This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Andrew: We've got a mission to find the best song that's ever been on Glee. There's no remote reason to it, so don't get mad at me. We got Andrew and Alison on the show of the Gleek of the Week Who's the Head Huntshow. Glacket by Glacket. We'll rank everyone. Gleek of the week. Gleek, click, click of the week. It's Gleek, Gleek of the Week. I am so excited for episode today. I am joined once more by Connor. How are you doing, Connor?

[0:50] Connor: I am so good, Andrew. How are you?

[0:52] Andrew: I feel like I never asked that.

[0:54] Connor: Oh, I mean, I'm always great. I mean, like, there are like it cut ebbs and flows. Episode 125 of talking about Glee. I mean, not even including Glee project. So, you know, there is absolutely ebb and flow, but I woke up this morning, read our Gleek of the Week's book again, just to get into the spirit. And I am really, really excited. But I'm also really excited because we are also approaching our third podcast anniversary, birthday, however you would like to call it. We will be celebrating that on a live stream on March 18th at 7 p.m. Eastern. Check your local listings. A special guest will be joining me for that, as well as three special Cheerio patrons who will be assisting with the three Glack decisions for this special episode. So if you would like to attend that, you can go to patreon.com slash gleek of the week pod and become part of our Cheerio tier for all the information on how to attend.

[1:58] Andrew: Also, I'm just running through like a quick laundry list of things before we get into the episode proper. Also, just a reminder Alison and I are still doing monthly Glee Project episode recaps, which are Patreon exclusive. You can attend those live streams as well as listen to all of our Glee Project Season 2 recaps on our Patreon. And also, I just like want to ask all the Gleeks at home, what would y'all like on the Patreon? I feel like I just put out content. I'm like, I don't know, I don't even like ask y'all, like, what do you want? I'm thinking of a few ideas, but I'm just like curious, if you're not part of the Patreon, why? Personally, I won't take offense. Just like tell me like what would it take for you to join?

I mean, you get ad-free episodes of the podcast, not one, not two, not three, but four days early. Everybody else gets the episode on Tuesday, but patrons of the podcast get access to them the Friday before. Love everybody who supports the podcast, patrons especially. It's a very simple way to support the podcast. You can go to patreon.com slash gleek of the week pod. My entire soapbox diet tribe is officially over.

[3:09] Andrew: Our Gleek of the Week this week is entertainment journalist Thea Glassman, who wrote the book Freaks, Gleeks, and Dawson's Creek, a book about how seven shows transformed television. Thea, how are you doing today?

[3:23] Thea Glassman: I'm good. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

[3:26] Andrew: Oh my god, of course. I, like I said before we even started recording, I was like watching interviews with you, and I think that you are such an aficionado of all things television. I was lucky enough to be sent a copy of the book ahead of time, and I loved it. Cannot recommend it enough. Can you explain, break down what this book is about and what inspired you to write it?

[3:49] Thea Glassman: Yeah. So the inspiration was around 2018. It was the 20-year anniversary of Dawson's Creek. So on a freelance assignment, I did this piece where I went inside the writer's room of Dawson's Creek and I talked to all the writers and the showrunner. And I did not realize quite how fascinating it was to write teen TV and to write the love triangles and like all the there's something so evocative about those years. And so I just became, I mean, as a teen TV lover myself, selfishly I wanted to delve into all of my favorite shows and get all the behind the scenes scoop. So I picked seven, started out as I think I had like 15 and I had to narrow it down, which was so sadly Lizzie McGuire made the cut, didn't make the cut.

[4:35] Andrew: Oh no.

[4:36] Thea Glassman: In the next book.

[4:37] Andrew: Exactly.

[4:38] Thea Glassman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. So I picked seven and then I talked to as many people who worked on the shows as possible, the writers, directors, actors, crew members, and kind of found out how they made these really magical shows that have meant so much to people happen.

[4:56] Andrew: Yeah, and can you just like just go through the list of all the shows? Because I'm sure there's so much overlap between Glee fans and the other shows that you broke down.

[5:06] Thea Glassman: Yeah, definitely. So it's Fresh Prince of Bel Air, My So-Called Life, Freaks and Geeks, Dawson's Creek, The OC, Friday Night Lights, and then we end with Glee.

[5:16] Andrew: Incredible. I mean, I wanted to ask the specific choice to end with Glee. Was that a chronological thing? Or was there a thematic thing that you wanted to go for?

[5:29] Thea Glassman: A little bit, yeah. So I think a lot of the narrative I discovered about teen television shows where they were constantly put in a box, and there were so many times when networks were said, like, that's not really, we don't want to tell a young woman's story. We don't want to show kids who are not popular and like stunning. And Glee, I think was finally teens were allowed to be whatever they wanted to be on that show. It was super zany, it was weird, it was dramatic, it had all these different genre melding that so many showrunners had worked so hard to achieve, and this was kind of the result, I think.

[6:06] Andrew: Sure, yeah. Because Connor and I have talked kind of relatively frequently, I would say, about the fact that both of us and so many of the Gleek listeners obviously are now of an age where we're approaching our like mid to late 20s, but we are still dedicating so much time to talk about this show and to like just giving it our all. I've got my own theories and ideas about this, but I'd be so interested to know, Thea, like what is it specifically about Glee? What was it that it did for the culture? Why was it such a hit and why are people still in 2024, in your opinion, still returning to this TV show?

[6:49] Thea Glassman: Well, this sounds so basic, but it's the talent is so it is stacked. Like it is it is one of those things where when I go back and rewatch clips, I'm still like there was there's not one loose. I don't know what the metaphor is. There's no one loose screw.

[7:05] Andrew: Yeah.

[7:06] Thea Glassman: And I think like the story, like an underdog story always really resonates. I think you can see yourself at a lot of different characters. Like, I remember when I was like first discovering Glee, all of my friend group would be like, who are you? Which character are you? And it has such like a message of hope, and it's so optimistic. And I think that's so rare. I think especially now that I think that's like not cool anymore for TV shows to be unabashedly optimistic and sweet.

[7:39] Andrew: Yeah, and I think that checks that box.

[7:41] Thea Glassman: Yeah, and I think I think so much of the talent, go ahead.

[7:43] Connor: You go take it.

[7:43] Thea Glassman: Okay, we're probably gonna say the exact same thing.

[7:47] Connor: You want to say in unison?

[7:49] Thea Glassman: Um I think so much of the talent, like you're saying, it's like I think that so many shows are looking like currently are like, okay, what is the star factor of like how we can we can make this show happen? But almost entirely this show was like people that we just didn't even know. And so we were familiarizing first with you know Finn Hudson, and then it's like, okay, then you fall in love with Corey, you know? And so it's it's really nice. I was just thinking like last night, I went to go see Little Shop of Horrors with Darren Criss on Broadway. Loved it, by the way. This is my second time watching it, and I'm just I'm obsessed. But I mean, like, I was thinking, I'm also missing the premiere of Single Black Female 2, starring Amber Riley. That like all of these like cast members have like went on and done their own like specific thing. It's just it's really really fantastic to watch all these years later.

[8:45] Thea Glassman: Yeah, it's um I went to see Titanic, and the whole time I was squinting at the lead, and I was like, She looks so familiar. And at the end, I looked at the playbook, I'm like, oh Lindsay.

[8:54] Connor: Right.

[8:54] Thea Glassman: And that's that is so cool that the Glee project, I feel like those cast members really went really far.

[9:01] Connor: 100%.

[9:01] Thea Glassman: I yeah. Even just like I think about this all the time that it's like I even speaking with Robert Ulrich about it was, you know, the first person to go home in the first episode of Glee Project season one, Bryce Vine. Now he goes by, is like one of the most accomplished folks, contestants from Glee Project. You know, like he has this really blossoming music career, and like he's the first to go home, but like obviously Robert had such an eye for what was like what was talent, what was great, what people want, and so yeah, it's just all around, it's really amazing all the things that they're doing.

[9:38] Thea Glassman: And I think Glee came on air as well at such an interesting time. Like it came it was it first started in 2009, you know, it was really the start of the Obama presidency. I like was there you know, everything I remember reading a few interviews with some of the creators and writers involved that everything really on TV at that time was kind of like law and order, SVU vibes, crime procedural. This was really kind of daring work. And I do think Andrew, you also hit like the nail on the head when you were talking about Glee and the Glee Project. I think the casting for the show and kind of everything about it was purely like it was kind of alchemy, wasn't it? Like it just happened at the exact same moment with those exact same people.

[10:20] Andrew: I always say in award discourse surrounding Glee, I truly believe that every award they won for like best ensemble or best like I don't know if they won a casting award or whatever. Completely deserved because you fell in love with those characters before you necessarily fell in love with those people, and then they kind of came, they became intertwined, did they not, in some way?

[10:44] Thea Glassman: Um they've kind of embedded like they embedded themselves in the in our lives in some strange way. Like I know I remember when Naya passed in 2020, and I had the Glee podcast, and you know, a BBC journalist found my podcast when she was doing her research and asked me to go on to BBC Radio and talk about her passing and why that was so moving to people and why it was why she was so important specifically. And you just think about things like that, and you're like, wow, like the power of TV, which obviously Thea, you go into in your book, is so so underestimated, especially when it's TV made for teenagers.

[11:27] Thea Glassman: Yeah.

[11:28] Andrew: And like I even, you know, Matthew Perry when he died, that's I feel like another example of I walked by the friend's apartment building, and there were just people flowers and cards and like the idea that Chandler Bing had such an effect on people. It's wild. I mean, like I walked past that a few months ago because he died in late October, and it must have been like December that I walked by, that they still have like stanchions set up in front of in like because I'm not a friends fan, so like I like truly don't resonate with the you know, the full impact and all the flowers and everything, but I can see that it's like even months after the fact that it's like this house that they didn't even this apartment that they didn't even film in that was simply just an establishing shot.

So many folks showed up for paid their condolences to a fictional character, like Connor, like you were saying, like just like even talking about like Naya, that it's like people are so affected when when these actors pass of course like we have to remember that for us in the context of this podcast, when Glee started, Andrew and I were circa 13 or 14 years old.

[12:37] Connor: Yeah, the show ended when we were 19, 20.

[12:41] Andrew: Those years that of adolescence are so defining and so difficult, and people come into your life and then they leave, and then you are not friends with this person, but you're figuring yourself out and you're growing up. And the one constant in my adolescence was a TV show. Literally, the So when the show was coming to an end, even though obviously everyone knows that there was a great deterioration in quality there, I was genuinely distraught. I was like, what am I going to do? This feels like the closing of this feels like a stamp on the end of my adolescence years. And you have to imagine ever since the show ended, and I can't speak for you, Andrew, but I would imagine that you have a similar experience.

We think about Glee almost every day of our lives, whether it just be a funny meme or like a especially now with the podcast, obviously, but even prior to that, whether it just be listening to one song or like a funny meme or like, oh look, Leah Michelle is gonna be in Funny Girl. Like we think about it literally every day.

[13:40] Connor: Well, I wanted to ask you, Thea, because like it is I feel as though I'm in this like glee echo chamber, this this gleeko chamber, I guess you would call it. But like where I'm like, I feel as though I log on to Twitter, and maybe Twitter is inside my brain and very well maybe, but like seeing all these glee memes one after another, I'm like, is this on everybody's feeds? Is Glee as like huge as I'm kind of led to believe still? Like, what do you think is the true root of like the fact that glee art is still being discussed at such a scale still like what 15 years after the premiere?

[14:11] Thea Glassman: Well, I have to ask you as a being on Twitter and seeing this did you by any chance see Chris Colfer today? You see Chris Colfer posted about how his song is now on TikTok or something like that.

[14:43] Andrew: That was um that was like a TikTok trend of like okay I'm everybody is aware of this trend that I'm speaking to but for the one person that is not aware uh there was a trend of the beginning of Rose's turn Glee Cast version by Glee Cast when Kurt says all that work and what did it get me and so like everybody used that as like you know an endpoint for whatever work that they did throughout their life and so then like I think that there is I don't know there's a TikTok radio or TikTok um like stats where like these songs go like are filtered through just like trending TikTok songs.

[15:22] Thea Glassman: And so it was number three on that list which is wild to me and I saw Chris's response and he was like what is going on?

[15:30] Andrew: Yeah yeah well that popped up in my timeline I think I interacted with it and now my Twitter feed is all Glee which I'm I'm happy with yeah um so one thing I feel like is that Glee I feel like feels like such a fever dream, they took so many risks.

[15:47] I think maybe more so than any teen TV show on television.

[15:52] Thea Glassman: Uh Riverdale did some weird stuff.

[15:54] Andrew: But um, I I feel like we all look back and we can all I think there's the emotional resonance that has stayed with us, and for people who were trying to figure out their identity, and Glee was there to kind of have uh relationships like Bland and Kurt and Santana and Brittany, and that was such a when you didn't see stuff like that on television, that was really important.

[16:17] Thea Glassman: But also it was so wacky in such an unapologetic way.

[16:21] Andrew: And I feel like when I see conversations about it, people are still talking about like did that plot line happen? What do we think about it now? Is Mr. Shu inappropriate or just a really good teacher? Like, there's still so many threads to bring up so many years later. Like it just doesn't get old.

[16:38] Thea Glassman: The thing that like I've been really thinking about lately is like I I feel as though maybe uh Glee is like still the really discussed still to this day so much because of like the highs were like so fucking high for this show that it was like don't stop believing everybody remembers where they were, you know.

[16:58] But then it's just like that high is kind of like unachievable as the series goes on, and so the dip in quality as the series goes on through all of the trials and tribulations, you know, behind the scenes and otherwise.

[17:10] Andrew: Um, it's like the it was very fascinating to see like, okay, are we gonna have a peak this this episode or are we gonna have a valley? You know, and and it was it's it's so fascinating to watch it kind of balance that act.

[17:24] Thea Glassman: So particularly towards the end of the show, are we gonna have a peak or are we gonna have a valley? Not only episode to episode, but from like scene to scene.

[17:33] Andrew: Tonally, the show was so all over the place that you would have this A-plot line that was absolutely amazing. That was that was kind of the through line for like half a season that was really engaging, and then you it would be paired with this B plot line that was just completely absurd.

[17:49] Thea Glassman: But I would be interested to know the and again, Andrew and I have talked about this very briefly. If we consider Glee as a franchise, what do you think, or as a product, what do you think is in the future for it? Like for me, I I see Glee at a crossroads.

[18:08] Andrew: I can see it going one way, as in we had six seasons of the show, just let it be. I can see it going another way where it's this is a highly profitable product. Nostalgia is very in, nostalgia sells tickets and gets viewers. Where do you stand on this on the concept of like a Glee boot? What do you think the future of this show is from like your perspective, obviously, as an entertainment journalist?

[18:35] Thea Glassman: Well, I think Andrew, you mentioned this about how uh it's sort of taken on a life of its own that Darren Chris is in Rocky Horror. Uh sorry, not Rocky Horror, what am I talking about? Uh Darren Chris is in the I know. I think I I recently watched Time Warp, and that's where my brain is going.

[18:54] Andrew: Um I think these actors stay alive in in such culturally, they're still so culturally relevant that I think that's gonna help Glee stay alive too.

[19:06] Thea Glassman: Um I think that's and I think like for us, like I mean, for instance, like the two of you are keeping Glee alive, like as long as there's still as long as there are still um these great podcasts dissecting the show and it's gonna keep going on. Like, I I think this is not the show that kind of falls by um the wayside is my sort of optimistic view of it.

[19:31] Andrew: But I'm curious, do you do you think that there's a there's a longer shelf life? It's so fascinating because I feel as though and maybe you felt the same way, Connor and Thea as well, where it's like you're watching the show and it's like obviously everybody and their mom is watching it seasons one through, let's say three, and then there was a dramatic drop-off, you know, once Rachel went to college, and then it's like, what is going on?

[19:53] Thea Glassman: Um, and so I was loyal. I stayed in that relationship with the series.

[20:00] Andrew: Um and then I was watching it till the bitter bitter end, and you know, the final season was airing on Friday nights at 9 p.m., you know, the death slot, I guess you would call it. But, you know, I felt like very alone in that.

[20:14] Thea Glassman: And I just remember for the those final years of the show, as well as like the like the few years that passed that, it ended in 2015. It wasn't until 2020 that people started to talk about Glee again that it was like kind of like a let's push this away.

[20:29] Andrew: And I was ready to.

[20:30] Thea Glassman: And I was just like, let's I'm I have this encyclopedic knowledge about this show that nobody really it that's not um profitable is the wrong word, but just like it's not usable.

[20:43] Andrew: It's not important anymore because like no one's it's not in the cultural eye anymore.

[20:47] Thea Glassman: And so suddenly when it started popping up again, that it's like, oh gosh, this is uh something that I'm really fascinated in.

[20:56] Andrew: I know everything about this show, and so I when that did happen, I was like, I would like to put, you know, my thoughts out there because I feel as though maybe you guys feel the same way that like some of the the thoughts that are that blow up in regard to Glee are Glee curse.

[21:16] Thea Glassman: Matthew Morrison is crazy, um, Mr. Schuster's crazy, all these like kind of frankly just like non-nuanced opinions.

[21:27] Andrew: Sure.

[21:27] Thea Glassman: Um, that I'm like, okay, I have so many other things, and Connor, you do as well with your podcast that it's like we have so many other things to add. We can like really dissect this show.

[21:36] Andrew: Sure.

[21:37] Thea Glassman: And the thing is, so many people are so embarrassed about this, but I make no apologies. I take Glee so seriously, and this show has genuinely, in so many ways, big and small, completely and utterly changed my life.

[21:53] Andrew: I I so distinctly remember being 15 years old and watching a scene between Kurt and his dad, and literally staring at my parents in peripheral vision to see how they would react to that scene, being a gay closeted teenager.

[22:10] Thea Glassman: Like the show is the same exact experience.

[22:12] Andrew: Yeah, the show is so so so important to me. It's so moving. So all of this, and I think when once you pull back the bells and the whistles from the show, all of the show is the thesis of the show, I think, is just about arts education, being yourself, trying to figure out who you are in the world and where you fit in.

[22:30] Thea Glassman: And so when I see all of the dialogue around the show, like Andrew mentioned, the Glee curse, etc. Problematic cast members, blah blah blah blah blah. I'm like, but okay, fine, but like I the show still really helped me, as did those actors.

[22:47] Andrew: And I think Andrew and I came of an age as well when we were kind of the first generation where we simply weren't just watching the TV show every week.

[22:55] Thea Glassman: Like social media had come in, like we were invested in these people's lives. They were posting pictures every day. We were interacting with them. We bought the music. We went to the tour. We like read the like we read the fan facts. We were doing the we were putting in the hours.

[23:12] Andrew: And I I this is a good segue, actually, and I hope you don't mind me bringing this up.

[23:17] Thea Glassman: I here's a fun fact about me. I'm a big crier, but one thing I do not do, I do not cry when I read.

[23:31] Andrew: And I've got a pull quote here that I'm gonna read out if it's okay. I'm obviously not gonna read out the entire thing.

[23:37] Thea Glassman: Let's just read it. Let's just read it together.

[23:41] Andrew: This this, but this is why this is so beautiful to me.

[23:45] Thea Glassman: And I literally, it was a long day, and I was in my room at the end of the day, and it was a moment, and I a single tear rolled down my face. But this is from the book where you were uh wrapping the book up towards the end, and you said um, in that moment we were brought together by a piece of pop culture history that had defined our teen years for a wonderful stretch of time, it felt like we were back to the best arts of high school, sitting in someone's parents' living room, deep in a sleeping bag, watching TV and talking late into the night.

[24:18] Andrew: The magic was alive and well.

[24:20] Thea Glassman: When I tell you, I was literally bawling crying. I was so moved by that because I think that short paragraph in a way perfectly perfectly encapsulates why the three of us right now are sitting here talking about this. Do you know what I mean?

[24:38] Andrew: Yeah.

[24:38] Thea Glassman: Yeah, I think it's so uh because it's like for instance, the two of you found each other through Glee is I imagine you didn't know each other before that.

[24:48] Andrew: Connor is fully in Ireland.

[24:50] Thea Glassman: Yeah, there's no other reason for us to see that is what is so incredible to me.

[24:56] Andrew: And and part of that from that poll quote is I had gone to this bachelorette party uh and nobody really knew each other except for the bride, of course.

[25:04] Thea Glassman: And you know, you're always a little bit nervous before those parties, like how is what's that social dynamic gonna be like? But turned out we all loved the OC.

[25:11] Andrew: So we just put on the OC, and it was suddenly everybody had such strong opinions.

[25:17] Thea Glassman: Whatever, 15 years later, everybody hated the same characters. Some people were shipping Russ and Ryan and some weren't. It was, and it's so the passion that we still had for it was so moving to me.

[25:29] Andrew: And uh just a little bit on the point of this whole idea of the the Glee curse and and kind of the dialogue that has I think overshadowed the importance of Glee and what should be talked about.

[25:40] Thea Glassman: This was the chapter I was most nervous to send like interview requests for.

[25:44] Andrew: Um, because I I wanted to so strongly emphasize that I was not, this was not like a tell all, like trying to, and I I think there was a lot of uh hesitation was I think what I came uh came up against was they didn't know what kind of story about Glee I was going to tell.

[26:02] Thea Glassman: And I mean it's possible maybe maybe the two of you have experienced this when you're sending out interview requests.

[26:07] Andrew: Yeah.

[26:07] Thea Glassman: Um, because I think there has the conversation has sort of gone into a into a darker uh tabloid-y space.

[26:15] Andrew: Yeah.

[26:16] Thea Glassman: Well, that's no, definitely.

[26:18] Connor: Go ahead, Connor.

[26:19] Andrew: I was just gonna say that's really interesting that you say that because I don't know. We've never talked about this, but maybe I should just say it now.

[26:26] Connor: Probably a year and a half ago, two years ago, both Andrew and I were approached separately to be part of a documentary about Glee that was that was painted out to be a celebration of fans and about what the show means to us and stuff like that.

[26:42] Andrew: And we both separately had an hour and a half interview with a lovely lady who was asking us about the show and stuff like that, and then I received a contract to be on it, and I signed the contract, but then they emailed me to say that they didn't need me anymore, and I was like, That's fine.

[27:00] Connor: And then I don't know, maybe a couple of months I can't remember the timeline, Andrew, goes by, and then what is aired is just not what we were told we were getting involved in.

[27:11] Andrew: So actually it was a blessing in disguise.

[27:13] Connor: Um like we weren't even like a made aware of, and there were other um folks that have been on the podcast as well, Glee podcasters and fans and otherwise who have you know had similar conversations with this lovely woman by all means.

[27:26] Andrew: Um, but we were we were under the impression that you know this was uh a celebration of the things that we talk about, you know.

[27:32] Thea Glassman: We don't talk about like the the things that are obvious, I won't even repeat them.

[27:38] Andrew: Um, that this this price of Glee documentary chose to spotlight.

[27:43] Connor: I did watch it. I know that maybe people will be mad at me for watching it, but I'm just like it's Glee cleaning.

[27:49] Andrew: I watched it too, but we were approached for it, so of course we were gonna watch it.

[27:52] Thea Glassman: Do you know what I mean?

[27:53] Andrew: Right.

[27:53] Thea Glassman: I was just like, I wanna I don't know, I wanna th see what this is all about, and I was it was I don't know, I just like left the the viewing as like that was kind of like a waste of time for me.

[28:06] Andrew: This was I didn't I didn't gain anything from it.

[28:09] Thea Glassman: This is all information that I feel like I already knew, and the stuff that I didn't know just kind of made me upset.

[28:14] Andrew: So I didn't didn't need to know all of that.

[28:17] Thea Glassman: So yeah.

[28:19] Andrew: Was this just basically all focusing on the the sad dark parts of Glee?

[28:25] Thea Glassman: Was that sort of the whole thing?

[28:26] Andrew: Yeah, but again, like it's the conversation was so lovely.

[28:30] Thea Glassman: Allison and I talked with this woman, and it was just like talking about our experiences with the show and what it meant to us, and you know, talking like how our relationship as well.

[28:40] Andrew: Like Allison and I it came out of Glee, you know, like she was wearing a Darren Chris shirt, and I was just like, oh my god, there is an in, and so all this years later she's my best friend, and so and also like the podcast growing out of it, and so like none of any of that was like found not just mine, it was just like for anybody.

[28:57] Thea Glassman: Yeah, it was pitched was it was basically pitched was theater, like it was gonna be like a documentary, like the TV documentary version of your book.

[29:06] Andrew: That that's what it was kind of basically pitched was like it was it's a celebration of fandom, but just this TV show, and we we know it changed so many people's lives, and I was kind of thinking to myself, this is gonna be so good.

[29:18] Connor: Um I will never forget that Zoom conversation, and um it's such a shame. I and I feel like in retrospect, I don't know what you think, Andrew, but I feel like they approached us to just try to get information out of us, i.e. research questions and I feel I don't know. I felt after we found everything out about the documentary, I was like, I feel like they were just like kind of covering their basis of like we did talk to the fans, see? Like here's a recorded conversation that we had with with Andrew and Allison and Connor, and we we talked you know for hours about how much the show meant to us, but the product that we finalized was not that at all. So that's how I felt.

[30:01] Andrew: Yeah, there was an ickiness. I remember reading about it and I had an icky feeling.

[30:06] Connor: Yeah. It's not worth I will say to like all the the people listening that like you might be like oh like maybe I should watch this like it's not even worth checking out. It's generally like we we did the recon for you. It's not it's not worth it.

[30:22] Thea Glassman: Do you have do you have anything the then when you were writing the chapter dedicated to Glee in the book like what would you say I'm sure there was stuff obviously as a fan of the show and as a writer and a consumer of the show that you knew but was there anything that was kind of um surprising to you that you found out about that like the making of it?

[30:41] Thea Glassman: Yes I think talking to the writers of Glee was so fascinating because that like how how does one do this how do they make this happen? Um and that I think those were so it was so different because I I spoke to the writers from a lot of uh teen TV shows and there were some overlaps in the fact that a lot of the Glee writers talked about how this was their chance to kind of get high school right and you know a lot of them had tough they some of them had tough times in high school and this was they got to go into this room and relive the really difficult times and maybe write different endings for it. Or relive the difficult times and have the same ending and in and like um there was one writer who Santana's coming out story was her own coming out story.

[31:24] Thea Glassman: I believe it's Allie Adler right yes Allie Adler yes exactly and that was so moving to hear that she really down to certain lines of dialogue were was actually what happened between um her and her relative. Um and my interview with her, one other little like fascinating nugget was this idea she was she was assigned to write um a scene around uh around the world girls. And so she kind of sat down and and dreamed up this wild scenario and just kind of like sent it off.

[31:56] Thea Glassman: And then the next day she went into the gymnasium and the whole there's a huge crane. They had just brought this little nugget of an idea. Uh they had just realized it, and she said it was the most surreal uh experience.

[32:07] Connor: Yeah, I know. And one of my personal favorite performances from the show, what in a just like in an I don't know, just like the her Britney just walking through the the hallways into the choir room and then ending in the auditorium like chills, even thinking about it.

[32:22] Connor: Um Thea, we will we will get to Glacketting. I do want to give context for all the for myself as as well as the listeners. How did Glee initially um come into your life? I'm curious.

[32:33] Thea Glassman: Oh, um, I was in college and I think I was on YouTube and I saw uh time warp yeah when they were doing um Rocky Horror, and I was like, what is this? Like why? I was so like riveted. Um and then I I just started, you know, on YouTube where you start to go down a hole. I just watched everything.

[32:48] Thea Glassman: Um, and then I think I became I started watching it every week with my um with my friends. I remember there's a maybe people remember this was called Fashion of Glee Dots.

[33:05] Connor: Oh, you do not need to explain that like that.

[33:10] Thea Glassman: And so when bought all as many clothes as I could like that, some of them were pricey, yeah.

[33:15] Thea Glassman: There's some of them were pricey. I loved when they did kind of like urban outfitters. They did a couple of anthropology. Um I I looked like a a poor man's Quinn Fabray, some of the things that I was writing.

[33:29] Thea Glassman: Um and yeah, and then I I only went to one of the the Glee Live on tour, but that was like if that felt like you're seeing the Beatles, that was one of the wildest experiences.

[33:39] Connor: Yeah. I know. I'm still so jealous this day of anybody that was able to go because I was like, I didn't have anybody to go with.

[33:46] Thea Glassman: And so I'm like, I'm just I so jealous of anybody that got to go.

[33:50] Connor: But obviously YouTube exists. Live vicariously through people like y'all. Um I'm curious with the with the Glacket in mind, Thea, um, what do you think makes the best song on Glee? Like what are the elements that we're looking for today?

[34:05] Thea Glassman: Okay. Um, so I think a couple of things. Uh if you feel exuberant while listening to it, um the goose goose pimples, and you find yourself kind of beaming, uh, that's always a good sign for a Glee song.

[34:24] Thea Glassman: Um, we're not gonna have a visual for it, but if someone in the audience is disgruntled while the person is singing the song, like someone's in, you know, when they're in the choir room and like someone's performing and someone's pissed in the audience and exchanging looks, that's always kind of a classic uh Glee song.

[34:44] Thea Glassman: I tend to sort of gravitate towards the more optimistic ones. Like I I think I'm a little bit of a sucker for one an end scene where they're all in the um auditorium and they're dancing about. But that's just me.

[34:58] Thea Glassman: So I think around yeah, those are sort of some of my prerequisites. Do you have a like definitive favorite winner of your Glacket? Best song on Glee for you.

[35:06] Thea Glassman: Um damn it. Uh so many to choose from. I'm so sorry. Really hard-hitting questions here.

[35:17] Connor: This is so yeah, I came prepared with three, so now I'm gonna try to narrow it down because I had a hard time.

[35:23] Thea Glassman: So I'll say my contenders.

[35:25] Thea Glassman: Um I would say "Grow on Fire."

[35:28] Connor: Okay.

[35:29] Thea Glassman: Um, I lived.

[35:32] Connor: Um, okay.

[35:35] Thea Glassman: Uh this is also like real deep cut and probably not a fan favorite.

[35:40] Thea Glassman: This is a new year.

[35:42] Connor: Yeah.

[35:42] Thea Glassman: Oh my gosh.

[35:44] Connor: We're going for the deep cut.

[35:46] Thea Glassman: I like it.

[35:47] Thea Glassman: I love that.

[35:49] Thea Glassman: Yes.

[35:50] Thea Glassman: Yeah. So I I'm sorry I can't pick between those three, but yeah, I would say they're all I'll give it a tie.

[35:56] Connor: I love all of those options.

[35:58] Connor: I'm obsessed.

[35:59] Thea Glassman: Yeah, because like they, I don't know, they're not like they're so seldomly discussed, but like they're good.

[36:05] Thea Glassman: They're great songs.

[36:07] Connor: Um do you have on the flip-flop side definitive worst song on Glee for you?

[36:13] Thea Glassman: Uh I okay. I I was not a big fan of any of the mashups. I'm sorry.

[36:20] Thea Glassman: I know. I I liked someone like you, rumor has it was the one mashup I really liked, but I know this is so controversial.

[36:27] Thea Glassman: There was no other mashup that I wait.

[36:30] Connor: What was it about the the mashups that didn't land for you?

[36:33] Thea Glassman: I just those are no I I like to revisit songs from the show, and like I never really care to revisit the mashups.

[36:40] Thea Glassman: Um I know this, I know I'm starting some drawing.

[36:44] Connor: No, we're throwing a wrench into the Glackett.

[36:46] Thea Glassman: I kind of am obsessed with this, yeah.

[36:48] Connor: How are how are mashups doing generally on the Glackett?

[36:53] Thea Glassman: I feel like we don't talk about that enough.

[36:55] Connor: I feel like the mashups are doing well.

[36:58] Thea Glassman: It's been a while since I've like checked on specifically on the on the mashups.

[37:02] Thea Glassman: But I feel like as a rule with with the Glack as we were going through it as we continue to go through it.

[37:08] Thea Glassman: It's like I always at least tend to go toward the more interesting choice with the song.

[37:14] Thea Glassman: And so the mashups obviously cover that ground.

[37:18] Connor: So we'll see.

[37:19] Connor: Thea this is very fun.

[37:21] Connor: I wanna thank you both for moving "Runjoy Run" forward.

[37:26] Thea Glassman: I listened to that.

[37:27] Connor: Yes.

[37:27] Connor: Thank you.

[37:28] Connor: It did it for your I mean it had to it had to go through yes it is kind of do you know when when Thea gave the answer there of two of her favorite songs being "I Lived" and "This Is the New Year" and it's kind of like a side point but I do think it's kind of outstanding.

[37:43] Connor: You know props to um Adam Anders and team like to do those songs on a TV schedule and to have a cast of like 12 to 15 people sing a line each like it's mind but it somehow sounds great.

[37:59] Thea Glassman: It's kind of mind blowing crazy the uh I interviewed Tate Donovan who was Jimmy on the OC and then he went on to be a director on Glee and he was just he had directed the kids on the OC and he directed the kids on Glee and he said he it was like a world of difference in terms of the work ethic um

[37:59] Thea Glassman: oh really the kids on Glee were so diligent and were so hard working it I think when he was working on the OC there was a little bit more there was some stuff going on.

[38:30] Connor: Yeah yeah, so he was very um he was a fun one to talk to.

[38:35] Andrew: Yeah.

[38:35] Connor: Gosh.

[38:35] Connor: Do you have any do you have any Glackett grievances that you want to talk before we get into your first song?

[38:42] Thea Glassman: Maybe "Here's to Us."

[38:43] Thea Glassman: I thought I I justice for "Here's to Us."

[38:47] Thea Glassman: That was a that was a that was against hung up.

[38:50] Thea Glassman: That was a diff that was a difficult competition, but I think that ultimately we went with hung up for the Tina representation in realm three.

[38:58] Connor: Right.

[38:58] Thea Glassman: So that makes sense.

[38:59] Thea Glassman: But you know what? Just I outside of the context of that competition.

[39:04] Thea Glassman: A lot of people really hate that song, "Here's to Us."

[39:07] Thea Glassman: And I don't necessarily understand it.

[39:10] Thea Glassman: I like it.

[39:11] Connor: It's good.

[39:12] Thea Glassman: I like it too.

[39:15] Connor: Represent.

[39:15] Thea Glassman: Representative.

[39:16] Thea Glassman: Represent here too.

[39:17] Thea Glassman: Shout out to "Here's Us."

[39:18] Thea Glassman: I know you're listening, baby girl.

[39:22] Connor: Um, okay.

[39:24] Connor: Going into first song.

[39:27] Thea Glassman: Okay.

[39:28] Thea Glassman: From the Beatles episode in season five.

[39:31] Thea Glassman: The second one to be specific.

[39:34] Thea Glassman: Um as I get it ready.

[39:38] Thea Glassman: This could go either way for me, so I am I'm excited.

[39:45] ♪ Musical number: "Something" — performed by Sam Evans ♪

[42:12] Connor: I know Connor, we talked a lot of smack about Sam specifically, uh, Sam Molo's in the last episode.

[42:21] Connor: Um, I guess more generally, just the male songs on this show.

[42:26] Connor: Um I like this one for the record, but I'm curious.

[42:30] Connor: Who wants to start us in the discourse for for something?

[42:33] Thea Glassman: I will start by saying I I remember that relationship, I was not particularly like rooting for.

[42:40] Thea Glassman: I don't think that you're alone in that.

[42:41] Connor: I would be surprised if anybody was like, wait a minute, I really wanted Sam to wind up with the school nurse.

[42:50] Thea Glassman: Um I I one one thing I love a dream sequence in Glee, and I think I'm it's getting some extra points uh for a little bit of a dream sequence element to it.

[43:01] Andrew: I agree with Thea.

[43:03] Andrew: I when people talk about the music and the songs in this show, they kind of broadly fall into two camps, i.e., they prefer when it's a musical number that's happening in the reality of the show in the choir room.

[43:16] Andrew: Other people really gravitate towards the dream sequence imaginary ones.

[43:19] Andrew: I like both, but I do love the dream sequence ones.

[43:22] Andrew: I think it's very musical theater, it's very layered, it's very like uh it's very insular kind of, if you know what I mean.

[43:29] Thea Glassman: Um this is when Sam is in his long hair era, which I'm not a massive fan of.

[43:38] Connor: Not alone in that.

[43:39] Connor: Yeah, I'm just gonna put that out there.

[43:41] Andrew: Also, I want to say that I really, really like this.

[43:48] Andrew: Which is going to be a surprise to many listeners who've been listening to this podcast as of late.

[43:55] Thea Glassman: The only point I made about Court Over Street is, and it's not just him, is that he is a very good singer, obviously. He's a much better singer than I will ever be. But he just sounds like every other guy on American Idol with a guitar. That's not a criticism, though. That's just like an observation. Whereas with many female vocalists, Leah, for example, is a musical theater singer, but she is kind of has her own unique tone within that genre, as does Amber Riley, as does Naya. They're much more interesting vocalists to listen to. But this I actually really like. And also I think it was really cute. Many people are gonna be surprised again when Jake and Ryder come into it and they're like looking through. I think that that was really cute. I love that.

[44:44] Andrew: Yeah. Same same. I know. I'm really happy about this actually. And also, can I just say I've got written here? There was obviously two Beatles episodes. What artist do you think deserved a tribute episode when Glee was airing?

[44:58] Thea Glassman: Ooh. Oh my god, that's such a good question. I mean, I see I don't want to answer for you, Thea, but I see a certain musical artist poster behind you.

[45:11] Thea Glassman: Yes, okay, so it's I just wish that Glee was if it was on now, I would love a Taylor Swift episode.

[45:21] Andrew: Sure thing.

[45:22] Thea Glassman: Um like of maybe a folklore, uh, Mr. Shoe, Mr. Shoe gives the assignment, like the reinventing yourself assignment. Quinn comes and sings Willow.

[45:35] Andrew: Yeah.

[45:36] Thea Glassman: Yes. And then of course, Rachel will just sing something off of Evermore just because she's Rachel and she does whatever the fuck she wants. I think Rachel is more like Evermore coded personally.

[45:47] Andrew: She is an Evermore girly.

[45:49] Thea Glassman: She is.

[45:50] Andrew: Yeah.

[45:51] Thea Glassman: No, but I completely agree. I would love. I don't know. They only did two Taylor songs, obviously. And I think that a lot of it, well, I mean, like Sam even was supposed to sing I Knew You Were Trouble in season four for the Guilty Pleasures episode. And then like Taylor Swift was like core, like communicated with Taylor and was like, hey, I'm gonna be singing your song. And then all of a sudden, Cord wasn't gonna be singing that song anymore.

[46:15] Andrew: Oh yeah.

[46:16] Thea Glassman: And so I think she, something happened where she pulled the plug. And in that same vein, I mean, just like so many things behind the scenes with this song specifically, because it, I don't know if it's ever been like proven that this was a recycled storyline that was supposed to be given to Corey, who this is uh second episode of season five. Corey died between season four and season five, and I think I'm just like putting the strings together. I don't know again if it was proven, but if um that Finn was supposed to actually be in a relationship with this nurse character played by Phoebe Stroll. And so I have a question for you, Thea, that Glee was so um I guess like they sometimes like uh inspired, not inspired, but like by the trajectory of things that were going on behind the scenes were influencing what was actually happening on the show.

Do you find that in other shows that like the things happening behind the scenes with the actors? Obviously, like an actor dying is a huge thing to work around, but um Glee really was influenced by what was going on behind the scenes. Do you find that in other series?

[47:31] Thea Glassman: Yeah, I think and sometimes from just a practical standpoint, and there's uh Dawson's Creek. Um according to the showrunner, James Vanderbeek and Joshua Jackson were not particularly getting along behind the scenes. So as such, Pacy and Dawson were written out of scenes together.

[47:50] Andrew: Yeah.

[47:50] Thea Glassman: Um and so, which actually lent itself to some really interesting territory because that created this. I mean, the love triangle was already in place, but it created an interesting dynamic between the three performers. Um so that was one, that was one. Um I think the thing that I found the most was that it was a lot of it was influenced by the writer's own personal stories. That was sort of a big one.

[48:16] Andrew: Um that without go ahead. How does Ryan Murphy in your head? I don't know how much consideration you've given to this differ from other showrunners in the way that he crafts his shows, or is that kind of more nuanced and kind of difficult to tell?

[48:38] Thea Glassman: I think something I'm trying to remember who told me this, but someone talked about the different roles that um like Brad Falchuk um and Ryan, like what they sort of gravitated towards. And for Ryan, like style and aesthetics were really big to him, which was not really something that I feel like I heard about from other showrunners. Like, is this big enough? Is this big like is this bold enough? Um, and I think that you see that so much, it reflects so much in Glee. Um they get splashy and big and daring in the aesthetics.

[49:11] Andrew: Yeah.

[49:11] Thea Glassman: I mean, and like it's I don't I like personally, like I have my big three shows that like I feel I could talk for hours on end. Glee, Lost, and Orange is the New Black are three shows that I'm like fully obsessed with, and I don't really have a lot of room for other new shows to come into my life. But like watching the, you know, the first two seasons of Glee specifically, and those first 44 episodes are so incredible, and they were all written by just three people. How like rare is that like a rare occurrence?

[49:43] Andrew: I'm not sure.

[49:44] Thea Glassman: In your like extremely rare, yeah, yeah. Um and I think that it just became too much. I I didn't encounter or haven't really encountered a single show where there wasn't a writer's room that was built up. Um there's there's certain like I think Gilmore Girls, Amy Sherman Paladino and Dan Paladino, they had very singular voices, and I think that was um but yeah, no, that was really unusual. I think it was just by the fact that just the show started to get so big that they kind of decided to um build out a writer's room. But I feel like you still you still hear Ryan Murphy's voice in a very specific way. Like I feel like his voice very much carries on um even when he wasn't the main one writing the show.

[50:30] Andrew: Because have you ever tried the thought experiment, Andrew, when it comes to I th I don't know who it was that came up with it, maybe it was Emily Nussbaum. I might be completely off course here, but it was some TV critic that came up with this concept of the three Glees, in which if you go through the first two seasons of Glee and you put an X beside the episodes that you really enjoy, and then you tally them up at the end, there's going to always be one writer that you kind of gravitate towards.

[51:02] Connor: I've never even heard of that.

[51:04] Thea Glassman: Yeah, if you Google I th I I'm I'm crediting this to Emily Nussbaum, but I might be completely wrong, so sincere apologies, but we can fact check that. Just Google and everyone at home Google the three Glees and try it out for yourself. So Ian Brennan is mine.

[51:20] Connor: I was gonna guess episodes co come back for me just because I think he approaches Glee as this kind of darker show about these sad people looking for an out. And then if you look at the Ryan Murphy penned episodes in the first two seasons, he mostly pens like the spectacle episodes, like the Madonna tribute episode. Brad Falchuk obviously writes the more emotionally centered episodes, a lot of the stuff between Kurt and Bert, but obviously they all had their own in on everything. Um I feel like it's really interesting because I so much is said about Ryan Murphy just personally, and um Andrew and I have talked about this in the past that when Ryan appeared on And That's What You Really Miss, the podcast hosted by Jenna Ushkowitz and Kevin McHale, I thought he was so brilliant to listen to in that episode, and I think it is such a shame because I think he is I genuinely think he's extraordinary, and I think that gets lost through his own fault because he just he gets ahead of himself and he's just so distracted by the next shiny thing, but yet he's given this.

Like, I was watching an episode of Glee season two, maybe a week ago, and I was just like, This is so good. Like, this is so good, you know, and sometimes we very much get away from that sometimes, I think.

[52:42] Andrew: Yeah.

[52:43] Thea Glassman: I mean, like, even reading your book, Thea, like it's I was really there was one moment that really caught me off guard was that I believe that in Santana's coming out episode I Kiss a Girl in season three, that like the director, I believe, like didn't want Santana to cry because they wanted the audience at home to cry. And then Ryan came in with a specific note, like, why didn't we get Naya crying? Like that was actually a bad note. Like he it was so specific that like I remember in college, like he did a sit-down with someone at the New York Times just like talking about his career. And as he was talking, I was like, I was hearing um Sugar Mata, Vanessa Lengies' character, all throughout. I was like, this is like the way he was like, just like every once in a while is like, oh, there's sugar. Like he's so specific about everything. And I think the specificity is why the show really worked in so many ways.

[53:47] Thea Glassman: It just makes me think also the way that it could sometimes the specificity could almost be like a little bit hurtful to the detriments, for sure.

[53:53] Andrew: Yeah, like you could, yeah, because you got so specific with insults and whatnot. That was something that kind of stood out to me as that ended up being, I can't remember whose I think it was Santana's monologue to Kurt, yeah, and it was it was rough. Um I find that ever in any other shows that they like write, like they're insults, like we're not gonna like beat around the bush. They're insults at the actual actor's attributes. Do you find that in other shows?

[54:22] Thea Glassman: I think that was kind of unique to Glee. I'm trying to think of other um sort of physical appearances, like talking about physical appearances in that way. We just watched a sand performance, like the fact that the trouty mouth, which is like, would you even be self-conscious about the size of your mouth if it weren't for this? And now you're kind of like, this is a stamp that you have for the rest of your life. Trouty mouth. So I remember listening to an episode of Office Ladies, and Jenna Fischer talked about a line one of the writers wrote um about Pam having a very shrill voice, and she took a pause and was like, Oh, do I have a shrill voice? Sort of oops, like maybe that is an accurate observation.

[55:03] Andrew: Yeah.

[55:04] Thea Glassman: Gosh.

[55:05] Thea Glassman: Yeah. Hey, I would I I don't have what it takes. Connor, you're an actor. I I don't know how you could constantly do it in the public eye and all of that. It's crazy. I would just cry, I'd go home and cry.

[55:16] Andrew: Right. It must be it must have been a bizarre experience of them, particularly because most of this cast were so green, relatively. They had some of them had done some work prior, you know, Leah was a very successful Broadway actress, but like nothing to this level where there was kind of that power dynamic at play too, and it's like, do any of them really want to speak up? I know that um Amber at one point, uh Amber Riley at one point said that she complained about something to someone and she was kind of met with you are not a star and you need to sit down and check yourself. So it was this really, and it's really interesting, and I think that um there was a big learning curve for them all there.

And I do think that the point Ryan made on Jenna and Kevin's podcast when he was on was a very interesting, that up to that point he had been a showrunner, but he wasn't a showrunner of this product that was gonna become this multi-million dollar conglomerate that like included music and tours and merchandise, and like this had just never really happened before. And so I like to lead with Grace. I do not know this man, I've never met him. I'm sure he's imperfect like all of us, but like I just choose to kind of leave that to the to the wayside, if that makes any sense.

[56:33] Andrew: Yeah.

[56:33] Thea Glassman: I mean, we're audience members at the end of the day.

[56:35] Andrew: It's yeah, and we're receiving the content and whatever I guess sins committed, you know.

[56:42] Thea Glassman: I don't know. It's it's hard to because like I've been met before by people that are like, oh, how can you get mad at you know someone in my personal life for doing an act of unkindness and uh like abuse, really that it's like you can still like watch Glee with Leah Michelle, and I'm like, wow, like you are you're tying these connections together with very loose thread, I feel.

[57:09] Andrew: I mean, well that and we would we would be in a position in which we just wouldn't be able to enjoy anything then, right?

[57:15] Thea Glassman: Like there's there's someone problematic linked to everything, yeah.

[57:18] Andrew: You know, like well, and it's I feel like more and more cast members, it's it's cool to see that they're starting to be open about their experiences. I feel like as years have gone on, especially I feel like the Glee cast has been pretty candid about what their experiences were like on set. And I feel like those are the voices I've been most interested to hear over the years. I mean, there was like a few um things in your moments in your book that I was like, oh wow. Like I cannot believe that Vanessa Lengies, for example, um, was sharing the information that she was.

[57:53] Thea Glassman: Yeah, you know.

[57:55] Thea Glassman: Yeah, you always so appreciate it when people are honest, and yeah.

[58:01] Andrew: Right. Means a lot.

[58:03] Thea Glassman: I just pulled a song that I personally am very, very obsessed with. So I'm very excited to watch.

[58:11] Connor: Here we go.

[58:13] ♪ Musical number: "Something" — performed by The Glee Cast ♪

[58:32] Andrew: He broke his own heart as I watched as he tried to read.

[58:53] Andrew: And that was the day that I promised I'd never sing of love if it does not exist.

[59:03] Andrew: But darling, you are the only exception.

[59:38] Andrew: But I can't let go of what's in front of me here.

[59:45] Andrew: I know you're leaving in the garden when you wake up.

[59:50] Andrew: Leave me with some kind of proof it's not a dream.

[1:00:02] Andrew: You are the only exception.

[1:00:07] Andrew: You are the only exception.

[1:00:12] Andrew: You are the only exception.

[1:00:17] Andrew: You are the only exception.

[1:00:33] Andrew: And I home away to believe it.

[1:00:46] Andrew: My way to believe.

[1:00:51] Andrew: It hits every single time.

[1:00:54] Andrew: I'm literally crying.

[1:00:55] Andrew: I'm literally crying.

[1:00:57] Andrew: Love this performance so much.

[1:00:59] Andrew: Like I literally can watch it any day of the week, any hour of the day.

[1:01:03] Andrew: Um I just need to start off by like just giving my reasoning for why I love this song.

[1:01:10] Andrew: It's at the end of the Britney Spears tribute episode.

[1:01:14] Andrew: That Rachel's like, hey, I'm gonna sing a Paramore song, which I feel as though a lot of folks.

[1:01:21] Andrew: Um Kevin and Jenna, I'm looking at you, give flack the fact that like they're suddenly doing a Paramore song at the end of the Britney Spears tribute episode.

[1:01:31] Andrew: Like that's ridiculous, but I feel as though that is exactly what Glee is.

[1:01:36] Andrew: Like, of course, they would kind of like subvert the expectation because like what's like a I'm thinking like in the in the second Britney Spears tribute episode, Marley sings "Everytime" by Britney Spears, and it's like kind of like accomplishing the same purpose of "Only Exception."

[1:01:52] Andrew: And so like that was up for grabs for Rachel to sing in this episode, which would have met the theme.

[1:01:58] Andrew: But she does "Only Exception," and it works so well for me.

[1:02:02] Andrew: It is my personal favorite Rolo, and like quite possibly one of my like top three songs from the series.

[1:02:12] Andrew: I'm very happy that it's in this matchup.

[1:02:14] Andrew: I have I feel confident that it will win.

[1:02:17] Andrew: Um, but uh I just love it.

[1:02:20] Andrew: And also the fact, and I'll include this in the carousella video of this, but like driving from New York to Boston um two years ago, I believe, to see Lea Michele in concert, and she was doing that thing that she does at her concerts where she's like, who what's everyone's favorite Rachel song?

[1:02:35] Andrew: And so like my hand just like springs up and she called me, and I was like "Only Exception."

[1:02:40] Andrew: And you can hear me, you can hear me like go like, oh like she starts singing.

[1:02:47] Andrew: Like, I was like so overcome with like emotion that like the fact that like she wasn't listening to listening to me, interpreting my words, um, and just like giving it was just like an Andrew personal concert that she was providing for me.

[1:03:05] Andrew: And so, like I get emotional in thinking about it, that that wasn't even an experience that even happened.

[1:03:10] Andrew: I don't want to set you, like you guys are obviously able to have any thoughts that you have about this song, but just be nice.

[1:03:20] Thea Glassman: I love this song so much.

[1:03:22] Thea Glassman: Any criticism, just oh no.

[1:03:25] Andrew: Who wants to add zero criticism?

[1:03:27] Andrew: Okay.

[1:03:28] Andrew: AI, by the way, own all of the clothing that Rachel was wearing in that uh that was my Rachel era.

[1:03:35] Andrew: Um there was this one moment I always remember from that scene, and it was um Finn talking to Quinn and Santana, and then he kind of leaves them and he walks over and takes Rachel's hand, and that is just Finn in a nutshell.

[1:03:50] Andrew: It makes my heart like swoon, and yeah.

[1:03:54] Thea Glassman: Yeah.

[1:03:56] Thea Glassman: Gosh, I'm obsessed.

[1:03:58] Thea Glassman: I was literally almost like I was tearing up during this song.

[1:04:02] Thea Glassman: And I think it's just because the conversation that preceded it, we were talking about why these shows are so important to us.

[1:04:08] Thea Glassman: But this just really brings me back.

[1:04:09] Thea Glassman: I'm so so moved by it for so many reasons.

[1:04:13] Andrew: Yeah.

[1:04:14] Andrew: I think Rachel Berry as a character, there's oh there's so much kind of um dialogue and discourse around her character, and uh granted, I think it's all very fair.

[1:04:26] Andrew: I was in so many ways exactly like her when I was in school.

[1:04:31] Andrew: I was perhaps not as nowhere near as talented.

[1:04:34] Andrew: I was incredibly earnest, and I was a complete and utter loser.

[1:04:39] Andrew: Um I was probably not the most popular person in school.

[1:04:43] Andrew: I was often bullied and like teased.

[1:04:46] Andrew: And one would think that being a gay teenager, you would resonate more with Kurt, but in your book, Thea, I think you interview a guy, I think his name was Michael.

[1:04:58] Andrew: I might I might be getting the name wrong.

[1:05:01] Andrew: And uh he said the same thing.

[1:05:03] Andrew: Her Rachel Berry's earnestness and like and I feel sometimes I feel so cheap and so I feel so redundant when I say that she is one of my favourite characters on Glee.

[1:05:14] Andrew: I will never say she is my favorite character because I feel like when you're so knee deep in this show, it's very hard to pick.

[1:05:19] Andrew: But she is so like she was so me at that age, and I'm profoundly moved by by whenever she sings like this because she made really horrific mistakes, she does incredibly stupid things, she is very selfish, she often only thinks about herself, yet they're inside though there's this kind of lost lonely person.

[1:05:51] Andrew: But yet she's the one front and center.

[1:05:53] Andrew: And oh, I just got chills thinking about it.

[1:05:55] Andrew: So this song, like I was literally almost in tears watching that.

[1:05:59] Andrew: Like I just love it so much.

[1:06:00] Thea Glassman: Yeah, I I really love it.

[1:06:02] Thea Glassman: I obviously spoke circles around it.

[1:06:05] Thea Glassman: But Andrew, one of the quotes that I pulled from your art like chapter about Glee that really really stuck out to me that I would like maybe a little bit more context for.

[1:06:28] Thea Glassman: I think I so I started the the book starts in 1990.

[1:06:33] Thea Glassman: Um, so I was I was exploring teen television over the course of many, many years.

[1:06:42] Thea Glassman: And the uh there was so many, I mean, I don't know if the two of you watched Freaks and Geeks back in the day.

[1:06:50] Thea Glassman: Um yeah, it was like it it lasted only one season, it was canceled.

[1:06:55] Thea Glassman: Um, because the network, it was it was like a young Busy Phillips, young James Franco, young um James um uh Jason Segel, and the network canceled it because they were like, we want pretty people on television, we don't want these, it was all about underdogs.

[1:07:12] Thea Glassman: These were all kids who were bullied, um picked on, they were picked last in gym class.

[1:07:18] Thea Glassman: Um, and the network was like, people don't want to watch those uh these kids on television.

[1:07:24] Thea Glassman: And so they made it, they made it one season and they got pulled off the air.

[1:07:28] Thea Glassman: Um and that to me, I feel like Freaks and Geeks was like what Glee got to be.

[1:07:33] Thea Glassman: Was like it got to, it was it was Freaks and Geeks in a way resurrected and it was made for the people who were not picked first in gym class um and who maybe did had a really difficult high school experience.

[1:07:45] Thea Glassman: Um another show I did was My So-Called Life, which was also canceled after one season because it was about a young girl growing up, and the network thought people don't want to watch a young girl and and and learn like the people don't want to see her go through her struggles with her body image and um and not being liked by the guy and how that affects her self-esteem and her sexuality.

[1:08:08] Thea Glassman: Um, and then that was just swiftly taken off the air.

[1:08:12] Thea Glassman: So it was like real stories about teens were just continuously cut down, and I think Glee was sort of the resurrection of it all.

[1:08:20] Andrew: Yeah.

[1:08:20] Andrew: Oh, yeah.

[1:08:21] Andrew: That no, that's incredible.

[1:08:22] Andrew: I never even thought about it through that lens.

[1:08:24] Andrew: That's so fascinating.

[1:08:25] Thea Glassman: Um, when it comes down to it, however, "Something" versus "The Only Exception."

[1:08:33] Thea Glassman: I am voting for "The Only Exception."

[1:08:36] Andrew: Where are y'all falling?

[1:08:38] Connor: I don't know.

[1:08:38] Connor: There's something about "The Only Exception."

[1:08:41] Connor: So I feel like there, you guys.

[1:08:44] Connor: There's my favorite era of Rachel and Finn as well.

[1:08:50] Connor: So I have a very soft spot for that, so I I'm also "The Only Exception."

[1:08:53] Andrew: Perfect.

[1:08:54] Andrew: I'm so glad we're aligned.

[1:08:56] Andrew: Um, I'm so moved by that genuinely.

[1:08:59] Andrew: Like, I literally that was so sometimes I'm shocked by what song comes out because it just brings you back to the moment.

[1:09:05] Connor: Do you know what I mean?

[1:09:06] Connor: Yes.

[1:09:07] Connor: Oh, that guy's me a little bit, I won't lie.

[1:09:09] Connor: And it's bittersweet, too.

[1:09:11] Andrew: Like it is.

[1:09:12] Andrew: Yes, yes.

[1:09:13] Andrew: Oh god.

[1:09:15] Andrew: I have um a season three blow that um has like a really fascinating past on the Glackett that we'll discuss.

[1:09:25] Connor: It's all about you, isn't it?

[1:09:27] Andrew: But you know what, big brother?

[1:09:29] Andrew: I'm sick of it.

[1:09:30] Connor: Oh yes.

[1:09:31] Connor: I'm not gonna take it anymore.

[1:09:34] Andrew: Huh.

[1:09:35] Andrew: After all you put me through, you think I despise you.

[1:09:39] Andrew: But in the end, I want to thank you.

[1:09:42] Andrew: Because you made me that much stronger.

[1:09:44] Andrew: Well, I thought I knew you thinking that you were true.

[1:09:50] Andrew: I couldn't trust call your bluff time is up, cause I've had enough.

[1:09:54] Andrew: You were there by my side.

[1:09:56] Andrew: Always down for the ride, but your short ride just came down in flames, cause you showed me how to shave.

[1:10:04] Andrew: Mm-hmm.

[1:10:05] Andrew: After all the stealing and cheating, you'll probably think that I hold reserving for you, but uh, no, no, you're wrong.

[1:10:15] Andrew: Cause if it wasn't for all that you try to do, I wouldn't know just how capable I am to pull through.

[1:10:22] Andrew: So I wanna say thank you, cause it makes me that much stronger, makes me work a little bit harder, and makes me that much wiser.

[1:10:32] Andrew: So thanks for making me a fighter.

[1:10:35] Andrew: Made me learn a little bit faster, made my skin a little bit thicker, and makes me that much smarter.

[1:10:43] Andrew: Thanks for making me a fighter.

[1:10:45] Andrew: How could this man I thought I knew turned out to be a just so cruel?

[1:10:51] Andrew: Could only see the good in you.

[1:10:53] Andrew: Pretended not to see the truth.

[1:10:56] Andrew: You tried to hide your lies, disguise yourself through living in dinner.

[1:11:01] Andrew: But in the end, you'll see you won't stop me.

[1:11:06] Andrew: I am a fighter, and I ain't gonna stop.

[1:11:20] Andrew: Oh yeah, oh yeah.

[1:11:25] Andrew: Fighter wiser.

[1:11:33] Andrew: So thanks for making me a fighter.

[1:11:36] Andrew: Made me learn a little bit faster.

[1:11:38] Andrew: Made my skin a little bit thicker, and makes me that much smarter.

[1:11:44] Andrew: Thanks for making me a fighter.

[1:11:46] Connor: Alright, "Fighter" has a complicated history on the Glackett.

[1:11:51] Connor: Gleeks obviously remember the so emotional versus "Fighter" competition in round one that has been brought up time after time.

[1:12:01] Connor: Um that "Fighter" obviously went through.

[1:12:04] Connor: So emotional did eventually come back, and it is, you know, yet to be pulled to see if it will make it to round three.

[1:12:11] Connor: Um I have a complicated relationship with "Fighter."

[1:12:14] Connor: I don't personally reach for it that much.

[1:12:16] Connor: I think that he sounds incredible, obviously, but I think that I'm blinded by this kind of ridiculous storyline that is only one episode long.

[1:12:27] Thea Glassman: Where do we stand on "Fighter"?

[1:12:29] Thea Glassman: It wasn't as painful as "Somebody That I Used to Know" when they did kind of that uh uh both were cringy.

[1:12:39] Andrew: Uh forgot about the punching bag moment.

[1:12:43] Andrew: Yeah.

[1:12:44] Andrew: Oh yeah.

[1:12:46] Andrew: Oh my god.

[1:12:47] Andrew: I have that in my notes.

[1:12:48] Andrew: Where did the character choice of having Blaine being obsessed with like being a boxer or whatever?

[1:12:54] Andrew: What is that about?

[1:12:57] Thea Glassman: I think that it provides a little bit more characterization.

[1:13:00] Thea Glassman: We've talked circles around this, but like it provides a little bit more characterization for Blaine that I don't think that is um, you know, provided on a platter to the audience.

[1:13:11] Andrew: And so it's like, oh, like Blaine is in a fight club, which we learn in just like an offhand line. And so, like, you can the fandom can like kind of like run to the races with that and be like, wow, that's something really fascinating, and like write fanfiction about it and everything. I'm curious for you, Thea, obviously being like this television aficionado. How does the Glee fandom compare to other fandoms? Is like, are other fandoms as like amassing as Glee is, or where do you where do you think?

[1:13:45] Thea Glassman: So when I when the book was about to be published, I went on the Reddits of every single one of them. Uh uh all seven shows I went on the Reddits. Um, and I wasn't entirely sure what to expect. Um, some were a little quieter than others. Um, I would say the most active were Glee and Dawson's Creek. I felt feel like had a similar amount of like intense enthusiasm. Yeah.

[1:14:13] Andrew: Um, that people were still were were speaking with with the same amount of vigor. Um fascinating that you went to the because the times that I've went to the Glee Reddit and to post about this podcast and otherwise, I feel as though the the fans, and maybe this is for all like television audiences across the board, but I felt they were like kind of more like negative, that they were like being very critical about like the the stuff that was being said in a way that wasn't allowing for any kind of like light to come in. Did you find that with other shows?

[1:14:46] Thea Glassman: That's so interesting. Critical about the plot lines, the characters, or just like the show in general?

[1:14:51] Andrew: Just like I just recall, I and I've stopped doing this, but like I recall just like posting clips from the episodes of this podcast, and like, hey, like this is the episode that we have, and obviously spent hours like doing the interview research, making the clip, whatever, posting it, and it's like all of the comments are just like finding that one negative thing that I'm like, oh, I'm not gonna subject myself to this anymore. Did you find that at all?

[1:15:19] Thea Glassman: That's so interesting. I did not see that, but that's that's so icky. I but it's like yeah, but it's funny because like I feel like the the community, the glee community, the two of you are within. Do you find that or do you find it to be more positive?

[1:15:34] Connor: Well, it's really interesting because I I've never been I've always been a glee fan. I've never really done the fandom thing. I I kind of just stay within my own lane, and I swear to God, without getting too deeply into this, in 2018, Leah Michelle and Darren Chris went on a tour. And I they came to Dublin, and I obviously went to see them, and it was a great experience. And I was I've never said this publicly. Oh my god. I was queuing outside to get into the venue, and this British girl approached me, and she said, and I quote, Are you Connor? And I said, Yes. And she said, Oh, the fandom. Some people really like you and others don't.

[1:15:42] Thea Glassman: Oh my gosh.

[1:15:42] Connor: And I swear to God, there was I was like, wait, I I thought I'd blacked out, I thought I had a stroke.

[1:16:22] Andrew: Yeah.

[1:16:22] Connor: And essentially what had happened was months prior, a tweet of mine about Glee went completely viral. It was something completely innocuous and something just really stupid and silly. And the she knew me, and other people knew me. But you see, I was always a massive Glee fan, but I was never deep in the trenches, if that makes any sense within the fandom. I know everything about it, I can talk about it, I love it, I adore it. I'm on this podcast, I had my own podcast, etc. I'm a big fan. The fand online fandom was never really my thing personally.

[1:16:56] Thea Glassman: Yeah, it's it's such a tricky game, and I think that just like even sharing, as we all have in various forms, like your opinions about art, really. And I feel silly even saying art, you know, be but it is that's what it is, you know, and you subject yourself to the criticism and everything.

[1:17:09] Andrew: Of course.

[1:17:18] Thea Glassman: And even with I found even with the context of this song and with Blaine, Andrew and I have talked at length about Blaine and how he's not necessarily our favorite character. But you know, there are people out there that deeply, deeply, deeply resonate with that character. And I love that. That is so moving. I mean, that's why we're all here. Um, but yeah, there is a certain kind of trepidation because you kind of think, Whoa, are these people gonna like and Andrew? You know this because I had this with my podcast. Are these people gonna hate me? Like, there are some people who who are they're really in deep and they don't understand that things like you can believe two things at once, if that makes any sense.

[1:17:54] Andrew: Yeah, before we get into our what the the come um competitor is for this song, Thea, would you receive any uh critical feedback of your book across the fandoms?

[1:18:07] Thea Glassman: Um, I'm sure I have. I for my own like sanity, I've not looked at the negative reviews.

[1:18:13] Connor: Good for you.

[1:18:14] Thea Glassman: Yeah, I think you're so right. I'm sure there's gonna be a real low point when I do look at it. Um I'm sure, because like I I've I have looked at goodreads, and there's plenty of like like low-star reviews there that I'm sure people are mad at me about various things. Um, so I have but there's something, and I wonder if this perspective will be helpful at all. I feel like the writers behind the show, something that I learned that I found very interesting, was they would go on the platforms after the their episodes would air, yeah, and they would read what the fans were saying, and then their self-esteems would be crushed because fans were like, hate this direction they're going. I hated this, this.

This was stupid. And one person said the perspective she tried to have was okay, but they care. So they're really mad, but they care so deeply about the show and these characters. So that's maybe like one angle to look at it, but I also would like I know I would my self-esteem would be like absolutely hammered if I read any of these reviews.

[1:19:18] Andrew: Yeah.

[1:19:19] Connor: You know it's definitely been go ahead, Connor.

[1:19:22] Andrew: No, I was just gonna say in a way I completely agree with you. Sometimes one would rather someone to have a negative perception of your product or whatever it may be than no opinion at all. You know? And I feel like with the context of this show, the worst thing that the Glee writers decided to do creatively other than the million other things is actually start to go onto Twitter and see what people were saying about it. Because I just think it really completely diluted like everything and there was a point where you could tell that they were literally listening to what the most viral tweet was. You would see it.

[1:19:43] Thea Glassman: Yeah.

[1:19:54] Connor: Like which was they were writing certain scenes like certain lines where it was just like oh you're you're online you know what people are saying and gosh like I mean just like specifically the when Britney and Sam decided to get together in season four and Brittany was like well there's a large like lesbian fan base that I have online that are gonna be really upset when they find out that I'm in a relationship with you and I'm like am I the lesbian fan base online? Are you looking at me? I don't like this.

[1:20:25] Andrew: She like winks at the camera just before you pull the next song I will say I think this has got this has got the potential to be a very difficult competition for me because I do actually reach for this song, and I it's one of my favorite blowers, so I'm really looking forward to this.

[1:20:41] Thea Glassman: Okay.

[1:20:42] Andrew: Very good to know as we get into what it's against.

[1:20:45] Connor: Oh from the final from the final season.

[1:20:49] Andrew: Okay.

[1:20:50] Connor: Um I I feel it's a little bit of a sleeper hit.

[1:20:54] Andrew: Okay.

[1:20:54] Connor: Um we'll discuss, we'll discuss other things.

[1:20:59] Andrew: Here we go.

[1:21:13] ♪ Musical number: "Arthur's Theme" — performed by Glee Cast ♪

[1:23:17] Andrew: Okay, Arthur's theme. Which is surprisingly not the theme of the TV show, Arthur. Um what do we think? I mean, haven't we all haven't we all longingly looked at an ornament of the Statue of Liberty? We've all been there.

[1:23:34] Thea Glassman: We've all been there. And can I just say also, I did spend around seven and a half years of my life talking about how the women are far superior to the men in every single way on this show, which I do stand by. However, let me just say.

[1:24:06] Connor: Making the carousel for me, thank you for the thing.

[1:24:08] Thea Glassman: You are so welcome. I'm here to serve a purpose, and I'm here to do it with style. Um, heavy on the flashbacks in season six. On season five, we love the nostalgia. It's kind of bringing it back. Sometimes I'm like, did they just really want to leave s early that day?

[1:24:23] Andrew: Right, right.

[1:24:24] Thea Glassman: And they were just like, okay, we can just cut to all of these scenes that we actually filmed in New York. Sure.

[1:24:31] Andrew: I was thinking, um, wait, before I say my thoughts, Thea, do you have any thoughts on Arthur's theme?

[1:24:36] Thea Glassman: Um I feel like I I it's so weird going from stronger to that. I feel like what a like little flash. Um I I really um I really love uh when the boys serenate the girls. I also like I get a little yeah, I look a little misty. Um I so I this might be coming in a little bit higher than I thought it would.

[1:25:06] Connor: Yeah, I think it's good. I was thinking while watching this, like talking to a number of the folks that were singing on screen, Marshall Williams, um, Noah Guthrie, Kevin McHale, and you obviously, Thea spoke to a number of the folks from the show. Was it ever like bizarre just like speaking to any of like the cast members from these shows that you're you're so obsessed with?

[1:25:32] Thea Glassman: It was very surreal. I had to try really hard to like keep it together and like put on your journalist um uh put on your journalist hat. But I think like Vanessa Lenji's, because I like I loved her so much. Yes, um, and hearing her talk about uh being in the treble tones and being on stage with Naya and Heather, I feel like inside I was really uh geeking out in a very big way. Um and I think even like I I had sort of similar things with the writers who had written characters who I love so much. So you like hearing Ross Maxwell talk about writing Kurt or writing Blaine and that that's like that they brought these characters to life. I feel like I was um yeah, Peter Peter. I find it difficult almost like it was the learned skill to like tow this line of talking about a show that I know everything inside and out about and like learning, which seems obvious to everybody else, but like until you're in the moment, you don't really feel it. That it's like I can I know so much more about this show than the people that were involved.

[1:26:36] Connor: And did you ever feel that way where it's like I need to remind you that was actually there what happened?

[1:26:43] Thea Glassman: Right. It was almost like sort of it was such a funny experience when sometimes someone would would uh say a character's name completely wrong, um, or like a plot line completely wrong, and you just sort of like blow past it like that. Right, it's not worth unpacking. But it is so funny. So like so many people said how if they were to enter like a trivia contest with fans of the show, the fans would win over them.

[1:27:08] Andrew: Yeah.

[1:27:09] Thea Glassman: Yeah.

[1:27:09] Connor: I imagine like Jenna and Kevin have more of a their memories are probably a lot more up to date. I do find it like Kevin specifically. I really I have a a a certain respect for him for the fact that like, yes, he was obviously such a focal part of the show, like the the only character to be in the first a hundred episodes of of the of the series, and the fact that he's also such a huge fan as well, and then that comes across while listening to his podcast. Um, I just yeah, I love that that it's like no, you were there, but also you have this similarity with me.

[1:27:46] Andrew: Um, this competition, "Fighter" versus "Arthur's Theme."

[1:27:51] Connor: I feel maybe a little bit contested.

[1:27:54] Thea Glassman: I feel like they're in the same area.

[1:27:55] Andrew: Who feels confident in their vote?

[1:27:58] Connor: I feel confident in my vote, and I am more than happy to start this off, should you so wish.

[1:28:03] Andrew: Okay.

[1:28:04] Connor: I will be voting on this occasion for "Fighter."

[1:28:08] Thea Glassman: "Fighter."

[1:28:10] Andrew: Oh man.

[1:28:15] Thea Glassman: I'm gonna advance "Fighter" too. They took a lot of swings with that song. Um, and Glee is all about taking swings. So I'm gonna go "Fighter."

[1:28:25] Andrew: I'll do a little pity. I know that it's like it's frowned upon to do a pity vote, but I'll do a little pity vote for "Arthur's Theme." I think both of them are really great songs. No McGuthrie coming in on the track. I mean, how can I?

[1:28:38] Connor: Oh, yeah, silky smooth, iconic.

[1:28:40] Andrew: And put it on record for all the Blaine stans listening. Connor Burke just voted for a Blaine solo.

[1:28:46] Connor: That did just happen.

[1:28:48] Thea Glassman: Connor, do you hate Blaine?

[1:28:51] Connor: We're not gonna open that can of worms.

[1:28:54] Andrew: Okay. Um, our final competition of the episode, our first song, um, a Santana solo.

[1:29:03] Connor: Oh, here we go.

[1:29:05] Andrew: Where'd you get those?

[1:29:06] Connor: They were autographed by my good friend Janet Reno. She wore them on the day they caught the Unabomber. Deliver these onto Unique. Get him to cram his ham hocks into these platoons and regionals. And we'll be well on our way to a national championship.

[1:29:59] ♪ Musical number: "If I Can't Have You" — performed by Santana ♪

[1:30:47] Andrew: All right, "If I Can't Have You," a Santana solo from "Saturday Night Gleaver." What are our first thoughts here?

[1:30:55] Thea Glassman: A Naya solo is just it hits every time.

[1:30:59] Connor: Yeah, it hits every time.

[1:31:01] Andrew: Connor, what are you thinking?

[1:31:03] Connor: What am I thinking? Again, so moved by this. I don't know what's wrong with me today. Naya Rivera just like a monumental and generational talent. Like what a oh, just love her so much. Um, I'm sorry, I'm so emotional. Um, but she was someone that really just if she was given five seconds of screen time, she just ate it up. And I love this song. I did talk last week, Andrew, about on the episode with the legendary Ian Allred that um I love "Saturday Night Gleaver" too. I love "Saturday Night Gleaver," and it's an episode that's often overlooked, but um this has got a special place in my heart for some reason. I when this was airing, this episode was towards the end of season three, so not only was it kind of ramping up to a season finale, it was ramping up to a finale of a certain era of Glee, and it was when Andrew and I were also like just about to leave school and stuff, so it was very much what those characters were going through.

We were going through as well in some ways. So I just loved this. I love love love it. Her fit, her voice, she worked her ass off on this show. She was yeah, just amazing. I love this song. And I love all the music in this episode as well. I don't think that there's like is there a flop in the bunch? I don't think so.

[1:32:27] Thea Glassman: No, I think they're all fun at least. Even if you don't if you dislike one more than the other, they're all fun, you know?

[1:32:34] Andrew: Right. But I'm like, I was thinking recently about like these tribute episodes that they did that. I mean, like they would do them, they would do a disco themed episode and then they would never touch disco again. And I'm like, why do we kind of like need to leave that to one 45 minute episode? Like, we could have been like, oh, that was kind of fine. Let's like sprinkle them throughout the series from now on slow drive but they would just yeah, they would just like do the Britney Spears episodes in where Brittany was only allowed to be in those specific episodes like I think never thought about that before there was has there ever been any example of a Madonna was like a was an artist that you know they were that was sprinkled throughout the series despite there being an obvious Madonna tribute episodes in the first season but um yeah was Whitney Houston did was Whitney Houston ever in any other so we had like two Whitney Houston um covers we had I look to you in season two and then we had I will always love you before the Whitney tribute episode but then once they did the tribute episode they never did Whitney again and I'm like why there's so much to pull from still yeah but I highlight do you think that that conversation went down though do you think the writers had oh let's put a Whitney Houston song in here in season four and do you think one of them turned around was like oh no we can't because we did the tribute episode or did it just not cross their minds do you know what I mean?

[1:33:52] Connor: I'm like genuinely curious like what the actual thought process behind that was I I simply have no idea.

[1:33:59] Thea Glassman: Yeah it's really interesting never thought about that the impression I got was like Ryan Murphy was always worried about things getting stale was like what it was was always like are we doing things too much in the choir room how what how are we gonna change up the sets so maybe to him was he was like okay we did this one musical artist we gotta keep things moving and changing and like keep audiences on their toes in a way yeah I was thinking this was like in Glee's height the uh like w are there any current shows that like when you measure the fandom is is anything reaching that glee peak?

[1:34:35] Andrew: I like for teen shows.

[1:34:37] Thea Glassman: I feel like Heartstopper might be one that that I feel like has like really viscerally touched uh teens and adults, and like has been a really like emotionally connective show. Um that's like the that's the big one I think that stands out to me. Um I don't there not anything else that I can really think of that like had this this magnitude.

[1:35:06] Connor: Um I would agree with that, yeah.

[1:35:09] Andrew: I would agree with that.

[1:35:10] Thea Glassman: Will there be podcasts about Heartstopper in 10 years?

[1:35:13] Andrew: I don't know. That's the thing, like, and that's the way that it's kind of like measured, I guess.

[1:35:18] Connor: Yeah, that's the exact metric.

[1:35:21] Andrew: Will there be a podcast finding the best song on a Heartstopper?

[1:35:28] Connor: Oh gosh.

[1:35:29] Andrew: Um we get into our last song of the episode.

[1:35:32] Connor: Oh my god, and what a note to end on.

[1:35:37] Andrew: Gosh, okay. I'm not gonna give any hints because I simply just want the shock alone to be.

[1:35:45] Connor: It's so this is I'm this is so exciting.

[1:35:49] Andrew: Okay, here we go.

[1:36:19] ♪ Musical number: "Let's Have a Kiki/Turkey Lurkey Time" ♪

[1:39:56] Thea Glassman: Oh, and this is a mashup too.

[1:39:59] Andrew: Okay, so I have I know I was I felt shame. I felt shame. I I think I can back.

[1:40:06] Connor: I know, play that clip again.

[1:40:10] Andrew: It's all yeah. Fine. So there's okay, there's two mashup songs that I okay. I'm sure if we if we went through the entire discography, yeah.

[1:40:21] Connor: It's like, wait, Thea, do you not like this?

[1:40:24] Thea Glassman: Yeah, I know. I'm like beaming the entire time.

[1:40:27] Andrew: Because it looked like you liked it, yeah.

[1:40:30] Connor: Oh gosh, I don't even know what to even uh say about this. This is going to stand the test of time. How can you have this musical performance with the mashup of it all in this extremely large and incredibly expensive apparently loft apartment in Bushwick with Sarah Jessica Parker there with a bunch of drag queens, and for it not to Mangeland, yes, for it not to stand the test of time. This is going to be if humanity is wiped out, the only thing left is "Let's Have a Kiki/Turkey Lurkey Time." What's that say about us as a culture?

[1:41:03] Andrew: Best Thanksgiving ever.

[1:41:03] Thea Glassman: I think it says that we're all we were all icons at one point. Um Brody in this musical number is literally he's the perfect representation of all of my friends whenever I talk about there. Also didn't love Sarah Jessica Parker as a general note in the show. I think she's a good actress, so I wish her well. I didn't love her character. However, she eats this up, she's just having so much fun, and the cut to her when Rachel starts to sing and she looks so confused is the moment.

[1:41:34] Andrew: Oh, it's hilarious.

[1:41:35] Connor: Yeah, no. I always loved also this little moment. It's such a tiny thing, but when when Rachel and I think Kurt go like, let's how I'm gonna do the snapping fingers choreographed. I always remember that little moment.

[1:41:47] Andrew: Oh yeah. I mean, I don't know. I the only question that I have, we ran through all these questions that I that I had for you, Thea. The only question that I have left here is what are the most surprising things that you've learned about. I mean, this is a very surprising performance, obviously. What uh surprising things that you've learned about Glee while making this book. Anything specific?

[1:42:08] Thea Glassman: I guess I don't know if this is uh surprising necessarily, but I thought sort of fascinating within the whole realm of of uh teen TV and what it meant to the people behind the scenes was this little anecdote about uh Ryan Murphy coming out to his dad and how horribly that went, and how he had this second opportunity, and he wrote the Kurt and Burt scene when Kurt comes out to his dad, and he wrote what he wished his dad said.

[1:42:39] Thea Glassman: Yeah and that story I feel like encapsulated what was so important about teen TV to like us as viewers and to the people who were creating it and how it really let them rewrite these really pivotal moments of their lives and have this catharsis moments and that always really stayed with me, that story.

[1:42:58] Connor: Yeah, no, I love that.

[1:42:59] Connor: And I, you mentioned that scene earlier in this recording. That like that really stuck with me. That I feel as though the representation that we had up until that point, at least for me, that I was like it was being hit over the head with trauma as associated were to LGBT youth. And so to see that it was like kind of sub it was fully subverting, like, hey, this blue-collar guy really embracing his son while still having conflicting opinions about him it wasn't like oh my god let's throw a party you know it it was like hey I still need some time but I still love you you're my son was a scenario that like hasn't been presented to me up until that point and so I think that that was a big swing on their end.

And I think that that's what Thea's book does so well that in spite of any of the discourse around this show in particular that exists in 2024 in spite of whatever documentary comes out about it whatever negative press headlines at the end of the day I will never forget being in my second year of secondary school as a 14 year old boy I will never forget queuing up outside the class waiting to get in and the two boys in front of me one of them turned to the other and said did you watch that TV show Glee last night it was three or four episodes in when it was airing on an Irish channel and he turned around to him and he said is that the one with the gay guy in it that was gr that changed the game and also when Brittany and Santana and Cardin Blaine got married in Ireland we were going we were about to go through a referendum process where we all had to go to the polling station to vote on whether marriage equality would come in.

[1:44:49] Connor: We were the first country in the world to vote it through democratically but that episode aired probably like a month before that vote and I will personally be forever grateful that we had that representation as kids because I feel like Andrew, people in around our age, we were we were just on the cusp of it. You know, now every show kind of has a queer character in every like every show has queer character of some description. We were just on that cusp. We were the in-between from the old to the new, if that makes any sense. I just remember so much of the language that people were using, you know, just as like early as like, you know, just a few years ago. That or just before Glee, really, and I don't want to credit Glee fully, or maybe I do, but you know, the fact that it changed the way that we like the gay just pejoratively, you know, just like I don't even I don't, at least in my circles or like my sister's circles or whoever that like I'm not hearing that as flippantly used, and I think that a lot of it has to do with the representation that we see in these characters that we love.

[1:45:55] Andrew: We're obviously talking about let's have a kiki mashed up with turkey lurky time. I wanna wrap this up so we can send you on your way, Thea. But that means that we're intellectuals, that the conversation got to that point. Let's bring it back to what actually is important. Let's have a kiki turkey lurky time. I feel confident in my vote for a kiki as a party for calming all your nerves. Who else wants to vote?

[1:46:27] Connor: I'm gonna vote for Let's Have a Kiki. It is one of my favourite Santolos, obviously. If I can't have you, obviously a big emotional resonance there. But my fear is that as we advance later into later Glackant rounds, there are gonna be less and less fun songs left. And I know we voted Run Joey run in a couple of episodes ago, Andrew, but I feel like we just need a little bit of oomph. We need a little bit of that representation. Right.

[1:46:50] Andrew: Yeah.

[1:46:51] Connor: I'm so sorry what I said about mashups. I take it on. And I'm gonna redeem myself. I'm voting Let's have a kiki. Literally, as soon as that subway stop came up, my heart left. So I that says everything, everything that needs to be said, I think.

[1:47:08] Andrew: Oh gosh. Alright, and recap for this episode. Something, there was something about it that it didn't have for round three. The only exception, it was, I guess the only exception for round two, and it's going to round three. Fighter, that's exactly what you are because you're fighting your way to round three. Arthur's theme. What do we have a joke for that one? Arthur's theme. Um, the theme is lost. Uh, because you lost the competition. If I can't have you, I that will have to be a reality with this song. And um, let's have a kiki turkey lurky time is now.

[1:47:49] Andrew: Uh gosh. Thea, we end every episode by asking if Glee is on today. What would they be doing? What songs they would be singing. Do you think fully that Glee would be able to happen today in your mind?

[1:48:05] Thea Glassman: One million percent.

[1:48:07] Andrew: Really?

[1:48:07] Thea Glassman: Yes. I would be so scared for them to do a reboot because I hate, you know, I've been universally disappointed by all reboots of shows that I've loved, so I almost am scared to scare because every once in a while there's little rumors that pop up. I don't know if they're clickbaiting.

[1:48:21] Andrew: Yeah.

[1:48:23] Thea Glassman: Um, I think 1000%. I think in 2024, I think Rachel and Jesse are still together, but I think that there's some problems, is my guess. They're they both sort of want the spotlight. And I think Rachel sings. I think Rachel sings, maybe she returns to McKinley High and she sings Vampire.

[1:48:47] Andrew: Okay on stage about Jesse and how he's sort of sucking her creative pieces from her and this sucking the spotlight from her. Because what an inspired choice I love. A I will say, I will say I have said on this podcast before AI Rachel, AI Rachel is eating vampire up.

[1:49:07] Thea Glassman: Yeah she is eating it up. I think I have also said on record before that it feels like a very obvious let's give it to Tina because of the vampire connection. But like most Tina songs, we don't get them. So Tina Love Kertina. Just hashtag Justice Ray, please.

[1:49:27] Andrew: Alright. I cannot recommend Freaks, Gleeks, and Dawson's Creek enough. Like truly, I mean that from the bottom of my heart. If you are a fan of anything to do with television, and I know that you are because you're listening to a Glee podcast. You need to check out this book. It's an audio medium, but I'm holding it up anyway. Thea, where can people find you and that book?

[1:49:48] Thea Glassman: Uh yes, so you can find that book anywhere. It's on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, any of your local bookshops. Um I should know my Instagram handle, and I'm so sorry. I don't know if there is a K in it. Uh it's I'm on Instagram at Thea Glassman.

[1:50:05] Andrew: Thea, thank you again.

[1:50:07] Thea Glassman: Thank you.

[1:50:09] Andrew: She was so nice. Um I loved her. I loved her. I knew that that was gonna be the case when I was looking at that YouTube. It was so great speaking with someone that not only is such a glee fan, but also just like general television. And um, yeah, that was really great. How are you feeling?

[1:50:28] Connor: She was absolutely amazing. I love that, and I love people who approach this show from like a kind of like cultural standpoint and like what it meant for the moment and what it meant for TV in general and how it played a part in getting us to where it where we are today. And like I'm so moved by those conversations, and I think her book really lays that out really well, especially with other TV shows that obviously that Thea writes about. So I had a great time.

[1:51:03] Andrew: No, this was another standout episode for me. I feel really, really, really good about it. And again, like I feel like I already said it in the episode, but like it I feel as though um maybe you feel a similar way that it's like I feel as though like it's an echo chamber of like, oh my god, like I'm a glee fan, I'm talking to you, a glee fan, um, in a conversation, and also the audience is glee fans, and it's like everyone's like glee, glee, glee, glee, glee. But it's also very fascinating to hear, you know, the perspective of someone that amasses just like all of television, and it's like, yeah, no, like it almost like gives credit to the conversations that we're having.

[1:51:40] Connor: That's how I oh my god, one billion percent. I genuinely feel like that episode would have been like four hours long if it weren't for the time constraints too. That like there was a so bad, and I again this is I felt so bad because I this will be cut out of the episode, but this part won't. I asked the uh maybe like an hour and some change into the recording. I was like, wait a minute, do you have any time constraints? Because I could literally talk to you forever. And she was I think she, yeah, uh definite returning guest. I think she's so interesting. I've got so many more things to ask her, and I've got so many more new things to ask her that have come up within that conversation alone.

[1:52:19] Andrew: Sure.

[1:52:20] Connor: Yeah, no, I loved it. Um other news. We are now uh 14 episodes. And let me just make sure my math is right here. Um 14 episodes into round two of the Glackett. That means ding ding ding ding ding. Every seven episodes in round two, um, a song will be brought back. That means there are 21 competitors. Um, how do you vote for that, you may ask? Well, I'm gonna be plugging the Patreon again. Uh so go to patreon.com slash Gleek the Week Pod. Um, voting will begin on the day that this episode is early released. So that will be on um March 8th and will close on March 15th. So you have one week to decide. Hey, which of these 21 songs um do you feel is worthy to come back for round number three? Um also again, if you want to join the Patreon, it's a very easy. This is a one-man show over here. I mean, Connor, you're really helping out as well.

[1:53:23] Connor: No, I'm just I am so I do want to say Andrew works his ass off on this podcast, and I'm a member of so many patrons podcast member, and I just know that the content that he has produced over the this past while has been spectacular. It is so worth it. He is not paying me to say this. And it's not because it's not because we're presenting today's episode together. Like, it's seriously, if you've got however many dollars to spare, it is seriously worth it because the glantent is top tier. All you have to do is look at the Instagram page to know that. So seriously, uh you are so welcome. So please consider it.

[1:54:06] Andrew: I just finished um the carousel. Speaking of glant, I finished the carousel for the Ian episode, and I don't want to share it with you just yet. I almost like I shared a few slides with you and Ian.

[1:54:17] Connor: Yes.

[1:54:17] Andrew: But I was like, I I don't even I don't watch RuPaul's Drag Race, but there's the meme of like them like writing things down and like laughing to themselves. That was like fully me. Um but like it is it does take hours to make the carousel. I do want that to be alarmingly apparent. Um so if you do find it in your GLART to um help out the podcast, um and throw a few dollars a month. Patreon.com slash Gleek the Week pod. Otherwise, um I want to also thank not only Connor, but as well as um Marissa, Abby, and Alexa who have been helping out recently with uh social media. And so they've been um they've been helping out with the TikTok and Twitter. Uh and yeah, anything else?

[1:55:02] Connor: That's it for me.

[1:55:04] Andrew: Yeah, Connor?

[1:55:05] Connor: Yeah, anything to plug?

[1:55:07] Andrew: Anything to plug?

[1:55:08] Connor: No. I mean, if you want to find me, I'm on Instagram at I am ConnorBurk, which is I am, and then Connor's C-O-N-O-R-B-U-R-K-E. I always love talking about Glee, as you can probably tell. Um, so I would be more than happy to chat to some cool people about the show.

[1:55:25] Andrew: Um obviously please don't attack me for my strongly well beliefs.

[1:55:30] Connor: They have been so kind. Like the comments that have been like they're they all everything has been kind. There have been the comments on the Lauren episode, and they love you. And so I'm so happy that we can do this transition period so seamlessly. I will miss you for the next few episodes.

[1:55:46] Andrew: Sure.

[1:55:50] Connor: Um but I have some very fun guests lined up and we'll have to have you back again soon.

[1:55:57] Andrew: Of course, absolutely one billion percent. And thank you so much for having me. Thank you to everyone for listening. It's this has been such a joy, and I feel like almost like every single episode that I've been on in this kind of second round of Glacket has been so different from like Thea to doing an episode with another host of a Glee podcast, Ian, to like Lauren to Alice and Elamode, and they've all they've all wetted my appetite in different ways, which just goes to show that this podcast has got such longevity to it, and there's so many people who are so passionate about this concept and who've got really unique, nuanced opinions that I think we're in I think we're in good hands, and I think it's dare I say very exciting for everyone involved. So thank you so much.

[1:56:44] Andrew: Yeah. Um my god. Alright, well, thank you so much, Connor. And uh we'll be back with another episode next week if you can believe it. Bye.

[1:56:52] Connor: Bum bum bum.

[1:56:55] Andrew: It's click, click of the week.