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[0:13] Sarah Goodman: Hi, I'm Sarah. I'm a sound designer and professional lesbian theater geek. I'm a huge fan of all things theater, Broadway, cabaret, and pop culture. I've got tattoos of Bernadette Peters and Liza Minnelli. In my podcast, I'm looking at theater through a queer lens and discussing the intersection between the craft and the LGBTQ community, aka me, my friends, and family. Join me in conversation with theater professionals, actors, creatives, and designers. Today's guest is Adam Odsess-Rubin. Adam is a queer community organizer and artistic leader, advancing performance as a tool for global LGBTQ advocacy. He is the founding artistic director of National Queer Theater and the Obi Award-winning CRIMINAL Queerness FESTIVAL, a platform for censored and criminalized LGBTQ plus artists worldwide.

Through NQT, he has produced works by artists from Uganda, Pakistan, Lebanon, Iraq, Kenya, Poland, and Palestine, amplifying voices from regions where queer expression is suppressed or outlawed. Under his leadership, NQT has raised more than one million dollars for queer and trans artists since 2018 and developed programs serving hundreds of LGBTQ plus youth, asylum seekers, elders, and people living with HIV. He has produced work with Carnegie Hall, Lincoln Center for the Performing Arts, New York Theater Workshop, Here Arts Center, MCC Theater, NYC Pride, and PAC NYC, positioning queer artists on major U.S. stages. His work has been featured in the New York Times, The Advocate, American Theater Magazine, and he was the inaugural Education and Community Programs Fellow at American Conservatory Theater in San Francisco.

His essays have appeared in Yale's Theater, The Gay and Lesbian Review, HowlRound, and The Teaching Artist Journal. He has spoken at conferences in New York, California, DC, Florida, and Brazil. We'll be talking today about the National Queer Theater's CRIMINAL QUEERNESS FESTIVAL, showcasing groundbreaking new works written by artists from countries where queerness is criminalized or censored. At a time when authoritarianism is on the rise globally, CQF elevates refugee, asylee, and immigrant queer voices and enriches the cultural fabric of New York City by introducing audiences to bold original works that challenge Western norms and inspire global change. The National Queer Theater's CRIMINAL QUEERNESS FESTIVAL is running June 10th through June 27th at Here Arts Center. Enjoy my conversation with Adam Odsess-Rubin.

[2:55] Sarah Goodman: All right. So welcome to Good Show, Adam Odsess-Rubin. Hi, Adam.

[3:00] Adam Odsess-Rubin: Hi, Sarah.

[3:01] Sarah Goodman: Thanks for having me.

[3:03] Adam Odsess-Rubin: Thank you so much for joining me today. How are you today?

[3:05] Adam Odsess-Rubin: I'm doing great. How are you?

[3:09] Sarah Goodman: Great. We are here today to chat about the National Queer Theater's CRIMINAL QUEERNESS FESTIVAL 2026, which will be from June 9th to the 27th. Um, tell my listeners all about it.

[3:24] Adam Odsess-Rubin: Yeah, thank you so much. The CRIMINAL Queerness FESTIVAL showcases queer artists from countries that criminalize or censor queer communities. So being queer or trans or, you know, in the words of some countries, like same-sex activity or gender abnormalities is a crime in over 60 countries. And by extension, if you're a queer artist in one of those countries, you can't produce queer work without facing censorship. Obviously, that's increasingly becoming an issue here in the United States, and we can get into that. But the impetus of this festival was World Pride in New York City in 2019. And since then, we've worked with artists from over 25 countries producing queer theater from all over the world in New York.

[4:14] Sarah Goodman: Wow, that's so fabulous. I'm really, really excited for this festival. I think it's so beautiful to be giving a platform to people whose voices are silenced in their home countries. Um, and I'm sure the work is like really varied. Can you talk about sort of all the various? I mean, obviously, we don't have time to talk about every piece that's been produced, but can you sort of give a picture of what types of shows people are seeing, what kind of work the artists are producing?

[4:47] Adam Odsess-Rubin: Yeah, I mean, I think this year is a great example. We have three shows. One is a musical, Area D by Lore, which is a Palestinian Eurovision farce. Wow. Um, and then we have a play by an artist named Bazid from Egypt called Faggy Fafi Cairoboy, um, which is a kind of an intimate drama. There's a love triangle, there's an angel, kind of like Egyptian Angels in America, riff on the angel. Cool. Um, and then there's a solo clown show by a Syrian American artist named E. Zalan. Um, all three artists are using some kind of pseudonym or part of their name for their own safety and protection, um, which I think really speaks to the mission of the festival. Um, but in terms of like form and content, you know, obviously we look for work that is explicitly queer in some way, because that's the point of the festival is to be out and proud and loud and queer.

Um, but in terms of the form it takes, we're really interested in being as interdisciplinary as possible. Um, and we've had drag performances, we've had very like agit prop kind of activist work, we've had readings, we've had productions. Um, it really runs the gamut of like what theater can look like around the world.

[6:05] Sarah Goodman: Oh, that's so cool. That's really amazing that the shows are so different and that they're kind of all different genres and different styles. I think that's really exciting. So this has been going on since 2019. How many pieces have been produced?

[6:26] Adam Odsess-Rubin: I think this year we'll have done 26 shows. Um, we've also done, you know, a few like one-off readings or events. So it's a little hard to keep track of what's what. Um and you know, our shows are kind of we call them like workshop productions. Um, it's not like a big off-Broadway, you know, month-long run. It's like a short run with some design elements, some staging. Yeah, but really it's about hearing the story and about these artists having a censorship-free platform to share the work. And the festival is not meant to say, like, oh, things are so great in the United States and things are so bad in these countries. Um, because we do have a lot of censorship here in the United States now, especially.

[7:11] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[7:11] Adam Odsess-Rubin: Um, it's really about saying like New York City is a beacon of hope for queer people around the world. We do have the First Amendment, and we're actually in a lawsuit with the Trump administration over our First Amendment right to freedom of speech and freedom of expression because of their ban on um arts funding for what they say is promoting gender ideology. Um, and we're backed by the ACLU in that. But it's really powerful to share work that would otherwise be censored and to be able to tell artists that you do not need to change your work, you do not need to change the content. If you want two men or two women or two non-binary people to kiss on stage, like bring it on, whatever you want to write, uh, we will support you.

[8:00] Sarah Goodman: That's wonderful. I really love that. What is the lawsuit process like right now? What what kind of stages are you in with that? And what could that possibly lead to?

[8:12] Adam Odsess-Rubin: Yeah, so we launched this lawsuit against the National Endowment for the Arts in early 2025 with the second Trump administration. And in the fall of 2025, we actually won the case at the district level, and the judge said this ban is unconstitutional under the First Amendment. Yeah. And then about a month or two after the government appealed the ruling. So right now it's in the back and forth with the lawyers of the appeal process. Um there might be an appeal hearing um later this summer or in early fall. And depending on the outcome of the appeal, I imagine that either side will appeal further to the Supreme Court. And if they decide to take the case, um, we could be at the Supreme Court as early as this fall.

[9:02] Sarah Goodman: Wow. And the Supreme Court, what a doozy. I feel like we're in a really tough spot right now with that.

[9:11] Adam Odsess-Rubin: Yeah, you know, it's tricky. It's like I don't even know if that would be a good thing or not to go to the Supreme Court because the Supreme Court is so conservative. But on the other hand, I think we'd have a very obvious winning case. I don't think there's any strong argument for banning the idea of promoting gender ideology because that's a completely made-up concept. Right. And a dog whistle that comes from Vladimir Putin and Fidel Castro and Xi Jinping in China and Nazi Germany, to be frank. And, you know, when these hearings happen, it brings more attention to the case. And it brings more attention to the greater issue of freedom of expression for artists and specifically trans and queer artists, but also artists of color who are dealing with this DEI ban across the United States.

[10:27] Sarah Goodman: Yeah. Our fall into really intense fascism has been kind of a moment I really did not expect uh as a young person growing up that I would be facing at this time in my life. But the intense conservatism right now is really frightening.

[10:47] Adam Odsess-Rubin: Yeah, I mean, I can't say I didn't expect it because my ancestors were Jewish refugees from Ukraine and Eastern Europe um during the pogroms, very filled on the roof. Um, you know, I had other family who died in the Holocaust or died in um Europe in World War II. So fascism is like a part of my own family history and studying history like history repeats itself, right?

[11:16] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[11:17] Adam Odsess-Rubin: It's what we do with the fascism that's important. And I find my personal mission in this current moment is to use art and community organizing um as ways to resist fascism because we see, you know, even attacks on late night hosts, it it's a symptom of the larger issue of restricting freedom of speech and freedom of the press um that impacts the arts, and the arts are so powerful because they can get at people in power in a way that um other politicians or civil society can't. But satire I think is really, really a powerful weapon against fascism.

[11:58] Sarah Goodman: Yeah, I agree. And I've always thought that theater, especially as an art form of storytelling, can really change people's minds uh about things. I think I've seen many examples of people seeing a really powerful piece of art that helped sort of open their mind to loving more of their fellow human beings.

[12:22] Adam Odsess-Rubin: Yeah, there's a great story that I love where um a former US ambassador to the UN, um, I believe in the 90s took um foreign diplomats from uh West and Central Africa to see Rent on Broadway as a way to open conversations for LGBT rights around the world. Um and that's the power of art. And it's like, okay, why do people ban or censor queer art? It's what are they afraid of? Like that people love each other, that people have freedom, that people have civil liberties. Um you know, to some governments it's so dangerous. And I think we need to treat art as the powerful modality that it is.

[13:08] Sarah Goodman: Yeah, and speaking of seeing Rent to open your eyes to LGBTQ uh themes. How has queer representation uh been an impact on your life? Do you remember the first time you saw queer representation on stage? And what does that mean to you personally?

[13:27] Adam Odsess-Rubin: Yeah, I was cast in a high school production of The Laramie Project when I was 16, and I was still in the closet. And doing that play just opened my eyes to the fact that there were other queer people in the world, which was like a novel concept to me as a closeted 16-year-old. I'd been bullied a lot, and just the idea that queer people could be out and proud, um and have a voice was like a totally revolutionary concept to my brain at the time. Um, and because of that play, then I read Angels in America and really for the first time saw nuanced and flawed queer characters in a way that I wasn't seeing on TV watching Queer Eye for the Straight Guy or even a little bit like Queer as Folk.

[14:16] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[14:16] Adam Odsess-Rubin: Um, which is better, but still was like a bit two-dimensional. Um, but reading Angels in America was totally mind-blowing to me as a teenager.

[14:27] Sarah Goodman: Yeah. I love that play. I also read it as a teenager. Were you a theater kid?

[14:34] Adam Odsess-Rubin: Oh, I was totally a theater kid. And I mean, it's funny because I ended up doing theater to avoid getting like beat up in middle school because the theater club was like in a classroom at lunchtime. Um, so it was my literal safe space to go um and avoid getting getting bullied. But then I realized like it was a place where I could be myself and I could make friends and I could be weird and I could express myself and um I just totally fell in love with it and now I can't imagine doing anything else like 20 years later.

[15:09] Sarah Goodman: Yeah. Yeah, where where did you grow up?

[15:13] Adam Odsess-Rubin: Ironically, I grew up in Berkeley, California, which is so liberal, and yet even in a place like Berkeley, California in the early 2000s, like as a kid, as a boy, like I I I was still getting beat up, which shows how um how deep the homophobia is in our young boys in our society.

[15:36] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[15:37] Adam Odsess-Rubin: Um and the fact that like the principal didn't really do anything about it, the teachers didn't really do anything about it, like it was not that long ago, but it was still a different time. And I think the awareness has changed a lot.

[15:49] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[15:49] Adam Odsess-Rubin: Um for the better, at least for gay kids, but now it's it's just as bad, if not much worse for trans kids. Um at a national queer theater, we have a really beautiful queer youth theater program called Staging Pride. And most of our students are trans, and you know, they're dealing with the same shit that I was dealing with at 16.

[16:08] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[16:08] Adam Odsess-Rubin: Um, even in New York City. So, you know, the fight really continues, and it's really up to us as as queer adults to like protect our queer youth.

[16:19] Sarah Goodman: Yeah, I fully agree. I worked at an arts high school in Chicago. I'm originally from Chicago, and um the students there were just incredible. And we had a you know statistically larger population of queer and trans students at a school like that. And yeah, they really can get so much relief in the arts and so much uh opportunity to express themselves and an escape from some of the other problems that they might be dealing with outside in their life with their parents, you know, some people's families, even in a big city, you'd be surprised like how hard it is for young, queer people to reconcile with you know, the various social opinions of their families.

[17:06] Adam Odsess-Rubin: Totally. And I think what really strikes me is not it's not in our acting workshops with staging pride, it's in the writing workshops because you know, when I when I work in schools and I'm a teaching artist for New York Theater workshops, so I go into a lot of different schools around New York City. Um, you know, there's not a lot of opportunity in school to talk about your life. Um, maybe a little bit in English class. Um, but you're usually not talking about current events, you're not talking about your personal experience outside of school. You're talking about math and science and history and all the things you study in school. But um theater and art, you know, really give young people a chance to talk about their experiences, talk about what's going on, and then to like reframe their lived experience in a way that can be consumed by others in a creative way and using metaphor and using simile and using poetry to think about their life in a different way, which can be incredibly therapeutic. Um I'm not a therapist, and um our program is not drama therapy, but it's certainly therapeutic. And um, that's the feedback I get from a lot of our students.

[18:16] Sarah Goodman: Yeah, that's amazing. So there's like multiple um programs for the youth.

[18:25] Adam Odsess-Rubin: Right now we have one core program, which is twice a week after school, and we teach acting and writing and directing and took in to see Broadway shows. We took like 50 students to see cats um last month.

[18:37] Sarah Goodman: Oh my god, did they die? Did they love it?

[18:41] Adam Odsess-Rubin: It was amazing. And a lot of the young people had never seen a Broadway show before, and they thought they were like literally at a ball. Um so they were just like screaming out the names of the actors, not even the characters, the actors' names. And they were clacking their fans, and it was so joyful.

[18:58] Sarah Goodman: Yes.

[18:58] Adam Odsess-Rubin: Um, and then we bring in a lot of guest artists to teach um music, dance, cool, acting, um, you know, costume design, clowning. Um, and then our students devise an original show uh at the end of each semester that we perform at Here Arts Center.

[19:18] Sarah Goodman: Wow.

[19:19] Adam Odsess-Rubin: And we bring in professional stage managers and designers, and you know, I I'm always very moved when when parents come to support their queer kids um or teachers. And it's yeah, it's really beautiful. Like it's very, very moving. Um, and the young people are really talented, like they're really developing their skills um in a beautiful way. And whether or not they end up pursuing theater as adults, they're getting so much confidence and building such a great community and and building so many um great skills that they'll bring into their lives.

[19:53] Sarah Goodman: Wow, that's amazing. I would love to be a part of something like that. Do you take volunteers?

[20:00] Adam Odsess-Rubin: Um, maybe you can teach a master class in podcasting.

[20:03] Sarah Goodman: That's fun. I am a sound designer, actually, the uh theatrical sound designer. I want to talk about that after this interview.

[20:08] Adam Odsess-Rubin: Yeah, um, amazing. So, how else are you connecting with the community with National Queer Theater? There's so much going on, which is amazing. This festival, the youth program. Um, how else are you like reaching out? How do you connect to the people?

[20:26] Adam Odsess-Rubin: Yeah, we started a new program three years ago called the CRIMINAL Queerness Studio, which is an extension of the festival. But we realize there's so many emerging writers around the world who are really in desperate need of community and who don't have access to playwriting training. Um, and to expect folks in Rwanda or Malaysia to have an MFA in playwriting is not necessarily realistic.

[20:51] Sarah Goodman: Sure.

[20:52] Adam Odsess-Rubin: Um, so one of our amazing festival writers, Atiro P. Oblak, who's originally from Uganda, is now teaching playwriting classes for queer artists around the world on Zoom. Amazing. Um, and people are zooming in from Indonesia and Uganda and Canada and the South and the US and all over the world um to learn basically like playwriting 101, but then also to build community of other queer and trans activists and artists. And often using again like using pseudonyms or using VPNs because even something as innocuous as a Zoom playwriting class is illegal and is dangerous. But we think it's worth it to provide this opportunity for people to gather even if it's underground and I have access to you know the kind of theater education that we have in abundance in a place like New York City.

[21:51] Sarah Goodman: So we actually have a reading coming up on June 2nd. I don't know when this is coming out but at Brooklyn Art House we're we're bringing in some really great Broadway and off Broadway actors to read the students work for the public. And then we just do a lot of advocacy work you know obviously the lawsuit is the most visible of that work but we're also in contact with other LGBTQ nonprofits um talking about how the arts can play a role in trans and queer healthcare education immigration um support um and then within the theater community talking with Broadway and off Broadway theaters about how to make their spaces more inclusive um talking about casting practices talking about um what are the pipelines for designers and directors who are queer and trans and how to think about the work really intersectionally in a way that's uplifting and supportive.

[22:50] Adam Odsess-Rubin: That's awesome. I ask, I ask everyone this question, and I feel like we've been talking about it the whole time, but it's it's more specific about current like your current state of mind. And the question is, what is important about theater today?

[23:08] Adam Odsess-Rubin: Today, this day, Sunday, May 31st, when we're recording this. I think today in a world in which our freedom of expression is under attack, and in which AI is becoming increasingly prevalent, the humanity of theater and of that form, that particular form of expression, which is so interdisciplinary and includes music and dance and visual art and involves bringing people together in a space. And just having a thousand people in Central Park all sitting down to watch Shakespeare. Like that feels so crazy these days. Like when we're so addicted to TikTok, yeah, um, and our phones, and like I'm I'm including myself in that. Um to sit there for three hours and watch Shakespeare as like the sun is setting um is so beautiful.

And to hear from our students and artists in National Queer Theater that like they feel like this company provided a safe space for them to be themselves and to express themselves and share their stories and make friends. Um, you know, that's that's why I do this day in and day out. And I hope the shows are good, obviously. Like I care about the quality of the art, but it's that community building that sustains me day to day and lets me know that this thing is worth pursuing.

[24:45] Sarah Goodman: That's really interesting. I love that. I think um I've I've noticed a pattern that throughout this whole season of my podcast, when I asked that question, everyone has mentioned AI and how theater is human. And like I really love that. And I think that's why I've always been attracted to theater, that it's real people connecting and I get really jazzed up with crowds of people and people all kind of participating in the same thing, you know.

[25:17] Adam Odsess-Rubin: Yeah. I I think it's about people connecting, and I I think what's really important that we need to emphasize more is like what happens in the 30 minutes before the show and the 30 minutes after the show. Because when we're watching the show, like that is an important communal gathering. We're all sitting in silence in the dark watching the show. But like it's those it's those softer connections that happen in the lobby that I think are what makes it so fun and community building.

[25:46] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[25:46] Adam Odsess-Rubin: Um, we worked a lot with Here Arts Center and Brooklyn Art House, which are two venues that have a great bar in the lobby. And I don't think it's coincidental. Like I think it's actually that the bar lobby, whether you drink or not, it's like irrelevant. Yeah. But it's that space of gathering that attracts people to stay after the show and talk about the show or to meet their friends before the show to like grab a drink or a bite. Um, that really builds our social connection and like makes people feel less lonely. Um I I don't think you get that with a lot of other activities. We don't meet a lot of strangers anymore, but theater is such a great place to meet strangers and to have a a really vital experience with a group of strangers.

[26:29] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[26:30] Adam Odsess-Rubin: And it's an environment where people are encouraged, invited to not be on their phones, to be like in the room present.

[26:42] Sarah Goodman: Yeah. I mean, that's what I love about being in rehearsal is like I can just I'm working, but I'm not on my phone. I'm not on my computer and I can put the email away for a minute and like watch actors be their brilliant selves. Um that's like the most fun part of my job.

[26:59] Adam Odsess-Rubin: Yeah. Um, because obviously with arts administration, it's a lot of spreadsheets and budgets and you know, contracts, but yeah, um, we all do this because we love making theater so much.

[27:13] Sarah Goodman: Yeah. Uh, thank you so much for this conversation. I've really enjoyed it. It's been fabulous. Uh before we go, I would love for you to tell the listeners again how can they come see the the various works in the festival and how can they help or get involved with the National Queer Theater.

[27:35] Adam Odsess-Rubin: Yeah. Everyone is invited to the criminal queerness festival at Here Arts Center. Um, and you can go to nationalqueertheater.org or here.org to buy tickets. Um, tickets are just $30. We try to keep it very accessible. And we have a lot of great engagement events. We have three really wonderful, very different shows um showcasing three amazing queer Arab artists from across the Middle East. Um and then, yeah, check out our website, nationalqueertheater.org or our Instagram at National Queer Theater with an ER, not an R E, um, to learn other ways to get involved.

[28:17] Sarah Goodman: Yay, thank you so much, Adam.

[28:19] Adam Odsess-Rubin: Thank you, Sarah.

[28:20] Adam Odsess-Rubin: Thanks for having me.

[28:24] Sarah Goodman: Thank you for listening to my podcast, Good Show. Check out more episodes of Good Show at bpn.fm slash good show, or follow me on Instagram at Good Show Pod or my personal account at SoundsGoodSarah G. This show is recorded, edited, and hosted by yours truly, Sarah Goodman. Thanks everybody for listening. Love you lots.