This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Ben Rimalower: Broadway Podcast Network presents Giants in the Sky, how Sondheim and Lapine went into the woods.

[0:06] Ben Rimalower: With me, Ben Rimalower.

[0:08] Ben Rimalower: Today's guest, Robert Duncan McNeill, Jack on the National Tour.

[0:17] Ben Rimalower: Hello, people of the woods. It's Ben. I have some exciting news. I think it's exciting. I think maybe at least some of you will. I spent the day today in Hudson, New York, at Jonna Murray's house. Jonna Murray, previous podcast guest, who was the Broadway stage manager of Into the Woods. She was letting me go through all of her papers, her scripts from all the workshops and the readings and everything else. And I got some big answers. I have been looking for for years. As you may recall, I have been desperate to know who was in the table read at Playwrights Horizons in November of 1985. Christine Estabrook remembers she was the baker's wife. She remembers there were good bagels. Danielle Ferland remembers she was Little Red.

Chip Zien remembers he was a prince, and James Lapine thought he was bad as it. Indeed, Christine was the Baker's wife. Danielle Ferland was Little Red, although she's wrong, remembering that Robert Sean Leonard was Jack. He was not. An actor named Jim Fife was Jack. As the witch, and also Cinderella's mother, Dana Ivey, right out of Sunday in the Park with George. As the Baker, Tom Hulce. And then this is what really blew my mind. Cinderella, originating the role of Cinderella in the very first reading of Into the Woods, fresh on the heels of her success, her debut in the La Jolla Playhouse Merrily We Roll Along, the late great Marin Mazzie. Oh my god. As Cinderella's Prince and the narrator, Daniel Gerroll.

Yes, Chip Zien was Rapunzel's Prince, and he was the Wolf, and he was Rumpelstiltskin. As Rapunzel and Lucinda, Vicki Clark. As the stepmother and Milky White, which was a speaking role, Marcia Lewis, as Jack's mother, and in the role she would eventually play, grandmother, Merle Louise, as the mysterious man and Cinderella's father, Barnard Hughes, and as Florinda, Jan Newberger. My mind is blown, head exploding emoji, sharing my joy. Once upon a time. Robert Duncan McNeill played Jack on the national tour of Into the Woods. He originated the role of Rick in Six Degrees of Separation on Broadway. His other acting credits include everything from dancing opposite Madonna in the Material Girl video to seven seasons on Star Trek: Voyager as Lieutenant Tom Paris. For most of the last 20 plus years, he has been busy as a director, producer, and writer on television, including serving as executive producer on the current sci-fi network hit Resident Alien.

[3:26] Robert Duncan McNeill: Um, I love your podcast, by the way. I really do.

[3:29] Ben Rimalower: Thank you so much. That's so nice to hear.

[3:31] Robert Duncan McNeill: I love it. I've been listening to, let's see, Jonathan Hadley this morning.

[3:38] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[3:39] Robert Duncan McNeill: And I listened to Doug and Tracy. And I think I can't remember who else. All your cohorts.

[3:50] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, you're gonna have to help me. I have a really bad memory, but you know, you help me along here, and hopefully I'll say something intelligent.

[4:02] Ben Rimalower: Well, even with your cracks in your memory as the kid in the cast, or one of the youngest people in the cast at the time, I think you'll probably still have a little more freshness on it for me than some people.

[4:18] Robert Duncan McNeill: I'm shocked, actually. I listened to some of the people, and I'm like I was there almost the shortest of anybody. That's another thing you should know.

[4:29] Robert Duncan McNeill: Yeah, well you do your thing. I mean, do you have an intro or anything you do, or you just want to get into it?

[4:36] Ben Rimalower: So I mean, I did a little bit of homework about you. So I know you'd done a couple of shows before Into the Woods. You did Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat at the Paper Mill Playhouse.

[4:51] Robert Duncan McNeill: Yes, that's one.

[4:53] Ben Rimalower: You were in a revival of Godspell at the Lambs Theater, which I'm guessing—

[4:53] Robert Duncan McNeill: No, no, why is that in? Where is that? Like on the interweb somewhere?

[5:04] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, how funny.

[5:05] Robert Duncan McNeill: It's false.

[5:06] Ben Rimalower: So no, it's false information.

[5:08] Robert Duncan McNeill: Um, but not in a long time. I forgot about that.

[5:15] Robert Duncan McNeill: So there is when I first moved to New York. Are we doing this now? Are we talking?

[5:19] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, we're talking. This is real life.

[5:21] Robert Duncan McNeill: Okay. So I'm just sending you this link for later so you can go correct it or whatever.

[5:29] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[5:29] Robert Duncan McNeill: I was born in North Carolina in Raleigh, North Carolina at Rex Hospital. Moved around a lot, grew up in Atlanta, Georgia, and then in 1982, I moved to New York. And not long after I moved to New York, I don't know if I was gonna join Equity or AFTRA at the time. I forget what my first union thing was. But when I tried to join, I tried to join with Robert Duncan McNeill, my name. And I couldn't join because there was another Robert Duncan McNeill. And I was like, wait, what? I ended up meeting him. We were about the same age. We were both from North Carolina, spelled exactly the same, both theater actors. He ended up marrying Trini Alvarado.

[6:16] Ben Rimalower: Yes, they were together on Godspell, apparently.

[6:19] Robert Duncan McNeill: Yes, so he was in Godspell. I think Don Scardina directed that Godspell production, and I was doing a soap opera at the time, and I remember maybe talking to Don or auditioning for it.

[6:34] Ben Rimalower: Oh funny.

[6:35] Robert Duncan McNeill: But I didn't end up doing it. But yet the other Robert Duncan McNeill did Godspell. And yeah, so there you go.

[6:42] Ben Rimalower: So okay, well, so I was gonna say, interesting that you had to leave that early, but you didn't do it, so you didn't have to do that.

[6:49] Robert Duncan McNeill: I didn't know I didn't do it.

[6:51] Ben Rimalower: But you were sure I had done it. I did Godspell at the Georgia Governor's Honors program in 1980.

[6:58] Robert Duncan McNeill: Oh, before you moved to New York.

[6:59] Ben Rimalower: Yes. I played Jesus in that production. It's a summer, you get nominated in the state of Georgia. They still have it. I went back and spoke to some of the classes after. There was a woman named Linda Wise, who was my mentor during high school. I met her at that summer doing Godspell. She was also the high school teacher and mentor for Holly Hunter, came out from Linda's little, you know, group, among many others, but yeah, sure was amazing.

[7:29] Robert Duncan McNeill: Of course. Um, well, so you had this great training, and you moved to New York when you were, I guess, 18, is that right?

[7:37] Robert Duncan McNeill: I was 17 when I was. I was a young, I was a baby. I moved into New York in 1982. I took a train with a trunk, literally like out of the old Hollywood movies.

[7:49] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[7:49] Robert Duncan McNeill: I get off at Penn Station, and there's a guy there saying, "Oh, you need a cab?" I was like, "Yeah, I was going to stay with a friend of mine, a stage manager who lived way uptown." And anyway, I said, "Yeah, I do." I had my trunk, and I'm so earnest and naive. And he goes, "Great." And then he holds his hand out for a tip. And I said, "Well, all I have is 20s." And he goes, "Hold on, I'll get you a change." And he took the 20. Of course, he never came back. So that was my getting off the train to New York City at 17 years old and very naive, but yeah.

[8:24] Ben Rimalower: Unbelievable. Um, so okay, well, you wised up though.

[8:28] Robert Duncan McNeill: I did wise up.

[8:29] Ben Rimalower: And you were doing musical theater. You did Godspell in Georgia and Joseph. Did you only do biblical musicals?

[8:36] Robert Duncan McNeill: Um, yeah, so very exactly biblical or historically accurate musicals. That's all I did. I assume there were other—

[8:46] Ben Rimalower: Um, so you were doing musical theater. Were you a Sondheim aficionado already? What was your—

[8:51] Robert Duncan McNeill: Yeah, so I started in children's theater in Atlanta, Georgia, because my little sister was taking tap and ballet at some place, and my mother made me go, and I fell in love with it immediately. And all through kind of junior high and high school did community theater, local professional theater. All musicals, though. All musicals. I was tap dancing, I was gonna be on Broadway, that was my thing. I did summer stock stuff. And wait, what was your question?

[9:23] Ben Rimalower: So you did you have a lot of music?

[9:25] Ben Rimalower: Stephen Sondheim.

[9:26] Robert Duncan McNeill: Oh, Steven, yeah.

[9:28] Robert Duncan McNeill: So if you were a kid obsessed with musical theater like I was in the mid-late 70s, early 80s, you had to be a Sondheim fan.

[9:38] Robert Duncan McNeill: Sure. I mean, I had a record player and lots of cast albums. My walls were covered with programs when I had been to New York a couple times with like theater group trips. I had actually seen—was it in previews maybe, or just opened? I think it was still in previews—Sweeney Todd.

[10:00] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[10:01] Robert Duncan McNeill: My friend Harry Christian and I sat in the back row. We got tickets, like yeah, back row tickets to in the orchestra. I saw Sweeney Todd, blown away, got to meet Angela Lansbury and Len Cariou, which was not common back then. They didn't do the stage door thing back then, but they had come to this summer theater thing convention that we had gone to for this trip. So I got to meet Angela and Len Cariou. I ended up working with Angela Lansbury and Len Cariou many years later and told them both about that meeting and how I had the program with their signature on my wall. You know, yes, Steven Sondheim was—yeah, Follies played over and over and over, side by side played over and over and over. What else? Company played over and over and over.

[10:52] Ben Rimalower: How about Sunday in the Park with George?

[10:55] Robert Duncan McNeill: Well, that was when I moved to New York.

[10:57] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[10:57] Robert Duncan McNeill: So you saw that.

[10:59] Robert Duncan McNeill: I did. So I moved to New York in 1982. I was supposed to go to college, but I decided not to that first year and ended up getting a tour of The Fantasticks that I did. And then went down to Florida, did some dinner theater, and then back to New York, where I did my first New York show called Preppies with Kathy Roemack. She ended up being in the tour as Cinderella and famous people as the original Julieta in Andrew Lloyd Webber's Aspects of Love. Yeah. So I was this swing for Preppies. I'm still good friends with a handful of those people. Bob Walton is one of my dear friends. We—I just saw him here. He came out to Utah where I live now. Anyway, so I got my card there. And then I ended up doing a lot of musical theater like Goodspeed Opera House and Paper Mill Playhouse. And I worked with Tony Tanner, that director of Joseph's, as on the original workshop of Star Mite and Wow.

[12:01] Ben Rimalower: I guess maybe you were lucky that you didn't continue with it.

[12:05] Robert Duncan McNeill: Um, I think I was very lucky. Um, but so tell me, when did you first hear about Into the Woods? Did you audition for the Broadway production? How did that come into your life?

[12:20] Robert Duncan McNeill: So I was doing a lot of theater, and then I decided to go back to school because all I was doing was musicals, and I was for a couple of years in New York, and I'm like 19 at this point, and I thought I should go to school. And if I'm gonna get a degree that's gonna make a difference, it should be from a fancy school. So I auditioned for Yale, Juilliard, and ACT, which is where Doug went.

[12:49] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[12:49] Robert Duncan McNeill: Um, Douglas went to ACT. And anyway, I really wanted to go to ACT. I got in, but I also got into Juilliard, and I had a girlfriend at the time, and I thought, well, I'm gonna stay in New York, I'll go to Juilliard. So I go to Juilliard and dropped out of Juilliard after two years to do a soap opera, and I started doing television. And I did that soap, All My Children, for three years.

[13:15] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[13:16] Robert Duncan McNeill: Um, but I was really sad I left Juilliard because I loved the theater, and now I'm doing this daytime soap opera for three years, and I really miss the theater. Um, did some theater while I was on the soap opera. I'm getting to—I'm getting to Into the Woods.

[13:34] Robert Duncan McNeill: No, no, you're great. I'm loving this. Okay. And then I just want to give you some context of who I am.

[13:40] Robert Duncan McNeill: Yeah, yeah. So I get off the soap opera after three years, and oh, while I was on the soap, I did a movie in California.

[13:50] Robert Duncan McNeill: So I'm in New York doing a soap opera, and I did this movie called Masters of the Universe, which is, oh yes, the He-Man movie. This is iconic. Who did you play? This is important for Into the Woods, this is important. Oh, wow. So I played Kevin, who was Courtney Cox's boyfriend in the movie. We were the teenagers wrapped up in this whole He-Man drama, and I do this movie. I'm at this point like 20 years old, 21, maybe. Yeah, because Courtney turned 21 when we started, and I turned 21 shortly after. Anyway, I'm doing Masters of the Universe. And my agent, his name is Jim Carnahan. You may have heard of Jim because he's a big fancy casting director now. But Jim was from Georgia. He was from Tucker, Georgia, and I was from Atlanta.

He was just outside of Atlanta. We had kind of crossed paths in Atlanta when I was in high school, and he was a local theater. I don't know what he was. He was just there. He was always he knew everybody. So we get to New York, and Jim becomes my agent before Juilliard. And uh before he was even really an agent. He was answering phones at Dulcie Eisen's agency, a tiny little office. Uh Jim gets me on the soap, gets me in the movie, and then he says to me, he comes out to visit, he says, they're doing this new Sondheim show down in San Diego at the Old Globe. And maybe while I'm out there on the weekend, when you're not doing the movie, let's go see this show Into the Woods down in San Diego.

So we drive down, Jim and I drive to San Diego. Oh, he had Lauren. That's what it was. One of the stepsisters was his client. Lauren Mitchell, yeah. Um, so Lauren was his client. He's going to see Lauren, and we go down there, and it's incredible. It's an incredible show, but flawed at the time, in my opinion. Like there was a lot of stuff that was very different. Who was the witch down there? Ellen Foley. Yeah, Ellen Foley. She was phenomenal, but it was like she was kind of in a different show a little bit. It was like rock and roll. I don't know. It to me. This is interesting, if you don't mind me interrupting. People have described Ellen Foley's performance as rock and roll. And I know that part of what attracted James Lapine to her was that quality.

But uh but when I listen to bootleg tapes from that production she doesn't I mean she there's a lot of material she doesn't have that the witch had later. But but but the material she has is not very rock and roll. Like I'm curious what it means when people say that Ellen Foley seems so rock and roll and it felt very contemporary. Here's uh so now to focus on Into the Woods now that you have a little context about me. So um I know that James and Steven a lot of people thought this was like the show was based on Betelheim's uh Bruno Betelheim's um I forget the book yeah famous book about fairy tales and I think I remember talking to James about this and he said no it wasn't that at all it was much more um like he was a big Carl Jung fan and Carl Jung's sort of um what's it called universal consciousness ideas about these uh fairy tales that every culture has a similar fairy tale you go to any country any culture you go to Asia you go to Africa they have similar they have a little red riding hood version and they have a witch story and they have a you know, the princess stories and the Cinderella story, they have them all, and uh the idea that Carl Jung's idea that there's sort of this universal kind of morality consciousness, um hero's journey built into our brains in some way.

Um anyway, all that being said, to get back to Ellen Foley, those characters all fit that sort of universal consciousness. There was something about her that felt very contemporary. And Ellen Foley's super talented, by the way. Yeah, but you're you're just talking about her natural disposition. Like I think so, yes. Interesting felt it felt and honestly, I felt in the Broadway production with Chip was Chip and was or Chip and Joanna in uh I can't remember. They were it didn't hit me as hard, but I remember seeing it later and thinking, oh, they feel very New York, they felt contemporary as well to me. Yeah, it's interesting. One of the things that people have said to me was that where Chip and Joanna were sort of these upper west side like New York Jews, yeah, thrust out in the middle of these like classic fairy tale characters that on in your production on the tour that Ray Gill and Mary Gordon Murray were much more like a middle American kind of uh average couple.

Well, that's interesting, and actually also they've apparently James LeP Ray Gill had done the earlier workshops before the San Diego production. Oh wow, and I'm not sure why he wasn't available for San Diego, but I think but I think he was doing Driving Miss Daisy, wasn't he? Yes, was that that early? That makes sense. Yeah, that must be it. Because he did that show for like he did it at playwrights, and then when it moved, he didn't know he was in that for a long time. Because James Lapine was like in love with him for the big I was too. And had to be really convinced. Like Ira Weitzman actually liked played a trick like on James Lapine to like get Chip Zien's part. Because James, because they were because they were so different, Chip and Ray.

And James couldn't see that you know until he was desperate and they needed somebody for San Diego. So they went with Chip. Um interesting. But um, but then of course Ray was got to do it with you. Um but uh but that's interesting that Chip and Joanna didn't seem to you to have that contemporary sensibility in San Diego. I think it was because Ellen Foley was in that cast, and I remember just thinking, oh, they all seem to fit, but that one didn't fit to me. And I was very jealous of Ben Wright. Yeah. Yeah. Because I was I was such a Sondheim fan, and getting to see this kind of production at was it the Old Globe or La Jolla? Yeah. Getting to see a new Sondheim show after Sunday in the Park had been a huge uh had such an impact on me.

By the way, I lived at the time in a building called the Whitby, which was which is across the street from the Martin Beck. Yes. It's still there. I think Paul Ford lives there actually. Paul was my neighbor. We we shared a wall. Oh wow. And and Paul was from Atlanta, by the way. Where I so we had a lot in common, and I've I still I've I talked to Paul in the last year, probably. Yeah, what a great, what a character he is. What a character. And and and a part he was in the room for so many incredible iconic uh moments in in Broadway theater history. Yeah. Okay, so at the Old Globe, you were not in the room, you were just in the audience. I was in the audience, yeah. Was it automatic? Was it obvious?

You you talked about being jealous of Ben Wright. Was there no part of your brain that thought maybe I'm one of the princes? Or were you so did you sit feel that you're you were your type was automatically a Jack? I think it was a I I thought my type was a Jack. Yeah. I definitely did. I um the kind of uh naivety, the innocence, the the youth, I was still so at this point I was probably I was probably 21, something like that. Maybe 21, yeah, probably. Yeah. Um it just yeah, that that was the role. And and having gone to see Sunday in the Park so many times, I would second act that show because I was I was a block away, so I'd go second act it. Or I was at Juilliard when that was on Broadway, and they would give us tickets, you know, uh free tickets, uh, and I went multiple times because you see the replacement casts in Sunday in the Park with George?

I'm sure I did. I like would you have seen Betsy Joslin like play a shot? Yeah. Yeah. She was phenomenal actually. Although, wait, were you gone from Into the Woods before she came into the tour? Yes. Gotcha. So the tour that I did, I was only there until just a few weeks after LA. I did not stay with it very long at all. Gotcha. So you were there with Cleo Lane and Charlotte Rae, and then you were out. Yeah, I was there in the beginning. I wanted to um well, I wanted to do the show. And um, but I had I had been doing a lot of television at this point. Yeah. And um, the LA, we ran in LA from like New Year's until the end of February, maybe, or early early March, maybe six or eight weeks in at the Amundsen.

Then we went to Costa Mesa for two weeks, and then we went to Denver for one week, and that's where I left. Yeah. Um Charlotte left after she left first. She left after Costa Mesa, I think, and then I had one more week. So, okay, so going back, so you see this show at the Old Globe, and you're jealous of Ben Wright and this is the new Sondheim show, and there's a part you're running for. Yes. Did you audition for the Broadway production? How what happened next? I think I Jim Carnahan was still my agent. We talked, he talked, you know, and Lauren was his client, so he knew everything because of Lauren. Um, and I think they were gonna keep Ben. I don't I don't remember auditioning. I think I remember wait.

I think I remember going in for the standby because I was still on a soap opera. Right. And I had been an understudy um in a play downtown at the Maneta Lane called Palace of Amateurs. I'd understudied um um oh my gosh, he was in the original Dune, Kyle McLaughlin was doing there. And I was far too young to be understudying him, but I I uh I got the uh yeah, so I I had understudied while I was on the soap, and I auditioned for the standby for the Broadway company, yeah. Um, but I didn't get it. I remember that. And uh that was Jeff Blumenkrantz then, yeah, who was super talented, yeah, yeah. And I think dear friends with Tracy Katz. I think they went to college together, and they're like, yeah.

So um, um okay, so you don't get it, and then when do you remember when the audition came up? Uh, did you see the Broadway production, I assume? Oh yeah. Oh yeah, I saw it. I saw it at least a couple of times probably two or three. Across the street from your apartment. Yeah. Exactly. Where were you second at the end of the day? At this point I wasn't at this point I wasn't living in that apartment. I had up up town a little bit. But but I did see it a couple of times for sure. I remember going to the opening night party. And I think at this point I was single, and the girl who played Little Red on Broadway. Yeah, Danielle Ferland. She was flirting with me hard at the opening night party. Oh my god, I forgot about that.

Where was the party? It was in Central Park. I think it was Tavern on the Green. Oh nice, yeah. Something like that. I think it was Tavern on the Green. Do you remember anything else about that party? It was the eighties. I don't remember a lot. Was it like a wild eighties party? Like were Broadway openings like like coke fests? Like what was the vibe like in that? I don't want to I don't want to talk coke in the eighties. That's not what we're here to do, Ben. No, it was it was a it was a very fun party. I do remember Danielle flirting with me. I hadn't thought about that. I didn't plan on telling that story. But I think I think because Jim had Lauren in the show. Yeah. And Jim and I were best friends back then.

Nice. My agent. You know, not families with much means and certainly not show business families, but we both Jim and I had this passion for Broadway theater, and um so he I was his first client as an agent. He and I had sort of moved our way up, so going with him because of Lauren to the uh to the opening night party was super exciting, and um yeah, I think it was Tavern on the Green, I'm pretty sure. And I mean, do you remember at that moment thinking this is gonna be uh a big hit, or you know, they solved the problems from San Diego, or you know, what yes, yes, it did seem a lot tighter, a lot funnier. It was it was it was a bit darker to me and um more complex down in San Diego, just generally.

Yeah, it's a long time ago, so I'm really reaching to remember something. I think they the comedy might have been something that really came in the Broadway process, like especially with The Witch. I mean, I saw um there's like a video on YouTube of like a invited press preview, not not preview, like a dress rehearsal that a press was invite that press was invited to for the Broadway production. Oh wow, so and it's still in the rehearsal room, and uh and Bernadette is so much less funny than the performance that is so familiar to me from the cast recording and the and the video broadcast.

[27:41] Robert Duncan McNeill: And it seems like a lot of that business was, you know, developed in the process of rehearsal. So, um, it makes sense that it would have been a change from San Diego. I've gotten to work with Bernadette twice since, um, since the Into the Woods days. I've become a director now. I direct television, direct produce television, and I directed, um, Bernadette in Smash. I got to direct on the Oh, how wonderful hang the moon, right? Yes, yes. Um, yeah, when I came in to direct Smash the first season late in that season, uh, they were behind on scripts, and so they kind of stopped filming episodes and went back and picked up a lot of stuff from other episodes, like five or six different episodes needed scenes.

One of them was Bernadette singing, um, from Gypsy the, the Oh Rose's turn, Rose's turn. Yeah. And, um, and the director of that episode couldn't come back to direct that song. So I got to direct Bernadette's that song. Yeah, which was super exciting. And we talked about Into the Woods a bit.

[28:48] Robert Duncan McNeill: And, uh, and then not long after that, she came on to play, uh, Janine Graffila's mom in Girlfriend's Guide to Divorce, which I produced and directed. Oh, wonderful. I got to work with Bernadette twice. Um, that, that's that Rose's turn, especially. That's a full circle moment with that, that Sondheim. Um, when you do you remember when the audition came up for the tour?

[29:18] Robert Duncan McNeill: Yeah, I do. I, I remember, like I said, I had forgotten, but I did audition for the understudy, which I, this conversation is bringing back memories. I didn't think I would remember. But, um, so I finished the three years on All My Children in August of eighty-eight, probably. And, uh, right after that, within weeks, I think, Jim called me and said, "Hey, they're putting out this tour, and they liked you from before, they want you to come back." And so I went back in. It was at the Martin Beck, as I recall, on stage. Um, Paul Ford was at the piano, which was so great because we were neighbors, and I love Paul. And I knew he was rooting for me. Paul Geminiani, I'd auditioned for Paul a few times before, and I'd auditioned for the revival of Merrily We Roll Along at La Jolla.

[30:17] Robert Duncan McNeill: Yeah. Maybe for the ensemble or something. And he was, he was tough on me. Paul was always tough on me, to be honest. He was, he could be a, he could be a tough guy, and he intimidated me a lot. Um, if he liked you, he really liked you. And if he didn't, he could be tough. And that's, that's the feeling I got from Paul. Well, tough in terms of like a lot of notes, or tough terms of just like you could read, you could read him, you know, yeah. If he, if he wasn't impressed, or he wasn't, you know. So I don't think Paul was my fan there. I think, I think, um, James and Steven were probably my fans there.

[30:52] Robert Duncan McNeill: Yeah, I went and auditioned. What was the audition seeing, seeing Giants in the Sky? I don't remember. I have no clue. It might have been, it might have been, uh, you know, something that I sang. I don't know. What I mean, like you at that point you would have maybe had the cast recording. Would you have already known the song kind of like, uh, probably, probably. I really don't remember? I knew you'd ask me that. I don't remember what I sang.

[31:19] Robert Duncan McNeill: Yeah, I remember being there, I remember Paul being there, and that was really Paul Ford. Yeah. Being there. Uh, that was awesome. And yeah, I auditioned, got the tour, and was thrilled and was thrilled. But because I was already on this kind of TV track a little bit, um, a tour for a year or whatever, you know, the initial call, the ask was, it was a lot of commitment. And Jim Carnahan, uh, God bless him, was able to get me, uh, like an out pretty early after LA. I could, I could have left anytime after LA, I think. Not that I wanted to, because it's funny with that cast, like I was, yeah, I, I had to leave because I had to keep going for TV things. That was really, I knew that that was the long, long term, um, that was where I was gonna be able to succeed and make a long term career because honestly, I'm not the best singer.

[32:26] Robert Duncan McNeill: No, not really. I'm okay. I, I, and you know what's really, I, this also came to mind as I prepared to talk to you. When I did my closing performance in Denver, the sound mixer guys recorded on cassette tape that last performance, and they gave it to me secretly. Oh, nice. And I had it for years and years, and somehow, as things happen in life, uh, it got misplaced, and I, I tried and tried to find that two cassette tapes because it was first act on one and they put the second act on the other.

[33:03] Robert Duncan McNeill: Well, I definitely have audio of, it's not, I don't think it's your closing night, but I definitely have audio of the tour with you in it. With me, yeah. Oh my god, that's funny. I mean, I was not a bad singer, I don't mean to downplay it. I could sing, but I was not the best singer. Um, I, I really did better in the scenes, yeah, you know, and with the comedy, I think.

[33:29] Ben Rimalower: Well, that makes sense. I mean, thinking of Sondheim and Lapine, that that would be who they would gravitate toward, uh, you know, uh, for any of their shows. Um, and certainly Into the Woods. It's funny thing about the pull away from it as a, as a television actor, because I would think at least that Los Angeles run would have been ideal for you to be seen by Hollywood people.

[33:55] Robert Duncan McNeill: I mean, who else was going to see Into the Woods at the Amundsen? Yeah. It was super exciting to do the Almundsen run because, you know, a lot of well-known actors came to see it, brought their kids. Um, it was, it was a big deal at the end. And Charlotte is someone who'd been in the business forever and probably knew everybody and, you know.

[34:15] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, she did.

[34:17] Robert Duncan McNeill: I've heard people talk about Charlotte, and it's funny. I'm gonna tell a different experience.

[34:22] Robert Duncan McNeill: Please, yeah. I love Charlotte. And by the way, she was dear friends with a friend of mine, Kitty Swank, an actress who's a dear friend of mine who went through some real health challenges, and Charlotte was there for Kitty. And so I, I know Charlotte has a huge heart and is a sweet lady, but she was tough for me to work with, I'll be honest. In fact, uh, and, and here's why. Let me say why she was tough. I think she was very nervous and, um, technically nervous, you know.

[34:55] Robert Duncan McNeill: Um, what is w, uh, you're gonna remember the names of these numbers best, but, um, the very opening number.

[35:03] Ben Rimalower: Into the Woods.

[35:05] Robert Duncan McNeill: Okay, thank you. I won't remember any titles of anything I've ever done. Very challenging in that song. It has a wide range, and you know, wide range of intervals.

[35:16] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[35:18] Robert Duncan McNeill: I remember, oh gosh, I can't remember what came before. Uh, it was, I think it was the, the narrator who was speaking, and then there was this rhythm going, and she had to jump in. And it was so hard. She would, she would be nervous to start that she was starting wrong, and then if she didn't start right, she wouldn't recover for like almost the rest of the number.

[35:47] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[35:48] Robert Duncan McNeill: And I know Steven and, uh, who was our conductor on that. Um, I'm sure Paul did the musical direction in rehearsals, but our conductor, or I can't think of his name. It was your conductor. See if I can find it.

[36:05] Ben Rimalower: Was it, uh, right here?

[36:10] Robert Duncan McNeill: Music Randy Booth.

[36:12] Ben Rimalower: Yes, it was Randy Booth, yes.

[36:15] Robert Duncan McNeill: And I remember Randy would be down there, and he'd, he'd like, you know, point to her and she wouldn't jump in, and he'd keep vamping and point and she wouldn't jump in. And then if she got off, poor thing, she couldn't recover, and then often she would blame me.

[36:33] Ben Rimalower: And this is the part, this is why it was difficult.

[36:36] Robert Duncan McNeill: Whenever she had trouble, um, she got nervous and she'd have to sort of, um, blame someone, and, and most often it was me because I was in most of the scenes with her.

[36:49] Ben Rimalower: Sure.

[36:50] Robert Duncan McNeill: And I remember once when we were in tech in Fort Lauderdale, so we went to Parker Playhouse for the first, um, yeah, first performances, and we were in tech, and I remember she blew up at me again on stage, and I marched down the stairs straight to James Lapine, and I was like, I don't think I can do this with her. I can't, you have to talk to this woman. Like, please tell her if she's got a problem, talk to you. But she's not, I don't want her directing me.

[37:21] Ben Rimalower: And by the way, I say all this with so much love because she is a sweet, sweet lady, but she was a challenge for me in a way that I know some of the other casts have said, "Oh, Charlotte, she's so wonderful."

[37:32] Robert Duncan McNeill: Well, it's different. I mean, it's like, you know, having someone literally as your mother, as opposed to like crazy lady next door, you know.

[37:40] Ben Rimalower: Yes, exactly.

[37:41] Robert Duncan McNeill: Yes, she was tough on me, and she would, yeah, she would direct me a lot, and she'd sort of say, do it like this, or you know, and I remember, doesn't she grab my ear or grab my cheek or something? She would because she was so kind of amped up, yeah, she would grab me really hard sometimes. Like it hurt hard.

[38:02] Ben Rimalower: And yeah, I remember telling James, I'm like, you've got to tell Charlotte to stop directing me. Please.

[38:09] Robert Duncan McNeill: I, I get it. She's anxious or she's nervous, or the rhythms are hard, the tempos, but that was a tough one for me. But once we got into the run, once the nerves settled down for her, she was actually wonderful, and she was super, you know, she, she had just come off her sitcom.

[38:27] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, she was a huge, I was obsessed with her in those years.

[38:29] Robert Duncan McNeill: Oh god, yeah.

[38:30] Robert Duncan McNeill: Yeah. She was amazing on the sitcom, and she was probably the most well-known person in our cast.

[38:36] Ben Rimalower: Absolutely, yeah.

[38:37] Robert Duncan McNeill: More than Cleo.

[38:38] Ben Rimalower: Cleo had least at least across America.

[38:38] Robert Duncan McNeill: Yeah. I mean, so what was James Lapine like for a young actor to go and go to him and say, "Help me, Charlotte's directing me, Charlotte's doing this." Was he, um, empathetic? Was he helpful?

[38:55] Robert Duncan McNeill: Yeah, he sort of laughed at me. He sort of laughed. And he's like, I know, I see, I'll talk to her. I love James. James and I would play racquetball back in those days. And I had heard he told me that he had played with Robert Westenberg. James was a huge racquetball.

[39:14] Robert Duncan McNeill: Yeah. He was obsessed with racquetball. And, um, I really admired James for his work on Sunday in the Park, with, uh, the dining room, with all the stuff that he had done as a playwright, as a, as a director, as just a creative person. He was really, um, really impressed me.

[39:35] Robert Duncan McNeill: And the thing I loved about him is he could talk on one hand to you in these kind of creative, ethereal, you know, philosophical, deep thoughts, and then he would turn the next moment and give you some direction that was right out of vaudeville. It's like it was, you know, he could do both things in a beautiful way.

[39:59] Robert Duncan McNeill: And I've always, uh, enjoyed comedy, even though I, as an actor didn't do a ton of it, but as a director, I've ended up doing a lot of it. Yeah, comedy was always something I just enjoyed being a part of, and James being able to dig deep as a, as a theater creator and in those ways that were so, um, you know, the subtext and the meaning and the metaphors and all of that symbolism, and you could talk that, but then he could also talk the punchline and how to, you know, just pause before that last word and then, you know, and then say the last word out to the audience or whatever it was.

[40:37] Robert Duncan McNeill: It was very vaudeville, it was very classic, you know, show of shows or old comedy kind of stuff that I loved. I love that he could do both of those things.

[40:46] Robert Duncan McNeill: So we would play racquetball. Uh, once we got to LA. That didn't happen until we got to LA.

[40:51] Ben Rimalower: But when he was out in LA, was he around for the LA run?

[40:58] Robert Duncan McNeill: He was there in the beginning for sure. I remember getting notes, um, you know, sitting down in the lobby and doing notes out in the lobby more than once. So he was definitely there in the beginning. And then I think he came back.

[41:10] Robert Duncan McNeill: Yeah. Um, yeah, but I, I loved James and have run into him over the years and, and also I worked with James and Steven after the tour, but you we can get to that later.

[41:24] Robert Duncan McNeill: Oh, yeah. Well, tell me. Oh, okay. We um so I did the tour and I'd left kind of early, and I there's a side of me that I've heard some of your episodes, and I am so nostalgic and jealous that I wasn't a part of a lot of that because I left early. And also because I had just gotten engaged to be married right before we took off from New York. And I was very distracted with a lot of that stuff, personal stuff, which kind of kept me out of the summer camp vibes, you know what I mean? Which I really miss. I regret, I guess I would say. The thing about a tour, any tour that can be so amazing, or Summerstock, or those, you know, or even TV shows or movies. Um there's a bond that happens in that process that if you're really a part of it and you really invest in it is like nothing else.

But if you're kind of half in, half out of that, you miss some of that personal stuff that's just builds memories. And that's kind of how I felt a little bit um there. But anyway, um yeah, I left in March probably of eighty-nine, and I think it was that summer or fall, I got a call from Jim, still my agent. He said, "Hey, Steven and James are doing a workshop of a project that they're working on and they want you to do it down at the Public Theater. It's a week or two, I can't remember. It's a show called Muscle."

[42:58] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[43:04] Robert Duncan McNeill: And it's about it's based on a book. Do you know about this musical?

[43:09] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, and I think at one point it was um gonna be two one acts together with Shin. And then later Bill Finn was writing a version of it, maybe with Le Pine or maybe not, but sometime had abandoned it.

[43:24] Robert Duncan McNeill: Yeah. I think that I think it must have been James wanted to do Muscle based on the book, and Steven wanted to do Passion based on the movie. And yes, it was gonna be two because the themes were kind of echoed each other in terms of appearance and what we project outwardly and who we are inside, right? They had similar themes. So we did just the workshop at the Public of Muscle, and I was the best friend kind of guy. The lead in it who played the guy that muscles up was in Carousel, Michael Hayden.

[44:07] Ben Rimalower: Hayden, thank you.

[44:08] Robert Duncan McNeill: Yeah. Michael Hayden, and then I was his best buddy. But here's the best part about that workshop. Besides working with Steven again on something that from the start, like my mind was blown. Yeah. Because I listened to Follies and all of it. Um here's the part that was incredible. Madeline Kahn was in this workshop.

[44:31] Ben Rimalower: Whoa.

[44:32] Robert Duncan McNeill: Played Michael Hayden's mother. And I was such a fan of Madeline Kahn. Yeah. And to get to work with her was just like a dream come true. And I'm working at the Public Theater with Steven and James Lapine on a workshop of a new show. Uh, you know, my role was not Michael Hayden's role was very big. Um, I was definitely the best buddy. Um, but and I don't remember much about it, except I sat there watching Madeline Kahn work and Steven work on new songs. This was something, you know, in the tour of Into the Woods, it was not new anymore. They were changing things from the Broadway uh, you know, version a little bit, yeah, but they were basically kind of taking what they had already done, the work they'd already done, and just replicating it.

This was brand new work. This was new pages, new songs every day, new versions. It was the process of watching Steven do it, and he and James sort of battling it out because they did have different projects they wanted to do, yeah. Um, and that was very interesting, and then we had a lot of people come, sort of a backers performance, I guess. Maybe it was a couple performances there at the Public with invited audiences and things, and then I never heard more about the project. I never and then Passion came along, and of course I knew you know it'd come out of that process basically.

[46:02] Ben Rimalower: This is blowing my mind. I mean, I was just Googling it real quick. I I don't think there's anything online anywhere about Madeline Kahn having done uh this workshop or reading of Muscle, yeah. And um, that's fascinating. I I also Michael Hayden or you for that matter.

[46:21] Robert Duncan McNeill: Um, so I mean, would you what else do you remember about this? This is I mean, this is like we're breaking news from 1990.

[46:28] Ben Rimalower: Oh wow.

[46:29] Robert Duncan McNeill: I mean, I remember um, you know, because they had done Sunday in the Park, which had very different act one and act two, you know, time period characters, all of because they had done Into the Woods with a similar format in a way, yeah, you know, um, with the act one being the kind of familiar tales we know, and the act two being a very different, you know, people would comment, complain, or love, love or hate those versions, but it was a pattern that James and Steven had gotten into. So this idea of doing, you know, the first act Passion, the second act Muscle, um seemed to fit their brand at that point in time.

[47:09] Ben Rimalower: It definitely fit their brand.

[47:11] Robert Duncan McNeill: And um, yeah, it may not have been a two-week, that seems excessive. I bet it was just a week. It wasn't that long. It was but you remember that there were songs already.

[47:21] Ben Rimalower: Oh, yeah.

[47:22] Robert Duncan McNeill: There were songs written. There were songs written. There were scenes written. We did a performance. We did a kind of a staged reading performance of the piece. But I mean, so theoretically, these songs exist somewhere.

[47:37] Ben Rimalower: Somewhere, yeah. You don't have any of your materials still, do you?

[47:41] Robert Duncan McNeill: I'm so bad. I I think I heard your show with Jonathan Hadley, and he's pulling out these reviews and programs and things. And I was so jealous of him because I really wish I was that person that saved things like that. But yeah. I mean, we've got to hunt down these Sondheim songs from Muscle and Muscle as a tape of Madeline Kahn. Um, but that's fascinating. I I'm so happy to know that. And um, so uh what happened next for you? When when did you sort of cross over to directing? How did you wind up in Utah? I want to know the But this is has nothing, none of that has anything to do with Into the Woods, Ben.

[48:26] Robert Duncan McNeill: But you're you're uh well, I'll be surprised if nothing tracks back. I'll tell you. So Jim Carnahan was still my agent and dear friend, and um, yeah, so I do Into the Woods on the Road. I did get a TV pilot right after that. Um wow, I didn't ever think about this. It shot in Provo, Utah, right down the hill from me.

[48:51] Ben Rimalower: Um But you were from you said Atlanta, right?

[48:55] Robert Duncan McNeill: I'm from Atlanta, Georgia, yeah. So I mean, Utah was just a foreign land to you.

[48:59] Ben Rimalower: It was a foreign land.

[49:00] Robert Duncan McNeill: That's the first time I'd been to Utah was doing the pilot right after Into the Woods. So I I left Into the Woods in March. Sadly, and I do want to talk about Ray Gill some more, and I want to talk about that last week that I did the tour. In fact, I'm gonna talk about that first.

[49:16] Ben Rimalower: Go ahead.

[49:16] Robert Duncan McNeill: So we do LA and it's great, and it's sure. Um it's fun. And but again, I'm distracted by my wedding that's coming up and my my uh fiance at the time, um, who I'm no longer married to. So uh that's a shame because I I gave up all those great experiences. But anyway, um yeah, and so I did that, and and I hadn't been like part of the gang. I hadn't had that. But when we went to Denver, my ex-wife, fiance at the time, decided not to come for the first time. She had been down in Florida for everything. Oh wow, she had been she'd come to LA. She's always been there because we're planning this wedding and things. Um, you I guess you were only in Denver for a little over a week.

[50:14] Ben Rimalower: A week, yeah.

[50:15] Robert Duncan McNeill: She was gonna see you soon enough.

[50:17] Ben Rimalower: So that makes sense.

[50:18] Robert Duncan McNeill: Yeah. So we go to Denver, and at this point, I am very I would say uh Doug Sills was my dressing roommate, which was hilarious. Yeah, I mean, yeah. I used to carry around uh my headshot, and I would put it on Doug's side with like love you or I, you know, I'd put write different notes on it and put it up there, and I remember we just had we had fun with the mirrors as we went from place to place putting photos on each other's mirrors. Um we had a lot of fun. I I really loved Doug. And uh but Ray Gill had become probably my closest friend, I would say. We were really yeah, we were really close. And I I we just yeah, I I liked him as a human being. I just did. There was something about you know, you see you meet people, and he uh he was such a a sweet and talented and um kind and thoughtful person.

He listened and really listened in a way that meant a lot to me. And so I I became very close with Ray, and we're in Denver, and finally I can go out for drinks after I can. We actually went skiing because I I love skiing, and so I told the cast, I said, I'm gonna rent a car. Let's all go up to Breckenridge and go skiing on our day off. And and I remember Tracy came and Doug came and Jonathan came. Ray did not come skiing. Um, but we all went skiing and and for the day, and and just we did things for me. I didn't have a lot of those experiences on the tour. So Denver was my favorite place. That's where the sound guys recorded my last performance, and I'll talk about that. My last performance Sunday, um, maybe it was the terror of getting married, you know, in a month.

Maybe it was just I the dream that I had done a Sondheim tour like this. The cast was so amazing. So there's the scene where um the baker and Jack are up in a tree waiting to kill the uh the giant, and Ray and I would always goof around to the last second that that tree, you know, I try to make him laugh, and and he just he also I think just comes out of a very emotional song right before that, right?

[52:40] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, no more is right before that.

[52:42] Robert Duncan McNeill: No more is right before that, and that's where you are when you sing your parts in No One is Alone. No one is alone. Well, think about this. Here I am with Ray, who had been my best buddy, and I'm up in the tree and I'm singing No one is Alone. Wow. When I'm about to leave the show. And I don't know if I don't think Ray knew uh that he was HIV positive at this point. I certainly didn't. Yeah. Um I don't know what the meaning was for him, but for me, I was really gonna miss him, and I was gonna miss it. Felt like I was kind of putting a like this was the end of a chapter of my life because I was getting married and leaving the show. And so we start singing the song, and he starts to tear up. And then I start to cry.

And we frickin' performed that song, both of us crying and sobbing up in the tree. No one is alone, and the girls are down below, and they don't know what the hell's going on. But I d I vividly remember this moment. That is the kind of uh experience that you only get in the theater. I've done a lot of television since then, and and I love television, but it doesn't compare to that experience of um you're doing this moment in time, this and and it's these things are that are are informing your performance in a way that will never happen again this way. Yeah. Just like that night when Ray and I both teared up and I mean more than teared up. I was really trying to get my catch my breath, and so was he.

And um it was a it was one of the greatest moments in the theater. I don't know how the audience felt about it. They were probably very confused, but for me it was uh a really profound moment and meant so much to me that it meant that much to Ray that I was leaving.

[54:41] Ben Rimalower: Well, look, you probably wouldn't have had that if you had stayed longer and probably not. So, you know, that was a product of you of you leaving early. Yeah, and I think for him for for me and him for Ray, it it was Charlotte had left a week before. And again, I love Charlotte, but um but I think when I left, it was the beginning of oh, we're on tour now.

[55:08] Robert Duncan McNeill: Yeah, right. Like this isn't getting the show up and going, this isn't LA at the Amundsen with all the celebrities showing up. We're in Denver, yeah, and we're on tour. Yeah, and it was kind of like, oh, you guys are gonna go do the real tour, and I'm not gonna be a part of that. And Ray was the same feeling the same thing, I think. Yeah. Um yeah, it was that was that was a really there's a couple moments in the theater as an actor that that I remember vividly. That's one of them. Another one, uh a couple years later, I I was on I I did a Broadway play called Six Degrees of Separation. Of course, yes. And I was in the original cast of that play, and when we uh had moved from the uh the the new house downstairs up to the Beaumont, the big theater.

Um the first This was like the young people were like you, John Cameron Mitchell, Anthony Rapp, right? Yes, yes, yeah. Yeah, and I'm still in touch with those guys too. Uh still I talked to Anthony. Anthony, I Anthony and I now have a Star Trek connection because we both worked in the Star Trek franchise for many years. So uh we talk about those kind of things sometimes too. But but there was a moment where my character had a big speech where he talks about um going to uh Windows on the World and taking a carriage ride and then having sex with this guy, this con man, and realizing the shame he feels, and then he kills himself. So in this in this one monologue, it goes from the happiest moment for this character to the darkest moment.

I remember one night when we started bombing Iraq or was it Iraq or Kuwait. Uh it was the saving saving Kuwait, yeah. Saving Kuwait, yeah. And it was the first time that I had ever experienced a war live on television. This was 1990, 1991, maybe. None of us had ever seen anything like this before. We're watching this happening live, and then we were down in the green room, and I remember I had to go up and do this monologue, and I was just shaken by what was happening in the world, and so everything in that monologue was really about what we had been feeling in the green room downstairs, watching the TV as the play was going on. And this moment with Ray reminds me of that. That's my point getting back to it.

There's something in the theater, and I'm sure it happened on the Broadway with the Broadway cast and all of the actors that have done Into the Woods. But for me, that was that moment with Ray up in the tree, was um, yeah, it was really profound.

[57:49] Ben Rimalower: Wow. So I mean, these things obviously really impacted you, uh, these moments in the theater, these moments in the woods. Um, but you still chose to to make I mean you've been working now for years very successfully in television as a director. What did you ever think to keep weaving theater work back into your career in the present day or more recently?

[58:14] Robert Duncan McNeill: I I um I I think about it often, but it's funny how different, you know. Back in the 80s in New York City, um, there was no internet. There was no the only way you had a shot at being in a play on Broadway or in New York City was to be there. You had to be there, first of all. And then you had to uh have access to those casting directors or those people nowadays, and I know casting directors nowadays who talk about how amazing it is, we could just watch tapes. Yeah. You can go on we can go on YouTube and watch someone sing and bring them in from you know, Lincoln, Nebraska to Broadway, yeah, and they've never done anything. But and so in a way, the the skill level is defining who's on Broadway now.

It's not the access anymore. Yeah. Everybody's got access. Um back in the 80s when I was there, you had to have access. So I think if I were competing these days, my point is I was very lucky. Like I said, I was a I was a good singer, not a great singer. I was a good actor, maybe not the greatest actor. Well, but you got a lot of work with some really, you know, impressive directors chose you to be in some high profile projects and you know, and shows you repeatedly, even where you know they certainly had the chance to opt out of the Robert Duncan McNeill ride thing. True, I guess. So desired. Um I w I wanted to be a great, I wanted to be the greatest. And once I realized, I think back in in the 80s when I was in New York, the people I saw who were the greatest actors, like the ones that just blew me away, often I got to know I got to meet them at some point, and they were all a little bit crazy.

Yeah. And I remember thinking back then when I was young, but I thought, wow, I want to be one of the greatest, but if I have to be crazy, I don't know that I want to do that. So maybe I'll just be a regular actor.

[59:24] Ben Rimalower: And you know, and so that that was kind of my but even I mean but even in terms of directing theater, did that never cross your mind to to do that?

[1:00:24] Robert Duncan McNeill: It did. I remember after I started directing television uh in the 90s, I was on a Star Trek series, Star Trek Voyager as one of the regulars, series regulars. We ran for seven years, and I got to direct on that show in season two, and then after that. And I had gone to New York in the middle of that, I was directing some television, and Jeff Calhoun was an old acquaintance of mine. I wouldn't say friend, we weren't super close, but I knew him, and he was directing, he was putting in the Deaf W Def West production of Big River on Broadway. Yes. And they were in tax or something, and I and I went over because I knew him and I got to sit in and watch them do that. And I said to Jeff, I was like, I was like, Jeff, did you ever want to direct television?

Because maybe we could work out a deal here. Yeah. You help teach me what I need to know about what you're doing now, and I'll help you. And it's funny, I talked to Jeff about it, and I've talked to some other theater directors about that same idea over the years. Michael Mayer and Michael's done tons of television. He doesn't need my help, but um about mentoring David Warren. David Warren was our assistant in the road company. He was the assistant to James Lapine. David's now become a dear friend. I did a uh production for David at Playwrights Horizons of a musical called Lucy's Lapses about it was the uh what do we call it? The all-singing, all dancing, Alzheimer's musical. Oh wow. It was about a woman with Alzheimer's, uh and I played her son and David directed, and it was a wacky little musical.

Um, but that's because I got because of Into the Woods and getting to know David. Yeah. Yeah. David and I have stayed in touch and stayed good friends. I just texted him last week from yeah, I was working with uh an actress that he knew real well, and so sent him a selfie. But so why didn't you why didn't you make that crossover? Or you I mean you still can't, but I think for me, um boy, I don't know. I don't know. I mean it's you know, I've been in LA and uh I was in LA for a long time and then worked on the road a lot on location directing TV shows. And I think to be to do the kind of theater I really would want to do with the great actors and the great composers and the great playwrights, you've gotta be in New York City.

Yeah. Um I mean, not that there's not good theater other places, but um there's a different level of of theater intelligence, theater IQ and and and creative work that goes on. And I'm just not in New York, I haven't been in New York City since 1990 or yeah, I don't know, 25, no, 35 years. It's been a long time.

[1:03:21] Ben Rimalower: You you mentioned that you'd stayed in touch with James Lapine over the years.

[1:03:25] Robert Duncan McNeill: Yeah. Did you have um more uh relationship with Sondheim after the muscle workshop?

[1:03:32] No, I don't think I ever saw Steven after Muscle. Um Steven he he intimidated me. I mean, I uh I loved uh watching him uh with other people, but I feel like when Steven was coaching me, whether it was on Into the Woods, he did some private coaching at the Minskov studios where we rehearsed. I think those studios, I've heard other people mention the Minsk and try to describe it. I'll tell you where it where it is. It's it's in the building, the Minsk building. It faces Times Square. It became not long after we rehearsed there, it became the N MTV studios. Oh, where Total Request Live was Total. Total Crusty T R L or whatever. Yeah, TRL, right. MTV took over the Minskov and made that a TV studio.

I don't know what it is now, but that was the most popular uh Broadway rehearsal studios. I rehearsed a lot of shows there. Um yeah, I rehearsed a lot of things there that would then go out of town or the the um paper mill playhouse rehearsed there back in the day. Uh workshops happened there. I think the chorus line movie rehearsed there. I remember going and watching some of those rehearsals.

[1:04:48] Ben Rimalower: Oh, cool.

[1:04:48] Robert Duncan McNeill: Minskkoff was uh was Minskov and 890 were the two Michael Bennett studios. Right. Those were the two big rehearsal studios in town. And I remember when the Minskov, you know, became MTV or whatever. Everybody was like, where are we gonna rehearse? What's uh how are we gonna do this anymore? And they figured it out.

[1:05:06] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:05:09] Robert Duncan McNeill: Um yay, capitalism. Um you were saying Sandheim was giving you notes.

[1:05:15] Uh yeah, he gave me notes. I remember um when he was before the tour, he was coaching me, he was playing piano. It was just me and him in a little room with a piano. I was so in awe of him. It was hard for me to hear him sometimes. Yeah. That makes sense. It just was. It was everything about his behavior, his you know, everything. I was just trying to soak it all up. So it was hard to just relax and listen. He didn't seem like a human to me. Yeah. He was so in awe. But I remember one thing he really focused on was um the part of uh Giants in the Sky where you have this, he was talking about this incredible experience, and then you come back to Earth and you remember it, and he was talking about um what's the lyric?

And she draws you close to her giant breast that moment, and he goes, It's not just sexual. He was in, and then he started going off on this experience of like the most comfortable moment you can ever imagine. With it's it's a mother, it's it's sexual, yes, but it's more than that. And just the way he, I'm not even doing it justice, but the way he talked about that moment in the song stuck with me for the run. Yeah, that I remember making emphasizing that moment emotionally in the song in a way that I don't know that I would have. I might have gone for the joke or gone for you know what I mean?

[1:06:47] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:06:48] Robert Duncan McNeill: Um his his coaching on that on Giants in the Sky definitely shaped the way that it it landed with with emotion and meaning for me at least, and I hope for the audience. Um you blew my mind just now hearing that description.

[1:07:07] Ben Rimalower: So yeah.

[1:07:08] Robert Duncan McNeill: Yeah, he's talking about the it's sexual, yes, but it's also it's it's motherly, it's it's the warmest, you know, it's it's the closest uh intimate experience you can ever imagine. And and it's it's more than you can imagine that moment. And so describe it, feel it. And he was just coaching that moment out of me. And I think he was trying maybe trying to coach the comedy out of me and and to really land it in a way that that you know, maybe that's what he was trying to do, but it it stuck with me because I remember every time I performed it, um, that particular turn in the song, wanting to go back up the beanstalk, go back to this moment that you have to go home to realize how incredible that moment, what what you had, yeah, you know, it was that sort of conversation with Steven.

[1:08:02] Ben Rimalower: Um it sounds like it was kind of your experience with the tour where made it.

[1:08:08] Robert Duncan McNeill: Well, I didn't think about it. Yeah, but um so maybe maybe you should sing the song again. Um I'll keep trying to drag you back into theater. Um, did over the years have you experienced other productions of Into the Woods, revivals, the movie, the you know, video? How how how have have your feelings about the show shifted at all?

[1:08:27] Robert Duncan McNeill: I remember going to to the movie and I didn't like the movie. I I don't remember much about it except just going. I just it it didn't um move me. It didn't uh I didn't like the movie very much. Yeah. I'll tell you a production I saw that I did love was the one in the park. Yeah, the New York Shakespeare Shakespeare Festival. It's like a steampunk production. It was um uh what's her name?

[1:08:53] Robert Duncan McNeill: The redheaded Oscar winner.

[1:08:55] Ben Rimalower: Amy Adams.

[1:08:56] Robert Duncan McNeill: Amy Adams, thank you. Amy played the Baker's wife.

[1:09:00] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:09:00] Robert Duncan McNeill: Um that production. Yeah, it was kind of steampunk-y, I guess. They they what was the change they made that I I loved and of course.

[1:09:09] Ben Rimalower: That the Baker was very clearly um that the narrator is very clearly the baker's son.

[1:09:14] Robert Duncan McNeill: Yes. Started with the little child and all that, yeah.

[1:09:18] Ben Rimalower: That's right. I knew that whatever I couldn't remember the change, but I remember when I saw it going, oh my god, that's the key to this.

[1:09:26] Robert Duncan McNeill: Because it it it gave it a um it connected the narrator, it connected why are we telling these stories? It connected the themes of family and community and and the bonds that that all of these adventures in the woods kind of teach us that the these connections are the most important things. Uh yeah, that that change I thought was great.

[1:09:51] Ben Rimalower: I felt that way too. It's funny, but one thing that's come up in the podcast is that that had been experimented with a lot in the original in San Diego, for example.

[1:10:01] Robert Duncan McNeill: Wow.

[1:10:02] Ben Rimalower: And I believe in the workshop pre-Broadway also. Um did they do that in San Diego? Did I see that version?

[1:10:07] Robert Duncan McNeill: I don't know. I you probably I might have only been in for one rehearsal or one performance, but but I know that like Danielle Furlin couldn't even remember what was the final version they did on Broadway. She was convinced that that line had been in there, and then it was like, no, it wasn't, you know. But um but they clearly decided against that.

[1:10:30] Ben Rimalower: And I I want to do another interview with James Lapine because now that I know about that, I want to know why. Because to me it seems like exactly as you say, like that it's just so poignant and powerful as a way to tie the two kind of arms of the show together.

[1:10:45] Robert Duncan McNeill: Yeah.

[1:10:46] Ben Rimalower: And and uh, you know, James and Steven, and I think mostly James created the baker and the baker's wife.

[1:10:53] Robert Duncan McNeill: Yeah.

[1:10:54] Ben Rimalower: I I think it would that was James's you know, light bulb moment is to do that to kind of tie it all together.

[1:11:01] Robert Duncan McNeill: Um yeah, yeah. I I think um, yeah, I think the baker and the baker's wife by by having that connection that it's the the their child, that it makes that fairy tale that's added that that you know isn't the one of the classics, it gives it um immediacy in this story, in this particular story, in a way that it it it without it, um I guess you could say they feel a little tacked on, yeah.

[1:11:35] Ben Rimalower: It feels like they're they're trying to compete with these classics, and they're yeah, they're not that um in the way, I mean in in a jungian way, and ask James, this same question, maybe, but in a jungian way, we insert ourselves into the roles of the prince or the princess.

[1:11:52] Robert Duncan McNeill: Yeah, yeah.

[1:11:54] Ben Rimalower: Like that's how we hear these stories and learn these lessons in a jungian way that we are the wolf or we are the prince, right?

[1:12:03] Robert Duncan McNeill: Or yeah.

[1:12:03] Ben Rimalower: So to have the narrator, I am the child, you know, to literally be putting that into the storytelling of Into the Woods, I think is is is a key that yeah, it's really and it doesn't even have to be true. That could be this narrator could have been raised in an orphanage or by a grandmother who told him this and he believes it and it's all or maybe he knows it's not true and he's spinning a yarn, you know.

[1:12:28] Robert Duncan McNeill: I mean, I think that would be the whole folk tales thing that Le Pine was, you know, going for. I don't know, maybe maybe we'll convince him to change it for the future.

[1:12:37] Ben Rimalower: I yeah, yeah. Talk to him.

[1:12:39] Robert Duncan McNeill: I'm gonna have to listen to the phone.

[1:12:40] Ben Rimalower: Robert's Robert agrees.

[1:12:43] Robert Duncan McNeill: Wait, I have to show you something.

[1:12:45] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:12:45] Robert Duncan McNeill: Um, I've heard you mention at Oakwood, where you went to elementary school or school, that there was a poster of our tour. And so this is from our tour, and it says someone's been fooling with our fairy tale.

[1:13:03] Ben Rimalower: This is the one.

[1:13:04] Robert Duncan McNeill: That was the poster.

[1:13:05] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:13:06] Robert Duncan McNeill: This one has people's signatures all over the TV. I think the one in my school set had the specific details of the Amundsen at the bottom. And I think it builds Charlotte Ray as well.

[1:13:18] Ben Rimalower: Um, you're right. I think there was and that's yeah.

[1:13:24] Robert Duncan McNeill: Um this is the one I can barely see it. It says Denver Auditorium Theater under the free.

[1:13:32] Ben Rimalower: That's your that's your special place.

[1:13:34] Robert Duncan McNeill: Yeah, this was this was what they they gave me. This and they gave me a personalized, oh, it's in the garage somewhere. They gave me a personalized ski boot bag.

[1:13:45] Ben Rimalower: Oh love that.

[1:13:45] Robert Duncan McNeill: That had Into the Woods on it, and I still have that. Um I'm looking to see.

[1:13:53] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I don't think this hasn't have James or Steven's autograph because it was in Denver and they weren't around for that.

[1:14:03] Robert Duncan McNeill: Yeah.

[1:14:04] Ben Rimalower: Oh, Ray Gill. Everybody.

[1:14:08] Robert Duncan McNeill: Oh look at that.

[1:14:10] Ben Rimalower: Well, so tell me tell me about your podcast, Robert.

[1:14:14] Robert Duncan McNeill: Oh, really? Yeah, well, we'll plug it, you know. Might as well.

[1:14:18] Ben Rimalower: Okay.

[1:14:18] Robert Duncan McNeill: I don't know how much crossover between Broadway musicals and Star Trek there is.

[1:14:24] Ben Rimalower: Actually, there's quite a bit. I mean, a lot of everyone I know and am friends with is a Broadway musical fan. And certainly a lot of them are Trekys.

[1:14:33] Robert Duncan McNeill: So I was on uh I was originally a guest star um on The Next Generation, and then that's the one from the late 80s with Patrick Stewart.

[1:14:46] Ben Rimalower: That's the one with Patrick Stewart.

[1:14:48] Robert Duncan McNeill: I was a guest star in one episode, but it was a very popular episode, and they liked what I did, so they kind of brought me back. They renamed the character because they didn't want to pay the writer royalties, I think. Um but I came onto the show Star Trek Voyager in the Which is the one with Kate Mulgrew, Mel Groove, Robert Picardo, yep.

[1:15:10] Ben Rimalower: Um, and you were Lieutenant Tom Paris.

[1:15:13] Robert Duncan McNeill: Yes, I was for the fans listening, now they'll know. I was the pilot. I was the I flew the ship and I flew it for seven years.

[1:15:21] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:15:21] Robert Duncan McNeill: Uh played that role from ninety-four to two thousand one. And during that time I started directing television, which I had been wanting to do for a few years.

[1:15:29] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:15:29] Robert Duncan McNeill: And when the show ended in 2001, oh, here's another Broadway tie-in to all this. The show finished, and I was offered um to replace in cabaret on Broadway to play Cliff.

[1:15:45] Ben Rimalower: Oh wow.

[1:15:46] Robert Duncan McNeill: And I was gonna come in, they had offered me the role, the replacement to r take over because they were bringing in a new actress for Sally Bowles, who was older than whoever was playing it at the time. They thought I was more age appropriate, I guess. And for some reason, whoever was playing Cliff would not would not have been a as good a fit, and they wanted so they offered it to me. And I remember thinking I had never done a musical on Broadway. I'd done a straight play and I'd done musical on the road, but and they had actually offered me to take over, I think it was for Ben, I can't remember, um, in Into the Woods on Broadway.

[1:16:21] Ben Rimalower: Oh wow.

[1:16:22] Robert Duncan McNeill: And I couldn't do it after the tour, like a year later, or s maybe less, but they called me and said, Do you want to take over for Ben? Take over on the Broadway show, and I couldn't do it, and it really broke my heart. But yeah, 2001, Star Trek Ends, they asked me to take over in cabaret, but I had just started directing, and I had my first episode to direct Dawson's Creek.

[1:16:46] Ben Rimalower: Oh wow.

[1:16:46] Robert Duncan McNeill: And I was like, I I think my future is directing, and I can't do both. So yeah, I decided to uh to do that to take the the Dawson's Creek episode, which ended up being great. I ended up doing six or eight episodes for them over the next couple of years, and and that launched my directing career.

[1:17:08] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:17:08] Robert Duncan McNeill: But but that was the last opportunity I had to perform to 2001 in cabaret on Broadway. And I still to this day sort of, you know, wish I could have done it for a few months at least.

[1:17:20] Ben Rimalower: That would have been fun.

[1:17:21] Robert Duncan McNeill: Yeah. Well, listen, it's never too late. And there'll always be more productions of cabaret. Um and you congratulate.

[1:17:28] Ben Rimalower: You can play, you can play the old man, you know.

[1:17:30] Robert Duncan McNeill: Yes, exactly. There's still room to go. Um this has been so fascinating.

[1:17:35] Ben Rimalower: Oh, you didn't tell me about the podcast.

[1:17:37] Robert Duncan McNeill: Oh, yeah. I do a podcast for Star Trek. It's called The Delta Flyers, which is the shuttle that I designed on our show. The Delta Flyer was the name of it. But we have a podcast. Me and one of my castmates, we started rewatching and reviewing episodes of Star Trek, starting with our show, Voyager, and we finished that after three and a half years, all those episodes, and now we're on to Deep Space Nine, which was another um classic track show.

[1:18:07] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:18:07] Robert Duncan McNeill: And we've got a couple of those actors, uh Armin Shimmerman, who did uh who's been on Broadway. Um what did Armin do?

[1:18:18] Ben Rimalower: Oh, I'm trying to remember.

[1:18:22] Robert Duncan McNeill: Armin, my friend Armin, who does the Star Trek podcast with me now, did the Broadway musical with my roommate at the Whitby. I can't remember the name of it. It was a big flop. Um, but yeah, Armin.

[1:18:35] Ben Rimalower: Armin Shimmerman is Oh, I remember Mama.

[1:18:37] Robert Duncan McNeill: I remember Mama, that's it.

[1:18:39] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, it was the musical of I Remember Mama.

[1:18:41] Robert Duncan McNeill: Right. And Armin Armin was in it, and one of the kids was um my roommate at the Whitby. I'm spacing out on her name right now. I'm so bad.

[1:19:07] Ben Rimalower: No, was he in it?

[1:19:08] Robert Duncan McNeill: Yeah, he was in I Remember Mama. She might have been a standby, she might have been like a cover for all the kids. Um my god, why can't I remember her name? Anyway, she was in it with Armin and now Armin now do a podcast.

[1:19:21] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:19:22] Robert Duncan McNeill: And it's so it's called Delta Flyers. The Delta Flyers. Uh, we're doing Deep Space Nine now. Um, it's a great podcast for people who you know want to hear dive in deep to each episode of Star Trek, and we talk about behind the scenes and all kinds of fun things, and we have a good time.

[1:19:43] Ben Rimalower: It's been it looking back on Star Trek, because I I worked on three or four Star Trek shows between directing and acting. Looking back on them through this podcast lens reminds me of this of Into the Woods, like to kind of go back with a little distance and you kind of appreciate you know the your your podcast is amazing just to revisit some of my my friends and my castmates that were on Into the Woods with me.

[1:20:15] Robert Duncan McNeill: And um, and we did the same thing with Star Trek. We we go back and and uh Armin and Terry Farrell is also a co-host with us now. She, you know, they were on Deep Space Nine and kind of had issues with it back in the day, and now that they're looking back on it, both of them are starting to have this warm, fuzzy place where they're like, that was not a bad show. Like, oh, I remember that. And so these kind of you know, look backs are very uh very cathartic. They're very good. And and for the fans, I mean, they're like catnip, you know, they just know everything the way I do about into the woods, you know. Or you know, there's I mean, there's so many of these kinds of shows now. I remember there was one about Smash for a while. There's the office ladies. I mean, all kinds of people. We love our we love to go into the nitty-gritty.

[1:21:03] Ben Rimalower: Um, the Smash one. I would love to hear that because that was uh that was a crazy place.

[1:21:10] Robert Duncan McNeill: I bet.

[1:21:10] Ben Rimalower: I bet yeah, and you were you were doing uh the first season when things were it was a lot of drama, right?

[1:21:17] Robert Duncan McNeill: Yeah, recall. There was a lot of behind the scenes drama. I did the I did uh directed the episode the second to last episode of the first season. It was the it was the episode where they performed for the first time in Boston the whole show. So I had to do bits of numbers. I had to direct bits of numbers while you cut backstage and then back to the numbers, you know. There were so many numbers and so much so many. Yeah, it was big.

[1:21:47] Ben Rimalower: I love that show. You're making me want to go back and rewatch it. Um I think the first season was a lot of fun in a campy, you know, silly way. The second season, I feel like it tried to be important or yeah, edgy or it didn't, it kind of fell apart for me that second season.

[1:22:04] Robert Duncan McNeill: Well, uh, this has been amazing. It's so great to talk to you. I'm really grateful for all your time and walking down memory lane for me.

[1:22:12] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, it was fun.

[1:22:16] Ben Rimalower: Thank you for listening to Giants in the Sky: How Sondheim and Le Pine went into the woods on the Broadway podcast network. Look out for episode fifty-six with Judy McLain, replacement Baker's wife on tour.