This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Ben Rimalower: Broadway Podcast Network presents Giants in the Sky: How Sondheim and Lapine Went Into the Woods.

[0:05] Ben Rimalower: With me, Ben Rimalower.

[0:07] Ben Rimalower: Today's guest, Eric Stern, co-musical director at The Old Globe.

[0:11] Ben Rimalower: Once upon a time.

[0:16] Eric Stern: I served as co-musical director alongside Paul Gemignani on the Old Globe production of Into the Woods.

[0:22] Eric Stern: I had previously replaced Gemignani as conductor on the original Broadway production of Sunday in the Park with George.

[0:28] Eric Stern: I was also a musical director and/or conductor on the Roundabout Theatre production of Follies and the Tyne Daly revival of Gypsy, in addition to Broadway productions of Shrek, Xanadu, Parade, Candide, Once Upon a Mattress, The King and I, Showboat, Carousel, The Will Rogers Follies, Legs Diamond, Rags, and The Most Happy Fella, as well as the National Tour of Thoroughly Modern Millie.

[0:50] Eric Stern: I have concertized and recorded with such diverse artists as Dawn Upshaw, Audra McDonald, Mandy Patinkin, Barbara Cook, and Betty Buckley, among many others.

[0:58] Eric Stern: I am a frequent guest conductor for the BBC and have led some of the world's best orchestras, including the Boston Pops, the London Symphony Orchestra, the Cleveland Orchestra, the Chicago Symphony, and the New York Pops.

[1:09] Eric Stern: I am the winner of an Emmy for PBS's The Music of Jule Styne, and two Gramophone Awards for I Wish It So and OK.

[1:17] Eric Stern: I am a professor of composition, piano, and voice at the Berklee College of Music.

[1:24] Ben Rimalower: Brilliant Eric Stern, my old friend.

[1:27] Ben Rimalower: So happy to chat with you.

[1:28] Ben Rimalower: I want to start by asking you the same question that I've asked everybody, which is do you remember when you first became aware that there was this fairy tale mashup musical Into the Woods by Sondheim and Lapine?

[1:43] Eric Stern: I think it was Gemignani who first mentioned it to me.

[1:45] Eric Stern: Uh, there may have been now, you know, we're talking about the mists of time here.

[1:49] Eric Stern: Yes.

[1:49] Eric Stern: Yes.

[1:50] Eric Stern: For one as old as I am.

[1:51] Eric Stern: I can barely remember what happened yesterday.

[1:54] Eric Stern: But it seems to me that it was Paul who first mentioned it.

[1:58] Eric Stern: I think when it came on the schedule, Paul realized he was going to have some problems with other commitments.

[2:03] Eric Stern: This is for the production at the Old Globe.

[2:05] Eric Stern: At the Old Globe when it first started.

[2:06] Eric Stern: I actually had nothing to do with the Broadway production.

[2:09] Eric Stern: By the time it went to Broadway, I was gone.

[2:11] Ben Rimalower: And so is this before the workshop at Playwrights Horizons in June of '86 or after that?

[2:17] Eric Stern: Yes, it was after.

[2:17] Eric Stern: I'm sorry, it was after it.

[2:19] Eric Stern: I forget, I'm trying to remember the name of the rehearsal space we were in in Chelsea.

[2:24] Eric Stern: Was it the Westbeth Theater Center?

[2:27] Ben Rimalower: Yes, that's exactly what it was.

[2:28] Eric Stern: Thank you.

[2:29] Eric Stern: I was trying to pull that out of the fog of memory.

[2:33] Eric Stern: Um yeah, it was at that point.

[2:35] Eric Stern: So I may have known about it beforehand, but that was the first time I became aware that it was actually happening.

[2:41] Ben Rimalower: And so, uh, just on that note of the Westbeth, I know that um I've heard from some NYU students at the time.

[2:50] Ben Rimalower: Now they're, you know, uh, their grandparents too.

[2:55] Ben Rimalower: But um they, uh, they at the time had responded to a uh post on a bulletin board to go be sort of blocking dummies like chess pieces for Lapine prior to starting the rehearsals for San Diego, but also at the Westbeth, and I guess he was making the decision whether or not he could do Into the Woods in San Diego without a choreographer, and I guess he was happy with what he did with these NYU students and then decided to do San Diego without a choreographer, and then whatever happened down in San Diego, they decided to have a choreographer for Broadway.

[3:32] Ben Rimalower: But were you part of that process with those students?

[3:35] Eric Stern: Am I crazy?

[3:35] Eric Stern: Wasn't Lars Lubovitch?

[3:37] Eric Stern: I guess was Lars involved in Into the Woods and in the Old Globe?

[3:41] Eric Stern: My understanding is that he was not.

[3:43] Eric Stern: I mean, he came from Broadway.

[3:45] Eric Stern: You're absolutely right.

[3:46] Eric Stern: Yeah, thank you for clearing that up for me.

[3:49] Eric Stern: First of all, it doesn't surprise me that that uh James was doing the chess piece thing.

[3:54] Eric Stern: Uh, a lot of uh directors and actually some of my favorite directors start out that way.

[3:58] Eric Stern: I mean, do that.

[3:59] Eric Stern: Um, I never met any of the stand-ins.

[4:01] Eric Stern: I wasn't aware of that process.

[4:04] Eric Stern: Um, but that's interesting.

[4:05] Eric Stern: That it sounds logical that he would do that.

[4:08] Ben Rimalower: And so Paul, so Paul brought you well, but I'm gonna just get a little background because I think this was uh where were you in your career and as a Sondheim fan?

[4:17] Eric Stern: Well, you know, what was the context in your life?

[4:19] Eric Stern: I try very hard not to use the word career because it just makes me giggle.

[4:23] Eric Stern: Uh, you know, I was lucky enough to work a lot of the time.

[4:28] Eric Stern: Um, I had just finished taking over for Paul uh for Sunday in the Park.

[4:33] Eric Stern: And Paul had to run into Grind, which was gonna be a huge hit.

[4:37] Eric Stern: And he handed me that baton and said, "Take care of my baby."

[4:40] Eric Stern: I've never forgotten that moment.

[4:42] Eric Stern: Uh, and I have stories about that mentorship too, which if we ever get around to it, I'd love to tell.

[4:47] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, for sure.

[4:49] Eric Stern: But um anyway, he left me with that, and uh I conducted the next year of Sunday in the Park with George.

[4:55] Ben Rimalower: Wow, and so was this uh was a replacement cast already in there?

[5:00] Eric Stern: No, I think I had the tail end of Mandy and Bernadette.

[5:02] Eric Stern: Mandy and I have always been friends, we've known each other forever.

[5:05] Eric Stern: We were, I think we were friends before then, but um I might be wrong, I don't remember.

[5:09] Eric Stern: But um no, and then I went with George and Marion Plunkett and George, what am I talking about?

[5:14] Eric Stern: Um Howard and and then um can't think of his name.

[5:19] Eric Stern: He's okay.

[5:20] Eric Stern: Yes, Eric.

[5:22] Eric Stern: Love the actor, yeah.

[5:23] Eric Stern: Uh and Paul Ford and I broke those people in happily.

[5:26] Eric Stern: Um, but the funny thing about that story is that Grind evidently was not the big hit that everybody, yeah.

[5:35] Eric Stern: And I got a call from Gemignani.

[5:37] Eric Stern: I hope he won't mind me saying this, saying, uh, "Can I have my show back?"

[5:40] Eric Stern: Which is not legal.

[5:41] Eric Stern: I mean, you know, he gave it away.

[5:43] Eric Stern: And what did I say?

[5:44] Eric Stern: I said, "Yes, of course. You can have the show back."

[5:46] Eric Stern: And he said, "Well, I'm coming back on Sunday, which is the last show of the week. So listen, you owe me a show. You know, you're gonna be paid for the first day I'm back. I'll call you and you do it, you'll sub in for a show."

[5:57] Eric Stern: And I thought, fine.

[5:58] Eric Stern: And months went by.

[5:59] Eric Stern: I never had a thought about it.

[6:00] Eric Stern: Yeah.

[6:03] Eric Stern: I'm going like, "Yeah."

[6:05] Eric Stern: He says, "Oh, you're doing Sunday."

[6:07] Eric Stern: And I went, shoot, I haven't even thought about that show.

[6:11] Eric Stern: And I start, my knees started knocking together, and I walked into that pit, scared out of my- I've never been more scared about anything in my life.

[6:19] Eric Stern: And uh whoever the George was at that time said, "White of whatever the cue is of a blank page or canvas," and my arm went dood, my arm knew it.

[6:28] Eric Stern: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[6:29] Eric Stern: I looked like it was a disembodied attachment to someone else, and I just stayed out of the way and I let my body conduct it.

[6:36] Eric Stern: Anyway, that story's always fascinated.

[6:38] Eric Stern: This might be an idiotic question, so please uh, you know, feel free to judge.

[6:43] Eric Stern: But um, you know, I've heard a lot of people talk as pianists about the extra challenge of playing Sondheim and the workout their fingers get, and you know, all those what is it, sixteenth notes, and you know, um is the same true as a conductor?

[7:00] Eric Stern: Yes, but obviously for different reasons.

[7:03] Eric Stern: You're not worried about the eighth notes.

[7:04] Eric Stern: Um, you're worried about the cueing, you're worried about the tempo variations, you're worried about catching things on stage.

[7:11] Eric Stern: I mean, when I took over Sunday in the Park with George, I sat in the back and watched every single move and memorized how the stage moved because I knew that's what was important.

[7:19] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[7:20] Eric Stern: I didn't spend any time with the cast on because the cast on was something else.

[7:23] Eric Stern: You know, it's not the same thing.

[7:25] Eric Stern: And uh, and as far as that goes, Into the Woods is especially this present form is twice as complicated as Sunday.

[7:32] Eric Stern: All these teeny little, you know, critical teeny little cues.

[7:37] Eric Stern: Um, so it's a matter of uh, you can't lose concentration.

[7:42] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[7:42] Eric Stern: But I was just amazed that uh, like I said, that the minute I started thinking about what I was doing, that that one show I did back on Sunday, it fell apart.

[7:50] Eric Stern: So I just said, okay, I can't think about this.

[7:52] Eric Stern: Yeah, I just watched my arms do the show.

[7:54] Eric Stern: Yeah, um, yeah, I mean, every show has its own challenge.

[7:58] Eric Stern: Uh, as you know, you must know.

[8:03] Eric Stern: But anyway, so I had known Steve and worked with Steve long before that as well.

[8:08] Eric Stern: I did a specific overtures at uh, at um, oh my god, there goes my brain.

[8:13] Eric Stern: Was it City Opera?

[8:14] Eric Stern: No, uh the off-Broadway at um, uh oh my gosh.

[8:20] Eric Stern: You're gonna want to trim this out.

[8:23] Eric Stern: Starts with a P.

[8:25] Eric Stern: It's a promenade.

[8:27] Eric Stern: Oh right.

[8:29] Eric Stern: Yeah.

[8:30] Eric Stern: I did the off-Broadway revival at Promenade, which and I had also done several things at York Theatre that Steve had seen.

[8:36] Eric Stern: So we'd know of each other.

[8:37] Ben Rimalower: Oh, were those like the equity library productions at the York?

[8:40] Eric Stern: I did one equity library production that he didn't come to, thank God.

[8:43] Eric Stern: But I did several at York Theatre.

[8:45] Eric Stern: He saw my Little Night Music, he saw my Anyone Can Whistle, he saw a few things.

[8:49] Eric Stern: When I say my, I mean the ones I participated.

[8:51] Eric Stern: Yeah.

[8:52] Eric Stern: So they kind of I was a known quantity.

[8:56] Eric Stern: And the great call from Gemignani was, by the way, have you noticed the problem is not getting you to talk, the problem is getting me to shut up.

[9:05] Eric Stern: Okay.

[9:05] Eric Stern: The call I got from Gemignani was just pure Gemignani.

[9:09] Eric Stern: He called me and said, "Look, uh I can't make the first rehearsals.

[9:09] Eric Stern: Uh I can't make any of the rehearsals in New York.

[9:14] Eric Stern: But then when he goes to the Old Globe, I can take over.

[9:17] Eric Stern: I can't conduct the last five weeks or four weeks or so.

[9:23] Eric Stern: So I was doing the beginning and the end.

[9:25] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[9:25] Eric Stern: And he said to me, "Look, I don't want an assistant.

[9:28] Eric Stern: And you don't want an assistant.

[9:30] Eric Stern: So how about when you're there, you're the music director.

[9:33] Eric Stern: When I'm there, I'm the music director."

[9:34] Eric Stern: And I'm thinking to myself, that's never gonna work.

[9:37] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[9:38] Eric Stern: And it worked perfectly.

[9:40] Eric Stern: Another example of how Paul's intuition is so dead on, even when it seems not logical.

[9:46] Eric Stern: Yeah.

[9:46] Eric Stern: It worked perfectly.

[9:48] Eric Stern: Um, you know, he didn't change much of what I did, and I certainly didn't change much of what he did when I came back.

[9:54] Eric Stern: It was like it was kind of seamless.

[9:56] Ben Rimalower: Um, so you were building it though.

[9:58] Eric Stern: I mean, you were putting it on the cast.

[10:01] Eric Stern: Yes, I did.

[10:02] Eric Stern: I taught it to the cast.

[10:04] Eric Stern: I watched the numbers come in, as you know, Steve is famous for not having a complete score when you go and I watched numbers come in.

[10:12] Eric Stern: Um, I don't know if you know who she is, long gone Matilda Pinkus from Chelsea Music copyist.

[10:18] Eric Stern: And she pulled me and she pulled me into Chelsea Copy and she showed me how the copies were generated and how the copyists work and how they try to preserve page terms on the page turns in the page, and I would go and collect every piece as it was coming off the press, and she would basically walk me through it.

[10:35] Eric Stern: Very sweet that she took me under her arm.

[10:38] Eric Stern: I mean, I know famously, uh No One is Alone came uh late in that process.

[10:46] Eric Stern: I think already in San Diego.

[10:49] Ben Rimalower: But do you know what came in the rehearsal room at uh at um uh Westbeth?

[10:54] Eric Stern: What's that?

[10:55] Eric Stern: No More.

[10:56] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[10:57] Eric Stern: Unbelievable.

[10:58] Eric Stern: He came in, we were in the middle of rehearsal in the second or third week, whatever, and he came in and he played that song, and I swear you've never heard silence like that afterwards.

[11:08] Eric Stern: No one could talk, no one could move.

[11:10] Eric Stern: It was a seminal moment for me.

[11:12] Eric Stern: I mean, it's burned edged in my memory.

[11:15] Ben Rimalower: Do you remember?

[11:16] Eric Stern: I believe that the song as it existed then was longer, where there was more for uh George Co.

[11:24] Eric Stern: as a mysterious man to sing.

[11:25] Ben Rimalower: Does that I believe so?

[11:27] Eric Stern: And actually there's one theme in it that I used in a scene change that I, you know, music directors constantly do little things and Steve's fine with it, you know.

[11:37] Eric Stern: So I wrote a scene change, and in fact there was a little bit of a wisp of that theme that's no longer in the show, but it's in that six-bar scene change.

[11:44] Ben Rimalower: What is could you, what does that sound like?

[11:51] Eric Stern: Is what I remember.

[11:52] Ben Rimalower: And it and what what's which scene change would that be?

[11:55] Eric Stern: Now I want to look for it.

[11:56] Eric Stern: It's the one right before No More.

[11:57] Ben Rimalower: Oh, lovely.

[11:58] Eric Stern: I forget what it's called.

[11:59] Eric Stern: It's got a, it's got a, you know, it's named after the cue line, which they often do with little cues.

[12:04] Eric Stern: They line that comes before.

[12:06] Ben Rimalower: Yes, yes.

[12:07] Eric Stern: And uh, well, just okay, starting from that point, I mean, obviously things have to get cut, shows can't be five hours long, but that certainly, I mean, you know, uh it's a pretty common thing to cherish the song No More.

[12:23] Eric Stern: I mean, whatever someone's opinion about Into the Woods, that's such a uh astonishing piece of writing.

[12:29] Eric Stern: And it seems to me like a loss to not have the fuller version of that.

[12:34] Ben Rimalower: Am I am I just wrong?

[12:35] Eric Stern: And you know, I think it still makes an emotional impact.

[12:38] Eric Stern: As a matter of fact, I can't really remember the first version.

[12:41] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[12:42] Eric Stern: And it's my everlasting shame that I don't have my original uh those original piano vocals from Matty Pinkus.

[12:47] Eric Stern: They're they disappeared somewhere in my many moves.

[12:50] Eric Stern: To my everlasting shame as well.

[12:52] Ben Rimalower: Um, what what else do you remember about the early incarnation of the material?

[12:58] Eric Stern: Well, I I don't know if this counts, but I fell in love with Joanna Gleason.

[13:01] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[13:02] Eric Stern: I mean, uh that woman's timing, that woman's sense of humor and character and warmth and all of those things.

[13:09] Eric Stern: I just, I mean, you know, and she and Chip were wonderful together.

[13:12] Eric Stern: Although that was, that was uh, oh, that was Chip.

[13:15] Eric Stern: I'm sorry, you had Chip already in San Francisco.

[13:16] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, we had Chip.

[13:17] Ben Rimalower: So let me ask you about them because I mean, you know, those were such iconic performances to us.

[13:22] Ben Rimalower: I mean, I always say that the legacy of Into the Woods, unlike most shows where you have to compete with an original cast recording. So many people grew up on that video and know every line in the book by heart. And Joanna, particularly, those line readings are like kind of inescapable. And you miss them when they're not there, don't you? And you know, it's not fair. I've seen wonderful actors do, you know, really terrific performances as the Baker's wife, and it just kind of can't escape that shadow for me, and I know for many people. Was that something that arrived fully formed, or did you see that get developed?

[14:00] Eric Stern: Well, I once again, I think my memory is not very good about that. Yeah, I just remember instantly going, Oh my god, this is perfect. And also, you know, I call them the Eve Arden lines. They're not the Eve Arden roles, they're not really, but that sort of dry wit that's the same as, you know, Charlotte the Countess in the Little Night. Absolutely. You know, it's that kind of dry, subtle wit that just was perfectly matched for her. And I also love the evolution of that relationship. You know, for the baker finally realizing that, oh yeah, she's smarter than I am. Or I or maybe even no, I need her. And that evolution was wonderful. And by the way, I'm still angry as all get out that they killed her at the in the second half.

[14:51] Ben Rimalower: I know in the workshop after San Diego, they had experimented with different endings where she didn't die or died in different ways. Did that happen at the Old Globe also?

[15:02] Eric Stern: Again, I don't recall. Yeah. I don't think so. I think at the Old Globe we were, well, let's put it this way. If it did, it happened during the time that I wasn't there. Because remember, the weeks we spent at Westbeth were about getting the damn thing on its feet.

[15:16] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[15:16] Eric Stern: And there's not much else you can do at that point.

[15:19] Ben Rimalower: Right. So okay, then leaving the witch aside, because I want to get deep into the witch. I'd love to talk about that. But with the rest of the cast, um there were, I'm curious, uh, you know, for example, George Co., I mean a Broadway veteran who was playing the mysterious man, which at that time a Sondheim veteran. And a Sondheim veteran. Uh the mysterious man, which at that time was a double track with Cinderella's father. Right. Um, you know, did that seem like a problem area in the cast that needed to be replaced for Broadway?

[15:53] Eric Stern: It's sort of surprising to me that he wasn't kept. Well, here's the question. Was he not kept, or did he have other things to do, or was he not thrilled with the role? Or I mean, you know, I can speak quickly to Ellen in the sense that that was an instance where in fact she obviously wanted to stay and was let go.

[16:12] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[16:13] Eric Stern: And it was kind of abrupt, actually. My question is, did they have Bernadette in their pocket already? Did they know that was gonna happen?

[16:20] Ben Rimalower: Well, I don't think they had Bernadette in their pocket because they did that workshop with Betty um immediately, you know, immediately before Broadway. And I mean, I'm getting so many different stories from had Bernadette in their pocket to Bernadette wasn't available, or they would have had her, or that it wasn't a big enough part for Bernadette, or they always knew they were gonna make the part bigger, so that wasn't the issue.

[16:49] Eric Stern: You know, it's I really can't get a sort of straight truth. And I don't know the answer either. I do know that I enjoyed Ellen Foley. I enjoyed watching her work. And I do remember the time when she was informed that she wasn't going to be continuing the show, and I just watched her sort of blinking back the surprise.

[17:07] Ben Rimalower: What tell what was when was that time? Where was that instance?

[17:11] Eric Stern: Um again, this is a story that may not reflect well on a member of the creative team that I actually am very, very fond of. But um I think James let it slip perhaps unintentionally. Um I don't, you know, I don't I can't really speak to it. I wasn't. Was I there? Did I see it? Boy, you know, you when you run over things in your memory, you tend to redefine them as you rerun them in your head. I seem to remember him saying, uh, look, I'm not gonna give you any more notes because you're not going to be joining the New York company. In some form, she was told that.

[17:49] Ben Rimalower: In San Diego.

[17:51] Eric Stern: Yeah. That was definitely in San Diego. And that's fascinating. The James that I am so incredibly fond of, and I've always been an admirer, would not have done that today. But I think back then it just he was had so much to handle, and it was just his way of saying, I can't really concentrate on you next time.

[18:09] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. I mean I don't think it was ill meant. When you witnessed that moment, was the feeling like, holy shit, or was it like, yeah, it seemed clear that that would be—

[18:13] Eric Stern: No, it was definitely the former. It was a holy shit moment. I mean, and was that to do with um just a matter of sort of marquee value, or did it seem like it was about the creative choices in her performance?

[18:39] Eric Stern: I would imagine it was probably a little bit of both, but I have no insight into it. That's just a guess. You know, and then as far as her performance, I mean, first of all, she had a lot less material than the witch ultimately had. I mean, if I'm understanding correctly what was in the script in San Diego, she had the greens rap in the opening number, and she had that song Boom Crunch. Boom Crunch, which you replaced with for a long time before last midnight. But she did not have Children Will Listen. And she did not have the stay with me ballad she sings through a punch. Which by the way is one of my favorite moments in the show. Exquisite.

[19:16] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[19:17] Eric Stern: Um, so I mean, it, you know, whether they had that in mind or not to beef up the role, they certainly had not done that yet. And but having that part be a star turn is an advantageous decision, ultimately.

[19:32] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[19:33] Eric Stern: Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, I haven't really gotten clarity yet on whether that was the intention yet at that point. And um because also Betty, I don't know, maybe you can shed light on this. Betty Buckley, who did that workshop right before the Broadway rehearsal process, you know, a matter of weeks, not months, um, had also done the Playwrights Horizons workshop prior to San Diego. And my guess was that she didn't go to San Diego because she was doing song and dance on Broadway. Because since they went back to her afterwards, and maybe that was the intention, you know. Um I also still don't know the timing. There's famous auditions of like Patti LuPone and Petula Clark and a few other people, Eartha Kitt, but I don't know if that was um after San Diego or during, you know, after the workshop or whatever.

[20:31] Eric Stern: But um one thing that Betty Buckley talked about in a book she was interviewed in, uh, called Nothing Like a Dame by Eddie Shapiro. Yeah, she talked about having artistic differences with James Lapine during the workshops, and that he saw the relation she well, that she saw the relationship between the witch and Rapunzel as an abusive mother, um, which I'm kind of just like, yeah, of course. But as she portrays it, that Lapine saw it as a lesbian relationship. Which at first struck me as Betty either describing it wrong or remembering it wrong, or even misunderstanding him at the time, or maybe he meant something sort of um allegorical or something, but then I remembered that the witch is not Rapunzel's mother.

And that I thought, well, maybe it was intended to be like the judge and Joanna in Sweeney Todd, and that you know the Rapunzel's like her ward. And on some scratchy bootleg videos of the Old Globe production, there does seem to be some of that coloring Ellen Foley's performance. So do you remember that being the take at that phase in the process?

[21:38] Eric Stern: No, I'm sucking all this up and loving hearing it for the first time. It's just fascinating to me. I should be interviewing you, Ben.

[21:49] Ben Rimalower: Um, okay. Well then tell me then what other things you that you do remember about that time.

[21:55] Eric Stern: Um, let's see, what else do I remember? Um I remember when the company packed up to leave the rehearsal studio. And uh there was it was almost like when you leave an apartment and you do that what they call a broom clean, you know, yeah before the next renter takes it. And I'm just I was standing there looking out, I just staring in his face, and we was pretty empty. And I didn't notice that James was behind me or next to me, and he turned to me and he looked at me and he said, It must be really tough to see this go on without you. And I thought that was an amazing thing for him to say. Yeah, you know, it was like you're hurting right now, aren't you? And I didn't think I was showing it, and yeah, just I wanted to just I didn't, but I wanted to give him a hug. He yeah, he was right. It's very hard to to put so much of yourself into something and then watch it go away. Yeah, but then I got to come back.

[22:52] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[22:53] Eric Stern: When I came back, um tunic was there. We were, you know, I got to watch that process, and I saw how much um how much it had evolved, and I got to watch Gemignani do some shows and basically sort of watch what was going on and then take it over. Um if I can tell you, I have three minor um please inputs into the show.

[23:17] Ben Rimalower: I would love to know that.

[23:18] Eric Stern: Two of them are totally ridiculous and stupid, and one of them I consider comically rather important. Um so my two musical contributions are very minor and very funny. One of them is that scene change I told you about, the other one is the music when Rapunzel lets down her hair, which Jonathan didn't even orchestrate, it's like a chill as going be-do-do-da-da-do-do-da. You know, yeah, you took one of the themes and just made a loop out of it, dropping down chromatically because there was no music to drop the hair down. But this is my contribution to Into the Woods. At one point in San Diego, Steve came up to me and I was not expecting this. Uh he said, Look, uh, because the number had ended, you know, that opening number is uh like five years long.

And it gets to the end, and it ended into the woods and out of the woods and home before dark. That's the way it ended. He said, How do I make that button bigger? And I don't know where this came from, but I said, Don't make the button bigger, make the note before it longer. Into the woods and out of the woo blah blah blah bum bab and home before dark because I knew that home before dark boom had to stay the way it was because it was flippant.

[24:33] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, it's like it had to retain that quality of flippancy.

[24:37] Eric Stern: If that is even what it is. I'm just trying to find a word. Yeah. But I don't know where that came from. I'm so proud in retrospect that I thought of that. I remember you too. I love that. And as a matter of fact, on Broadway, they even doubled it from what I had suggested. More is more.

[24:54] Ben Rimalower: That's incredible.

[24:55] Eric Stern: Exactly. So that is my contribution.

[25:01] Ben Rimalower: I love it. Um what about other things that had changed? Like when you when you got to San Diego uh to take the baton, do you remember what things you were like, oh wow, that's not how it was?

[25:14] Eric Stern: Um, no. I just don't have command of those details. Yeah. Also, my problem is I've done the show since.

[25:21] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[25:21] Eric Stern: So I do. You remember the final Broadway version.

[25:24] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[25:24] Eric Stern: Right now, the version that everybody knows is the version I know. What about um this uh is it true that Rapunzel, because I know it was Kay McLelland as Rapunzel in uh in San Diego. Um that she that her little um what do you call it, like vocalese was down the octave.

[25:48] Eric Stern: No, I don't remember that. I do know that motivically it's one of the most it it's a very important motive that runs through the show in so many ways. I mean that oh is when you look done better than low. I mean it's all over the score. Yeah, no, I don't remember. Um by the way, who knew that Lauren Mitchell uh would turn into be uh a big producer on Broadway?

[26:10] Ben Rimalower: Right?

[26:11] Eric Stern: Yeah, yeah. It's like Mary Michael David.

[26:16] Ben Rimalower: And Mary Michael David.

[26:19] Eric Stern: Lost on Eve. She and Michael David are been married for years now.

[26:24] Ben Rimalower: Oh, oh, she married, but I thought you said Mary Michael David, like Mary Mitchell Campbell.

[26:30] Eric Stern: Yeah.

[26:32] Ben Rimalower: No, sorry.

[26:33] Eric Stern: I should have said Mary Michael.

[26:35] Ben Rimalower: Yes, absolutely.

[26:36] Eric Stern: Oh, exactly. Well, you know. I mean, there were a couple other marriages into the woods marriage.

[26:41] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[26:44] Eric Stern: At least they went on a date during the show. I mean, uh, Lauren said that she and Michael didn't even like barely meet during Into the Woods on Broadway. Um, let's see, any other uh sort of like uh, you know, cast gossip from the uh San Diego run? Uh I'm trying to think who I really whether I remember any cast gossip, cast gossip. You know, I'm always the last one to figure out that people are dating or whatever word you want to use. And I'm always being told, well, you know they're together. I said, no. Really? Um I'm trying to think. Um I don't know. I I can't think of anything. I do uh oh no, I'm fumbling. I don't really recall anything. Um, you know, it's funny. My memory is so funny that I've even replaced uh what was her name?

I've replaced um Lou Ann Ponce with Danielle in my mind. Oh yeah. I mean I I see the same I oh I love the fact that that that um that little red riding hood is is has bloodlust that she'll cut your throat. I just yeah so many wonderful things about it.

[28:00] Eric Stern: Uh have you noticed that well, two things. Number one, in Lapine's stuff, well, especially in Into the Woods, the women are the only smart ones. I mean, the smartest character is the baker's wife, and then perhaps the witch. Yeah. Everybody else is kind of like in a funny place. And in the end, who takes charge and who becomes the mother? And you know, it's Little Red Riding Hood grows, she evolves. Yeah. I think it's really interesting. I also said to Lapine, and here again, I'm maybe unintentionally patting myself on the back, but at one point I pulled him aside in the Old Globe at uh in San Diego, and I said, you know, it's really amazing that both these shows that I've worked on that are yours have created completely original worlds that don't exist. It's like it's not a musical that takes place in you know Romania or that, you know, is like New York City music. You've invented completely new places.

[28:55] Eric Stern: Yeah. And what also fascinates me about those two pieces, because I consider them sister musicals, is the sense of the first act and the second act. Oh god, yeah. Uh and and I think, you know, people who decry that, I think that's kind of their strength. Yeah. I think in Sunday in the Park with George, you need to feel alienated at the top of the second act in order to understand the second half of the second. That's right. It's important. And I think that likewise in Into the Woods, you you need that reflective thing to, you know, to make the point that the play is making. So I just think it's very interesting. I think both pieces are very similar in certain ways. Did you um I know that you've done other productions of Into the Woods over the years? H have there been uh things that have come to you about the material that you hadn't uh realized in that initial uh interaction?

[29:52] Eric Stern: Yeah, I th I think I think the sense of who as I was saying before, I think who evolves, who changes is interesting to me. Uh and because I now sort of teach Sondheim in a sense, uh part of what I do. Um I've been thinking about that a lot. I mean it's interesting to me that I mean not to go back to Sunday, but um you know a lot of people really don't like the George character because they think he's a misogynist or they think he's you know and to my mind George is just like in the zone. He's it he's like maybe you meet a little on the spectrum. Yeah and I mean I love the fact that the only person he ever opens up his heart to is a dog. You know I mean I guess very interesting. But you know who evolves? You know whose evolution that first act is it's not starts out as a spoiled child and ends it ends up as a as a um uh complete woman.

[30:46] Eric Stern: Yeah and I think that uh I think that uh watching the trajectory in Into the Woods is equally as interesting. Everybody has a moment where there's a crucible there's a something that happens in their life that is uh dangerous and and and awful yeah and they come out of it a different person and or a better person. And unfortunately when that happens to the baker's wife she immediately dies. Yeah that happens sometimes I guess you know we never know when it's coming. Um I loved I loved Murray Louise's giant it was so much fun seeing this little lady oh and I forgot Barbara Brynn what a treasure she is her again her timing, her inflections are indelibly stuck in my mind.

[31:33] Eric Stern: Totally. In both those shows. Yeah. In both of those shows. Absolutely. Um, well, I'd love to know more about the relationship with Gemignani, if you feel like getting into that. Well, oh, sorry, that was my my computer blinging. Um Yeah, well, you know, there are people who dismiss him because in certain levels of minutiae in terms of theoretical knowledge and other aspects, they consider him untaught or uneducated. Um Paul is brilliant about well, in two ways. I think that well, many ways, but in one way the way Hal Prince was, the idea of constantly I mean, you think you have a rehearsal period that's like six weeks and it seems so luxurious. But Paul and Hal together were brilliant as at moving forward.

[32:25] Eric Stern: Don't stop. Etch the whole thing out, then look at it. And I've been in so many situations where someone tinkers with something so uh minutely and so uh almost obsessively without before moving on, and it's just Paul has a sense of of um momentum. Really, really wonderful. He also sees the long arc. After my audition for you know, they threw me in the pit at Sunday in the Park with George. They just threw me in the second half of the first act to watch me. And then Steve said, Let's go get a drink across the street. And what I want to say is I don't drink, but I I went and had a drink. You know, he he talked, we were talking, and he said, you know, at one point he said, you know, you you and Paul are yin and yang. Paul has an incredible overview, and you have incredible sense of detail.

[33:15] Eric Stern: And I didn't take that as a compliment. I took that as a challenge. I have got to develop a larger picture. And I'll give I'll tell you one story. Because I love this moment, and I I wish I could tell it to him to his face right now. I conducted a full performance of it of uh of uh Sunday in the Park while Paul watched it, and I came up afterwards. The only one the only time he watched me, and I came up afterwards just before he was leaving the next day, and I said, Oh god, I know I was a little late on that cue. And he said, Shut up. It was fine. Every little thing that you know, you're gonna fix it. I am not not worried about it. It was great. I said, That's it? He says, Yeah, you're gonna be great. He started to walk off.

[34:00] Eric Stern: And then I've always this always reminds me of that moment in Columbo when the detectives were saying, Oh, one more thing. He turned to me and said, Well, I do have one thing, but now you don't want no, listen, forget it. It's silly. I said, No, tell me. He said, Well, uh, when I'm at this point, and he mentioned the moment uh after uh the day off the dog saw. Yeah, I think about this moment, which is the moment when George freezes everybody, but right before he assembles the picture. Yeah, he says, to me, there's kind of like a line from there to there that and then he said, Nah, forget it. And he walked away. And I went into the pit the next night, and when I got to that moment, I started thinking about how the first act was gonna end.

[34:44] Eric Stern: And like it was like a chiropractic adjustment. It's like suddenly the skeleton lined up, and I just went, that's just that's just unbelievable. That kind of intuition, that kind of a note to someone, that's profound. Yeah, so I've never I've never taken him for granted at all. And his friendship I've always valued because I think that in certain ways he was absolutely the best there was. Yeah. In other ways, perhaps not. It's too big a job for everybody to be equally as good at all of it. Yeah. But boy, I had a lot to learn from him. That's the only story.

[35:20] Eric Stern: But but he liked you. I mean, it seems that he wouldn't that he wouldn't take every younger musical director kind of under his wing like he did with you and only a couple of others. We had we had known each other as colleagues. The thing about conductors is we tend to be lone wolves. We don't we don't tend to congregate. Perhaps fear that someone would bomb the place and all the conductors would die at the same time. We always have to be in separate places. But I mean, but we always talked, we always shared stories. We had once a I hope he won't mind my saying this. We had a contest to decide who had the most silly stuff in their pit. I have a rubber chicken. I said, I have a rubber chicken.

[36:04] Eric Stern: You know, he knew he just knew how to keep people happy and involved and and and focused and relax. You know and I've so many of my peers are lovely, lovely people, and they get in the pit and they turn dark. Yeah. You know, and I learned early on that and it's the advice I give to my students on my last day of theater conducting class. I said, don't conduct mad. It never helps. It's always horrible. Yeah. Keep looking forward, remember what a lovely job this is. Remember what a lovely story you're telling, and then deal with it later. You know.

[36:42] Eric Stern: And the other thing is that so many things that happened in the pit, which seems so microscopically important to you, don't necessarily translate back a couple of rows, and they're more important to you than they are to anybody else. Just tell the damn story and then fix it.

[37:01] Ben Rimalower: What do you think? You know, I mean, that certainly now, you know, there's such a kind of like Sondheim renaissance on Broadway, and it doesn't seem to be uh slowing down. And you know, it's safe to say that uh his shows will be kind of at the forefront of the canon, you know, at least for you know, the nearer term. Um what do you think that the new generations putting them on are missing for not having had Sondheim in the process the way he was, certainly on the original productions, and really even for all the revivals of his lifetime?

[37:35] Eric Stern: Well, the thing is that his process has been so carefully documented by others, but also more importantly by himself. He has written extensively about what he learned from Oscar and what he took from that and made his own. I mean, those two coffee table books are they're not coffee table books. They're they're they're literally primers. Yeah. You all all you need to know is in there. Um I'm not sure that proximity is necessary at this point. I I do know that I've always thought of him as the summation of the golden age rather than you know the absolute new thing.

[38:15] Eric Stern: He was experimental, he he he broke so many rules, he stretched the form, he brought he dragged the musical kicking and screaming into adulthood. You know, he celebrated ambivalence and and human nature, the depths of human nature. We know all these things, but still, in a certain way, he's still the product of Hal and Abbott and and Hammerstein and you know. I mean, I was in rehearsal with him in that production at Promenade when I was I was like in my 30s, and he turned to me and he said, You know, I really think that this guy should emphasize whatever I forget what the note was, should not emphasize this syllable or emphasize that syllable. I said, Okay, he said, Will you tell him or or or or should I?

[39:00] Eric Stern: And I went Sondheim is asking me whether you give an actor a note. But the thing is, he grew up in the arrows era where you wore a tie to rehearsal, and there was a hierarchy. And the reason there was a hierarchy is because it worked better, right? And he didn't want to be giving an actor a note at cross-purposes to me.

[39:19] Eric Stern: I mean, again, there's so many ways where I think of him really as the last great old school writer in that way.

[39:29] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[39:29] Ben Rimalower: Well, thank you so much for this, Eric. It is so it's so great to get all this from you.

[39:34] Eric Stern: I hope you can use any of it.

[39:36] Ben Rimalower: Oh god, almost all of it.

[39:42] Ben Rimalower: Thank you for listening to Giants in the Sky, how Sondheim and Lapine went Into the Woods on the Broadway Podcast Network. Look out for episode 55 with Robert McNeil, Jack on the National Tour.