This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Ben Rimalower: Broadway Podcast Network presents Giants in the Sky, How Sondheim and Lapine Went Into the Woods.

[0:05] Ben Rimalower: With me, Ben Rimalower.

[0:07] Ben Rimalower: Today's guest, Judy McLane, replacement Baker's Wife on tour.

[0:11] Ben Rimalower: Once upon a time.

[0:17] Ben Rimalower: Judy McLane played the Baker's Wife for the final six months of the original national tour of Into the Woods, having previously been a replacement in the role of Florinda. She is currently starring as Joanne in the National Tour of Steven Sondheim and George Firth's Company, directed by Tony Winner Marianne Elliott. Judy has appeared on Broadway in Chess, Aspects of Love, and Kiss of the Spider Woman, and for several years starring first as Tanya and then as Donna in Mamma Mia. She also toured in Big. Her off-Broadway credits include Johnny Guitar and Romeo and Bernadette, for which she won the Outer Critics Circle Award.

[1:07] Judy McLane: Having uh very early on toured uh in Into the Woods, and now to be touring in Company. Um crazy. I want to hear about that perspective, but just going back to the very beginning, I just wanted to get um, you know, uh where where were you um in in your career and in your Sondheim fandom?

[1:33] Judy McLane: You know, I know that at one point you did a production of Side by Side, but I think that was probably after you did Into the Woods.

[1:39] Judy McLane: Um yes, after, with Rob Marshall directing it.

[1:44] Ben Rimalower: Fabulous. Okay, so was Into the Woods your first Sondheim show?

[1:51] Judy McLane: Well, I mean, I had done, you know, a non-equity version of Sweeney Todd, and um, you know, some things, just concerts and things. Oh, did I no, not not before that. So I think it really was kind of my first professional show, uh but you had you had just done Chess on Broadway right before this.

[2:14] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[2:14] Judy McLane: And so yeah. And it was it was interesting because I could not get into the audition. You know, they were looking for Linda and Lucinda. That's what they were looking for. Five, eight, five, ten. And God bless her, Joanna Merlin. I love her dearly, but I didn't know her then, right? And so I couldn't get in. So uh I you know, I still hadn't established myself really at all, you know. So I went to an alarm call and I got there, and I think the sign up, oh people started, you know, that was when we signed, like signed up at like, you know, five in the morning or six in the morning, and I sat in line, and by the time I was going in, they were doing eight bars of music for this open call. Just getting them out, getting them in, getting them out.

And I knew I was really right for it. And I don't often do that, but I walked in the door, I said, I'm gonna sing a very short song, the best parts at the end. I hope you wait for it. And Joanna Merlin, God bless her, the whole, you know, a bunch of creatives were there. Sondheim was not there then. Um he was there at my callbacks, but uh and Jeff Saver, who I now I now adore, and all these, you know, musical directors. And she apologized in front of the whole group, saying, Your n your your your picture came across and I didn't really know you and I did not see you. Can you come back in you know, in two days and sing for us for the baker's wife, for Florinda and the understudy, I had to learn the stuff for the baker's wife.

[3:38] Judy McLane: Wonderful. Yeah, yeah. So that's it happened from an open call. And as is my first show. So that was interesting. So this was did you open the tour?

[3:49] Judy McLane: No, this was a replacement for Florinda. So I went in at uh I did with Cleo for a little while and then she left. And um I went in as Florinda. I think I actually joined them here. I'm in St. Louis right now, and I think I joined the company here as I'm talking to you. I think I'm realizing that's what where I joined them. How funny.

[4:10] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. So they was looking for a replacement for for her.

[4:15] Judy McLane: Yeah. And prior to that, because Chess was the same time that Into the Woods was uh the new show on the on had you gotten to see it uh on Broadway at all that season, or what was your awareness of it prior to getting involved?

[4:29] Judy McLane: Oh no, I absolutely loved it. You know, I remember seeing Joanna Gleason and being like, This is she is the best thing since life bread, you know, she was amazing in it. Yeah, you know, so it was a thrill to get to be part of that and to go to a callback and sing for Sondheim, and you know, it was it was remarkable. It was it was a very exciting time in my career, honestly, and it was fascinating because I went out and I've had such a full circle moment with Sondheim and with that show just recently. So I went out, I went out on the tour as Florinda, and I was going on the very first time as a baker's wife at the Kennedy Center.

[5:06] Judy McLane: Wow. Or I'll be in in a week. It's all just kind of memories, right? At the opera house, and I was going on for the very first time, a Saturday matinee, and I did the show with Stuart Zagnet, who was also an understudy. The two of us were on for that show, and we were there, and they brought in after the show, they brought in the fire curtain. Everybody's like, Oh no, we're closing, we're done. And in walked Steven Sondheim, who had just seen my very first matinee as the baker's wife. And the stage manager looked over me. She said, I turned white and just looked like pass out. Because all I could think was, Oh my god, I what what did I just do? You know, I had no idea. And we got to have note session with him and everything.

So I kept sitting there waiting for my notes, waiting for my notes, waiting for my notes. And we got to moments in the woods, which you know how many times you say that in the song. And he said, the word is moment, not moment. The word is moment, wow, not moment. I was singing just in the one peculiar passing moment. Which I always say to my students, sing it how you say it. Well, not in the case of Stephen Sondheim. It was moments, one peculiar passing moment. So um, that was my my note that I lived on for years from Stephen Sondheim.

[6:33] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Wow, wait, so uh, didn't was were you covering Mary Gordon Murray? Was she still there? Did she purposely call out so that you would be the one to face the wrath?

[6:44] Judy McLane: No, I actually I think as I remember it, it was a scheduled go-on. It was scheduled, she had the day. Yeah, I'm sure she was not happy, you know, but she was great. I loved her, but I'm sure she was not a happy person knowing that he showed up, you know.

[6:57] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah.

[6:58] Judy McLane: Um, and then in turn she left, and because of that, I took over.

[7:02] Ben Rimalower: Oh how wonderful.

[7:04] Judy McLane: Yeah, so it was because he came that day, which was really great, that I was allowed to take over the part.

[7:10] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, and so uh, did you ever wind up doing the show again later in in your career? It seems like you could have just slowly graduated through all the parts in that show.

[7:20] Judy McLane: Okay, so funny, right? So I ended up doing it many different places. Like I think I did it at Pittsburgh. Did I do it at Pittsburgh? Where'd I do it? I did it at Sacramento. I Pittsburgh. I did do it at Pittsburgh, I think. Um only a few times. But get this. So about two and a half, three weeks before uh Steven died, I was called to do a an honorary performance for Jonathan Tunick with a full orchestra at the Sharon Playhouse.

[7:48] Judy McLane: Wow. And to sing Last Midnight. And once again, I am on stage and it was the last song of the night, you know. And I'm on stage and thank God I said, please don't and nobody tell me if he's there. I knew Jonathan. I had got to work with Jonathan, which was the thrill too, you know, because we we did never really get to work 'cause Jonathan and I didn't have any interaction back then.

[8:10] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[8:12] Judy McLane: Um I did with Steven, but not not him. And um Yeah, I got to sing Last Midnight. I probably wanted the last people to sing it for him because he died a week later. So it was it was so cool and he showed up. Again, once again surprised me, and I didn't know he was there. So it was kind of pretty fantastic.

[8:33] Ben Rimalower: So wait, when you did it at like uh Sacramento and Pittsburgh and stuff, were were you were you the witch or the baker's wife, or did you

[8:33] Judy McLane: Oh always Baker's Wife. I've never done the witch. Only for him. I only sang Last Midnight last well, two years ago now. Um, yeah, that that for that concert. That was the only time. I'd love to do that role, but I just for some reason I never I've never, you know.

[8:56] Ben Rimalower: Well, I'm sure I'm sure when you finish in Company, you'll be getting lots of song time calls. Um It's been a year of Sondheim. I did putting together this year, I did Gypsy this year, and this. So it's like it's just odd, you know, how it all kind of comes around.

[9:11] Judy McLane: And how like how does I mean, you know, the difference between being in Into the Woods and being in Company must just be so many light years because of the the way the I mean Into the Woods is you know, even though it's dark, it's such a popular show with families and children and you know, um, and Company is really the opposite of that. Did does that affect how the show plays on the road?

[9:33] Judy McLane: Absolutely. It's incredible. Well, you know, back then I have to say, you know, people weren't aware of Sondheim like they are now.

[9:40] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[9:40] Judy McLane: Right. And so people had trouble with the second act on the road.

[9:44] Judy McLane: So well, the first act was great. We didn't really understand that second act, you know. Yeah, which I I mean, I'd rather have that instead of, you know, it was okay. It's like I love it or hate it, right? And we're getting because it is Sondheim, it's funny. Somebody said the other day, you know, all these other shows are getting, you know, they're selling out and they're getting their, you know, uh come their money the whatever you get the profits of from the house. And we're you know, we're not because we're selling and we're selling well, and the audience are standing and screaming, but we get some walkouts.

[10:14] Judy McLane: Wow. Um yeah. And in certain areas of the country, we're getting um, you know, butting up against gay marriage, which is like what are you in the 1900s? I mean Wow.

[10:31] Judy McLane: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. In Memphis, we had some woman go on Facebook and you know, I didn't drive an hour and a half to see two men kissing on stage. It's like, wait, what? What did she think she was saying? I don't know. Look it up. I mean, you know, so that's with that, it makes me so proud to be part of a musical that actually really makes people think, you know.

[10:52] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[10:53] Judy McLane: Um, and it's such a different different experience for me because the Baker's Wife was such a you know uh different part for me, right? And um, yeah, it's been it's been really interesting to see people's re and and to introduce Sondheim to people for the first time.

[11:08] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[11:09] Judy McLane: You know, some people have never heard it before, you know, Sondheim. They don't know. Often I'm in hotels and I'll say, Well, what are you doing? They'll say, What's that show? Well, what is that? I'll say, Do you know who Steven Sondheim is? No, you know, you heard of Sweeney Todd, you're sending the clowns, you know. I try to pick out anyone that's the most commercial thing. You know, because it's not um so it's interesting bringing it around country. I don't think people are that far certain cities they are. You know, Chicago was amazing, and they are standing and screaming. Some audiences really get it. They get it.

[11:40] Ben Rimalower: Well, I would imagine your audience, uh especially now with Company would just be like the ultimate like just musical theater, like uh die hards in each in each city.

[11:52] Judy McLane: Diehards and you know, I I love you know, we get the gay crowd, which is amazing, and we also get a very young crowd, you know, which I love. It's introducing some young people in it because Bobby is 30 and a woman. We get a lot of women in that age that are following the show, which is kind of cool, you know, that may not have known Sondheim before.

[12:11] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Had you ever done Company anywhere before?

[12:15] Judy McLane: Never.

[12:16] Ben Rimalower: Wow, never never a Marta or an Amy or anything.

[12:19] Judy McLane: Never. Never, never, never. My Sondheim shows were basically uh Into the Woods and Follies down at Signature.

[12:28] Judy McLane: Which I did, you know, Phyllis in that. Uh side, obviously. And Sweeney putting it together. I did putting it together right before this job.

[12:39] Ben Rimalower: Oh, it's perfect. Wait, did you sing The Ladies Who Lunch in Putting It Together?

[12:44] Judy McLane: Yes.

[12:44] Ben Rimalower: Perfect.

[12:45] Judy McLane: Yeah, it's right.

[12:47] Ben Rimalower: So it's great.

[12:48] Judy McLane: Yeah. Although you have to learn that what's that lyric change to Time magazine instead of life?

[12:56] Judy McLane: Yes.

[12:56] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[12:58] Judy McLane: Yeah. It's interesting that the show, I mean, it has sort of a more modern vibe now. I mean, I know it's updated anyway, but I think that it's like it's different orchestrations, right?

[13:08] Judy McLane: I think people take it as a modern piece.

[13:11] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I think so.

[13:12] Judy McLane: I think so. I mean, a lot of things didn't change really. The pronouns, obviously.

[13:16] Judy McLane: Yeah. But a lot of things, and obviously Bobby being a uh um female other than a man, but it's pretty true to the script. At least my lines and everything are pretty true. And a lot of the dialogue is true. There's some changes, but not a lot. You'd be surprised how it still stands up. George Firth, boy, I'll tell you. I don't think he ever got his due, really.

[13:36] Judy McLane: No, because he's pretty he's pretty brilliant. This book is amazing. Yeah, it's really more play with music, honestly. In a lot of ways. They always shoot the book writer, and you know, Marilee was always blamed on the book, but now it's having this great, great success. And you know, it's the same book. I mean, there it has been for a long time, and it's so good, you know. Um good. Yeah, how wonderful. A George Hurth, a George Firth tribute. I love it. Um, uh well, tell me other things about that, about that Into the Woods tour. Like it's such a because the show is so technical with all the special effects and everything, like I just it seems like that would be potentially a liability as opposed to you know on the road, yeah.

[14:27] Judy McLane: Yeah, I mean certain cities we had to you know are we cutting the tower here, you know, cutting down you know that's with everything here. This show that I'm doing right now, Company doesn't have a lot of that. We're it stays pretty much intact. But back then we had cut quite a bit, you know, the trees, how they came on and off. Technically, we had to modify it oftentimes, but um you know it's it's such a great I mean I guess people think it's a it's also for kids too. So that show in a different way was was different. But um the second act, like I said, was always probable. People didn't quite always go along with that. Yeah, you know. Um god, I don't know. It's so funny. Like I was thinking about it this morning, just the audition process and going in for it and then you know, getting to work with Steven on it.

Um briefly James come in and you know do our rehearsals, and you know, anytime we had brush ups or something, he would come in out in whatever city we were in. So it was great. I got to work with James for a little bit too, you know. But since I was a replacement on the tour, it wasn't that same experience, obviously working in a rehearsal situation, you know.

[15:33] Judy McLane: Um, but it was it was funny. Clear Lane did the show and then Betsy Jocelyn came in as the witch. Yeah. I think she took like 20 minutes off the show. Betsy was a such a brilliant witch, so funny. Do you know Betsy at all her work and yes? Well, I a little bit, and I got to talk to her for this podcast too. Oh good. And everybody that did the show with her on tour and on Broadway echoed exactly what you're saying. Everyone just thought she was. I mean, not obviously people loved Cleo and Bernadette. Yeah, yeah, different energy, totally different thing. But people really just talk about Betsy just being so funny and such a great singer and so wonderful. Funny, funny, funny woman. I mean, she was really funny.

She, you know, um, and Adam grew. I mean, there was a lot of people that just really went on to have lovely wonderful careers too after that. You know, I got to do with Doug Sills. Look at Doug now on right. Were you in it when Kathleen Roe McAllen was Cinderella? Or was she gone by the because I think Jill Geddes did a lot of the tour.

[16:40] Judy McLane: Jill, I think Jill did I mostly did it with Jill. Did I do it with Kathleen? I might have. I know I did Astrax of Love with that. That's what I was thinking. I wonder, um, you know, uh, it's funny, there seems like there have been years and periods when there's sort of like separate camps in the musical theater between the kind of Andrew Lloyd Weber talent pool and the Sondheim talent pool. And and and I was thinking about the two of you having done this, and you're someone who's clearly straddled, you know, you did aspects and you did chess, and I I know you were a Vita and you know, shows like that, but you also and you know, and Mama Mia, of course, I would maybe even put in that category. But then all this Sondheim stuff too, that you really been able to be on both sides of that.

[17:20] Judy McLane: I'm so grateful for that, honestly. I think I think when I got into Into the Woods, that was a kind of a major coup for me. Break into that, you know, coming out of Chess, Chess was so bashed by that. Was a time where the Brits were getting bashed. That's when when that was the year. But think of that year. What was on Broadway and nominated? We were up against it's Chess, Into the Woods, Phantom. Yeah. And Romance Romance. Right. What a year. Yeah. I mean, what a crazy, crazy year. But Chess did not even get nominated for book or score. It was really it was very sad. Even though it's such a beloved album, you know, and I mean all the albums have Chess, and it's been people can't let go of that musical. I mean, I know I can't. Robbie Marshall, I'll tell you, he did I did it with him at Paper Mill. He did an amazing, he directed it. Wow. Paper Mill. So I worked with Robbie like five times in one year, and he directed it at Paper Mill, and he really got it right.

[18:15] Judy McLane: That's interesting because I know that it originally was supposed to be Michael Bennett in London, and he had gotten sick, and Trevor came in, uh Trevor Nunn came in kind of halfway through the process. And then uh, but I was always curious what would a director choreographer do with that show. And I guess yeah, what what was Rob's production like? He concentrated on the love story. Really concentrated on the love story. He really, you know, uh with Trevor, it was hard because Trevor wanted like a movie, he kept saying he wanted a movie kind of version of it, and more about the espionage and the Russian thing. Whereas Robbie didn't concentrate on that at all, really. I mean, he put that he did, but he put it more to the side and concentrated on what the love story was.

And um it was marvelous, it really I think it worked so beautifully, you know, in the in his under his hands. Um he he didn't it wasn't like he put in a lot of crazy choreography, he did obviously the arbiter's number and things like that, but he really it really kind of for the first time when I was working with him, it is how his director chops really came into play.

[19:26] Judy McLane: Yeah, such a good director. Yeah, well that panned out. Oh, yeah, very well for him. Very well. Including on Into the Woods. Um are you are you you know, different people that have done the show have had different opinions about that movie. Are you a fan of that movie? You know what? I actually enjoyed it very much. Yeah. I did. I thought um Emily did a fantastic job of beautiful. Really, really great. Some of the some of the things obviously I wasn't a fan of, but but for the most part, um I thought it was well done, you know. Yeah, I did. Really did well, it's just so nice to have that these Sondheim musicals just have a wider audience, you know, out there. Yeah, especially Into the Woods. I mean, it's so accessible, I think. Yeah, and he made it accessible, which which is what we need to do with much of m so much of this, you know.

[20:18] Judy McLane: Yeah. It's it's bringing back memories. I just walked by the our mural at uh in the St. Louis Munich. You know, they do all these murals for all the shows. And it's kind of cool reliving my past a little bit with this tool coming through, you know. How wonderful. Yeah, all your all your previous haunts. Yeah. I mean, and then I got to do it. Stuart took over the baker too, and I got to do with him for quite a while, so it's just working like crazy all the time, you know. Yeah. Um he was great. He he took over at one point. Yeah, so it was a great, great group of people. John Hadley took over as the prince. Yeah. Really Tracy Captain was an amazing little red. She took over, and so the replacement cast was gangbusters on that show.

Yeah, yeah. Really close. Did I know Tracy did it a lot after the tour? Did you ever do another production with her? I think I did. I think I did with her and Jill, maybe at Sacramento. I think. Was that with Leslie One? Too bad then. I I in my career in did I do that show? When did I do that show? I can't even have things in my resume anymore because it's just too much, you know.

[21:29] Judy McLane: You just need a spreadsheet, just a spreadsheet. Where did I do this? Where was it? Exactly. Exactly. Well, like many times after, you know, I at Chess I did the same thing with Florence a lot of different places. So that was a nice thing. When you did the different Chess productions, were you did you wind up doing different versions of it? Where like we did a version of it at Sacramento that Leland Ball directed, and it went over so great, they brought it back the next season again. How fabulous. Yeah, it was kind of crazy. But um, yeah, that was that was a little bit crazy. Um they never do that, but they did. They it was such a big hit. You know, Leland. And it was all they love Chess. I love Chess.

I mean, it's still one of my favorite shows ever, you know. And it will come back. I'm sure it will come back again, and who knows what will happen. And I feel bad for Benny Bjorn because it it was devastating to them. Yeah. When I was working with them, you know, they didn't really understand the Broadway thing at that time, so it was you know, kind of stiff.

[22:32] Judy McLane: Yeah. Well, it probably made them appreciate the phenomenal success they had with Mama Mia, because they'd been through the ringer before. They were really dope through the ringer with that show. Yeah, and Tim Rice didn't quite get it. You know, I felt bad for them all, you know. Yeah, especially because it was such a big hit, you know. But you know, you c how could you go up against, you know, I understood, you know, Into the Woods um us and Phantom, and then Romance Romance, but you know for us not even be nominated for music when it was like this big album it didn't make any sense I mean I get it other than Sondheim of course right I mean I get that part of it Into the Woods is such an amazing score yeah truly what um what was your favorite thing in Into the Woods to sing oh god that's hard I love singing Justify the Beans that was so much fun yeah I bet it was so I love it was so much fun it was great to sing the duets great it takes to you know that's a beautiful moment in the show um I do this thing where I have to give my uh my uh my dresser in a show uh my shoe go I have to go on with one shoe on during this show anyway's like I need your shoe we pass it all the way back so a little little mon dog you know honor honorary thing to Into the Woods I love that pulling it in I could not I was on the road and Into the Woods and Aspects of Love came around and I knew at the time Anne Crumb who was a dear friend of mine um wasn't gonna do eight shows a week but but because of her injury in London I don't know if you remember that oh right something with her foot in the in the set in the moving moving yes and so she was coming over but she had had a lot of surgeries and it was really bad so they wouldn't say she was going to do two a week but I got offered to do her alternate while I was on the road with Into the Woods and I couldn't get out of my contract from Into the Woods because it was a they wouldn't put it I had to be out for a just a principal contract somewhere else.

[24:33] Judy McLane: And because they wouldn't put it in the contract for Aspects of Love, I couldn't get out of Into the Woods go to go do that to do two shows a week because they weren't gonna put it in the they did it eventually turned turned out that way. And I knew Ann wasn't going to because she told me that. Yeah. But which was fine. I couldn't leave Into the Woods, which which was okay, but it was it was kind of a catch 22. I was like, oh my god, I'm in this great show. But two shows on Broadway a week would have been really nice. Yeah. So that was kind of it was a it was a strange little thing, the twist that happened. But then you got there, was was that just later in the run when you went into Ax? But I didn't go in at the alternate.

I went in just as the understudy. I didn't even know that there had been an alternate. I guess because like you're saying, they didn't advertise that. Yeah, they didn't advertise it, but it was since the beginning, and I knew that was gonna happen. Did you ever do Aspects again after that? No. I guess they don't really that show doesn't get done very often. Ever. And I did what happened was I I did it for nine months, and I knew I wasn't it was a very strange thing going on there. And after nine months, I was like, I'm not doing the alternate, I need to get out. So I left. People were crazy, they said you're leaving a Broadway show. I said, Yeah, I'm done.

[25:44] Judy McLane: Yeah. I don't know what I went to, but I did go on to you know something else. Well, you listen, it seems like you always have. I mean, it uh you know, it's a long resume for a reason. You just worked and worked, and um I hope I get to see you on one of the closer to New York stops on the Company tour because I'm sure you're amazing. Thank you. I I don't know if we're getting much closer anymore. We did New Haven, we did f uh Philly, we go to Providence, that's probably the next closest we get. Yeah. We see next in a couple weeks, but yeah. It's been a really great. I mean, to be able to do this show this whole last year, after um, you know, having him pass and yeah, you know, uh and getting to sing for him right before was just uh just so thrilling. Honestly, and he couldn't have been sweeter.

[26:28] Ben Rimalower: Well, that was thrilling for you, and now you do stuff that is thrilling for us. So thank you.

[26:34] Judy McLane: Thank you so much, Judy. I really appreciate your time. And I know people will like to hear your stories, and uh I'll look I'll look forward to seeing you soon, if if not in Company, then in the next one. I love that.

[26:48] Ben Rimalower: Thank you for listening to Giants in the Sky, how Sondheim and Lapine went Into the Woods on the Broadway Podcast Network. Look out for episode 57 with Stuart Zagnet, replacement steward on tour.