This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Ben Rimalower: Broadway Podcast Network presents Giants in the Sky, How Sondheim and Lapine Went Into the Woods with me, Ben Rimalower.

[0:08] Marianne Cane: Today's guest, Marianne Cane, stage manager on Broadway.

[0:12] Marianne Cane: Once upon a time.

[0:18] Marianne Cane: I stage managed Into the Woods on Broadway, having previously worked as a stage manager on the final workshop.

[0:25] Marianne Cane: I also served under production stage manager Frank Hartenstein on Big River for most of its Broadway run.

[0:32] Marianne Cane: Additionally, I stage managed the original Manhattan Theater Club production of Donald Margulies's What's Wrong with This Picture featuring Madeline Kahn.

[0:46] Marianne Cane: I had been working for the Dodgers, the producers, the Dodgers, um, on Big River, and had been assisting Frank Hartenstein, who was the production stage manager.

[0:58] Marianne Cane: And, uh, they were producing this other show, and Frank, uh, asked if I wanted to go along with them, and I said, yes, please.

[1:07] Marianne Cane: So that was my first, uh, it was after the San Diego things had happened, but the first thing that I was involved with was the, um, workshop in New York.

[1:18] Ben Rimalower: I was hoping you were gonna say that. You know, I'm, uh, you said you'd listen to some other episodes. So maybe you know that I'm obsessed with that workshop.

[1:26] Ben Rimalower: Um, that mysterious workshop. Now I know Big River closed just like a month before Into the Woods opened.

[1:34] Ben Rimalower: Um, were you doing double duty at that time?

[1:37] Marianne Cane: No, I left, uh, I left Big River a few months before it closed to start rehearsals for Into the Woods.

[1:45] Marianne Cane: And also John A. Murray, who, um, had been with the show before, my husband at the time, Chris Fielder, had been her assistant at the Merrilly in, um, in La Jolla.

[1:57] Marianne Cane: So I knew her and, um, you know, admired her as well. So I was very happy to get a chance to work with her.

[2:05] Ben Rimalower: And did Frank leave Big River a few months early together with you?

[2:09] Marianne Cane: Yes.

[2:10] Marianne Cane: I followed him. So yes.

[2:11] Ben Rimalower: Got you. Um, okay, so Frank says to you the Dodgers are doing this Sondheim Lapine show Into the Woods. You've heard about it. Jana worked on it. They did it in San Diego. It's coming to Broadway. And the first thing we're gonna do is this workshop. Do you w what did you know about it at that time before starting that workshop? Do you remember?

[2:33] Marianne Cane: Well, I mean, the biggest thing, of course, was that it was the Sondheim show. Um, and I was, um, you know, I'd seen, um, Sunday in the Park, so I knew a little bit about their collaboration.

[2:48] Marianne Cane: Um, and I knew that Jana had worked with, uh, James, you know, for, um, a while, so she was friendly with him.

[2:57] Marianne Cane: Um, you know, I just kind of knew that it was, uh, about fairy tales and that it was Andrew a lot of things, and that was it.

[3:04] Marianne Cane: Yeah. I knew they had done it in San Diego, you know.

[3:09] Ben Rimalower: And, um, so my understanding of this workshop was that there was two weeks of rehearsals followed by the invited presentations. Is that right?

[3:22] Marianne Cane: Yes.

[3:23] Marianne Cane: And this is where it gets really hairy separating out people's memories of what went down. But in your memory, were there was there more than one, uh, sort of performance presentation of the workshop?

[3:39] Marianne Cane: I don't really recall. I mean, the my biggest, um, this is petty, but my biggest takeaway was being in a room with Betty Buckley's and having her sing and having it sound just like a trumpet.

[3:53] Marianne Cane: I mean, like this pure trumpet sound. Um, that that was, um, you know, I think my hair blew back, and, um, that was, uh, an amazing thing, uh, to me.

[4:05] Marianne Cane: And not necessarily, you know, the chemistry, but just gosh, that voice, uh, was really amazing. So I, you know, it's not brilliant, it's just what really tickled me.

[4:17] Ben Rimalower: No, no, you are getting to my sweet spot because this is part of the reason, maybe the main reason that I'm so obsessed with this workshop is that, um, Betty Buckley's is one of my all-time favorite singers.

[4:29] Ben Rimalower: And, um, one of my favorite things I ever heard Betty sing was "Children Will Listen" in, um, the Sondheim celebration at Carnegie Hall, where she just blasted the roof.

[4:40] Ben Rimalower: I mean, it, you know, I mean, trumpet is the right word because it's that kind of clarity and power, but it's just so beautiful and musical and, you know, um, and, uh, so it was so tantalizing to me to know that she had done these, uh, early iterations of Into the Woods, and you know, a role that I could very easily imagine her in and can fantasize about what she would have sounded like.

[5:07] Marianne Cane: And from the little, um, that she has spoken about the experience, I know that, you know, she was frustrated by the material that the witch at that time in the development had.

[5:21] Marianne Cane: She's talked about just really having the rap. Um, and I certainly know that "Children Will Listen" and "Last Midnight" were added, um, during, uh, Broadway, uh, previews, or maybe "Children Will Listen" was in the from the first you could probably tell me better than I know from the beginning of the Broadway process, but that I believe "Children Will Listen" was not in the, uh, workshop that Betty did.

[5:45] Marianne Cane: So the, sorry, go ahead.

[5:46] Ben Rimalower: "Children Will Listen" grew out of, um, uh, "Second Midnight," you know.

[5:54] Marianne Cane: They had those little interludes for Smith Con, yeah.

[5:57] Marianne Cane: "Midnight Congress." "Second Midnight," um, Steve kept working on it, and it was the most beautiful thing that I ever heard.

[6:09] Marianne Cane: And, um, it stopped the show dead. There wasn't any way to keep going after that.

[6:14] Marianne Cane: It was like so moving, and so they had to cut it in order to keep the show going, and then a lot of that was, uh, then salvaged and became, um, "Children Will Listen."

[6:29] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[6:30] Marianne Cane: Uh, at the end, uh, which was great, but it was so moving because every single character came through and had, you know, had a piece of it, and it just accumulated to this, uh, devastating and moving, um, meditation on parenthood and childhood and family and all of that.

[6:52] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Did you, I see, I've often wondered about this because I'm very, I there's the demo track of that, um, song recorded with people that weren't in the cast, and John Cameron Mitchell and Maureen Moore and, uh, George Lee Andrews, um, uh, that's on one of the, that's available in different CDs that were released, you know, of Into the Woods and Sondheim stuff.

[7:16] Ben Rimalower: But, um, but I'm obsessed with that track, and there's even on YouTube recording from a Broadway preview of the Broadway cast doing that elaborate "Second Midnight" song.

[7:27] Ben Rimalower: And so I, I wondered because it does seem like there are so many, uh, sort of ballads in a row at the end of the show, going from, uh, "No More" into "No One Is Alone" into "Children Will Listen." I wondered why there they didn't, you know.

[7:45] Ben Rimalower: I, I understand that they wanted probably to give Bernadette a solo because she's Bernadette, and the audience wants, you know, they've come to a Bernadette Peters musical, they demand, you know.

[7:58] Ben Rimalower: I know I feel that way as an audience member. Where are my Bernadette solos?

[8:02] Marianne Cane: Um, but I'm surprised that there wasn't any more of that element of "Second Midnight." Did you feel like there was something lost in the translation from "Second Midnight" to "Children Will Listen"?

[8:15] Marianne Cane: It, um, it's a one-person, uh, expression. It, it is the culmination of what the show has been, but the witch's, uh, experience in the show is different from Jack's mother's, you know, the experience that the character has.

[8:36] Marianne Cane: So whereas before it was a lot of little, you know, kind of jokes that then got really meaningful, um, in, you know, where it was in the show originally in "Second Midnight."

[8:51] Marianne Cane: So, um, that changed.

[8:54] Marianne Cane: But as I said, the show couldn't, we, you couldn't pick yourself up off the floor and keep going with the show after, you know, after that really moving experience.

[9:03] Marianne Cane: So, uh, you know, it, it certainly worked better in terms of the show. But I was blessed to hear them sing that.

[9:12] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, well, everyone should check out that track.

[9:14] Ben Rimalower: Um, but, uh, okay, so getting back to the workshop though, it, the Betty as the witch did not have "Last Midnight."

[9:22] Marianne Cane: Uh, pardon me, she did, well, she didn't have "Last Midnight," she had "Boom Crunch," and she certainly didn't have "Children Will Listen."

[9:27] Marianne Cane: Um, so, uh, I know, uh, when you talk about the trumpet voice, maybe you're talking about "Boom Crunch" or are you talking about "Stay With Me"? Was that, was "Stay With Me" in the show yet in that workshop?

[9:44] Marianne Cane: Yeah, I think it was. I think that it, uh, he did rewrites on it, um, but I, I think that it was there.

[9:50] Marianne Cane: They had that big, you know, the moment, uh, with her, the witch and her daughter.

[9:57] Marianne Cane: Because, and that was not in the show in San Diego.

[10:00] Marianne Cane: So I've often wondered if he wrote that for Betty Buckley's in that workshop process.

[10:06] Marianne Cane: I'm not sure. I think, uh, I think it was written for the character, sure.

[10:13] Marianne Cane: You know, but I can certainly imagine how incredible her voice would have sounded, um, and her, you know, um, emoting what how powerful it would have been in that song.

[10:24] Marianne Cane: Um, and then "Boom Crunch," um, just while we're on Betty, although I want to get back into the sort of bigger picture of the workshop, but "Boom Crunch," uh, Paul Ford talked about Betty, um, uh, being unhappy with that song and really sort of, um, pushing to try to change it in ways that I guess Sondheim or Paul Gemignani, you know, they, Lloyd, Lapine didn't want to change it.

[10:53] Marianne Cane: And he referenced, I don't think he said Bernadette was unhappy with it, but he, but that she had struggled with it learning it and that it was like a tremendous joyful relief when "Last Midnight" was, was delivered, however 11th hour that delivery came.

[11:18] Marianne Cane: I, because I assume that now that you said "Stay With Me" was there, that your happy memories of Betty's trumpet-like voice must have been on "Stay With Me" rather than "Boom Crunch."

[11:28] Marianne Cane: Yeah.

[11:28] Marianne Cane: I think, yeah, that isn't a, um, soaring, uh, uh, I don't, I don't, um, have very specific memories of that.

[11:40] Marianne Cane: I mean, I, you know, I was the assistant stage manager, I took the blocking and, you know, I was, uh, doing that part of the job, um, and just, uh, happy to be in the room.

[11:54] Marianne Cane: Um, kind of, you know, and I didn't quite appreciate the jazz waltzness of "Boom Crunch" then, you know.

[12:03] Marianne Cane: Uh, which just learning the, you know, the characters, what it did for the, for the people on it.

[12:11] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Well, so okay, let's, let's go back because so if it was a couple of weeks, I believe that in the first week Betty had not been available.

[12:24] Ben Rimalower: And so Suzanne Douglas, who was, I think, supposed to stand, who was standing by for The Witch and Rapunzel and maybe Cinderella was, um, going on as the witch in the first week.

[12:39] Marianne Cane: And then in the second week when Betty was there, Suzanne Douglas was Rapunzel opposite Betty. Does that seem remember correctly to you?

[12:48] Marianne Cane: That could be.

[14:00] Marianne Cane: And I, I think, um, that I don't know, I wasn't privy to, you know, the discussions that went on.

[14:09] Marianne Cane: Um, but I think that, uh, that Betty Buckley's was trying to change things around her, and they already had built something that was very solid and strong.

[14:23] Marianne Cane: So I think it was like breaking into the club a little bit.

[14:28] Marianne Cane: Um, I don't mean to sound petty, but, uh, there was something really, um, you know, there was a real kind of family they had built and were building this thing together.

[14:40] Marianne Cane: And I'm not sure that the character of the witch was really one of the ensemble roles at that point.

[14:49] Marianne Cane: It wasn't, uh, you know, a star turn. And I think that's maybe what she was looking for. That, you know, she never talked to me about it, so I don't know. Yeah, but I think that may have been where there was tension.

[15:02] Ben Rimalower: That's interesting. I mean, it also seems like, um, it was, uh, well, RJ Cutler, uh, or David Warren, I'm sorry, I'm forgetting which one said this to me. But one of them had said that they had thought maybe a lesson coming out of San Diego was that, uh, regardless of who played the witch, that the character needed to have more material and be more of a starring role than it had originally been, um, conceived.

[15:29] Marianne Cane: And, um, so that would have seemed to be in support of, if you know, Betty. Um, but, uh, well, okay, so then just as far as you talked about taking notes on the blocking, was this like a fully staged presentation? I mean, um, you know, is it sort of, you know, reading choreography of like get up from your folding chair, go stand at the music stand, or was it like real staging?

[16:00] Marianne Cane: I think it was, I think it was semi-staged. I think that there was a, I may be wrong, but I think that there was, uh, you know, some, uh, floor plan taped out on the floor and there was some movement, and, um, that's what I recall, but I could be wrong. I could, you know, I put in for the Broadway run, I mostly ran the understudy rehearsals and put in new people, and so I did a lot of that, so I could, that could be informing that, uh, workshop that was there.

[16:38] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, it's funny you say that because I, by the way, this was at 890 Broadway, which is this also the same, the Michael Bennett studios, the same place that you rehearsed the Broadway production. Is that right?

[16:49] Marianne Cane: Right. Is it likely that it was in the same studio at 890 that you would have had Broadway rehearsals in?

[16:57] Marianne Cane: It could have been. And, um, because like, uh, I have a little bit of an ongoing disagreement with Chip Zien, who really feels that, um, that Betty started rehearsals for the Broadway production and then Bernadette replaced her after rehearsals had started. And I'm really certain that he's wrong and that Bernadette was there for the first rehearsal. And I keep saying to him that maybe the reason he thinks that is because you were in the same room with the same tape on the floor and it's all kind of jumbled together.

[17:31] Ben Rimalower: That's, that could be.

[17:33] Marianne Cane: Yeah. Um, thank you. I'm putting you on team Ben on this one. Um, okay, so, uh, then, uh, semi-staged, maybe entrances and exits with some semblance of a set design delineated on the floor and tape. And, um, you talked about Sondheim rewriting, but you were talking specifically about "Stay with Me," but was that the process throughout the two weeks that new material kind of like kept coming in, uh, over the course of the time?

[18:06] Marianne Cane: That's an excellent question. And Paul Ford, Paul Ford would know the answer to that. Um, you know, it was all new to me, the material. So, you know, I knew that they were working on it and that they were, you know, adjusting things, so I don't know all what was added because I was still coming up to speed with what was there.

[18:24] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[18:26] Marianne Cane: One thing that all seemed to remember, um, was that it, there were multiple performances, whether it was, I think two or three, there was some confusion. Um, and that the point of the multiples was to see the different possibilities for the ending. He described it, he said, I guess I took him literally, but I guess he meant it jokingly. But that there was one where the baker's wife died, one where the baker's wife lived, and one where everybody died. I guess he, that's what he really meant was where a lot of people died, not everybody. Um, but, uh, but he also wasn't sure if that was three separate full runs of the script, or if it was like, you know, you got to page ninety-five once and then did the last five pages three different ways. I don't recall.

[19:23] Marianne Cane: No, no, which I did, but not, um, other people have also remembered like, um, a really high pressure, like show business kind of A-list invited audience that, you know, after these sort of two weeks in the room with just the team and the cast, all of a sudden it was Kevin Kline and Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio and Mandy Patinkin and Bernadette Peters, you know, not to mention presumably every producer in New York. Does that ring a bell?

[19:54] Marianne Cane: I think, yeah, I think there was, there were angels there. Um, I, I don't, it wasn't a, oh, just us folks. Uh, but, you know, I was still completely, uh, starstruck by working with Sondheim. So, yeah, you know.

[20:12] Ben Rimalower: And, and you know, it's funny thinking about Sondheim in this moment because like, um, I think a lot of, um, somehow it's very familiar to me the idea of Sondheim in the most recent years in the final years of his life, as this sort of like just godfather of musical theater, the most respected, most admired. Everybody from the entire spectrum of the industry just worships him. And, um, you know, it seemed like one after the other, there's just no end to the tributes and concerts and, you know, festivals. Um, and I also sort of have an image of the sort of kid upstart in the 50s and 60s around Leonard Bernstein and Oscar Hammerstein and all those people who was, you know, gonna change the face of musical theater, but it hadn't quite, um, done it yet.

And so I'm very curious about this moment into the woods where Sondheim is still, you know, a bureau, you know, middle-aged, you know, man, um, still certainly at the peak of his creative powers, um, very established, as obvious by the fact that you were, you know, starstruck by him. Um, but also, um, still really in it, still really doing it. What was his energy like in the room? What was he, how was he with you and with Frank and with the other collaborators and cast members?

[21:43] Marianne Cane: Oh, he's, uh, definitely a working theater professional. I mean, no question about it. He understood and liked the business, and he was, um, you know, funny and, um, and friendly and busy, you know, he was working very hard, but he, you know, uh, laughed loudly at, um, you know, jokes that landed in run-throughs, and he was just very much, um, there and part of the process. Um, you know, I think he really, really loved actors and singers and musicians, and he respected the whole, um, you know, theater process and the craftspeople. But it wasn't like I was, you know, best friends with him or anything. I didn't have much direct contact with him. He was very busy doing work that he was doing. But, um, no, real, um, you know, he didn't, he didn't act like he was, uh, unapproachable. No.

[22:45] Ben Rimalower: Um, at all. He was just, he was doing the work. And like, um, you know, just did he kind of roll in just kind of by himself, sleeves rolled up, like, you know, carrying the New York Times kind of a deal? Or like was he, was there a sort of, you know, team around him of like assistants and, and, uh, handlers and whatever, you know?

[23:12] Marianne Cane: Well, I, he, I don't think he wasn't like coming in with an entourage. No, no. He had, um, an, um, an assistant, uh, I think his name was also Steve, but I could be wrong, who was Steve Clark.

[23:26] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[23:27] Marianne Cane: Um, you know, who was often there, but, you know, he didn't come to the stage manager's table first. He was working with, uh, you know, with Paul Ford and Paul Gemignani and with the actors, and, you know, it was very, uh, very collegial react, um, relationships that they had, but there was, you know, he was doing a lot of big work.

[23:47] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Um, did they sort of tag team that work like, you know, what would the actors only get notes from James or only get notes from James and Paul Gemignani, or were there times when Steve would be communicating something himself or did Steve go whisper it to somebody and then they, you know, what was that process like?

[23:48] Marianne Cane: There were lots of conversations with, uh, with actors and I don't remember like note sessions where, you know, they were, um, they were, you know, like having disagreements in front of the kids or, you know, I don't know that, um, I think it was, uh, there was the, you know, amazing musical team. Um, I think that Steve and, uh, and James had, you know, lots of conversations and, um, with that. So I don't, I don't remember. I think there were musical, um, note sessions, uh, that, that Steve participated in. Um, and then there were the, you know, general note sessions. But, and then like in terms of, um, I mean, you talked about him loving actors and all that. Another thing that I'm sort of, um, mystified by is, um, uh, Burke Moses, who until I started doing this podcast, I had not known that he'd been involved in Into the Woods at all.

[25:15] Marianne Cane: Chuck Wagner played Rapunzel's Prince at the Old Globe Theater. Chuck Wagner played Rapunzel's Prince on Broadway. When I found out you all had done this workshop, I 100% assumed Chuck Wagner played Rapunzel's Prince in the workshop. So of course I found out that, uh, Burke Moses had been cast as Rapunzel's Prince, uh, in the workshop and for Broadway, as I believe everybody's contracts were. I guess maybe with the exception of Betty. Um, I mean, sorry, I know I understand that everybody had signed two different contracts simultaneously for the workshop and for Broadway. Maybe with the exception of Betty. I don't have clarity on whether she actually had a Broadway contract at any point. Um, there's different versions of that story, but Burke certainly did.

Um, and then I guess this Bob Westenberg thing happened where, uh, I guess Bob says they knew his schedule, but somehow they hadn't realized he had to be in DC to do the matinees of, uh, I think it was The Crucible that he was doing. So they said, Don't worry, we'll just have you, we'll have your understudy Burke do the Prince and the Wolf in the workshop, and we'll see you on Broadway, basically. And Burke's understudy, Jeff Blumencrans, would be Rapunzel's Prince. And according to Burke, he failed so badly, and Sondheim and Lapine were so unhappy with him that, uh, in this role that wasn't even his role, in this role that he was the understudy to, that he was fired and not taken to Broadway. And, uh, or I guess, you know, completed the workshop, but was fired from his contract to then do the Broadway production, which was happening very soon. Um, do you have any insight on that?

[27:04] Marianne Cane: I mean, Burke was so generous in talking to me about it, but it was all sort of through the lens of an actor's perceptions about their own talent. You know, as a third party, you are not Burke Moses and you are not James Lapine. What was it that they weren't happy with his performance or was there a personal dynamic? Did it seem, was it a surprise when he was let go?

[27:30] Marianne Cane: Uh, I remember only that they, that James had a very specific, um, vision for how, um, sexual the wolf was to be, that it wasn't supposed to be a subtle, um, thing, which definitely when that costume came and there were general crucible that was, you understood the degree to which he was talking about it. And I think that that may have been the, um, that I don't know, it that that may have been the, uh, divide as the, at that, uh, how far, um, he wanted him to go as, as the wolf, but I wasn't privy to those, um, to those conversations. I just, you know, I was grateful and lucky to have the job and, you know, yes sir, how high was my motto. Um, didn't, so you, it wasn't like a big drama that dominated the proceedings like it was a surprise when Burke Moses was let go for the Broadway production.

I, you know, wasn't, uh, aware of it if it wasn't right. It didn't, it didn't upstage to the rest of the room what was going on, not in, not that I noticed. And, and but the, but the Betty situation was more, um, conspicuous for everyone in the room I think so.

[27:56] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah, I think the stakes were pretty high in who was going to be the witch certainly.

[27:56] Ben Rimalower: Right, right, regardless of even what happened just the amount of spotlight on that when did you find out that it wasn't going to be Betty do you remember?

[27:56] Marianne Cane: I think just when we got the cast list for who we were going to be working with I think that's how I knew so then Brenda was on the list so um and uh I guess you you only had was it like three weeks off between the workshop and the first Broadway rehearsal that sounds right yeah it wasn't so so that was a pretty tight pretty tight turnaround um Paul Ford and Danielle Furland talked about presumably within that three-week period a reading at someone's townhouse where it was the whole cast including Bernadette where I guess Paul knew Bernadette was gonna be there because he had coached her on the music prior to that.

[30:03] Marianne Cane: But most people got there that day and found out, oh, Bernadette's playing The Witch.

[30:08] Ben Rimalower: Do you remember that reading?

[30:12] Marianne Cane: Um yes. Um not very many specifics of it, but I think that was definitely the first time that I had met Bernadette.

[30:24] Ben Rimalower: And um what was the progress?

[30:29] Marianne Cane: I think it was another angel's uh oh, like a backers audition.

[30:37] Ben Rimalower: Interesting.

[30:39] Marianne Cane: So that's that's pretty late in the day to still be raising money.

[30:45] Ben Rimalower: I could be wrong, also.

[30:47] Marianne Cane: Yeah. But that you know, other people like Jeff Bloomingcrans specifically talked about backers' auditions and stuff, and it's not something I think we think of because nowadays producers are investors, and so I don't they don't really do backers' auditions in the way they used to do, or they do workshops and people come. Um also we think of Sondheim as being, you know, somehow just how dare you not invest your money sight unseen on Steven Sondheim. But uh, but that makes sense. I mean, it was the 80s, you know. Um, and uh and obviously once they had Bernadette, it would be an amazing way to get the investors committed is for them to get to see her.

[31:33] Ben Rimalower: Um and uh that makes sense. Um people have talked about how the addition of of a Bernadette to the cast is just sort of a magic ingredient that makes everything come together harmoniously with professional polish. Did that did that just feel was that the feeling in that in real time?

[31:56] Marianne Cane: Well, it's just hard not to love her. Yeah that she's a very uh you know hardworking uh and charming person. Um so I don't think anybody felt threatened by having her there. And um, you know, she they were working on the on the show, and she was doing you know her job, and you know, certainly delivering at every rehearsal, but she was a very personal, personable per, you know, try and get in those lyrics. Um a person's personality is personable, yeah. Um so I I think that is maybe what the magic was, but yeah, you know, they were working on the show. Um that was the main thing and kind of just figuring out what it was, but I think everybody enjoyed working with her.

[32:55] Ben Rimalower: And then so once that Broadway rehearsal process started and it was the actual cast altogether, um Tom Aldridge and Chuck Wagner and Pamela Winslow arrived from her college musical that they let her have the workshop off so she could do.

[33:14] Marianne Cane: So funny. Um I know that last midnight came late in previews.

[33:22] Ben Rimalower: And I know that um Second Midnight was only in uh one or a very small number of performances, which I believe were early previews.

[33:33] Marianne Cane: So presumably presumably children will listen came in previews, but early in previews.

[33:41] Ben Rimalower: I don't think it came so early in previews.

[33:43] Marianne Cane: Oh, okay. So that was later as well.

[33:46] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, they could, and then uh you know, I think it came kind of late in pr in previews. I I missed that second midnight uh for a while.

[33:57] Marianne Cane: Oh wow, so second midnight was cut, and then there was a period of time when there still was no children will listen.

[34:05] Ben Rimalower: Right. What about the sort of pre uh it's not a reprise, but the sort of preview snippet of children will listen that comes when the witch sings Lament, which is really the reprise of Stay With Me in Act Two when Rapunzel dies, and then you know, no matter what you say, children won't listen. Was that always there?

[34:28] Marianne Cane: I think that came out of the cut second midnight. So I don't think it was there um the whole time. I think it was it was added.

[34:41] Ben Rimalower: That was part of the, you know, treasure trove of gems that were part of that song.

[34:48] Marianne Cane: Okay, so last midnight came very late in previews. Children will listen came somewhat late in previews. Even the little la children will listen snip it in lament came uh during previews. So what did you all do for those weeks of rehearsal in at 890 Broadway before you started tech? Was it wasn't new material because it seems like you were doing basically maybe there was little uh nuance adjustments, but it seems like you basically did the re the script from the workshop in those rehearsal weeks.

[35:25] Marianne Cane: Uh it wasn't fully staged in the rehearsal in you know so there was all of the the staging and working out the you know business and all of the things that you figure out rehearsal where props have to be and yeah how you know how it's going to go sorry I didn't mean to imply you were you all slapped off. But I mean but a material wise rehearsal process was about staging this show that was essentially the piece that had come out of the workshop.

[35:56] Ben Rimalower: I think that uh that James was just uh working on the script uh yeah a lot too I think they're they just were were putting it on its feet and uh and rewriting um and you know working there's a lot to do to get all of the music ready and you know they it's certainly and and for people that only know the modern process where you know the the director the the the book writer's assistant is in rehearsal with their laptop and changes are you know if any changes that are made in real time go in there just as they would after hours and then that is, you know, uploaded to a server somewhere that someone whose job is, you know, the script is able to immediately generate collated copies that are seamlessly integrated into the scripts people have because the pages, you know, are clearly uh proportionally numbered at the bottom with where they get inserted and what they replace. What was that like in 1987?

[37:09] Marianne Cane: Well, I think each new version uh was a you know was on a specific color page. So that you put in like the green rewrite or you know, then it would they were dated at the bottom. But you know, it's always a lot of work to make sure that the pagination works, because you know, that doesn't necessarily automatically literally all on the same page.

[37:34] Ben Rimalower: Um and uh was that the stage management's job?

[37:40] Marianne Cane: Um yeah, we had to make sure that everybody got the pages, and I don't remember um I don't think we were the ones having to type it.

[37:53] Ben Rimalower: Um I mean, obviously when well maybe it's not obvious, but when you're a stage manager and you're putting in blocking all of that has to get transferred to the new pages, and when you're making cubes, that has to be, you know, added to the pages that are there, and um there's a lot of making sure that things don't fall out. Like so, you know, if there's business now that used to be in a different place or was never there, and those costume designer's gonna need to know about it, or those, you know, you have to kind of keep that flow of information going.

[38:31] Ben Rimalower: And is that like, would those be the sort of production notes every day at the end of rehearsal or at the end of a preview or whatever, you know, that such and such change happened that this might affect these sort of ricochet effect down the line other things?

[38:48] Marianne Cane: Well, yeah, and also it in rehearsal, you're watching with, you know, you're keeping an eye out because you're the person in the room that is in touch with all of the artists and craft people you're trying to keep an eye out and just say, I don't know if this is going to affect you, but it might. Um so um and you know, just the technical sort of busy work of stage managing, making sure that uh, you know, if an entrance is changed that the prop they need is in the right place, and how does it get access to another and all of that, you know, just kind of watching for that to make sure that it's that just they're gonna have what they need where they need it.

[39:26] Ben Rimalower: And with all of those uh obviously so many props, but with the magic and all the special effects, was that all figured out in the rehearsal room and then uh put into practice during the tech rehearsal or rehearsals, or was was stuff sort of predetermined um outside the room by the designers or whatever?

[39:54] Marianne Cane: Well, I know that the magicians, the two musicians who worked uh on that. So they had talked about it uh in the rehearsal room, and but it's hard to really picture the trapdoor and those kinds of things until you have them three.

[40:14] Ben Rimalower: Um I mean nowadays we see these elaborate things, you know, especially for big musicals doing Broadway rehearsal processes with wheeled on kind of scaffolding looking um contraptions that you know simulate uh a sort of lower tech, less fancy version of what Broadway um pieces will be like. Did you have those kinds of pieces for Into the Woods rehearsal?

[40:45] Marianne Cane: I'm trying to remember, like Pam Rapunzel must have been up on something.

[40:50] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[40:50] Marianne Cane: Uh but I don't recall what it was. I am inventing that it must have been some kind of rolling ladder that locked, you know, but I don't I don't really remember.

[41:04] Ben Rimalower: And then would you and Frank and and James and his team with Don't don't leave Jana out of any of these?

[41:11] Marianne Cane: Excuse me. No, and Jana was extremely informative. I had a wonderful chat with Jana.

[41:16] Ben Rimalower: Um, would you all of you together would was there some sort of like a dry tech process before the actors got there? Um where you sort of figured out the this routining the sequences of oh, this is what the tower does, and on this piece of the music and that kind of stuff.

[41:34] Marianne Cane: Uh I was on, I was backstage.

[41:41] Ben Rimalower: So uh Frank was out at the tech desk in the front of house with the designers and um with James and Steve.

[41:49] Marianne Cane: So they may have had those conversations that were separate from me. Um, you know, I was in my in the wing on one side of the stage, almost on the other side. Um, so uh I'm not sure I don't know.

[42:04] Ben Rimalower: They tech rehearsals have a lot of hurry up and wait.

[42:07] Marianne Cane: Yeah.

[42:07] Ben Rimalower: So well, I I want to get into the run a little bit, but just one more question about the material uh in and out in development. Cause there's these other demo songs that are some of them more like snippets. The group number, we have to give her someone, uh, when they're waiting to whether to feed the Jack to the Giant or someone to the Giant, and the song Um Interesting Questions, um, that the narrator sings, which we still hear the music of now.

[42:35] Marianne Cane: Um when he's uh given to the giant, but no one actually sings it. Did those songs get sung either in the workshop or in a preview or in rehearsal were they were they just scraps, you know, that were thrown away before they ever got staged, or did they ever have life?

[42:53] Ben Rimalower: No, I think that the I mean the whole argument about uh you know, I think it's still in the show, isn't it? The argument about um what you know, we'll give her uh who so it's your fault, I guess that's that's the number you were.

[42:59] Marianne Cane: So it's your fault. No, but there's that other song, uh We Have to Give Her Someone that they there's a demo of them singing like it's it maybe it was replaced by it's your fault. Um it's the witch arguing that they have to feed someone to the giant.

[43:24] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I think it became incorporated into your fault.

[43:27] Marianne Cane: Sure, that makes sense.

[43:28] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[43:29] Marianne Cane: Um, and other little things that actually were recorded on the album, but were not in the show. Um like the longer version of He's a Very Nice Prince, um, where the Baker's wife and Cinderella have a sort of beautiful um duet sort of cast uh, you know, building up the to the the same way that Agony does.

[43:51] Ben Rimalower: Um and uh the witch's longer version of Lament that has a little more of that stay with me, uh I guess the bridge melody um did those things last long in previews or were they ever performed I'm not the right person to ask um yeah I I'm yeah I'm just not apologize no sure uh not either I mean everyone's just forgotten I should have done this 20 years ago um but uh so okay and then so getting into the Broadway um run uh I guess you I know you had understudy rehearsals every week to stay ready.

[44:34] Marianne Cane: Um, do you remember the first time someone went on or any particular incidents of that process before it was sort of a well-oiled machine? No, on Big River, yes, but not on Into the Woods.

[44:51] Marianne Cane: Yeah, um, I know people weren't sure what their backstage business was going to be like, how they were gonna get to their costume changes and all of that.

[45:03] Marianne Cane: Well, we had four stage managers, so when somebody went in for the first time, I would help. I would, you know, be there with them backstage to facilitate and make sure they kind of knew which way they were headed.

[45:16] Ben Rimalower: Did you not have to be sort of married to a station with a headset?

[45:22] Marianne Cane: We had, there were, somebody was calling the show. So it was a stage manager calling the show, there was somebody stage left, there was somebody stage right, and then there was a fourth stage manager.

[45:33] Marianne Cane: So, um, when somebody went on for the first time, I was free to help them just be their ghost backstage and make sure that they knew where they were headed next.

[45:44] Marianne Cane: Um, and then, you know, if one of us were calling the show, Frank could go out front and watch it and make sure that things were landing the way they were supposed to, and, you know, keep that, um, keep the show tight.

[45:57] Marianne Cane: You know, obviously with you, with the Musicians Union, the show has to run the same length, um, each night.

[46:05] Marianne Cane: Uh, you're trying to keep it close so that you don't run into overtime problems.

[46:10] Ben Rimalower: I understand that might have been a challenge when Dick Cavett was in the show.

[46:15] Marianne Cane: Uh, Paul Geminiani is the master of that.

[46:20] Marianne Cane: The master of keeping the pacing going.

[46:25] Marianne Cane: So, uh, we had that one, uh, in, I'm sure somebody else has talked about it, but we had that one time when the, oh, I think Pam talked about it when the Rapunzel's Tower got stuck halfway and we had to just bring the show to a stop to fix it.

[46:42] Marianne Cane: And, um, Cabot, uh, was just brilliant with the audience talking, um, sharing things.

[46:48] Marianne Cane: Um, it was, they got their money's worth that day.

[46:52] Marianne Cane: That was quite, uh, entertaining.

[46:54] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[46:58] Marianne Cane: So Bernadette left the show kind of early.

[47:01] Marianne Cane: She had to go, uh, make her film Slaves of New York, um, in the spring.

[47:07] Ben Rimalower: Was after talking about the gift of having Bernadette, what was it like to recover from that loss as the company?

[47:21] Marianne Cane: Well, I mean, we had Felicia Rashad to put into the show, and, um, you know, she's brilliant and formidable and, um, had worked a lot in, um, in television, uh, and when I was trying to give her the blocking, I, for me, it was all anchored to what the beat was, what the between the actors was.

[47:48] Marianne Cane: And, uh, she said, no, tell me where I have to be.

[47:53] Marianne Cane: Um, you know, give me the blocking, tell me where I have to be, you know, and it made me see the show differently.

[48:00] Marianne Cane: It's hard to explain how you, how you went because for me it was tied to the motivation, but the character was so new for her.

[48:08] Marianne Cane: She created the character and that wasn't the way I'd put anybody else into the show.

[48:13] Marianne Cane: Um, so it was very interesting.

[48:16] Marianne Cane: And she said, no, you know, she'll have her conversations with Lapine about who the character is, so just give her her marks and, yeah, and the timing kind of, um, so whereas before I tried to make sure that people who were going into the show were gonna fit into what was happening with the other characters.

[48:36] Marianne Cane: Uh, and because we rehearsed with understudies to get her into the show, um, and there weren't, uh, the put-in rehearsal was when it was really the chemistry, um, between the characters was happening.

[48:50] Marianne Cane: Um, so it was a very dynamic, um, uh, process.

[48:55] Marianne Cane: It wasn't like everybody mourned, uh, that Bernadette left.

[48:59] Marianne Cane: It was a lot of work to do to put Felicia into the show.

[49:03] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[49:05] Ben Rimalower: Was it really just one put-in rehearsal?

[49:08] Marianne Cane: I, they may have had two put-in rehearsals, but it wasn't much.

[49:11] Marianne Cane: Like we rehearsed, we had the understudy, you know, the rehearsals, blocking rehearsals with the understudies, but to put her in with the cast and with the tech and all of that.

[49:23] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[49:24] Marianne Cane: I think it might have been one or maybe two, but those are expensive things.

[49:30] Ben Rimalower: So, just for my clarity and for people, uh, ignorant like myself, like, so the understudy rehearsals are happening every week to keep the understudies fresh for if and when they have to go on in the various roles.

[49:43] Marianne Cane: And then when someone like Felicia is joining the cast, they join those understudy rehearsals to take advantage of this time with the understudies that's sort of already budgeted for, uh, and already scheduled that the new cast member can play their part and do it opposite actors who are prepared to potentially be on with them.

[50:05] Ben Rimalower: That's right.

[50:07] Marianne Cane: Right.

[50:07] Marianne Cane: It's so they know the blocking and we're doing them on the stage, but the stage is not, it isn't gonna change. It's, you know, the stagehands aren't there to move things around, but, um, so we do the, um, the run-through and work out the business and all of that, and then they have their put-in rehearsal with the real cast.

[50:33] Ben Rimalower: And sorry, go ahead.

[50:35] Marianne Cane: Just with understudies because they often cover multiple roles, they, you know, it may take a couple of weeks before they're, you know, a rotation before they get to play each of the, that they're responsible for.

[50:48] Marianne Cane: And that's only like two or three days a week that those understudy rehearsals happen.

[50:55] Marianne Cane: Uh, yeah, I th, I think it's, uh, I don't remember if it's, if it's two days, it may have been just weekly understudy rehearsals more in the beginning.

[51:06] Ben Rimalower: Right, because I think that's not, it's not matinee days and it's not the day off.

[51:12] Marianne Cane: Right.

[51:13] Marianne Cane: So I don't remember what day we had them, maybe Thursdays, I'm not sure.

[51:18] Marianne Cane: And so, um, and then when you do have the put-in, is that with the full orchestra and lights and everything, or that's an excellent question.

[51:33] Marianne Cane: I don't remember.

[51:34] Marianne Cane: I know it's with all of the scenery, and I think with the lights, and I, Felicia was so, um, aware of finding her light hitting her spot, uh, that it made me think, gee, I should be really paying attention to that, uh, when taking blocking for a show.

[51:50] Marianne Cane: So because I, you know, by the time when they're doing the landing design on backstage, I'm not seeing where the exact spot where they landed, and that's where the light cue is, you know.

[52:01] Marianne Cane: That was new for me.

[52:04] Ben Rimalower: Did that change?

[52:05] Ben Rimalower: Because then after Felicia, you had several other, well, you had lots of people coming into the cast in different roles, but certainly several people as the witch.

[52:12] Marianne Cane: Did that experience, um, change the way that you staged them into it?

[52:20] Marianne Cane: Yes.

[52:21] Marianne Cane: Uh, I, I mean when Nancy DuSoe came into the show, she was very, um, uh, she was from a theater background.

[52:30] Marianne Cane: I mean, she'd done a lot of television, but she was from a theater background, so there wasn't the same kind of, uh, you know, don't tell me that's not your job to tell me that information.

[52:39] Marianne Cane: So it was much easier, much more familiar, um, put-in for her.

[52:45] Marianne Cane: What a lovely woman she is, too.

[52:48] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[52:49] Marianne Cane: Yeah, I loved talking to her.

[52:51] Marianne Cane: Um, and, uh, and it's funny because, uh, both Nancy DuSoe and Felicia Rashad were such sort of iconic TV moms that I grew up on in the 80s.

[53:03] Marianne Cane: Um, but yeah, and both of them had theater backgrounds and originated in Broadway musicals.

[53:08] Ben Rimalower: Um, but, uh, and then what about like, uh, at the very end, uh, well, near the end when the original cast members came back when Bernadette and Joanna and I think a couple other people who'd left came back to film.

[53:25] Ben Rimalower: How did that, uh, how did you make that work?

[53:28] Marianne Cane: Well, I had, um, I had left and had a baby, uh, at the end of the day.

[53:32] Ben Rimalower: Oh, Mazel Tov.

[53:33] Marianne Cane: Very, very belatedly.

[53:36] Marianne Cane: Yes, no, I'm a grandma.

[53:37] Marianne Cane: Um, I, uh, I wasn't there for that part of the run.

[53:47] Marianne Cane: Um, the very end.

[53:49] Marianne Cane: I was quite big and pregnant putting people into the show.

[53:54] Marianne Cane: The sweep with the, uh, baker's wife part, it was quite funny.

[53:59] Marianne Cane: Um, but, uh, yeah, uh, I think it was, uh, like a reunion to have people coming back.

[54:10] Ben Rimalower: And, and you did not go work on the tour, is that right?

[54:13] Marianne Cane: No, I was a new mommy.

[54:15] Ben Rimalower: A new mommy.

[54:16] Marianne Cane: Um, wow, and, uh, have you revisited the show over the years?

[54:22] Marianne Cane: Uh, I either worked on other productions or even just seen them, watched the video.

[54:27] Marianne Cane: I saw the tour in San Francisco recently.

[54:29] Ben Rimalower: Um, wonderful.

[54:33] Marianne Cane: Um, and several years ago there was a, uh, kind of reunion of, uh, cast people, um, that toured around and I hadn't seen Danielle, I hadn't seen Ben Wright, I hadn't, you know, seen them for a very long time.

[54:50] Marianne Cane: So I saw them in Costa Mesa.

[54:52] Marianne Cane: Um, which was quite, you know, fun.

[54:57] Marianne Cane: I loved that group of people.

[54:59] Marianne Cane: It was a very special, um, special group.

[55:03] Marianne Cane: Yeah.

[55:04] Marianne Cane: And it was experience.

[55:06] Marianne Cane: And, you know, I just got a thrill.

[55:09] Marianne Cane: I, it was like every night you listen to the music, you listen to that, and you hear something new.

[55:13] Marianne Cane: There's just so much in the score.

[55:16] Marianne Cane: Uh, you know, it was just a privilege.

[55:20] Marianne Cane: And what a lucky thing to be able to listen to those singers, those musicians for your job.

[55:26] Marianne Cane: I mean, it's really special.

[55:29] Ben Rimalower: I can only imagine.

[55:30] Ben Rimalower: I mean, it, the impact that it's had on so many millions of us as fans, uh, to actually have been a part of the creation and to be working on it eight shows a week, all those months.

[55:44] Ben Rimalower: Uh, the way that it must just live in your bones and in your cells and in your heart is, it's really, uh, it must be so beautiful and intense.

[55:53] Marianne Cane: Um, but thank you so much for sharing these memories with me.

[55:56] Marianne Cane: I really, I'm so grateful for it.

[55:58] Ben Rimalower: I'm so happy we got to chat.

[56:00] Marianne Cane: Oh, uh, my pleasure.

[56:01] Marianne Cane: Thank you for reaching out.

[56:03] Marianne Cane: And I'm sorry, my memory isn't better.

[56:05] Ben Rimalower: No, you're fantastic.

[56:06] Ben Rimalower: I mean, truly, everyone remembers only what they remember.

[56:11] Ben Rimalower: Nobody can answer all the questions that I have.

[56:14] Ben Rimalower: They probably will never get answered.

[56:16] Ben Rimalower: And, um, but I'm putting it all, I'm putting it together.

[56:20] Ben Rimalower: Um, so, uh, you're a piece of that, and I'm very happy for it.

[56:24] Marianne Cane: Oh, thank you.

[56:29] Ben Rimalower: Thank you for listening to Giants in the Sky, how Sondheim and Lapine went into the woods on the Broadway Podcast Network.

[56:35] Ben Rimalower: Look out for episode fifty-four with Eric Stern, co-musical director at the Old Globe.