had his vision and he knew what he wanted and he knew what he was going for and and um and um and he was the writer and this is the theater you know and so he was in charge um it was it was not an uh uh you know they they opinions were expressed but he made the decisions um and as I say the I remember a lot you know uh the those days were long they were so long and then you'd start up again you know you'd get a few hours sleep and you'd start up again the next day and uh in the preview period maybe it was four or six weeks but it was very it was very intense um and and there was not a lot of certainty but there was a look there was so much greatness all the time and there was the first act which worked and which you know and and and wasn't waiting for songs and there were these incredible I mean you know we got to see Kim Crosby every night singing you know the the what what's on the steps of the palace on the steps of the palace or Ben singing giants in the sky come on you know and Danny was incredible everybody was great and there was Bernadette and Chipotle I mean on and on I mean and then and the princes you know who were hilarious and and and so it wasn't like people are like oh no this show won't work there was no question about that it was like but they you know they were all chasing as always uh uh greatness um and and so that's where the the the the tension was um and audiences you you know you knew the audience loved it but you also knew that you know when it was long before it came down in time that it was that that they would grow tired as the night grew on um in the during the preview period so I mean for a lot of the like younger fans today it may be surprising that the show actually got somewhat mixed reviews particularly from Frank Rich even though he'd been such a it was a disappointment it was a disappointment yeah what what do you remember the sort of um company or not so much with the cast necessarily but the producers ad meetings were you privy to those kind of conversations with James about moving forward past that no I I I mean I stayed uh uh I'd go a lot and um uh but it wasn't I wasn't working after uh the show opened um uh and um I'm trying to rem you know the Frank's listen it the this was a time when all that mattered was uh Frank Rich review and there and there there hadn't been examples you know the way that um there have been examples now right didn't wicked get bad reviews you know so there you go um and uh and there are a couple of other shows uh that that you know have have survived the new york times not loving it there wasn't a such no such thing in that era uh it was it was Frank was the you know he was the high executioner and if he if he gave you the thumbs up as he did with Sunday you know and not and and you know I think it was a second review, right, of his that really did it with Sunday.

[43:49] RJ Cutler: It wasn't, uh, um, but anyway, or he, somebody else had reviewed it and then he came in. Whatever happened, he, you know, he helped make that show. Um, and with Into the Woods, he did, they now, it was a mixed review. It had, it was full of his love. Yeah. Um, I remember John Simon being particularly cruel, but John Simon was always cruel. Right. Um, and, uh, um, so, uh, I, but you know, it's, it, God knows it survived it. I mean, that shows the, that's who hasn't experienced Into the Woods in their life multiple times. Um, uh, and who, and most people have been in it because it, that the school version of that show is like, it's a phenomenon. Yeah, and will probably always be so. And these, and you know, it was as you know, as recently as last year, you know, productions that really touch the heart, move the heart, and resonate with people, um, deeply.

[45:05] Ben Rimalower: So did you say that you were done working on it after opening night?

[45:08] RJ Cutler: That's my memory, is that I didn't, you know, I'd go by and I'd spend time and I'd say, and I, you know, I don't remember taking notes, for instance, after pre, after previously.

[45:18] Ben Rimalower: And so you weren't in the, went, my parents came.

[45:21] RJ Cutler: Yeah.

[45:22] Ben Rimalower: James bought them a pair of tickets.

[45:25] RJ Cutler: Um, and, uh, but I don't remember working after the, not with the guest, the replacement cast or the filming or anything like that. The filming, yes. I remember, uh, remember. I know I was there for the filming of, um, I, I was definitely there for the filming of, um, uh, Sunday in the Park because that was during this whole time that Sunday filmed, uh, uh, um, final performances. Um, and I'm, I, and I do remember being there for Into the Woods, but I, uh, uh, the, the taping of it, uh, because James directed, um, but I don't remember too many specifics about it. I mean, and one thing I'm, I want to get more from James on, but maybe you'll remember it's, it's interesting to me because he didn't direct the cameras for Sunday in the Park.

[46:17] Ben Rimalower: That's right.

[46:18] RJ Cutler: And, uh, certainly it seems part of the reason that Into the Woods is so perfectly preserved is because he directed it with such, uh, intelligence and specificity and knowledge, care, you know. Um, but do you remember?

[46:30] Ben Rimalower: Yeah?

[46:32] RJ Cutler: I did work, I remember working that week or because I, I came back to it. And, uh, and you had not yet started to become a filmmaker yourself at that point, right?

[46:43] Ben Rimalower: No, I was a young theater director. I've moved on to, uh, The Secret Garden, also produced by, uh, uh, Dodgers and, uh, and Heidi, it was really Heidi's show and, uh, designed by Heidi. And I was direct designed by Heidi and I directed. We were in s, we went to Saratoga and did a workshop, and then we down went down to Virginia and did a production and, and, and then Heidi took me out for, um, a champagne lunch, got me drunk as a skunk and told me she was replacing me with Susan Shulman. So that was my experience. But you know, what a, what a listen again you're talking about this I was twenty-five, twenty-six years old. I hadn't even, this was one of the very, that was, uh, this was my first New York experience and then Secret Garden was maybe my second or third so, um, it was, it was all pretty good.

[47:37] RJ Cutler: Uh, I'm, I was curious like in terms of like, uh, Lapine because then he went on to direct a couple of movies shortly after this and Impromptu was very shortly after this. I was wondering if it, if you remember if the, if there was any sort of calculus when he was, um, dur going to direct the filming of Into the Woods was this part of, uh, um, you know, I mean his career expansion aspiration.

[47:37] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I don't remember us talking about it much at all. I did work, we were working together, um, uh, Impromptu was filmed when, uh, Falsettoland was, uh, uh, running off Broadway so back to James and Bill Finn and I, uh, I maintained that show for him.

[47:37] RJ Cutler: Oh wonderful.

[47:37] Ben Rimalower: While he was in, uh, in France shooting, uh, Impromptu, but that's a whole other podcast, isn't it?

[47:37] RJ Cutler: Yes, yes it is.

[47:37] Ben Rimalower: The, is the Falsetto, the, the Falsetto trilogy and I, that's like, that's my life story from In Trousers through Falsettoland into Falsettos, all those things. Um, but, uh, but I don't, um, yeah, I don't, you know, storytelling, storytelling and you can imagine why James would have been attracted to filmmaking as, uh, narrative filmmaking as he still is, by the way, he's also a documentary filmmaker and has made a, uh, a couple of great films, and he and I are working together on a documentary that he's directing.

[49:09] RJ Cutler: So, uh, that's, that's just different than the, um, one I'm making about Sunday.

[49:14] Ben Rimalower: So, oh wow.

[49:15] RJ Cutler: Oh well, I'll be curious.

[49:16] Ben Rimalower: He's, he's in the, he's, he's, you know, he's an artist. He's, uh, he's expressing himself always and all ways.

[49:20] RJ Cutler: Always and all ways. Well, um, I am very much looking forward to your, uh, Sunday in the Park with George documentary. I, I think I, you know, certainly that book, Putting It Together was the inspiration for me to do this podcast, hungering for that kind of granular, um, oral history of, of Into the Woods. And, um, uh, I'm very excited to, to see that project and everything else you do, and so grateful to you for chatting with me about this.

[49:54] RJ Cutler: It's my great pleasure and thank you for, uh, inspiring, uh, me to have all these memories because it was a very, it was a, you know, a formative experience in all of our lives. And this is, by the way, one of the what I think is so moving about, uh, Putting It Together, about James's book of, uh, is that it's written from the perspective of, uh, uh, older people remembering a moment in their lives that was, uh, that was formative, but during which they had no idea it was so formative.

[50:28] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, you know, during they were taking it for granted every, they had no idea how what they were in the middle of, and now as they're remembering it, they realize of course they were in the middle of something so special.

[50:40] RJ Cutler: And for me, that's what Into the Woods, Into the Woods was, you know, you're talking, they're, you know, sitting around with James and Steve, and James's, uh, I mean in Steve's, uh, townhouse, you're, you're experiencing it all, uh, in the moment, you know. Mike, my, the friendship that Steve showed to me for, for years, uh, coming to see my shows, sending notes afterwards, you know, when, when he and John Wideman wrote, uh, Assassins and they needed to put it on their feet for a couple weeks workshop over at Playwrights Horizons, they asked me to do it, you know. They, it was very clear I was never, I wouldn't be asked to direct it, but there I got to direct the first, uh, you know, 70% of it for two weeks with this incredible cast, and you know, the, and, and there were so many things.

And for a kid who is, you know, 25 years old, not even, I was, you know, not even doing the thing that was gonna I would find as my life's calling, but, but something that was so formative and defined me in so many ways as an artist and a film and a storyteller and, uh, um, and a director and all those things, and a person. Uh, it was an amazing experience. So I'm grateful to you for asking questions about it.

[51:53] Ben Rimalower: It's, uh, you know, absolutely. I mean I really enjoyed it. Well, we should all take a lesson from that and live in our, um, our golden ages, our formative experiences in real time. Appreciate that.

[52:06] RJ Cutler: Yeah, exactly.

[52:08] Ben Rimalower: Well, thank you so much.

[52:08] RJ Cutler: And you are J.

[52:10] Ben Rimalower: Thank you so much. Thank you for listening to Giants in the Sky, how Sondheim and Lapine went Into the Woods on the Broadway Podcast Network. Look out for episode 50 with Bernadette Peters, the original witch.