This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Ben Rimalower: Broadway Podcast Network presents Giants in the Sky: How Sondheim and Lapine Went Into the Woods.

[0:05] Ben Rimalower: With me, Ben Rimalower.

[0:07] Ben Rimalower: Today's guest, Stuart Zagnit, replacement steward on tour.

[0:11] Ben Rimalower: Once upon a time.

[0:15] Stuart Zagnit: I replaced as the steward in the original National Tour of Into the Woods, understudying the role of the Baker.

[0:21] Stuart Zagnit: I also toured as Mendel in James Lapine and William Finn's Falsettos.

[0:27] Stuart Zagnit: I most recently appeared on Broadway in Harmony, also having been seen in the revival of Caroline, or Change, Newsies, The People in the Picture, Seussical, The Wild Party, and Those Were the Days.

[0:38] Stuart Zagnit: I also toured in Wicked, Dr. Seuss's How the Grinch Stole Christmas, Applause, Crazy For You, and Tin Types.

[0:46] Stuart Zagnit: Off-Broadway audiences have enjoyed me in numerous shows, including Lucky Stiff, Tony Kushner's A Dybbuk, Peacone Pie, and both the original and revival productions of Little Shop of Horrors.

[1:09] Stuart Zagnit: And what's interesting is as we speak, I am currently working with Chip Zien in Harmony, who was, of course, the original Baker in Into the Woods on Broadway.

[1:23] Stuart Zagnit: Our lives have sort of circled each other.

[1:27] Stuart Zagnit: I did the role he did in Falsettos, Mendel, the psychiatrist on a mini tour of Falsettos.

[1:37] Stuart Zagnit: We worked together in People in the Picture.

[1:43] Stuart Zagnit: We worked together in Caroline, or Change, and now we're working together in Harmony.

[1:48] Stuart Zagnit: It seems like roles that he has been connected with, I've also been connected with.

[1:56] Stuart Zagnit: Just very much like when I went to see Little Shop of Horrors, the original production downtown, and I actually saw it at the WPA when it was just a workshop.

[2:08] Stuart Zagnit: Wow.

[2:09] Stuart Zagnit: A friend of mine knew Ron Taylor, who was the original voice of the plant.

[2:13] Stuart Zagnit: I'm sitting there watching this show and I go, I have never seen a show like this.

[2:19] Stuart Zagnit: I love it, and I want to do the lead role.

[2:23] Stuart Zagnit: Five and a half years later, I had an audition for the original production at the Orpheum, and I was the last Seymour in the original production.

[2:37] Stuart Zagnit: I closed that show.

[2:38] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[2:39] Ben Rimalower: Okay.

[2:39] Ben Rimalower: So who was your Audrey in that closing cast?

[2:44] Stuart Zagnit: By that time, it was a woman named Kathy Malosh who had been the cover, and they promoted her.

[2:50] Stuart Zagnit: Wonderful.

[2:50] Stuart Zagnit: Ellen Greene had long been gone.

[2:53] Stuart Zagnit: Marsha, at that point, she called herself Marsha Skaggs, now she's billed as Marsha Waterbury.

[3:00] Ben Rimalower: Oh yes.

[3:01] Stuart Zagnit: Had done it.

[3:02] Stuart Zagnit: There were a few other people in between.

[3:04] Stuart Zagnit: Ron Taylor had come back to the show.

[3:07] Stuart Zagnit: He had left for a while, and I was then doing the show with him.

[3:12] Stuart Zagnit: Full circle, a year and a year and a half ago, I fulfilled my bucket list, which is I joined the off-Broadway revival as Mr. Mushnik, which I wanted to do for many years.

[3:30] Stuart Zagnit: I'm probably the only person involved with the original production who also did this revival.

[3:37] Ben Rimalower: So fantastic.

[3:41] Ben Rimalower: Well, it's like Into the Woods.

[3:43] Ben Rimalower: It's a show you can grow up with; there are parts at different areas of your life.

[3:49] Stuart Zagnit: I could not agree more.

[3:51] Stuart Zagnit: When I got cast, the tour had already been out for about six months.

[3:57] Stuart Zagnit: There was a casting call for the steward who covered the Baker.

[4:03] Stuart Zagnit: I went in for it, got it, and went out to join them on the road.

[4:08] Stuart Zagnit: I think they were in Detroit at the time.

[4:11] Stuart Zagnit: It was a wonderful company.

[4:15] Stuart Zagnit: For some people, my first week in the week that I was learning the show was their last week.

[4:23] Stuart Zagnit: The witch who went out was this wonderful jazz singer named Cleo Laine.

[4:31] Stuart Zagnit: Yes, who had also been in the original Edwin Drood.

[4:35] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[4:36] Stuart Zagnit: For my money, there isn't a better witch because Cleo had a voice that was unbelievable.

[4:48] Stuart Zagnit: There was, I think, the last midnight; she's the only person who was allowed to take a higher note.

[4:48] Stuart Zagnit: She's the only person that Sondheim gave permission for her to sing a higher note than he had written because she could, and she was so brilliant at it.

[5:04] Ben Rimalower: Where was the high note that she added?

[5:04] Stuart Zagnit: I, you know, you must know the song better than I do at this point, but there's one song where she just climbs into the stratosphere.

[5:19] Ben Rimalower: Was it for the end of the song on the boom?

[5:23] Stuart Zagnit: Yeah, it must have been, yeah, yeah.

[5:27] Stuart Zagnit: Which is, I guess, her version of "That's Incredible."

[5:34] Ben Rimalower: And so you did the show with Cleo for a week, and then Betsy Jocelyn after that was...

[5:39] Stuart Zagnit: Betsy took over, yes.

[5:40] Stuart Zagnit: The rundown was Ray Gill was the original Baker.

[5:47] Stuart Zagnit: The late great Ray Gill, Mary Gordon Murray, Chuck Wagner, Douglas Sills was Rapunzel's Prince.

[5:55] Stuart Zagnit: Nora May Ling was Jack's mother.

[6:00] Stuart Zagnit: Kevin Wright was Jack, Tracy Katz was Little Red, and of course, the best Betsy Jocelyn, and then I joined.

[6:08] Ben Rimalower: So who else left besides Cleo?

[6:12] Stuart Zagnit: Ray was finishing up; Cleo left.

[6:16] Stuart Zagnit: I don't know.

[6:18] Stuart Zagnit: That was probably it as far as the...

[6:20] Ben Rimalower: But when Ray left, who was the Baker after Ray?

[6:25] Stuart Zagnit: His understudy, who was a talented gentleman named Marcus Olson.

[6:31] Stuart Zagnit: Yes, who I had actually done children's theater with long before.

[6:36] Ben Rimalower: Had Marcus been playing the steward before you got there?

[6:40] Stuart Zagnit: Yes, he was playing the steward.

[6:41] Stuart Zagnit: So you replaced Marcus, and he replaced Ray.

[6:44] Stuart Zagnit: Yes, exactly.

[6:45] Ben Rimalower: And did Judy McLean come in together with you?

[6:49] Stuart Zagnit: I think she was already cast.

[6:51] Stuart Zagnit: I think she was already there, and Danette Cumming were two.

[6:51] Stuart Zagnit: Judy covered the stepsisters.

[7:01] Stuart Zagnit: Danette, I think, was one of the stepsisters.

[7:05] Stuart Zagnit: I'm blanking on some of that.

[7:09] Stuart Zagnit: It's a big company.

[7:10] Ben Rimalower: And Crosby was Cinderella's father.

[7:18] Stuart Zagnit: In life and in art.

[7:20] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[7:22] Stuart Zagnit: He had a whole second career because apparently he was a dentist, a retired dentist, who then went into show business and loved it.

[7:30] Stuart Zagnit: Rex Robbins was the mysterious man.

[7:30] Stuart Zagnit: You know Rex; he was one of the...

[7:40] Stuart Zagnit: I saw Rex in a few shows in Gypsy with Betty Buckley and a few other things.

[7:48] Stuart Zagnit: Wonderful.

[7:48] Stuart Zagnit: He was like the grand gentleman of the tour, and he apparently was diabetic, so what he would do is he would have a table in front of his dressing room filled with candy for everybody else.

[8:04] Stuart Zagnit: It's a tradition that I've carried on in other shows.

[8:04] Stuart Zagnit: I like to bring sweets and stuff because everybody loves snacks and things to get them through the show.

[8:14] Ben Rimalower: So did you... was all your rehearsal with the company on the road, like just a typical understudy rehearsal where they put in replacements kind of thing?

[8:26] Stuart Zagnit: Very typical.

[8:27] Stuart Zagnit: I worked with the stage managers during the day.

[8:29] Stuart Zagnit: Every night they let me sit in the pit, and I could watch the show from the pit.

[8:36] Stuart Zagnit: The first thing you said about Into the Woods is I have my personal feeling is that an audience gets to see about maybe 20, 25% of what the show has to offer.

[8:51] Stuart Zagnit: When you're doing the show and you're watching it and you're immersed in it, you find different moments that touch your heart.

[8:59] Stuart Zagnit: Yeah, every night.

[9:01] Stuart Zagnit: I would sit in the pit and usually, you know, be weeping in the pit because it just related to me, you know.

[9:11] Stuart Zagnit: I mean, also maybe my personal circumstances; I lost my parents very early.

[9:18] Stuart Zagnit: The parent-child theme that runs through it is very strong and very powerful.

[9:27] Stuart Zagnit: I really connected to that.

[9:29] Stuart Zagnit: In fact, I have a picture of me that I didn't send you of me with Cleo Laine, and the thing I noticed about her is that she reminded me of my mother.

[9:44] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[9:45] Stuart Zagnit: We never actually performed together, but I watched her entire last week of shows, yeah, and was just knocked out by her.

[9:55] Stuart Zagnit: We had a wonderful system on tour, which was they called it, um, you could request a performance by going to the person who regularly did the show and say, would you mind if I did such and such a show on such and such a day?

[10:21] Stuart Zagnit: So you were gonna be in like your hometown and you wanted your family to come see you or something like that.

[10:27] Stuart Zagnit: Well, yeah, they were never gonna come to sponsor New Jersey.

[10:30] Stuart Zagnit: I know that.

[10:31] Stuart Zagnit: So we were at the Kennedy Center, and I have cousins who live in Maryland, and they are frequent visitors to the Kennedy Center.

[10:40] Stuart Zagnit: So I said, okay, I'm gonna have a certain amount of an audience there.

[10:44] Stuart Zagnit: So I went to Marcus and I said, um, how would you mind if I took the last Saturday matinee at the Kennedy Center?

[10:51] Stuart Zagnit: Because I have relatives.

[10:52] Marcus Olson: Oh, sure, no problem.

[10:54] Stuart Zagnit: I'll, you know, I'll go to the movies.

[10:56] Stuart Zagnit: He and Mary Gordon Murray were an item.

[10:59] Stuart Zagnit: So they both took the show off, which is why Judy McLean went on that day as the Baker's wife.

[11:09] Stuart Zagnit: Besides being drilled, you know, by the stage managers, once I knew I had a date, I was just going and I was a machine just working on every moment of that show.

[11:22] Stuart Zagnit: I remember the day, the morning of that Saturday matinee, I got to the Kennedy Center so early that there was nobody there to open up the theater, so I had to wait until the stagehands arrived.

[11:45] Stuart Zagnit: The show finally starts, and you know, when the lights first hit you and you're standing in front of the house, I mean the music and everything, I was like in for a few seconds kind of like blinded, but then I went right into the cues, and mercifully I got all my cues right.

[12:05] Ben Rimalower: Amazing.

[12:05] Stuart Zagnit: Then I continued to sail through the show, and I don't think I could have asked for a better debut performance.

[12:15] Ben Rimalower: So you, at the Kennedy Center, there's a big curtain that drops, so the show's over.

[12:22] Stuart Zagnit: I am amazingly relieved.

[12:26] Stuart Zagnit: I got through, and it was really euphoric for me.

[12:29] Stuart Zagnit: The stage manager walks out from the wings, and he looks at us all and he goes, um, oh, there's somebody here who wants to see you, and he brings Stephen Sondheim out from the wings.

[12:43] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[12:44] Stuart Zagnit: Apparently, Sondheim had standing house seats for the tour.

[12:50] Stuart Zagnit: He would either give them to friends or maybe there were some relatives or whatever, or from colleagues, and the stage manager, it took him about half of the first act to realize it was Sondheim sitting in Sondheim's seat.

[13:06] Stuart Zagnit: He had the really good sense not to tell anybody.

[13:11] Stuart Zagnit: On top of going on for the first time in front of, you know, thousands of people, to know that he was there, I think would have just been a little more than I could have bared.

[13:22] Stuart Zagnit: I didn't know.

[13:24] Stuart Zagnit: One of the, uh, I think it was Danette Cumming turned to me on stage after the announcement was made, and she said, you are the luckiest son of a bitch I've ever met in my life.

[13:38] Stuart Zagnit: Sondheim stayed after, and he gave the company notes, and he gave me notes as if I do this every night.

[13:47] Stuart Zagnit: Wonderful. Uh and I was meeting my relatives at an Italian restaurant somewhere nearby, and I don't remember using my feet. I think I floated over to the restaurant. It was like the day could not have been more magical. And uh it just it's it's one of the greatest theater memories that I have.

[14:12] Ben Rimalower: I bet. Had you been the big Sondheim fan before uh Into the Woods came into your life?

[14:18] Stuart Zagnit: I think I was slow in getting there. I think because there was nobody like him, um Into the Woods totally changed my mind around. And then Sweeney Todd, you know, blew my mind completely. So I think from then on I I was a fan, but um, but Into the Woods touched me in a way personally that most shows don't. And um, you know, for that I'm forever grateful because and and and to this day, if I want to do a uh a ballad, and the one that I can really connect with immediately is it is um is anyone can whistle. And and I I did that show in college, and it was crazy and a mess, but I I love doing it, but yeah, that song just jumped out. I I didn't sing the song in the show, but it just touched me so much, and that's been like part of my repertoire.

[15:20] Stuart Zagnit: So let me ask you a question. Um in terms of the Sondheim of it all. I think maybe you're a good person to answer this for me to the extent that you you know have a take about it. Because you, you know, you've done bigger tours. I mean, you did Wicked on the road, you know. That's that's uh the you know huge mega musical, right?

[15:40] Stuart Zagnit: It is, and I did Crazy for You, the first one. Also a big production, you know. And um actually we I um I think I saw you in that. Did you do that at the Schubert in Los Angeles?

[15:51] Stuart Zagnit: Yes, yeah, I did with Kay McClelland.

[15:54] Ben Rimalower: That's right. Yeah, uh what what an amazing company, Jimmy Brennan, Karen Ziemba, K McClellan.

[16:02] Stuart Zagnit: Yeah. Can I tell you a quick anecdote about that?

[16:06] Ben Rimalower: Please.

[16:06] Stuart Zagnit: Naturally, when you're when you're in LA and you're you're at the Schubert there, every celebrity. Gene Kelly came to see the show. Donald O'Connor came to see the show. Um Ginger Rogers was at our opening night party in a on a table in the back. So one night after after a performance, I'm back in my dressing room, and it was a long corridor, and I hear voices, right? So I opened the door and there's Carol Channing, her then husband, yeah, and Betty White, right? And and she and she says to me, Um, can you tell me where where Jimmy Brennan's uh dressing room is? And I said, I said, Well, you see, he's right down the hall. And I just took a moment, I said, You probably don't recognize me. I was I was Zangler in the show, and she goes, Oh, you were so sexy up there.

And so, and which of course thrilled me. So she thanks me, and she and her husband and Betty start to leave, and Betty's the last one. She turns to me and she goes, Goodbye, sexy. And I was I was just in heaven because I've been I've loved Betty White all. I mean, that you could dine out on that story the rest of your life for sure.

[17:21] Ben Rimalower: Um, okay, I'm glad you told me that. Uh okay, but so there's two big, you know, they're very different, Crazy for You and Wicked, but they're both big musicals. Um and Into the Woods is this strange thing because these Sondheim, it's not even like it's Sweeney Todd or Follies or something. It's it's a Sondheim-Lapine musical, Sunday in the Park with George did not tour. Assassins did not tour. But Into the Woods went on tour. And I'm kind of trying to wrap my brain around what that was like bringing a show like this to um, you know, countries or uh cities across the country, and and you know, how does it play in front of those audiences?

[18:00] Stuart Zagnit: And um, someone that said something interesting to me. Um, I think Mary Gordon Murray said it, that um that James Lapine had a different take on the baker and the baker's wife for the road. That Mary Gordon Murray and Ray Gill were seen more as sort of um this kind of like middle American couple, as opposed to the kind of like New York Jews that Chip and Joanna had sort of made that.

[18:24] Ben Rimalower: Well, sure. When when you look at you looked at Ray physically, he was a big kind of uh not you know he wasn't obese, but he he had a kind of a a fullness about him, and he was larger, he was larger than anybody. He was he was lovely. Here I am, um, my first couple days, and we're all going back to the hotel, and I'm staying on a different floor, and I'm getting off, and and as I get off, Ray turns to me and he says, Don't date anybody in the show, and then the door's closed. Like he was giving me a word of advice, and what's funny is I had just started dating a woman that I met out here in Brooklyn. We had only been seeing each other about five or six, six or seven weeks, and I got the tour, and she goes, I'm never gonna hear from him.

And the truth is there wasn't anybody the the company had really uh they had all paired off, so there were no single people around, and I would call my my my girlfriend in New York uh almost every night after the show. And PS, after I left the tour, I came back, I moved in with her, and we've been married for all these.

[19:41] Ben Rimalower: Wow, see it's all thanks to Ray Gill.

[19:44] Stuart Zagnit: So Ray, thank you, Ray. Good advice. Um so okay, but like um that probably holds true even in a bigger c in a bigger company. But so what is it like to be on tour with this sort of, you know, as you said, Sondheim is different, you know.

[20:00] Stuart Zagnit: Yeah. I I would say from from my experience hearing those audiences, I think the show, I think the show worked on so many different levels. So if some people saw it as a live action fairy tale with different stories, because you can take Act One uh in its own sense, and and everything changes and deepens in Act Two. Yeah, but because people have been so entertained and brought into these characters, I think they were able to go along for the ride as the show got uh heavier and and I and either either they understood it all or they said this was this was delightful and this was fun. Because I never I never got a sense that the show wasn't playing well. It always seemed to do well in all those cities. And we were we were all over the place. I mean, I can't remember every every place we've been, but um we uh Detroit, we went down south. Was like Wicked, Wicked tours is all all over the world.

[21:09] Ben Rimalower: But interesting, because we think of Wicked as like, you know, really kind of like uh it has a pop fandom you know uh team girls and you know the uh all that kind of aspect of it um and of course it's based on the Wizard of Oz well I guess um Into the Woods is based on fairy tales you could argue that Wicked owes a lot to Into the Woods for sure because no one had tried this before successfully as Sondheim did and uh I wonder if if Into the Woods hadn't happened, you know uh who knows if Wicked would have ever happened.

[21:09] Stuart Zagnit: No truly I mean also all the Disney shows I mean I specifically think about Beauty and the Beast which was also uh costumes designed by Ann Hould-Ward it even looks like Into the Woods.

[21:56] Ben Rimalower: Yes well they did they didn't have Sondheim but they were blessed to get Howard Ashman yeah really he really reinvented Disney and took it to and you know and I'm blessed too because I have a handwritten note from Howard Ashman thanking me for for sending the show out on a high and it's one of my that's one of my treasured.

[21:56] Stuart Zagnit: I bet. So okay tell me what were the other cities after Detroit and DC that you played on this?

[22:18] Ben Rimalower: I could probably look it up so you don't have to kill yourself.

[22:26] Stuart Zagnit: Yeah it's it's hard because it was like a a few years ago but we um where did we go you could you probably could tell me um we did we did play uh I I have a thing that we played Stanford we we played Connecticut. We might have played the Schubert in um in Hartford, too.

[22:53] Ben Rimalower: So you started in Detroit. It looks like the next stop was New Haven.

[23:00] Stuart Zagnit: Well, okay, right. Then Pittsburgh.

[23:01] Ben Rimalower: Mm-hmm.

[23:03] Stuart Zagnit: Wilmington, Delaware.

[23:04] Ben Rimalower: Like, yes.

[23:04] Stuart Zagnit: In fact, that's where this poster is.

[23:07] Ben Rimalower: Oh, look at that.

[23:08] Stuart Zagnit: Wilmington, Delaware. Uh the Playhouse Theater. You know, that poster for the um Los Angeles uh engagement was on the wall in the music room in my middle school.

[23:20] Ben Rimalower: Oh, really?

[23:21] Stuart Zagnit: That's how I first heard about Into the Woods.

[23:23] Ben Rimalower: Wow. That's great. Um, okay, so uh what did I say? Uh uh DC at the County Center, then Dallas. Um San Francisco, Nashville, Boston, Hartford, like you said, Houston, Louisville, Philly.

[23:40] Stuart Zagnit: So you should know that I I didn't continue with the tour to I only did seven months. I sort of I think I think I just felt psychologically I it wasn't what I wanted to do. So I went I went home.

[23:51] Ben Rimalower: Um was that was there any issue with the producer of you making your that choice? Was there any pushback?

[23:56] Stuart Zagnit: Not not very much not really. I mean, they let me go. They hired somebody else to do that, and um.

[24:02] Ben Rimalower: Were you not worried anybody would like hold a grudge like Sondheim or anybody about that?

[24:10] Stuart Zagnit: Um I it didn't even occur to me because because I thought he was so far away from it. The fact that Lapine had said to me at rehearsal, he goes, I'm sorry you're leaving. You're s you're extraordinary. And I said, I said, Thank you. I said, I'm sorry, I'm leaving too. Because I because I just didn't want to continue in that position.

[24:31] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[24:31] Stuart Zagnit: I thought I thought I put my time in and it would have been yeah. And I think if if the show hadn't closed when it did, that might have happened. I imagine I might have been bumped up.

[24:40] Ben Rimalower: So yeah. Were you surprised it was closing? Was the perception uh that it would keep running that it was still a hit?

[24:49] Stuart Zagnit: Yeah I I I don't think anybody expected it to but I I you know you you know how long the Broadway show ran? I mean it was it was uh two uh uh it was two years two years um that was probably for a Sondheim show that was probably a good healthy run.

[25:06] Ben Rimalower: Yeah in those days.

[25:08] Stuart Zagnit: Yeah for sure. So I guess they figured well we have the tour. The tours seems to be going well.

[25:14] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[25:15] Stuart Zagnit: Um and and I and I I did I didn't work in any big shows for a while after that so um you know but I I I just took a shot at it. I I knew I was gonna I was not gonna be happy to just stay in that in that yeah position. Um but you know I like I said I did Crazy for You after that. Uh Wicked was it was a a fabulous tour to do. I love I love doing the Wizard. Um that's that's the last national tour. And you know and I and I then I piled up some Broadway credits which I'm very happy about.

[25:52] Ben Rimalower: So would you do you like touring if if Harmony goes on the road would you do that?

[25:57] Stuart Zagnit: Um you're not the first person to I I would say would I would have to know what the terms are.

[26:04] Ben Rimalower: Sure sure.

[26:04] Stuart Zagnit: If they're if they're gonna do this as a cheapo C the tour um I've had those class A national tours. Yeah and I would say I put my time in learning because I'm 'cause I'm standing by for a chip now. Yeah. And I and I have really nothing to do in the ensemble. Um and that was a lot of work and and I would love the opportunity. But but also it takes its toll when I'm when I'm not home. You know, we we have a house all out. I mean I my our son is twenty seven years old and he's independent. But, you know, my wife has to run the house by herself and she's got a business and she's uh she's a children's book author and so I'm I'm not happy on the road anymore, you know.

[26:55] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[26:55] Stuart Zagnit: It's it's it's very different at this point in my life. So it it ha the condition would have to be something I really couldn't turn down, you know.

[27:03] Ben Rimalower: So then aside from your own personal choice, uh, in terms of with Harmony, you know, or whatever comes next. Uh just for some of my listeners who may not know the ins and outs of it, how does it compare a class A tour to like a tour done on the cheap? Like what are the things that that differentiate that for the actor?

[27:23] Stuart Zagnit: Um, well, I I don't think I've been on those other those other tours.

[27:29] Stuart Zagnit: I mean I've been very lucky. But one thing in all the tours I've been on, you can always bank your salary check and live off your per diem. Now times have changed. And hotels and whatnot are not as affordable as they used to be. So the economics of it is different. And the question is I can't what I can't afford to do is leave town and do a break even tour. Because I'd rather take my shot at living at home. To come back with nothing in the bank makes no sense to me at all. Yeah, I guess for kids that are building their resume and want credits, maybe that's a different thing, but it there's no way that it works economically for me. You know the difference is just the pay the product. It's mostly money. It's a question of how many cities are you flying to as opposed to getting on the bus and doing that. You know do you have to bunk up with people? You know I can't I can't do roommates anymore.

[28:35] Ben Rimalower: No did you have a roommate on the Into the Woods tour?

[28:42] Stuart Zagnit: Only briefly. One city I wound up sharing a room with Douglas Sills.

[28:47] Ben Rimalower: Oh what was that like?

[28:49] Stuart Zagnit: It was a riot. He's funny and I've you know I've known him for a long time and we kinda laughed about it, you know. This one city where I can't even know why it worked out that way. But you know I just everybody likes their privacy. You know it's like so I but it was only like maybe a week or so. It wasn't terrible.

[29:12] Ben Rimalower: And were there times where the Into the Woods tour went by bus?

[29:18] Stuart Zagnit: Um I think so but that's only if they were a certain amount of miles. I mean yeah even Wicked if it was only two hours or three hours we would do that. But it was rare. You know, we flew and I was able to my the deal I made with my wife was that if when we changed cities, I would fly home on my own, stay the extra day and a half in New York, and then fly myself to the new city for sound check.

[29:52] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[29:52] Stuart Zagnit: So that worked out for me, you know. And then I just ship my luggage to the next city.

[30:00] Ben Rimalower: I'm glad you brought up sound check because I'm curious about this in terms of being on the road. Like, um, if you're in a Broadway show um and you're one of the principals in the cast, you conceivably don't go to rehearsal, you just do the show eight shows a week or and then um the understudies have their what is it twice a week or however many days a week that they're called for rehearsing the roles that they you know need to stay fresh on because they're not doing students a week. And then I know that when replacements are coming in, they can use the understudy rehearsals as extra time for the replacements to practice.

[30:34] Stuart Zagnit: Right, right. But if you're on the road, are you saying that the principals in the first day in the city have to do a sound check in the space? So that's an extra piece of labor there.

[30:44] Stuart Zagnit: Wicked did that no matter when we got to a new city because that because the acoustics could have a very drastic change. And they had a ritual, and then when you're the first, it's your first time with the company, they didn't they videotape your sound check and sort of give it to you as sort of like, you know, they celebrate it, which was very nice. But yeah, everybody showed up at three o'clock in the afternoon on if our first show of the week was a Wednesday, and did the sound check, then you go have dinner and come back and do the first show.

[31:22] Ben Rimalower: Is the sound check a full tech run through?

[31:25] Stuart Zagnit: Um, no. All you're doing is just a snippet of a bit that you would do in the show. So I would do a little snip of wonderful, you know, that led up to the song, and they'd say, okay, fine. Well, once the sound guy was satisfied.

[31:41] Ben Rimalower: And is that because nowadays the sound is such an elaborate technological feat, and in the old days it was just more basic, how you were mic'd and everything?

[31:52] Stuart Zagnit: Yeah, I think it's much more technically complex. So I think there's a lot more it has to be it. I do have one related story because also when you get there for the first time in the new city, they give you a tour because your dressing room is in a different place and entrances are different.

[32:12] Ben Rimalower: Of course, yeah.

[32:12] Stuart Zagnit: Right? So we're I think we were in I think it was Dallas, and Nora May Ling, who Mace Recipes was one of the funniest human beings on the planet, and she was a brilliant Jack's mother. So and people know her because she was on the Forbidden Broadway Volume 2 cast recording, so fabulous as Patty Lapone and the original from Broadway people, and we had such the best best time together, and I miss her terribly. So we had I think we got into Dallas, and it was a big theater, really big theater. And we do it, we check out the entrance and accents. So the show starts, and Cinderella comes out, and she's supposed to run into Jack's mother in the woods and they have a scene. Well, it was like Spinal Tap.

Nora could not find the entrance to the stage. And Cinderella um did kind of the entire scene filling in lines that would have been Jack's mother, like that. And literally Nora never made that scene at all. It was just the two of them, and it tried to be a monologue, and we howled because she couldn't find her entrance.

[33:32] Ben Rimalower: And was that Cinderella Kathleen Rome McAllen?

[33:36] Stuart Zagnit: Um no we had well we had Jill Jill Gettys.

[33:42] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[33:42] Stuart Zagnit: That she was the one that but why is that name is very familiar to me too.

[33:47] Stuart Zagnit: Um I think she opened the tour, but maybe she was gone too early.

[33:52] Stuart Zagnit: Uh yeah but Jill Geddies was our Cinderella.

[33:57] Stuart Zagnit: And she also had a great sense of humor.

[33:59] Ben Rimalower: Yeah wonderful sense of humor.

[34:01] Stuart Zagnit: Yeah.

[34:02] Ben Rimalower: Well that's good for Cinderella.

[34:04] Stuart Zagnit: Um well and tell me about those rehearsals um on the road because um you only covered the baker, right? You were j you were the steward and you covered the baker.

[34:15] Stuart Zagnit: Well I'll tell you a secret.

[34:16] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[34:17] Stuart Zagnit: My I was like second and third cover for Cinderella's father and Mysterious Man. But all I wanted to do was the baker. So one time because the stage manager said, you know I like I like to spend us uh you know spread the money around so when you get a little bump, you know, uh you know I like to give people equal time when they when they get to go on and it's good time for you know get the experience. So he one time he asked me and I go, no that's okay. I give it to somebody else. I only wanted to the baker and mercifully that's the only one I had to go on. Mysterious Man would have been fun. But I was way too young at those in those days anyway for it.

[35:03] Ben Rimalower: And so with these understudy rehearsals, would you do the whole run of the show with um different pe I mean because I you don't have enough understudies to fill out the entire cast right double.

[35:15] Stuart Zagnit: It it's kind it's kind of the way we do it here in Harmony. It's like you do bits and pieces. Yeah where where you have group people on stage and I mean Harmony has six harmonists, but when they do when we do an understudy rehearsal, we rarely have six guys to fill in. So the swings are sometimes literally doing two roles at the same time.

[35:38] Ben Rimalower: And is that with just piano?

[35:40] Stuart Zagnit: Just piano, yeah.

[35:41] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[35:41] Stuart Zagnit: And would that be someone that's in the pit normally or something?

[35:45] Stuart Zagnit: Yes, we are it's uh we have two um there's an assist assistant conductor and there's another uh pianist who travels with us and had he played all the rehearsals, so yeah we keep everybody busy in that uh in that uh circumstance.

[35:45] Ben Rimalower: So Yeah.

[36:05] Stuart Zagnit: Um Yeah, I I think I think it's there's always a little bit of improvisation with the understudy rehearsals. But, you know, I I did get actually a formal put in for Harmony and and because when I knew I put the request in, then I was really for into the woods, I knew I was drilling, you know, I I already had a goal in mind, so yeah.

[36:29] Ben Rimalower: It's amazing when your mind is set for something, what you can accomplish.

[36:34] Stuart Zagnit: Yeah.

[36:34] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[36:35] Stuart Zagnit: That's showbiz.

[36:36] Ben Rimalower: Um and so tell me uh over the years have you seen other productions of Into the Woods? Have you seen the movie?

[36:41] Stuart Zagnit: I saw the movie. I went going, uh I don't know if I'm gonna like it, but I did like the energy and and I will say the moment it started with the bump bump bum bump bum it just drove itself. Yeah, it brought me back to the feeling of what that felt like being on stage because when that orchestra kicks off, it's really exciting.

[37:07] Ben Rimalower: I'd say I don't know, had did you like the movie?

[37:09] Stuart Zagnit: I mean, I thought it was Yeah, I loved it. I mean, I I thought the way they handled the wolf was not great, although I didn't have a better idea myself. I just knew that one was bad.

[37:18] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[37:19] Stuart Zagnit: But um, but I loved it. I thought I thought the cast was great, and I um I was so happy that it was so elaborate. I mean, it was so wonderful to Jack climb an actual beanstalk and be an actual kid, you know.

[37:32] Ben Rimalower: Absolutely.

[37:33] Stuart Zagnit: I do have one criticism, which is they shortchanged the father and son mysterious man, and I thought that was that was the one thing that I missed terribly. Truly, it's I mean arguably the best song in the show, you know. It's a real loss to have that not in the film. And I think because you have Meryl, you know, doing the doing The Witch, I think there was just a focus on the mother-daughter thing.

[38:01] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, but boy, I could it would have been so wonderful if that was in there too.

[38:06] Stuart Zagnit: Totally.

[38:07] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[38:07] Stuart Zagnit: Um, well, maybe maybe there'll be a remake nowadays everything gets made and remake and remade.

[38:12] Stuart Zagnit: Yeah, yeah, at least three or four times.

[38:14] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[38:16] Stuart Zagnit: Um, I mean, would you say that, you know, we've seen now Into the Woods is such a um like a you know, really um a staple of the canon? I mean it's it's in some ways the go to Songtime show for especially for the younger generations. And um, you know, would did you see that at the time that it would have that place kind of in Broadway history, or was that more of a surprise?

[38:45] Stuart Zagnit: Never never imagined it. I thought it was wonderfully audacious of him to take Grimm's fairy tales and musicalize them in the way that he did. But what I will say is that the theater audience has matured up to Sondheim. He was so far ahead of everybody else that maybe he knew eventually, maybe I I could think that maybe he would think well, maybe in my lifetime I you know I won't get recognition, but it sure is happening now, and not just because he passed away, I just think it's because he's left us such a rich tapestry and variety of theater, musical theater in a way it's never been before, and and he's got no equal. There's nobody like him, you know. So he's only grown in stature for me.

[39:46] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[39:46] Stuart Zagnit: Um did you have any more interactions with him over the years?

[39:50] Stuart Zagnit: That that was it. That was still that I and I I wish I had other ones. Um he certainly he certainly got around a lot.

[39:59] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, but how about with Lapine after that that nice compliment he gave you?

[40:03] Stuart Zagnit: We we bumped into each other once in a while, and you know, we we know each other to say hello, but I but I haven't seen him in a while. He's he's threatened to come to see Harmony before it closes. I don't know if he's gonna get there or not, but um yeah, I I like James Lapine a lot, so it's like I would love to work with him again.

[40:24] Ben Rimalower: Well, it's not too late, that's for sure.

[40:26] Stuart Zagnit: It's not, that's true.

[40:28] Ben Rimalower: So, alright, well, I'll be hoping for that then.

[40:30] Stuart Zagnit: But in the meantime, thank you so much for this, Stuart.

[40:33] Stuart Zagnit: Sure, I hope this was uh, you know, a game of another little perspective. I'm getting the oral history. Everybody has their own their own corner that they can flush out for me.

[40:47] Ben Rimalower: Thank you for listening to Giants in the Sky, how Sondheim and Lapine went into the woods on the Broadway Podcast Network. Look out for episode 58 with Tom Galantich, replacement prince on Broadway.