This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Ben Rimalower: Broadway Podcast Network presents Giants in the Sky, How Sondheim and Lapine Went Into the Woods with me, Ben Rimalower.

[0:07] Ben Rimalower: Today's guest, Michael Chybowski, first assistant to the lighting designer.

[0:11] Ben Rimalower: Once upon a time.

[0:16] Michael Chybowski: I was the first assistant to lighting designer, the late Richard Nelson on the original Broadway production of Into the Woods. He designed the lights for the original Broadway and Off-Broadway productions of Martin McDonagh's The Lieutenant of Inishmore and was nominated for a Drama Desk Award for his lighting of Margaret Edson's Pulitzer Prize-winning drama Wit. He has won an Obie and two Lucille Lortel Awards for his many other lighting designs, including multiple shows for the Public Theater/New York Shakespeare Festival, the New York Theater Workshop, the Vineyard Theater, and MCC, as well as the top Lortel Theaters around the country. He is an associate professor of lighting design at the University of Connecticut School of Fine Arts.

[0:59] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, it would be funny if it was a lighting designer and then we had to look at their Zoom lighting.

[1:03] Michael Chybowski: It's a whole different. I think a lot of lighting designers have terrible lighting in their own homes.

[1:11] Ben Rimalower: Unbelievable.

[1:14] Ben Rimalower: So, all right. Well, uh, I should tell you, uh, up front that I'm extremely ignorant about lighting design. Um, I even when I was directing theater, I always loved collaborating with the lighting designers, but it was very much like being at the eye doctor, where they, you know, would say this or this. This and, uh, they used to make fun of me because when they would talk about colored light, I only even noticed it if it was like on like a scrim or something where it was being picked up.

[1:47] Michael Chybowski: Um, actually, actually at the end of this, I have just the thing for you.

[1:52] Ben Rimalower: Oh, what is that?

[1:54] Michael Chybowski: I wrote a book that was released in February called What Is Lighting Design?

[2:01] Ben Rimalower: Wonderful. That is such an important book. So many people in theater need that knowledge.

[2:07] Michael Chybowski: I hope so. I hope so. Yeah, the subtitle is A Genealogy of People and Ideas. So it just goes back to the 1500s, uh, and just works its way forward from there. And so you can sort of see how people developed all the ideas about what has become modern lighting design.

[2:27] Ben Rimalower: I cannot wait to read that. And maybe you'll give me a little bit of a crash course just because I think it'll be interesting. I know that there have been a lot of developments in lighting design. I don't know specifically which of them predated, uh, Into the Woods or since. And, you know, so I'd love to know a little bit about how, uh, Into the Woods as a lighting project compared to the shows that people working now would, you know, encounter. But just to back up a little more, uh, so, uh, I, uh, was told that you were the associate lighting designer for Richard Nelson on this show.

[3:05] Michael Chybowski: Uh, I was what was is at that time what's called a first assistant. Uh, before they came up with the fancier associate title, yes.

[3:14] Ben Rimalower: Right, yeah, yeah.

[3:15] Michael Chybowski: Um, and was this your first show with Richard?

[3:20] Michael Chybowski: Uh, well I hadn't, uh, no, uh, but it was kind of a bigger role. The I had met him the summer after he won his Tony for Sunday in the Park with George because I was the head electrician/assistant at when the whole La Jolla Playhouse opened.

[3:38] Michael Chybowski: Wonderful. He did two of the shows the first summer when it reopened. So I didn't see him after that because I went to grad school and then, um, what was it? The you after I was done with grad school, usually Jennifer Tipton would hire the two graduates to assist her for the first year to sort of use the way into New York. But she couldn't, she didn't, um, she couldn't afford it that year. So I called up Richard and, you know, said, Can I have some, can we have some coffee? And he said, Oh, come on down to New York. I'm at the whatever theater he was taking a show at.

[4:18] Michael Chybowski: So I walked in there, and, um, uh, before he even said hello, he said, Um, do you want to be the first assistant for Into the Woods?

[4:28] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[4:29] Michael Chybowski: Yeah. I hadn't, he hadn't said a word to me for four years.

[4:34] Ben Rimalower: And, uh, this was after he was done doing it in San Diego or before?

[4:40] Michael Chybowski: Uh, I think just after.

[4:42] Ben Rimalower: And had you been like a Sondheim fan? Had you seen Sunday in the Park or Sweeney Todd? What was your sort of context for this?

[4:50] Michael Chybowski: Um, none. I was just looking for a job. So, uh, I had seen the national tour for, um, A Little Night Music in Los Angeles while I was in college, and I remember walking out going, I don't understand this at all. It’s a lot for a college kid, you know.

[5:13] Michael Chybowski: It’s middle-aged, uh, you know, sexual mores or whatever, you know.

[5:22] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah, and I was also the, um, I mean the scenography or the set and the lighting, it was, it's so like anti-Broadway musical that I thought, uh, there's something going on here that I really don't understand.

[5:37] Michael Chybowski: Interesting.

[5:38] Ben Rimalower: Um, so then you get this job, uh, on Into the Woods.

[5:44] Michael Chybowski: Yeah, and, uh, was this, I know they did a workshop at 890 Broadway just a couple weeks before Broadway rehearsal started. And I know at least the costume design build had started before the workshop even took place. Were you and Richard already working on the lighting in advance like that also?

[6:06] Michael Chybowski: Um, well the, um, he I think he hired me in early May. The, um, I, the load in wasn't gonna be until like the middle of September, I believe, or maybe the end of September. And I already had some shows I needed to do at Berkshire Theatre Festival, so we arranged for me to just, you know, when I was done with those, to I was, I would start in the studio. And so, uh, when I arrived, there had been another assistant there doing all of the, uh, preparatory drawings, and the level of detail was something I had never seen before.

[6:44] Michael Chybowski: And normally there's maybe, I don't know, five or six different plates of drafting for a musical. There were 26.

[6:53] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[6:54] Michael Chybowski: Yeah. So he had, I mean, broken apart every wing so that he made sure he had a view of what was possible in each wing. Um, somebody had spent, you know, two days doing each, you know, drawing each wing for him. I mean, it was that, it was incredibly detailed.

[7:11] Ben Rimalower: Was this because of the demands of the set design?

[7:15] Michael Chybowski: Yes.

[7:16] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[7:16] Michael Chybowski: Yeah. Because the, I mean, I mean, you all, you've obviously seen the model. I'm sure you saw the original show.

[7:23] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, the masking, the tree masking slid in and out. The, um, there were all kinds of ways that the space needed to be reconfigured. And Richard, you know, just wanted to make sure that he was able to, you know, support all of that.

[7:39] Ben Rimalower: Interesting. You know, I did not see it on Broadway, although I've seen many times, like I think almost every theater fan alive now has the American Playhouse broadcast of the Broadway production. But when I spoke with, um, Tony Straiges, uh, the set designer, I said to him, you know, what's the thing that I am as having only seen it on video, what am I most missing of the experience of seeing it live?

[8:09] Ben Rimalower: And he said the lighting.

[8:20] Michael Chybowski: Yeah, well, I mean, like I had never seen quite seen this before. Do you know what an electric is?

[8:26] Ben Rimalower: That means lights that are programmed to move on their own without, uh, someone having to do each move manually, is that right?

[8:35] Michael Chybowski: No, those are actually just called moving lights.

[8:37] Ben Rimalower: Moving the lights, gotcha.

[8:39] Michael Chybowski: The, uh, an electric is, is a baton or a pipe that's overhead that has lights on it.

[8:44] Ben Rimalower: Oh, okay. That I can process.

[8:47] Michael Chybowski: Yeah, yeah, that's all. But the, and I, the normally there's one or two in each wing. And I think they were, I think we had five wings. But Richard had twenty-six electrics. Some were full stage, some were short as three feet, just because, you know, he could pack three lights in there. And the most of the little idiosyncratic ones were there simply to be able to, so the light could interact with the set.

[9:13] Ben Rimalower: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And was this the kind of thing that would have been like heavily paper tech in advance, or did it have to happen just in real time in, uh, the Q2Q?

[9:27] Michael Chybowski: Just, you know, was it just like a very long tech process?

[9:31] Michael Chybowski: Uh, it was two weeks of tech, a week for act one and a week for act two, and even that felt a little rushed. Um, I mean, the, uh, before we moved into the theater, uh, I remember there was a week when all the creative team would go over to James's apartment and, uh, with the stage managers and go through every single number piece by piece by piece by piece by piece.

[10:02] Michael Chybowski: And, uh, I mean Richard would get back to the studio around six o'clock at night and just be exhausted because, you know, of the level of concentration that was required.

[10:12] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[10:13] Michael Chybowski: To be able to do that. But it's, I mean, they were all there. They took all took the time to just go through it, make sure everybody knew what was gonna happen, get the spikes for all the move everything that moved so that they could pre-spike it and then they could pre-program it because it was automated.

[10:31] Michael Chybowski: So that, I mean, before we started focus, um, all of the spikes on all of the automated scenery were set.

[10:40] Ben Rimalower: And was that, and was any of that sort of new technology at that time?

[10:46] Michael Chybowski: Uh, new-ish.

[10:48] Michael Chybowski: Yeah. I mean, here's, I mean, this will tell you what it was like then. Because in 1986, the computer board didn't make it to Broadway until 1975 with Chorus Line.

[11:00] Michael Chybowski: And then the second computer board was side by side by Sondheim in 1979. And that sort of opened the floodgates. Um and by late 1980, like a year and a half after that, um Paul, the lighting designer Paul Gallo tried to get one of the old piano boards from a shop for a Broadway show, and was told we don't have those anymore. You have to have a computer. That fast. That fast. Wow. And the um so I mean uh the a big Broadway musical without a computer was 72 dimmers and four operators. Yeah, wow. We had 450 dimmers and 700 lights. And while we were still uh focusing, Ken Billington was loading in another show with a thousand lights. Wow. Yeah. What show was that? I d I never knew. He just walked in in a big suit and was all important.

Literally shop talk. Um but I love it. But the but I mean, this is the thing that you'll give really give you a sense of what it was like in nineteen eighty-seven is that there was Eric Cornwell, who you'd been talking to. Yeah, was hired by Richard Nelson to um m write the software to make a Macintosh mimic a light board. So because the blade boards often like just forgot what they were back then. Wow. So and so he wrote the code and um we brought it over to the theater when we were loading in, and um the house electrician freaked out and said, You can't have that in the theater. Because all of his friends had lost their jobs between 1980 and 1987. Because they all the all the shows used to be run manually by guys in the basement.

So there was those jobs were gone. Wow. So it took us two days to convince him that the thing wouldn't be plugged into anything other than a power outlet. Wow. I mean that's how that's how new it was. And and the fact that Eric could write code, I mean, that's a skill set that certainly a lighting designer wouldn't have had just a couple years before. Uh no, and actually there aren't very very many people like Eric now. Yeah, right, right. Yeah. Um but what a fortuitous uh crossover he must have been. Um and uh what um I know that there was a lot of rewriting that was happening uh in not just rehearsals but in previews, um, was that when something, you know, for example, like when the song Boom Crunch, I believe very late in previews was replaced by Last Midnight.

Did that wind up being a tremendous amount of uh sort of redesigning, or was it able to be sort of a less cumbersome shift because it took place on the same set with the same characters and same mood? Um, I don't know if I mean I don't think it was really cumbersome. I mean, I think we had uh six weeks of previews. Yeah. As far as I remember. And the um we all knew after a couple of weeks that Steven wasn't really happy with the way the show ended. So actually there they developed a little bit of a betting pool. Um, because everybody and like all the crew members, everybody had an opinion about oh, I think Steven could do this. And you know, there were camps and you know, like endless discussions, and um but the um he hadn't think he hadn't he hadn't made up his mind what he wanted to do when this when the preview period was done, so they ex they extended the preview period.

I think a month. Yeah. Three weeks to a month. And um and we were, you know, all during the preview period, we were still coming in in the morning and having rehearsals in the afternoons and then dinner break and then the show. Um so it it was, you know, we were in the theater for two and a half months. Wow. Uh as a young person looking for a job, that must have been good news for you. Well, the when they extended it, I had to sign another contract with the producers, and I came back to Richard's office and he looked at me and said, Um, you're making more than I am now. I love it. I was a little embarrassed, but yeah. Good job. Um, good job.

[16:04] Ben Rimalower: So uh what I maybe it's uh an obvious question, but what how was it so clear to everyone that Sondheim was unhappy with the ending of the show?

[16:16] Michael Chybowski: Um, I don't know. I mean, James said uh you know, Steven's not really happy with the end yet. Yeah, probably I mean there was no no, I mean it was none it wasn't a big secret. Right, right. Or anything like that. It was just, you know, he's still working on it. And what do you remember any of the uh uh pitches people in the the betting pool were coming up with for the ending? Not specifically, no. No. Um I think the the crew all seemed to have a very clear idea of what you know they and I I just remember that because they I was a little surprised that they had that much invested in it. Yeah. But uh I mean they were all you know, veterans. They had worked in the theater for years and years and years, and they might as well be dramaturgs.

I would love to know what their thoughts were. I mean, you know, a lot of people feel that the ending was never uh properly resolved. And um, you know, uh even though the show has gone on to be such a uh landmark musical, the uh reviews were mixed, and you know, even Frank Rich, who loved Sunday in the Park with George so much, had a lot uh of qualms about Into the Woods. And I wonder, I would love to know what the what the crew guys thought it should be.

[17:38] Michael Chybowski: Yeah, no, I I I just remember thinking when you know uh when Steven finally brought it in and we did it everybody kinda went oh well that's not quite as it's a little more vague or a little more um trying to thread the needle than we hoped it would be right yeah um I can see that um it's uh that's interesting um what uh did looking at that show did you think God if they if they got this right this could be like the greatest show ever like I'm still not sure what this you know is all about like what what was your feeling having gotten so intimately involved?

[18:26] Michael Chybowski: Um I don't I don't I mean I I think I remember having an opinion uh I don't uh I mean it wasn't it I kind of thought well it's not my show it's right so yeah but I mean he's entitled to you know decide for himself um um I mean we were just there to support whatever he decided.

[18:50] Ben Rimalower: And and what was you know it's it seems like there was a very um harmonious uh at least artistically uh collaboration between uh Richard and James Lapine. Um what was it about uh their two sort of styles that went so well together with these kind of iconic uh musicals?

[19:02] Michael Chybowski: Um not having worked on Sunday in the Park, I'm not a hundred percent sure. I mean, the thing that um my opinion of Richard is that he was as brilliant as he was because he loved puzzles. Like the like the um uh a design to him was sort of like trying to solve a puzzle. Yeah. And he would um uh do anything it took to solve it. And he was totally dedicated to it. I mean, that was um uh I mean it w it wasn't I mean one story I can tell you that I've never forgotten about Richard is I I know in about a couple of weeks before the light plot was due. I came into the office on a Monday morning and he was already there because he liked to get there early and you know, just think while it was quiet.

And he was at the far end of the studio and he was sitting on a stool looking at something. So I walked up and and said, Morning, Richard, what are you looking at? And I looked over and it was the set model. But it was upside down. Huh. And I said, Richard, what are you doing? And he said, I'm just looking to see if there's any other way the light can come in.

[20:34] Michael Chybowski: Wow. Fascinating. Yeah. Which I I I mean, I've always I never forgot that for obvious reasons. I mean, it almost I mean sometimes it's like, you know, on like um like Wordle, you know, like uh when you like shuffle, you shuffle the board of letters just to try to like trigger new new thoughts, new ideas. I mean, it it feels like the uh much grander version of that. Amazing.

[21:04] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Um and I mean, and I I assume he was something of a mentor to you in that in that time.

[21:11] Michael Chybowski: Uh yes, yeah. I mean, it was sort of I mean I had assisted on a bro uh one other Broadway show. Yeah for that. So I mean I s I knew my right way around a little bit but this was by far the biggest thing I had worked on up to that point. And and what outside the context of Lapine, just Richard Nelson, what what would you say uh looking back on him as a designer would sort of be you know a defining kind of um he he was a chameleon. He could do anything any in any style um I mean it he was very proud that he was the lighting designer for the first Merce Cunningham tour of Europe.

[21:53] Michael Chybowski: Yeah, back before Burst was at, you know, and anybody knew him because, I mean, they all the dancers and Merce and John Cage and Richard drove around in a Volkswagen bus from venue to venue.

[22:05] Michael Chybowski: And he, I mean, he relayed one story about, you know, that how they got to, you know, that night's place and it was something like an old World War II mess hall just like trusses and up on above no lighting positions a big wall of windows and a pile of lights on the floor.

[22:27] Michael Chybowski: Wow, and so he was, he just sat there, stood there and stared at the pile of lights for a while and, uh, looked, noticed there were some trees outside so he hung all the lights in the trees outside and showed him through the window for that night's show.

[22:43] Michael Chybowski: Wow, yeah.

[22:46] Michael Chybowski: Through glass.

[22:47] Michael Chybowski: Yeah.

[22:48] Michael Chybowski: Wow.

[22:49] Michael Chybowski: Yeah, he said the dancers always used to walk up to him and go, Richard, where is the light coming from tonight?

[22:59] Ben Rimalower: I love that.

[23:01] Michael Chybowski: Um, and the, I mean, out of all the time we had in tech, the, I mean, I used to try to sit next to him and try to anticipate what he was gonna do next.

[23:12] Michael Chybowski: And there was only one time out of nearly three months where I guessed right.

[23:20] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[23:21] Michael Chybowski: Yeah.

[23:22] Michael Chybowski: I've never worked for anybody else like that.

[23:25] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[23:27] Michael Chybowski: Um, what a wonderful tribute.

[23:32] Ben Rimalower: Um, what are, are there things that have come about in lighting design since Into the Woods that you think would have been wanted or needed in that original production?

[23:48] Michael Chybowski: Um, not necessarily. I mean, I think that the, the all the fancy stuff. I mean, I, I, all the fancy stuff is just fancy stuff.

[23:58] Michael Chybowski: I mean, it's certainly powerful.

[23:58] Michael Chybowski: Yeah.

[24:01] Michael Chybowski: It's nice if it's fla, you know, if it's flashy, but Richard was trying deliberately not to be flashy.

[24:08] Michael Chybowski: Um, like I, I sort of went off on my own with some of the follow spot QOQs and, um, uh, cued him like you would any other Broadway musical, like, you know, towards the end of the song when it goes dramatic, it gets, you know, the spot opens up a little bit and gets a little brighter, and he got really mad at me.

[24:27] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[24:28] Michael Chybowski: Because it, because he didn't want anybody to know that there were follow spots in the show.

[24:32] Ben Rimalower: I'm surprised to hear you say follow spots, yeah.

[24:35] Michael Chybowski: Yeah.

[24:36] Michael Chybowski: Yeah, he just, he wanted people to forget the technology and to focus on the characters and that's it.

[24:45] Ben Rimalower: That's amazing.

[24:46] Michael Chybowski: Um, it's funny, actually another thing Tony Strage just says was that he, um, he always wondered what a very sort of opposite sort of show busy kind of like vaudevillian take on Into the Woods, uh, you know, would look like and, um, I, uh, maybe that's your chance to go go bigger with the follow spots.

[25:12] Michael Chybowski: Yeah, they're all only follow spots of moving lights.

[25:15] Ben Rimalower: That's right, that's right.

[25:17] Michael Chybowski: Um, uh, and, uh, ha, have you revisited the show, um, in, in your career, uh, since then?

[25:27] Michael Chybowski: I actually, I had to light it about, when was it? It's probably 15 years ago now, and I was just totally intimidated.

[25:36] Michael Chybowski: Sort of like, you know, how do you live up to that?

[25:38] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[25:40] Michael Chybowski: But the, um, I mean having to go through it myself, I mean it was a different set, it was, you know, it's lower stakes and all that.

[25:48] Michael Chybowski: But the, um, I mean dramaturgically it's just so well put together, and that's when the through lines are so clear.

[25:55] Michael Chybowski: Um, and the emotion is so clear that, I mean it's a complicated thing to do, but it's, it's, it's, um, uh, it's also, you know, you know what you're doing because the music's telling you.

[26:09] Ben Rimalower: So it sounds like you are not probably surprised at the tremendous impact that the show has continued to have over the years, then.

[26:18] Michael Chybowski: Um, I mean, I'm, I don't think I'm s, no, I don't, I was, I actually thought, you know, given the reaction to the end of the, the second act that it might, you know, fade away but I'm glad it hasn't.

[26:32] Michael Chybowski: I mean I think, I think it's a wonderful thing.

[26:35] Michael Chybowski: Um, I'm still not sure that it, that that solution that he came up with is actually the best solution but the, um, you know, me and all the other people had, but um, I'm happy it's, you know, people think as highly of it as they do.

[26:35] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, well maybe the audience has caught up a little bit with, with time. Did you, did you, uh, ever find your love for Little Night Music or did it always feel like a weird show to you?

[27:06] Michael Chybowski: Uh, I, I finally figured it out.

[27:08] Michael Chybowski: I mean I had, I had to do, uh, I had actually Isaac Mizrahi directed it at Opera Theater of St. Louis.

[27:15] Ben Rimalower: Oh how fantastic.

[27:15] Michael Chybowski: And, uh, it was the first time he ever directed anything and he asked me to light it.

[27:20] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[27:21] Michael Chybowski: Yeah, so the, um, I figured it out.

[27:21] Ben Rimalower: Oh, I, I wish I'd seen that production that sounds amazing.

[27:32] Michael Chybowski: I loved it.

[27:32] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah, did he design the costumes?

[27:35] Michael Chybowski: Yes.

[27:36] Ben Rimalower: Oh, I've gotta look up photos of that, that sounds incredible.

[27:39] Michael Chybowski: Yeah, and I think, um, if I remember correctly he also designed the set.

[27:39] Ben Rimalower: Oh wow, yeah, interesting, how very cool.

[27:39] Ben Rimalower: Um, did you have, uh, any other, uh, work with Sondheim or Lapine, uh, after Into the Woods?

[27:57] Michael Chybowski: Uh, no, I mean aside from when Playwright's Horizons opened the new, the new building.

[28:04] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[28:04] Michael Chybowski: They did, um, what was supposed to be a staged readings of three of their hit musicals.

[28:13] Michael Chybowski: Yeah.

[28:13] Michael Chybowski: And one of the things was Falsettos and Falsettoland and James came back to do that.

[28:18] Michael Chybowski: But somehow it went from a staged reading to a semi full blown production within, I saw that about twenty-two years ago, right?

[28:27] Ben Rimalower: Uh-huh.

[28:27] Michael Chybowski: Yeah.

[28:29] Michael Chybowski: And it, I, it was just sort of a nightmare because player, you know, the, all, all the things that can terrible things that can happen when you have a new building happened.

[28:38] Ben Rimalower: Oh god.

[28:39] Michael Chybowski: Yeah.

[28:40] Michael Chybowski: So you broke in that, uh, that lighting, lighting, uh, board tree plot.

[28:48] Ben Rimalower: Or the, or the, the system, yeah.

[28:50] Michael Chybowski: The system, that's the word I was looking for.

[28:53] Michael Chybowski: Um, yes.

[28:54] Ben Rimalower: Uh, that's interesting.

[28:56] Michael Chybowski: Um, and, uh, and you teach at University of Connecticut.

[29:02] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[29:04] Michael Chybowski: And, um, is Into the Woods, uh, a sort of touchstone for, for students, like, um?

[29:04] Michael Chybowski: They, they love it.

[29:14] Michael Chybowski: I mean, yeah, they, um, yeah, they, they, they, yeah.

[29:20] Ben Rimalower: I would imagine you hear about that.

[29:20] Michael Chybowski: Um, and, uh, and sorry, tell me again the name of the book.

[29:26] Michael Chybowski: The genealogy of lighting design.

[29:28] Michael Chybowski: Uh, it's the book is called, um, or the title rather is, uh, what is lighting design.

[29:28] Ben Rimalower: What is lighting design, yes.

[29:36] Michael Chybowski: That's a better title than the genealogy of lighting design.

[29:39] Ben Rimalower: Thank you.

[29:40] Michael Chybowski: And it's, if you, if you want to look it up, it's published by Braplich.

[29:46] Michael Chybowski: And people can get it on Amazon and everywhere.

[29:49] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[29:50] Ben Rimalower: Wonderful.

[29:51] Ben Rimalower: Well, they should support local bookstores, but, uh, but, uh, I'll, I'll definitely be downloading it on Kindle tonight.

[29:57] Michael Chybowski: Um, uh, that's wonderful.

[29:59] Michael Chybowski: Uh, I look forward to reading that.

[30:01] Ben Rimalower: Um, I might, I might take the liberty of emailing you a follow-up question after I've, I've digested that.

[30:07] Michael Chybowski: Well, of course.

[30:08] Ben Rimalower: Um, but thank you so much.

[30:10] Michael Chybowski: Go ahead.

[30:12] Ben Rimalower: Oh, absolutely, please.

[30:13] Michael Chybowski: Anything you want to share, I'd love to hear it.

[30:15] Michael Chybowski: Yeah, I mean this, this, this one was kind of iconic, but to us.

[30:20] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[30:21] Michael Chybowski: Uh, when we were lighting the first scene with the three cottages, I think it was either the first time or the second time the witch appeared, Bernadette.

[30:31] Michael Chybowski: And James stopped because he had something he wanted to talk to Bernadette about.

[30:37] Michael Chybowski: And he went up there to talk to her.

[30:40] Michael Chybowski: Yeah, like a two-minute conversation got longer and longer and longer.

[30:47] Michael Chybowski: That stretched out to like over five minutes.

[30:49] Michael Chybowski: So of course everybody was trying to listen in on what he was saying.

[30:57] Michael Chybowski: And the more we could hear, the more we realized that he was telling her two things that seemed to be mutually contradictory.

[31:05] Ben Rimalower: Oh, in terms of the direction.

[31:09] Michael Chybowski: And we were all just sort of sitting on the back going, wondering what's, like, what the fuck are you doing? How does anybody do this?

[31:18] Michael Chybowski: Um, so this went, this conversation went on for like twenty minutes.

[31:22] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[31:22] Michael Chybowski: And everybody's just sitting there waiting and listening.

[31:26] Michael Chybowski: And then so James finally was like, okay, let's try this.

[31:30] Michael Chybowski: So he, out now he comes, you know, the music starts, and then Bernadette somehow manages to actually do it.

[31:37] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[31:39] Michael Chybowski: And we all, all of us just looked at each other and went, I guess that's why she's Bernadette Peters.

[31:46] Ben Rimalower: Indeed.

[31:49] Michael Chybowski: Brilliant.

[31:50] Ben Rimalower: Uh-huh.

[31:52] Michael Chybowski: Wow.

[31:52] Ben Rimalower: I think that's wonderful.

[31:56] Michael Chybowski: Um, yeah, everyone across the board just says the most wonderful things about working with her creatively and professionally and personally, and she's just, she's beloved.

[32:09] Michael Chybowski: Yeah, I mean, she, she went out of her way to come back to the tech table and say hi to us.

[32:13] Michael Chybowski: And I think she brought us candy one day.

[32:16] Michael Chybowski: And I mean, she even chatted with the assistants.

[32:20] Michael Chybowski: I mean, it was just, you know, it was pretty wonderful.

[32:23] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, it sounds like it.

[32:26] Ben Rimalower: Thank you for listening to Giants in the Sky, how Sondheim and Lapine went into the woods on the Broadway Podcast Network.

[32:33] Ben Rimalower: Look out for episode 61 with Mary Darcy, Cinderella in the Playwrights Horizons workshop.