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[0:00] Ben Rimalower: Once upon a time.

[0:04] Ben Rimalower: Broadway Podcast Network presents Giants in the Sky.

[0:08] Ben Rimalower: How Sondheim and Lapine Went Into the Woods with me, Ben Rimalower.

[0:12] Ben Rimalower: Today's guest, Howard McGillin.

[0:15] Ben Rimalower: Two-time Tony Award nominee Howard McGillin played Cinderella's Prince and the Wolf in the Playwrights Horizons workshop of Into the Woods. He is featured in the current Broadway revival of Parade, and his previous credits include Sondheim and Lapine's Sunday in the Park with George and the Goodman Theater and Kennedy Center productions of Sondheim's Bounce, as well as The Mystery of Edwin Drood, Anything Goes, The Phantom of the Opera, She Loves Me, The Secret Garden, Kiss of the Spider Woman, and Gigi.

[0:51] Ben Rimalower: Do you even know this website? It's like O-V-R-T-U-R.com. It's like a weird database that has like, it's kind of like the IBDB with all the Broadway credits, but it also has...

[0:58] Ben Rimalower: Oh cool. This has the Playwright's Horizons Into the Woods and stuff, regional productions. Um I should say that um the James Lapine book on Sunday in the Park with George, Putting It Together, I loved that so much. And uh it made me hunger for that kind of granular uh chronology of the Genesis of Into the Woods, and he said he's gonna write one. So um he would generously talk to me, and other people have talked to me, and it's amazing how little, because it's pre-internet. There's so there's so many things that are still now after you know weeks of uh been to the uh library once already, and I've talked to all these people, and I still don't have all the answers I want. But maybe you're my holy grail, Howard, because I'm very excited to see on the overture site that you were uh I guess it just says one of the princes.

[1:57] Howard McGillin: Oh no, it says Cinderella's Prince.

[1:58] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I was Cinderella's Prince and the Wolf.

[1:58] Howard McGillin: And the Wolf.

[2:02] Ben Rimalower: Oh, I don't, I guess there was a lot, a lot of you were wolves in that incarnation, right?

[2:06] Howard McGillin: But you were the real wolf.

[2:08] Ben Rimalower: You sang "Hello, Little Girl."

[2:09] Howard McGillin: Yeah, it started out as Cinderella's Prince also played the Wolf and sang "Hello, Little Girl." That was how it started anyway. And then they came home to that. But so this was the June '86 workshop at Playwrights Horizons.

[2:24] Ben Rimalower: I'm so glad you clarified that for me because you know, my brain at this point, there are so many cobwebs.

[2:31] Howard McGillin: We're gonna get through those cobwebs, Howard. You're my hope. I was uh well, I was trying to kind of piece together the chronology of it because it always a kind of a jumble of things. Thankfully, I was very busy almost instantly hitting the ground in New York. And so uh I uh I was trying to remember exactly when the Playwrights uh version was, but you're saying June of '86, and that makes sense. So I know the first thing you did was La Bohème, which we discussed was at the end spot where that's before you went into Sunday in the Park with George. And the through line with La Bohème to Into the Woods was Michael Starobin who did the orchestrations for both.

[3:15] Howard McGillin: And uh just backing up just a bit, I was in LA and I had just kind of had my fill of knocking around Hollywood trying to get a career going. I'd actually done okay. I'd done, you know, a series of television things, and uh, but I wasn't singing a note and I hadn't been on stage in years, and I just thought this it's now or never. What am I doing? You know, um I knew that I could sing. I just didn't know if it was Broadway worthy or not. I just remember sitting at home really you're you were like I can sing, but I'm not sure if I've got a like a real like first world voice. I mean who knows, you know, you I when you're just starting out, I I knew that I could sing. I just didn't know whether or not other people would say that's I want to hire that person.

Uh I did know that one thing that I wanted to do was get my face in front of Joseph Papp and the Public Theater. And 10 days after I got to New York, they were casting La Bohème with Linda Ronstadt, a new English language version of the musical. And I had just so happened to have started studying voice again in LA before I left with an kind of opera trained and very kind of opera-centric uh teacher named Dean Behrens who said, Um, you should sing opera. And I was like, I don't know anything about opera. So I started studying uh Arias, including "O Sole Mio." And next thing I knew, I was being asked to sing it in English. So the leap wasn't that huge. And uh like 10 days after I got to New York, I was hired to be in this fantastic production at the Public with Linda Ronstadt directed by Wilfred Leach, God rest his soul, who really gave me my start. That production was the follow-up to the success of the Pirates of Penzance that they had.

[5:12] Ben Rimalower: Exactly.

[5:12] Howard McGillin: Yes, it was the same thing.

[5:16] Ben Rimalower: I had not seen it on TV, no.

[5:19] Howard McGillin: No.

[5:19] Ben Rimalower: I just read all about it and heard the recording and was just that that just seemed like something I was just dreaming to do. And suddenly I was cast in this production and Michael Starobin one night came backstage, long story short, or long story even longer, came back and said, um Mr. Sondheim is in the house tonight. And I said, Why did you tell me that? It was, you know, of course, everybody's dream to be in a Sondheim musical. That was why I came to New York. I wrote him the gushiest four letter as every young guy does, and you know, and gal, I guess, uh does when they're coming to New York, and he wrote me back and said, you know, look me up when you're here, you know, like what?

[6:10] Ben Rimalower: Had you seen any of his shows or done any of his shows, like in college or high school or anything?

[6:16] Howard McGillin: Like I mean, I in high school, I grew up with the Follies cast album.

[6:22] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[6:23] Howard McGillin: It was like the thing that everybody was just raving over. This is just, you know, it was groundbreaking and it was everything.

[6:31] Ben Rimalower: It was everything. So was Sunday in the Park with George open yet when you were doing La Bohème?

[6:32] Howard McGillin: Sunday in the Park with George was open. Not only that, I was sitting at home in LA just that prior Tony's watching the Tonys and seeing the production of Sunday in the Park with George. I think they did "Sunday" as their member. And I just thought, okay, I have to go. I just this is ridiculous. Get to New York. And next thing I knew, I was I was in Sunday in the Park with George on Broadway. That's how that happened. It was that fast. It was La Bohème in the fall of '84. And uh, and Michael came back and said, Mr. Sondheim's in the house. And I was such a basket case through the entire show, thinking nothing but what does he think of me? What you know ridiculous things that actors go through when they're told someone is in the house.

Turns out he wasn't there. He had he had some kind of conflict or something, and he wasn't able to come. So then, like a week or so later, again, knock on my dressing room door before the show, Starobin again saying, uh, Mr. Sondheim's here tonight. And I said, Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not going through that again. So thank God I didn't, and I actually had a pretty good show. You know, I wasn't concentrated on Stephen Sondheim the entire time. But um, sure enough, I got an invitation to audition for Sunday, and uh I understudied George for my first Broadway show and played the soldier.

[8:06] Ben Rimalower: And you played uh Bob Westenberg.

[8:09] Howard McGillin: Yes.

[8:10] Ben Rimalower: It was a well Bob had had taken over as George.

[8:14] Howard McGillin: Right.

[8:14] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, it was a a limited run for me because I had already been hired to play uh John Jasper in the park in Drood again with Wilfred Leach. I need to say that he gave me my career in New York. He really did. First La Bohème, and then following it up with my very first uh original Broadway show, which was uh which was uh Drood, which followed Sunday in the Park with George. Wasn't a bad start. I mean within a year, within a year. It was insane. And so uh you get to go into this show that like was like a siren song calling you to New York, and you have a limited run because you go into the show that really puts you on the map, Mystery of Edwin Drood, you get nominated for all the awards and the show uh moves to Broadway from the park.

[9:07] Ben Rimalower: Correct. So at what point in that did you become aware that there was a new Sondheim-Lapine collaboration?

[9:14] Howard McGillin: Yeah, I was trying to think, I I don't remember exactly uh how or when, but I was I was suddenly asked to do this workshop of Into the Woods. Uh and it must have been in the in the spring of '86. Um we had done Drood. Drood opened uh I wrote it down because I was trying to remember where it where it happened. Uh Drood was in the park uh in '85, so it must have opened in October of '85. Well that was No, that was two years later. I Drood opened on Broadway. Yes, I'm mixing up I'm mixing up anything that was in Drood. Yes, so Drood opened in uh the park in '85. It was the spring of '86 that the run of Drood on Broadway. Now I had done this is not incidental, I had done Follies in concert right that fall.

So I had all so and it was a little bit of a little bit, it was a lot of hubris on my part that I got into Follies. Uh I was sitting backstage with James Lapine before uh an understudy rehearsal that he had come to to give us notes uh on our Sunday in the Park, right? Now as I was understudying George. And I said to James, I am not kidding you. Have you have do he because James was not involved with it with the Follies in concert. Yeah, do you know if they've if they've cast their young Ben and young uh buddy? And he said, No, but that's a good idea. And it was literally James's uh lovely, lovely generosity that he said to Steve, what about Howard for one of the guys? One and I was cast as young man.

Yeah. Offered that, and and that uh of course was the most I thought I thought I'd already had the most amazing, you know, a couple of months in New York, but then then to follow it with that Follies in concert, where I've never in my life experienced anything like that crowd response in what was then Avery Fisher Hall. Yeah, to the s the stomping of feet when the when the orchestra started.

[11:29] Howard McGillin: I mean, I can't even begin to describe that feeling of the rush that we all felt up there on that stage. Um, but so I guess, you know, I guess I did okay that that that Steve and and James said, well, how about Howard for one of the princes?

[11:45] Ben Rimalower: So I'm curious because I know prior to that June of 86 workshop at Playwrights Horizons, there was at least one reading at playwrights before that. Is it possible were you possibly it might have just been like a one day no music kind of like table read thing, but I have a feeling that's what it was because I remember so clearly the first day of the playwrights uh workshop that I was in involved in when Steve sat at the piano and played and sang.

[12:20] Howard McGillin: He played and sang for us the entire score. Wow. And I I I I'll never forget it. Uh for many things. Among them, the dirtiest version of Hello Little Girl I've Ever Heard in My Life was sung by the master, who, of course, in his key was like down here somewhere.

[12:40] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[12:41] Howard McGillin: Like I could never sing that low. But I nor could I ever make it sound as as dirty as it did with Steve. It was a delicious. I know it's a it's politically incorrect for me to say it, but it was artistically one of the most amazing moments. Uh, you know, I guess, you know, it was it was just wow.

[13:00] Ben Rimalower: Well, he's the big bad wolf.

[13:02] Howard McGillin: The production's not uh espousing uh child abuse, you know.

[13:06] Ben Rimalower: Exactly.

[13:06] Howard McGillin: Thank you, Ben. Yes, exactly. Uh yes, and to know that I was gonna actually sing that song in the workshop was just oh my god, delicious. I mean, uh other people have talked about that too. I I second only I think to um people talking about Fred Ebb singing Liza with the Z.

[13:24] Ben Rimalower: Have I heard people describe the composer owning uh or you know not the well, Fred Ebb's not the composer, but you know, the writer.

[13:32] Howard McGillin: Um, uh do you remember anything specific about the way he did it that was so dirty or so funny?

[13:39] Howard McGillin: I mean, you know, just just the growl of his of his voice in that register, which uh just it it was the wolf came to life in in a way that I've never ever heard it since. Uh, you know, um and it was something that something to aim for as a as a young actor to try to somehow capture any of that.

[14:02] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[14:03] Howard McGillin: It's just uh I I find myself right now talking to you, trying to trying to speak in a lower chamber, you know, because he he just captured it. It was just incredible. Just incredible.

[14:16] Howard McGillin: Um but you know, it was it was a magical week at at playwrights where every day I remember him coming in the next day or maybe a day and a half later and saying, uh come over here, I want you to hear this.

[14:29] Howard McGillin: And he sat down and played me Agony. And you know, and it was Patrick Quinn was playing the other prince. And and we we stood there and and started to learn agony from from Steve. I mean, uh, come on. It was just great. Just great.

[14:47] Ben Rimalower: And so uh, well, so you had your two big songs as the the prince and the wolf in that incarnation already formed. I understand that the opening number was was pretty much what it became.

[15:00] Howard McGillin: It was and uh what what else do you remember about about the material from that incarnation?

[15:09] Howard McGillin: Well, uh, you know, for someone who had had loved and adored and worshiped this this writer, this amazing master, for so many years before I got to New York, to be in the room with him and to and to be hearing these songs for the first time that it, you know, that anyone had heard them and and and share in this kind of collaborative spirit of putting a new musical on its feet for the first time.

[15:36] Howard McGillin: It I that's that's my general kind of wide swipe at it. Um I I just I I just had to pinch myself a a hundred times during that week to to think that I was I was actually you know invited to be in a part of this this inception of it.

[15:55] Howard McGillin: Um then it we had I was still doing I still have my day job I was still doing and uh I think another year went by maybe part of a year went by before they were taking it to San Diego and I I'm jumping ahead but I I uh I was not I was asked to go to San Diego with it and I and I I was happily employed in in Drude and and with two small children to you know to raise so I I stayed um and and I was very flattered when it came to Broadway they did ask me to play the wolf and and in Cinderella's Prince and I I had been offered anything goes ah and it was one of the most tortured decisions in my life to be offered both of those roles at the same time and uh and uh I I decided to do anything goes and I still to this day wonder if I made the right decision but what are you gonna do?

[15:55] Ben Rimalower: What are you gonna do?

[16:57] Howard McGillin: Why do what what did put you over the edge to choose anything goes uh the joy involved with anything goes was so infectious and I also felt I think I think I felt that that particular era that anything goes was was set in was just like target for me in terms of in terms of what I present who I who I present as an actor and and uh you know it just seemed like I mean I'm I I think I should be playing this part.

[17:32] Ben Rimalower: I don't know.

[17:33] Howard McGillin: Well, I I mean I would love to have seen you in Into the Woods, but I certainly uh I can't imagine anybody else uh being the Billy Crocker that you are very sweet to say that thank you, Ben.

[17:44] Ben Rimalower: And were you aware um that that Patty also had been thinking about doing Into the Woods and had had was that in the in the for you?

[17:54] Howard McGillin: Not really, not really. I think she must have mentioned it at some point or other.

[17:59] Howard McGillin: Uh and then going back in terms of so back to that player's horizons. Um Betty Buckley was the one in that incarnation.

[18:08] Ben Rimalower: Um what I mean, I I always think that seems like one of the great missed opportunities. I mean, how much I would love to have seen her do it. What was she like?

[18:18] Howard McGillin: She was great. I uh well, I remember I remember like working together uh in Mystery of Edwin Drew. We had done Drew together for a year.

[18:27] Ben Rimalower: And was she gone already at that point?

[18:30] Howard McGillin: She was gone. Yes. Yes.

[18:32] Howard McGillin: So 80, let's see, uh Drew opened in 85. Uh and I think she left right after the Tony's.

[18:42] Ben Rimalower: So that was 86, June 86.

[18:43] Howard McGillin: So Donna Murphy that was had taken over.

[18:48] Ben Rimalower: Yes, Donna Murphy, who had just left uh Drood to to go do Rags.

[18:54] Howard McGillin: Right.

[18:55] Howard McGillin: And uh they pulled her right back from rehearsal from Rags back into Drood, uh, which was just a great uh great moment for everybody.

[19:03] Ben Rimalower: Um tell me about Betty's witch.

[19:06] Howard McGillin: Well, I remember I you know it's been so long, Ben. I do remember standing with Betty at the piano when Steve first sent uh, you know, performed and and and showed us the the witch's song, and uh I was just absolutely uh just in awe of the fact that he had written and now this is 1986.

[19:33] Howard McGillin: Yeah, he's writing a rap song in 1986. He he it was it was just the the genius of Sondheim once again that that he he was capturing and and picking and choosing from uh from all the genre that exists in music at every moment.

[19:49] Ben Rimalower: Yeah he had that kind of uh facility to bring to bring kind of the contemporary music and pop music into a musical.

[19:57] Howard McGillin: I just I remember how how stunning that was. Um and of course the cleverness of his rhymes, and and you know, there's just no touching it.

[20:07] Howard McGillin: So that that that's my that's my abiding memory of that of that particular uh song and that particular performance.

[20:15] Howard McGillin: Um yeah, I I I uh I wish I remembered more details about it. Like uh Bob Guntin was the narrator uh I mean w was was that a very different take than what Tom Aldridge wound up doing.

[20:29] Howard McGillin: Um I you know, it was still the show was still coming together in terms of of net the the balance of narration and and performance of stuff.

[20:40] Howard McGillin: So I I don't think it was as large a part at that point of the presentation did not play the mysterious man.

[20:50] Ben Rimalower: Uh-huh.

[20:50] Howard McGillin: Um that uh God was still shaping up at that point.

[20:56] Ben Rimalower: And do you remember I mean it's so you you by the presentation, I mean, I were you guys rehearsed for a couple weeks, maybe.

[21:04] Howard McGillin: I think it was it was about a week, maybe a week, maybe ten days.

[21:09] Ben Rimalower: And I mean, so so you s by the time you had an audience, you were singing the songs, and I mean, was there staging, or were you just at like music stands and stuff?

[21:17] Howard McGillin: Uh we were at music stands basically. There was some kind of you know, basic on and off kind of thing.

[21:24] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[21:24] Howard McGillin: And um was there do you remember who was in the audience or what you know?

[21:30] Howard McGillin: Was it can did it feel like a backers audition kind of a thing or it was everybody who was anybody.

[21:37] Howard McGillin: I mean, I just remember Joanna Gleason introducing me to Mike Nichols. It was like, you know, my head was exploding. You know, it was uh it was it was an intense uh just over the top experience, just excitement and thrill and mixed with terror and uh you know, you know.

[21:59] Ben Rimalower: And do do you remember do you remember Joanna Gleason's Baker's wife? Did you have an awareness then that oh wow, this is a part that she can really triumph in?

[22:09] Howard McGillin: I do. I remember I remember the the beauty of her kind of stillness in the center of that role that she already understood. She's such a wonderful actor, and it was it was it uh it was just a lesson for me in in in minimalism without sacrificing one ounce of depth and and uh you know theatricality at the same time.

[22:35] Howard McGillin: She just she knew how to do it, and I was in awe of that.

[22:39] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah.

[22:40] Howard McGillin: And Chip Zion.

[22:41] Ben Rimalower: I mean, well, that was Ray Gill was the big it was Ray Gill.

[22:41] Howard McGillin: It was Ray Gill, yes.

[22:46] Howard McGillin: We did subsequent to the to the uh uh to that actual playwrights, we did a one night backers audition.

[22:57] Howard McGillin: Uh, writers colony that James was a very much a part of, uh, that he may have even—did he start to write Into the Woods there? I'm not—I don't remember. But anyway, he was chairing this evening, a gala evening, and Chip was then doing the baker. So I remember that much specifically. Would that have been after they went to San Diego, maybe? Or it was. Yes, it was, yeah, yeah. And so maybe right before you decided to do Anything Goes. I think I had already decided to do Anything Goes because I got a call from Sondheim to ask me to do the event, and he gave me a little bit of a slap on the wrist because I went to him and in my letter to him saying I'm so sorry, I'm not gonna be able to join you.

I think—I think, I don't think, I know I had mentioned the words career consideration, and he called me, and he called me on it, and he said, "Don't use words like that." And I was like, oh my god, I've really sealed my fate with him. But then in his next breath, he said, "And I'd like to ask a favor of you, would you come and sing the role for an evening?" So we did a presentation of Into the Woods with Joanna, with Chip, and a young guy named Jeff Blumencranz. Ah, just graduated from college and was playing The Other Prince. Oh, wonderful. Yeah. Um, and I know he went on to do it. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And um, that's interesting. Uh, well, and then you went on to do another Sondheim show years later. Um, so he fully forgave you. He forgave me. I think he forgave me. I always joke that that was it. It sealed my fate and he hates me. But, uh, you know.

[25:00] Howard McGillin: And uh, and what do you remember about Ray Gill? Because people have spoken so fondly of him. I know that um, James was very reluctant to cast Chip because he didn't look like Ray, and they were so in love with Ray, but for whatever reason, I know he knows sadly passed away, but he was not available, I think, for the San Diego production. No, Ray was—Ray was lovely, he was such a lovely guy and had a lovely spirit that he brought to the baker. Um, he kind of reminded me of a young Paul Servino. And maybe, I don't know, there's some connection there with the Baker's life. You know, I don't know. I just—I'm riffing, but no, I'm—I was actually gonna ask you who—because they've all—Chip spoke of him so highly and James Lapine spoke of him so highly, and Ira Weitzman spoke of him so highly, and I couldn't really get a concept of what he was like.

That helps. You know, we—yeah, it was such a brief kind of, you know, couple of days in rehearsals with this lovely guy. Yeah, um, that's kind of all I remember other than that he was terrific in the part. Uh, and a lovely kind of bright spot in the room. You know, he brought a lovely energy into the room.

[26:21] Howard McGillin: So yeah, and then I guess, um, Nancy Opal was one of the stepsisters. Do you remember that? Well, I do, I do. Uh, yeah. I'm trying to remember who, uh, the—who was the other stepsister, uh, Schneider, your admissions. Johnna Schneider? Yeah. Uh, yeah. Uh, yeah. No, there was another lovely, lovely actor, Darcy, with Cinderella. Mary Darcy. Yeah. I absolutely—who I knew from Sunday in the Park with George. Yes. Yep. Well, she—she must—I mean, I was surprised she didn't wind up doing it subsequently because I know they loved her and she had been so good in Sunday in the Park. Yeah, I don't—I don't know what, you know, obviously who knows. These are things do happen. So very possibly, I mean, she might have been unavailable.

Uh-huh. But um, because I think she did Singing in the Rain on Broadway at some point. Uh-huh. Yes, that's right. Um, but uh, and then some of the people in it were the eventual cast members like Danielle Furland and um, Barbara Brand. Um, but oh, uh, Robert Sean Leonard was Jack. Do you have any memories of that?

[27:42] Howard McGillin: Oh, I so do. First of all, I just adored him already, uh, before I'd even met him. Uh, um, and he was Jack. He, uh, I forget, he was still a teenager when we did it. Yeah. He was, uh, maybe all of sixteen years old when—when you look back. He was so perfect for the part. He was just great. And uh, I just remember thinking I wish at the age of sixteen or however old he was that I had been able to pull it together like he did for that. It was just—it was really quite amazing. Quite amazing. And I mean, went on to have an amazing career. Do you have a strong singing voice? He had a really true, honest singing voice. Um, it felt like speech on pitch, which is for me the—that's a standard I've taken with me throughout my career.

I think it's an amazing gift to be able to sound like you actually are speaking, but still able to—his pitch was absolutely perfect, and it just felt so true and so honest, and it's exactly what Sondheim loved in singers. He didn't want to hear the singer singing, yeah. He wanted to hear the character actually finding what he needed in life. That's—that's what he—that's how Sondheim wrote everything he wrote, which is finding the truth of this moment and how, you know, how does this person find their way through the world? And—and that's how—that's how Robert sang.

[29:30] Howard McGillin: Wow. Oh, I'm so—I'm so sad we didn't get to see more of that. That sounds so incredible. I am too. I am too. I mean, I'm not too late. Yeah, he's been okay. Okay, yeah, that's right. Um, as have you. I mean, have you ever been in talks or thought about doing another production of Into the Woods, maybe graduating to a different role at another point? It's not come up, but I certainly would love it. It still is one of my all-time favorites of Sondheim's, uh, and—and James's. So I, yeah, I would love it. Are you kidding? Absolutely. I—I have my tickets to—to see this new version of it. I haven't seen it yet, but I'm so thrilled. Going in a couple weeks. Oh good. Well, you'll have to let me know what you think. We can start our campaign to get you to get—

[30:19] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, okay, Ben.

[30:21] Howard McGillin: Okay. Oh my God. Trying to think if there was anything else I remember about this, uh, that could shed light on it. Um, wow. Well, was that, um, uh, the only sort of Playwrights Horizons kind of like developmental thing you did of any show, or were you—did you kind of join that kind of Ira Weitzman repertory at that point?

[30:47] Howard McGillin: No, it was the only—that was the only Playwrights, uh, thing that I was actually a part of. Um, Ira, of course, then was at Lincoln Center when I did Anything Goes.

[31:01] Ben Rimalower: Oh, right, yeah.

[31:01] Howard McGillin: He—he followed you.

[31:03] Ben Rimalower: Yes, that's right.

[31:04] Howard McGillin: He followed me around.

[31:07] Ben Rimalower: And did—did you at the time of that Playwrights workshop, was there the sense that, uh, they're gonna do this and then it's gonna go to Broadway or there was a pretty good sense that it was gonna go to Broadway?

[31:22] Howard McGillin: We didn't know that San Diego was going to be a, you know, a turn in the road towards Broadway, but at that point there, I think there might have been some talk about it going right to Broadway.

[31:34] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, which is what Sunday in the Park had done and also Playwrights and won the Pulitzer. So it wouldn't have been a hard thing to imagine.

[31:43] Howard McGillin: Exactly. Exactly. Um, but, uh, yeah, yeah. I wish I had a sharper memory or crystal balling about that.

[31:53] Ben Rimalower: Um, James Lapine, uh, the book Putting It Together about Sunday in the Park.

[31:59] Howard McGillin: I have not read it.

[32:00] Ben Rimalower: Oh, you should read it, it's so great.

[32:01] Howard McGillin: But—and it's a really fun read, and you can just pick it up because it's, you know, all the conversations with all the people.

[32:08] Ben Rimalower: But he talks so much about so much tension between him and pretty much everybody as he would—had not directed a lot of, um, uh, well, he had not directed a lot at all. I mean, you know, and he certainly hadn't directed a lot of musicals, and Marsha the Falsettos had been so different and unique.

[32:26] Howard McGillin: Um, and, uh, uh, I wonder was—did it feel like that was still kind of an issue at this point then with Into the Woods, or had he smoothed it out a little more?

[32:38] Howard McGillin: Yeah, no, I d—I didn't—I didn't—there, you know, because it was such a condensed amount of time, I don't think there were any—there were any, um, awkward moments or anything like that.

[32:52] Ben Rimalower: Um, yeah, but you guys must have known stuff. I mean, being, you know, in the heart of the industry at the time, I mean you did Anything Goes instead, but it was the same pool of people, all there. You must have had all the gossip in the moment when it was happening.

[33:08] Howard McGillin: Oh, I think so. I think so.

[33:09] Howard McGillin: And you know, it's a little footnote that Into the Woods opened on my birthday in, uh, in November 3rd or something, five.

[33:20] Ben Rimalower: Five.

[33:22] Howard McGillin: Yeah, yeah.

[33:24] Howard McGillin: And I remember walking by—I was—I was going to work at Lincoln Center and thinking, "It's just opened," and even to that at that point I was thinking, "Oh god, I wish I could be in two places at once."

[33:24] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, um, yeah, well when I do the, uh, the podcast about Anything Goes, I'll call you.

[33:24] Howard McGillin: Yes, I'd love to talk about that. That was, uh, that was an amazing experience. So, you know, there are no mistakes in—in a career, you just do what you do, and I—I was so, um, blessed to be part of that. So, uh, yeah, one of my great regrets is not seeing it, but I was lucky enough to see that, uh, reunion concert that you did. That was 2002, and that was pretty—

[33:24] Howard McGillin: When Patti sang "Blow Gabriel" twice.

[33:24] Ben Rimalower: Yes, indeed.

[33:24] Howard McGillin: I would have waited a third time gladly. We had such—there is a podcast in there for this because I think there's a—the—what an experience it was, a great experience putting that together, uh, and John Widman and Tim Krause and, uh, Jerry, and it was—that was—and what a remarkable cast it was. It was truly amazing. It just had 35th—35th anniversary or something that crazy. God, I'm old. It feels like you guys launched the modern era of revivals with that production.

[33:24] Howard McGillin: Wow, wow, because it was—you know, it feels like it had the, uh, electricity of a new musical, and it was, you know, fresh take.

[35:03] Howard McGillin: And now that's what everybody's trying to do with every revival.

[35:06] Ben Rimalower: Right, right.

[35:07] Howard McGillin: Wow.

[35:08] Howard McGillin: It sure felt like that at the time, I'll tell you. Wish I could remember more about Into the Woods.

[35:13] Ben Rimalower: Um, if you think of anything or if you find me, um, yeah, you know, printed materials, if you want to send me a, uh, a photo, I would love it. Any details are great.

[35:22] Howard McGillin: Okay. Yeah. Well. I just remember being in the room and standing behind Sondheim showing you a new song. It was just, you know, if nothing else happened in my career, that would have been it. Uh, and you're right, the fact that he forgave me enough to do Bounce.

[35:47] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[35:48] Howard McGillin: Uh, and I remember him standing outside my dressing room in Chicago just after the curtain had come down, saying to me, "Howard, you waited a long time to play a role like this." And it was a little bit of his, you know, a little bit of patting himself on the back because, you know, he wrote the damn thing. But you never had it so good, baby. You never had it so good. You should have done Into the Woods.

[36:14] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I don't know. It felt a little bit like, you know, he had his moment to kind of dig a little bit again. So petty.

[36:21] Howard McGillin: Um, I mean, so Sondheim obviously is in a class by himself, but I'm curious, just process-wise, just with Edwin Drood, had it kind of already been finished by the time you were cast in it? Was it not that sort of a journey?

[36:36] Howard McGillin: When we did a reading at the Public Theater of Drood, uh, that lasted three and a half hours.

[36:44] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[36:45] Howard McGillin: The book Rupert had written this book, and it was aptly named a book. We had tabulated pages to flip to for the different endings that could possibly be voted on because the audience that day, it was a packed room of maybe 300 people, the hottest day in the springtime of that year, which was '85, uh, at the Public Theater, and they actually voted on the endings. We did the whole thing. Uh, and Peter Gallagher played Neville Landless in it.

[37:21] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[37:22] Howard McGillin: And, uh, and I just remember, uh, just like, uh, pinch me again. I mean, I'm doing this thing at the Public Theater and Joe Papp is sitting right in front of me while I'm performing, but, uh, it was a big old mess. It was huge and sprawling, and Wilford had to say, "Cut it down, cut it down, cut it down." And it went through big changes. We had a whole new opening number by Broadway. We did it at the Public, I mean, at the Delacorte Theater was a very different show than the one that opened.

[37:57] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[37:57] Howard McGillin: Yeah, a whole different opening number, I think a finale that act one was different. Well, no, it was still Moonfall, uh, name of love. But, uh, that experience in the parking lot with that show, never forget it. Yeah, just a memory. Incredible. But it was no, it changed a huge amount. Book and plot the same, but sure.

[38:23] Ben Rimalower: Um, and any Cleo Lane stories? Because she, you know, she's the witch on tour.

[38:29] Howard McGillin: Yeah, I loved Cleo so much. Um, and it was, you know, I was not a jazz buff going into it, but God, I've grown to appreciate her so much.

[38:41] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[38:42] Howard McGillin: Um, but I knew we were in the presence of jazz royalty and, uh, and even her kind of, um, you know, the British thing that she had, uh, as well. It was just, I felt like I was, uh, you know, experiencing another level of, uh, of celebrity and kind of, you know, it was kind of thrilling. Uh, of course the, um, the fact that I'm trying to, I'm trying to remember now. I'm mixing up shows because I did two shows at the Public, so, you know, I did La Bohème and then I did that.

[39:22] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[39:23] Howard McGillin: Um, trying to think if I can remember anything more about her other than that. She was brilliant, brilliant. And then replaced by Loretta Swit.

[39:33] Ben Rimalower: Amazing. What? Did she sing?

[39:37] Howard McGillin: Ish.

[39:38] Ben Rimalower: Ish, yeah. I mean, we probably won't put that in the list podcast anyway. But, um, uh, and then Karen Morrow though, right? Were you still, you stayed the whole run?

[39:47] Howard McGillin: I was there for the whole run and I so adored Karen. I adore her to this day. We, uh, we knew each other in LA before I came to New York.

[39:57] Ben Rimalower: Oh wow.

[39:58] Howard McGillin: Karen Morrow and I were in a dance class together, a class for actors in LA in the Valley.

[40:05] Ben Rimalower: I don't know if you know LA at all, but we were...

[40:05] Howard McGillin: Yeah, I'm from LA.

[40:08] Ben Rimalower: I grew up.

[40:09] Howard McGillin: Are you from LA?

[40:10] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[40:11] Howard McGillin: Born and raised.

[40:12] Ben Rimalower: Oh wow, where'd you go to high school?

[40:14] Howard McGillin: Well, I was raised in, um, I grew up in LA, Los Feliz Hills, and, uh, Franklin Avenue Elementary School, and then we moved to Santa Barbara. So I actually did the rest of my high school years, uh, junior high and high school in Santa Barbara.

[40:30] Ben Rimalower: Geese.

[40:32] Howard McGillin: Are you talking about the Debbie Reynolds dance studio though?

[40:36] Ben Rimalower: No, it was called the Moro Landis.

[40:38] Howard McGillin: Oh.

[40:39] Ben Rimalower: Ventura Boulevard right near Vineland, out there by Universal Studios.

[40:46] Howard McGillin: Yeah. I started as a Universal contract player. I was put under contract. My very first job in LA, I was put under contract under their new talent program, and I was there for five and a half years. I got my start in television doing under that contract.

[41:01] Ben Rimalower: Amazing.

[41:02] Howard McGillin: I was paid a pittance every week in exchange for they give you a push in the door for producer sessions for casting. Um, you're not guaranteed any roles, but you're, you know, you have to still get the role, but there's high incentive for the producers to hire you because they're gonna save money.

[41:21] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, you're part of the system already.

[41:24] Howard McGillin: And, you know, it's just, I don't know, it's like a little quid pro quo thing that goes on there. But, or you're from there. That explains to me why you went there first. If you wanted to do musical theater, you didn't come to New York.

[41:36] Ben Rimalower: From there, uh, absolutely that is exactly how I was. I'd finished college and, uh, I had an acting teacher, a lovely, lovely, generous man named Bradford Dillman, who was a quite an accomplished, he played Eugene O'Neill in, uh, in Long Day's Journey, that Jose Quintero, famous Jose Quintero revival of Long Day's Journey in the '60s. And he was an actor studio actor, and he started teaching acting just out of the generosity of his heart, not charging actors in Santa Barbara, like young actors. The Bottoms brothers, Timothy Bottoms and Joseph Bottoms and Samuel Bottoms. I don't know if you know them. Um, they were, uh, Tim Bottoms was kind of famous for, uh, there was a movie, uh, Dalton Trumbo book, uh, Johnny Got His Gun that he starred in. And the, oh, the Last Picture Show.

[42:30] Ben Rimalower: Oh yeah.

[42:31] Howard McGillin: He was the star of Last Picture Show.

[42:33] Ben Rimalower: Okay.

[42:33] Howard McGillin: The Bogdanovich. Uh, and so we, it was kind of this little niche, niche kind of, um, very kind of classy thing to be asked to be in Bradford Dillman's class. So, so I was a, I was, I started studying in earnest studying acting with him as a kid in high school and then college. And he, he said, "I want you to meet my agents in Hollywood." And I finished college. And he actu, that was my first agent was his agent.

[43:03] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[43:04] Howard McGillin: And he, and the agent said, "I'm sending you over to Universal, I want them to see you." And I was, I was put under contract kind of pretty fast. So, uh, so I worked there in television for about five and a half years before I realized I'm a dime a dozen in Hollywood. I'm not singing, I'm not on the stage. And that's where I really feel I'm in my element. I really want to do that. And it took me a couple more years, like three and a half, four years to get the nerve up to say, "I'm gonna give New York a shot." And it was Sunday in the Park with George on the Tonys that really convinced me.

[43:42] Ben Rimalower: Well, you were right. I mean, things really took off for you right away when you got here. And that, I mean, you already had two little kids at that point.

[43:50] Howard McGillin: Yes.

[43:50] Ben Rimalower: I mean, so that was a big decision to move across.

[43:54] Howard McGillin: It was enormous. Yeah. Yeah. And my then wife, uh, Mary, was so supportive of me. So, you know, it really is a tribute to her that I came to New York. And New York wasn't that great of a place to be in with little kids in 1984 or whatever, you know.

[44:14] Ben Rimalower: At all.

[44:15] Howard McGillin: At all. Luckily, I found Park Slope and, uh, and a sublet from a couple of actors who were going to LA. And, uh, that's how I started, you know, kind of putting my roots down here. And I cannot believe it's 38 years ago. It's like, uh...

[44:28] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[44:33] Howard McGillin: And the Phantom of the Opera is only closing now.

[44:39] Ben Rimalower: So yeah, so Phantom was opening when Anything Goes opened.

[44:43] Howard McGillin: Isn't that crazy? Into the Woods. I mean, it's like this is the, what did they say? This is the third Broadway production of Into the Woods. It's the fifth major New York production of Into the Woods, and the Phantom is still there at the Majestic. Just mind-boggling.

[45:01] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Well, that's a whole other podcast, too. We'll have to do that.

[45:09] Ben Rimalower: Thank you for listening to Giants in the Sky, how Sondheim and Lapine went Into the Woods on the Broadway Podcast Network. Check out episode seven with Christine Ebersole, who played the Baker's Wife in the first reading at Playwrights Horizons.