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[0:00] Kristen Goodman: Hi, I'm Kristen Goodman.

[0:02] Sarah Goodman: I'm Sarah Goodman, and we're Showbiz Siblings.

[0:06] Kristen Goodman: We live in New York City.

[0:08] Sarah Goodman: We're both queer and we love musical theater.

[0:11] Kristen Goodman: This is our podcast.

[0:26] Sarah Goodman: Welcome to our second episode.

[0:28] Kristen Goodman: Today we're celebrating the first musical written by the duo of Richard Rogers and Oscar Hammerstein.

[0:35] Sarah Goodman: Oklahoma.

[0:44] Kristen Goodman: Yao!

[0:45] Sarah Goodman: The original Broadway production opened in 1943 and played for an unprecedented 2,212 shows.

[0:54] Kristen Goodman: Oklahoma won a special 50th anniversary Tony Award in 1993, which coincidentally is the same year our mom starred in Oklahoma at a Chicago area regional theater called Theater at the Center, where our stepdad was the artistic director.

[1:07] Sarah Goodman: So naturally, this show is very near and dear to our hearts.

[1:11] Kristen Goodman: It's been 30 years since that first season at the center, and 30 years since we moved to Chicago from our hometown of Fort Collins, Colorado.

[1:20] Sarah Goodman: Our mom and dad had just gotten divorced, and we were the new kids in the big city.

[1:25] Kristen Goodman: Life was a bit tumultuous at times, but those summer stock seasons in Munster, Indiana served as our playground in a lot of ways.

[1:33] Sarah Goodman: We fell in love with so many classic shows, and we got to see what it takes to create professional high quality musical theater.

[1:41] Kristen Goodman: As part of the 30th anniversary celebration of that opening season, we took a road trip home to Chicago to talk with our mom Jenny and our stepdad Gary about their memories from theater at the center.

[1:54] Gary Giocomo: She had the best audition I've ever heard in my life. She came in to audition for Oklahoma for Aunt Eller. And I said, What are you going to say? She said, Well, something special. I said, Okay. And she said and she sang all of Eller's lines from the whole show.

[2:10] Sarah Goodman: It was great.

[2:11] Kristen Goodman: That's hilarious.

[2:12] Gary Giocomo: All her singing lines.

[2:13] Sarah Goodman: Oh my gosh.

[2:14] Gary Giocomo: Very clever.

[2:15] Kristen Goodman: That's really funny.

[2:16] Gary Giocomo: Very clever. But she was one of those people, I mean, she'd been in all the theaters in that county for years.

[2:24] Kristen Goodman: Wow.

[2:25] Gary Giocomo: So she was kind of like the local star, like Lee Pelty, you know.

[2:30] Kristen Goodman: And she's still going strong.

[2:32] Gary Giocomo: Really?

[2:33] Kristen Goodman: In Colorado.

[2:34] Gary Giocomo: Yeah.

[2:34] Kristen Goodman: Wow.

[2:35] Gary Giocomo: Yeah.

[2:35] Kristen Goodman: Wow.

[2:35] Gary Giocomo: But see, that was the same thing in Colorado. The leads were the curly was good, the Judd was good, and the women were good.

[2:44] Kristen Goodman: So that was you pushed that every time.

[2:47] Gary Giocomo: Right.

[2:47] Kristen Goodman: Whether they were supposed to be in the scene or not.

[2:50] Gary Giocomo: Right.

[2:51] Kristen Goodman: Hey and they're so in the contrast to that was Carol Brown as Eller in Munster.

[2:59] Gary Giocomo: She was so good, but she was not a glamorous Eller. She was like she was a ball El Comedy.

[3:05] Kristen Goodman: Well, and I was talking Sharon into that because I wanted her. I said, Don't worry about it.

[3:10] Gary Giocomo: Oh, and look good at Fort Collins.

[3:12] Kristen Goodman: Yeah. But for Eller in Munster. That was Carol's best role.

[3:15] Gary Giocomo: Oh, she was so funny. She was like, Don't you think she was so cute? And and the the um the the auction.

[3:22] Sarah Goodman: Mm-hmm.

[3:22] Gary Giocomo: Yeah.

[3:23] Sarah Goodman: Yes.

[3:23] Gary Giocomo: Really seemed so funny.

[3:24] Kristen Goodman: That's a tough scene.

[3:26] Gary Giocomo: It's repetitive. First of all, you have to be doing math while you're saying no one knows what bits are anymore.

[3:32] Sarah Goodman: Yeah, right.

[3:33] Gary Giocomo: Remember the flea market in Fort Collins that we would always go to, and then we would go to the Hickory House to eat afterwards across the street.

[3:41] Kristen Goodman: And I found a wig there for three dollars.

[3:44] Sarah Goodman: Wow.

[3:45] Kristen Goodman: And I brought it and I showed it to Lou, and he's like, oh my god. He goes, Well, I'm putting I'll put this in the washing machine because it's not on, but we'll and that was my Laurie wig.

[3:45] Sarah Goodman: Oh my god.

[3:56] Kristen Goodman: And it was a wig. Basically a mullet, and he said, We'll put it on backwards.

[4:01] Sarah Goodman: Oh wow.

[4:02] Kristen Goodman: That is hilarious.

[4:04] Sarah Goodman: And it was pretty.

[4:04] Kristen Goodman: It was pretty pretty wig.

[4:06] Sarah Goodman: The early 90s.

[4:07] Kristen Goodman: Yeah.

[4:08] Sarah Goodman: He needed it right now.

[4:09] Kristen Goodman: He washed it in the washing machine, hung it out to dry on a line, and then styled it.

[4:14] Sarah Goodman: Wow.

[4:15] Kristen Goodman: This is terrible. If you listened to our first episode, then you know about our new obsession with Toft.

[4:21] Sarah Goodman: Yes.

[4:21] Kristen Goodman: If you're in the New York City area, we highly recommend you go to the New York Performing Arts Library in Lincoln Center, where they have the Theater on Film and Tape archive.

[4:31] Sarah Goodman: Obviously, the original 1943 Broadway production of Oklahoma wasn't filmed for Toft, but we did get to watch a recording of the 2019 Revival.

[4:42] Kristen Goodman: This production won the Tony Award for Best Revival, but did it get the good show stamp of approval? Let's find out.

[4:53] Sarah Goodman: All right, so today.

[4:55] Kristen Goodman: Today we set forth on a journey.

[4:58] Sarah Goodman: Um deed.

[5:01] Kristen Goodman: We went to Toft today, the Theater on Film and Tape Archive at the Lincoln Center Library, the New York Public Library.

[5:09] Sarah Goodman: And we watched the Daniel Fish 2019 production of Oklahoma.

[5:16] Kristen Goodman: Hoo wee.

[5:18] Sarah Goodman: Yao.

[5:19] Kristen Goodman: It was at Circle in the Square.

[5:21] Sarah Goodman: And it was not what I expected at all.

[5:24] Kristen Goodman: I did not know we were in for this adventure today.

[5:27] Sarah Goodman: Yeah, um, everyone I knew was calling it the sexy Oklahoma.

[5:32] Kristen Goodman: And I knew that it was like instruments on stage and like a pared down band and like some interesting casting choices, but I was not expecting any of what we saw today.

[5:47] Sarah Goodman: Yeah, and the people who call it sexy Oklahoma, I'm not sure if they actually saw the show.

[5:56] Kristen Goodman: Because it didn't seem sexy to me.

[5:59] Sarah Goodman: It was sexual.

[6:01] Kristen Goodman: Yeah, it was sexed up.

[6:02] Sarah Goodman: Sexed up.

[6:04] Kristen Goodman: But sexy.

[6:07] Sarah Goodman: Not so much.

[6:08] Kristen Goodman: Eye of the beholder, but definitely weird and uncomfy.

[6:14] Sarah Goodman: The band on stage was cute. I liked their like really uh what do you call it? Like really toned down arrangements or not toned down. Like pared down, like I really liked the pared down arrangements, and it almost seemed like it could be like a little band in a pub or something.

[6:35] Kristen Goodman: And when we first started watching, I was like, oh, this is gonna be like set in a barn party or something.

[6:41] Sarah Goodman: It looked like a little barn party. There was like crock pots on some raw wood tables, so many matching crock pots.

[6:49] Kristen Goodman: Because you know, a lot of crockets. The Dorst Bull pioneer people really loved their crock pots.

[6:53] Sarah Goodman: Love a crock pot.

[6:54] Kristen Goodman: They love a crock pot back then.

[6:57] Sarah Goodman: That's all they did.

[6:58] Kristen Goodman: They just made chili.

[6:59] Sarah Goodman: There were like gun racks all over the walls and like Mylar, fringe, decor, and some festoons.

[7:07] Kristen Goodman: We love a festoon, very festive.

[7:10] Sarah Goodman: It's cute.

[7:11] Kristen Goodman: Promising.

[7:12] Sarah Goodman: Yeah, I was like, oh, yeah, in the round. This is gonna be cute, you know. Haven't ever seen Oklahoma in the round, but this is gonna be great.

[7:21] Kristen Goodman: Like three-fourths in the round.

[7:23] Sarah Goodman: Yeah, yeah.

[7:24] Kristen Goodman: Um, so I think we should talk a little bit about things that we liked first because there are probably fewer of those things.

[7:36] Sarah Goodman: Yes.

[7:36] Kristen Goodman: Than the things that we did not like about this show.

[7:41] Sarah Goodman: Right.

[7:43] Kristen Goodman: I will say that um I really liked Allie Stroker's voice and interpretation of Ado Annie. I thought she was really fiery and fun and funny, and a lot of the show was not funny, so it was fun to have that element with her character.

[7:59] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[7:59] Kristen Goodman: Yeah. Vocally, she was fun to listen to for sure.

[8:04] Sarah Goodman: I really did like her voice on it.

[8:06] Kristen Goodman: Mm-hmm.

[8:08] Sarah Goodman: Mm-hmm.

[8:09] Kristen Goodman: Liked her.

[8:10] Sarah Goodman: I didn't. I did like the band, you know. I thought that the I also liked the band. You know, did I miss a horn section? Of course. Did I miss the piano at times? Yes. But I really liked what they did with Mandolin and that steel guitar. I thought that was cute.

[8:26] Sarah Goodman: Yeah, I really loved the steel guitar additions in the in the orchestration. I also missed the big orchestra for a show like that. I also miss like the big ensemble vocals.

[8:36] Kristen Goodman: Absolutely, yeah. It's hard to create romance without that big bit orchestra.

[8:41] Sarah Goodman: Mm-hmm.

[8:42] Kristen Goodman: Totally.

[8:44] Sarah Goodman: I thought some of the costumes were cool, but it was confusing that the costumes were like modern clothes.

[8:55] Kristen Goodman: Yeah, I and we weren't in the time period.

[8:59] Sarah Goodman: The time period was confusing in general, not just with the costumes, but with props and definitely the mics and stuff. It kind of felt like we were in like some rural town in Oklahoma in like the eighties or nineties.

[9:16] Kristen Goodman: Yeah, it sort of looked like footloose.

[9:18] Sarah Goodman: Like nineteen eighties.

[9:19] Kristen Goodman: Yeah.

[9:20] Sarah Goodman: Not eighteen eighties.

[9:22] Kristen Goodman: Or like nineteen ten or whenever it's supposed to be. Corsets and bustles and stuff.

[9:27] Sarah Goodman: Right.

[9:28] Kristen Goodman: Everybody's wearing tank tops.

[9:31] Sarah Goodman: So many tank tops.

[9:32] Kristen Goodman: Did not expect to see any tank tops in the production of Oklahoma, but here we were.

[9:39] Sarah Goodman: Multiple tank tops.

[9:40] Kristen Goodman: A lot of tank tops.

[9:41] Sarah Goodman: A lot of tank tops and a hoodie.

[9:43] Kristen Goodman: Hoodie Judd.

[9:43] Sarah Goodman: Judd's wearing a hoodie.

[9:46] Kristen Goodman: Yeah, that was interesting.

[9:48] Sarah Goodman: I really didn't understand. It was like, so there's electricity. Like what's happening?

[9:53] Kristen Goodman: They had microphones. They were singing into microphones a lot.

[9:58] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[9:58] Kristen Goodman: But that yeah, that was a strange choice. I really didn't understand what it was doing for the storytelling.

[10:03] Sarah Goodman: Certainly in the in the smokehouse scene with Curly and Judd in the blackout.

[10:11] Kristen Goodman: Yeah, let's get into it. So this is this is where it quickly becomes critique time. Um that whole smokehouse scene was in the dark. Like almost completely in the dark the whole time.

[10:24] Sarah Goodman: Itch black.

[10:24] Kristen Goodman: Blackout dark. And they were both holding handheld mics. And then at times holding e holding a mic out for the other person. Did you notice that?

[10:36] Sarah Goodman: Yeah, that was so strange.

[10:38] Kristen Goodman: And then a camera person comes out, a c camera cowboy comes out with a video camera. And now we're watching a weird, creepy Blair Witch project.

[10:51] Sarah Goodman: It was Blair Witch, Oklahoma.

[10:53] Kristen Goodman: Blair Witch Oklahoma moment of Juds Up is not close-up. Extreme close up. And then Judd and Curly were like about to make out. Their mouths were like so close as they're singing poor Judd is Jade. Come on.

[11:07] Sarah Goodman: This is like It was homoerotic.

[11:10] Kristen Goodman: It was. But I creepy.

[11:12] Sarah Goodman: Not so creepy.

[11:14] Kristen Goodman: Not hot at all.

[11:15] Sarah Goodman: Not sexy.

[11:15] Kristen Goodman: Not sexy.

[11:16] Sarah Goodman: Very scary.

[11:18] Kristen Goodman: What is happening? They served everyone chili and cornbread.

[11:23] Sarah Goodman: That was so strange.

[11:25] Kristen Goodman: Wow. So again, if you're gonna lean into this like white trash Roseanne spin-off setting, then serving chili and cornbread at the intermission is sort of a cute gimmick because like we're all in on the party, but they didn't even serve it from the crock pots that were on stage.

[11:47] Sarah Goodman: Also, they served it at intermission, which they placed in between Lori taking the smelling salts and the dream ballet.

[11:55] Kristen Goodman: Right.

[11:55] Sarah Goodman: They started act two with the dream ballet.

[11:57] Kristen Goodman: Right.

[11:57] Sarah Goodman: So we're just having chili in the middle of Lori's blackout?

[12:00] Kristen Goodman: It doesn't make sense.

[12:01] Sarah Goodman: She passed out, and we're all gonna get in line and get some cornbread and chili in a cup and eat it at Circle in the Square.

[12:06] Kristen Goodman: What?

[12:07] Sarah Goodman: What?

[12:08] Kristen Goodman: 300 people are eating chili at Circle in the Square? What is this show? Who said this was a good idea?

[12:14] Sarah Goodman: Who?

[12:15] Kristen Goodman: Who?

[12:17] Sarah Goodman: So now we've all had chili and we come back for the dream ballet.

[12:20] Kristen Goodman: Yeah, the weirdest dream ballet I've ever seen. Talk about no time period. A woman comes out in just a t-shirt, no shoes.

[12:29] Sarah Goodman: A sparkly sequin t-shirt that says dream baby dream.

[12:35] Kristen Goodman: Nobody puts baby in a corner.

[12:38] Sarah Goodman: And nobody takes Lori out of this dream.

[12:41] Kristen Goodman: I don't even know what that means, but that's how confusing this dream ballet was.

[12:45] Sarah Goodman: It was so Dream Ballet was pretty much just this dancer who we've never seen before coming out all of a sudden. Um also had no resemblance to Lori.

[12:56] Kristen Goodman: She's supposed to be Dream Lori. So she's supposed to be like Bizarro World Lori. This woman looked nothing like Lori. She had totally different hair. She wasn't in a similar costume. She was barefooted and she was running around like a goblin. She was licking the mic stand and licking her fingers.

[13:12] Sarah Goodman: She was licking things.

[13:30] Sarah Goodman: God, I hope that didn't happen to anyone. I mean, I would have a lot of questions. I would have a lot of questions. I have a question. Why did half a dozen boots fall out of the ceiling and hit the floor? That was a strong choice. And then Judd, when he was frantically chasing after Dream Lori, had to like frantically strike them as he was scooching across the floor. Talking about scooching across the floor, Dream Lori was scooch button it all over the place. What a move. Signature dance move, like a little puppy that has a turd on its butthole, Dingleberry style. So bad. Like this. It was really, really bad and bizarre. No offense to that dancer who was a beautiful dancer. Very talented. And very talented.

But that's choreography. Ooh we wow. Yeah. What does this mean? I wrote so many times. What does this mean? Dream Lori was gay for Gertie, the laughing lady. She was almost kissed her. Everybody was almost kissing all the time. So much mouths, mouth to mouth. But then yet dialogue would happen like 25 feet away from each other. They'd be like hollering to each other from across the room. Yeah. There was a big thing. And then awkwardly holding their mouths up close to each other and breathing. A lot of stages of each other's mouths. And then inside each other's mouths. I don't get it. It made me feel uncomfortable. Then there was another scene with Judd in the dark after the farmer and the cowman. Lori and Judd are in the dark. Heavy breathing all over, and you're like, what the fuck is going on? Belt comes out. It's creepy. I didn't like that.

[15:22] Sarah Goodman: Well, and you know, I'm sure there's a million other things that we could continue to say about this show, but let's just cut right to the most dramatic choice. This is absolutely not what I was expecting to witness today when we went to Toft. Just looking for a little piece of nostalgia, just looking for a little Rogers and Hammerstein classic moment. No, no, no. This production made some very strong choices about the ending. I like I don't even know how to phrase it. Um, Judd gifts Curly a gun, takes it out of the box, hands it to him, cocks it, and basically is like, come on, man, like time for you to shoot me. And they're standing there having this awkward exchange. So much silence at the end of this show.

Just tons and tons of time with just nothing happening. They're all standing there. They're just standing there for what feels like an eternity. And then suddenly, Curly fires the gun. And even though Judd is ten feet away, Curly and Lori have now been their faces are fully splattered with blood. Complete splatter face. Blood all over their faces. All over their faces. What the absolute Judd is still standing there. Yeah, he's still standing there. He does not fall to his face. That's very strange. And then they proceed to do the entire end of the play with blood on their faces, including singing the last reprise of Oklahoma, where Curly picks up his guitar and tries to be all like, let's just smooth this murder over with some fun music.

The audience faces it Yeah. Were so intense. They looked so disturbed. Devastation. Confusion. Fear, and then Judd just gets up. Then he just gets up and sings along in the reprieves. Everybody's back because everyone is like a cast of what? There were four women in the cast. Literally four women, and then what six or seven men, not even something like that. This is a show that normally has like 20 people in it. I'd say like 20 to 30, easily. Yeah, easily. The movie. Oh my gosh, the movie probably had like a hundred and fifty people in it. No joke. Yeah. So we were really devastated by this production today. And it was very traumatic. We had to come home and watch the movie. We had to come home and immediately watch the movie because only Shirley Jones could cleanse our palate from such a terrifying, disturbing version of Oklahoma.

[18:34] Sarah Goodman: I just cannot imagine any Rogers and Hammerstein musical where I would think, you know what would go really good here? If we sprayed blood all over their faces and then had them just bloody faced for the rest of the show. Oh my gosh. Yeah. It's just so many. It was totally unhinged. So many strange choices. And yes, we just felt so traumatized that we had to come home and watch the movie. Well, and we could dig into it for hours, but I jokingly said that the actual subtext of this revival is that Curly is a serial killer. And he's been murdering people for years. And Lori's traumatized, which is why she has no emotion. Yeah. She was just like a zombie dead faced zombie Lori. She was they were not cute.

They didn't have any kind of flirtatious energy. Lori and Curly should be like sassy and flirty with each other and smiley and like kind of snuggly and cute. Yeah. And they were like 25 feet away from each other, just covered in blood. And then covered in blood. It's terrible. So weird. Yeah, so we came home to watch the movie, which was delightful. And um, yeah. So the movie is from 1955. MGM. They spent over 11 million dollars on it, according to this Wikipedia page. That's a lot of money back then. Holy shit. How much do you think that would be now? Like 200 million? I don't know. But yeah, I mean, they spared no expense. They shot it outside. They had like horses and carriages. So many horses and so many horses.

Oh wee. They had flaming chandeliers. Swaming chandeliers in the dream ballet. They had a dream ballet that had actual ballet in it and multiple dancers. Including a dream Lori who looked like Lori. And you know what? We knew it was a dream because of good lighting and storytelling, and not because someone was wearing a t shirt that said dream baby dream. I think I saw that t shirt at Rainbow. Oh my goodness. I'd wear it. It was all a dream. The storytelling, like you said earlier, the stor uh when we were watching the movie, the storytelling in just those couple lines of the dream ballet when Dream Lori is like being coy. Mm-hmm. That did more to tell about her character than the entire show of the revival.

I never knew what Lori's deal was. I didn't either. I kept wondering what was wrong with her. Well, she's traumatized because it's a murderer. Shoots people right in front of her all the time. And then they don't talk about it. And then she's just like stuck, you know.

[21:40] Sarah Goodman: You know, maybe we shouldn't critique Daniel Fish so hard because maybe it is like a brilliant take on like gun violence in small town America. Wow. I just did not see that coming. Maybe he really was like helping us think about um the trauma of rural America in, I don't know, something. Something is I don't know what the point is. It's hard to grasp. It's really hard to grasp. Um, I definitely left it feeling like what? Yeah. And I'm not an idiot, you know. I'm reasonably educated. And you're not an idiot. I've read some books. Um, I did not understand what was happening at all. And usually I can pick up on symbolism even if I don't know exactly what it is they're going for. And I just could not, I could not grasp any of what the concepts were for this revival production.

It was so bizarre. And it did not give me the essence of Oklahoma in any way, shape, or form. Right. And I think that's why maybe, you know, we needed that palette cleanser. We needed to watch the movie, is because this show is so nostalgic to us. Like we know that the essence of Oklahoma is to us at least, I and I'll I'll speak for myself. Like, it's a it's beautiful and it's colorful and it's joyful and it's funny. Yeah. And obviously the subject matter has, you know, it's deeply rooted in some problematic shit. Like it's deeply rooted in that manifest destiny, you know, white people pioneering out through the West. Like that's not necessarily a history that we want to celebrate. But there is a there is an essence of the story that is still worth enjoying, I think.

[24:00] Sarah Goodman: Yeah, absolutely. Because as we were talking about after watching the movie, we're like, oh, this is actually just about these little love stories. You know, it's it's mostly centered around this relationship drama between Lori and Curly and between Ado Annie trying to choose between Allie and Will. And there's a little bit of stuff going on around that, but even though they mention it in the title song, like the show is not about the territory becoming a state. That's just sort of the time period. And I feel like they're just throwing that around as a as a marker of like what era we're supposed to be in, and sort of the general vibe of that time. Mm-hmm. Um but it's not trying to make a political statement one way or another about, you know, colonizers or right, you know, like it's not like I could see how it could feel like, you know, pro US propaganda for sure.

Yeah, which I think it was meant to be when it originally was on Broadway in the 1940s, you know. It opened in 1943 and was like a show that people would see right before they go off to war and stuff, you know. Yeah. Yeah, so like it definitely has that element to it, as all of those classic era shows do, you know, as Rogers and Hammerstein shows definitely have like problematic material. Um but I feel like there were just so many missed opportunities by this revival to take some of those things or some in and and twist it into like a clever statement. And instead it was just like, let's see how much we can traumatize the audience. For real. Yeah, and I think you know, we've we also have such a deep connection with this show because of our family.

Right. Our mom was in this show several times, and the first time I can remember was in Fort Collins, Colorado. Our mom opened a dinner theater called the Carousel Dinner Playhouse, and she played Ado Annie in the opening show of this show, of this dinner theater. Right. Right. And it was so good. That was such a good production. Our then, like our future stepfather, Gary Giacomo, was the director and choreographer of that show. And it was it to me, and I obviously I was very young. I think I was probably nine or ten when that happened. And so I have some memories in my mind of it, but I remember it being colorful and joyful and this capturing of this hope and this essence of the show.

[26:54] Sarah Goodman: Um, I just I did not expect that we were gonna see a Broadway revival that didn't make me feel like that.

[27:03] Kristen Goodman: Like I just I was gonna expect to see triple threat performers dancing their asses off in gorgeous costumes and yeah, instead we saw people standing still in tank tops, kind of slinking around and being weird, yeah.

[27:23] Sarah Goodman: So it was just very strange, but um, yeah, this show is very special to us, and then the second production we saw, I guess, would have been Theater at the Center.

[27:33] Kristen Goodman: Yeah, Theater at the Center in Munster, Indiana, and our mom played Lori in that one.

[27:38] Sarah Goodman: She played Lori, and our family friend Mark Jones played Curly, and man, Mark Jones, he was such an amazing performer.

[27:47] Kristen Goodman: He was in so many of the shows our parents did.

[27:50] Sarah Goodman: He was like the leading man of everything.

[27:52] Kristen Goodman: Yeah.

[27:53] Sarah Goodman: He was a good Curly, he was a really good Curly.

[27:55] Kristen Goodman: I mean, he had such a great voice and was very handsome, and so was like perfect in all those kind of roles that he played like that.

[28:01] Sarah Goodman: Like Curly, and he was Joey in Most Happy Fella.

[28:05] Kristen Goodman: Yes, he was so.

[28:06] Sarah Goodman: He was and he was frequently like the love interest with mom.

[28:10] Kristen Goodman: Right.

[28:10] Sarah Goodman: And so I think I really opposite each other a lot.

[28:14] Kristen Goodman: Yeah.

[28:14] Sarah Goodman: And he was a sweet, sweet, sweet guy in life.

[28:18] Kristen Goodman: Yeah.

[28:19] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[28:20] Kristen Goodman: And so I in my mind's eye of that production, I remember the same thing, like it just being really kind of lush and this like celebration of what musical theater can be with these big, you know, vocals and high notes, and I just I also feel like this show, an important element of this show that was missing from the revival is the community.

[28:44] Kristen Goodman: Yeah.

[28:45] Sarah Goodman: Um part of the reason why I think they titled it Oklahoma and not like Curly and Lori, is because it's supposed to be about all the people in this area.

[28:54] Kristen Goodman: Right.

[28:55] Sarah Goodman: And all the women get ready together at the house.

[29:00] Kristen Goodman: You know, that's something I hadn't really picked up on until both productions we watched today, the movie and the show.

[29:06] Sarah Goodman: Aunt Eller's like, tell all the girls to come get ready here.

[29:10] Kristen Goodman: Right.

[29:11] Sarah Goodman: You know, like that's the community that shows you, like, even though they're in this like wide open spaces and it seems like isolated and desolate, like there are relationships here, and there is a community here, and there's like banding together.

[29:29] Kristen Goodman: Yeah, 100%.

[29:30] Sarah Goodman: And they didn't have an ensemble in this Broadway revival.

[29:34] Kristen Goodman: They just had the lead characters and then like three random extra guys.

[29:38] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[29:40] Kristen Goodman: And it was so odd to not have that big like party scene and to not have the, you know, the big dream ballet and the stuff that where there would be a lot of people, even Kansas City, like not having that be a group number.

[29:56] Sarah Goodman: Right.

[29:57] Kristen Goodman: It was kind of just Will.

[29:58] Sarah Goodman: It's just Will and he was like laying on a table.

[30:00] Kristen Goodman: He wasn't even dancing.

[30:01] Sarah Goodman: Yeah, he was just laying around.

[30:03] Kristen Goodman: So much sitting and laying in this show.

[30:06] Sarah Goodman: Yeah, it kind of made me yearn for the nostalgia of our little regional theater experiences in Colorado and in Munster because what those shows lacked in Broadway budget.

[30:21] Kristen Goodman: They had tons and tons of heart and like actual storytelling and like and things that are entertaining and aesthetically pleasing, which is like part of the old school way.

[30:33] Sarah Goodman: And like I totally support trying to take a classic and like turn it on its ear and like queer it and make it different and like, you know, make it dark and make it whatever.

[30:45] Kristen Goodman: But this was not the way.

[30:46] Sarah Goodman: This was not the way this was not to this was just bad and traumatizing and not sexy.

[30:51] Kristen Goodman: I don't care what people call it.

[30:54] Sarah Goodman: If y'all thought that was sexy, you need to go see some more shows.

[30:57] Kristen Goodman: That's what I'm telling you.

[30:58] Sarah Goodman: You need to get yourself out there to some better entertainment.

[31:01] Kristen Goodman: That was not sexy.

[31:03] Sarah Goodman: Why?

[31:03] Kristen Goodman: Because Gertie made a dick joke while she was husking the corn.

[31:08] Sarah Goodman: Come on.

[31:09] Kristen Goodman: And everybody was doing a lot of vocal fry.

[31:12] Sarah Goodman: So much vocal fry.

[31:15] Kristen Goodman: A lot of kind of yodally yodely moves.

[31:19] Sarah Goodman: Not my cup of tea.

[31:21] Kristen Goodman: No.

[31:22] Sarah Goodman: But you're right, I think tempest in a pot of tea.

[31:26] Kristen Goodman: It was a lot of way too much tempest in this tea.

[31:29] Sarah Goodman: There is way too much tempest in this tea.

[31:34] Kristen Goodman: It does really show you how fortunate we were to grow up with these productions, like these this exposure.

[31:43] Sarah Goodman: Mm-hmm.

[31:47] Kristen Goodman: I d I think obviously not everybody gets to grow up with that situation, and we just got to see so many good shows.

[31:55] Sarah Goodman: And uh I thought this was gonna be another one, but we might have to rename this episode.

[32:02] Kristen Goodman: Not good show.

[32:04] Sarah Goodman: Not a good show.

[32:05] Kristen Goodman: Unfortunately not.

[32:07] Sarah Goodman: It did not quite make the cut.

[32:10] Kristen Goodman: I was just really hoping for that dose of nostalgia.

[32:13] Sarah Goodman: It's okay.

[32:13] Kristen Goodman: We got it with the movie.

[32:14] Sarah Goodman: We didn't think about our memories of our mom being adorable in that show.

[32:21] Kristen Goodman: She was so good.

[32:22] Sarah Goodman: Hamming it up as eight-o' Annie in four columns.

[32:25] Kristen Goodman: So versatile.

[32:26] Sarah Goodman: And then playing Lori.

[32:28] Kristen Goodman: Playing Lori.

[32:29] Sarah Goodman: Singing with her pretty soprano voice.

[32:32] Kristen Goodman: Mm-hmm.

[32:34] Sarah Goodman: I kind of missed the outside of the house set too.

[32:39] Kristen Goodman: Yeah, there was no set whatsoever.

[32:43] Sarah Goodman: So yeah, I kind of missed all of that.

[32:45] Kristen Goodman: Well, there was a wall with doors on it.

[32:48] Sarah Goodman: And there were some gun racks in the room.

[32:49] Kristen Goodman: They did spend a lot of money on gun racks.

[32:52] Sarah Goodman: I kind of wish they'd gone more.

[32:54] Kristen Goodman: If they were gonna go like dark Oklahoma, I wish they would have done like Westworld sort of vibe or

[32:54] Sarah Goodman: That would have been cool.

[33:02] Kristen Goodman: Something a little more.

[33:02] Sarah Goodman: Yeah, or like um dystopian reality like type thing.

[33:09] Kristen Goodman: Like Yeah.

[33:10] Sarah Goodman: Steampunk Dust Bowl kind of people, or like some kind of even like a seedy burlesque saloon.

[33:21] Kristen Goodman: Yeah.

[33:22] Sarah Goodman: Would have been cool.

[33:25] Kristen Goodman: Yeah, or like, I don't know, even something wild like Afrofuturism or something.

[33:30] Sarah Goodman: Like, but make it make sense.

[33:32] Kristen Goodman: Yeah.

[33:33] Sarah Goodman: And make it be a world.

[33:34] Kristen Goodman: Stick to it.

[33:35] Sarah Goodman: Like build the world.

[33:37] Kristen Goodman: I don't think they built the world.

[33:38] Sarah Goodman: World.

[33:39] Kristen Goodman: Where was the where was the world?

[33:40] Sarah Goodman: We were in a creepy basement.

[33:42] Kristen Goodman: That's it all.

[33:43] Sarah Goodman: That's what it felt like to me.

[33:44] Kristen Goodman: Yeah, I think one of my last parting thoughts is again about this subject of when it's appropriate to do a revival.

[33:54] Sarah Goodman: And I just think that there's something extra special about the Rogers and Hammerstein canon.

[34:03] Kristen Goodman: And the obviously there were plenty of other shows written during that time frame that didn't make it for one reason or another.

[34:11] Sarah Goodman: And I'm sure there's a lot of reasons that aren't so great about why the Rogers and Hammerstein shows have survived and been so ubiquitous in the musical theater canon, like in the world, why these shows get done over and over again.

[34:26] Kristen Goodman: Like I'm sure there's a lot of bad reasons for why that is the case.

[34:30] Sarah Goodman: But certainly one of the reasons why, in my opinion, they get produced again and again is because they're really, really good.

[34:41] Kristen Goodman: Yeah.

[34:42] Sarah Goodman: And they're really a beautiful representation of the musical theater genre.

[34:51] Kristen Goodman: And they're historically very important for the evolution of the genre.

[34:58] Sarah Goodman: So if you're going to reproduce a Rogers and Hammerstein show, I think like you should with any piece, you should honor what it was trying to do in the first place.

[35:15] Kristen Goodman: And if you have an opinion about that and you want to alter that message in some way to fit your artistic agenda, then do so with strong choices that people can understand.

[35:29] Sarah Goodman: Otherwise, just do the show.

[35:32] Kristen Goodman: Just do the show like it's written.

[35:34] Sarah Goodman: Because there's nothing wrong with that.

[35:37] Kristen Goodman: Yeah, it's kind of like who are you to re-concept this story that makes complete sense on its own?

[35:47] Sarah Goodman: The way it is.

[35:48] Kristen Goodman: And there's like, I don't know, I just feel like there's ways as a director to alter the story or tell the story in a fresh new way that don't completely change the story.

[36:03] Sarah Goodman: And this felt changed.

[36:04] Kristen Goodman: It the ending really felt changed.

[36:07] Sarah Goodman: Right.

[36:07] Kristen Goodman: Because something that traumatic and disturbing happening in the middle of Oklahoma just does not make sense.

[36:15] Sarah Goodman: No.

[36:16] Kristen Goodman: And it w who's calling for this?

[36:20] Sarah Goodman: I seem to recall some story that mom or somebody told us about a production of The Sound of Music that they heard about where they like gunned down the nuns at some point.

[36:29] Kristen Goodman: Yeah.

[36:30] Sarah Goodman: Like also, why?

[36:31] Kristen Goodman: Why?

[36:32] Sarah Goodman: Not necessary.

[36:32] Kristen Goodman: Again, like understand the context, and you don't need.

[36:38] Sarah Goodman: Like the amount of violence in these Rogers and Hammerstein shows is already enough violence.

[36:44] Kristen Goodman: Totally.

[36:45] Sarah Goodman: To get the point of the story across.

[36:47] Kristen Goodman: You don't need to ramp it up.

[36:50] Sarah Goodman: Well, and also like, what are we gaining as an audience by seeing Curly and Lori manically singing Oklahoma with bloody faces?

[36:59] Kristen Goodman: Like what is that supposed to be what com what's the commentary there?

[37:03] Sarah Goodman: What is the subtext there?

[37:07] Kristen Goodman: Because to me, now suddenly they're the villains.

[37:12] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[37:13] Kristen Goodman: Right?

[37:14] Sarah Goodman: Yeah.

[37:15] Kristen Goodman: Well, like you said, it's it must be that Curly is a serial killer.

[37:20] Sarah Goodman: He's secretly a serial killer.

[37:21] Kristen Goodman: Lori and Aunt Eller and the whole town are just uh traumatized.

[37:26] Sarah Goodman: Actually, the whole town's dead.

[37:27] Kristen Goodman: That's why there aren't other actors in the ensemble, because Curly's killed them all.

[37:31] Sarah Goodman: He's murdered, he killed this whole town.

[37:33] Kristen Goodman: The whole town's one of the last ones to get killed.

[37:39] Sarah Goodman: And he's like, every she's like, every night we have to put on our wedding outfits and go murder someone.

[37:45] Kristen Goodman: And then sing Oklahoma, and I'm sick of it.

[37:48] Sarah Goodman: I'm dead inside.

[37:50] Kristen Goodman: Very bizarre.

[37:51] Sarah Goodman: Don't like it.

[37:53] Kristen Goodman: Don't splatter blood on my Rogers and Hammerstein, please.

[37:56] Sarah Goodman: Not like that.

[37:57] Kristen Goodman: Not like that.

[37:58] Sarah Goodman: We got fished.

[38:03] Kristen Goodman: Daniel Fish, if you're out there and listening to the pod, um, and you'd like to chat with us, um, and and let us know what you were thinking with some of these very strong choices.

[38:15] Sarah Goodman: You know, I'd be open to a conversation.

[38:17] Kristen Goodman: That'd be great.

[38:18] Sarah Goodman: I would love to know why you chose to do some of the things you chose to do.

[38:23] Kristen Goodman: And you know, that's the beauty of art, is that uh we don't always have to like it.

[38:29] Sarah Goodman: But I really wanted to like the show today.

[38:33] Kristen Goodman: I thought we were gonna go see a good show.

[38:36] Sarah Goodman: Well, we saw a good movie.

[38:38] Kristen Goodman: We did.

[38:39] Sarah Goodman: When we came home.

[38:41] Kristen Goodman: We did.

[38:42] Sarah Goodman: And we can watch the Munster version if we'd like.

[38:45] Kristen Goodman: Oh.

[38:45] Sarah Goodman: We have a tape of it somewhere.

[38:48] Kristen Goodman: Yeah.

[38:48] Sarah Goodman: I think Gabby digitized it.

[38:50] Kristen Goodman: Way to go, Gab.

[38:51] Sarah Goodman: So we could see our mom, Jenny G playing Laurie, not covered in blood.

[38:57] Kristen Goodman: Thankfully.

[38:59] Sarah Goodman: Um, come to think of it, none of the musicals mom has done.

[39:03] Kristen Goodman: She's had blood on her face.

[39:05] Sarah Goodman: Yeah, everything.

[39:06] Kristen Goodman: Imagine that.

[39:07] Sarah Goodman: Imagine that.

[39:08] Kristen Goodman: We seem to have gotten through an entire Summer Stock series year after year without any blood splatter on any of the protagonists' faces.

[39:18] Sarah Goodman: Uh O K L A H O M A.

[39:28] Kristen Goodman: Yao.

[39:30] Sarah Goodman: Thanks for listening to Good Show.

[39:32] Kristen Goodman: And thanks for following, liking, and leaving a review for the pod on your streaming platform of choice.

[39:37] Sarah Goodman: You can find us on Instagram at Good Show Podcast.

[39:41] Kristen Goodman: Yeah, that's where we post cool archival photos from the original shows, photos of us as kids, info about our upcoming live shows, and so much more.

[39:51] Sarah Goodman: Thanks everybody.

[39:52] Kristen Goodman: Good show.

[39:53] Sarah Goodman: Good show.