This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Kristen Goodman: Hi, I'm Kristen Goodman.

[0:02] Sarah Goodman: I'm Sarah Goodman, and we're Showbiz Siblings.

[0:06] Kristen Goodman: We live in New York City.

[0:08] Sarah Goodman: We're both queer, and we love musical theater.

[0:11] Kristen Goodman: This is our podcast.

[0:27] Sarah Goodman: Hello. Today we are talking about La Cage.

[0:32] Kristen Goodman: It is a musical with music and lyrics by Jerry Herman and a book by Harvey Fierstein based on the 1973 French play of the same name.

[0:42] Sarah Goodman: The show tells the story of gay couple, Georges, uh, the manager of a nightclub that has a drag show, and his husband Alban, who is the star, otherwise known as Zaza.

[0:55] Kristen Goodman: Yeah, Zaza. It's very farcical. It's really fun. Basically, the story is about George and Alban. They have a son. His name is Jean Michel. Jean-Michel is getting engaged, and his fiancée is super duper conservative. Think like a Ted Cruz kind of a dad. And um the in-laws, the new to be soon-to-be-in-laws, are gonna come over for dinner, and Jean Michel asks his parents to play straight for the night.

[1:24] Sarah Goodman: Tall order from this couple, especially Alban.

[1:27] Kristen Goodman: Especially for Zaza.

[1:28] Sarah Goodman: Zaza. She cannot be contained. Um so it gets, you know, everybody gets kind of bombed out. Zaza's really sad that they would, you know, the son would ask him to leave, and it's a lot of drama with calling his birth mother, and then she doesn't want to show, and then there's all this funny farcical stuff. They've got a maid. She's in drag. She's like hilarious, constantly making jokes and stuff. Um, and yeah, it's very cute and sweet. It's a beautiful romance story about a couple that's been in love for a long time and about family.

[2:04] Kristen Goodman: And it's really interesting because it's sort of about the beauty of this family that's not a conventional family, sort of having to fight against these quote unquote family values of um a conservative politician. Um, but it's got absolutely beautiful music by Jerry Herman and um really iconic story for uh being a show that opened on Broadway in 1983.

[2:28] Sarah Goodman: Yeah, absolutely. Groundbreaking.

[2:31] Kristen Goodman: Mm-hmm. So, Sarah, tell us a little bit about the creative team for the original Broadway show, and then specifically also for the revival that we watched at Toft.

[2:42] Sarah Goodman: Yeah, so like I said before, the original Broadway show was music and lyrics by Jerry Herman, book by Harvey Fierstein. It opened at the Palace Theater in 1983, and it was directed by Arthur Lawrence, uh frequent collaborator with Stephen Sondheim, and choreographed by Scott Salmon.

[3:03] Kristen Goodman: Scott Salmon. Does anyone know?

[3:05] Sarah Goodman: Salmon. Somebody tell us, listeners, Salmon Salman. Um, set design by David Mitchell, costumes by Theone Aldridge, lighting design by Jules Fisher. Um, the original cast was Gene Barry as George and George Hearn as Albin.

[3:22] Kristen Goodman: George Hearn is my favorite Sweeney Todd.

[3:24] Sarah Goodman: Mm-hmm. The 2004 revival that we watched um was at the Marquee Theater. Jerry Zaks was the director. Jerry Mitchell was the choreographer.

[3:34] Kristen Goodman: Double Jerry's.

[3:35] Sarah Goodman: Double Jerry's. Jerry Jerry.

[3:36] Kristen Goodman: William Ivy Long did the costumes, Donald Holder did the lighting, Scott Pask did the sets. Uh, and the cast in that production was Gary Beach as Albin, and we saw him at Toft.

[3:49] Sarah Goodman: Daniel Davis as George.

[3:51] Kristen Goodman: We did not see Daniel Davis at Toft. We saw Robert Goulet.

[3:55] Sarah Goodman: Robert Goulet. He was like in his early to mid-70s, I think at that point.

[4:00] Kristen Goodman: Yeah.

[4:00] Sarah Goodman: Gavin Creel played Jean Michel.

[4:02] Kristen Goodman: Oh, little baby Gavin.

[4:04] Sarah Goodman: Little baby Gav. And uh our special guest played Chantal.

[4:09] Kristen Goodman: T. Oliver Reid.

[4:12] Sarah Goodman: Woo! Ow! So exciting. So stay tuned later in the app for that. Um and then this show was revived again in 2010 at the Longacre Theater, directed by Terry Johnson and choreographed by Lynn Page.

[4:26] Kristen Goodman: Kelsey Grammer played George.

[4:29] Sarah Goodman: Baby, I hear the blues a-callin', tossed salads and scrambled eggs.

[4:35] Kristen Goodman: Oh my.

[4:37] Sarah Goodman: I can see him. I think he's on the um they did a cast recording for that, and he's he's good. I like his voice.

[4:43] Kristen Goodman: Yeah, and you know, he played George, Robert Goulet played George. Very similar vocal, but deeba do ba doobah. You know, yeah. I like that.

[4:54] Sarah Goodman: Um, and Douglas Hodge was Albin.

[4:57] Kristen Goodman: Great. So yeah, a lot of productions of that show. I really loved the version we watched at Toft.

[5:01] Sarah Goodman: It was so great.

[5:04] Kristen Goodman: It was pretty great. It's really interesting that that show has been revived so many times throughout the years. It is a perfect segue to our new segment on the show for the queer series, so we thought it would be fun to look at the evolution of queer theater over the times um since this show, sort of being the first of the series in the eighties, early eighties, um, to our more recent shows so Kristen tell us a little bit more about kind of like what was going on in the 80s and and some historical context for the show.

[5:37] Sarah Goodman: Yeah yeah so let's see early 80s I was like a year and a half old when this show opened um fully you were fully aware of politics watching the news absolutely really into it really into it already um but Ronald Reagan is president um E.T. is the blockbuster hit film okay uh Michael Jackson's Thriller is number one on the charts in 1983 um the Mario Brothers is first released in Japan whoa GPS technology is first made available for non-military use in the 80s 83.

[6:15] Kristen Goodman: Wow okay those people were fancy.

[6:17] Sarah Goodman: Yeah um we're almost two years into the AIDS epidemic at this point and scientists just have discovered that AIDS is caused by HIV and the year before in 82 Wisconsin becomes the first state to outlaw discrimination based on sexual orientation but we're still very much in this conservative era of like extremely homophobic culture and policies.

[6:15] Kristen Goodman: So when La Cage aux FOLLES opened on Broadway in 83, as we were saying it's the first hit musical to center a gay relationship just totally groundbreaking in that regard the big one act finale song "I Am What I Am" is considered one of the great gay anthems and was recorded yeah, was recorded by lots of people, but um Gloria Gaynor, of course, had a big hit with that one.

[7:06] Sarah Goodman: So when I was doing some research, I discovered that according to Jerry Herman's memoir, he was aware that with Harvey Fierstein, who's like a known gay activist writing the book, and Arthur Lawrence as the director, who's very political, um, that the show could have easily become like a diatribe on gay rights. Um, but Jerry Herman had had some disappointments with his darker themed shows since '69 when Mame debuted.

[7:37] Kristen Goodman: And he really wanted to score a mainstream hit that like middle class audiences would enjoy.

[7:42] Sarah Goodman: So apparently he encouraged the team to create a quote, charming, colorful, great-looking musical comedy, an old-fashioned piece of entertainment.

[7:53] Kristen Goodman: Um, and by delivering their sentiments in a sweetly entertaining manner, they—his words—um, they were able to convey their gay-themed message with more impact than they could have with a more aggressive approach.

[8:06] Sarah Goodman: Killing them with kindness and wholesome love.

[8:10] Kristen Goodman: Exactly. Yeah, and this strategy really paid off because the show was a hit.

[8:14] Sarah Goodman: Um, the original production won six Tony Awards, including Best Musical, Best Score, Best Book, and it ran for more than four years.

[8:23] Kristen Goodman: Wow.

[8:24] Sarah Goodman: Um, other notable shows that were running on Broadway during that time were Cats, Sunday in the Park with George, My One and Only, Big River, um, and the revivals were like Show Boat, Porgy and Bess.

[8:38] Kristen Goodman: Um hit shows like Annie and Evita had both closed earlier in 83.

[8:44] Sarah Goodman: Um, yeah, and so you just mentioned the revivals, um, revived in 2005 and uh 2010. They won the Tony Award both times for Best Revival.

[8:55] Kristen Goodman: And it's the first show ever to win twice for Best Revival after winning for Best Musical for the original production.

[9:04] Sarah Goodman: Wow. That's really amazing.

[9:06] Kristen Goodman: Yeah.

[9:06] Sarah Goodman: Really like it just shows you how strong the material is.

[9:10] Kristen Goodman: Absolutely. Absolutely. And this strategy that Jerry Herman was apparently, you know, kind of dictating about what direction they go with it.

[9:20] Sarah Goodman: So it'll be interesting to see how that strategy evolves over these next shows in the queer series, because I think I would have agreed with Jerry Herman that that was the right strategy in 83.

[9:31] Kristen Goodman: Yeah. And then just you know, on a personal note, the Birdcage, the movie, the 1996 film, of course, starring Robin Williams and Nathan Lane. It's based on La Cage aux FOLLES.

[9:43] Sarah Goodman: Um, and it's one of our family's favorite movies. We just we grew up watching a movie over and over again, and we have so many of the lines unseen memorized. Just Hank Azaria as the maid.

[9:51] Kristen Goodman: So good. I just I know it's a little problematic in hindsight to have Hank Azaria playing a character who's not like he's just a white guy, right?

[10:00] Sarah Goodman: He's like Italian or something. It's probably it's problematic for him to be doing that.

[10:05] Kristen Goodman: Like he kind of built his whole career off of voices, characters, yeah, accents that were now like you're not allowed to do that anymore, Hank.

[10:12] Sarah Goodman: But we appreciate what you're hilarious.

[10:14] Kristen Goodman: Yeah. And in 96, it was, you know.

[10:17] Sarah Goodman: But he is stealing the show in that movie.

[10:19] Kristen Goodman: It really is. So good when he's like, it's sweet and sour peasants, too.

[10:25] Sarah Goodman: I forget the shrimps.

[10:27] Kristen Goodman: Yeah. One thing I like about the Birdcage was Christine Baranski, and it's interesting in the musical, we don't meet the mother.

[10:37] Sarah Goodman: She doesn't show. That's part of the storyline is that um they call her to ask her to come to dinner and pretend like she's been in Jean Michel's life this whole time, which she hasn't.

[10:48] Kristen Goodman: Um, but then she doesn't come.

[10:50] Sarah Goodman: And she doesn't come in the movie though, right?

[10:52] Kristen Goodman: No, she tries to come and they they make her leave.

[10:55] Sarah Goodman: Right.

[10:55] Kristen Goodman: They put a note on the on the door.

[10:57] Sarah Goodman: But then, oh, but then the photographer um guy steals it, right?

[11:04] Kristen Goodman: The like yeah, it's definitely even more farcical in the Birdcage than the musical, where it's like cross-communication and silliness and like that movie is so funny.

[11:15] Sarah Goodman: It's so so good. And this I love the scene with Robin Williams and Nathan Lane when Robin Williams is trying to teach him how to walk straight and how to eat toast, and they're Nathan Lane just keeps screaming, I pierced the toast.

[11:35] Kristen Goodman: Yeah, it really is one of the best.

[11:39] Sarah Goodman: Yeah. Pretty amazing.

[11:45] Kristen Goodman: Today we watched the 2004 Broadway revival of La Cage aux FOLLES.

[11:51] Sarah Goodman: Uh, we watched the performance we watched was from June 2005 at the Marquis Theater, starring Robert Goulet as Georges.

[12:00] Kristen Goodman: La doobie. What is that?

[12:02] Sarah Goodman: Doobie doobido. Do you remember when Will Ferrell would do him on SNL?

[12:08] Kristen Goodman: I love it.

[12:09] Sarah Goodman: Uh Gary Beach as Albin, uh, Gavin Creel as Jean Michel, and Michael Benjamin Washington as Jacob.

[12:19] Kristen Goodman: Uh T. Oliver Reid plays Chantal.

[12:22] Sarah Goodman: What a cast. T. Oliver Reid. Wow. I was not expecting to see him.

[12:25] Kristen Goodman: And oh my god, the vocal range.

[12:27] Sarah Goodman: Yeah. Vocal range. Wow. A great, great production. I loved it. Enjoyed it a lot. I thought it was so fun. It was beautiful and charming.

[12:36] Kristen Goodman: And it felt like it had a really big full orchestra and all of the voices were great.

[12:42] Sarah Goodman: Yeah. Um, should we dive into some of our highlights?

[12:45] Kristen Goodman: Yeah, what are your highlights?

[12:47] Sarah Goodman: Loved about the show.

[12:48] Kristen Goodman: Mm-hmm. Well, I gotta say, I was so excited when the credits were rolling at the very top, and I saw T. Oliver Reid's name because I had no idea he was even in this show.

[12:57] Sarah Goodman: Um, but he plays Chantal, who's like this crazy um high note operatic singing drag queen.

[13:04] Kristen Goodman: Coloratura soprano style.

[13:07] Sarah Goodman: Yeah, and it was so cool because um I got to mix a show of T. Oliver Reid's at 54 Below. Their solo show was like all about love songs, and um their vocal range is nuts. They they just recently were playing Hermes on Broadway in Hadestown.

[13:22] Kristen Goodman: Nice, yeah.

[13:23] Sarah Goodman: So I really loved seeing them. That was exciting. Um, the pre-show announcement with Harvey Fierstein, I loved, and the thing I thought was funniest about that was he said silence your electronic devices and silence your children.

[13:35] Kristen Goodman: Yeah, I love it.

[13:37] Sarah Goodman: As if there were many children in the audience at the Marquis Theater that night.

[13:40] Kristen Goodman: But there were too many. I don't think you I don't think grandma takes little Timmy to see La Cage.

[13:45] Sarah Goodman: I don't know, it depends on whose grandma it is.

[13:47] Kristen Goodman: That's true. She's a hip grandma. Like our mom, if she ever becomes a grandma, she would take her grandkids to see La Cage.

[13:53] Sarah Goodman: That's true.

[13:57] Kristen Goodman: Um, I noticed in this show, they do something really interesting at the end of every big drag number that they do at La Cage aux FOLLES.

[14:07] Sarah Goodman: They all pull their wigs off.

[14:08] Kristen Goodman: Right. And it's like wig reveal.

[14:10] Kristen Goodman: Right.

[14:11] Sarah Goodman: To be like, ha ha, we're men.

[14:13] Kristen Goodman: Yeah.

[14:13] Sarah Goodman: Which I thought was really interesting. Um, especially because I had always been really confused by that when I saw Victor Victoria, which is another show we're gonna talk about this series a few shows from now. Um yeah, where she she does the same thing when she's pretending to be the drag queen, she pulls off her wig at the end to be like, I'm a man.

[14:25] Kristen Goodman: Right.

[14:33] Sarah Goodman: It's just like that's Julie Andrew's normal haircut.

[14:35] Kristen Goodman: Yeah, so that must be that must have been like a European style drag reveal thing.

[14:41] Sarah Goodman: Yeah, yeah. It seems like it might have been because um it's like a thing now I'm seeing multiple times.

[14:47] Kristen Goodman: Yeah, it seems like today drag queens don't really take their wigs off unless it's like a really dramatic moment at the end of like a really dramatic, like you know, if they're like lip syncing for their life.

[14:58] Sarah Goodman: Well, notoriously um Rue Paul hates it when drag queens take their wig off, unless they have another wig underneath that wig. You know what I mean? When they take off the wig and it's just the wig cap.

[15:06] Kristen Goodman: No.

[15:10] Sarah Goodman: Rue doesn't want to see that. Mama Rue doesn't like that.

[15:11] Kristen Goodman: Mama Rue doesn't like that.

[15:12] Sarah Goodman: It's like when they take their shoes off, she's like, Oh no.

[15:14] Kristen Goodman: Mm-hmm.

[15:16] Sarah Goodman: Right. Yeah, so it's interesting that they that they did that. I also thought it was cool or just like I amusing to me that the audience laugh reacted so much to that top drag number. Like when the voices come in and they're all like we are we uh Yeah, the audience started cracking up. And I'm like, oh, I guess people find drag queens funny, like immediately it just causes people to laugh.

[15:44] Kristen Goodman: Yeah, like just the concept of drag queens is funny to the majority of the audience.

[15:48] Sarah Goodman: Right. I mean, they kind of set it up to be a laugh at the beginning. There's so much anticipation where that it's just that little like do do do do. And then they're like silhouetted or like kind of low lighting in those keyhole.

[16:00] Kristen Goodman: Yeah, the key holes, those were really cute.

[16:02] Sarah Goodman: That was adorable. Loved that. The sets in general were really beautiful and I loved how they all kind of swooped in and out. Like whenever they would swoop into the apartment, they would it would all like all the pieces would kind of slide out and fit together. It wasn't just like one big th blob. I loved that. And it never felt like we were waiting very long for any transitions. Like the next scene just sort of seamlessly started to happen as they moved and rotated everything around.

[16:27] Kristen Goodman: Yeah, they'd be like riding on a set piece while it's like flying around the scene. Like there was a part where Gary Beach sits down to sing his first big number and he like goes into the dressing room and that whole set piece was like spinning really fast while he was getting to sit down in front of the mirror.

[16:44] Sarah Goodman: Yeah, I loved that.

[16:45] Kristen Goodman: Yeah, I did too. I thought it was really cool. Um oh my god, I really, really loved their what I wrote, um I called it dick sessories in their house.

[16:54] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[16:56] Kristen Goodman: When the sun's going around and pointing out like all the risque gay things they have, like this statue with a giant penis, and then he just pulls the penis off and it's a lighter.

[17:06] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[17:07] Kristen Goodman: And then the other the big statue of the naked guy, like if you pull the dick up, the light comes on, it's like a light switch. I thought that was really that was cute. And I I was curious if that had been in the original production or if that was something they added in for the revival. So if you're listening and you know the answer to that, if you saw if you happen to see the original Lacage or you know, like I'd be curious if those same dick jokes were in the show. But that was really funny because it was like cute how they didn't have to it's more timeless, I feel like when it's just nonverbal, when the sun is just literally going around being like, Really, Dad? Like look at this thing. This dick turns into a lighter. We can't we can't have this at the dinner party.

[17:47] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[17:49] Kristen Goodman: That was funny. So what are some of your other highlights, Sarah?

[17:52] Sarah Goodman: Um, let's see. You know, I I was kind of thinking this isn't really a highlight, it's just a thought that I had while I was watching it. Was that it would kind of be fun to see it revived again, even though they did it in 2005 and they did it in 2010, and like it's 2023. It seems like you know, not that much time has passed, but it's so relevant right now, and I would just really love to see this with real drag queens. Wouldn't it be fun to see it with like actual drag queens?

[18:19] Kristen Goodman: Yeah.

[18:19] Sarah Goodman: Although we it would have to be real drag queens who can actually really dance.

[18:24] Kristen Goodman: You can really dance and sing like those high kicks.

[18:27] Sarah Goodman: I even just mean like Alban.

[18:29] Kristen Goodman: Sure.

[18:30] Sarah Goodman: It would be really cool to see Zaza played by anything.

[18:35] Kristen Goodman: Yes.

[18:35] Sarah Goodman: Because historically, uh, we didn't really look up the cast for the 2010 one, but for this production and the original production, it's like these sort of like I'll just say straight men. Some of them are straight, some of them are gay, but um they are playing like they're typically like George Hearn, for example, from the originals, like a very um serious, you know, he was Sweeney Todd.

[18:59] Kristen Goodman: Right.

[19:00] Sarah Goodman: Um, the the George character, I think is traditionally very like stoic and he was Zaza.

[19:08] Kristen Goodman: Oh, George Hearn was Zaza?

[19:09] Sarah Goodman: Yes.

[19:10] Kristen Goodman: Wow.

[19:11] Sarah Goodman: George Hearn is Zazah.

[19:12] Kristen Goodman: Oh, I didn't know that. I thought he was George.

[19:15] Sarah Goodman: No.

[19:16] Kristen Goodman: George, not George.

[19:18] Sarah Goodman: Also probably got confusing.

[19:20] Kristen Goodman: Yeah.

[19:20] Sarah Goodman: Theybe they had different nicknames. George.

[19:22] Kristen Goodman: George.

[19:23] Sarah Goodman: George or George. I'm sorry. Were you asking for George or George?

[19:27] Kristen Goodman: Were you asking for Jerry or Jerry?

[19:28] Sarah Goodman: Jerry?

[19:29] Kristen Goodman: Jerry.

[19:30] Sarah Goodman: George?

[19:30] Kristen Goodman: George?

[19:31] Sarah Goodman: So who what like who's your dream casting then for a for a current revival for Zaza?

[19:38] Kristen Goodman: You know, she's still too young, but like Sheik Koulet. You know? Someone I think who is like an actor also who could do or like Jinx.

[19:48] Sarah Goodman: Or jinx.

[19:49] Kristen Goodman: Jinx Monsoon. I mean, oops all jinx. We want to we always are gonna catch Jinx monsoon in any guesting drag related. Also a little too young, but perfect for the role, I think. The voice and the acting and like you know, or like, oh, uh Varla Jean Merman.

[20:04] Sarah Goodman: Ooh.

[20:05] Kristen Goodman: I just did her show at 54 below. She would be fucking amazing in this show. And she's even done musicals in drag when normally a cis person would be cast. So we know she's got the musical theater chops. She's not just a cabaret queen. Um my last highlight I would love to mention is how gorgeous the costumes were, especially the feather looks.

[20:27] Sarah Goodman: Oh my gosh.

[20:28] Kristen Goodman: So many feathers. Number where Chantal is singing on the top of that giant sort of like Mother Ginger dress that all the queens come out of. And then that dress cage rolled around like a set piece, but how that was wild.

[20:44] Sarah Goodman: That was the coolest, like kind of circus-y, aerial. I loved that whole number.

[20:50] Kristen Goodman: Me too. That was my favorite part of the show. That was like my top highlight. I loved, like, I was like, oh my gosh, an actual bird cage, like an actual cage, and it was originally her skirt, and then they all come out of it. And oh, it was so incredible. They were really just like whipping it around and whipping it. The one performer was like doing aerial acrobatics all inside of it and on top of it.

[21:11] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[21:12] Kristen Goodman: That was really super entertaining. Very cool. The the um what are they called? Leg Cajell, like the backup dancers.

[21:20] Sarah Goodman: All of the queen, all of the queens in the show.

[21:23] Kristen Goodman: They were incredible. They were so good. Can can dancing was can amazing. I gotta add that to the highlights lists for me.

[21:30] Sarah Goodman: The can can wash it so good.

[21:32] Kristen Goodman: Holy moly, like so athletic. And they were that moment where they were like throwing each other over the pit and then landing in the splits. Insane.

[21:42] Sarah Goodman: What?

[21:44] Kristen Goodman: So much jumping into the splits.

[21:46] Sarah Goodman: Yeah. And I loved all of the contagion. Like, I don't know if that's like a Jerry Mitchell thing, but like there was so much contagion the whole show, and it just really made your eye like go all over the stage and like watch each individual as opposed to like more of a raquette style choreography where you're like seeing a unit. This was more like look at everybody as they go down the line, which I really love.

[22:07] Sarah Goodman: That was cool. Especially because in this kind of thing, it's like they are a chorus of queens, but like they all have their own unique personalities that they're bringing to it, you know. And I think if we're gonna go back to like dream casting for another revival, maybe it would be nice to see a little more individuality in body type and style and all of that in the cast of all those queens.

[22:32] Kristen Goodman: Yeah.

[22:32] Sarah Goodman: But they were definitely going for that like Foley Bergère kind of vibe. And I think part of like hearkening back to the the wig reveal thing, it's like the drag scene then was very much focused on like the female illusion.

[22:48] Kristen Goodman: Right.

[22:49] Sarah Goodman: Like passing.

[22:50] Kristen Goodman: Right.

[22:51] Sarah Goodman: Right. And just the yeah, the spectacle of that aspect of it.

[22:56] Kristen Goodman: Mm-hmm.

[22:57] Sarah Goodman: Mm-hmm. What are some of your other highlights?

[23:00] Kristen Goodman: Um, I really loved the Song on the Sand scene. I thought that was just really lovely. And, you know, this this show is so groundbreaking in the fact that it featured a gay couple as the lead lead characters. You know, that had never happened before. This debuted in what, 83?

[23:22] Sarah Goodman: 83.

[23:22] Kristen Goodman: That's a long time ago.

[23:23] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[23:24] Kristen Goodman: And even in 2005, it was still really necessary to have this kind of representation. I mean today it's still necessary. But um part of the reason why we're doing this queer series, I think, is just highlight these shows. Um but I just I don't and of course I'm comparing that scene to the iconic scenes in the birdcage which I love so much and like Nathan Lane's like um just I just I just love him and Robin Williams so much in in that movie. But I thought Robert Goulet and um Gary Beach did a lovely job of showing us a window into this couple's romantic life and the way they interact and I just love the song Song on the sand. I think it's so romantic and so beautiful and I just loved the simplicity of it, you know, and I don't know I just th it was very touching and the uh orchestrations for all of that part where we c with the accordion and um giving that French cafe kind of vibe. Loved it.

[24:27] Sarah Goodman: Mm-hmm.

[24:29] Kristen Goodman: Um and then I loved any of the scenes with Jacob, Jacov, however they said his name. The maid.

[24:36] Sarah Goodman: The maid slash butler.

[24:38] Kristen Goodman: Um just hollering from behind the door or coming in and out doing funny, you know, little funny takes um throughout the whole show. I thought that was a good thing.

[24:47] Sarah Goodman: Oh my god, whenever they would throw the luggage, that was killing me.

[24:51] Kristen Goodman: I loved that. Just plop so loudly on the stage.

[24:56] Sarah Goodman: Yeah, that was great.

[24:58] Kristen Goodman: That was so great. And just the pacing and the timing of all of the jokes I thought worked really well. It was making me laugh out loud a lot.

[25:04] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[25:05] Kristen Goodman: Well, the last show we loved the most from last season's uh shows was also a Jerry Zach's show, Hello Dolly.

[25:11] Sarah Goodman: Yeah, Jerry Zach.

[25:12] Kristen Goodman: Lily Jerry Zach. He knows how to get the comedy.

[25:15] Sarah Goodman: The comedy and the bits.

[25:16] Kristen Goodman: We love the bits. Yeah, because these Jerry Herman shows are so funny. And so it was great. And this this book by Harvey Feierstein is so funny. Um of course I was there was a few of the iconic things that I love about the birdcage that I was missing a a little bit from the musical, but uh it still was really making me laugh a lot.

[25:37] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[25:38] Kristen Goodman: Like the John Wayne scene. When they're Jacqueline's on the patio or whatever, and they're trying to talk about John Wayne, that just kept making me think about the birdcage so much.

[25:47] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[25:48] Kristen Goodman: Like that moment in the movie where he's like telling Robin Williams' characters telling him to walk like John Wayne. And so he's doing it, and then he's like, not good, it's no good. And he says, No, it was perfect. I just never realized John Wayne walked like that.

[26:03] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[26:04] Kristen Goodman: Yeah. I love that scene. And so I love how in the musical, like the whole restaurant is singing along with this like silly song about climbing up the mountain, like John Wayne or whatever. It's adorable.

[26:14] Sarah Goodman: It's pretty adorable.

[26:16] Kristen Goodman: It was really, really cute.

[26:17] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[26:20] Kristen Goodman: Um, okay, so those were highlights. Um, what do you did? You have any low lights, highlights.

[26:25] Sarah Goodman: Oh yeah, we're doing highlights and low lights.

[26:27] Kristen Goodman: I forgot to mention that earlier. We're doing highlights and low lights this season. Let's see, low lights. You know, let's just say um the soft shoe moment between Robert Goulet and Gary Beach was a little struggle bus.

[26:41] Sarah Goodman: It's a little underwhelming.

[26:42] Kristen Goodman: It's a little underwhelming. Um, I was actually shocked at how amazing I thought Robert Goulet was, because I wasn't so sure how it was gonna be. Of course, his voice is stunning and he's got Broadway credits from early in his career, but I just wasn't so sure. And I thought he brought a lot of really nice, like tenderness to his role. I thought he was as convincing as being in a loving gay relationship, but he didn't go over the top with any like stereotypical sort of like mannerisms or put on. It didn't seem put on. It felt very natural that he was just sort of like this, you know, yeah, very Robert Goulet kind of guy.

[27:18] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[27:19] Kristen Goodman: Yeah, and I'm like it was funny when um when the conservative politician guy is like screaming at them like homosexuals, transvestites, and Alvin is like, one transvestite, and then I said one plain homosexual. And I just thought that was cute.

[27:40] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[27:41] Kristen Goodman: And it didn't, you're right. It like Robert Goulet's portrayal didn't seem like a stereotype. He just seemed authentic and sweet. But he was a little stiff, he was a little he looked old. But yeah, I happened to look up the wiki um while we were watching the show because I was just curious like how old he was when he was doing that production. And uh come to find out he died like a year after the show closed. So he was not doing so great um probably during the run of that.

[28:08] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[28:09] Kristen Goodman: Well, he did fairly well.

[28:11] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[28:11] Kristen Goodman: He exceeded my expectations anyway.

[28:14] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[28:15] Kristen Goodman: Um, but that was probably all for Lowlights. I think otherwise I really loved it.

[28:19] Sarah Goodman: I thought it was a quite enjoyable show.

[28:21] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah.

[28:22] Sarah Goodman: I mean, there were really very few things I didn't like about it either. Um, I think there were some moments where I didn't really know if the rest of the company was all that necessary. Like there were some scenes where I'm like, why are there so many people on stage? I don't know any of these people. Like, what are these people? Um, I don't know. Like at the end, I was like, wow, this company is huge. Like where were all these people?

[28:46] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah.

[28:48] Sarah Goodman: And were they only in like one scene? Like what's weird. But I guess they need some people in the background at the restaurant at the end, and they need some townspeople walking around at the outdoor. And they want to make it feel populated, you know.

[29:02] T. Oliver Reid: Sure.

[29:02] Sarah Goodman: Sure. I guess it can't just be like the lead characters and the drag queens, but still it was I didn't really just wasn't doing it for me. I there weren't any like numbers that featured any. I mean, I guess I guess on um the best of times is now we had a lot of big choral singing with everybody.

[29:24] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah, yeah.

[29:25] Sarah Goodman: And we couldn't have probably done that if we didn't have a big big cast.

[29:29] T. Oliver Reid: But that's true.

[29:30] Sarah Goodman: Um, but yeah, I loved everything else. I loved um I thought, like we said, the sets rolling around and all of that was really beautiful. The lighting was cool with all of those like star backdrops and those were pretty like chase lights kind of stuff and um those keyhole specials.

[29:48] T. Oliver Reid: Oh, yeah, I loved the Zaza sign and chase light thing that came out for her big first number.

[29:55] Sarah Goodman: And the Zaza logo, and even the logo of the sh this revival really looks like Liza with a Z to me. Which I love. But it was that same sort of color and font that's that Zaza that would say Liza.

[30:08] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah.

[30:08] Sarah Goodman: I thought that was kind of fun.

[30:09] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah.

[30:10] Sarah Goodman: And all the costumes, like you were saying earlier, just incredible. Like beautiful. So many feathers. So gorgeous. So many rhinestones.

[30:17] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah.

[30:17] Sarah Goodman: Those dresses that the drag queens were wearing that had like long fringe skirts.

[30:26] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah, those reminded me of Fosse.

[30:28] Sarah Goodman: Yes. They were so cool. They were like white and gold with like long sparkly fringe all the way down.

[30:36] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah.

[30:36] Sarah Goodman: Kind of style. Where the whole skirt is nothing but fringe. It was really cool.

[30:41] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah.

[30:42] Sarah Goodman: And I thought all of Zaza's costumes were really beautiful and appropriate.

[30:45] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah.

[30:46] Sarah Goodman: Oh, I loved her costume reveal also. For that. She likes starts in that like black caftan looking thing and then it peels down to this gorgeous rhinestone thing.

[30:56] T. Oliver Reid: Rhinestoned, yeah, that was really neat.

[30:58] Sarah Goodman: Yeah. I liked it a lot. It was really pretty. And you know, I think it was cute how a lot of the songs were repeated. There were so many reprises of everything. And I I guess, you know, if I really had to be super critical of the show, I think I was missing a song or two. Like I wanted like one more song. Um, but I like the repetitiveness too, because it's kind of cool to see those same lyrics, you know, when it's first sung by the son, Jean Michel, and he's saying, you know, and with Anne on my arm, but then Georges sings it to Albin with you on my arm, and then it's reprised again at the very end as like a big kind of finale moment type thing. Like that's that's sweet to see that same lyric kind of in the three different contexts.

[31:47] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah.

[31:52] Sarah Goodman: And it brings more um nuance to all of those relationships, I think.

[31:56] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah.

[31:58] Sarah Goodman: Okay, so our next segment is about uh queer representation. And this is a fun one because this is gonna be really interesting as we go through these shows. Um we're watching them in their chronological order of when they were originally produced on Broadway, but we're only gonna get into watching the original Broadways in a couple more shows because we're watching some alternate takes.

[32:19] T. Oliver Reid: Right.

[32:20] Sarah Goodman: Um, so let's see. What what do we think about the queer representation of La Cage?

[32:25] T. Oliver Reid: Well, like I said before, I think it's just totally groundbreaking, you know. And gotta hand it to the original creative team for going big with this show in 1983.

[32:37] Sarah Goodman: 83, I mean, that is so long ago.

[32:41] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah, 40 years ago.

[32:42] Sarah Goodman: So long before like Will and Grace and Ellen and like all of those shows that are considered to be groundbreaking in their era, and that was like late 90s.

[32:52] T. Oliver Reid: I know.

[32:52] Sarah Goodman: Was this even before? I'm wondering if 83 was before after the first like gay character on TV show on a TV show, which was Billy Crystal.

[33:02] T. Oliver Reid: Um soap.

[33:03] Sarah Goodman: In soap.

[33:04] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah.

[33:05] Sarah Goodman: It could have been similar timing, but it I also feel like maybe it was before that.

[33:10] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah.

[33:10] Sarah Goodman: But as gay as Broadway has always been, because there have always been so many gay people working and performing on Broadway, this was really the first show to feature lead characters who were a homosexual couple.

[33:23] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah.

[33:24] Sarah Goodman: And not just a homosexual couple, but like a very established married type of couple with a child.

[33:31] T. Oliver Reid: Right.

[33:32] Sarah Goodman: Right.

[33:33] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah.

[33:34] Sarah Goodman: And of course, this this original content was the play of the same name. Um, and there's also a film, a French film.

[33:42] T. Oliver Reid: A French film, yeah.

[33:43] Sarah Goodman: So they adapted that original um play.

[33:46] T. Oliver Reid: Well, French people have been very gay.

[33:48] Sarah Goodman: That's stronger. Leave it to the French for being very gay much longer than that.

[33:51] T. Oliver Reid: Is he gay or European, you know?

[33:53] Sarah Goodman: That's the question.

[33:54] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah.

[33:54] Sarah Goodman: And that that song I am what I am is so powerful and became like a gay anthem in the eighties and nineties because that was one of the first ever songs to just be like take it or leave it. This is who I am. I'm proud of who I am. I'm not, I don't need praise, I don't need pity.

[34:17] T. Oliver Reid: I love that phrase.

[34:18] Sarah Goodman: Yeah, it's beautiful. Like so strong and powerful. It really it got me a little choked up. I don't I was surprised I didn't cry today, but I think it was because it was so funny through most of it. But that was the one moment that I was really like starting to feel like choked up. Um Gary Beach was getting so emotional, like there were tears in Zaza's eyes singing that song, and it was it was a little more like raw and like it was just way more emotional than I've ever pictured that song being from hearing recordings of it, you know, it feels very like strong and like grounded and prideful, but seeing it with that kind of emotional thing, it's like, yeah, you know, it's not it wasn't easy to just stand up and say something like that then. It's still not. But I especially back then. Just like wow, you know, really powerful.

[35:09] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah, and I was just thinking about how, you know, in nineteen eighty-three we were still in the peak of the AIDS epidemic.

[35:18] Sarah Goodman: Like just starting, really.

[35:19] T. Oliver Reid: Just Yeah, so to be an audience member, coming to see maybe your first Broadway show or whatever, you know, if you're in New York City, and this is the show you see, like to be if you were a queer person sitting in the audience that night to see that, you know, this this show deliver a song like that and just a story like this, I'm sure was just so validating and and and powerful at that time.

[35:48] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[35:48] T. Oliver Reid: And I thought it was interesting, you know, because I knew that song, I am what I am. I knew a bunch of the music from this show, but I wasn't really sure where those songs plugged in to the plot.

[35:57] Sarah Goodman: Same, yeah.

[35:58] T. Oliver Reid: I did not know the context for that song.

[36:00] Sarah Goodman: Yeah, and so I thought it was really cool how Albin has just been told that he's not allowed at this dinner party because he's too gay and he will just like totally blow their cover. And then he doesn't even say anything. He's so mad, he just like walks away and goes to perform, and then that's the song that he performs was just ugh, so it's giving me goosebumps right now, just thinking about it. And it was like you could tell that his character was like, I have always been my authentic self. I have worked so hard to get to where I am. Like I am not gonna be stifled now. Like I'm not gonna be in the closet now.

[36:38] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah.

[36:39] Sarah Goodman: And I I it made me think about how a lot of times in queer history and in the movement, it's often drag queens and trans women and femmes who are like leading the way and living authentically and just being, you know, themselves and representing the community.

[37:01] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah.

[37:02] Sarah Goodman: And act you know, being activists for the community just by being their authentic selves all the time.

[37:07] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah, absolutely.

[37:09] Sarah Goodman: That's that's a factor I didn't really think about, but that's so true. Like the movements have always been led by drag queens and trans women and femmes and um I'd say as far as queer representation, I think this show does very well and for general representation it could have been a little bit more diverse.

[37:29] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah.

[37:29] Sarah Goodman: But it is a pseudo period piece. What time period are we in? Is it set in the eighties do you think?

[37:33] T. Oliver Reid: It felt kinda modern.

[37:38] Sarah Goodman: It was they mentioned television.

[37:41] T. Oliver Reid: Okay, so it's probably like it was set in current day.

[37:44] Sarah Goodman: Yeah, when it was written in eighty three. Yeah, I don't know when the play and French film were written, but I think it's supposed to be set in whatever decades that the movie The Bird Cage is like.

[37:46] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah, yeah.

[37:59] Sarah Goodman: And it's set in the nineties when it came out current day. But I think the play was set in current day and maybe came out in like the sixties or seventies or something. I should be able to do that.

[38:05] T. Oliver Reid: Interesting.

[38:05] Sarah Goodman: 'Cause it looked it didn't look it didn't look period really of any it didn't look like a period piece but it felt obviously not like two thousand five. I thought it was so interesting that in this particular production that we watched, um we had Gary Beach, um, Robert Goulet, Gavin Creel, Robert Goulet, a straight man playing a gay character, Gavin Creel, a gay man playing a straight character.

[38:31] T. Oliver Reid: Kind of funny.

[38:32] Sarah Goodman: Yeah. Interesting. Um. Yeah, so what do you th what do you think about the casting and um the queer representation like that?

[38:41] T. Oliver Reid: I think there's been a lot of talk lately about like casting and you know, do you have to be gay to play a gay character? Um, when is that important, you know, and when is it not?

[38:56] Sarah Goodman: Yeah, I think, you know, in decades gone by when actors weren't openly gay, I think it was a more complicated and touchy subject of like, you know, I and I think it was more common for quote unquote straight people to play gay characters because n hardly anybody was out.

[39:21] T. Oliver Reid: Right.

[39:21] Sarah Goodman: And so everybody was trying to pretend they were straight even if they weren't. And then today I think, you know, I wouldn't say I have uh, you know, strong feelings about no straight people should be allowed to play gay characters because there's so many more, you know, gay actors now who are actually out. Um, so I can understand if people were sort of like making a an ultimatum or you know, strict guidelines about that. I think about shows like Modern Family, where the gay couple in that show, you know, it's one actor who's gay and one who's straight in real life, but they're both doing, you know, a great job of pretending that they're this gay couple.

[40:08] T. Oliver Reid: Or like Eric McCormack, you know.

[40:10] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[40:12] T. Oliver Reid: He played gay on Will and Grace for how many years?

[40:14] Sarah Goodman: And very well.

[40:14] T. Oliver Reid: Right.

[40:15] Sarah Goodman: He's not a gay.

[40:15] T. Oliver Reid: So I'm not gonna say there should be no straight people playing queer characters, but I think if it were if La Cage were revived today, I would definitely want to see actual queer people in the lead roles.

[40:29] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[40:30] T. Oliver Reid: Um, I think that would be important.

[40:31] Sarah Goodman: And I think the show would get a lot of flack if they didn't cast gay people in those roles.

[40:38] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah.

[40:38] Sarah Goodman: And to your point of like it should actually be a a drag performer too in the role of Zaza. I think that would be really cool.

[40:43] T. Oliver Reid: And the I it's uh since you bring that up, it makes me think about how um I kind of was wishing there was more of that like drag makeup also um like Zaza had lashes and she had lipstick and like blush and whatnot. But she didn't really have like a beat.

[41:04] Sarah Goodman: Right.

[41:05] T. Oliver Reid: You know what I mean? And I feel like that's not necessarily something that's new. You know, if you think about watching like Paris is Burning or something, the Queens back then they had a beat, like they were wearing some foundation and some like real drag looks. Maybe that's problematic for the timing of the show where Alban and Zaza are like back and forth, like maybe you can't really do like a full drag makeup look, but I just kinda wanted to see that on some of the queens, maybe.

[41:32] Sarah Goodman: Right, right.

[41:33] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah, and I I think you're right. I think it was both a part of the fact that they had to do the really showy showgirl scenes and then also do like the street clothes scenes where he's just like hanging out as Albin and Zaza.

[41:47] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[41:47] T. Oliver Reid: But I think it's also just that aesthetic of the like French European style where they're trying to quote unquote pass as a woman instead of like actually look like a drag queen.

[41:57] Sarah Goodman: And today's aesthetic of drag I think is just like really over the top.

[42:01] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah, good.

[42:02] Sarah Goodman: Very draggy makeup. But I think this is trying to be more like female showgirl.

[42:09] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah, that female illusion.

[42:11] Sarah Goodman: Illusion.

[42:11] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah.

[42:12] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[42:14] T. Oliver Reid: Alright. So any last thoughts before we do our segment, How Queer Is It?

[42:14] Sarah Goodman: How queer is it?

[42:22] T. Oliver Reid: So we've been developing this scale of our queerness uh scale. And we've we've landed on some some categories.

[42:31] Sarah Goodman: Um just as a reminder, uh our scale, if it's if it's the most queer, it's queer as fuck.

[42:38] Kristen Goodman: Yeah, the most queer is queer as fuck.

[42:41] Sarah Goodman: And then it steps down, hella gay.

[42:44] Kristen Goodman: Mm-hmm.

[42:45] Sarah Goodman: Love is love.

[42:46] Kristen Goodman: That's like medium love.

[42:47] Sarah Goodman: Yeah, that's kind of neutral.

[42:48] Kristen Goodman: It's like I'm an ally.

[42:49] Sarah Goodman: Right.

[42:50] Kristen Goodman: And then if it was just kind of gay, it's like fruity.

[42:53] Sarah Goodman: Mm-hmm.

[42:54] Kristen Goodman: And then if it's gay but you couldn't even really tell, that's what we're calling Pete Buttigieg.

[42:59] Sarah Goodman: Peach Buddha.

[43:02] Kristen Goodman: Love you, Pete.

[43:03] Sarah Goodman: Love you, Pete.

[43:04] Kristen Goodman: You're kind of the straightest gay guy I've ever seen.

[43:07] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[43:08] Kristen Goodman: Ever.

[43:08] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[43:10] Kristen Goodman: Um, so on our queer scale, Sarah, what's your uh what do you give this production of La Cage?

[43:10] Sarah Goodman: So La Cage is definitely gayer than Pete Buttigieg or fruity. But I couldn't decide if it was love is love gay or hella gay. Because part of it is hella gay, the fact that there are real queer people in the show, the fact that it's centering queer characters, they're not just the side character, they're the two main characters, and then also like this huge ensemble of presumably queer drag queens.

[43:47] Kristen Goodman: Um but it starts with drag like right out the gate.

[43:51] Sarah Goodman: Yeah, it starts with drag right out the gate, but also um Georges and Albin never kiss.

[43:57] Kristen Goodman: Right.

[43:58] Sarah Goodman: They are very um what's the word? Like sterilized a bit. Um not that I want to see them like getting it on or anything, but like they're it was just very like holding hands was sort of the max we got out of them, or like a light hug.

[44:18] Kristen Goodman: Right.

[44:19] Sarah Goodman: Um so I don't think that's quite hella gay. So I'm gonna say like uh love is love point five. Cause it really feels like a love is love story, you know. It's like, hey, this couple is a mother and father just like everybody else. You know, they're just a little different.

[44:22] Kristen Goodman: Love is love.

[44:39] Sarah Goodman: Yeah, I agree with you. I think that's that's the rating. And clearly this is you know being rated against other gay content.

[44:46] Kristen Goodman: Yeah, this is a gay content scale.

[44:49] Sarah Goodman: Notice notice there aren't any straight things on the scale. It's all gay, even Pete Buttigieg is gay.

[44:57] Kristen Goodman: Still very queer, you know, because they're all queer shows.

[45:00] Sarah Goodman: Yeah, yeah.

[45:01] Kristen Goodman: Yeah, yeah. But yeah, it's very um wholesome.

[45:05] Sarah Goodman: Wholesome, it's very palatable, like you know, you could bring grandma and little Timmy.

[45:11] Kristen Goodman: You could bring little Timmy.

[45:13] Sarah Goodman: They're probably not gonna be super offended or shocked by any of the Yeah, I don't think so. I mean, they have the two little dick jokes, but they're fairly innoc, you know, they're very like uh innocuous.

[45:24] Kristen Goodman: Is that the word I'm trying to say?

[45:26] Sarah Goodman: Um yeah, they're they're pretty mild.

[45:29] Kristen Goodman: Yeah.

[45:29] Sarah Goodman: Yeah. But it's it's um I feel like the movie, The Birdcage, gets into some of the political stuff even more.

[45:37] Kristen Goodman: Oh yeah than the musical did.

[45:39] Sarah Goodman: Definitely. I think the musical is very soft with it all.

[45:42] Kristen Goodman: Mm-hmm.

[45:43] Sarah Goodman: Yeah. And it was um so farcical and funny how it all just sort of like ends. It's just I love it. It's like any other Jerry Herman musical. It's like, oh, then there's a restaurant scene and everybody gets really excited and then we just whoop wrap it up, wrap it up, wrap it up.

[45:59] Kristen Goodman: We only got two more scenes.

[46:00] Sarah Goodman: I don't care what's going on here, everybody wrap it up.

[46:06] Kristen Goodman: Yeah.

[46:06] Sarah Goodman: It's a lot like Dolly. It's like they go to the restaurant, that's sort of the climax of the action, and then it's like, okay, yeah, tie this up, tie this up, tie that up, do one more number, goodbye.

[46:15] Kristen Goodman: Yeah.

[46:16] Sarah Goodman: Did the senator guy really change?

[46:18] Kristen Goodman: No, I don't think so.

[46:19] Sarah Goodman: He really didn't. They blackmailed him into saying yes to his daughter marrying this kid.

[46:23] Kristen Goodman: So that's kinda nice, I guess, but I don't know if he changed his mind.

[46:29] Sarah Goodman: No, he didn't.

[46:30] Kristen Goodman: Probably not.

[46:31] Sarah Goodman: I feel like the Gene Hackman character in the movie has a little bit more of a change of heart.

[46:38] Kristen Goodman: He's at least really feeling himself in drag.

[46:40] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[46:42] Kristen Goodman: Yeah.

[46:42] Sarah Goodman: Whereas this show, I say I guess maybe this is a a low light for me that um it felt like the conservative in drag at the end of this show was uh very much like look at that ugly man in a dress.

[46:54] Kristen Goodman: Yeah.

[46:55] Sarah Goodman: Trope. Um which we don't love.

[46:58] Kristen Goodman: Don't love that.

[46:58] Sarah Goodman: Don't love that. And I feel like in the movie The Birdcage, Gene Hackman, first of all, they made him look a lot better.

[47:05] Kristen Goodman: Yeah.

[47:05] Sarah Goodman: As a queen than this version of Don what's his name?

[47:09] Kristen Goodman: Don.

[47:10] Sarah Goodman: Don Dan, but they Don Dan.

[47:11] Kristen Goodman: How bad and called him Ding Dong.

[47:15] Sarah Goodman: That was so good.

[47:17] Kristen Goodman: When he calls him Ding Dong.

[47:18] Sarah Goodman: That was cute.

[47:19] Kristen Goodman: Yeah, I think um Don Dan Dan did not look very good in drag and then has a hairy back, and it's like this whole thing. And that part was not my favorite.

[47:26] Sarah Goodman: No, no.

[47:29] Kristen Goodman: Yeah.

[47:30] Sarah Goodman: But the rest of the show I loved. So glittery and fun.

[47:33] Kristen Goodman: Yeah beautiful.

[47:34] Sarah Goodman: And beautiful. And uh, I just anytime I get to watch a Jerry Herman musical and listen to that gorgeous music is a good day.

[47:43] Kristen Goodman: Full overture, full entreact, and a really long play out after the bows.

[47:48] Sarah Goodman: Just a lot of gorgeous score going on with the full band, which is very nice.

[47:53] Kristen Goodman: Seemed like a really big pit too.

[47:55] Sarah Goodman: It did.

[47:55] Kristen Goodman: Yeah.

[47:55] Sarah Goodman: And it was cute how the pit got to interact a little bit with the actors.

[47:59] Kristen Goodman: Another Jerry's axe thing, I think, maybe.

[48:02] Sarah Goodman: Happening back to the old school shows.

[48:04] Kristen Goodman: Totally.

[48:05] Sarah Goodman: And I love how much breaking of the fourth wall. It's like you're at La Cage Aux Folles as an audience member in the club instead of just as an audience member on Broadway.

[48:15] Kristen Goodman: At the end of Act One, Zaza left through the aisle.

[48:18] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[48:18] Kristen Goodman: Which was cool after I Am What I Am. She was gone. She booked it out of the club, which was really exciting. And then um at the end of the show, all of the paparazzi come through the aisles onto the stage.

[48:29] Sarah Goodman: So that was that was pretty fun.

[48:31] Kristen Goodman: Yeah, I loved that aspect of it.

[48:34] Sarah Goodman: It was great.

[48:35] Kristen Goodman: It was great.

[48:35] Sarah Goodman: Definitely a good show.

[48:37] Kristen Goodman: Yeah.

[48:37] Sarah Goodman: Good show.

[48:38] Kristen Goodman: Good show.

[49:11] Sarah Goodman: Today we are joined by one of Broadway's most versatile stars.

[49:15] T. Oliver Reid: He's performed in 13 Broadway shows, including La Cage Aux Folles, Chicago, Kiss Me Kate, FOLLES, Thoroughly Modern Millie, Once on This Island, and most recently in Hadestown, where he took over the role of Hermes after André De Shields.

[49:31] Sarah Goodman: You may have seen him on TV in Sex and the City and Girls.

[49:35] T. Oliver Reid: He's on the grad acting program faculty at NYU Tisch.

[49:40] Sarah Goodman: He's a recording artist, a trailblazer, and the co-founder of the Black Theater Coalition.

[49:46] T. Oliver Reid: Last December, he was featured as one of Out Magazine's Out 100.

[49:50] Sarah Goodman: Please welcome to the Good Show Pod T. Oliver Reid.

[49:56] T. Oliver Reid: Yay!

[49:56] Sarah Goodman: Yay!

[49:58] T. Oliver Reid: Thank you for having me.

[49:59] Sarah Goodman: Oh, thank you so much for being here.

[50:02] T. Oliver Reid: Pleasure.

[50:02] Sarah Goodman: So the first question we're going to ask you today is what are your pronouns and how do you identify?

[50:08] T. Oliver Reid: My pronouns are he, him. I identify as homosexual male.

[50:13] Sarah Goodman: Yes, we love to see it.

[50:15] T. Oliver Reid: Love it. I love to be it, so it's good.

[50:18] Sarah Goodman: Yes, we are also both queer.

[50:20] T. Oliver Reid: So yeah.

[50:22] Sarah Goodman: Wait, and wait, so you but you're not twins. You're your sisters, but not twins, right?

[50:25] T. Oliver Reid: Correct, right? Six years apart.

[50:29] Sarah Goodman: Nice.

[50:29] T. Oliver Reid: So just when you thought you had the house to yourself, this one comes along.

[50:35] Sarah Goodman: That's right. The whole dynamic was ruined.

[50:39] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah.

[50:40] Sarah Goodman: We have a little sister too.

[50:42] T. Oliver Reid: She was nine years later.

[50:43] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[50:43] T. Oliver Reid: A whole nother surprise.

[50:45] Sarah Goodman: Also, also queer or no?

[50:47] T. Oliver Reid: No.

[50:47] Sarah Goodman: No.

[50:47] T. Oliver Reid: Well, unless she's on her own. She's Gen Z, you know, so we don't know about all of them.

[50:53] Sarah Goodman: Gotcha.

[50:53] T. Oliver Reid: Gotcha.

[50:57] Sarah Goodman: So in the revival of La Cage Aux Folles that we watched at Toft, um, you played Chantal, um, the one of the drag queens, who sings in a very high soprano voice. Amazing. You sang counter tenor in the role of Mary Sunshine in Chicago. And in Hadestown, you covered both Hermes and Hades, which is a really low singing part. So, and we recently learned you just went on one night as one of the Fates. Incredible. So, I mean, you have an enormous vocal range. So, just how high and how low can you sing? And have you always had this huge range?

[51:30] T. Oliver Reid: Uh I'll add to another verse. So, I've always had the range. Um, not sure why I it I think it has something to do, I think most baritones tend to have a fairly strong falsetto. And uh I went to University of North Carolina School of the Arts, so uh for a while I sort of dabbled in the idea of being a counter tenor because I had that uh that facility. But yeah, kind of I say you like lyric soprano range, so like up to like you know an A B flat as long as it's you know, I used to be able to sing like a high C, and then one day the universe is like, nope, you don't need it anymore. You've done too much. So that that that was taken away and never came back. But the rest of it was always kind of in there.

Um and the the actual vocal line for Hades is not as low as the the incredible Patrick Page sang it, so he has that ridiculous bass. Uh it's still it's still a you know a a good bass role, but but not I didn't sing it as as low as Patrick because he he lives in this place the entire time, which is you know, lovely, but don't want to kill the chords.

[52:36] Sarah Goodman: Right, right.

[52:36] T. Oliver Reid: But yes, I mean I mean fairly fairly extended as far as uh not not quite Mariah Carey range but you know close I'll say.

[52:36] Sarah Goodman: Yeah wow so incredible really just we had such a good time watching you as Chantal in La Cage. Um do you have any fun stories you'd like to share from your time in that production?

[52:36] T. Oliver Reid: Oh let's see um my favorite was like you know on on two show days because once once we got it well first we we were in rehearsals and I'm not sure if you know this but they made us shave our legs so every guy in the cast we were absolutely shaved legs many had waxed arms as well and then there was one day that Jerry Mitchell who was the choreographer came up to us and was like so I think you all should have your eyebrows waxed off and we were like you went too far they're coming for all your hair yeah we're like they're like there are certain things that'll be fine like walking on the streets no one's gonna notice but but uh 10 guys with no um no eyebrows not doing that but like like days on like two show days we'd go to dinner and I would say I you do you know those um probably your your parents had them somewhere in the house those Yadro like porcelain figures.

[53:53] Sarah Goodman: Oh a hundred percent.

[53:53] T. Oliver Reid: I looked I looked like the hobo figure because I would wear sunglasses and all of this was like no makeup down so scruff but then big lashes and full eyebrow because it was like it was too much work to try and like redo the makeup for two show days so we would leave that theater just like this the mask still on but the rest of it just like man.

[54:13] Sarah Goodman: I love it.

[54:14] T. Oliver Reid: That's amazing it's a really fun little gender bender situation we got going on in Midtown.

[54:19] Sarah Goodman: Oh, there were plenty.

[54:20] T. Oliver Reid: There were plenty of extra costumes that made it backstage so that when when we were off for intermission or something, um Brad Musgrove, who's one of who who was one of the cajels, had this like bag of like dresses that he had made so they would be backstage and intermission was a fashion show just about every day.

[54:40] Sarah Goodman: Oh wow, that sounds amazing.

[54:42] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah how fun.

[54:43] Sarah Goodman: Yes, we we had some good times there.

[54:43] T. Oliver Reid: So when La Cage debuted in 1983, it was the first Broadway show with leading uh leading characters who are gay, uh really groundbreaking. And you've been working on Broadway consistently since 1996. Um from your perspective, how has queer representation on Broadway evolved over the decades? And how do shows like La Cage make a positive impact on moving audiences towards more acceptance of the LGBTQ plus community?

[55:18] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah, it it's it's interesting because you know we it's an industry that uh is filled with queer people but on the inside, but the the outward facing side tends to be much more sort of middle has been much more middle American and what is palatable to them. Uh those, you know, uh married families with a husband and a wife and 2.5 kids. And it it feels like over the years we've we've we've moved ourselves to a place where our experiences are much more um much, and I hate to use the word palatable for us, but we but because I I don't like that word, and I don't like the word when people are like, I'm going to um I'm going to deal with you or something like that. It's like, no, I I want us to be able to understand each other and and accept each other w on our terms.

But it does feel like over the past, you know, 25 years, uh, that has changed a lot and the stories that are being told are much more inclusive. I think a lot of that is, you know, we are much more accepting of ourselves, so we're much more willing to open up and tell our own stories. So that has been great. But I also think the shows like La Cage, you know, for uh the time period that it was written in and for the story that it's telling offers offers uh a look into a family that many people had never seen, or the idea that there would be, you know, two gay men, two lesbian women who were in a loving relationship and and and raising a child and what comes with that.

[56:46] T. Oliver Reid: So I think all of that has helped lead us to where we are now in the shows that we get to see, you know, whether it's Kinky Boots or it's Some Like It Hot and all the characters and these lives that we now get to see on stage.

[56:57] T. Oliver Reid: I think it's all a part of the ladder for us of getting to a place where it's not even about whether other people think our lives and our stories are acceptable. They are lives and our stories, so we're gonna tell them.

[57:10] Sarah Goodman: Yes.

[57:11] Kristen Goodman: Yes, I love that.

[57:12] Sarah Goodman: It's beautiful.

[57:13] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah.

[57:14] T. Oliver Reid: Um, we are welcome.

[57:17] Sarah Goodman: You're so amazing.

[57:20] Kristen Goodman: Super cute.

[57:23] T. Oliver Reid: Like it really is like I love it.

[57:27] T. Oliver Reid: That's the end of the sound vibe.

[57:28] Sarah Goodman: Thanks.

[57:29] Kristen Goodman: Yes.

[57:30] T. Oliver Reid: Freeze frame.

[57:31] Kristen Goodman: Yeah.

[57:32] T. Oliver Reid: First of all, we have to do it, has to be a screenshot of the three of us all doing the same thing.

[57:35] Sarah Goodman: Yes, we'll all be like, thanks.

[57:37] Kristen Goodman: Thanks.

[57:39] T. Oliver Reid: Yes, I love that.

[57:41] Kristen Goodman: That's so cute.

[57:45] T. Oliver Reid: So um, we are huge Jerry Herman fans.

[57:48] Sarah Goodman: We love Jerry Herman.

[57:49] T. Oliver Reid: Um, do you have a favorite Jerry Herman song?

[57:52] T. Oliver Reid: Oh, there's so many. I mean, honestly, the one I think is it well, it's the big gay anthem, but I Am What I Am. I feel like that song really sort of, you know, one has withstood the test of time, but there's something about it that feels honest and authentic to me, and I think to so many people.

[58:08] T. Oliver Reid: So that'll be that would be one of my favorites. I have to say other stories like you know, the shows we started with, you know, Gary Beach and Daniel Davis. Daniel left us abruptly.

[58:23] T. Oliver Reid: And you got some tea there or yes. And then we got Robert Goulet, who you know, was it Song of the Sand, like he was his Goulet's voice was just so fantastic still at that point. But this man would make up a lyric.

[58:39] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah, and you'd be like, you'd literally be listening to him as like that was so beautiful. That was not the right lyric. That was not what he's supposed to be singing. But again, like vocabulary was so strong over so many years of singing so many people's material. He would sing something and you would think it was the right thing, even when you notice like he just made that up on stage.

[58:56] T. Oliver Reid: Wow. But yeah, so like that kind of thing. But so T for Daniel. So we were doing the show. Um, the relationship between Gary and Daniel was pretty volatile from the very beginning, unfortunately.

[59:12] T. Oliver Reid: And we after one Sunday matinee, we had all gone to like get a drink somewhere on 9th Avenue. And in comes, I'm in comes one of our cast members. I'm not gonna give you his name, but it may have been Michael Benjamin Washington, who's like, um, something is going on.

[59:28] T. Oliver Reid: And so we're all there, and they literally, after the matinee, packed up Daniel's room for him, sent all of his stuff to him, and told him he didn't need to come back to the theater. It was still it was it was unfortunate all the way around.

[59:42] T. Oliver Reid: But wow, yeah, it was, yeah, there were we had we had we had some moments on that show. There are definitely shows like you do, and you're like you learn from you learn from the amazing things that happen, but you also learn from the things like oh yeah, gonna try to avoid that.

[59:56] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[59:56] T. Oliver Reid: You need to try to avoid that.

[59:58] Kristen Goodman: Try to avoid that, yeah.

[59:59] T. Oliver Reid: Yes.

[1:00:00] Sarah Goodman: Wow. It must have improved the morale then after that. Did everyone get along better with Robert Goulet?

[1:00:07] T. Oliver Reid: He was fantastic. Other than not knowing those lyrics. But he was fantastic. He made it work.

[1:00:12] Kristen Goodman: Sounds like he made it work.

[1:00:15] T. Oliver Reid: He could use profanity on your show.

[1:00:18] Sarah Goodman: Absolutely.

[1:00:19] T. Oliver Reid: Okay, so his I think it was his first night on. So he gets through almost the entire show. End of the show, he's making the big speech, curtain comes down. He's like, microphone's still on. Where the fuck am I supposed to go?

[1:00:31] Kristen Goodman: We're all like this.

[1:00:37] T. Oliver Reid: Yes, but no, he he was fantastic. It was an amazing, it was an amazing cast, like across the board.

[1:00:45] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[1:00:46] T. Oliver Reid: How quickly did that turnaround happen? Was um, was there an understudy or cover that went on for a few performances that week?

[1:00:54] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah, at that point, um, oh gosh. I'm blanking on John's last name, but Brian Bat and John Hilliard, I think is his last was his last name were the two covers. But this is also after, like we had one night we started the show, Daniel was still in, he coughed and then coughed again, and then said, ladies and gentlemen, I must stop the show. Have to let you know that 15 minutes before the show, I came down with viral laryngitis, so I'm not gonna be able to go on. My understudy will go on. Thank you, thank you.

[1:01:25] T. Oliver Reid: Understudy it had no rehearsals. We were still in previews.

[1:01:27] Kristen Goodman: Oh my god.

[1:01:28] T. Oliver Reid: So literally, we're all like, we're all like this, and curtain comes in. They start to like try and get some costumes for the understudy. Jerry Zach's Jerry Mitchell go on stage and turn and start to answer questions from the audience so that they have a little to buy a little time.

[1:01:46] Kristen Goodman: Wow.

[1:01:48] T. Oliver Reid: Good times.

[1:01:49] Kristen Goodman: Wow.

[1:01:50] T. Oliver Reid: This is mid-production. Like this is.

[1:01:51] Kristen Goodman: This is.

[1:01:52] T. Oliver Reid: This is maybe 20 minutes into the first act.

[1:01:56] Kristen Goodman: Oh my god.

[1:01:56] T. Oliver Reid: This is the first, that first number. I can't think that uh George and Alban sing, uh yeah. It's like it's early in the show, and we're all we literally are all like what is going on. Is this really happening?

[1:02:10] Kristen Goodman: Yes.

[1:02:10] T. Oliver Reid: Wow, that's so intense.

[1:02:11] T. Oliver Reid: So they hadn't been rehearsed. They're not, I'm sure they're not in makeup or costume at all. They're just kind of hanging out back there.

[1:02:17] T. Oliver Reid: You know, so that that happened. And then after after after Daniel left the production, it was I feel like it was fairly quick. I mean, it I don't think it was a full two weeks before Goulet was in.

[1:02:30] Kristen Goodman: Yeah.

[1:02:30] T. Oliver Reid: Wow.

[1:02:31] T. Oliver Reid: Uh yeah.

[1:02:31] Kristen Goodman: Oh my goodness.

[1:02:33] T. Oliver Reid: Yes.

[1:02:34] T. Oliver Reid: That's show biz, baby.

[1:02:36] Kristen Goodman: That is show biz.

[1:02:38] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah. Um, I'm trying to think if there's like another. There was like there was a cost again. It's like it's those moments in shows where like, oh, I forgot to tell them that we weren't using that anymore.

[1:02:47] Kristen Goodman: Yeah.

[1:02:48] T. Oliver Reid: Uh we had we had a costume that one of the last one of the last scenes was going to be sort of set in the Far East. And so Willie My Belong, who's costume designer, had designed these fantastic kimonos for all the cajels.

[1:03:00] T. Oliver Reid: And there was a milliner who had made these head pieces. And when I said head pieces, they were one of them was like a Japanese like rock garden on a hat. Wow and like drag huge dragonflies and things. There were these fantastic. I mean, some of the most almost like Bob Mackey kind of big pieces. Some of the most beautiful things I think I've ever seen.

[1:03:22] T. Oliver Reid: And they made it on stage one day and it was like, yeah, they're cut.

[1:03:28] Kristen Goodman: Oh, oh no.

[1:03:29] T. Oliver Reid: Ouch. Yeah. Yeah.

[1:03:30] T. Oliver Reid: But the the ouch was then they they ripped the head pieces apart so they could use the skull caps that had been molded for people's heads. I mean, literally, I've I've never I've never seen costume people. That poor milliner crying crying backstage at like the kind of the work that was done. It's like not doing it all.

[1:03:44] Kristen Goodman: Oh, they took them apart.

[1:03:47] T. Oliver Reid: That's painful.

[1:03:49] T. Oliver Reid: I still think that William Ibelong has all those kimonos hidden somewhere because we never saw them again.

[1:03:55] Kristen Goodman: All right.

[1:03:56] T. Oliver Reid: I want mine. I want to we'll have to try to track that down.

[1:04:00] Kristen Goodman: Yeah.

[1:04:01] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah.

[1:04:04] T. Oliver Reid: Well, thank you for sharing all of those stories from that. Sounds like there was a little bit of high drama happening that too.

[1:04:11] Sarah Goodman: With gay men and drag queens?

[1:04:13] T. Oliver Reid: Shocking.

[1:04:14] Sarah Goodman: Shocking.

[1:04:15] T. Oliver Reid: Yes.

[1:04:16] T. Oliver Reid: Yes.

[1:04:17] Sarah Goodman: Theater people, drama.

[1:04:18] T. Oliver Reid: Oh my goodness.

[1:04:19] T. Oliver Reid: One more.

[1:04:20] T. Oliver Reid: Okay. So one of one of our one of our early like party nights out. We're all out, and we're we look over and we see two of the Kajos kissing. We say, We told you not this. You cannot bring that in the dressing room.

[1:04:31] T. Oliver Reid: A couple weeks later, they were no longer seeing each other and just mad. They're like, we told you. We told you not to do it. You gotta keep a separation of work life and that's why they say don't shit where you eat, right?

[1:04:44] Kristen Goodman: They and they mean that.

[1:04:46] T. Oliver Reid: You should not.

[1:04:48] T. Oliver Reid: All right. Enough of my enough on my story.

[1:04:50] Sarah Goodman: No, we love your story.

[1:04:52] Kristen Goodman: We have story time.

[1:04:53] T. Oliver Reid: We could listen to it all day.

[1:04:56] T. Oliver Reid: Um, so in 2019, you co-founded the Black Theater Coalition. The organization's mission is to remove the quote illusion of inclusion in the American theater by building a sustainable ethical roadmap that will increase employment opportunities for black theater professionals. The vision is to reshape the working ecosystem for those who have been marginalized by systemically racist and biased ideology. So can you tell us more about the Black Theater Coalition and what kinds of initiatives the organization is currently working on?

[1:04:56] T. Oliver Reid: Again yes, so this started in 2019 around the murder of George Floyd and clearly the pandemic that shut us all down for a little while. Our early thoughts were that we wanted to put together some type of concert series that is still still in the works that would shine light on the black professionals that were working in theater. What we didn't want to do was sort of recycle the same people over and over which has tended to happen. So when there's one person who gets an opportunity, let's use them until we use them up. Yeah, we wanted to make sure that you know as we were building an organization we were shining that light and giving new given giving new people opportunities, people who had worked regionally or off Broadway but never had that chance to work on the level or scale of Broadway.

[1:06:18] T. Oliver Reid: Then of course there was the pandemic and everything shut down so it gave us time to really sort of redefine what we wanted to do and focus in on the idea of because so many had not been given the opportunity so many may not know how to make that jump from regional theater to Broadway or from off Broadway to Broadway. So one of the things we wanted to do was to figure out how to implement fellowships and apprenticeships. We leave the word internship out because internships are usually for young people whose family have some influence or affluence and have connections for them and they can afford to work in New York City for a MetroCard and $100 a month. Right. Most people can't do that. So we've sort of struck that word from our thought process so we really are looking at these paid experiences.

Our fellowships are anywhere from six to twelve months. The apprenticeships are shorter. Well we've when we first started the apprenticeships really lived in a world of as Broadway shows were reopening we wanted to have apprentices on those shows really learning this sort of quick process as to what it looks like to get back.

[1:07:23] T. Oliver Reid: The revival of Company was the first show that jumped on they I mean they jumped in with both feet what can we do? How do we do this? And so many then for the fellowships so many organizations that operate on Broadway so many of the general management companies as well as so many producers and shows who wanted to be a part of it who said yes we realize that there's an issue something that we should have fixed years ago but this is the moment that we're in. So now we have our Broadway fellowship and again they run the gamut of general management fellows that are 24 months company managers, directors, choreographers, all those creative areas as well as marketing PR etc those are all 12 months.

We have a regional fellowship with Broadway Across America and that's a 14 week program that's from January through April working in their regional offices across our across America. That's this hence their name. Right. But so that young people have an opportunity to work in their offices and see what it's like to work in ticketing or work in marketing PR or work in any number of areas in those offices.

[1:08:37] Sarah Goodman: Wonderful. Well obviously it's work that needs to be done, and we are appreciative that folks like yourself are getting out there and leading the way for that effort.

[1:08:47] T. Oliver Reid: Thanks.

[1:08:47] Sarah Goodman: Thank you very much.

[1:08:48] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah, listeners, if you want to support the Black Theater Coalition, you can find them online at BlackTheaterCoalition.org slash support. That's theater with an RE Black Theater Coalition.

[1:08:59] Sarah Goodman: Thanks.

[1:09:00] T. Oliver Reid: Thanks.

[1:09:03] Sarah Goodman: I love that so much.

[1:09:05] T. Oliver Reid: That's the button each time.

[1:09:06] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[1:09:07] T. Oliver Reid: Absolutely.

[1:09:08] T. Oliver Reid: Listen, don't even have to say the word anymore.

[1:09:09] Sarah Goodman: It's just Thanks.

[1:09:11] T. Oliver Reid: We know.

[1:09:15] Sarah Goodman: Amazing.

[1:09:17] T. Oliver Reid: Um so as an acting professor at NYU Tisch and Columbia and other universities, you interact with a lot of young people who are hoping to make it in theater and entertainment. So what advice do you give them today for how to build a career in this industry?

[1:09:36] T. Oliver Reid: Because I want to know too.

[1:09:37] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah. I teach an undergrad at Ryder University out in New Jersey. Good Bronx. We're in the middle. Where we just started rehearsals for Natasha Pierre, the great comedy of 1812.

[1:09:48] T. Oliver Reid: All right. Um, and then also at NYU and the grad acting program. And for me, it's always about like wanting to make sure that I can part whatever wisdom I've received over, you know, 20 almost 25 years in the industry to another generation. I feel like that's a part of all of our jobs. Like whatever we know that we can we can give to the next generation, that's what we should do. But I do think it's like it's fortitude. It's now it's like, what does self-care look like? And what what does it look like to to make decisions that feel good for you as opposed to oh, I need to do everything, I need to go to every audition, I need to be in every moment. Some of that's great, but some of that is you gotta you have to figure out how to as I was telling actually telling students this week's like how do you compartmentalize in a way that allows you to do all the things you need to do and not overstress, not wear yourself out, not pull yourself out of the game before you you're even really in the game. Right.

[1:10:41] T. Oliver Reid: Uh so it's a lot of those conversations on top of the could you please learn your lines? Could you please learn that note in that song because you've been singing the wrong note for the past two weeks, we gotta get that.

[1:10:51] T. Oliver Reid: So those things are, you know, a part of the struggle as well. And these like, you know, what do you do when you have COVID or a cold and you can't sing, or you've sprained your ankle for the third time in the same dance class? How what are you doing that's really taking care of yourself? And you know, is that again you need more sleep, or you need to drink water, or what does that self-care look like for you, or are you doing all the things you need to with physical therapy, etc. to take care of this vessel that you're only getting one of.

[1:11:22] Kristen Goodman: Right.

[1:11:23] T. Oliver Reid: Absolutely. And I learned sometimes the hard way with La Cage, I was okay. So they thought that I had ruptured a vocal cord. So I would, but I was like, I was out for like that happened on a Sunday. I think I was back in the show on a Thursday. Like went to the ENT, they shot me up with something, and I came back and it was definitely weaker. But I also think, you know, I wasn't only singing the soprano line in the show. I would sing the soprano line as Chantal, but for everything else, I was singing veritones. I think it was more the going back and forth that was like my chords are like, we're not doing any more of that. Thank you very much. Exhausting. Um, but it is like, like how do you take care of yourself like when you get an injury and what that looks like for you?

I mean, it always goes back then to, I'll call it another great gay show, A Chorus Line. In that what you know, what are you gonna do when you can't do this thing anymore? Or what are you gonna do when you injure yourself in a way that makes you feel like, oh, I gotta rethink this career.

[1:12:19] Kristen Goodman: Right.

[1:12:19] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah. Um, and how do you keep pressing forward and knowing that it's like, yeah, I can do this, I just have to now make sure that I'm maintaining this ankle, or I know that, you know, this third rib on this side is always gonna be problematic for me. So, what do I need to do in order to maintain that so that I can do the stuff I want to do?

[1:12:36] Kristen Goodman: Absolutely.

[1:12:37] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah. Do you think the culture of Broadway and theater in general is shifting slowly and focusing more on self-care and like self-preservation and that kind of attitude?

[1:12:48] Kristen Goodman: Yes, I don't think it's as quickly as everyone said that it would be during the pandemic when everyone's like, oh, everyone was for self-care, everyone was for let's look into HR and make sure that everyone is taking care of it.

[1:13:00] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah, let's not do eight shows a week.

[1:13:03] Kristen Goodman: Right.

[1:13:04] T. Oliver Reid: They came right back to it, 10 out of 12.

[1:13:06] Kristen Goodman: Yeah.

[1:13:07] T. Oliver Reid: Absolutely. So I think there is still conversation about it, and I hope we'll get to a point. And also I think it's, I think people are taking a little more agency for themselves and saying, whether the producers or equity or the league or whoever says we're switching the number of shows we're doing every week. I know that for my body, I'm doing eight this week. Next week, if something's feeling off, I'm going to not do those eight. And luckily you have great swings and covers who are in these shows who can step in for you. But I think more and more people are making those decisions more honestly for themselves, as opposed to I'm kind of okay, so I'm gonna hobble in. I think more people are like, you know what? It's not worth it.

[1:13:50] Kristen Goodman: Yeah.

[1:13:51] T. Oliver Reid: I'm gonna sit this one out.

[1:13:52] Kristen Goodman: Yeah, yeah.

[1:13:53] T. Oliver Reid: And there's maybe less shame in just calling in your understudy for a performance.

[1:13:57] Kristen Goodman: Yeah.

[1:13:58] T. Oliver Reid: For sure, yeah.

[1:13:58] Kristen Goodman: Yeah.

[1:13:59] T. Oliver Reid: That's great to hear.

[1:14:00] Kristen Goodman: Yeah. So, you know, we called this podcast Good Show, and so we obviously have strong opinions about what makes a good show. But we want to know your opinion. What makes a good show? And then what are some of your favorite shows?

[1:14:13] T. Oliver Reid: I think, oh, what I think it depends, I think it differs from show to show. Sometimes it's a cast that feels so connected. I remember like there are other times it's like going in in that first moment of like hearing the orchestra like changes something in you. Um, I'll say like there have been many, many revivals of Gypsy, and there were some that people liked very little, but I have to tell you there was one that like I went in and was not the favorite of many people. And I heard that trumpet at the top of that overture, and it was like, yeah, I'm about to get my life. I'm about to, I'm about to fully invest myself in this evening. So I think it depends on one, what your mindset is when you're going in that night, what you need.

Like sometimes like you need a good, happy show no matter what, and when you get one of those, it makes you feel good. Sometimes you need to go in and have that release of a tear and you get that moment. And for me, sometimes that's a thing. But I love when it feels like the cast is synced.

[1:15:16] Kristen Goodman: Yeah.

[1:15:17] T. Oliver Reid: You know, you go to some of those shows, you're like, oh yeah, they are enjoying this. For me, like one of the shows, like we had a fantastic time, La Cage. I think we all still have torn hamstrings from it that we're still dealing with still. Jerry. Jerry Mitchell, what were you doing in the cast thing? I think, yeah, I do I think someone said at one point we ended we did each like 68 jump splits a week.

[1:15:42] Kristen Goodman: Those jump splits.

[1:15:43] T. Oliver Reid: Oh my god.

[1:15:45] Kristen Goodman: 68 a week.

[1:15:46] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah. Ooh, wee. That hurts my hamstrings just thinking about it. Listen, it was a lot. There were several heels of boots that popped people in the forehead out in the house. Because we were saying we're grown men wearing these boots that were made for female identifying dancers. And so the heels, the heels were not necessarily as strong as they need to be. So we would jump over that passerella into a split, heel pop right off.

[1:16:11] Kristen Goodman: Oh my god.

[1:16:12] T. Oliver Reid: And it would just go flinging out and just go flying right into the house.

[1:16:15] Kristen Goodman: Yeah.

[1:16:15] T. Oliver Reid: So we had a couple of those. But like Wedding Singer was another show for me that like the cast was so synced that it was just a great experience. Some shows that I've seen recently. Well, I'm, I'll forever be in love with the Hadestown sound.

[1:16:32] Kristen Goodman: Like, so that show is always a lot of things.

[1:16:33] T. Oliver Reid: We are too.

[1:16:34] Kristen Goodman: We're in Hadestown.

[1:16:35] T. Oliver Reid: It's a good show.

[1:16:37] Kristen Goodman: You can feel that collective camaraderie and the ensemble in that show for sure.

[1:16:42] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah, there's a magic that's being created there.

[1:16:45] Kristen Goodman: Yeah.

[1:16:46] T. Oliver Reid: Thanks. Yeah, we had a good time with that. I'm telling you, what I saw, we saw some, yeah, I think it depends on the show. Like we saw Ja Ja's Hair Braiding last week, which like those characters, and especially the one supporting character who comes out as like four different women. Like it's like, when you see something fun like that, that to me is like that brings joy. But also, like some of the shows that always do, like, you know, again, almost any of the Sondheim shows are like for me, it's like you just want to lean forward into them. Um, yeah, I like to see the things that are giving new people opportunities again. It's like that for me is like exciting when you have something that's not a star vehicle, but something that is a star turn for someone who we don't know as well.

Like for me, that's fantastic. And that's a part of, you know, what feels like it's great theater for me when we're seeing something new happening as opposed to, oh that person's great, but we knew they were gonna be great. Let's see someone new who is on the cusp of stardom or something fantastic and be able to enjoy that too.

[1:17:54] Kristen Goodman: Oh yeah, absolutely.

[1:17:55] T. Oliver Reid: Always so exciting when someone, especially like a legitimate theater actor, gets to have their moment like that.

[1:18:03] Kristen Goodman: For sure.

[1:18:03] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah. Like the, okay, another different story, different show story. So Sutton Foster, Thoroughly Modern Millie. Every night when she got, every night when she got to throw to Gimme Gimme, all the ensemble we stopped what we were doing backstage. We felt like we were all willing her with whatever she needed to get through the end of that song. So every night, we'd be talking blah blah blah blah blah. Gimme, give me that thing, everything stopped.

[1:18:26] Kristen Goodman: Wow.

[1:18:27] T. Oliver Reid: And we waited for her to finish before we did anything else. Just to give her the emotional support from backstage.

[1:18:35] Kristen Goodman: That gave me chills.

[1:18:36] T. Oliver Reid: Me too. That's really, really amazing. What a fun show.

[1:18:40] Kristen Goodman: Oh my God.

[1:18:41] T. Oliver Reid: Probably also very exhausting, all the dance in that show.

[1:18:44] Kristen Goodman: Oh, listen, could never remember the choreography on Tuesday night. Every Tuesday we come in, and that Sutton would be at the end of Not for the Life of Me, and I'd be off stage, stage downstage left and like, I don't remember the choreography. I don't know, I know we're gonna, I know what we're doing. And then I would throw myself on stage and was like, Oh, this is what we're doing. The muscle memory somehow every week.

[1:19:04] T. Oliver Reid: Oh my god, that's terrifying.

[1:19:07] Kristen Goodman: Yeah.

[1:19:09] T. Oliver Reid: I love it.

[1:19:10] Kristen Goodman: Oh my goodness. So, we recently were enjoying your solo album, Do I Love You? Um, it's available in anywhere there's streaming, also on CD. And I had the pleasure of being your mixing engineer at 54 Below for your cabaret show a few months back that was all full of love songs. Are you planning to record again? And do you have any other cabaret shows in the works? Like your cabaret show is stunning, it was absolutely beautiful, all about love songs. Your voice is so amazing, and these songs you picked had so much heart.

[1:19:47] T. Oliver Reid: So that arrangement of Over the Rainbow.

[1:19:51] Kristen Goodman: Oh wow, like my god, the Over the Rainbow.

[1:19:53] T. Oliver Reid: We're dying.

[1:19:54] Kristen Goodman: Gorgeous, thank you, gorgeous.

[1:19:56] T. Oliver Reid: Larry Urman.

[1:19:57] Kristen Goodman: Larry Yeerman, who was one of our pianists on Thoroughly Modern Millie. That's when I first met Larry. And then probably I guess 10 years ago when I started dabbling in cabaret, and it was the I gotta figure out someone who helped me with an arrangement. It's like, was thanks was Larry Urban. Thanks. And so, like we've worked together ever since then, and we have some crazy shorthand when we're working on songs and arrangements, and that's all Larry.

[1:20:27] Kristen Goodman: Yeah, it's fantastic.

[1:20:29] T. Oliver Reid: It's one of my favorite songs, but that arrangement like blows me away.

[1:20:34] Kristen Goodman: Yeah, it's so beautiful. I'm so glad that we have that on a recording of you singing that song because obviously that song is so important to the queer community, has been forever. And your arrangement of it just, it's got so much soul and I love when you go up into that belt.

[1:20:51] T. Oliver Reid: Thank you. But yeah, and so there will be and we'll go back to some more cabaret shows with Hadestown and school and everything, it's just taking a moment. I think it's also I'm approaching apparently my 25th year on Broadway, so I'm thinking I'm gonna do something that here's the, I used to have this idea of like I was gonna do a show with like I'm gonna do songs from all the shows that I never booked. So just like all of those, but there will be something coming up, I just haven't figured out exactly the in to all the music yet.

[1:21:25] Kristen Goodman: Well you're a very exciting busy person doing all the things so I'm sure it takes a while to squeeze all that in.

[1:21:31] T. Oliver Reid: Yeah.

[1:21:32] Kristen Goodman: It takes a moment, it takes a moment. Amazing. Um, where can the Good Show listeners find you on stage and online?

[1:21:32] T. Oliver Reid: T. Oliver Reid Facebook, Instagram, and X all at T. Oliver Reid. Um, I'm trying to think where else. I mean, you've talked about where they can listen to me this CD and we'll see, we have some things in the work as far as getting back on stage. So hopefully sometime this spring you'll see my name and my face in some places.

[1:22:08] Kristen Goodman: Okay.

[1:22:09] T. Oliver Reid: We're excited, we'll be there.

[1:22:10] Kristen Goodman: We are huge fans, T. Oliver Reid.

[1:22:13] T. Oliver Reid: Ah, thank you, yes. And any other thoughts you got over there, Kristen?

[1:22:17] Kristen Goodman: Um, I'm just, you know, really grateful for people like you who are, you know, not only educating the next generation, but also, you know, giving back to the community and supporting in ways like with through the Black Theater Coalition and things like that. So just thanks for all the work you do. You know, you're not just an amazing versatile performer, but you're also helping to build for the next generation. So we appreciate it.

[1:22:39] T. Oliver Reid: We salute you.

[1:22:41] Kristen Goodman: Yes.

[1:22:42] T. Oliver Reid: Yes.

[1:22:42] Kristen Goodman: Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[1:23:08] Sarah Goodman: Hey, Good Show listeners. For the Queer series, we're highlighting the work of a very special nonprofit organization, Broadway Cares Equity Fights AIDS. Since its founding in 1988, BCEFA has raised over 300 million dollars for critically needed services for people with AIDS, HIV, and other illnesses.

[1:23:31] Kristen Goodman: You may have seen the actors passing the donation buckets at the end of a national tour production or at a Broadway show.

[1:23:38] Sarah Goodman: Right. And Broadway Cares Equity Fights AIDS produces several big events like the Broadway Flea, Broadway Bears, and Broadway Barks with my girl Bernie P, just to name a few. The money they raise goes towards funding grants to over 450 AIDS and family service organizations across all 50 states, Puerto Rico, and Washington, DC. To learn more about how you can support Broadway Cares Equity Fights AIDS by volunteering, making a donation, or attending one of their upcoming events, please visit BroadwayCares.org.

[1:24:11] Kristen Goodman: We hope you've enjoyed this episode of the Queer series. Thanks for following, liking, and leaving a review on your streaming app. Good Show is a part of the Broadway Podcast Network. You can find us on Instagram and TikTok at Good Show Podcast. That's where we post the archival photos and cool stuff we find in the research collection at the Performing Arts Library. It's also where we post info about our upcoming live shows and so much more. Thanks everybody.

[1:24:19] Sarah Goodman: Hey Kristen.

[1:24:19] Kristen Goodman: Good show.

[1:24:42] Sarah Goodman: Hey Sarah.

[1:24:43] Kristen Goodman: Good show.